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Spoilers With Speculation

SueB

By SueB
in Supernatural

ohjoy
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Please keep your speculation and comments on the end of Supernatural in the Supernatural Ending topic. Use this topic here or the Bitter Speculation topic for discussion of the upcoming season only. As always, keep Bitch vs. Jerk discussion in its own topic.

Thank you.

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AwesomO4000

AwesomO4000

Thanks Omegamom.

 

I'm kind of wary about most of that information. I liked Sam's "no" to Lucifer. I don't want him to waver later and wonder if Lucifer is making sense, and "take certain positions coming up that might diverge from his brother." That usually doesn't end well for Sam.

 

I also hope that Sam gets something interesting to do while Dean is aboard the submarine.

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PeterKahlke
PeterKahlke

NEXT ON SUPERNATURAL Sam and Dean search for the yellow-eyed thing that killed their mom.

devlin
devlin

I don’t care who JA is going to be playing. I could seriously watch this guy read the phone book and be completely enthralled. I am just looking forward to some powerhouse acting full of nuances by wh

gonzosgirrl
gonzosgirrl

So, so over it. You're a big boy - if you don't agree, put up or shut your judgey piehole.

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NoWillToResist

NoWillToResist

(edited)

 

1) Why Lucifer was willing to accept Cas as his vessel rather than just straight up killing Cas and Dean and taking Sam anyway.

 

Well, Lucifer still needs permission, right? And since Sam keeps saying 'no', I think being in Cas' body is the next safest place.

 

IMO, Dean won't want to hurt/kill Cas just to get to Lucifer and I suspect Lucifer knows that. Fuck, every creature on Earth, in Heaven, Hell and Purgatory knows about the Dean/Cas bond, so I can't fathom how Lucifer would be out of that loop. :)

 

Besides, since he's pretending to be Cas, maybe Lucifer thinks he can use Cas to influence Sam into saying yes, just like he seems to be warming Dean up to the idea of being bait for Amara....

Edited by NoWillToResist
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catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

 

Well, Lucifer still needs permission, right? And since Sam keeps saying 'no', I think being in Cas' body is the next safest place.

 

Yes, he technically needs permission but that's not even free will permission as we saw with the coercion, torture and trickery in the past, which Lucifer was on his way to doing.  I've always wondered what really stops them from possessing a human without permission.  I mean what would be the penalty? Would they just not be ABLE to do it, or do they get struck down by God or burn up, or what?

 

Besides, since he's pretending to be Cas, maybe Lucifer thinks he can use Cas to influence Sam into saying yes, just like he seems to be warming Dean up to the idea of being bait for Amara..

 

Yeah, I mentioned way back that I think this is Lucifer's ultimate goal, is possessing Sam.

 

But I would think the moment that Casifer even suggests it to Dean, Dean would probably punch him and IMO that would be a clue to Dean that Cas isn't Cas. So I think Casifer will go straight to Sam and avoid Dean altogether. 

..

Edited by catrox14
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catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

So, next week's promo.  Dean has a hickey?? Who has he been making out with? Did he hook up at Donnie's bar? Did he make a side trip to Hibbing, MN??? Did he hook up with Donna??

 

I swear to Gods it better not be Amara (I'm mostly kidding...I think)

 

Also, why is Dean not calling it "Unattached Drifter's Christmas" - /GASSSSSSPPPP. 

Edited by catrox14
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Aeryn13

Aeryn13

Well, that Carver interview coupled with something I read from Jensen`s last M&G over on tumblr pretty much sealed the deal.

 

Sam only said "no" in the mid-Season Finale and Cas housed Lucifer to get Lucifer out and have Cas be his interims-vessel. The endgame is for Sam to say "yes" in the Finale. Only, this time, once again, it will be a good thing. For he will defeat Amara and then Lucifer by sheer willpower again.

 

Dean will navel-gaze, then tell Sam the secret and tell him, Sam, that Sam will have to take the lead. Meaning, Dean will be an inactive participant. Oh, I`m sure he`ll be made to swing the pom-poms for Sam again. Maybe wash his cape or something.

 

I was actually not really that pessimistic about the prospects for Dean`s story in the second half of the Season and Finale. But Carver sure set me straight. Suck Song 2.0. This time, see how we can make it worse.

 

If this is the end of the show or even close to the end, it will just feel like a giant waste of time to me. Why was Dean`s character created if every showrunner only wanted Samnatural? Oh I know, the network rejected Kripke`s original treatment of a single-lead show and he was forced to default to the brother stuff.      

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SueB

SueB

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From Winchester Family Business:http://www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/spoilers/19719-cw-official-press-release-for-supernatural-episode-11-15

 

SUPERNATURAL
    “Beyond the Mat” — (9:00-10:00 p.m. ET)

    WWE CHAMPION MIKE “THE MIZ” MIZANIN GUEST STARS – Dean (Jensen Ackles) sees an obituary notice for a wrestler he and Sam (Jared Padalecki) used to watch when they were kids. Deciding they need a break from tracking the Darkness, the brothers decide to attend the funeral to pay their respects. The funeral is full of wrestlers, including Shawn Harley (guest star Mike “The Miz” Mizanin), a hot shot new wrestler with a fiery temper who pushes everyone’s buttons, and veteran wrestler Gunner Lawless (guest star Aleks Paunovic). Sam and Dean attend the next match to re-live one of their fondest childhood memories but when another wrestler turns up dead, play time quickly turns to work. Jerry Wanek directed the episode written by John Bring & Andrew Dabb (#1115). Original airdate 2/24/16.

 

 

Has Jerry directed before?  I'm looking forward to that.

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catrox14

catrox14

 

Deciding they need a break from tracking the Darkness,

 

 

Well as  long they decide to just not look for her....

 

COME ON SHOW.  At least with Jodi they had legitimate reason to not be on the case. .I mean why didn't they just have a lead on Amara be where this wrestling thing was happening. I know I know it's just a description but man it makes them look stupid. And I'm sure it won't have any negative consequences at all..

 

/head desk

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NoWillToResist

NoWillToResist

Yes, he technically needs permission but that's not even free will permission as we saw with the coercion, torture and trickery in the past, which Lucifer was on his way to doing.  I've always wondered what really stops them from possessing a human without permission.  I mean what would be the penalty? Would they just not be ABLE to do it, or do they get struck down by God or burn up, or what?

 

 

Yeah, I mentioned way back that I think this is Lucifer's ultimate goal, is possessing Sam.

 

But I would think the moment that Casifer even suggests it to Dean, Dean would probably punch him and IMO that would be a clue to Dean that Cas isn't Cas. So I think Casifer will go straight to Sam and avoid Dean altogether. 

..

 

I would presume that angels actually CAN'T possess the vessel without (questionable) consent. Otherwise, in the past, when the stakes have been high, I'd have trouble believing that there weren't SOME angels willing to sacrifice themselves for the greater good.

 

I myself am very interested to know what will finally tip Dean and Sam off that Cas isn't himself. Or will they only realize because Crowley escapes and TELLS them? That would be very disappointing, IMO.

 

It would make my heart feel good if Lucifer kind of fucks up and suggests something which Dean just KNOWS Cas would never go for. Cas will do many things to achieve the end goal, but putting Dean or Sam in danger has never, to my recollection, been one of those things.

 

I mean, Dean, Mr I'm Worth Nothing, showed in the crypt scene that he's aware of how much he means to Cas and that Cas would never want to hurt/kill him. So, if "Cas" suggests putting Dean in Amara's path and Dean doesn't think WTF, I will be very annoyed.

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Demented Daisy

Demented Daisy

I would presume that angels actually CAN'T possess the vessel without (questionable) consent. Otherwise, in the past, when the stakes have been high, I'd have trouble believing that there weren't SOME angels willing to sacrifice themselves for the greater good.

 

I myself am very interested to know what will finally tip Dean and Sam off that Cas isn't himself. Or will they only realize because Crowley escapes and TELLS them? That would be very disappointing, IMO.

 

It would make my heart feel good if Lucifer kind of fucks up and suggests something which Dean just KNOWS Cas would never go for. Cas will do many things to achieve the end goal, but putting Dean or Sam in danger has never, to my recollection, been one of those things.

 

Didn't he tear down the wall in Sam's head to stop them from getting in his way at the end of season 6?  (Before he took in the souls/Leviathan.)

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NoWillToResist

NoWillToResist

(edited)

Didn't he tear down the wall in Sam's head to stop them from getting in his way at the end of season 6?  (Before he took in the souls/Leviathan.)

 

Ah, Season 6. ;)

 

If I'm not mistaken though, the choices were "leave Sam to be crazy for a while or have the Winchesters stop me and everyone on the planet dies thanks to Raphael".

 

So, between 'Sam is kinda crazy' or 'everyone, including Sam and Dean, will die'...Cas picking the former still holds true to his motto, IMO. :D

 

Crazy but alive or sane but dead. Not the best options, but one is less crappy...

Edited by NoWillToResist
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Demented Daisy

Demented Daisy

Except that Cas knew exactly what tearing down that wall would do to Sam.  He's the one who told Dean not to put Sam's soul back in him because it "felt like it had been flayed alive" is, I believe, how Cas described it.  It could have killed Sam, which is why he promised to heal Sam after it was all over -- if they stayed out of his way.

 

Regardless, he put Sam in danger, IMO.

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Aeryn13

Aeryn13

That description actually sounds better than I imagined for this ep after learning about the wrestling theme. And yes, it is gonna be another filler episode with a flimsy excuse on how the current apocalyptic threat is ignored but that has happened through all the Seasons, maybe bar Season 4.  

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DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

(edited)

I'm wondering why Amara was sickly and woozy after she branded Cas with her warning/promise.

 

I thought she was just weakened from the angel smiting. I took away that Amara wasn't all-powerful and with a little more juice, that plan the angels had might have actually worked. She probably just needs to go suck a few more souls and get powered back up. Bet she's regretting not taking Dean's soul now...

 

I've always wondered what really stops them from possessing a human without permission.  I mean what would be the penalty? Would they just not be ABLE to do it, or do they get struck down by God or burn up, or what?

 

Well considering that Sam was able to eject Gadreel, I assume they just can't stay if the host doesn't want them. Like there has to be a continual acceptance from the host. That's probably why both Lucifer and Gadreel locked Sam in some fantasy world. Yeah, good luck figuring out the consistency on that one, though.

 

Has Jerry directed before?  I'm looking forward to that.

 

Yes, he directed The Slice Girls in S7 and Captives in S9! I mostly remember because he was in that featurette Directing the Supernatural a couple years back. I think it's quite a challenge to work the schedule just right in order for him to direct--much like it is for Jensen--that's probably why he only gets one every two years. Anyway, both episodes had their moments...should be interesting! 

 

But, what I want to know is...

 

Who is John Bring? Has he written or co-written anything before?

 

That was my first question too so I looked him up. Looks like he's got a string of "Production Assistant" credits for other shows and is credited as a writer's assistant for two other Supernatural episodes in S9--I Think I'm Gonna Like It Here and Devil May Care--but no other writing credits I saw. So he's been around the show for a couple years. I think that's how Jenny Kline started writing on the show, too. Interesting.

 

I like new blood, but not sure if he is all that fresh, though. ;)

Edited by DittyDotDot
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catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

 

Well considering that Sam was able to eject Gadreel, I assume they just can't stay if the host doesn't want them. Like there has to be a continual acceptance from the host. That's probably why both Lucifer and Gadreel locked Sam in some fantasy world. Yeah, good luck figuring out the consistency on that one, though.

 

 

Gadreel told Dean that  Sam could eject him at anytime but Gadreel locked Sam so far away he couldn't which is why they used the angel brain digging gadget to find where Sam was stashed. Then Crowley had to possess Sam to get Sam to physically/metaphorically fight Gadreel to kick him out. That wasn't continual consent from Sam.  That was Gadreel homesteading in Sam by then.

 

If Sam hadn't physically/metaphorically fought Gadreel and was stronger than Gadreel, then he wouldn't have been able to kick him out.

Edited by catrox14
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catrox14

catrox14

Oh no.

Dean looks like he's in bad shape!  He's also wearing his red and black murder shirt combo....

 

Jensen Ackles ‏@JensenAckles 20m20 minutes ago
@jarpad ...Wish I was at a bar. Hell, wish I was in Austin. U don't care.

 
 
 
CafGKG5UcAEhzaR.jpg

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catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

Except he's in his own regular clothes while in a hospital bed...I'm not sure it's not Jensen screwing around? Although, I wouldn't be surprised to find out he's not, too.

 

Anything is possible.

 

But if he's in a small town emergency room and he just got there, he'd  still have his regular murder shirts on :P

 

Either way he looks pretty dang haggard to me. Maybe he was there visiting someone else and collapsed at the hospital. I personally think Dean is in jeopardy here. This is 11.17 if the filming schedule on SuperWiki is accurate.

 

Thinking back to this time last year he tweeted about 10.17 with the  Purgatory pic and then his bloody face and shirt from The Prisoner. 

Edited by catrox14
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DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

Oh, I'm not disagreeing they're laying the groundwork for something to be wrong with Dean....I'm sure they are. I'm just not sure that picture is exactly what it appears to be. But like I said, I wouldn't  be all that surprised to learn it is, too.

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SueB

SueB

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(edited)

Close up of the face.

5ftzTHh.png

 

Clearly beat up. And since I'm presuming Jensen didn't ACTUALLY get beaten up, this is "Dean" in a hospital bed.  

 

Here's the interesting part....Dean with those kind of facial injuries is just a normal little boo-boo.  Why the hospital???  If he was unconscious (thus transported to the hospital vice walking in under his own steam) wouldn't they have put him in a gown? SOMETHING doesn't add up.  

Edited by SueB
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catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

 

Here's the interesting part....Dean with those kind of facial injuries is just a normal little boo-boo.  Why the hospital???  If he was unconscious (thus transported to the hospital vice walking in under his own steam) wouldn't they have put him in a gown? SOMETHING doesn't add up.

 

I think it's more of the smiting sickness and he might have actually decided to take himself to the hospital. Maybe that's where the 'benching' comes into play. 

 

Or maybe Amara lost control and beat the fuck out of Dean and zapped him right to the hospital?

Edited by catrox14
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SueB

SueB

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I would think Amara would be able to fix him. But maybe that requires the 'Creator's' touch or one of his 'creations'. If she's God's opposite, maybe she can't heal.

Back to the episode 'The Vessel'

Reading some speculation on Tumblr, poster dustydreamsanddirtyscars has suggested the 'Hand of God' is a person vice a thing. Apologies for a lack of a link. I can't seem to get that working on my iPhone. One of the options she suggests is Dean. I could definitely see that. As she states, the Micheal sword was a person, why not the Hand of God? It provides yet another parallel with S5. And the lore may say the Hand of God was on that submarine, but it's not really true until Dean shows up on the sub thinking he's going after a thing. Bottom line: I'm super excited for that episode (The Vessel) and suspect it's going to shape a great deal of the rest of the season.

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catrox14

catrox14

ETA:  Or alternately, Amara beat the crap out of Dean and Casifer found him and zapped him to the hospital.  I just don't think Dean would go on his own if it was an ordinary demony/ghosty/monstery beat down.

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Aeryn13

Aeryn13

As far as I know, they are currently shooting out of order. Which would make this episode 18 instead of 17. No idea why. The usual reason is guest star availability but I`ve heard nothing about that. Ep 18 is traditionally a mytharc ep so maybe it deals more with Dean and Amara`s mysterious connection. Maybe it does affect him physically right now. I just hope it`s not like Season 5 where the 18th episode was pretty much used to set the way for kicking Dean out of the mytharc. Like, if he is "cured" here and henceforth has no more connection to Amara so lo and behold, he becomes useless and it is now all about Sam and Lucifer defeating her. Unfortunately, it would be right up this show`s alley.

 

Dean and Amara have to have a physical altercation but it kinda has to be in episode 14. There was a new scene of it in that Keep Grinding Trailer and that only went so far as ep 15. I doubt it is in next week`s ep and the Wrestler one so the U-Boot one it is.

 

I would like it if the "Hand of God" was Dean but that theory was a big logical flaw: it is Dean. If Sam was the speculated one, then sure, good chances. But most of these writers would a) never think of Dean in such a context and b) sooner chop their own hands off than write such a cooll myth for him. I`d gladly be wrong but don`t think I am.   

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Demented Daisy

Demented Daisy

Clearly beat up. And since I'm presuming Jensen didn't ACTUALLY get beaten up, this is "Dean" in a hospital bed.  

 

Here's the interesting part....Dean with those kind of facial injuries is just a normal little boo-boo.  Why the hospital???  If he was unconscious (thus transported to the hospital vice walking in under his own steam) wouldn't they have put him in a gown? SOMETHING doesn't add up.  

 

Which is why I think it's just Jensen messing about.  Isn't it possible that "Dean" is visiting someone in the hospital and Jensen hopped in the bed for a picture in between takes?

 

But I could be wrong.  Way too early to tell.

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SueB

SueB

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It IS completely within Jensen's skillset to troll us.  Now, it's possible Dean winds up in hospital but he didn't go so far as to show him in the bed with a hospital gown because that is TOO much a give-away.  OTOH, he's in the bed... so it's not like we can't suspect he's hurt.  

 

IDK... it's a clue, is my guess.  Just exactly what it means is left as an exercise for the fandom.  Fartblossom that he is.  

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7kstar

7kstar

Jensen loves trolling us!  So I could see he is going to investigate at the hospital and Jensen gets in the bed to send the tweet.

 

Remember when Jensen did the pic that he was all alone.  Then later Jared tweeted, I'm right by you. 

 

I would think it is more, Jared is in Houston having fun and Jensen is filming something for the ep and can't go.  If he can make it look like poor little Dean is hurt...that would be even better.  So I need more clues for my comfort.  Of course this could be a great creative writing exercise, why is Dean in that hospital bed with just a few boo boos?  :)

 

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SueB

SueB

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TWEETINT (Twitter Intelligence):

- Jensen flew home on Saturday to Austin (I believe)

- Jared, OTOH, appeared to have flown out Saturday night to Vegas for an evening with his buds. Multiple fan encounter instagrams in Vegas. A bit glassy-eyed if ya' know what I mean.

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catrox14

catrox14

TWEETINT (Twitter Intelligence):

- Jensen flew home on Saturday to Austin (I believe)

- Jared, OTOH, appeared to have flown out Saturday night to Vegas for an evening with his buds. Multiple fan encounter instagrams in Vegas. A bit glassy-eyed if ya' know what I mean.

 

Interesting. I saw a periscope from the bodyguard that implied they were going to the Super Bowl.

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catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

Could be! I know they were in Vegas but I thought maybe they could hop over to Santa Clara for the game. I mean it's like a hour flight I think.  Ah well the mysteries of rich guys roaming around  the friendly skies LOL

Edited by catrox14
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catrox14

catrox14

 

I would think Amara would be able to fix him. But maybe that requires the 'Creator's' touch or one of his 'creations'. If she's God's opposite, maybe she can't heal.

 

This is an interesting point.  I was thinking maybe she was trying to teach Dean a lesson a la Lucifer with Sam and she went too far and sent him to the hospital because she didn't really mean to hurt him that much.

 

I think his arms look weirdly puffy and look either dirty or battered and bruised and IMO his watch seems to be a bit too tight. Weird.

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catrox14

catrox14

Maybe it's the bends from being yanked back too quickly from the submarine to our time/the surface...and the docs don't realize and are trying to figure out what the hell is going on with him.

;-)

 

I think it depends on which episode that's being filmed. It seems to me the Vessel is like 2 or 3 episodes ahead of this one? But yeah I could see that, too.

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catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

Okay, I keep having this bizarre thought that will not go away re Dean and Amara.

 

He's been kind of messed up ever since he was standing by when she was smote** Correction: He was not there when she was smote" but I won't delete.

 

Now Cas said it's a smiting sickness, but gods forgive me....I have a different wild ass patently stupid spec that I can't shake.  It's utterly ridiculous and I really don't think it will happen but it's crossed my mind more than once.

 

I've wondered if Dean is messed up not from the smiting sickness but from when Amara kissed him.  He was totally freaked out.  She was saying she can't be resisted and they will be one. He's been woozy and barfing, has less energy, and is vulnerable to a banshee for yet unknown reasons. There has been a theme of creation throughout the season.  Dean protecting a baby from the get go. Crowley saying Dean is very maternal. And well....

 

Gods help me, I've wondered if  Amara imparted some kind of creation element or souls into him for safekeeping because she knew she was going to be smote.  No I don't think it's male pregnancy but more like a male seahorse.  Fuck me I don't even know why I ever thought about it.  And I don't read male pregnancy fics like ever.

 

But there I've said it. And I haven't even been drinking. 

 

ETA: Correcting because DD pointed out that he was not there when she was smote but that doesn't change my insane spec  materially.

Edited by catrox14
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Demented Daisy

Demented Daisy

Okay, I keep having this bizarre thought that will not go away re Dean and Amara.

 

He's been kind of messed up ever since he was standing by when she was smote.  

 

It probably doesn't matter, but Dean wasn't there when she was smote.  She had already zapped him back to the park.

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catrox14

catrox14

It probably doesn't matter, but Dean wasn't there when she was smote.  She had already zapped him back to the park.

 

Oh that's right, He got affected when he was driving back towards it, I forgot about that.

 

Even so,  it doesn't really change my insane spec because she kissed him before she zapped him back.

 

This might be the 100.6 fever talking too! LOL

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SueB

SueB

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Oh that's right, He got affected when he was driving back towards it, I forgot about that.

 

Even so,  it doesn't really change my insane spec because she kissed him before she zapped him back.

 

This might be the 100.6 fever talking too! LOL

I never get the time to read fanfic... but, I gotta say Dean as a male seahorse carrying Amara spawn strikes me as having potential.... Just sayin' (If you wrote it, I'd read it).

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catrox14

catrox14

I never get the time to read fanfic... but, I gotta say Dean as a male seahorse carrying Amara spawn strikes me as having potential.... Just sayin' (If you wrote it, I'd read it).

 

Nope. I will never write that because I hate myself for even having the thought in my head and there is not enough brain bleach in the world.

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Demented Daisy

Demented Daisy

Working on season 2 (sorry for the delay) and added a new category: thanks.  Maybe someday I'll go back and count season 1.  We'll see.

 

Anyway, while I work on that, I've got S11 on in the background and I can't help but wonder....  The lyrics to "Run Through the Jungle":

 

Whoa, thought it was a nightmare,
Lo, it's all so true,
They told me, "Don't go walkin' slow
'Cause the Devil's on the loose."

 

[CHORUS:]
Better run through the jungle,
Better run through the jungle,
Better run through the jungle,
Woa, Don't look back to see.

 

Thought I heard a rumblin'
Callin' to my name,
Two hundred million guns are loaded
Satan cries, "Take aim!"

 

[CHORUS]

 

Over on the mountain
Thunder magic spoke,
"Let the people know my wisdom,
Fill the land with smoke."

 

[CHORUS]

 

Happy accident, or did Carver actually plan ahead for this season?  Was he planning on releasing Lucifer from the get go?  And what did he plan on doing with him?  Any other clues in the song?  "Fill the land with smoke"?

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