Spoilers With Speculation

[Aeryn13]

 

ETA  That is... a poorly written headline.  ;-)

 

Hey, maybe it`s a charity event "for missing hikers". Where the money given goes into buying equipment and new ranger uniforms and so on. Ahem.

 

Or it`s a philosophical/political question "are you for or against missing hikers?" I mean, surely if they are missing it`s their own damn fault for going hiking in the first place.   

Edited March 24, 2016 by Aeryn13

[DittyDotDot]

Promo and promo photos for Red Meat.

 

http://www.spoilertv.com/2016/03/supernatural-episode-1117-red-meat-promo.html

 

ETA  That is... a poorly written headline.  ;-)

 

 

Bwah, ha hahahahahahah!!! Sorry, my day job inserting itself right now.

 

BTW, not so much funny, but that's a poorly designed front page, too!

Edited March 24, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[SueB]

Brought over from the scheduling thread

http://www.thefutoncritic.com/showatch/supernatural/listings/
 
date (day)  time  network  episode title
5/25/16 (We.) 9:00 PM The CW Episode 23
5/18/16 (We.) 9:00 PM The CW Episode 22
5/11/16 (We.) 9:00 PM The CW Episode 21
5/4/16 (We.) 9:00 PM The CW Episode 20
4/27/16 (We.) 9:00 PM The CW Episode 19
4/20/16 (We.) 9:00 PM The CW Repeat TBA ®
4/13/16 (We.) 9:00 PM The CW (#1114) The Vessel ®
4/6/16 (We.) 9:00 PM The CW (#1118) Hell's Angel
 
So here's the schedule for the rest of the season.
I bet we are getting cliffhangered  with Hell's Angel. Two week break and then back to on 4/27 with 11.19 through 23.

Interesting that The Vessel is one of the repeats. To me, they get to choose WHICH episode airs and so that means the plot of The Vessel is important.  And it was literally only two episodes ago.   I'd reckon the God's Hand thing OR the sacrifice aspect or both.  I really loved that episode. The other tbd I'm not sure. I'd bet either nothing or go back to The Devil in the Details.  Which would be oddly out of order. 

 

And yes, it fits past behavior to have a group of 5 to bring momentum to the finish. 

 

I totally expect Hell's Angel to be a cliff-hanger.  I'm hoping we get more insight into Cas' thinking in that episode*. 

 

 

So... let's review the bidding again on what's left:

 

30 Mar:  EP "18" now back to "17"- "Red Meat " - Nina Lopez-Cervado director - writerBerens/Dabb -  - airs tbd - filming started Jan 26th  (filmed BEFORE EP 17)  The lonely Jensen in a hospital bed may be here. See note in EP17

 

6 April: EP 17 now back to "18" - "Hell's Angel" - Phil Sgriccia director - writes Buckner-Lemming- THIS MUST HAVE AMARA IN IT (based on Jensen's comment) - filming started 5 Feb (filmed AFTER EP 18) also note, this coincides with when 'lonely Jensen' was trolling us from a set hospital bed while Jared was drinking in AustinAirdate 

-- Although I would like to note that Jensen is wearing the red shirt in Red Meat AND there are hospital scenes.

 

13 Apr: The Vessel

 

20 Apr: TBD Repeat

 

27 Apr: EP 19 - "The Chitters"- Eduardo Sanchez (Blair Witch director) - filming started Feb 18th. I also think this will be a very scary episode. Either this or EP20 has the sulfer and industrial spot with a Sam/Cas scene.  I'd bet EP20 but I'm not sure. Note: Title from SpoilerTV.  Given the director, this title already scares the poop out of me. I'm thinking scarabs. 

 

6 May: EP 20 - "TBA" - Robert Singer director, Robbie Thompson** writer - this is the one with Rob Benedict (aka Chuck and/or God depending on your POV) - finished filming I think

 

• May 11th: EP 21 -  Thomas J. Wright** directing (his THIRD this year), Robert Berens** writer.

 

• May 18th: EP 22 - John Badham directing.  Buckner-Lemming** writers. This is his THIRD outing this year (I think).

 

• May 25th: EP 23 - Phil Scriggia** directing, Andrew Dabb** writer

 

*I've got a M&G with Misha (as well as Jensen, Jared, and Mark) on 2 & 3 April.  I'm bummed Hell's Angel is after because I think that will be a BIG DEAL episode.  Still, I'll have to craft my question to Misha such as to get SOME intel that would work after.  Misha apparently usually takes people on a walk so I don't know if I'll even get a question in. 

 

** These names come from this source: http://supernatural.wikia.com/wiki/Season_11

I don't know their reliability.  What I CAN say is that if Carver is off running his new pilot then he may have taken Jenny Klein (noticeably absent from the list). Charmelo and Snyder are also missing.   Scriggia/Dabb make sense for the finale, given Andrew's status as Head Writer and Scriggia as the new "Bob Singer".  I also think I hear something about Thomas Wright directing again so this data does track.  

Edited March 25, 2016 by SueB

[Demented Daisy]

27 Apr: EP 19 - "The Chitters"- Eduardo Sanchez (Blair Witch director) - filming started Feb 18th. I also think this will be a very scary episode. Either this or EP20 has the sulfer and industrial spot with a Sam/Cas scene.  I'd bet EP20 but I'm not sure. Note: Title from SpoilerTV.  Given the director, this title already scares the poop out of me. I'm thinking scarabs. 

 

 

When I saw the title, I immediately thought of chiggers.  Nasty little bugs.  If it is about bugs (Didn't they learn their lesson last time?  ;-)), then I'm not surprised they changed it to "chitters".  

[DittyDotDot]

 

When I saw the title, I immediately thought of chiggers.  Nasty little bugs.  If it is about bugs (Didn't they learn their lesson last time?  ;-)), then I'm not surprised they changed it to "chitters".  

 

Heh, your reaction makes much more sense than mine. I immediately saw people standing in a dark corner "chittering" (making bird-like noises). I must be having a literal Friday.

 

BTW, isn't chitter also a slang term for ass... ? ;)

[catrox14]

According to Merriam Webster and Dictionary.com

 

chitter is a chattering sound.

or a twitter(HA) or chirping sound .

 

So I'm thinking

-- monsters or bugs that make an incessant chirping or chattering sound cicadas or locust invasion(biblical much?)

-- A human constantly hearing a chitter that drives said human insane and makes them do things. i. e. they have a case of the chitters like Dean only hearing the banshee and being compelled to bash his own head against the wall :(

-- The Chitters is a family name and it's a "The Benders" type episode wherein The Chitters do despicable things to other people?

Edited March 25, 2016 by catrox14

[Demented Daisy]

Oh, I forgot.  After chiggers, the next thing that occurred to me was Critters.  You know, these guys:

 

[Myrelle]

IMDb has Berens writing 11.22, Buckner/Leming writing 18 and 21, and Nancy Won penning 19.

[SueB]

Breakdown of the promo:

http://m.imgur.com/a/KGpuJ

And now we wait for the mini-Hellatus to pass.

Bringing back this post because now that Safe House has aired, we can look at the scenes which have already played out and what is left to come. This was posted on Feb 25th. EP18 "Hell's Angel" finished filming on Feb 22nd.  Says to me that those scenes not yet aired are from "Red Meat" and "Hell's Angel's".

 

Also of note: Jared's filming date for Gilmore Girls was Feb 19th (during the filming of Hell's Angel).It was a one-day event but still, there might have been SOME impact to his SPN schedule.

 

So, breaking down the bits:

1st two pics: Same as in "Red Meat" promo -- so it's for EP17

3rd Amara in the fog

4th-9th: looks like a werewolf melee to me (in the cabin in the woods) - guessing EP18

10th Sam and Dean on a roof (and Sam looks completely FINE)

11th likely view from the roof going up into the sky

12th Amara fog walking

13 date

14 Crowley

15 Sam and Dean approaching Crowley

16 Amara flexing her power

17-18 Safe House

19-20 Crowley getting smashed by Lucifer in a Nick suit (I think)

21 Looks like Casifer talking to Dean (the ear gives Jensen away)

22-28 Safe House

29-30 Red glow face on boys, boys are in "roof" clothing

31 Boom wall

32-33 Amara closeup

 

So...using ClothingINT (Clothing Intelligence) for the boys:

Dean in the Red Shirt and Sam in the White & Brown checked shirt is Red Meat

Dean in a blue checked, Sam in a red & black checked shirt is Hell's Angel

 

The first thing I notice is that Sam looks FINE after getting shot.  Which means someone gave him Supernatural healing or much time has passed since Red Meat and Hell's Angel.  Now if Jared was gone for a while due to Gilmore Girls, then "passage of time" might work. But he was only filming one day.  They could shoot around that I think.  And it's awfully late in the season for a time jump. Plus that was apparently a mortal wound with Billy showing up to Reap Sam. Still, they had hospital shots (and lonely Jensen was in the red shirt in his tweet) BUT... it seemed more like the hospital was in some sort of terror situation versus healing.  So, I'm going with: Sam is supernaturally healed. 

 

Now, who are our candidates for laying on of hands:

1) Amara - she luv's Dean and would want to help him if he was distressed. BUT, she's tossed Sam around before. And, most importantly, it doesn't seem she's IN this episode.She's not listed as guest cast (although they could be saving that as a surprise). So I give her a LOW probability.

2) Cas - currently occupied by Lucifer - and not listed for this episode. I give this a ZERO probability.

3) Casifer - I think he wants Sam dead at this point, I'm going to give this a NEXT to ZERO probability.

3) Random Angel - they really don't like the Winchesters still. I give this a NEXT to ZERO probability.

which leaves me with:

4) Billy. Who wants Sam dead and in the Empty. BUT is also a pragmatic individual.  Now we know reapers CAN in fact heal.  Tessa (while possessed by Azazel) healed Dean waaaaaayyy back in EP2.1.  They are a form of Angel.  Now add in shots from the 11x17 promo.  We have Billy making her pronouncement that she's "here to reap you" to Sam.  There is a bulletin board behind her.  I'd lay good odds that Dean got Sam to a hospital and this scene takes place IN the hospital.  We've also got pictures of beat-up Dean and beat-up (but not obviously SHOT) Sam fighting in the hospital.  Which leads me to suspect that the sequence is:

-- Sam & Dean investigate the Cabin in the Woods. It goes pear-shaped and Sam gets shot.

-- Dean gets Sam to a hospital (after trying to get several people to safety based on the write-up).

-- Billy shows up to reap.

-- Billy HEALS Sam (see WHY below)

-- Sam and Dean fight the monster that chased them thru the woods and into the hospital.

 

So WHY would Billy heal Sam?  Well, the Dean's voice-over that is in the multi-episode preview is also the voice over for the specific 11.17 preview.  So this means that Dean says these words in EP17 (Red Meat).  In context then, it could be Dean is trying to convince Billy that Sam is needed to kill Amara because Dean can't do it.  But Billy REALLY wants Sam (and Dean) DEAD and in the Empty.  So here's the theory:

- Either Billy is actually swayed by Dean's words OR Dean (or Sam) makes a DEAL with Billy.  The latter seems more likely. Reapers have notoriously not given a shit about the latest Apocalypse.  And Billy has an ax to grind.  Which says to me, she doesn't just patch up Sam because Dean is making a good point.  She GETS something out of it.  Billy is not a money or material kind of gal.  She's more of a power-player.

- So what could Dean (or Sam) offer. What does she want?  Well, she wants them DEAD.  So... maybe Dean offers her a two-for-one deal.  Spare Sam for now and you can have us BOTH when Amara is dead. 

 

What does everyone else think?  

1) Is Sam likely supernaturally healed?

2) Is it Billy?

3) If Billy, WHY would Billy heal Sam?

 

Enquiring minds want to know.....

[catrox14]

Sooooo....

 

Some thinky thoughts on this.

 

Given all the wibbley wobbley timey wimey stuff, pocket universes, sigils, references to Time after Time (with Rufus' bottle of Scotch) where in Dean had to send a message to Sam via the note in the Wall to help him get Dean back to the future. IMO all of that is going to play into either getting rid of Amara OR  it's something that has been existing throughout the season already ***

 

 

Specs:

 

--The Empty is a pocket universe that exists out of space and time.  I think that is where Death/"Death" was going to send Dean. Maybe Death sent himself into a pocket universe right before Dean scythed him and that's why death still exists and Dean didn't become Death and Billie still has a job but more to do than before. 

 

-- I think Amara was locked away in a pocket universe maybe even the Empty. She had the original sigil of the Mark of Cain, so to put her back into the pocket universe, Dean will have to take on the Mark again and kill her with the First Blade. But since Cas is the only person that knows where it is, he has to get Cas out of Lucifer or convince Casifer to tell him where it is. Lucifer may or may not want to help Dean because I'm not sure what he wants out of Amara being locked away.  I don't think he'll fulfill his word about defeating Amara. JMHO. 

 

Anwyay, Sam and Dean will both need a sigil tattoo to get Dean out of the Empty/pocket universe. They may even have to share the Mark.  Or Sam gets something different 

 

***Wild Ass Specs of the Day:

--The Darkness Vortex is the Empty and is a pocket universe. So Dean and Amara in the Darkness Vortex was the end in the beginning. It was the in media res opening not just for the episode but for the entire season.

 

--Dean and/or Sam are already in that pocket universe and someone put them there to protect them and all of this is Dean and Sam crossing back and forth.

 

--Dean and/or Sam are already out of space and time throughout or at least part of the time and trying to find their way back. Heck maybe the Dean and Sam's are alternate versions of themselves like Bobby and Dean in Safe House(although I'm not really thinking that's the case but including it just because)

 

 

As an aside, I've mentioned several times that there is something "rotten in Denmark" about this season. I've been working on a YUGE spec about this season that I started back in December but didn't really get back to completing and I sort of stopped because of grief, depression, holiday depression. It's  WIP. My last update was December 11 (My mom's Bday).
 

It's kind of a rambling mess which is probably why I never finished it. LOL . I should probably do that before the finale.  

[catrox14]

I'm not so sure 11.17 is going to be as straightforward as Sam being shot, and Dean making a deal with Billy. I mean honestly if Dean makes a deal to save Sam's life doesn't that kind of mean he's going against what Sam has been preaching about ALL season? 

 

Also, Billie promised them both they are going to the Empty. If Billie breaks her promise to reap their asses into the Empty then she loses her power with them and pisses off all the other Reapers that want them gone. So I think she IS going to do something to Sam

 

It seems like the yellow/amber glowy thing is new this season.  It happened when Lucifer possessed Cas and I don't remember it happening any other time.  But I could be wrong about but if I'm not then maybe Casifer saves Sam for ...reasons. 

 

IMO, Amara would only save Sam's life if Dean offers himself TO her. All she wants is to be joined with Dean for ...reasons. If she intervenes to help Sam then it's only because Sam will be of use to her to get Dean to do her bidding.  She might take Sam's soul into her because she thinks the souls are safe inside her but she'll still manipulate Dean with Sam because Sam is his weakspot.

Edited March 27, 2016 by catrox14

[ILoveReading]

 

I'm not so sure 11.17 is going to be as straightforward as Sam being shot, and Dean making a deal with Billy.

 

I really hope so too.  I remember Jensen tweeting a pic of what looked like Dean in a hospital bed, so either Jensen was trolling us or there is more to the ep.  A cool twist would be if in the process of saving Sam, Dean gets bit by a werewolf so while Sam has a major injury Dean's is actually far more deadly.

 

I'm going to be so disappointed if they go down the Dean makes a deal route.  I don't need to see Dean being given any more lectures from St. Sam. 

 

I'm also going to be so disappointed if Lucifer saves Sam.   Everything with Lucifer is so been there done that and next week still looks like a big Lucifer/Cas ep.  I'm still waiting for a Dean centered ep.

 

  The Amara storyline has been pretty much back-burnered since the premier. I'd like to see that get some focus.  Its getting to the point where I just want to scoff at the so-called bond because its pretty non-existent.   There has been no interaction between Dean and Amara since ep 9 and Amara didn't even seem to care that it was Cas that showed up instead of Dean.    What happened to "We'll never let any harm come to each other."  Seems like the writers forgot about it or dropped it.   The scene at the end of Safe House feel flat because Dean doesn't seem like he's drawn to Amara any more than she is to him.   if you really want to freak Dean out, he should have seen Amara in the nest.  Sam was obvious.  It shows that he feels that draw even if he doesn't want it. 

 

If Im supposed to belief they are connected I need to start seeing it on screen.   Not just words.  They need to start showing little things, like Dean zoning out, or him having dreams of Amara.  Show me that they feel a  pull.  

 

What I'd like to see from this ep is Amara have some hand in saving Sam and/or Dean without Dean asking.  Show her trying to get on Dean's good side. If she saves Sam, Dean is going to feel some gratitude toward her which might make him more vulnerable to whatever plans she has on him.

 

 

 

 

[SueB]

I don't think it would be a deal so much as a stall for time.  Like...okay, you win, but let us finish THIS job.  IDK.  I just don't see how Sam is walking and talking like normal in the next episode if he's mortally shot in this one without Supernatural intervention.

 

Specs:

 

--The Empty is a pocket universe that exists out of space and time.  I think that is where Death/"Death" was going to send Dean. Maybe Death sent himself into a pocket universe right before Dean scythed him and that's why death still exists and Dean didn't become Death and Billie still has a job but more to do than before. 

 

I think you are right that The Empty is out of time and space and "pocket universe" works for me too.  I also agree this may be where Amara was.  In sum, they didn't introduce the temporal anomaly just for nostalgia sake. As you are suggesting, it's relevant to mytharc closure.  

[catrox14]

 

We'll never let any harm come to each other.

 

 I think it's her own survival at stake. They will always help each other because they are bound. Not because she cares about him. IMO Dean is nothing more than a means to an end for her and she needs him alive.  I'm also fairly well convinced that she can't kill him without killing herself and vice versa.

[SueB]

 I think it's her own survival at stake. They will always help each other because they are bound. Not because she cares about him. IMO Dean is nothing more than a means to an end for her and she needs him alive.  I'm also fairly well convinced that she can't kill him without killing herself and vice versa.

 

I SERIOUSLY thought about Amara. Especially with the blowing-up bit and her walking through the fog.  And I agree on her motivation.  But what gave me pause was Billy likely being IN the hospital and Sam fighting after he gets there.  Sam looks pretty messed up in the previews but then "messed up but not-shot-messed-up" in the fight scene.  

[catrox14]

 

3 minutes ago

I don't think it would be a deal so much as a stall for time.  Like...okay, you win, but let us finish THIS job.  IDK.  I just don't see how Sam is walking and talking like normal in the next episode if he's mortally shot in this one without Supernatural intervention.

 

I don't think the glowy thing happens until the end of 11.17 and we get cliff hangered. Resolution may not happen until 11.18 in Hell's Angel which leads to another cliffhanger for the mini- Hellatus.

 

Dean's monologue/voice over thing really bugged me. It was SOOOO dramatic and stilted. IMO Dean doesn't ever sound that way and it reminded me of pocket!universe!Dean talking to Sam the Darkness. It was just way weird to me. I wonder if it's not some cut dialogue from the that scene. It just didn't sound like actual!Dean to me at all. YMMV

[catrox14]

 

e was Billy likely being IN the hospital and Sam fighting after he gets there.

 

I was actually thinking that might be a  flashback to when Sam met Billie in the hospital in 11.01/11.02.  Heck that could be Billie talking to anyone not named Sam or Dean.

 

As we know the CW promo monkeys SUCK. So I don't  necessarily think what we are seeing in that promo is what we are going to necessarily see (or hear) in 11.17 including the voice over from Dean. There have been snippets in the promos that we never see in the aired episode at all, i.e.demon!Dean walking through the smoke in Reichenbach.  I've learned to just not trust what CW promo monkeys present to us.

[Demented Daisy]

 I think it's her own survival at stake. They will always help each other because they are bound. Not because she cares about him. IMO Dean is nothing more than a means to an end for her and she needs him alive.  I'm also fairly well convinced that she can't kill him without killing herself and vice versa.

 

They may have since changed their minds, but at the beginning of the season, that was not the case:

 

What does it mean for Supernatural‘s Dean that he and The Darkness are bound? What plans does Amara/Darkness have for him? Can one be killed without hurting the other? –DeMara

 

One can definitely be injured without affecting the other. “It’s not like a voodoo doll” (or “twinsies,” as Jared Padalecki jokes) “or anything like that,” star Jensen Ackles clarifies. “We will see… what exactly that relationship is” between Dean and The Darkness, Ackles adds. “I don’t think that he knows what to make of it. What it all means and how it’s all going to tie into his destiny and his future and what that means for the brothers, he’s very nervous about. Obviously, those nerves are something that he’s going to be hiding, but we will see it get fleshed out a bit.”

 

 

http://tvline.com/2015/10/29/arrow-season-4-felicitys-mother-returns-spoilers/

[catrox14]

They may have since changed their minds, but at the beginning of the season, that was not the case:

 

Yep, I know.  I read those same interviews which where given back October 2015 when the season had just started.

 

s10 was being sold as the Year of the Deanmon....but NOPE that's done in 3 episodes.

 

Sam was supposed to have done some kind of truly heinous horrible things to find Dean ...and meh I didn't think it was all that serious. JMHO

 

s11 Carver implied that the Darkness was going to be the evilest evil to ever evil.....don't think that has been the case thus far.

 

Jensen said that he thought the connection to Amara was desire at first but then he said that really didn't make sense to him even though it was what the writers implied at the beginning of the season. And now it's textually 'Not desire or love" if it ever was.

 

It was implied that Sam was getting visions from God, but that turned out to be Lucifer.

 

Jensen said the brothers were free of things and banding to together to fight for the common good...and right away Dean and Sam are at odds about saving all the people. They are at odds over Sam's visions and Dean is annoyed that Sam is praying. Dean has an uncontrollable connection to Amara and Sam is having visions, neither of which sound very "together" or "free", in my opinion.

 

 

A lot of things are said in the spin cycle at the beginning of the season which may never come to fruition and/or become less true as the season progresses. And some things that are NEVER hinted about at all happen by the end of the season.  I've finally accepted that what is spun in interviews at the beginning of the season doesn't always QUITE match with what happens on screen in the end. For better and worse.

 

 

Amara/The Darkness is supposed to be  God's sister, an entity who causes blood lust in Dean and Cain and turned Lucifer to the Dark side, and turned Dean into a murderer; who is so dangerous that God and the archangels had to lock her away.  If all that is true then what is the point of Dean being attached to her if it doesn't end with Dean killing her by sacrificing himself or having Sam kill him, if there is no action attached to Dean's attachment to her, then it is a pointless arc and serves no purpose other than Dean being a plot device. Unless it's for Dean's character development...which I dunno...what that would do for him either. I mean he has no control and can't kill her.  Bah.....

[SueB]

A couple of quibbles:

- Year of the Deanmon is the CW Promo monkeys -- I don't count them

- Sam and Dean are closer than ever IMO, Dean was reluctant to talk about Amara but Sam had already figured it out and wasn't pissed about it

- Sam getting messages from God was a spin mis-lead to fake out the audience versus a change of heart.

[catrox14]

A couple of quibbles:

- Year of the Deanmon is the CW Promo monkeys -- I don't count them

- Sam and Dean are closer than ever IMO, Dean was reluctant to talk about Amara but Sam had already figured it out and wasn't pissed about it

- Sam getting messages from God was a spin mis-lead to fake out the audience versus a change of heart.

 

 

1) I have a recollection that prior to the season Carver was trying to sell it that way too.  

 

2) Perhaps we just have differing opinions on what "closer than ever" reflects.  

 

I sure didn't see it at the beginning of the season which is what I was referring to. It was being sold at comic con that the boys would have some bumps in the road but they would be on the same page. I don't really see how they could be on the same page, when they were not even telling each other things they should have been telling each other.

 

-- Dean did not disclose the weird blank outs he was having re Amara and his attachment to her. He does get points for telling Sam he saw her..so there's that.

-- Sam did not disclose to Dean he was infected when Dean should have had that information

-- Sam did not disclose he was having visions and flashbacks to the cage nor that they were from God until Baby. 

-- Even after Sam did tell Dean about it, Dean was definitely not on board and was angry with Sam for believing it was God talking to him.

 They had a common goal of defeating the Darkness and fixing what they broke but to me that is not being on the same page, much less agreeing on how to accomplish it and definitely not 'closer than ever', IMHO.

-- Sam ran off without waiting for Dean when he went to the Cage. Dean didn't tell him he was zapped off with Amara. I'm not even sure Dean has ever told him about that.  Does anyone know?

 

 

3) The God visions were a misdirect.  Jared also said later that he was surprised that Sam went to the Cage in the mid Season finale.  Make of that what you will but I took that as something he hadn't expected.

 

From that same interview spoiler article.

 

 

Supernatural‘s Sam and the Reaper — is there more to this story? –JJ

Interestingly, Dean will also be meeting Billie the reaper (played by Lisa Berry), in the fall finale. “To be honest… we have not shot those scenes yet, so I don’t know how intense it’s going to be,” Jensen Ackles said on set last week. “But I’m excited to work with her.”

 

This didn't quite pan out to be all that exciting at all and actually super frustrating for this viewer.  Was this Jensen spinning because he already knew it wasn't going to be much of an interaction at all or did something change along the way?  

[Demented Daisy]

This didn't quite pan out to be all that exciting at all and actually super frustrating for this viewer.  Was this Jensen spinning because he already knew it wasn't going to be much of an interaction at all or did something change along the way?  

 

Or there's a deleted scene we haven't seen yet.

[Binns]

I was actually thinking that might be a flashback to when Sam met Billie in the hospital in 11.01/11.02. Heck that could be Billie talking to anyone not named Sam or Dean.

As we know the CW promo monkeys SUCK. So I don't necessarily think what we are seeing in that promo is what we are going to necessarily see (or hear) in 11.17 including the voice over from Dean. There have been snippets in the promos that we never see in the aired episode at all, i.e.demon!Dean walking through the smoke in Reichenbach. I've learned to just not trust what CW promo monkeys present to us.

I don't know about promo monkeys bc this is my first time watching live but my first thought watching that promo was "flashback/misdirection."

[SueB]

So bad news from Creation, apparently they object to Lynn from Fangasm putting ANYTHING about the M&G's on her blog so no news from there out of the last two conventions.

 

BTW Ruth Connell had to change her schedule for the DCCon this weekend because she's FILMING.  FILMING what? Is the question.  I so hope it's Supernatural.  I'd love for her to be back in some capacity.

 

In other news, look for DM's from me after this weekend.

[catrox14]

So bad news from Creation, apparently they object to Lynn from Fangasm putting ANYTHING about the M&G's on her blog so no news from there out of the last two conventions.

BTW Ruth Connell had to change her schedule for the DCCon this weekend because she's FILMING. FILMING what? Is the question. I so hope it's Supernatural. I'd love for her to be back in some capacity.

In other news, look for DM's from me after this weekend.

Wait, what? She's been doing those summaries for years, so why the clamping down now? That's weird. I'm side-eying Creation hard on that one.

[DittyDotDot]

They've had a long-standing rule about the Meet and Greets being something special between the attendees and the guest. I guess they're just now getting around to enforcing the rule?

[Aeryn13]

You can still find pretty much every tidbit from Meet & Greets on tumblr as well as the entire panels on youtube. Spoiler-wise, usually nothing much comes out of either these days.  

[catrox14]

I'm well aware of that rule yet they've let it go for years. And I find it especially weird for someone like Lynn who is well known and has written books about the show and the cons. In many ways she's been excellent PR for Creation cons as I've read some less than flattering commentary about Creation that do not leave Creation in the best light but her stuff is generally positive. I wonder what's next? Clamping down on videos and telling Richard to stop encouraging fans to video?

[Aeryn13]

 

And I find it especially weird for someone like Lynn who is well known

 

I think that was actually the problem. Like I said, you can still find all this stuff and it won`t be too hard either but Creation is not gonna check all of tumblr and twitter for the odd M&G tidbit or something. In comparism the fangasm blog is really easy to find, they advertize themselves quite a lot and the summaries still were very detailed so if Creation wanted to put their foot down, it was in a place like this.  

 

 

and telling Richard to stop encouraging fans to video?

 

Maybe they have done so in private but obviously they cherish his appearances as a guest and host so this is a matter of what they want more. If J2 started encouraging videotaping, it`s not like Creation would threaten to disinvite, they are the breadmakers of those events. The fangasm folks are not.  

Edited March 29, 2016 by Aeryn13

[DittyDotDot]

I'm well aware of that rule yet they've let it go for years. And I find it especially weird for someone like Lynn who is well known and has written books about the show and the cons. In many ways she's been excellent PR for Creation cons as I've read some less than flattering commentary about Creation that do not leave Creation in the best light but her stuff is generally positive. I wonder what's next? Clamping down on videos and telling Richard to stop encouraging fans to video?

 

Perhaps it's because Lynn is so visible is why they're using her as and example? I mean, it's not like they can really clamp down on everything that gets posted anonymously to the internet, but Lynn has a blog with her name attached to it and is known for doing this. I'm sure to Creation, her continuing to not follow the rule just sets an example that it's not really a rule that need be followed.

 

I'm not saying I agree with the rule, just that it's is a rule that one knows when they buy the ticket, so I just can't get worked up about it being enforced, myself. I doubt they will stop the videoing in the larger panels, though.

[catrox14]

 

Perhaps it's because Lynn is so visible is why they're using her as and example? I mean, it's not like they can really clamp down on everything that gets posted anonymously to the internet, but Lynn has a blog with her name attached to it and is known for doing this. I'm sure to Creation, her continuing to not follow the rule just sets an example that it's not really a rule that need be followed.

 

 

I understand how the m&g's work. I understand they are an expensive privilege.

 

I'm just puzzling over the why shut her down now.  Creation had to know she was posting tidbits all along. Now the question is whether they ever tried to shut her down before and she just ignored them OR they never cared before and it became tacit approval or at least tacit non-disapproval of her postings.  She also seemed to be pretty judicious in what she posted being pretty careful to not post spoilers that I've seen.

 

I'm wondering if another fan posted tidbits with less discernment and was chastised by Creation so they responded "Well, Lynn from Fangasm does it".  so they shut her down too.   I mean otherwise why shut her down now? It's just really curious to me.

[DittyDotDot]

Well, like I said, she's someone visible they can make an example of. Little Suzie-No-Name who posts to tumbler about her con experience maybe once a year wouldn't really make as much noise as someone who goes to multiple cons and is known in the fandom.

 

I would guess they are trying to make a statement without having to actually police every single site on the internet.

Edited March 29, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

And here is Lynn's post about the whole thing which I had not read before I commented.

 

https://fangasmthebook.wordpress.com/2016/03/28/rolling-the-dice-at-supernatural-vegascon 

 

Interesting read...and not quite what I was thinking but not too far off either.  Hmmm....

 

It does raise an interesting question about who really "owns" the information disclosed in a m&g. I can see the point of not wanting spoilers to get out but then isn't that kind of on the actor to not disclose the spoiler at all if they don't want it getting out.  I can see the point that if someone paid big money for special info, then they kind of "own" that info and can do with it what they want. 

 

Short of making the buyer of the m&g sign a  non-disclosure agreement they can't really police it. Fans will talk to each other and then something gets out but because it's all word of mouth who knows how it gets changed.

 

I think Fangasm has proven they are reliable, judicious and fair.  

 

It also sounds like it's quite a money thing with Creation to.  I think they are shooting themselves in the foot with this though.

Edited March 29, 2016 by catrox14

[Demented Daisy]

Total spec here, so take it with a grain of salt.

 

Lynn has made money.  Plain and simple.

[catrox14]

I did a little more digging and it looks like this is a rule CHANGE not enforcing rules that already existed.

 

Previously Creation said no transcribing and no recording. but writeups were permitted. And now they are saying that is no longer to be allowed. 

 

 

Total spec here, so take it with a grain of salt.

 

Lynn has made money.  Plain and simple.

 

I'm not sure what you're implying here but it's well know that she and her writing partner make bank on their books about fandom.  I'm sure her con writeups got people to her page and then she probably got some ad revenue and book sales out of those writeups.  But I don't understand what any of that has to do with Creation shutting down the dissemination of information they previously allowed.

[Demented Daisy]

I'm not implying anything, I'm flat-out saying it.  She made money off the info that she got from their conventions and they don't like it.

 

But like I said, total spec.

 

ETA  Companies don't like it when people make money off their products.  It's why Anne Rice has tried to eliminate fan fiction of her works.  It's why Disney went after a day care for an unauthorized mural.  It's why Marvel sends cease-and-desist orders for fan-made videos.

 

Maybe she's made too much money and that's why they changed the rules.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Demented Daisy

[DittyDotDot]

If I remember right, when the rule for the write ups only was instituted a couple years ago, it was at the request of the panelists. They felt these were supposed to private meetings with fans and more off the cuff than the big "official" panels.

 

But, yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if they're now changing the rules because it's not just fans talking at the water cooler anymore, but people writing books and making money off these encounters.

[catrox14]

I'm not implying anything, I'm flat-out saying it.  She made money off the info that she got from their conventions and they don't like it.

 

But like I said, total spec.

 

ETA  Companies don't like it when people make money off their products.  It's why Anne Rice has tried to eliminate fan fiction of her works.  It's why Disney went after a day care for an unauthorized mural.  It's why Marvel sends cease-and-desist orders for fan-made videos.

 

Maybe she's made too much money and that's why they changed the rules.

That's a bit of apples and oranges though.

Anne Rice thought the fanfiction writers were violating copyright and her intellectual property.

I don't see what original intellectual property or copyrights Creation is making that Fangasm would be violating or taking advantage of.

AFAIK Creation earns money from panels, photo ops, meet and greets and whatever cuts they get from Creation Stands and vendors. All intellectual property would be Supernatural, and the artist creating the work.

Fangasm ladies write about the fan experience and things AFTER the fact. We don't know what they don't tell us and I don't think they tell us everything. So we don't know what we don't know, you know?

Cast members have written chapters for their books and yes I'm sure they get paid, but I don't think they would lend their names and words if they had a huge problem with the Fangasm gals writing about them and fandom in general.

I've never been to a con so I'm on the outside looking in but I can't see how this is going to help Creation.

I would never have known there was such a thing as a "Meet and Greet" with an actor at a convention if not for the Fangasm reports. They made them seem quite intriguing and fun. If I had thousands of dollars to drop on a con, I would probably buy a M&G based on their reports.

IMO this looks to be an attempt to drive M&G sales to an elite group which is a much smaller amount of con goers than the general masses. But hey, if Creation prefers smaller numbers knowing about how fun and enjoyable M&Gs are and the overall con experience from a fairly trusted source..well...okay then. I don't get it.

[Aeryn13]

 

IMO this looks to be an attempt to drive M&G sales to an elite group which is a much smaller amount of con goers than the general masses.

 

Unless European Cons where M&G are done via lottery to give everyone a chance, Creation holds silent auctions for those. Meaning it already caters to a small elite. And pretty much always the same crowd bar a newbie here and there. The average con goer just can`t blow nearly two-thousand additional dollars on half an hour with a main guest which is what these things go for. They are still always sold out so I don`t think they need advertisement for it. 

[catrox14]

Unless European Cons where M&G are done via lottery to give everyone a chance, Creation holds silent auctions for those. Meaning it already caters to a small elite. And pretty much always the same crowd bar a newbie here and there. The average con goer just can`t blow nearly two-thousand additional dollars on half an hour with a main guest which is what these things go for. They are still always sold out so I don`t think they need advertisement for it. 

 

Oh I know it's already elite. I'm saying they want the more occasional  big spenders, not only the regulars. 

 

I do think the tidbits the unwashed masses get from the Fangasm ladies leaves me with a far more overall positive view of the entire con experience without it feeling like they are saying "neener neener"  and I have read a couple of other reports by others which come across to me as being ....elitist...for lack of a better word, yet I never get that vibe from the Fangasm reports in general.

 

Anyway...cie la vie. 

[auntvi]

2 fucking thousand dollars??!!  On top of the Gold Panels, photos and autographs!  I'll never have that kind of money to throw around, so there's some jealousy in my reaction, but that's just an obscene amount of money.

 

 

[Demented Daisy]

Oh I know it's already elite. I'm saying they want the more occasional  big spenders, not only the regulars. 

 

I do think the tidbits the unwashed masses get from the Fangasm ladies leaves me with a far more overall positive view of the entire con experience without it feeling like they are saying "neener neener"  and I have read a couple of other reports by others which come across to me as being ....elitist...for lack of a better word, yet I never get that vibe from the Fangasm reports in general.

 

Anyway...cie la vie. 

 

 

I think you mean "c'est la vie".

 

Anyway, Lynn made money off info she received at Creation events, did she not?  She made money by writing about her experiences at Creation events, yes?  It's got nothing to do with "intellectual property" and everything to do with someone making money off their hard work.

 

As someone who has organized a (very small) convention for a minor sports star 20 years ago, I assure you it is very, very hard work.  I gotta say, I would have been pissed if someone attended that convention, wrote a book about it, and made a decent chunk of change.  But maybe that's just me.

[Aeryn13]

 

2 fucking thousand dollars??!!  On top of the Gold Panels, photos and autographs!

 

If you throw in airfare and accomodations, it can be easily 2000 plus "just" for the Con weekend. And anything but Gold tickets just lessens the experience considerably. I`m usually pretty spendy at Cons but forking over double for a single Meet & Greet exceeds the limits of what I`m willing to do. I like the lottery system much better. That way, a Jensen M&G once cost me one shiny British pound. And I usually never win anything. 

 

 

I assure you it is very, very hard work.  I gotta say, I would have been pissed if someone attended that convention, wrote a book about it, and made a decent chunk of change.  But maybe that's just me.

 

I once went to a Con where the organizer pretty much made off with the money and the staff and volunteers ended up paying for guests` lunch etc. The attendeeds didn`t realize it much while the weekend went on but Jesus, the amount of work that went into keeping things going was monumental. 

 

Now Creation, I do believe they are pretty greedy but it`s their Cons and I don`t believe that request to stop detailed write-ups is really out of line. 

[MysteryGuest]

I'm always shocked when I see the cost of going to one of these things.  Even if it's in your backyard, the price for autographs, photo ops, etc. are ridiculous.  The cons make up a good portion of the annual salaries for the actors, so you can see why they attend them all.  I know people like to think it's because they just want to be with their fans, but I'm betting it's pretty much all about the money.  The guys are certainly accommodating to the fans, which is nice, but they're earning a nice paycheck for their trouble.

[catrox14]

I think you mean "c'est la vie".

 

 

Sigh. French is not my first language...but at least my I didn't spell it SAY LA VEE 

 

 

I think you mean "c'est la vie".

 

Anyway, Lynn made money off info she received at Creation events, did she not?  She made money by writing about her experiences at Creation events, yes?  It's got nothing to do with "intellectual property" and everything to do with someone making money off their hard work.

 

As someone who has organized a (very small) convention for a minor sports star 20 years ago, I assure you it is very, very hard work.  I gotta say, I would have been pissed if someone attended that convention, wrote a book about it, and made a decent chunk of change.  But maybe that's just me.

 

Creation is making money off the hard work of the actors, showrunners, writers, production team that created the show in the first place. There is no SPN con without SPN. Creation makes money from a bunch of other shows too.

 

All the people that create and sell t-shirts, jewelry, artwork and other wares which based off the show are also making money from the ongoing hard work of those that created the show in the first place. Are they not doing the same thing as the Fangasm ladies? The only thing that is different is the product they are selling.  The Fangasm ladies are selling the Supernatural fandom experience which includes the conventions.

 

I would  argue that the Fangasm books had a positive impact on fandom by celebrating fandom which IMO encourages said fans  in general to embrace that and then attend conventions and do their fanart and write their fanfiction. 

 

To me it's a big symbiotic relationship between the show, the cons, and those that create and sell things which are all born of the hard work that created the show in the first place.

[DittyDotDot]

Creation is making money off the hard work of the actors, showrunners, writers, production team that created the show in the first place. There is no SPN con without SPN. Creation makes money from a bunch of other shows too.

 

I'm betting Creation pays the studio for the use of the Supernatural name. Which, in theory, means everyone is getting a piece of the action. It's not all blue sky to put these things on, there is a cost on the part of Creation, too.

Edited March 30, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

I'm betting Creation pays the studio for the use of the Supernatural name. Which, in theory, means everyone is getting a piece of the action. It's not all blue sky to put these things on, there is a cost on the part of Creation, too.

 

Wasn't suggesting it was blue sky for Creation.  Same goes for the vendors, the fan artists, the Fangasm ladies, whoever is making and selling anything based off the show has a cost of doing business. Some costs are higher than others. 

[SueB]

Wow... I missed a lot.  Let me weigh in a tad.

 

On Fangasm book vs Lynn's Con attendance: Having read the books and chatted with Lynn, the books are a labor of love and I'm pretty sure she's selling them to pay for her convention habit.  She's not rolling in the dough. They've been a positive experience for most and she's a vendor at the conventions.  I don't think there's any enmity with Creation due to her books.

 

On Lynn being singled out for reporting:  She's been playing by the rules "no transcriptions" and just putting out personal recollections and perspective.  Creation indicated it was other M&G members complaining that they paid for a unique experience. That's possible.  It's HORRIBLE IMO because it makes it an elitist experience.  With Lynn sharing her impressions, we got a little bit of insight that gave a positive view of primarily J2 (as that's the M&G's she attends).  But if it truly was a audience member complaining, I'm side-eyeing Creation for listening to THIS particular complaint.  They get complaints on just about everything. Some deserved, some maybe not.  Which leads me to believe it's a financial motivation for Creation.  Which frankly, I'm puzzled about.  Is it that they are trying to jack up the M&G prices for J2?  Misha's are out of control ($1410.56 for DCCon).  J2's are $300-$500 usually.  Misha has 10 people for 45 min, J2 is 20 for 30 mins.  So.. perhaps they want to get J2 prices up too.  That's about all I got. Otherwise I think it just bring enmity towards Creation from fans. 

 

On the outrageous prices:  As I said, Misha's is the only one that IMO is out of control.  And he has nothing to do with it.  This is fans bidding against fans and Creation just benefits.  I mentioned to Jane (the person who runs the auctions) that maybe he should expand to 20 so more can get in. She said it was up to the guest. When I told her I was going to mention it to Misha, she sounded a little miffed.  Made me feel like perhaps Creation LIKES the feeding frenzy over his appearance and don't want his prices to go down.  All I know is that having met the man precisely once, I don't think he's remotely greedy. Like, at all.  And if there was a way to make it better, he would do it. 

 

On the information shared by the guests: It's definitely an "off the record" experience.  I think they don't mind us personally sharing with friends but if it showed up on Buzzfeed they would be pissed.  Like the policy on this board "don't be a dick" is pretty much all the guidance one needs on how to behave and what to share.  Lynn has ALWAYS been polite and supportive.  I'm 100% convinced the actors have no issue with her (or Jared wouldn't be writing a chapter for her next book).

 

My personal POV: I'm lucky I can splurge and go to both the cons and the M&G's.  I want to share (1 on 1, of course) with any SPN fan because my good fortune should be everyone's good fortune.  Obviously I would not share anything personal or private. Just show related.  So... it pisses me off that this gag order is out there.  I don't want to be one of "them". One of the "elite".  No thank you.  If anything, the gag order makes me want to stop going because it makes me uncomfortable.  When I could tell people, then it felt like I was getting something for everyone because I was sharing it.  Now it feels icky. 

 

Bottom Line for the TL:DR: Lynn's a great person who provides a lot of joy for fandom (and is not rolling in the dough because of it). I'm personally bummed this happened.

On a more pleasant topic.  Some Tweet-fu:

 

 

 

I think Ruth is in Vancouver filming Supernatural. Makes me very happy.

Edited March 30, 2016 by SueB

[catrox14]

 

I think Ruth is in Vancouver filming Supernatural. Makes me very happy.

 

Not to be all Debbie Downer, but I thought Mark lived in L.A.?

Edited March 30, 2016 by catrox14

[SueB]

Not to be all Debbie Downer, but I thought Mark lived in L.A.?

Usually, but I think he's in Vancouver for filming.  When he left a convention it was to fly back to Vancouver where his wife was in labor (if memory serves).