Spoilers With Speculation

[Jonesy]

5 hours ago, catrox14 said:

For me, it's not a matter of wanting to hear it for my own sake, even though YES I DO, but I think DEAN the character deserves to hear validating words from the people who supposedly admire and respect him yet seem to disregard his advice and tend to invalidate his emotions to his face. I was thinking back to the Asa Fox episode when he was so proud of killing Hitler and he IMO, like a little kid, he sought Jody's validation that he did a good job. Jody also validated his emotions about Mary's return in her own smart way.  That came on the heels of Mary rejecting him and Sam and Sam telling him he had to just let her alone which he did do in his own way only to find out that she had time to go to ad dead hunter's funeral in Canada but not spend time with her adult children.  AND NO, this is not me saying Dean is a poor woobie who needs his mommy. 

I'm saying that all human beings need to be validated on some level. Dean's emotions have been invalidated  most of the season. And whilst Jody certainly helps, I think Sam and Mary owe Dean validation at least about the BMOL if nothing else.

We'll have to agree to disagree--I don't see Dean as being invalidated emotionally this year or in big need of that.  I think Dean is solid and cool this year(and almost all the time!).  And this is from someone who loves the whole cast but Dean is my favorite.   But again if he gets validated in dialogue...cool.  But I don't think he needs it and don't think its a big deal to dean.   Sure he'd like it but I don't think its that vital to him.

Edited May 10, 2017 by Jakes

[catrox14]

35 minutes ago, Jakes said:

We'll have to agree to disagree--I don't see Dean as being invalidated emotionally this year or in big need of that.  I think Dean is solid and cool this year(and almost all the time!).  And this is from someone who loves the whole cast but Dean is my favorite.   But again if he gets validated in dialogue...cool.  But I don't think he needs it and don't think its a big deal to dean.   Sure he'd like it but I don't think its that vital to him.

I was just speaking for myself and how I see Dean. We are all welcome to our viewpoints. I'm not expecting anyone to concur with my opinions. 

I don't think Dean is solid or cool at all this season. I've made my case about Dean's head space elsewhere, so I won't repeat myself. And yes I'm more than happy to agree to disagree.

[MysteryGuest]

I don't think Dean wants an apology from Sam or Mary.  I doubt he even thinks about that at all, and will now just see them as in the same predicament, together.  They might have him say something like "I knew they couldn't be trusted", or something along those lines, but I think that will be it.  It's definitely something some of us Dean fans would like to hear on behalf of Dean, however.  Mary lied to them and really hurt them both, and then Sam turned right around and did the same exact thing, although for a much shorter time.  There was absolutely hurt and resignation in Dean's reaction when Sam finally came clean, and I know that's what I'm reacting to and what I'd like the show not to ignore.  But I doubt we'll get much of anything.

[Idahoforspn]

2 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I don't think Dean wants an apology from Sam or Mary.  I doubt he even thinks about that at all, and will now just see them as in the same predicament, together.  They might have him say something like "I knew they couldn't be trusted", or something along those lines, but I think that will be it.  It's definitely something some of us Dean fans would like to hear on behalf of Dean, however.  Mary lied to them and really hurt them both, and then Sam turned right around and did the same exact thing, although for a much shorter time.  There was absolutely hurt and resignation in Dean's reaction when Sam finally came clean, and I know that's what I'm reacting to and what I'd like the show not to ignore.  But I doubt we'll get much of anything.

Well said.

[Jonesy]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I was just speaking for myself and how I see Dean. We are all welcome to our viewpoints. I'm not expecting anyone to concur with my opinions. 

I don't think Dean is solid or cool at all this season. I've made my case about Dean's head space elsewhere, so I won't repeat myself. And yes I'm more than happy to agree to disagree.

Okay fine...I was doing the same.  Yeah, we all see the show in our own way.

[Res]

21 hours ago, catrox14 said:

WE  got the death free finale last season and a resurrection of a loved one. I don't think we'll be so lucky this time around

And it was boring, very anti-climatic, and the worst one of the series IMO.

[Res]

11 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Since the show loves its parallels, I wouldn't be surprised if Dean was left the last man standing like Sam was at the end of s7.

I would. With the amount of attention Dean's gotten from the writers this season, I'd be very, pleasantly surprised if that happened which I sincerely doubt will.

Also, the problem with the Empty or the brothers in "peril" is that we know that it won't last more than 1-3 episodes max, then right back to the same old MotW format, if they even bother with a mytharc next year. They barely had one this year.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Res said:

And it was boring, very anti-climatic, and the worst one of the series IMO.

Oh, I agree. Just saying I think the pattern is likely that someone will die or at least be on death's door.

[Mick Lady]

16 hours ago, Idahoforspn said:

If Cass dies, he wont stay dead. I think Jensen and Jared would pack it up if Misha was leaving. The Show can't afford to lose one of its three most popular characters and survive. That is of course just my opinion.

Mick always had said "No one really dies on Supernatural!"

Hi Idahoforspn! I retired here! Nice to see someone else from Idaho!

[Idahoforspn]

1 minute ago, Mick Lady said:

Mick always had said "No one really dies on Supernatural!"

Hi Idahoforspn! I retired here! Nice to see someone else from Idaho!

Hello to you! PM me and tell me where you.

[gonzosgirrl]

12 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I don't think Dean wants an apology from Sam or Mary.  I doubt he even thinks about that at all, and will now just see them as in the same predicament, together.  They might have him say something like "I knew they couldn't be trusted", or something along those lines, but I think that will be it.  It's definitely something some of us Dean fans would like to hear on behalf of Dean, however.  Mary lied to them and really hurt them both, and then Sam turned right around and did the same exact thing, although for a much shorter time.  There was absolutely hurt and resignation in Dean's reaction when Sam finally came clean, and I know that's what I'm reacting to and what I'd like the show not to ignore.  But I doubt we'll get much of anything.

And I don't think it's just 'us' that feels Dean deserves some vindication (even if 'he' doesn't). The question came from somewhere in order for Dabb to assert that it would not be much of a factor - I can't remember where now...TVLine? - but that tells me it doesn't take fangirl goggles to see it.

ETA: I found the original source of Dabb's response, in TVLines Inside Line. The question was posed one way, but then rephrased by Mitovich himself:

Quote

I was surprised that Supernatural’s Dean caved so easily to working with the British Men of Letters. Is he now all in like the other Winchesters or will Dean continue to push back against the Brits’ way of hunting? —Lisa
We’ve helpfully updated your question: Considering what the Brits are up to now, with the spying and killing, is Dean going to be feeling pretty vindicated about his initial hesitations?

I am 100% certain that if/when there is something said (and I believe there will be something or Dabb would've shut it down altogether), it will be along the lines of Sam's at-long-last apology to Dean for not looking for him in Purgatory. Dean will brush it off as long-forgiven, or, turn it back on himself for going along despite his misgivings (much the same as some fans have). So I don't expect much satisfaction from it, but I'd still like it to be out there in canon.

Edited May 10, 2017 by gonzosgirrl
sentence structure - ugh

[ILoveReading]

My speculation for the sneak peek, Sam tinkers with colt, Dean frets about Cas.

[Idahoforspn]

13 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And I don't think it's just 'us' that feels Dean deserves some vindication (even if 'he' doesn't). The question came from somewhere in order for Dabb to assert that it would not be much of a factor - I can't remember where now...TVLine? - but that tells me it doesn't take fangirl goggles to see it.

I am 100% certain that if/when there is something said (and I believe there will be something or Dabb would've shut it down altogether), it will be along the lines of Sam's at-long-last apology to Dean for not looking for him in Purgatory. Dean will brush it off as long-forgiven, or, turn it back on himself for going along despite his misgivings (much the same as some fans have). So I don't expect much satisfaction from it, but I'd still like it to be out there in canon.

I would like to see just a little acknowledgement on the show that Dean has the right to not feel great over the fact that his family seems to have chosen the BMoL over him. Doesn't have to be much but anything would help ME to feel better about it. I also don't want Dean saying I told you so but that's just me.

[DittyDotDot]

22 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Sam's at-long-last apology to Dean for not looking for him in Purgatory.

Sam already apologized for that last season. 

[Diane]

1 minute ago, Idahoforspn said:

I would like to see just a little acknowledgement on the show that Dean has the right to not feel great over the fact that his family seems to have chosen the BMoL over him. Doesn't have to be much but anything would help ME to feel better about it. I also don't want Dean saying I told you so but that's just me.

Bolded is mine, I don't understand this, in no way have I seen that Sam chose the BMOL over Dean.  They have been shown to be working together and on the same page. JMO.

[gonzosgirrl]

4 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Sam already apologized for that last season. 

That's what I said.

I am speculating that any regret expressed for not listening to Dean this season will be met with the same response.

Edited May 10, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[DittyDotDot]

6 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

That's what I said.

I am speculating that any regret for not listening to Dean this season will be met with the same response.

That's a bad thing? I've always thought the point of forgiveness is knowing that the other party is acknowledging their mistakes.  If Sam is acknowledging he did something wrong then what would be the point in Dean belaboring the point? Wouldn't that just be Dean being a jerk in flogging an already dead horse?

Edited May 10, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[gonzosgirrl]

11 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

That's a bad thing? I've always thought the point of forgiveness is knowing that the other party is acknowledging their mistakes.  If Sam is acknowledging he did wrong and asking for forgiveness then what would be the point in Dean belaboring the point? Wouldn't that just be Dean being a jerk in flogging an already dead horse?

And completing the circle... that's what I've been saying all along. Nobody wants I don't want Sam* to grovel or Dean to be a jerk and throw it back in his face, which, by the way, is not Dean's style. His response to Sam's apology for Purgatory is case-in-point. The bolded is your addition. But an acknowledgement that his instincts were right is not unreasonable.

 

*I would, however, like to see Mary doing some sincere apologizing and it maybe not being quite so easily forgiven.

Edited May 10, 2017 by gonzosgirrl
Speaking for myself, not others

[DittyDotDot]

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And completing the circle... that's what I've been saying all along. Nobody wants Sam* to grovel or Dean to be a jerk and throw it back in his face, which, by the way, is not Dean's style. His response to Sam's apology for Purgatory is case-in-point. The bolded is your addition. But an acknowledgement that his instincts were right is not unreasonable.

I guess I got confused because it sounded like you were unhappy with the way Dean reacted to Sam's apology for Purgatory and didn't want to see that sort of thing again. 

5 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

*I would, however, like to see Mary doing some sincere apologizing and it maybe not being quite so easily forgiven.

I don't think she's been forgiven...not really. I think Dean agreed to disagree with her choice of employment, but I don't think he has forgiven her for lying and manipulating them. But, she hasn't actually asked for forgiveness on that front either. 

[Idahoforspn]

20 minutes ago, Diane said:

Bolded is mine, I don't understand this, in no way have I seen that Sam chose the BMOL over Dean.  They have been shown to be working together and on the same page. JMO.

ILOVEREADING explained it better than I can in the All Episodes thread. If that doesn't explain why some of hold a different opinion than yours I don't know what else to say because I said my peace in that thread too. As I said over there, let's agree to disagree.

[gonzosgirrl]

5 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I guess I got confused because it sounded like you were unhappy with the way Dean reacted to Sam's apology for Purgatory and didn't want to see that sort of thing again.

No. I think the way Dean reacted to that was totally in character. My unhappiness would/will be only if Dean goes beyond accepting any mea culpa from Sam for this situation and turns it back on himself (as he is also wont to do with these writers).

 

5 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I don't think she's been forgiven...not really. I think Dean agreed to disagree with her choice of employment, but I don't think he has forgiven her for lying and manipulating them. But, she hasn't actually asked for forgiveness on that front either. 

I'm not making myself understood very well - I meant if/when her apologies come, they aren't just accepted and her season-long transgressions glossed over. I feel that is precisely what's going to happen though, given Dean's softening face after hearing her recorded "I love you" at the end of last week.

[DittyDotDot]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

No. I think the way Dean reacted to that was totally in character. My unhappiness would/will be only if Dean goes beyond accepting any mea culpa from Sam for this situation and turns it back on himself (as he is also wont to do with these writers).

Fair enough. I think Dean holds responsibility for his own choice in working with them, but we don't need anymore guilt-ridden Dean. If there's one thing this season they've done right, IMO, Dean seems to finally have shed all his guilt. Which is a nice change of pace for this viewer.

I actually think Dabbs comments suggest there is some acknowledgement of Dean's correct instincts, it's just not a big drawn-out melodramatic moment. Probably more of a, "You were right Dean, I'm sorry I got us into this." Dean will probably just say that it doesn't matter who right, they need to figure out what to do about it now. 

8 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I'm not making myself understood very well - I meant if/when her apologies come, they aren't just accepted and her season-long transgressions glossed over. I feel that is precisely what's going to happen though, given Dean's softening face after hearing her recorded "I love you" at the end of last week.

I don't know that Mary's really had season-long transgressions? She didn't ask to be brought back from the dead and I think her early-season runaway is sad for Sam and Dean, but she wasn't trying to hurt them. She was struggling herself.

I think her only real transgression is she lied to them, used them and almost got Cass killed in the crossfire. Actually, I think her only real transgression is that she hasn't acknowledged that her lying and usery was wrong. 

That, to me, is what she needs to apologize for. I don't think she needs to apologize for not being able to embrace them right away, nor do I think she needs to apologize if she can't embrace them ever. 

Anyway, I'm not sure we'll get a full apology from Mary. Her message in the last episode might be it? It's hard to say at this juncture though. All depends on whether Mary survives the season or not, I think.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

37 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

 But an acknowledgement that his instincts were right is not unreasonable.

I just don't understand why Dean should get acknowledgement that his instincts were right when he himself counteracted his own said instincts.  

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Anyway, I'm not sure we'll get a full apology from Mary. Her message in the last episode might be it?

It`s very probable. Also, they might go for "redemption" by victimization aka we see Mary being beaten/tortured/whatever by the BMOL and are supposed to feel sorry for her and all is forgiven. Well, I found the character so damn unlikeable this Season where this most certainly doesn`t work anymore. Quite frankly, have at it, Lady Deadeyes. 

Obviously the brothers won`t feel the same way but they are biased in Mary`s favour. 

Edited May 10, 2017 by Aeryn13

[Diane]

[Idahoforspn]

12 minutes ago, Diane said:

Hopefully that makes people feel a little better about the Sam/Mary relationship. That clip gives the impression that Mary had called Sam.

Edited May 10, 2017 by Idahoforspn

[RulerofallIsurvey]

The "But Mom called two days ago.  Said she was working a case with him."  doesn't give me the impression that she called Sam.  She probably called Dean's phone and either spoke to both of them (on speaker) or told Dean to relay the information to Sam - which is what she's been shown to do.  Possibly, Sam picked up Dean's phone when she called - just like Dean picked up Mary's phone last week.

[Jonesy]

Here's hoping that we get some spoilerage about the finale from the UK Con this weekend from either Misha, the 2 Marks or Kim!

[Idahoforspn]

3 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

The "But Mom called two days ago.  Said she was working a case with him."  doesn't give me the impression that she called Sam.  She probably called Dean's phone and either spoke to both of them (on speaker) or told Dean to relay the information to Sam - which is what she's been shown to do.  Possibly, Sam picked up Dean's phone when she called - just like Dean picked up Mary's phone last week.

I got the impression she called Sam so that's just an agree to disagree. I wasn't being snarky with my post. I am sorry if it came across as anything but sincere. I was being serious that I hoped this gave some Sam fans a little of what they had been asking for.

[catrox14]

HA! I love Dean in that clip. "No, I'm not being curt. No, I'm not being terse. I don't have time for manners 101 with you".
 "He's SUCH a dick".  Yes, yes he is Dean. 

 I'm adding to my previous spec re Sam's "I wanna punch something in the face" being about Magda, I'm adding that it could come with they figure out Mick is dead. 

Also, I don't think the boys  know there is an Australian sized bug in the bunker. IMO, if they did, wouldn't they have just headed straight for the BMLOL when they didn't hear from Mick after a week?

[SueB]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think her only real transgression is she lied to them, used them and almost got Cass killed in the crossfire. Actually, I think her only real transgression is that she hasn't acknowledged that her lying and usery was wrong. 

That, to me, is what she needs to apologize for. I don't think she needs to apologize for not being able to embrace them right away, nor do I think she needs to apologize if she can't embrace them ever. 

Anyway, I'm not sure we'll get a full apology from Mary. Her message in the last episode might be it? It's hard to say at this juncture though. All depends on whether Mary survives the season or not, I think.

Mary did apologize to Sam for the bolded text in The Raid:

Quote

Mary: Sam, I messed up. I know I messed up. But what the British Men of Letters are doing, this is bigger than us, Sam. We've got a real shot here.
Sam: Shot at what? 
Mary: A world without monsters. A world where you and Dean don't have to hunt, where you can have normal lives.
Sam: I chose this life.
Mary: I know. But you were going to school, to college. And I get why you gave it up. But what if you didn't have to? What if there was a different future for you, for us? That's why I'm doing this. That is what I'm fighting for. I am not trying to recruit you, but you need to know. Things are changing. Please.
Just let me show you. (Entering the compound) It's, uh, just in here.

And the italics stuff IS in fact true.  Sam and Dean did need to know that the Brits are on a systematic approach to killing all monsters.

19 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

The "But Mom called two days ago.  Said she was working a case with him."  doesn't give me the impression that she called Sam.  She probably called Dean's phone and either spoke to both of them (on speaker) or told Dean to relay the information to Sam - which is what she's been shown to do.  Possibly, Sam picked up Dean's phone when she called - just like Dean picked up Mary's phone last week.

I'm pretty sure "two days ago" was during episode 11.20.  Her voicemail:
 

Quote

"Hey, it's me. Sorry I couldn't pick up before. I've been on a hunt with Ketch. And Dean, I'm sorry I haven't been there for you and Sam. I wanna be. I will be. I just...I need to finish this. I miss you boys. I love you.

So this voicemail sets her as working with Ketch. In regards to apologies, it apologizes for 'not being there' but not the lying.  The writers may think it's covered if the character has said it allowed to ONE of the boys.  In which case, she's apologized for both the lying/using AND the abandonment.  Not GREAT apologies, and not directly to both. Note: "I messed up" counts as "I'm sorry" in my book. The writers have said before, that they try to use different phrases to mean the same thing, in order to keep it fresh.  So "I messed up" versus "I'm sorry" is likely an equivalent in their minds.  

Having said all this, if Mary survives, I think she'll express remorse about working with the BMoL.  

As for the clip -- I like it. I like it when the boys are smart.  They've (apparently) taken immediate action based on her voicemail and figured out the BMoL are lying pretty quickly. 

Edited May 10, 2017 by SueB

[catrox14]

16 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Possibly, Sam picked up Dean's phone when she called - just like Dean picked up Mary's phone last week.

Sam answered Mary's phone last week, which was conveniently buried under stack of open research books.  That is still so stupid, like how long was that phone there? How long were those open books sitting conveniently on top of it? Why didn't Sam notice it? Did Mary leave it there on purpose? If so, why didn't she just say, hey guys, I'm leaving my other, other phone here, because if I don't answer my first phone then you should be kind of worried. And once they did answer that other phone, why didn't they immediately think...that's weird?

Oh plot contrivance, why must you be so stupid some times?

At least with John's phone it was known to be in the glove box of the Impala the whole time.

[Idahoforspn]

6 minutes ago, SueB said:

Mary did apologize to Sam for the bolded text in The Raid:

And the italics stuff IS in fact true.  Sam and Dean did need to know that the Brits are on a systematic approach to killing all monsters.

I'm pretty sure "two days ago" was during episode 11.20.  Her voicemail:
 

Ok. I'm going to change my mind and agree.

6 minutes ago, SueB said:

So this voicemail sets her as working with Ketch. In regards to apologies, it apologizes for 'not being there' but not the lying.  The writers may think it's covered if the character has said it allowed to ONE of the boys.

But I don't. She should have apologized to both IMO

6 minutes ago, SueB said:

 In which case, she's apologized for both the lying/using AND the abandonment.  Not GREAT apologies, and not directly to both. Note: "I messed up" counts as "I'm sorry" in my book. The writers have said before, that they try to use different phrases to mean the same thing, in order to keep it fresh.  So "I messed up" versus "I'm sorry" is likely an equivalent in their minds.

This goes back to a previous discussion on what counts as an apology. I also feel it is even if the words I'm Sorry weren't used.

6 minutes ago, SueB said:

Having said all this, if Mary survives, I think she'll express remorse about working with the BMoL.  

As for the clip -- I like it. I like it when the boys are smart.  They've (apparently) taken immediate action based on her voicemail and figured out the BMoL are lying pretty quickly. 

I liked the clip too.

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

Mary did apologize to Sam for the bolded text in The Raid:

She did, sort of. But, she didn't really. I mean, it wasn't until Sam was holding the gun that he realized how it had been procured. I think she apologized for not telling them she was working with the Brits sooner, but has yet to cop to the actual betrayal, though, IMO. Working for the Brits is her prerogative, using people really isn't.

ETA: BTW, I'm not saying I need further apology from Mary, I'm just saying the only thing I think she needs to apologize for how she used them to get the Colt. If she really feels sorry for not being able to embrace them, an apology is fine, but I don't need one on that front.

Edited May 10, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[RulerofallIsurvey]

49 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Sam answered Mary's phone last week, which was conveniently buried under stack of open research books. 

Oops! You're right!  I couldn't remember which one and thought it was Dean for some reason.  

[rue721]

51 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Sam answered Mary's phone last week, which was conveniently buried under stack of open research books.  That is still so stupid, like how long was that phone there? How long were those open books sitting conveniently on top of it? Why didn't Sam notice it? Did Mary leave it there on purpose? If so, why didn't she just say, hey guys, I'm leaving my other, other phone here, because if I don't answer my first phone then you should be kind of worried. And once they did answer that other phone, why didn't they immediately think...that's weird?

Oh plot contrivance, why must you be so stupid some times?

At least with John's phone it was known to be in the glove box of the Impala the whole time.

It was probably charging. Hard to find an outlet in that old place! ;)

[catrox14]

25 minutes ago, rue721 said:

It was probably charging. Hard to find an outlet in that old place! ;)

Maybe it was charging via wifi because it wasn't plugged into anything LOL. And apparently the battery never drains either since it was on and they heard it vibrate. LOL.

Sorry but I am going to nitpick the crap out of that plot contrivance.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

HA! I love Dean in that clip. "No, I'm not being curt. No, I'm not being terse. I don't have time for manners 101 with you".
 "He's SUCH a dick".  Yes, yes he is Dean. 

 I'm adding to my previous spec re Sam's "I wanna punch something in the face" being about Magda, I'm adding that it could come with they figure out Mick is dead. 

Also, I don't think the boys  know there is an Australian sized bug in the bunker. IMO, if they did, wouldn't they have just headed straight for the BMLOL when they didn't hear from Mick after a week?

This was my first thought on seeing that clip.

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I just don't understand why Dean should get acknowledgement that his instincts were right when he himself counteracted his own said instincts.  

Because he did it, IMO, to support Sam, something he's been roundly punished (not the word I'm looking for, but close enough) for not doing in the past. YMMV and clearly does, but that's my take on it.

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Fair enough. I think Dean holds responsibility for his own choice in working with them, but we don't need anymore guilt-ridden Dean. If there's one thing this season they've done right, IMO, Dean seems to finally have shed all his guilt. Which is a nice change of pace for this viewer.

I actually think Dabbs comments suggest there is some acknowledgement of Dean's correct instincts, it's just not a big drawn-out melodramatic moment. Probably more of a, "You were right Dean, I'm sorry I got us into this." Dean will probably just say that it doesn't matter who right, they need to figure out what to do about it now. 

 

Agreed (the bolded). As to the rest, I'd be perfectly happy if it plays out this way, as I said. I don't have a lot of confidence in the current administration though.

 

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I don't know that Mary's really had season-long transgressions? She didn't ask to be brought back from the dead and I think her early-season runaway is sad for Sam and Dean, but she wasn't trying to hurt them. She was struggling herself.

I think her only real transgression is she lied to them, used them and almost got Cass killed in the crossfire. Actually, I think her only real transgression is that she hasn't acknowledged that her lying and usery was wrong. 

 

This though... No, she didn't ask for the situation she is (was) in, but neither did her children. Telling Dean he's 'not a child' in the manner and circumstances she did was absolutely shitty of her, and I honestly don't know what the writers were thinking. Any sympathy I had for her, tenuous as it was, flew right out the window with that line. It's like they went out of their way to make her as unlikeable as possible at pretty much every turn, and that was the capper. So yeah, I think she has a lot to apologize for besides lying.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Because he did it, IMO, to support Sam, something he's been roundly punished (not the word I'm looking for, but close enough) for not doing in the past. YMMV and clearly does, but that's my take on it.

Imo, it doesn't matter why he did it.  He still did it.  People don't deserve acknowledgment for having good instincts which they act against.  

[catrox14]

I look at it this way:

"I'm not gonna let my brother die alone".

IMO, this line sums up Dean's relationship to his family: brother, father, mother, best friend, surrogate father, blood or not, anyone Dean deems as family, he TYPICALLY puts family ahead of his own opinions, and instincts,  much to my chagrin when I think he should have let them sink or swim on their own, but the narrative choice puts Dean in the position that he will relent/acquiesce for the sake of family, even after he's learned he was lied to and deceived by a family member. He was either shamed into going back or it was framed that Dean was flat out wrong for not being on board.  Given what he knows was done to Sam by the BMOL, IMO, if he didn't join and something happens to Sam and/or Mary, he won't be able to forgive himself.  So for me it's completely in character, again to my chagrin, with regard to Sam and Mary joining the  BMOL that Dean followed his pattern of doing something he disagreed with for family.  And IMO, the timeline is a little unclear but it seems to me it's only been MAYBE a month at most that Dean was KNOWINGLY working with the BMOL so I don't think he's all in based on time committed. The two weeks of multiple cases were done with Dean being in the dark about the source of the cases. IMO, he's TRYING to make it work despite his misgivings, which IMO has been his pattern with many things this season. He's going along to get along.  That's just how I see it.

What I'm looking forward to is Dean stabbing Ketch in the face.

I have a question though about Ketch. What happened to the shapeshifter? I think that is going to come into play at some point. I wouldn't put it past the show to give Ketch an out and give him a hero moment because it was really shapeshifter!Ketch in the fight with Mary and who captured her.  It might be interesting if Ketch was working with the shapeshifters to raid the bunker, like they paid them to be them, whilst the real Ketch and Co are back at the bunker, safe and sound.

[Diane]

9 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Imo, it doesn't matter why he did it.  He still did it.  People don't deserve acknowledgment for having good instincts which they act against.  

Thank you, exactly.

[Wynne88]

On the clip . . . Seems like Ketch telling them he hasn't seen Mary for a week when he encouraged her to call Dean back just 2 days previous is a good way to lure Sam and Dean into their facility.  Sounds like a trap to me. Hope they are smart enough not to fall in.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Wynne88 said:

On the clip . . . Seems like Ketch telling them he hasn't seen Mary for a week when he encouraged her to call Dean back just 2 days previous is a good way to lure Sam and Dean into their facility.  Sounds like a trap to me. Hope they are smart enough not to fall in.

I wondered about that, then I thought maybe it was the shapeshifter that answered the phone. Like I guess I don't see Ketch as being so weird about Dean and acting like he doesn't know who he is or bitching at him about how he speaks to him. That just doesn't mesh with Ketch even if he's hiding somethitng. I think Ketch would just lie and say Mary is out on a hunt with someone else, because with Mick being overseas he's having to do his administrative BS and he'll give Mary the message.  It was strange and IMO not what I think Ketch would do.

Oh...wait, what if the shapeshifters have taken over the BMOLair like the vampires almost did. Hmmm. And shapeshifter!Dean liked playing the role of Dean because shapeshifters are crazy to an extent.  HMMMMM

[Idahoforspn]

11 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I look at it this way:

"I'm not gonna let my brother die alone".

IMO, this line sums up Dean's relationship to his family: brother, father, mother, best friend, surrogate father, blood or not, anyone Dean deems as family, he TYPICALLY puts family ahead of his own opinions, and instincts,  much to my chagrin when I think he should have let them sink or swim on their own, but the narrative choice puts Dean in the position that he will relent/acquiesce for the sake of family, even after he's learned he was lied to and deceived by a family member. He was either shamed into going back or it was framed that Dean was flat out wrong for not being on board.  Given what he knows was done to Sam by the BMOL, IMO, if he didn't join and something happens to Sam and/or Mary, he won't be able to forgive himself.  So for me it's completely in character, again to my chagrin, with regard to Sam and Mary joining the  BMOL that Dean followed his pattern of doing something he disagreed with for family. 

 

And IMO, the timeline is a little unclear but it seems to me it's only been MAYBE a month at most that Dean was KNOWINGLY working with the BMOL so I don't think he's all in based on time committed. The two weeks of multiple cases were done with Dean being in the dark about the source of the cases. IMO, he's TRYING to make it work despite his misgivings, which IMO has been his pattern with many things this season. He's going along to get along.  That's just how I see it.

Ditto!!

11 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

What I'm looking forward to is Dean stabbing Ketch in the face.

 

I am to but I don't think he will be given the opportunity.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Imo, it doesn't matter why he did it.  He still did it.  People don't deserve acknowledgment for having good instincts which they act against.  

How about 'Thanks for supporting me even if you didn't believe in it, because I asked you to (and I've scorned you for not having any faith in me in the past)'. Does Dean deserve that?

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I look at it this way:

"I'm not gonna let my brother die alone".

IMO, this line sums up Dean's relationship to his family: brother, father, mother, best friend, surrogate father, blood or not, anyone Dean deems as family, he TYPICALLY puts family ahead of his own opinions, and instincts,  much to my chagrin when I think he should have let them sink or swim on their own, but the narrative choice puts Dean in the position that he will relent/acquiesce for the sake of family, even after he's learned he was lied to and deceived by a family member. He was either shamed into going back or it was framed that Dean was flat out wrong for not being on board.  Given what he knows was done to Sam by the BMOL, IMO, if he didn't join and something happens to Sam and/or Mary, he won't be able to forgive himself.  So for me it's completely in character, again to my chagrin, with regard to Sam and Mary joining the  BMOL that Dean followed his pattern of doing something he disagreed with for family.  And IMO, the timeline is a little unclear but it seems to me it's only been MAYBE a month at most that Dean was KNOWINGLY working with the BMOL so I don't think he's all in based on time committed. The two weeks of multiple cases were done with Dean being in the dark about the source of the cases. IMO, he's TRYING to make it work despite his misgivings, which IMO has been his pattern with many things this season. He's going along to get along.  That's just how I see it.

What I'm looking forward to is Dean stabbing Ketch in the face.

I have a question though about Ketch. What happened to the shapeshifter? I think that is going to come into play at some point. I wouldn't put it past the show to give Ketch an out and give him a hero moment because it was really shapeshifter!Ketch in the fight with Mary and who captured her.  It might be interesting if Ketch was working with the shapeshifters to raid the bunker, like they paid them to be them, whilst the real Ketch and Co are back at the bunker, safe and sound.

That's how I see it, as well. Going along to get along.

I assumed Ketch killed the shifter. I'd have to watch again, but I feel like he used past tense talking about it in the hallway with Mary?

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I assumed Ketch killed the shifter. I'd have to watch again, but I feel like he used past tense talking about it in the hallway with Mary?

Ah thanks.

I wasn't sure. I'm still puzzled by Ketch changing his suit and tie after tasing Mary. I mean how long was she out for? That's one reason why I was wondering if Ketch may have swapped places with the shapeshifter rather than kill it. It kind of reminded me about the hunter that was working on the inside with the Alpha Vamp. I suppose I have no logical reason for considering it, I just thought it was ...odd.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Ah thanks.

I wasn't sure. I'm still puzzled by Ketch changing his suit and tie after tasing Mary. I mean how long was she out for? That's one reason why I was wondering if Ketch may have swapped places with the shapeshifter rather than kill it. It kind of reminded me about the hunter that was working on the inside with the Alpha Vamp. I suppose I have no logical reason for considering it, I just thought it was ...odd.

You may still be right - I am not 100% sure of my recollection. I watch all the BMoL scenes with such a stink-eye I may well have missed what you saw. :P

[RulerofallIsurvey]

14 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

How about 'Thanks for supporting me even if you didn't believe in it, because I asked you to (and I've scorned you for not having any faith in me in the past)'. Does Dean deserve that?

Responding in All Eps.