Spoilers With Speculation

[mertensia]

If that's a marlin-the USS Marlin? It was a sub in WW2- and sank a U-Boat.

[SueB]

I think the contents of Marie's play were not canon (there's no actual singing in Suoernatural) but that Calliope appeared and was ganked at a play based on Chuck's book 'happened' in canon. I can see Chuck's visit as a one-off nod but I think I would feel that was a retcon if he's not God. I think it was strongly implied. There's enough wiggle room to get out of it, but I'd be surprised if they did.

[catrox14]

I think the contents of Marie's play were not canon (there's no actual singing in Suoernatural) but that Calliope appeared and was ganked at a play based on Chuck's book 'happened' in canon. I can see Chuck's visit as a one-off nod but I think I would feel that was a retcon if he's not God. I think it was strongly implied. There's enough wiggle room to get out of it, but I'd be surprised if they did.

 

For me this is another example of why Fan Fiction is a problem as a canon episode of the show. (sort of like Bloodlines and no one talks about that one!).

 

"There's no singing in Supernatural". That's canonically false. Marie including it in her play is canonically accurate because the boys sang 'Wanted Dead or Alive in s3, she just wrote different songs for the "boys" to sing.  So why have Dean say that at all, other than a funny ironic desperate attempt by Dean to shut down Marie because he was really upset at seeing their lives on display...again. 

 

Was it a bit of a retcon to lessen the importance of singing in Marie's play? If so, why would they do that unless they wanted to mitigate the inclusion of the arguable subtextual canon of Wincest and Destiel?

 

To me that has to be a joke and a bit of a meta way of saying, "Don't take this episode seriously as part of the canon of the show" because we know there is singing in Supernatural, there always has been, no matter what Dean said in the middle of a freak out. So Chuck/The Publisher appearing at the end strikes me again as just a wink and a nod to us more than 'Hey look, it's Chuck. We want him on Earth again for the Darkness reasons".  But that's just me!

I know I'm rambling but that episode is really weird for the continuity of the show.  YMMV

[SueB]

So now I want to go watch Fan Fiction again because I enjoyed it so much.

[Mick Lady]

So now I want to go watch Fan Fiction again because I enjoyed it so much.

 

So did I! I'm going to watch it tonight, after football.

[neverforgottenadam]

I'd be really surprised if we saw God as an unequivocal named, confirmed on screen character before the end of the series, as in the very end like the last few episodes. Now if the network gave SPN the word they are not getting a 12th season at this juncture then maybe we see God this season, but so far I've not heard anything about that. Not even any unsubstantiated chatter on Twitter or Tumblr. 

 

As to the message, Cas might believe it's God, but I think he'd be mighty surprised at that considering how disconnected he is from Heaven right now. And if it was Lucifer, not God, sending Sam messages then I tend to think it might not be God sending messages to Cas either. Maybe Michael?

 

The most intriguing part of the promo for me is the shot of the Stull Cemetery sign. I think it's probably just a "Road So Far" previously reminding the audience about how Lucifer and Sam ended up in the Actual!Cage. 

 

But if it is meaningful I was wondering why that might be.

 

-- Dean or Sam are having flashbacks to the fight in Stull Cemetary.

-- Dean and Cas go back to try and find a way back into Hell through the place Sam jumped in.

--Cas goes back on his own to try get Michael out for help thinking the message on his chest if from Michael?

-- Cas has hidden the demon tablet and the First Blade somewhere in Stull Cemetary, which would be kind of awesome

but they surely won't do anything that awesome.

It it is intresting you mention Stull Cementary, Sam and Dean.

As of now Sam appears to be against Dean because he (Dean) is enamoured and not capable of hurting the Darkness.

 I suspect Sam will face Dean in Stull Cementary in the end of this season to try and seal the Darkness (send it back to the cage)  which Dean will not easily let happen causing god to make an appearance.

 

For Cas, I agree with you he could have gone for Michael for help or someone else of higher ranking.

[neverforgottenadam]

I think the contents of Marie's play were not canon (there's no actual singing in Suoernatural) but that Calliope appeared and was ganked at a play based on Chuck's book 'happened' in canon. I can see Chuck's visit as a one-off nod but I think I would feel that was a retcon if he's not God. I think it was strongly implied. There's enough wiggle room to get out of it, but I'd be surprised if they did.

I read this article about Chuck being God, (not all of the article some parts)

 

"-Chuck as a writer is the creator of the story of Sam and Dean Winchester in the form of the Supernatural books. He says when confronted with the real Sam and Dean that he "is a god", for all that he puts them through in the books happens in real life.

"Well, there's only one explanation. Obviously I'm a god... I'm definitely a god. A cruel, cruel, capricious god."

– Chuck to Dean and Sam, 4.18 The Monster At The End Of This Book

This is explained by Castiel as Chuck being a prophet of God. Castiel says the "Supernatural" Books will become known as the Winchester Gospels.

-The metaphor in this episode is of the writer as creator. Chuck's pseudonym is Carver Edlund, a reference to Supernatural writers Jeremy Carver and Ben Edlund. The character is an avatar for Kripke himself Source and is used to comment on the text and process of writing with reference to specific past episodes of the Show. This metaphor would also hold then is God, the creator, was also the writer. We have a trinity here - Chuck, Kripke and God.

-Sam and Dean find out from the angel Joshua that God is on Earth 5.16 Dark Side Of The Moon

-In the finale there, is further foreshadowing of Chuck's true identity: When Dean calls Chuck, Chuck answers the phone "Mistress Magda," and we briefly see a newspaper ad for a blonde women in a bikini named "Miss Magda" on Chuck's desk before he puts his glass on it. This may be a reference to Mary Magdalene who Jesus, the physical incarnation of God, healed of demons. She then become a follower of his, and an early Christian leader.

-Chuck, after narrating the events that take place, finally appears dressed in white musing on the difficulty of getting endings right. He then disappears - Chuck, it seems, is God."

 

I think its an intresting theory of Chuck being God. 

Source: http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/InstigatorGIRL/news/?a=18365

[mertensia]

My view is also the story of Fan fiction is canon but not Marie's play. Why would her fictional play be considered as canonical? It's like saying Sam and Dean must look like the covers of the Supernatural books because the books are the Winchester Gospels. Except we know they don't.

My view is Chuck is inhabited by God now but wasn't until the end of Swan Song.

[Wynne88]

So maybe having Lucifer temporarily moved to a different cage opened the way for Castiel to safely reach the other one and extract Michael and Adam? Sorry if this has already been suggested - I try to keep up, but . . .

[DittyDotDot]

For me this is another example of why Fan Fiction is a problem as a canon episode of the show. (sort of like Bloodlines and no one talks about that one!).

 

"There's no singing in Supernatural". That's canonically false. Marie including it in her play is canonically accurate because the boys sang 'Wanted Dead or Alive in s3, she just wrote different songs for the "boys" to sing.  So why have Dean say that at all, other than a funny ironic desperate attempt by Dean to shut down Marie because he was really upset at seeing their lives on display...again. 

 

Was it a bit of a retcon to lessen the importance of singing in Marie's play? If so, why would they do that unless they wanted to mitigate the inclusion of the arguable subtextual canon of Wincest and Destiel?

 

To me that has to be a joke and a bit of a meta way of saying, "Don't take this episode seriously as part of the canon of the show" because we know there is singing in Supernatural, there always has been, no matter what Dean said in the middle of a freak out. So Chuck/The Publisher appearing at the end strikes me again as just a wink and a nod to us more than 'Hey look, it's Chuck. We want him on Earth again for the Darkness reasons".  But that's just me!

I know I'm rambling but that episode is really weird for the continuity of the show.  YMMV

 

I think Fan Fiction--the monster they hunted and the people they saved--is supposed to be canon, but the play itself is not. Dean saying there's no singing in Supernatural wasn't to say no one has ever sang a song over the course of the show, but it's not a musical like what he saw on that stage. I think it is a bit of meta commentary on how most shows of Supernatural's ilk try and do a musical episode at some point in their run. I think the show was just stating this wasn't going to be what other shows do. 

 

Personally, I think Chuck is God in the sense that he's the writer--and so it made perfect sense how they used him in Fan Fiction--but the character of Chuck didn't become God until he finished his work in Swan Song. Prior to that I think of him as a prophet. I'd love to see Rob Benedict (and Chuck) back, but I'm not sure I really want to see him come back as God, creator of the universe. It's hard to explain, but I think they should leave that shit alone. Much like returning to the cage, there's really not much they can do with Chuck that won't tear down what was built up before.

 

Hey, maybe I'll be proved wrong and all the Lucifer stuff will turn out to be a hoax or illusion or something? Yeah, I know. ;)

[AwesomO4000]

Personally, I think Chuck is God in the sense that he's the writer--and so it made perfect sense how they used him in Fan Fiction--but the character of Chuck didn't become God until he finished his work in Swan Song. Prior to that I think of him as a prophet. I'd love to see Rob Benedict (and Chuck) back, but I'm not sure I really want to see him come back as God, creator of the universe. It's hard to explain, but I think they should leave that shit alone. Much like returning to the cage, there's really not much they can do with Chuck that won't tear down what was built up before.

Hey, maybe I'll be proved wrong and all the Lucifer stuff will turn out to be a hoax or illusion or something? Yeah, I know. ;)

 

For me it depends on what they do with the cage. For Sam, there are obviously unresolved issues there - "this  lump in my throat is not an excuse" - and if the story addresses those, then I won't mind the trip back. If Sam just turns into a damsel in distress and nothing of importance on solving Amara, the Smog Monster comes from Sam's return trip to the cage, then I will assuredly agree that they shouldn't have gone there. However, if the trip contributes something, even if that is only important information, and Sam grows and/or learns something from the experience - even if it's much like his facing the clowns in "Plucky Pennywhistle's..." - then I won't mind, and it might even be one of the better (maybe even the best) stories that Sam's character will have gotten out of Carer's era... since so far, his character hasn't been faring that well arc-wise under Carver's era, in my opinion.

 

As for Chuck as God. I agree that if Chuck is God now, this did not happen until the end of "Swan Song" when God would have taken over Chuck's image at that point. Because Chuck himself should be dead, signaling the need for a new prophet in the vampire slayer modus operandi of one dies, another is called. In this case Kevin's official "calling" was delayed until the tablet was unearthed, signaling the "need" for a prophet, and so Kevin was officially sworn into action.

[DittyDotDot]

IMO, they can deal with Sam's unresolved issues of being in the cage without actually going to the cage. If only Yellow Eyes had known he just needed to take a little walk through Hell with a witch to be able to talk with Lucifer. And, apparently Death getting Sam's soul back out of the cage was not really all that difficult a feet based on what they did now. But, if it turns out to be an illusion, it can still be meaningful to Sam and what came before won't seem so pointless. 

[SueB]

IMO, they can deal with Sam's unresolved issues of being in the cage without actually going to the cage. If only Yellow Eyes had known he just needed to take a little walk through Hell with a witch to be able to talk with Lucifer. And, apparently Death getting Sam's soul back out of the cage was not really all that difficult a feet based on what they did now. But, if it turns out to be an illusion, it can still be meaningful to Sam and what came before won't seem so pointless.

I'd say they are using The Book of the Damned as the Macguffin that covers that potential plothole. Personally, I'm okay with that. Plus the Cage was weakened by releasing th Darkness....so, maybe it's easier. But I'd be okay or the Book to be extra special. I'd also be okay if the Book gets destroyed this season. It's too much of a crutch.

[catrox14]

Appreciate the feedback on Fan Fiction.  I'll have to noodle on the ideas. 

 

As to Chuck is God, I don't think he is. but if he is I really don't think I want Chuck back for a handful of reasons.

 

I never liked the notion of the Darkness being portrayed as a femme fatale to begin with but here we are, stuck with a conventional trope of a beautiful woman in stereotypical feminine clothing. There is nothing wrong with stereotypical feminine clothing and celebrating the beautiful female form and I do understand it's likely supposed to be "goddess" style clothing. I have wondered why this primordial God-like entity that was locked away at the dawn of humanity before clothing was a thing would choose that particular look. And given her fascination and "bond" with Dean as her first experience with God's creation, she could have modeled her wardrobe choices on Dean's outfit. There wasn't an Army Surplus or Urban Outfitter any where on that long walk down the crowded avenue? She'd still have all her powers to 'blissie" humans, eat souls, smite humans and angels at will, she'd just do it in wearing 3 layers of tops, jeans and boots instead of flowing dress. But I digress.

 

Now we have this beautiful stereotypical female with God like powers vs her smaller, nerdy, anxiety-ridden, alcoholic brother.( That's not tropey at all!  And God can't lose, but having the nerdy guy beat the beautiful goddess...looks....bad.

 

So how do they get around it.

 

 

I've always liked that Dean wanted supernatural entities off HIS planet. He's never been a fan of God and Amara SHOULD be on his crap list now that he knows she eats souls and is out to become ONE with him even as he said, "That's not gonna happen". Dean could take up Death's raison d'etre by attempting to "restore the natural order of things" on Earth by getting the "Family of God" off the planet and into the Empty.

 

They could work to build an unsteady alliance of factions.

 

Dean and Sam rally the hunters.

Billie leads the reapers

Cas finds one ally in the lower level angels and they rally the other angels.

Crowley rallies the demons to the cause in whatever way he does

Rowena rallies the MEGA COVEN

 

Pacts would be made that angels go back to being angels and demons go back to being demons. Reapers reap since humans are still dying, witches witch. Sam and Dean go back to saving people and hunting things.

 

But as with all unsteady coalitions...things could start to crumble, but the Family of God is off the planet yet still out there.

 

See also, "All this has happened before and all this will happen again" (Battlestar Galactica 2003 reference)

[DittyDotDot]

I'd say they are using The Book of the Damned as the Macguffin that covers that potential plothole. Personally, I'm okay with that. Plus the Cage was weakened by releasing th Darkness....so, maybe it's easier. But I'd be okay or the Book to be extra special. I'd also be okay if the Book gets destroyed this season. It's too much of a crutch.

 

See, all I can think is: wow, shouldn't have Yellow Eyes or Lilith or Ruby or any of those demons, who spent centuries trying to find a way to release Lucifer and who predate the Book of the Damned, have known of the book's existence? Yeah, the Book of the Damned reasons don't line up any better for me.

[catrox14]

 

I'd also be okay if the Book gets destroyed this season. It's too much of a crutch.

 

 

According to the Stynes it's indestructible.  I'd be willing to wager that the only way it can be destroyed is if Amara destroys it, if she even knows it exists....

 

Or someone with the Mark and the Blade has to "kill" it since it's made from human skin. That might be an interesting choice for Dean to have to make. He could take on the Mark again, get the Blade from Cas and destroy the book which might free him from Amara forever and maybe lock her back up.

 

Of course Lucifer should still have the Mark. It would not surprise me in the LEAST and piss me off to no end...if Sam took on the Mark from Lucifer for reasons because he's decided that he has to be the Lock since he let her out . 

 

Which just opens up that entire other can of worms that if the Mark came from Lucifer.....why Dean isn't the one tied to Lucifer now. Also, why isn't Amara bound to Rowena since Rowena is really the one that freed her.

 

Why do I even think about these things.....

Edited December 21, 2015 by catrox14

[SueB]

I never liked the notion of the Darkness being portrayed as a femme fatale to begin with but here we are, stuck with a conventional trope of a beautiful woman in stereotypical feminine clothing. There is nothing wrong with stereotypical feminine clothing and celebrating the beautiful female form and I do understand it's likely supposed to be "goddess" style clothing. I have wondered why this primordial God-like entity that was locked away at the dawn of humanity before clothing was a thing would choose that particular look. And given her fascination and "bond" with Dean as her first experience with God's creation, she could have modeled her wardrobe choices on Dean's outfit. There wasn't an Army Surplus or Urban Outfitter any where on that long walk down the crowded avenue? She'd still have all her powers to 'blissie" humans, eat souls, smite humans and angels at will, she'd just do it in wearing 3 layers of tops, jeans and boots instead of flowing dress. But I digress.

 

I think the femme fetale excuse is easy (and yes, I think it's an EXCUSE to have sexy evil woman trope).  But the excuse is... she's in a form that is a "match" for what Dean finds attractive.  I really think there IS something there.  Maybe it's part of the design of the Mark and the Lock & Key that they would be "attached/bound/bonded".  As of EP 6, Amara seemed to be trying to rationalize WHY she found Dean fascinating.  But whoever set it up (God maybe?) for them to be "bound", probably put physically attracted to each other as part of it.  Now if Dean had looked like a schlub... IDK... maybe she would have found that attractive too for some random reason.  

 

I AM, however, really hoping that there is a big coming together to "save the planet" with wonky alliances.  

Edited December 21, 2015 by SueB

[catrox14]

 

a form that is a "match" for what Dean finds attractive.  I really think there IS something there.  Maybe it's part of the design of the Mark and the Lock & Key that they would be "attached/bound/bonded".  But whoever set it up (God maybe?) for them to be "bound", probably put physically attracted to each other as part of it.  Now if Dean had looked like a schlub... IDK... maybe she would have found that attractive too for some random reason.

 

 

That implies that anyone who took the Mark was bound in a sexual way to Amara without their consent. Would Amara have even known this herself? Oh that's fucked up. That's the ultimate roofie. 

 

Eww that makes Dean holding Amara as a baby even more creeptastic. Ahh..nope nope nope.

 

Please tell me I'm totally misunderstanding you here, SueB. 

[neverforgottenadam]

I find the Mark of Cain intresing because Amara has it, I wonder if she is the original bearer of the Mark?

An article I was reading about the mark:

 

"But when Cain laments that his own life is in danger, God promises to protect him: “The Lord put a mark on Cain, so that no one who came upon him would kill him” (Gen 4:15).

What is this mysterious mark? The Hebrew word oth can mean a sign or token of any kind, with nothing to indicate if having such a mark is good or bad. Is it a visible mark on Cain’s body? If so, what and where? Or does it refer to some other kind of distinguishing sign?

Jewish and Christian interpreters have proposed various explanations. The Bible connects the mark with divine protection, but some interpreters link it with the curse that God placed upon Cain, imagining it as a badge of shame. One suggestion in a Jewish midrash, for example, is that Cain was punished with leprosy (Genesis Rabbah XXII.12)."

souce: http://www.bibleodyssey.org/people/related-articles/mark-of-cain.aspx

 

It would be intresting if God did give Amara the mark for protection.  

 

This is random but someone is doing a documentary on the Fandom Supenatural and needs help. They needs fan to post videos answering some questions. Here is their tumblr link with more info: sunsetgeneration.tumblr.com 

[catrox14]

It would be intresting if God did give Amara the mark for protection

 

.Amara told Dean she WAS the Mark.  So that means either she is her own Mark or God gave it to her.

 

 

Creatio ex nihilo --

God created the earth out of nothing -- or so your Sunday-school teacher would have you believe.

DEAN

What, so Genesis is a lie, eh?

Shocker.

DEATH (standing up): Before there was light, before there was God and the archangels, there wasn't nothing.

There was the Darkness, a horribly destructive, amoral force that was beaten back by God and his archangels in a terrible war.

 

God locked the Darkness away where it could do no harm, and he created a Mark that would serve as both lock and key, which he entrusted to his most valued Lieutenant, Lucifer.

But the Mark began to assert its own will, revealed itself as a curse, and began to corrupt.

 

Lucifer became jealous of man.

God banished Lucifer to Hell.

Lucifer passed the Mark to Cain, who passed the Mark to you, the proverbial finger in the dike.

(As he’s talking Death walks closer to Dean so that he is right in his face as he says that last line)

DEAN: Well, that is just fan-friggin-tastic, isn't it?

(Dean sits down)

DEATH:So I could remove the Mark, but only if you will share it with another…(Death leans down so the he is eye to eye with Dean)…to ensure that the lock remains unbroken and the Darkness remains banned.

 

re the bolded part:

 

If God gave the Mark to Amara to protect her then the question is how did it assert it's own power. And how would God have not known it was a curse when he made? Unless Death meant that the existence of the Mark in and of itself made it a curse to the bearer of the Mark. 

[SueB]

That implies that anyone who took the Mark was bound in a sexual way to Amara without their consent. Would Amara have even known this herself? Oh that's fucked up. That's the ultimate roofie. 

 

Eww that makes Dean holding Amara as a baby even more creeptastic. Ahh..nope nope nope.

 

Please tell me I'm totally misunderstanding you here, SueB. 

Not really.  I think I'm suggesting that the "connection" is intentional and it's by any and all means to make it strong. Who created the connection and what is it's purpose?  No clue.  

[catrox14]

 

Not really.  I think I'm suggesting that the "connection" is intentional and it's by any and all means to make it strong. Who created the connection and what is it's purpose?  No clue.

 

If sexual drive in Dean is being triggered without his consent or even knowledge part of "any and all means" and he ends up having sex with Amara, that's pretty much rape.  If they go that route the show better damn well call it that.

 

What really bothers me is that if this were a female character being subjected to this kind of mind control and being kissed without consent, well the showrunners would have hell to pay for that.  But Dean is routinely the victim of sexualized violence and it's never addressed as such in the show by anyone else. I wonder if that's because Dean makes defensive jokes when he's being assaulted or because he's a hot guy that likes to sleep around.

[DittyDotDot]

I find the Mark of Cain intresing because Amara has it, I wonder if she is the original bearer of the Mark?

An article I was reading about the mark:

 

"But when Cain laments that his own life is in danger, God promises to protect him: “The Lord put a mark on Cain, so that no one who came upon him would kill him” (Gen 4:15).

What is this mysterious mark? The Hebrew word oth can mean a sign or token of any kind, with nothing to indicate if having such a mark is good or bad. Is it a visible mark on Cain’s body? If so, what and where? Or does it refer to some other kind of distinguishing sign?

Jewish and Christian interpreters have proposed various explanations. The Bible connects the mark with divine protection, but some interpreters link it with the curse that God placed upon Cain, imagining it as a badge of shame. One suggestion in a Jewish midrash, for example, is that Cain was punished with leprosy (Genesis Rabbah XXII.12)."

souce: http://www.bibleodyssey.org/people/related-articles/mark-of-cain.aspx

 

It would be intresting if God did give Amara the mark for protection.  

 

I have a few issues with how the show has handled the Mark of Cain. It's just been too convoluted for me. First, Cain says it was given to him from Lucifer to Mark him as one of Lucifer's minions and I always assumed there was a certain amount of protection implied. Then, Death says that God created the Mark as a lock and key to lock away Amara and gave it to Lucifer to "protect"--whatever that means. Now, Amara is saying she is the Mark. So, the thing called the Mark of Cain actually predates the person it's named for and the thing that locked Amara away is what she is? I don't know, it just doesn't feel like A led to B and then to C. It feels more like they arrived at C and then went the scenic-and-round-about-way to A and then blazed a whole new trail to B that no one can find anymore.

 

As a side note: I was always under the impression God marked Cain, not to protect him as much as, to curse him. It marked him a murderer and cursed him to wander the Earth and never find peace. To kill Cain was to bring on the wrath of God because God didn't want Cain's suffering to end. Translate that to the SPN universe: killing Cain could bring the wrath of God because it releases the Darkness. And, who was it who killed Cain? Hmmm?

[catrox14]

 

killing Cain could bring the wrath of God because it releases the Darkness. And, who was it who killed Cain? Hmmm?

 

Since Dean killed Cain when he was bearing the Mark of Cain that probably mitigates him unleashing the wrath of God since he was still the Lock and Key at that point. It still comes back to Rowena being the one that unleashed the Darkness because she removed the Mark.

Edited December 22, 2015 by catrox14

[SueB]

If sexual drive in Dean is being triggered without his consent or even knowledge part of "any and all means" and he ends up having sex with Amara, that's pretty much rape.  If they go that route the show better damn well call it that.

 

What really bothers me is that if this were a female character being subjected to this kind of mind control and being kissed without consent, well the showrunners would have hell to pay for that.  But Dean is routinely the victim of sexualized violence and it's never addressed as such in the show by anyone else. I wonder if that's because Dean makes defensive jokes when he's being assaulted or because he's a hot guy that likes to sleep around.

I agree. I'm not sure they are going this way, but I presumed she looked that way to attract Dean. Either she knew what Dean likes, whoever set up the connection knew, or some weird instinct made it that way. Whatever path, she fits 'his type'.

I have a few issues with how the show has handled the Mark of Cain. It's just been too convoluted for me. First, Cain says it was given to him from Lucifer to Mark him as one of Lucifer's minions and I always assumed there was a certain amount of protection implied. Then, Death says that God created the Mark as a lock and key to lock away Amara and gave it to Lucifer to "protect"--whatever that means. Now, Amara is saying she is the Mark. So, the thing called the Mark of Cain actually predates the person it's named for and the thing that locked Amara away is what she is? I don't know, it just doesn't feel like A led to B and then to C. It feels more like they arrived at C and then went the scenic-and-round-about-way to A and then blazed a whole new trail to B that no one can find anymore.

 

As a side note: I was always under the impression God marked Cain, not to protect him as much as, to curse him. It marked him a murderer and cursed him to wander the Earth and never find peace. To kill Cain was to bring on the wrath of God because God didn't want Cain's suffering to end. Translate that to the SPN universe: killing Cain could bring the wrath of God because it releases the Darkness. And, who was it who killed Cain? Hmmm?

In the Bible (which they aren't following IMO), the Mark was for his protection when Cain complained he would be killed if forced to wander the earth.

But I think this is another crutch that is what they want it to be. It doesn't really bug me too much because so far I've liked the twists and turns.

[7kstar]

One reason I threw my hands up in the air last season, was it was obvious, that they are making things up at the last minute.

 

They aren't looking that deep into this.  All the subtext and such doesn't hit them, as they change their minds when it suits them. 

 

The one question I have that keeps popping up, and no clue if they are going there...

 

At the end of season 7, they had Dean trapped and Sam all alone.  He abandoned Kevin.  Well what if this is the season where now it's Dean's turn.  Cas is missing or gone, Sam is trapped and Dean is all alone with no one to help.  What will he do?

 

Carver likes to repeat so many things, so I hope that this one isn't one he decides to do.  Of course the reveal will be at the end of the season. 

 

If Amara has already taken Dean's soul and he's fighting it and winning sometimes, the kiss could be a way to weaken his defenses.  To over empower him with a sense of bliss but Dean isn't feeling that way.  Not sure this makes any sense.  I think Carver had an idea of the Darkness and Dean, but is just now filling in the blanks and some parts just are fitting together like he thought they would.  At least that would make me feel better about the missing pieces. 

 

I feel like I have to watch like a child, without too much thought because otherwise it falls apart way too fast.  There have been some cool moments...I just wish there were more.  :)

[catrox14]

 

If Amara has already taken Dean's soul and he's fighting it and winning sometimes, the kiss could be a way to weaken his defenses.  To over empower him with a sense of bliss but Dean isn't feeling that way.  Not sure this makes any sense.  I think Carver had an idea of the Darkness and Dean, but is just now filling in the blanks and some parts just are fitting together like he thought they would.  At least that would make me feel better about the missing pieces.

 

I thought it was interesting that Jared thought the journey to meet Lucifer wouldn't happen until the season finale.  So I wonder if Carver thought Amara and Amara/Dean would be greeted with open arms. But instead it seems that relationship is a big fat NOPE for a large segment of the audience . It's possible they are having to re-tool the season based on that audience feedback.

[SueB]

I thought it was interesting that Jared thought the journey to meet Lucifer wouldn't happen until the season finale. So I wonder if Carver thought Amara and Amara/Dean would be greeted with open arms. But instead it seems that relationship is a big fat NOPE for a large segment of the audience . It's possible they are having to re-tool the season based on that audience feedback.

I see the 'nope' on some boards and Tumblr but not in episode reviews (except Girl Geek Authority) so I'm not sure it's enough to cause an action. 'Bloodlines' was an example of a universal 'nope' and they responded. Charlie's death was mostly nope (with exceptionally strong and vocal nope-ness for many) and that was met with condescending remarks. Amelia was nope'd but her story was ended in the written scripts before the first episode aired -- it's fair to say they haven't mentioned her again but they seem to treat all love interests like that except Jess.

In short, unless the bulk of the creative work is ahead, it won't have much effect IMO. They are likely written thru 15 and she's a one year character. She's way too powerful to be anything but that I believe. The bigger impact will be if they think they are going to get renewed. I imagine they are trying to lock in J2 now and will commit to planning as if renewed by late January/early February.

In sum, I think Carver knows what he is doing with Amara (at the big picture level) and audience reaction is probably not as negative in his mind as it is perceived on Tumblr. I expect renewal/cancellation considerations are the bigger variable.

ETA: I think the 'where's the Angel' outcry after last episode was larger but I think Carver already has his plan for Cas in S11. Sadly, I expect it has only a slim chance of affecting S12 if there is any impact.

Edited December 22, 2015 by SueB

[7kstar]

IA that Carver stays his course no matter what the fans say.  To some degree that is a good thing.  The facts are in this industry, it doesn't matter if you get love or hate it.  If people are complaining and watching, you've done your job.  If they always love it, they'll get bored and move on. 

 

To be honest I think he just likes seeing how the fans react while he shrugs his shoulder and goes about doing his job.  Some writers or actors will never understand how a character becomes so real that you start screaming or crying about them.  They quite frankly don't think that way.  I get it because I've done both.

 

I'm not upset with Amara's storyline like I was with Charlie's death.  I'm ready for Cas's death, but then again what are they really doing with this character.  Sometimes writing the character out is better than hating how useless or little they are being used.

 

The real issue is renewal and J's staying on.  Jared saying he's excited means he feels his character is getting something to do.  Jensen appears to be neutral, which means he could feel either way about his character's direction. 

 

What will be hard to give up is the fun they have on the set, the feeling of family that isn't usually found on a set.  I know one actor said it best when he talked about his two different shows.  "This one is co-workers, the other was family."

 

Carver isn't connected to the family in the same way, as he is in LA.  The only thing I find a little sad is how much energy we spend trying to make his stories make sense.  I just wish he'd put a little more energy into it.   Maybe I'm wrong, but the results on the page doesn't feel like I am.  :(

Edited December 22, 2015 by 7kstar

[catrox14]

 

In sum, I think Carver knows what he is doing with Amara (at the big picture level) and audience reaction is probably not as negative in his mind as it is perceived on Tumblr. I expect renewal/cancellation considerations are the bigger variable.

 

I'm not talking only about Tumblr reaction.

 

Twitter ratings are also factored and those are tracked off the #Supernatural hash tag. The more organic tweets about the show the higher the Twitter ratings. And the showrunners do see those Tweets and those that are tagged to the showrunner.

 

If the sampling of comments that I saw on Twitter after 11.09, that were tagged #Supernatural are indicative of a wider audience reaction, Amara on her own is okay, but Dean with Amara is a NOPE. And not just amongst the Destiel shipping faction. It comes from the consent issues and from Dean having held Amara as a baby mere weeks ago in the show itself. That said, ratings will hold because Carver has cleverly paired that with Sam and Lucifer's confrontation. To get Sam and Lucifer, we must get  Dean/Amara. 

 

I've never met anyone from the show. I've never sat in a meet and greet at a con. I only read and watch interviews and con videos, so my forthcoming opinion is based just on what I read and see from Jensen himself. 

 

My perception of Jensen is that he can be rather snarky and sarcastic(which I find hilarious) but that he also is no dummy. He'll toe the party line diplomatically by saying things like "The brothers are back together where they belong" at the end of "Fan Fiction" and he'll tell Jared at a  "You can have all the emotional stuff. I'll stick to driving the car and bailing your ass out" , yet he'll also express obvious disappointment with the truncation of Purgatory and demon!Dean by saying "I'm not a writer. I don't make those decisions".  IMO, he tries to be diplomatic in his public criticisms of Dean's SLs which might be mistaken for indifference when it might just be him having to accept those SL choices by the showrunners. Of course maybe he really is indifferent now because it's happened like 3 times that his arcs were dropped

 

Carver can change carts midstream if wants to do it.  Charlie's death is the one Jensen was most publicly upset about and he said so in no uncertain terms. Jensen told Singer it was bullshit and to not kill her off. He knows how much time they have to change something having directed many episodes. He understands the logistics behind the scenes. He knew they could reverse it if they wanted to. Carver chose to let it stand. If he wants to dump Amara or anyone else, he can. 

[Diane]

I'm just not seeing all this negativity either.  Most not all, but most everything I am reading, people are saying this is the best season in a few.  They are enjoying it and looking forward to seeing where it goes.  But that is just what I am reading from fans and the critics.

[neverforgottenadam]

IA that Carver stays his course no matter what the fans say.  To some degree that is a good thing.  The facts are in this industry, it doesn't matter if you get love or hate it.  If people are complaining and watching, you've done your job.  If they always love it, they'll get bored and move on. 

 

To be honest I think he just likes seeing how the fans react while he shrugs his shoulder and goes about doing his job.  Some writers or actors will never understand how a character becomes so real that you start screaming or crying about them.  They quite frankly don't think that way.  I get it because I've done both.

 

I'm not upset with Amara's storyline like I was with Charlie's death.  I'm ready for Cas's death, but then again what are they really doing with this character.  Sometimes writing the character out is better than hating how useless or little they are being used.

 

The real issue is renewal and J's staying on.  Jared saying he's excited means he feels his character is getting something to do.  Jensen appears to be neutral, which means he could feel either way about his character's direction. 

 

What will be hard to give up is the fun they have on the set, the feeling of family that isn't usually found on a set.  I know one actor said it best when he talked about his two different shows.  "This one is co-workers, the other was family."

 

Carver isn't connected to the family in the same way, as he is in LA.  The only thing I find a little sad is how much energy we spend trying to make his stories make sense.  I just wish he'd put a little more energy into it.   Maybe I'm wrong, but the results on the page doesn't feel like I am.  :(

You bring up intresting points. I think the writers do pay some attention to the fans because destiel, and wincest were mention on the show as well as ep 200th, it was more of a tribute to the fans

However, I do not like the fact that Charlie, Jo, and Jo's mom died the way they did I felt their characters could have had a more lasting impact on the show.

I am not sure about Castiel's death, I am sure fans will revolt especially Destiel/Castiel fans. I remeber the time he died  but came back due to fan demand.

I spend a lot of time analyzing shows/books, its more of a hobby than anything. I know I am probably wasting time, but its fun making intrepretations as well as reading/talking to people about what their viewpoint about that work is. 

[SueB]

I'm not talking only about Tumblr reaction.

Twitter ratings are also factored and those are tracked off the #Supernatural hash tag. The more organic tweets about the show the higher the Twitter ratings. And the showrunners do see those Tweets and those that are tagged to the showrunner.

If the sampling of comments that I saw on Twitter after 11.09, that were tagged #Supernatural are indicative of a wider audience reaction, Amara on her own is okay, but Dean with Amara is a NOPE. And not just amongst the Destiel shipping faction. It comes from the consent issues and from Dean having held Amara as a baby mere weeks ago in the show itself. That said, ratings will hold because Carver has cleverly paired that with Sam and Lucifer's confrontation. To get Sam and Lucifer, we must get Dean/Amara.

I've never met anyone from the show. I've never sat in a meet and greet at a con. I only read and watch interviews and con videos, so my forthcoming opinion is based just on what I read and see from Jensen himself.

My perception of Jensen is that he can be rather snarky and sarcastic(which I find hilarious) but that he also is no dummy. He'll toe the party line diplomatically by saying things like "The brothers are back together where they belong" at the end of "Fan Fiction" and he'll tell Jared at a "You can have all the emotional stuff. I'll stick to driving the car and bailing your ass out" , yet he'll also express obvious disappointment with the truncation of Purgatory and demon!Dean by saying "I'm not a writer. I don't make those decisions". IMO, he tries to be diplomatic in his public criticisms of Dean's SLs which might be mistaken for indifference when it might just be him having to accept those SL choices by the showrunners. Of course maybe he really is indifferent now because it's happened like 3 times that his arcs were dropped

Carver can change carts midstream if wants to do it. Charlie's death is the one Jensen was most publicly upset about and he said so in no uncertain terms. Jensen told Singer it was bullshit and to not kill her off. He knows how much time they have to change something having directed many episodes. He understands the logistics behind the scenes. He knew they could reverse it if they wanted to. Carver chose to let it stand. If he wants to dump Amara or anyone else, he can.

So you think Jensen is unhappy this year with his storyline?

[catrox14]

 

So you think Jensen is unhappy this year with his storyline?

 

I don't know. He doesn't seem nearly as enthused as he was about the MoC or demon!Dean. I'm sure he's happy to be working and so forth but, I dunno..¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

ETA: I have no idea what's in Jensen's mind, this is all just my interpretation.

 

I think he was super excited about the Baby episode because it was cool new thing they were doing. I would love to know his thoughts about the consent issues with Dean and Amara.  I hope someone asks him about that.

Edited December 23, 2015 by catrox14

[7kstar]

When Jensen is really excited about something it shows in his eyes.  The "Baby" ep is an example of that.  Now it could be he knows something we don't and he's having to be so careful.  I mean his eye opener line was a dead give away, but we didn't put it together in time. I just haven't seen the excitement except for a few things. Totally believe he still enjoys working on the set.  So I don't believe he is bored...but I don't really know him, just been watching his body language during interviews.  I would love to be proved wrong, that he is really excited and just can't tell us.

 

Sure I've enjoyed trying to figure out where they are going and can I pick on the clues.  But I've also seen when they haven't set something up and it came out of the blue and not in a good way.

 

Fans can bring back a character but notice we've only gotten Bobby for a few eps.  But if Carver can't see a reason to keep Cas, I don't think he would have a problem writing him out.  The question is who is he going to kill off, I just don't trust that he doesn't have that up his sleeve.  So far he's done it every season. Cas fits more than Crowley.  I don't think it's Sam's turn yet.

 

But sometimes fans can't get what they want, example many want JDM back.  Of course his schedule and cost makes him impossible but many would love to see him come back. 

 

Jmv and I can be dead wrong.  :)

[mertensia]

In sum, I think Carver knows what he is doing with Amara (at the big picture level) and audience reaction is probably not as negative in his mind as it is perceived on Tumblr. I expect renewal/cancellation considerations are the bigger variable.

Since a huge part of the fanbase thinks any female who gets within arm's length of Dean is evil beyond redemption (something Carver has to be aware of) I can't think Carver gets horrendously upset over the oh noes! over Amara.

[Aeryn13]

 

That said, ratings will hold because Carver has cleverly paired that with Sam and Lucifer's confrontation. To get Sam and Lucifer, we must get  Dean/Amara.

 

That makes it sound like everyone will suffer through boring Dean scenes because thank God we have the gloriousness of Samnatural too. Whereas I for one couldn`t care less about Sam/Lucifer. Lucifer is very much a one-trick pony at this point. His sarcastic/flippant shtick is the same as Crowley`s or Metatron`s. The delivery might be amusing but that doesn`t mean the thing itself doesn`t bore me.

 

In terms of Jensen being bored, I remember the last interview he did where he talked about Dean needing to follow Sam regarding the events of episode 9 and also talked about Dean and Amara. And if he showed any enthusiasm at all, it was about the latter. With the situation right now it`s a given that Dean will spend episode 10 trying to get to/save Sam and I`m already tired of it. I don`t need to see a single frame of that to be bored with it.   

[SueB]

I think there are many who watch for both stories. In reviews, I found it equally balanced but the Lucifer reveal WAS a bigger splash. Sam was left in the Cage. Mark P came back.

And yes, Jensen has stated he likes the action scenes and Jared likes the emotional scenes. I expect that's exactly where the emphasis will be for EP 11.10. So? It DOES flip flop. If you only think one kind of scene is more important than the other than maybe you see one story is more important than the other. Personally, I think Supernatural's success requires both. And I like both.

And I'll have to agree to disagree with Catrox on how many have revulsion in response to Dean/Amara. I find it fascinating. Yes, Dean's in a noncon situation. I would pay money for them to acknowledge that and actually address it. They won't IMO. We MAY however get how Dean feels about Amara controlling him. It'll be a substitute, maybe it'll do. And I get that 'making out' is precisely the gross interpretation that triggers the revulsion. I also suspect that the show runners and networks are counting on it. Not the revulsion, the titilation of Dean sexy times. It's a business. And the audience is broad enough that they'll get that response too IMO.

But since we've put Sam in the Cage at midsession, then this is not going to be the big threat in the back half of S11. It'll be something else. Okay. I'm looking forward to where they are going. THAT was a universal response in most reviews.

[catrox14]

There seems to be a perception that I'm trying to speak for or about the entire audience which is not what I was doing nor intending. I totally agree that everyone watches for different reasons and that we all find different things to enjoy or like.

 

I thought I was being clear before, but in case I was not, I've been referring to a potential Dean/Amara sexual relationship beyond the kissing, which did squick out a large segment of the audience.

 

I said IF the sampling of comments on Twitter is indicative of a larger segment of the audience reaction which is not the entire audience. then Dean/Amara having sex is a big nope, for that segment of the audience. The NOPE factors seem to be centered around Dean's inability give adequate consent; Dean having held that same potential sexual partner in his arms as a baby mere weeks ago; and that she's God's sister.

 

It seems to have little to nothing to do with "oh noes" Amara being a female within arm's length of Dean since there seems to be a decent amount of Dean/Donna shippers out there (/raises hand).

Edited December 23, 2015 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

I think there are many who watch for both stories. In reviews, I found it equally balanced but the Lucifer reveal WAS a bigger splash. Sam was left in the Cage. Mark P came back.

 

I think that's generally the disconnect, though. Reviews don't accurately depict the general consensus of the audience. I heard the same things from reviewers in S8--Supernatural is back; This is the best season Supernatural has had in years; etc, etc, etc--but if you scroll down to read the comments associated with those articles it paints a very different picture.

 

It seems to me, there is no audience consensus in this fandom. I find, on general, for just as many folks disappointed in the show, there's just as many who are cheering it. My personal opinion is this season is no different than any other season since Carver took over the show. The show is long in the tooth and they don't take any real chances anymore but just keeps doing the same things over and over and over again hoping for the same results. And, they get those results; people are still watching.

 

I'm still of the opinion the show isn't going for a sexual interest with Dean and Amara--I think they're trying for that same vibe Sam and Lucifer had in S5--but I'll just say that it doesn't bother me at all that Dean kissed Amara even though he held a baby Amara in his arms a few weeks back. Amara was never really a baby, even when she appeared as one. She's always been older than Dean. And I'm someone who found it creepy Dean was hitting on high school cheerleaders back in S4. But, IMO, that's totally different because they were teenage human girls not an ancient force as old as, or possibly older than, God. ::shrugs::

 

I also don't think Dean has no control at all when it comes to Amara. I think his curiosity about her is clouding his judgement and all and I do think he has some effect on him, but I also wonder if he's not playing along a little hoping to glean useful information out of her? It might not be that he's as helpless as he's coming off as right now.

[Demented Daisy]

Interview w/Ruth Connell -- really, not spoiler-y, but better safe than sorry, I suppose.

 

It never occurred to me that we would ever find out who Crowley's dad is.

[catrox14]

Interview w/Ruth Connell -- really, not spoiler-y, but better safe than sorry, I suppose.

 

It never occurred to me that we would ever find out who Crowley's dad is.

 

I really don't want to know who Crowley's dad is.  I guess this just reinforces my theory that Crowley is Carver's fave character. I mean it seems like he's spent more time on Crowley's character than anyone else on the show

[neverforgottenadam]

There was an article on MTV a while back about Crowley's dad about what actor should portray him. The actress who plays Rowena gave some suggestions.

 

"Unfortunately, one important question fans want to know won’t be answered in the mid-season finale. When asked if we will find out who Crowley’s father is on this season, Connell replied, “I damn well hope so.” It sounds like nothing has been set in stone, but the Scottish actress has some ideas the producers at “SPN” really need to take to heart.

For starters, she thinks William Shatner would be totally down for the role, since he’s always joking with the cast on Twitter. Can you imagine the OG Captain Kirk as the King of Hell’s father?! The TV show crossover fanfic practically writes itself. Connell also said she suggested Michael Fassbender — yes, THE Michael Fassbender — as Crowley’s dad (Mark Sheppard).

But it was her third suggestion that truly piqued my interest. Jared Harris, who played Lane Pryce on “Mad Men” is a good friend of hers. She suggested the actor who played Harris’ father Robert on the AMC drama, William Morgan Sheppard, could play Crowley’s pops. Why choose this man? For starters, he’s Mark Sheppard’s father. What could be better casting than actually casting Sheppard’s old man?

The CW
“I think there’s options about Crowley’s dad,” Connell shared. She recalled a quote Rowena said in a Season 10 episode after Crowley complained he didn’t have a father. Always coy and sassy, Rowena retorted with, “Of course you had a father. You were just conceived during a winter solstice orgy, and it’s not like I was taking names.” Someone needs to file that line under “Best TV Quotes from 2014,” because it’s pure gold."

source: http://www.mtv.com/news/2684442/ruth-connell-suggests-who-should-play-crowleys-dad-supernatural/

[catrox14]

If we're casting from non-cast on Twitter, my vote goes to Orlando Jones. I mean we don't really know what Fergus looked like, we just know what Crowley the meat suit looks like. And Rowena claims to be sexually progressive...so maybe she hooked up with a Moor. :)

[SueB]

If we're casting from non-cast on Twitter, my vote goes to Orlando Jones. I mean we don't really know what Fergus looked like, we just know what Crowley the meat suit looks like. And Rowena claims to be sexually progressive...so maybe she hooked up with a Moor. :)

I support this theory with two thumbs waaaaaaaaay up.  But I love Orlando Jones and if he could get in there and join in the snark-a-thon of the MacCloud family.... I'm on board.  

 

Imagine Christmas dinner???? (I know, I know... but still... fun).

[rue721]

I love Orlando Jones, and if he wants to come on the show, more power to him :) Though I feel like he might not be up for an "evil and awkwardly old son" storyline, given how last season of Sleepy Hollow went down.

 

Back to the point, though:  I thought that Rowena didn't know who Crowley's father was? Didn't she say that she conceived during some kind of massive "black magic" orgy and the father could have been basically anyone?

[Demented Daisy]

There was an article on MTV a while back about Crowley's dad about what actor should portray him. The actress who plays Rowena gave some suggestions.

 

 

That's the article I posted.  ;-)

 

With everything else the show has done during Carver's tenure, I expect Crowley's dad to be some notorious historical figure like John Dee.  I suppose Crowley could start having daddy issues like everyone else, then.  *sigh*

[catrox14]

That's the article I posted.  ;-)

 

With everything else the show has done during Carver's tenure, I expect Crowley's dad to be some notorious historical figure like John Dee.  I suppose Crowley could start having daddy issues like everyone else, then.  *sigh*

If this comes to pass, then I might have to begin speculating that you are an SPN writer who is dropping spoilers or an intern that cribs ideas from the forum!

[Demented Daisy]

Alas, I am neither.  Though you wouldn't be the first to ask/suspect so.  :-)

[neverforgottenadam]

John Dee would be an intresting choice for Crowley's dad.

It would be cool/strange at the same time if someone on the forum did work for the show. I have heard S.E Hilton wrote fanfiction for Supernatural with a fake alias.

Happy holidays to everyone on the Supernatural forum.

Edited December 24, 2015 by neverforgottenadam