Spoilers With Speculation

[catrox14]

To be honest, she looks like she's yawning. LOL But I think it's just squinty eyes.

I'm not really looking forward to this at all now after the crapfest of tonight's episode.

[Binns]

I thought demon eyes!!!

[Demented Daisy]

I love that these last episodes are giving us answers to questions that have been plaguing the fandom for years.  If I didn't know about S12, I would think this was the end.

But I do, so instead, I suspect that season 12 will be a soft reboot.  Back to the beginning, but not literally.  No more Heaven or Hell, angels or demons, God or Amara -- which, sadly, also means no Castiel or Crowley.  I suppose they could be human again, though.

With Mary in the finale, but not John, I wonder if they'll be searching for him again.  Not sure how this new woman fits into it all.

Of course, my spec is usually wildly off.  Metatron did mention it was in need of a reboot....

[Omegamom]

Pics from next week's episode:

http://www.thetvaddict.com/2016/05/12/supernatural-photos-s11e22-we-happy-few/?slide=1

[NoWillToResist]

So, based on MIsha's facial expressions in those pics, I guess Casifer is still a thing for that ep. *sigh*

[catrox14]

I'm seriously starting to worry about Cas' fate.  Look I think Misha has done great work as Lucifer but I need to see more of this:

Edited May 13, 2016 by catrox14

[NoWillToResist]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm seriously starting to worry about Cas' fate.  Look I think Misha has done great work as Lucifer but I need to this more of TFW:

 

What bugs me is that, even though we've had Misha on-screen, we haven't had Cas for ages, and even less Dean/Cas/Sam interaction. If Cas is still possessed in the next ep and it seems like Dean is going to have some kind of send-off in the finale, should I expect that Cas and Dean will reunite for, like, 30 seconds before they're torn apart again? Is that a record?

Jesus fuck. It shouldn't be that hard to integrate your third main character into the story with the two leads. This "keep Cas away from the boys!" trend is beyond tired, IMO.

Edited May 13, 2016 by NoWillToResist

[catrox14]

Just now, NoWillToResist said:

 

What bugs me is that, even though we've had Misha on-screen, we haven't had Cas for ages, and even less Dean/Cas/Sam interaction. If Cas is still possessed in the next ep and it seems like Dean is going to have some kind of send-off in the finale, should I expect that Cas and Dean will reunite for, like, 30 seconds before they're torn apart again? Is that a record?

Seriously. I don't get it. (well, I DO get it but I'm not going there... )

I get they want The Boys back together but come on. Castiel IS Dean's best friend. Give us Dean and Cas doing shit together as Dean and Cas please.

[SueB]

Actual EP 22 Picture thoughts:

- Sure looks like Sam and Dean trying to decide if they should "wake" God as they are standing outside of a room.
- Anyone else think God made pancakes?  Is that cliche for absentee dad?
- Since the morning after Chuck's arrival, Dean's already in the shirt for the finale.  I think things are progressing rapidly.
- It looks like in one of them, Dean and Sam are having a real conversation. I hope this causes Sam to see some of what God is putting into place.
- It looks like they send Dean as an envoy to Crowley to get the demons on board. And Dean (it seems) make have taken away Crowley's drinking glass to get him to play ball.  Makes sense, Crowley still oddly trusts Dean - Sam, not so much. 

 

Big Picture thoughts (for the rest of the season):

- I think God going St Crispin's Day is his way of proving to SAM that he (God) cannot save the day.  God will use all the firepower at his disposal, even making alliances with demons, and it won't be enough.
- I think that God, like Death, understands that the ONLY thing that would stop Dean from doing what has to be done is Sam.  Sam has demonstrated at the end of S10 that he'll put Dean above the safety of the universe.  And the brother's relationship is outstanding.  But if God tried to pitch a Dean sacrifice as the solution, Sam would balk.  It's only after an attempt by God to win the battle fails that Sam would accept Dean being the one who takes the hit.  And if Sammy is okay with it, and Sammy is going to live because of it, then any hesitation on Dean's part is eliminated.  The brothers will be united in the decision.
- So... I think God is playing the boys like a fiddle.  It would be better to just tell them outright but I suspect he thinks they won't listen to words.  They will need to see God fight and fail first.  And God WILL fight, but it's not going to work and he knows that already. So, on the one hand, this playacting is manipulative and underhanded.  People are going to die, or have died, for this little telenova to play out.  OTOH, maybe this IS God's best shot.  Maybe, after undoubtedly being an expert on Sam & Dean 101, God is not taking any chances with them balking.  So... in otherwords, God is lying.  He doesn't have absolute faith in Sam in Dean's choices, he has faith in his own ability to get Sam and Dean to do what He wants.

The real question is to me is whether or not Sam and/pr Dean will see God's machinations and call him out on it. The thousands that died in Lewis, Ohio?  That was IMO, God calling the next prophet -- in order to keep Sam and Dean busy thinking they are running their own lives.  The prophet leads them to Amara (which God knows where's she's at the WHOLE TIME IMO) to rescue Lucifer (who God actually WANTS to be on board but he's playacting reluctance to again give Sam and Dean the illusion of making their own choices). 

And surprisingly, I'm not yet pissed at God about this yet.  Yes, he lied. He's manipulated. He's... Jack Nicholson "on that wall" and we need him on that wall.  Because ULTIMATELY his goal is to save His creation.  He's doing what Sam and Dean wants. He's bought into what Metatron said - humanity deserves to be saved.  Dean's not wrong, and God knows it, God sacrificing himself to her is not going to get the job done.  So God is running them through this passion play (pun intended) so that they will make their own choices to save the universe even though it goes against their instinctual reactions to protect each other. 

 

[catrox14]

42 minutes ago, SueB said:

Maybe, after undoubtedly being an expert on Sam & Dean 101, God is not taking any chances with them balking.  So... in otherwords, God is lying.

 

[snip]He's doing what Sam and Dean wants. He's bought into what Metatron said - humanity deserves to be saved.  Dean's not wrong, and God knows it, God sacrificing himself to her is not going to get the job done.  So God is running them through this passion play (pun intended) so that they will make their own choices to save the universe even though it goes against their instinctual reactions to protect each other

But is Chuck really an expert on Sam and Dean? If he was, he would have known that Dean taking the Mark, becoming a demon etc would have compelled Sam to save Dean thus freeing Amara.  

Unless Chuck wanted Amara released so he could rebuild the world and blame it on her. Or that he wanted to make up for having her locked away. If that's the case, and it's what he wanted all along then yes he did play them like a fiddle.

But it's Chuck so he can claim he always knew what was going to happen whether he did or not.  Chuck's a dick. Just another reason having God as a character is a terrible idea YMMV

Edited May 13, 2016 by catrox14

[SueB]

Just now, catrox14 said:

But is Chuck really an expert on Sam and Dean? If he was, he would have known that Dean taking the Mark, becoming a demon etc would have compelled Sam to save Dean thus freeing Amara.  

Unless Chuck wanted Amara released so he could rebuild the world and blame it on her. Or that he wanted to make up for having her locked away. If that's the case, and it's what he wanted all along then yes he did play them like a fiddle.

But it's Chuck so he can claim he always knew what was going to happen whether he did or not.  Chuck's a dick. Just another reason having God as a character is a terrible idea YMMV

I think he KNEW freeing Amara was a possibility and in his "hiding" mind, he was letting the universe end.  Then Metatron kicked his ass back into gear.  I think that was real, not manipulated.  And so now Chuck is going to do his best to save humanity.  So NOW he's engaged and this is his big move -- get Sam and Dean to save the world -- again. 

I think God being a character is an AWESOME idea.  This is so very fascinating to me.  It's complex, layered, built upon YEARS of story and massive character insight for both of our main characters.  I'm loving every minute. And, I'm okay with a flawed God who was in a funk for a few millennia and now is coming back to taking care of his creation.  Like Cas said last year, in response to Dean's comment regarding mid-life crisis.  "I'm extremely old, I think I'm entitled."  What I LOVED was Dean making it clear that people are not toys, not his playthings.  God is going to have to show more care for the individual IMO.  It's probably too much to hope for that kind of perspective, but that's my hope.  

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, SueB said:

I think God being a character is an AWESOME idea.  This is so very fascinating to me.  It's complex, layered, built upon YEARS of story and massive character insight for both of our main characters.  I'm loving every minute. And, I'm okay with a flawed God who was in a funk for a few millennia and now is coming back to taking care of his creation.  Like Cas said last year, in response to Dean's comment regarding mid-life crisis.  "I'm extremely old, I think I'm entitled."  What I LOVED was Dean making it clear that people are not toys, not his playthings.  God is going to have to show more care for the individual IMO.  It's probably too much to hope for that kind of perspective, but that's my hope.

Yeah, agree to disagree on God being a character :)

I don't think cribbing from past seasons is building on history. It's cribbing and rewriting and retconning for better or worse. I honestly think that's all s11 has been. That said if I get Jensen as Michael for a hot minute I won't mind because I never got it to begin with. JMHO.

I don't like God being a character because it feeds into the whole Author as God meta that I'm not a fan of either and why I don't like Chuck as God.  I did not like Monster at the End of this Book. Didn't much like Meta Fiction. Not a big Fan of Fan Fiction even though I thought it was sweet on many levels. Definitely did not like Don't Call me Shurley. I did like French Mistake because it was an alternate universe which was fun. I liked The End for that reason. God as a nebulous entity that may or may not exist is fine.  Trying to figure out what God does or doesn't want. I'm cool with that.

I think I'm just the odd bird here. Even though  s9 had way too many in your face parallels with guest characters,  I was really pleased with the MoC SL mostly because I was kind of excited at the idea of the Cain and Abel dynamic but the show just wouldn't commit to it. I liked  most of s10 despite too early demon!Dean demise and the stupid ending with the Darkness. Save for a few episodes of s11, I haven't enjoyed it all that much. But I also didn't like most of s5 and only some of s4 so floating in those waters again..does nothing for me.  What can I say but I get that I'm in a dinghy of my own on that point 

I would much prefer the insights into Dean and Sam come from their interactions with other humans and demons and angels. That's fine with me. But God having to give those insights...blah...no thanks.

I suspect part of making God so human and flawed is that they are moving to a 'God is in all of us" thing. The divine inside the human or some such as a flip around of Carver's whole monsters in humans and now the god in all humans.  Meh.

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, SueB said:

- I think God going St Crispin's Day is his way of proving to SAM that he (God) cannot save the day.  God will use all the firepower at his disposal, even making alliances with demons, and it won't be enough.

- I think that God, like Death, understands that the ONLY thing that would stop Dean from doing what has to be done is Sam.  Sam has demonstrated at the end of S10 that he'll put Dean above the safety of the universe.  And the brother's relationship is outstanding.  But if God tried to pitch a Dean sacrifice as the solution, Sam would balk.  It's only after an attempt by God to win the battle fails that Sam would accept Dean being the one who takes the hit.  And if Sammy is okay with it, and Sammy is going to live because of it, then any hesitation on Dean's part is eliminated.  The brothers will be united in the decision.
- So... I think God is playing the boys like a fiddle.  It would be better to just tell them outright but I suspect he thinks they won't listen to words.  They will need to see God fight and fail first.  And God WILL fight, but it's not going to work and he knows that already. So, on the one hand, this playacting is manipulative and underhanded.  People are going to die, or have died, for this little telenova to play out.  OTOH, maybe this IS God's best shot.  Maybe, after undoubtedly being an expert on Sam & Dean 101, God is not taking any chances with them balking.  So... in otherwords, God is lying.  He doesn't have absolute faith in Sam in Dean's choices, he has faith in his own ability to get Sam and Dean to do what He wants.

My worry is that if this kind of thing does happen, where does that leave Sam? At least in season 5 he got to make up for his mistake, even if he had to pay for it with 180+ years in the pit with Lucifer. Which in season 7 he came to accept that he deserved. Ouch. So what's going to happen in this scenario? Dean sacrifices for Sam's mistakes, and Sam has to once again be on the hook for screwing up?

I have been enjoying this season, but if it ends up just being another Sam is the goat situation, I'm going to be annoyed. When is Carver going to let Sam do anything in the mytharc except screw up? Even Castiel got to help save the world in season 9. So far, unless I'm remembering incorrectly, Sam's batting zero - worse since he started an apocalypse.

I don't want to begrudge Dean a Big Damn Hero moment, but at the same time, I'm tired of Sam the screw up.

[SueB]

31 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

My worry is that if this kind of thing does happen, where does that leave Sam? At least in season 5 he got to make up for his mistake, even if he had to pay for it with 180+ years in the pit with Lucifer. Which in season 7 he came to accept that he deserved. Ouch. So what's going to happen in this scenario? Dean sacrifices for Sam's mistakes, and Sam has to once again be on the hook for screwing up?

I have been enjoying this season, but if it ends up just being another Sam is the goat situation, I'm going to be annoyed. When is Carver going to let Sam do anything in the mytharc except screw up? Even Castiel got to help save the world in season 9. So far, unless I'm remembering incorrectly, Sam's batting zero - worse since he started an apocalypse.

I don't want to begrudge Dean a Big Damn Hero moment, but at the same time, I'm tired of Sam the screw up.

I guess I don't see it as Sam being a goat.  I mean Sam was just a Big Damn Hero in the last episode by leading the rescue of Casifer. And despite hundreds of years of torture, recently revisited, Sam handled his verbal battle with Lucifer and got as best of a commitment out of him to behave as one can from Satan.  Then he personally carts the dude out of there.  Big Damn Hero stuff.  So, I suspect we are going to have many more of those events in the next two episodes.

PLUS, I honestly believe this would only work for Sam. Not Dean. I ADORE Dean Winchester. But I don't know if he could make the same choice he did in S5.  He lived that year without Sam and he's worse about it now then he was before that choice.  "It's not in me.", he's admitted in S9.  This year we've seen two Romeo and Juliet moments. I honestly think his PTSD from Sam's hell time was probably worse than his OWN Hell time.  It's how he's wired.  I think he's accepted Sam as an equal, let's Sam take the risks Sam feels he needs to take and has accepted that Sam may die. Dean is fully on board with living up to the family motto: Saving People, Hunting Things.  This is a change from the last few years where the decisions were much more gray.  But if Sam dies, Dean's either going with him or die trying (which accomplishes the same goal). Dean is not suicidal, at least not in my opinion.  But Dean has an instinctual reaction to Sam's death just as powerful as his uncontrolled reaction to Amara.  So... IDK... I think if Sam was the one to pull another Swan Song, Dean would nope out and jump in the hole right after him.  And Sam LOVES his brother, and would do anything for him. But I think Sam would accept that if God himself cannot save Dean, then Sam cannot.  And he would let Dean save the universe.  He'd probably stop hunting or....

Then again... S12 is a coming... and Dean is going to be back... so... I could be wrong.  Sam may do something else after it's all over.    But I think he won't risk the universe again.  And personally, I think Amara will spit Dean back out of her creation on her own.  Because maybe he can't exist there or something.

So... I'm probably not saying it right, but if the situation was reversed, God might try the St Crispin's day approach but he'd probably have to do something else (like lock Dean away in some pocket universe for a few millennium).  So... I don't think it makes EITHER Sam or Dean a goat. I think it's just a recognition that this is who they are.  And even God can't change them.  Their a matched set.  And if he wants their help in solving the problem, he's going to have to work the situation in such a way that they don't balk.  Because not doing what they are told they MUST do is kinda their move. 

Edited May 13, 2016 by SueB

[Aeryn13]

Quote

My worry is that if this kind of thing does happen, where does that leave Sam?

They`ve shown before that that they are not worried about literally ripping off their own stories/episodes so what if Sam got a "wind beneath your wings" part. Like Dean did in the Season 5 Finale. Sure, for me that`s no part at all but you see it differently so would you not find it just as valid for Sam?

Right now I`m trying very hard to squash down any hope of Dean getting the BDH moment in the end. I still have visions of someone else taking it away at the last second. And I just can`t be that disappointed again, I can`t be.

I also think the Finale will pretty much make tabula rase, do away with God, Amara, possibly the angels and demons. Though if need be they`ll find a way to keep on Cas and Crowley. And then no more heaven/hell storylines but something else in Season 12. The "cliffhanger" aka final scene might be this new character Lady Toni Something. 

I`m not convinced either Winchester dies. Or, if they are, that they aren`t immediately resurrected and that story is over and done with, 

Rumours about resurrecting Mary, well, that would be odd to me. Her appearance as a ghost or an entity, sure, but I can not see them bringing her to the show as a regular. Or even having her settle down somewhere. It just would be so awkward. 

Maybe that new Lady Toni IS resurrected Mary in a new body? Yeah, awkward doesn`t even begin to cover it. And the actress just annoyed me in all of her scenes on Vampire Diaries so already not a fan of the casting choice.

Edited May 13, 2016 by Aeryn13

[catrox14]

27 minutes ago, SueB said:

honestly think his PTSD from Sam's hell time was probably worse than his OWN Hell time

I must be getting the wrong end of the stick . Are you saying that Dean was so concerned about Sam's hell time that his OWN PTSD just went away?

Are you saying that you don't think Dean would jump in the pit to save the world?

29 minutes ago, SueB said:

PLUS, I honestly believe this would only work for Sam. Not Dean. I ADORE Dean Winchester. But I don't know if he could make the same choice he did in S5.  He lived that year without Sam and he's worse about it now then he was before that choice. 

[catrox14]

20 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Maybe that new Lady Toni IS resurrected Mary in a new body? Yeah, awkward doesn`t even begin to cover it. And the actress just annoyed me in all of her scenes on Vampire Diaries so already not a fan of the casting choice.

That would be TERRIBLE if they tried to recast Mary. I think fandom would actually 100% agree that would a terrible decision. I don't think that will happen. I mean this isn't Ruby or Meg. If they want younger!Mary bring back Amy Gumenick. Oh man. I just can't with that thought.

[KirkB]

I could see Chuck and Amara either destroying one another or being somehow locked away, and a soft reboot of the show. They might not do away with angels and demons all together. They are still going to need a heaven and a hell for good and bad people to go to. Maybe Cas is in charge of the former and Crowley is in charge of the latter, they just don't have vast armies of angels or demons at their disposal any more. There would still be evil in the world and monsters for Sam and Dean to fight, just no more rogue archangels, unstoppable demons, or world crushing entities, and Supernatural can go to its 12th and final season with the boys back to doing what they do best.

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

I guess I don't see it as Sam being a goat.  I mean Sam was just a Big Damn Hero in the last episode by leading the rescue of Casifer. And despite hundreds of years of torture, recently revisited, Sam handled his verbal battle with Lucifer and got as best of a commitment out of him to behave as one can from Satan.  Then he personally carts the dude out of there.  Big Damn Hero stuff.  So, I suspect we are going to have many more of those events in the next two episodes.

I guess for me, it depends on how helpful Lucifer is. Also Sam's part perhaps seemed a little anticlimactic considering that Metatron did the big sacrifice, Dean did the emotional sacrifice by having to keep it together in the face of Amara to stall, and Chod zapped the Impala to safety. But that's not even the main point. The main point is that Sam let Amara out, and Sam let Lucifer out - which if that is a good thing and helpful to the fight, and as you theorized Chuck did want Lucifer out, then shame on Chuck for implying he didn't want Lucifer out and chastising Sam for it. Because in my opinion, that's just cruel. Sam was so devastated he was almost babbling.

What I mean by the goat is the scapegoat. Chod has made it clear that 1) Amara was Sam's fault and 2) Lucifer getting out was also Sam's fault. So if either Chod or Dean has to be the one to sacrifice to fix the mess, it then appears that the fault for that lies at Sam's feet for his careless decisions - that everyone told him would lead to ruin and he didn't listen (more setting it up as it being Sam's fault) - i.e. he is the goat.

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

They`ve shown before that that they are not worried about literally ripping off their own stories/episodes so what if Sam got a "wind beneath your wings" part. Like Dean did in the Season 5 Finale. Sure, for me that`s no part at all but you see it differently so would you not find it just as valid for Sam?

The difference for me is in who started the mess to begin with. I would be more than fine with Sam having only a "wind beneath my wings" role if Sam wasn't getting the blame (including from the show's God, no less) for starting this apocalypse. The narrative made it extremely clear that what Sam did to save Dean, Dean did not want him to do and told him not to do. Sam did it anyway. Sam started the apocalypse. If Dean now has to sacrifice to clean up Sam's mess, that is not a season 5 rehash but with the roles reversed, in my opinion. That would only be the case if Dean had started - or was shown by the narrative to have a contributing role in starting - the apocalypse. But for me, the narrative didn't go there, or at least downplayed any role Dean might have had in it.

In season 5, it was made clear that that apocalypse also started due to Sam and his "bad choices." I therefore thought it fitting that Sam sacrificed to finish it.

It was the making this apocalypse also Sam's fault that bugs me about the current situation.

[SueB]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I must be getting the wrong end of the stick . Are you saying that Dean was so concerned about Sam's hell time that his OWN PTSD just went away?

Are you saying that you don't think Dean would jump in the pit to save the world?

No, I'm saying that Dean has more PTSD from losing Sam to the Pit than PTSD from his own time in the Pit.  Not that Dean's PTSD from the Pit went away, just that it was a different experience.  Kind of like he explained the difference between pain while being alive versus pain in the the Pit ("Make this stone one and build on it.").  I think he can compartmentalize what happened to him in the Pit more than he can compartmentalize what it was like thinking of Sam in the Pit and then watching Sam going through mental torture after getting his soul back.  It's a combination of different types of pain and also Dean's own messed up sense of self - which will always prioritize Sam's well-being over his own. 

And the other bit: No, I'm not saying that at all.  Dean jumping into a pit to save the world is like every 3rd Wednesday.  I'm saying if Sam goes, Dean goes.  He's not going to be left behind again.

37 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I guess for me, it depends on how helpful Lucifer is. Also Sam's part perhaps seemed a little anticlimactic considering that Metatron did the big sacrifice, Dean did the emotional sacrifice by having to keep it together in the face of Amara to stall, and Chod zapped the Impala to safety. But that's not even the main point. The main point is that Sam let Amara out, and Sam let Lucifer out - which if that is a good thing and helpful to the fight, and as you theorized Chuck did want Lucifer out, then shame on Chuck for implying he didn't want Lucifer out and chastising Sam for it. Because in my opinion, that's just cruel. Sam was so devastated he was almost babbling.

What I mean by the goat is the scapegoat. Chod has made it clear that 1) Amara was Sam's fault and 2) Lucifer getting out was also Sam's fault. So if either Chod or Dean has to be the one to sacrifice to fix the mess, it then appears that the fault for that lies at Sam's feet for his careless decisions - that everyone told him would lead to ruin and he didn't listen (more setting it up as it being Sam's fault) - i.e. he is the goat.

The difference for me is in who started the mess to begin with. I would be more than fine with Sam having only a "wind beneath my wings" role if Sam wasn't getting the blame (including from the show's God, no less) for starting this apocalypse. The narrative made it extremely clear that what Sam did to save Dean, Dean did not want him to do and told him not to do. Sam did it anyway. Sam started the apocalypse. If Dean now has to sacrifice to clean up Sam's mess, that is not a season 5 rehash but with the roles reversed, in my opinion. That would only be the case if Dean had started - or was shown by the narrative to have a contributing role in starting - the apocalypse. But for me, the narrative didn't go there, or at least downplayed any role Dean might have had in it.

In season 5, it was made clear that that apocalypse also started due to Sam and his "bad choices." I therefore thought it fitting that Sam sacrificed to finish it.

It was the making this apocalypse also Sam's fault that bugs me about the current situation.

As for Lucifer getting out: I think that was God just shooting Sam down.  And I thought that he was talking to both regarding that "thank you".  Sam may have rushed the conversation w/ Lucifer but Dean rushed into the temporary cage to protect Sam and took Cas with him.  Sam never said "yes" to Lucifer, that was Cas.  It's REALLY selective logic IMO to put Lucifer's return 100% on Sam.  So IF that was truly God's intent, then it's another manipulation to make Sam feel guilty and get on board with God's directions.  I think God knows Sam will follow Dean before he will follow God. 

God's creation is at stake.  I'm thinking he's being pretty ruthless to get his way. 

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

was the making this apocalypse also Sam's fault that bugs me about the current situation.

Chuck is the ONLY person who said it was all Sam's fault.

But narratively from the beginning, it's been joint fault(even though I don't agree) .

Dean said Amara thanked him for setting her free, Sam said "No, that was me." Dean said 'Does it matter? Lock and key?" meaning both of them. Which really if I think about it is really Dean saying it was him because Dean was the lock and key.

Rowena said, "What new hell has Dean Winchester unleashed upon the world" about the Darkness.

Metatron said it was Sam and Dean Winchester. 

So as far as the fault it's still equal distribution

As for Chod, that's just like, his opinion, man. Doesn't mean he's actually right NOR truthful nor manipulating Sam.

Chod is a lying liar. We already know this because he said Amara warded herself when there is no logic to him saying that. And if she HAD warded herself against him then even going through Cas to get Dean she shouldn't have been able to see that Dean had been in God's presence.

So IMO Chod is being an asshole to Sam about Lucifer for a reason yet to be explained, like Chod being as asshole to Dean about John...

[catrox14]

17 minutes ago, SueB said:

God's creation is at stake.  I'm thinking he's being pretty ruthless to get his way. 

Here's the crazy thing. Chuck has said surf all about the Mark. I don't understand why he hasn't looked at Dean and said, So...why did you do that? It's absence makes me think it's not a done deal.

Shouldn't the Mark still be ON Lucifer. Unless Rowena's spell destroyed the Mark from the universe altogether where did it go? Why does Amara still have it?

Can't Chod just resurrect Cain or tell Dean, sorry brah you're gonna take this Mark again as the 'Chosen One" but I'll try to filter out the bloodlust this time?

I'm still wondering when we find out more about what the Mark can do...that's still got to be on the table. (Jared's spoiler)

Edited May 13, 2016 by catrox14

[SueB]

I TOTALLY think that the Mark is what drives the "connection" and due to the Mark/connection, that's why Dean is going to have to take one for the Team.

It isn't over yet.  God's just getting them into forming a team and trying brute force first.

[Aeryn13]

My spec? The Mark cut off a little peace of Dean`s soul and transferred it to Amara. It feels different for her than the souls she consumed. But the parts want to connect again and be whole. Neither Dean nor Amara know this conscioulsy but that`s why they are drawn to each other.  

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

My spec? The Mark cut off a little peace of Dean`s soul and transferred it to Amara. It feels different for her than the souls she consumed. But the parts want to connect again and be whole. Neither Dean nor Amara know this conscioulsy but that`s why they are drawn to each other.  

I had that same thought a long time ago Aeryn but thought it was no longer in play because of her not sucking out Dean's soul.

[Demented Daisy]

9 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

My spec? The Mark cut off a little peace of Dean`s soul and transferred it to Amara. It feels different for her than the souls she consumed. But the parts want to connect again and be whole. Neither Dean nor Amara know this conscioulsy but that`s why they are drawn to each other.  

*giggle snort*  Have you been reading Harry Potter recently?

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I had that same thought a long time ago Aeryn but thought it was no longer in play because of her not sucking out Dean's soul.

I think then his soul would just be wherever the other consumed souls are within her and that wouldn`t do. She needs his consent or whatever to join with his soul in a different way. I don`t know.  

 

Quote

*giggle snort*  Have you been reading Harry Potter recently?

I saw maybe the first three movies but never read any of the books. Just wasn`t my cup of tea. 

[Demented Daisy]

6 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Quote

*giggle snort*  Have you been reading Harry Potter recently?

I saw maybe the first three movies but never read any of the books. Just wasn`t my cup of tea. 

What you described (a piece of soul breaking off) is a horcurx; a piece of Voldemort's soul broke off and attached to Harry as a baby.  Which means:

• Dean = Harry
• Sam = Hermione
• Castiel = Ron
• Chuck = Dumbledore
• Amara = Voldemort

;-)

For what it's worth, I've been referring to the Mark of Cain as a horcrux since, oh, March of last year?  I wonder (considering Dean was struck by lightning; Harry has a lightning scar on his forehead) if, after the renewal last year, they decided to push the story back a bit so they could have their own Voldemort.  

[Aeryn13]

Voldemort had a soul? I know he started out as a normal guy (I remember that Tom Riddle, half-muggle part, from one of the movies) but I thought he was so evil, he kinda didn`t have one. Go figure. 

So heh, yes, my scenario would be like the inverse. Because Amara, like God, doesn`t have a soul and thus probably couldn`t recognize what having (part of) one compared to eating them feels like. Like on Angel when Darla felt again because the baby inside her had a soul and despite how she didn`t, there was some transference.

[catrox14]

http://cartermatt.com/206019/supernatural-season-11-episode-22-preview-story-jensen-ackles-jared-padalecki-happy/

[Aeryn13]

Jeez, they really had no information to convey in this article. It`s the most rudimentary information, pieced together from the synopsis and the promo. The writer didn`t even bother to dig just a tiny bit deeper. "Is it possible Amara will leave before the final episode?" No, it is not. Which you can easily ascertain from reading the synopsis of the final episode. 

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Jeez, they really had no information to convey in this article. It`s the most rudimentary information, pieced together from the synopsis and the promo. The writer didn`t even bother to dig just a tiny bit deeper. "Is it possible Amara will leave before the final episode?" No, it is not. Which you can easily ascertain from reading the synopsis of the final episode. 

LOL I thought the same thing. I almost didn't bring it over but I thought well, whatever LOL

[Demented Daisy]

43 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Voldemort had a soul? I know he started out as a normal guy (I remember that Tom Riddle, half-muggle part, from one of the movies) but I thought he was so evil, he kinda didn`t have one. Go figure. 

Yep.  He created 6 horcruxes, each a piece of his soul that broke off when he murdered someone.  The 7th piece of soul was still in Voldemort.  Harry was the 8th, the horcrux he never intended to make.  But his soul was so mangled by then that he never realized that piece had broken off.

In fact, the piece of soul inside Harry allowed Harry access to Voldemort's mind and emotions; it created a special connection between them.  Once Voldemort realized that Harry could use the connection against him, he started using occlumency (a magical mental block, essentially) against Harry.

There are a lot of parallels, actually.  The horcrux inside Harry gave him enhanced magical abilities.  Horcruxes can also be housed in inanimate objects.  One was in a locket that, when worn, corrupted the wearer.  Another was in a book.  

Robbie Thompson was responsible for most of the Harry Potter references on the show, IIRC.

[SueB]

10 points for Hufflepuff! (Or are you Gryfindore or Ravenclaw... I forgot)

[catrox14]

Interesting that Dabb as been involved in all episodes in some way. I really wonder now who really was responsible for the early demise of demon!Dean and who wanted demon!Dean. And who ordered the hit on Charlie. Maybe we've been mad at the wrong person all this time LOL. I'm half kidding.

Edited May 14, 2016 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Chuck is the ONLY person who said it was all Sam's fault.

But narratively from the beginning, it's been joint fault(even though I don't agree) .

Dean said Amara thanked him for setting her free, Sam said "No, that was me." Dean said 'Does it matter? Lock and key?" meaning both of them. Which really if I think about it is really Dean saying it was him because Dean was the lock and key.

Rowena said, "What new hell has Dean Winchester unleashed upon the world" about the Darkness.

Metatron said it was Sam and Dean Winchester. 

So as far as the fault it's still equal distribution

As for Chod, that's just like, his opinion, man. Doesn't mean he's actually right NOR truthful nor manipulating Sam.

(For those thinking "Too long; Didn't read," I've highlighted some things in bold giving my main points.)

But Chuck is literally God on the show, so I tend to give his opinion a little more weight. (And Rowena is much less to be trusted than Chod, in my opinion... heh less to be trusted than Metatron and that's a pretty low bar already.) Sadly Dean is also an unreliable narrator, because Dean blames himself for everything. Even Dean admits that, so that's pretty much a given that he's going to try to take some of the blame even if it isn't his fault.

I also disagree that narratively from the beginning it has been joint fault. And the reason is because of the set up. For me, the set up was a lot like season 4. The story went out of the way to make sure that Dean objected, on multiple occasions, to Sam doing anything in regards to removing the mark (Almost exactly like season 4 and Dean objecting to Sam using his powers.) The narrative made sure that Sam lied to Dean in order to get it done (like season 4), involved Dean's friends, who also warned Sam that this was a bad idea (The warning part was similar to season 4, involving his friends was an added turn in season 10), involved Dean's enemies: both Rowen and Crowley. (Ruby stand ins. Dean would've hated that, and what a bad idea anyway.),  and got Charlie killed (The innocent sacrifice for the cause. Not a great nurse Nancy parallel, but still...) All of these things do not point to joint fault for me, because they are big narrative neon signs saying "What Sam is doing is a bad idea!! He is not listening to the warnings and is making bad choices!!" Such cues - to me - are not setting Dean up for part of the blame. That doesn't make sense to me. When someone says "Don't do this!" multiple times and a second person does it anyway, while lying about it, and then bad things happen, to me the blame isn't supposed to go to the first person who said not to do it. Maybe I'm missing something, but to me it makes logical narrative sense that I'm supposed to blame the second person... just like happened with season 4 and Sam getting a majority of the blame for raising Lucifer.

And if the narrative didn't want me to think that Sam was the one they want me to see as being in the wrong, then, in my opinion, they shouldn't have made it parallel season 4 so much where, in the end, most of the blame narratively later on was put on Sam.

3 hours ago, SueB said:

... Sam may have rushed the conversation w/ Lucifer but Dean rushed into the temporary cage to protect Sam and took Cas with him.  Sam never said "yes" to Lucifer, that was Cas.  It's REALLY selective logic IMO to put Lucifer's return 100% on Sam.  So IF that was truly God's intent, then it's another manipulation to make Sam feel guilty and get on board with God's directions.  I think God knows Sam will follow Dean before he will follow God.

I agree with Castiel's part, but the interesting thing for me was again the set up. I thought it was very telling that the narrative made sure to have Sam go into the cage anyway against Dean's wishes when he couldn't get a hold of Dean. The narrative could've had Dean answer the phone and even though Dean couldn't get there, at least begrudgingly agree Sam could go ahead. But instead the narrative made sure that Dean's advice was disregarded and Sam made a wrong decision on his own. It also made sure that Sam told Lucifer that he knew Dean would be coming for him, meaning Sam knew that he would at the least be putting Dean in likely danger from his bad decision.

Both of these things shifted any blame at all away from Dean - even though Dean brought Castiel - and made it more likely that Sam was liable, since had Sam not made that mistake against Dean's wishes and put himself in danger, there would be no reason for Castiel to be in the cage to say "yes." And the chances that either Dean and/or Castiel would leave Sam to his bad decision fate were so low that even Sam told Lucifer that Dean would be coming. In other words, Sam knew Dean would bail him out - which narratively makes what happened much more Sam's fault, in my opinion.

So even though, yes, Castiel was the one to say "yes," the narrative clues left some logic "bread crumbs" that could also place blame with Sam. And, in my opinion, this was not accidental, because the writers chose this progression of events to get to that conclusion instead of any number of other ways it could've happened that wouldn't leave those narrative "bread crumbs" and would instead alleviate Sam's blame.

I understand that miles vary, but I've seen it too many times on this show, so much so that as soon as Sam decided to go to the cage anyway after not getting Dean on the phone, I knew immediately that it was all going to go terribly wrong. And when that kind of thing happens, I pretty much think that the narrative is trying to tell me something. The same thing happened at the end of season 10, when I knew Sam was going to mess everything up. It's like "okay, show, I get it. Sam's going to screw up. Please stop dropping anvils. I've got a headache."

One of these times I think maybe I'll be surprised and it will happen differently, but so far, nope. And for me, that can't be coincidence. Like Dean, I don't believe in coincidences.

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I also disagree that narratively from the beginning it has been joint fault. And the reason is because of the set up. For me, the set up was a lot like season 4

I'm talking about at the beginning of THIS season.They declared it so right out of the gate. Whatever actions Sam or Dean did last year separately were being treated as equal fault. 

In a season where there are literally no innocents, who is truly a reliable narrator?

Castiel was in attack dog mode- He wasn't saying who did what. He was too busy trying to not kill people and not be killed by angels. He told Hannah he would not give up either Sam or Dean who Hannah blamed equally.

Hannah She has no dog in the fight and she wanted Sam and Dean because she blames them equally. - Most reliable? Maybe...

Dean - thinks he's at fault because he took on the Mark in the first place. He's technically not wrong.

Sam -  may not be any more reliable than Dean because Sam fully believed removing the Mark was the best way to save Dean from going demon again and he would do it again. . But he also said that the problem was them BOTH saving each other to the expense of the world. So I dunno on Sam.

Rowena - She blamed Dean..for reasons? Better to blame Dean than admit her culpability by indicting her co-conspirators.

Metatron - If he's truly on the redemption path then he wasn't unreliable in that moment despite being a lying liar.

Chuck -  Self confessed liar. Why is lying Chod anymore reliable than lying Metatron?

Crowley - He actual didn't give a shit who did it as long as he could benefit. Not sure where he stands on the blame game.

I literally can't see who is the reliable narrator.

Maybe Chod is faulting Sam more because Sam prayed to Chod and said it was his fault?

Edited May 14, 2016 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm talking about at the beginning of THIS season.They declared it so right out of the gate. Whatever actions Sam or Dean did last year separately were being treated as equal fault.

And I'm saying that they can say that kind of thing if they want,** but they can't make me unsee season 10.

To me, it's fairly easy. If they want me to see equal blame, then show me equal blame. Don't spend almost an entire season in season 10 showing me anvils that say "This is all going to be Sam's fault!" and then think I'll forget or expect me to pretend that I didn't see them. Multiple times. In multiple and various ways. Enough so that I could predict what was going to happen. I'm not that gullible. I know what I saw, and I've seen it before on this show even - so by following the same formula they showed me before, if they expect me not to come to the same conclusion...  I don't know what to say to that. It doesn't make sense to me.

I suppose I could be seeing parallels where there aren't any, but to me the parallels between season 4 and season 10 are just too numerous (as I outlined)... right down to the same conclusion of Sam accidentally starting an apocalypse at the end. I don't think I'm the first or only one to see the parallels between those seasons. I think many here pointed out the same or similar parallels.

I just wonder what that means for the end of this season, because the set up is showing me a Sam who needs redemption (and a Dean who is getting screwed over), so I'll be a little disappointed if Sam doesn't get it.

** Even though as I hinted at, I don't entirely agree there either, because Chuck is literally show God who knows all, so to me his opinion holds more narrative/writer weight.

[catrox14]

Just now, AwesomO4000 said:

And I'm saying that they can say that kind of thing if they want,** but they can't make me unsee season 10.

I understand that. I can't unsee that Dean is quite literally uninvolved in the removal of the Mark but he's still being held equally accountable. 

Also, I made a long edit if you want to check it out.

[SueB]

Who IS a reliable narrator?  I'd say... Maybe that dog, but he's probably Team Metatron due to the sandwich. 

Seriously though, in topics like 'blame', I'm struggling with finding any true absolutes in these complex equations.   And I'm loving that neither Sam nor Dean are at odds over how the other is acting. 

[AwesomO4000]

44 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

In a season where there are literally no innocents, who is truly a reliable narrator?

Castiel was in attack dog mode- He wasn't saying who did what. He was too busy trying to not kill people and not be killed by angels. He told Hannah he would not give up either Sam or Dean who Hannah blamed equally.

Hannah She has no dog in the fight and she wanted Sam and Dean because she blames them equally. - Most reliable? Maybe...

Dean - thinks he's at fault because he took on the Mark in the first place. He's technically not wrong.

Sam -  may not be any more reliable than Dean because Sam fully believed removing the Mark was the best way to save Dean from going demon again and he would do it again. . But he also said that the problem was them BOTH saving each other to the expense of the world. So I dunno on Sam.

Rowena - She blamed Dean..for reasons? Better to blame Dean than admit her culpability by indicting her co-conspirators.

Metatron - If he's truly on the redemption path then he wasn't unreliable in that moment despite being a lying liar.

Chuck -  Self confessed liar. Why is lying Chod anymore reliable than lying Metatron?

Crowley - He actual didn't give a shit who did it as long as he could benefit. Not sure where he stands on the blame game.

I literally can't see who is the reliable narrator.

Maybe Chod is faulting Sam more because Sam prayed to Chod and said it was his fault?

The main problem with Hanna is how much did she really know about the Amara situation? And remember Hannah cared about Castiel who she watched go through a rough period risking himself while he was trying to save Dean from being a demon, so she has her own annoyed feelings about Dean.

And Sam - I didn't take Sam as blaming Dean for Amara. I took what Sam said as Sam generalizing the entire situation that lead them to that point - in other words including the whole shebang starting from the Gadreel situation... or maybe even the not closing the gates to hell incident where he and Dean really started to choose each other over the goal of saving people, hunting things. And I can see that line of thought, because Sam I think really does learn from Dean, and after the mess in the beginning of season 8, Sam might feel a conscious or unconscious pull to think of Dean first now so as not to make that mistake again (which is what I think Lucifer told him later). And so things like Dean's plea to not close the gates and the Gadreel situation might've made a lasting impression on Sam's behavior, too. And that's how I interpreted Sam's words there: as a generalization of how he and Dean had been operating as of late as compared to how they used to operate (since if I remember correctly, Sam even mentioned the past). As for Amara specifically, I thought that Sam entirely blamed himself there as indicated by his prayer to God where he only mentioned himself as causing the mess.

 

I get your point about none of the narrators being truly reliable here, though.

My main reason for thinking that Chuck is the most likely one of the bunch, though, is because he is Chuck, and he's been the literal writer narrator/mouthpiece in the past. And he is now also show God - who knows everything. If the show writers wanted to include Dean here definitively, they could've had Chod mention Dean taking the mark in the first place, but since Chod didn't, I tend to think He/they don't find taking the mark as much of a factor in what happened. Just as Chod didn't think Dean being a demon was anything to worry about either, somewhat dismissing Metatron's inclusion of Dean in the cause. Kind of ehn, "but Dean was just a demon. That wasn't really that much of a problem in terms of world endangerment - that was on Sam." Which kind of also in a way potentially dismisses Sam's whole "oh, no, Dean being a demon and/or having the mark is bad. I must fix Dean no matter what," argument retroactively - which kinda ouch, Chod/writers. Dean having the mark kind of looked bad to me, but okay, if you say so...

Now, true, Chod could be lying or twisting things for his own purposes just like all of the rest of the narrators here, but the fact that his opinion also seems to parallel what the narrative in season 10 seemed to be showing me - anviliciously - all along, to me, is kind of hard to write off. Basically: season 10 anvils + Chod, the show narrator, blaming Sam now = me saying "yeah, okay, I get it already. This again? I guess this is going to be brought up over the next 5 seasons now. *sigh*"

55 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I understand that. I can't unsee that Dean is quite literally uninvolved in the removal of the Mark but he's still being held equally accountable. 

If it makes you feel any better, I don't see Dean as being held equally accountable. That probably doesn't help though : / ... I'll see myself out now.

Quote

Also, I made a long edit if you want to check it out.

I did! You had some interesting points - see above.

7 minutes ago, SueB said:

Who IS a reliable narrator?  I'd say... Maybe that dog, but he's probably Team Metatron due to the sandwich. 

Hee. True. Dogs can definitely be swayed with food.

Quote

And I'm loving that neither Sam nor Dean are at odds over how the other is acting.

So am I. That part is awesome.

Now, if only Sam and Dean could catch a break... I mean seriously.

[SueB]

3 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

....in other words including the whole shebang starting from the Gadreel situation... or maybe even the not closing the gates to hell incident 

... (Trim)

My main reason for thinking that Chuck is the most likely one of the bunch, though, is because he is Chuck, and he's been the literal writer narrator/mouthpiece in the past. 

I still place the 'start' at the beginning of S8 when they decided to pull a big lever (close the gates of Hell)

 

Chuck threw an awful lot of shade at Dean last episode... For being an overbearing big brother and having no faith in God. Honestly, despite the 'thanks for that' comment, Sam got a lot less general shit from Chuck.  Plus between the showers, singing, the robe, and Dean's computer, I swear he was either trying to irrirate Dean or role play as Chuck-the-grounded-person.

Quote

Now, if only Sam and Dean could catch a break... I mean seriously.

To quote Dean, what show have you been watching?

Edited May 14, 2016 by SueB

[Demented Daisy]

10 hours ago, SueB said:

10 points for Hufflepuff! (Or are you Gryfindore or Ravenclaw... I forgot)

Ravenclaw.  Sycamore wand with a phoenix feather core, 10 and a half inches, surprisingly springy.  I got two Outstandings and one Exceeds Expectations on the W.O.M.B.A.T. (Wizards' Ordinary Magic and Basic Aptitude Test).

In other words, before I started watching SPN, I devoted most of my time to studying and trying to unravel the mysteries of the Harry Potter universe.

[AwesomO4000]

7 hours ago, SueB said:

I still place the 'start' at the beginning of S8 when they decided to pull a big lever (close the gates of Hell)

This is true, but at least the goal of closing the gates of hell fell into the "saving people, (sort of) hunting things" category. It was definitely over ambitious and probably not something in retrospect that Sam and Dean should've taken on on their own initiative only, but I don't think it was the kind of thing Sam was referencing in his "we've forgotten about the saving people" spiel. (Since I think closing the gates would've qualified as a "saving all the people" thing.)

I took a more detailed discussion of that conversation over to the "Out of the Darkness" episode thread. (Spoiler: the conversation was even more Sam blaming himself than I had remembered it.)

[catrox14]

So...there is a report rolling around Tumblr from Jared's M&G at Asylum has Jared saying this finale is the saddest they have ever had. meep.

[MysteryGuest]

I'm still thinking the finale is going to be just one long goodbye from Dean. He agrees to sacrifice himself to save humanity, and we get to watch all the emotional angst as he says goodbye to Sam and Cas.  And if they truly do throw Mary's ghost in there for some reason, that will just add to it.  We know that someone is going to die, and my bet's on Dean.

[Omegamom]

Aw shit.  That means Cas dies or God dies or Dean goes into the Empty...what other possibilities?

And we've got this new person (Lady Whatsername) being thrown into the mix at the last minute.  ??

[MysteryGuest]

God dying wouldn't be sad to me, because SPN's version of God is just annoying.  So unless he shows himself to be something other than what we've seen so far, I won't miss him.  If it's going to truly be a sad episode, then one of the main characters has to die, or at least be presumed dead or headed for the Empty.  

Based on what we've been told all along about Amara's wish for Dean, I have to assume the ending will have something to do with that.

[Binns]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

So...there is a report rolling around Tumblr from Jared's M&G at Asylum has Jared saying this finale is the saddest they have ever had. meep.

*twitches* I'm SO WORRIED for Dean. Only thing keeping me going is S12.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Omegamom said:

Aw shit.  That means Cas dies or God dies or Dean goes into the Empty...what other possibilities?

And we've got this new person (Lady Whatsername) being thrown into the mix at the last minute.  ??

I was thinking about Lady Whathersname (which no matter if I ever know her name I will forever call "Lady Whatshername" so thanks Omegamom!)
 

WILD ASS SPEC of the DAY:

Her being from "across the pond" and being Lady Whatshername on the surface, seems like another Bela but since it's being said she has something in common with the boys. Aside from the obvious long lost Campbell or Winchester what else might it be?  On the surface her description seems like someone out of place in the SPN world other than as a one off character but she's said to be recurring. We know the show really doesn't seem to want to give the boys girlfriends or boyfriends so I don't think she'll be a love interest.  I'm thinking maybe she's a vampire that knew Benny.

I know we all hated Bloodlines (written by Dabb) but I am less convinced TPTB hated it in total. Dabb wrote it, but I still maintain the network had a lot of influence over it's tone which is why it had such a TVD/Originals vibe.

The Vampires Diaries is ending next season but it and the Originals have been decent performers and appeals to an audience that all the superhero stuff doesn't. Could CW-PTB be angling for an actual SPN/TVD crossover event before TVD ends next season?  Or maybe they bring in this actress from TVD and the guy from Bloodlines that is currently in The Originals for another spinoff attempt to keep the TVD audience watching the CW once it ends?

I know it's way out there and I am probably totally wrong but the CW is doing crossovers with all the DC verse and Fox managed a crossover between Bones and Sleepy Hollow which as it turns out was really paving the way for a soft reboot of SH(Oh my bittercakes are stacked high covered with all the fuck you, SH-TPB over those shenanigans).

Just some thinky thoughts.

Edited May 14, 2016 by catrox14