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Spoilers With Speculation

SueB

By SueB
in Supernatural

ohjoy
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Please keep your speculation and comments on the end of Supernatural in the Supernatural Ending topic. Use this topic here or the Bitter Speculation topic for discussion of the upcoming season only. As always, keep Bitch vs. Jerk discussion in its own topic.

Thank you.

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catrox14

catrox14

Well.... it was likely more of a dream than a vision in Dean's mind. So for him to jump to "maybe it was Micheal" would have been a big leap IMO.  Yes, WE know the Cage has been rattled but Dean doesn't.  So... will they draw the connection later? Likely.  But that Dean's mind didn't go their right away doesn't bother me.  That was like 6+ years ago.... a LOT of water and hallucinations under the bridge since then.  

 

 

 

No matter how much time has passed, it's reasonable to think that the unleashing of something more powerful than God would maybe trigger them to reflect back on that  one time at band camp they started the apocalypse and were hunted, tormented and coerced by archangels into being Chosen Vessels one of who used their own father's meatsuits. Unless their memories are messed up or they are each still hiding something. 

 

I'm saying that I think the lack of a mention of that pretty important thing in their lives has to be on purpose. If turns out not to be, then it's bad writing at best and canon failure at worst.

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PeterKahlke
PeterKahlke

NEXT ON SUPERNATURAL Sam and Dean search for the yellow-eyed thing that killed their mom.

devlin
devlin

I don’t care who JA is going to be playing. I could seriously watch this guy read the phone book and be completely enthralled. I am just looking forward to some powerhouse acting full of nuances by wh

gonzosgirrl
gonzosgirrl

So, so over it. You're a big boy - if you don't agree, put up or shut your judgey piehole.

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enaiowen

enaiowen

Michael appeared to Dean in young!John's meatsuit in Song Remains the Same.

In Baby, Dean asks with all earnestness "Why would somebody dress up like Dad..to give you a message?"

Why would Dean not immediately remember that Michael did EXACTLY that with him in Song Remains the Same?

I see Dean's point here being that, considering their history, if something wanted to communicate with Sam, there would be much better forms for it to take.

For Dean, John might make sense, but as Dean said, Sam doesn't exactly have a great track record when it comes to listening to their dad.

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catrox14

catrox14

I see Dean's point here being that, considering their history, if something wanted to communicate with Sam, there would be much better forms for it to take.

For Dean, John might make sense, but as Dean said, Sam doesn't exactly have a great track record when it comes to listening to their dad.

 

Dean didn't really listen to John either in the end but Michael used young!John's meatsuit anyway. It doesn't make anymore sense than Sam not seeming to understand what those visions of him being tortured were about in ep 1 which seem fairly obviously about his time in the cage.

 

My side-eye is directed towards Dean being perplexed why someone would dress up like John, not with Sam seeing John.

 

It's especially noticeable when they use the Swan Song speech in the beginning of the episode. I mean how does that not provoke the audience to be reminded of what happened in s5 which hello was John being Michael's meatsuit and Sam being Lucifer's meatsuit.

 

I'm hoping it's a purposeful omission that will be revealed down the road. And I have a thought that I have to work out about why I think it was left out.  If it's not on purpose, then yeah IMO that's poor writing.

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SueB

SueB

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I think they've given the audience all the clues that this is 'Comminication from the Cage'. I don't think the boys have put 2+2 together yet.

Sam is hopeful, and thus wouldn't equate 'messages from Lucifer' with what he hopes is a good thing. Dean doesn't know cage-vision happened. And we don't know if Dean told Sam that the last time the Darkness was defeated it included God AND the Archangels.

Dean is in denial about Sam getting helpful messages. He's convinced they are on their own again so he's not really embracing the vision as real. His energy was on debunking the vision. Suggesting it was Micheal would be supporting the visions are actually happening.

Finally, I liked the way Robbie wrote Sam relaying his vision. It was all a jumble, like Sam was just pulling it together in his head, as he described it to Dean. With Dean's pre-disposition that they aren't going to get help, that contributes to Dean dismissing vision IMO.

Personally, I think it won't come together for the boys until EP9. But EP6 may be a big hint (waif Amara plus Misha said in his Meet and Greet at MinnCon that EP6 was myth arc).

At least, IMO, Sam isn't hiding his visions. That's an improvement from the past. And Dean? I think he's not so sure of what he saw and has a healthy dose of pre-disposition AGAINST the idea that he would help Amara. Stubborn, but not necessarily stupid.

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catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

Tweet from Thomas J. Wright (director for "Baby" and for EP11.10):

https://twitter.com/T2000patrone/status/661217389527207936

 

Lucifer is IN THE HOUSE!

 

Poor Mr. Wright.  He's brand new to twitter.  He's older.  I can just see the phone calls starting now.... 

 

Ehhhh, I don't buy into the 'I'm too old and don't understand technology' stereotype.  These guys are older but they are NOT stupid men.

 

I'm starting to think all these "spoilers" are intentional leaks to generate buzz. 

 

I mean would Bob Singer really spoil the Cage on accident because he messed up on social media and then just leave the pic on his Instagram account if that wasn't supposed to happen?  Now, maybe Bob was demoted and was like 'Fuck you, guys. I'm gonna sneak shit out because I'm pissed that you fired me' , but I don't think that's the case. Same with Matt Cohen's tweet. He tried to walk it back but IMO it's more effective to go "OOPS" and then SPN fans go crazy trying to figure it out and they tune it to see if anyoen was lying on SM. 

 

 

And...if this was a spoiler that wasn't supposed to get out, then IMO CW/SPN PR would have made them delete the tweets, even though the tweets live forever.  And they haven't deleted the tweets yet

Edited by catrox14
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SueB

SueB

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True.  Regardless of careful strategic plan or lack of SM awareness... I'm pumped up for EP9/10!  

So... if the cage and Luci is a mid-season reveal... the finale has to be even BIGGER.  

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Aeryn13

Aeryn13

Since the Cage and Lucifer is strictly nd solely Sam-centric - and harkens back to my most hated episode of all time - this doesn`t get me excited for anything. The only reason I kinda like it is that it probably means the visions didn`t come from God. 

 

Hopefully, those episodes will also have something interesting for Dean to do. Like finally freaking more scenes with the Darkness and showing what their ominous connection is like.  

 

 

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catrox14

catrox14

Since the Cage and Lucifer is strictly nd solely Sam-centric - and harkens back to my most hated episode of all time - this doesn`t get me excited for anything. The only reason I kinda like it is that it probably means the visions didn`t come from God. 

 

 

Yeah I'm having the same trepidation...

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Aeryn13

Aeryn13

(edited)

Well, if it has equal time for both storylines, okay. But all things Lucifer and the Cage just has nothing whatsoever to do with Dean so there is really no need for him to be in any scenes concerning that. If episodes 9 and 10 focused on just that, Dean would get the usual "we take a break from the actual story" busywork scenes JUST to be onscreen. But not for any narrative reason.

 

And it would even be ridiculously easy to remedy some thing. Like for example, if Dean is to be involved in defeating the Darkness - and he better be important because of his connection to her - then explain why right now he can`t be contacted from the "opposing side" since the Darkness would get a heads up or something. 

Edited by Aeryn13
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trxr4kids

trxr4kids

All of these interviews, photos and tweets are making me think they plan on bringing Adam/Michael back. That is to say I think Dean's connection to the darkness will go the way of his connection to the apocalypse/ role as true vessel.

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Omegamom

Omegamom

Color me surprised. Not.

But I'm happy. I thought he'd be in the finale of Season 10, but they went and pulled the darkness out of their butts instead of following through with Cain's threat/warning/prophecy...

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7kstar

7kstar

To me it is almost screw it...They won't promote us, lets do this.  But to have denial on their side it's glitches and mistakes.  :)  We are getting some very effective spoiler alerts/promos.  Kind of cool.

 

 

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Mick Lady

Mick Lady

All of these interviews, photos and tweets are making me think they plan on bringing Adam/Michael back. That is to say I think Dean's connection to the darkness will go the way of his connection to the apocalypse/ role as true vessel.

 

I agree trxr4kids! I so hope this is true, it never felt right to me that the boys left Adam behind. That's not how they treat family!

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SueB

SueB

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I expect Adam to be a drooling ball of pain by now -- or else he's not in the Cage at all and Micheal sent his soul back to Heaven.  You just don't come back from a millennium with Micheal and Lucifer using you as a chew toy.

 

*sigh*

 

Regarding Dean's story.. I don't think they'd hire Emily Swallow and then just drop her after a couple of episodes.  I think she's the Big Bad for the season and thus Dean's relationship with her will play out through all of S11.

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catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

I agree trxr4kids! I so hope this is true, it never felt right to me that the boys left Adam behind. That's not how they treat family!

Unpopular opinion: screw Adam. He was never really family. 'Family don't end with blood,but it doesn't start there either' - Dean s10. Adam was perfectly happy to Fuck over the brothers when they tried to help him and he himself told them to go to hell and that he didn't think of them as family. He only cared when he started getting his ass kicked my Zachariah. I'll be mighty unhappy if they bring back Adam.

Edited by catrox14
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enaiowen

enaiowen

(edited)

Unpopular opinion: screw Adam.

Not quite as unpopular as you might think Catrox. I agree with every word you said and I really hope we don't see him again.

Edited by enaiowen
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smree

smree

Not quite as unpopular as you might think Catrox. I agree with every word you said and I really hope we don't see him again.

 

Yeah I've no interest in seeing or hearing about Adam again. I'd be happy if they just ignored his existence. Hoping they close the Adam thing off with a quick 'Oh he was never in the cage with us. Soul was sent straight to heaven'

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catrox14

catrox14

 

Regarding Dean's story.. I don't think they'd hire Emily Swallow and then just drop her after a couple of episodes.  I think she's the Big Bad for the season and thus Dean's relationship with her will play out through all of S11.

Is she supposed to be a big deal?They hired Tim Omundson whom I'd say is a big deal and only used him twice. I'd never heard of the actress before.

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SueB

SueB

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Is she supposed to be a big deal?They hired Tim Omundson whom I'd say is a big deal and only used him twice. I'd never heard of the actress before.

She was a regular on a network TV series for a year (The Mentalist, CBS). I'm not sure she's a "big" deal but it was SPN advertised a a bigger role when casting went out last summer. 

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Aeryn13

Aeryn13

 

I'm not sure she's a "big" deal but it was SPN advertised a a bigger role when casting went out last summer.

 

I don`t think that means much at all. The Darkness will likely be around till the Finale but that doesn`t mean Dean`s story will. Maybe John has another hidden son that can totally replace him. Sam`s part IMO is set with Lucifer and the cage memories and everything. Season 5 re-do and all.

 

As for Adam, it`s fine by me if they say he somehow is at peace in heaven but I don`t want to see him ever again. Still salt to the wound. 

 

And really IF Dean got to have the actual arc with the actual big save in the end, then I would happily trade off every single character on this show burning in hell for all eternity after the show ends. Including Dean. Priorities and all.

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trxr4kids

trxr4kids

I agree trxr4kids! I so hope this is true, it never felt right to me that the boys left Adam behind. That's not how they treat family!

Sorry, I don't want Dean's story to be turned over to Adam, again! I just worry based on the spoilers and past show history that's where this is going.

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Mick Lady

Mick Lady

(edited)

Great, everyone disagrees with me! I have an unpopular opinion!

 

I just always felt for Adam because he was thrust into something our Boys grew up with. I don't know how I would react if I found out about all this at once!

 

As for the family thing, I'm probably a bit too personal with it. I come from a very close family, and we would do anything for each other. Especially after our parents passed away. Took awhile for Mick to get used to!

Edited by Mick Lady
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catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

 

I just always felt for Adam because he was thrust into something our Boys grew up with. I don't know how I would react if I found out about all this at once!

 

I respect your unpopular opinion.

 

For me the difference is that Adam wanted NOTHING to do with the Winchesters. He made that abundantly clear. Actual!Adam was going to say yes to see his dead mother again and for no other reason. It was only Ghoul!Adam that played around with "Oh my brothers??! YAY' to screw with Dean and Sam.  Actual!Adam was very lucky that  Dean and Sam felt any kind of responsibility towards him. It wasn't Adam or Dean and Sam's fault that Zachariah or rather Castiel on Zachariah's orders ripped Adam out of his grave. 

Edited by catrox14
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DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

(edited)

Great, everyone disagrees with me! I have an unpopular opinion!

 

I just always felt for Adam because he was thrust into something our Boys grew up with. I don't know how I would react if I found out about all this at once!

 

Nah, I'm with you Mick Lady. IMO, Adam only wanted nothing to do with the Winchesters because Zachariah had gotten to him first and poisoned the well. Plus, he had a few daddy issues with John anyway. Why would he not assume these guys, who he didn't know from Adam (heh!), aren't what an angel of the Lord told him? But, once he realized Zachariah was a lying liar who lies, I think he started to come around that he may have been wrong about his half brothers too.

 

However, I hope they stay away from Adam, myself. If he's still in the cage, he'd have to be a demon by now and probably gunning for Sam and Dean--and I for one don't really want to see that. If he never was in the cage, it opens a whole other can of worms probably left closed.

 

But, then again, I think them going back to the cage is a mistake, so...

Edited by DittyDotDot
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MYFAKETVBOYFRIEND

MYFAKETVBOYFRIEND

Sorry, I don't want Dean's story to be turned over to Adam, again! I just worry based on the spoilers and past show history that's where this is going.

I never got the whole "oh noes pooooor Adam is still in the cage bring him back" rant. Its over and done with. I don't even like that they are alluding to the cage. uh

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Mick Lady

Mick Lady

Nah, I'm with you Mick Lady. IMO, Adam only wanted nothing to do with the Winchesters because Zachariah had gotten to him first and poisoned the well. Plus, he had a few daddy issues with John anyway. Why would he not assume these guys, who he didn't know from Adam (heh!), aren't what an angel of the Lord told him? But, once he realized Zachariah was a lying liar who lies, I think he started to come around that he may have been wrong about his half brothers too.

 

However, I hope they stay away from Adam, myself. If he's still in the cage, he'd have to be a demon by now and probably gunning for Sam and Dean--and I for one don't really want to see that. If he never was in the cage, it opens a whole other can of worms probably left closed.

 

But, then again, I think them going back to the cage is a mistake, so...

 

Aw Dot! You're my Pal, ain't ya!?

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SueB

SueB

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Hmmm. Brianna B (sheriff Donna) tweeted she could 'live tweet because she was 'working'. Then she sends a tweet to celebrate upcoming Plush by uploading a picture of her and J2 on Instagram.

Does this mean she's back for EP12? That would be bad because they she may be Charlie-d (aka killed). I and don't want her soulless.

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catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

Hmmm. Brianna B (sheriff Donna) tweeted she could 'live tweet because she was 'working'. Then she sends a tweet to celebrate upcoming Plush by uploading a picture of her and J2 on Instagram.

Does this mean she's back for EP12? That would be bad because they she may be Charlie-d (aka killed). I and don't want her soulless.

 

She's been writing another show so that might be what she meant by "working". The picture could have been from the "Plush" episode.

Edited by catrox14
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Aeryn13

Aeryn13

(edited)

Going by the promo pictures http://www.spoilertv.com/2015/11/supernatural-episode-1106-our-little_5.html for the next episode, Dean will have another scene with Amara. Hallelujah. His mytharc connection is the only thing that interests me so I wasn`t looking forward to having to wait till the Fall Finale. I hope they say what their connection is. Does she have a part of his soul? Does she want his soul? I mean, there has to be some reason beyond gratitude, especially when he didn`t even have anything to do with the removal spell. 

 

Maybe the MOC somehow figures into how God tricked her. It must have meaning to her on some level.

Edited by Aeryn13
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Diane

Diane

http://tvline.com/2015/11/05/arrow-who-dies-season-4-spoilers/

 

 

Question: I am dying to find out more about Sam’s visions this season on Supernatural. What can you tell us about that? —Elena M.
Ausiello: Sam will be “exploring” his visions and “trying to figure out who’s talking to him and what they mean,” star Jensen Ackles previews. “So he takes it upon himself to go there without Dean, and it leaves me in the dust. Then, of course, Dean has to follow, [which leads to] some interesting alliances.”

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catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

 

Question: I am dying to find out more about Sam’s visions this season on Supernatural. What can you tell us about that? —Elena M.

Ausiello: Sam will be “exploring” his visions and “trying to figure out who’s talking to him and what they mean,” star Jensen Ackles previews. “So he takes it upon himself to go there without Dean, and it leaves me in the dust. Then, of course, Dean has to follow, [which leads to] some interesting alliances.”

 

Well, there we go. LOL Sam and Dean separated and on different sides of the fight I'm guessing.

 

I'm gonna reallllly need to know soon if Dean knows about Billie the Reaper's threat to send them into the Empty when they die....

 

If for some insane reason, the blind drop about a series co-lead being killed off and it's SPN,  I'm going with it being Jensen/Dean.

 

I'm envisioning a Romeo and Juliet style cliffhanger. I'm thinking somewhere along the way, Dean reacquires the Mark as part of a way to put the Darkness back. Sam is killed in front of Dean, Dean doesn't know about Billie's threat and summons a reaper. Billie shows up and tells him nope, nothing doing. Sam's gone. And as far as she knows it's true.

 

Dean is distraught, but can't live with the Mark and wants to put the Darkness back, so he offers himself to be sent into the Empty to keep from hurting someone else and keep the Darkness locked away and maybe just to have his molecules near Sam.  But instead Sam was somehow saved,(Cas maybe)  and shows back up, just as Dean is sent into the Empty.  Fade to black.....

Edited by catrox14
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SueB

SueB

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Interesting pics.  They are in Crowely's lair.  I wonder if Crowley called for help.  Also, they're in jail, in Fed uniforms.  Now the door is open so they could be simply there investigating -- but Sam looks pretty damn dour. The BTS had Amara on the streets.  And Cas looks isolated to to the Metatron story, boo hiss. Hopefully we'll have some starting point before they separate.

 

"he takes it upon himself ...to follow" -- yeah, not happy with THAT wording. Does sound like Samsel in Distress. However, it's about time we get some of these "alliances" going. So that's good.

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SueB

SueB

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https://twitter.com/cw_spn

 

Slightly extended promo provides more perspective:

- Amara on the street

- Castiel asking about the Darkness (BTW.... I think Cas GETS the tablet but lets Metatron stay human and free)

- Sam and Dean, I think, torture a demon and find out Crowley has Amara ... and they head into that spooky looking house which turns out to be Crowley's lair.  So they go in demon-killing devices loaded and the conflict ensues

- Raise your hand if you think the bulk of Dean's conversation w/ Amara is when Sam is knocked out.

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Aeryn13

Aeryn13

 

If for some insane reason, the blind drop about a series co-lead being killed off and it's SPN,  I'm going with it being Jensen/Dean.

 

They said the death would happen in the Fall Finale. We already know Jensen is shooting episode 10 and 11. Where are they at now? We even already got a Dean spoiler for ep 11. The blind item said that at least it would look as if the character was truly dead. I think that implies being gone from the show for a few eps at minimum. So to me, SPN is out of the running. Most popular guess currently seems to be Once Upon a Time, Hook. 

 

 

yeah, not happy with THAT wording. Does sound like Samsel in Distress. However, it's about time we get some of these "alliances" going. So that's good.

 

He could have just meant Dean has to follow because with Sam is where the story is at. And if they wanna keep Dean in it, he has to go where Sam is.

 

If Sam just finds a way to stroll into the cage and talk to Lucifer and Michael, I`ll laugh and laugh. It would be worse then Crowley and Cas trying to find a way to Purgatory for a entire Season and then two years later we find out there is the easiest door ever in Crowley`s backyard. But this bts-pic from Bob Singer sure made you wonder.

 

Also the episode title is "Brother, were art thou", right? I had hoped it would be Dean because last Season the mid-Season Finale should have focused on Dean and the MOC but actually was all about Claire and Cas. Now Dean has - knocking on wood - some connection to the mytharc at this point but I`m not entirely sure how good those episodes 9 and 10 will be for Dean. Jared likes them so I`d say heavy mytharc Sam-slant with sidekick!Dean.    

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SueB

SueB

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(edited)

African Dream Root.  It just occurred to me... Sam probably does some hoodoo or something to get to his visions. While on a vision quest... Dean decides to go in to Sam's head using... African Dream Root.  Thus sharing in Sam's vision.  Thoughts???

Edited by SueB
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catrox14

catrox14

Okay, in case you haven't noticed I'm kind  of obsessed with figuring out what the hell is up with Dean and Sam this season. Yes everyone knows I think things are squirrelly.

 

One thing I've noticed is that it seems like someone is peering out through slats of some kind like looking out through bars in a cage or a prison. It's not just a quick glimpse. The camera zooms in on their faces. I don't think it's just a cool camera shot.

 

11x01 - Dean looks out through the blinds in the hospital at the 'zombie' hoards coming to the hospital. Cas in the barn with light coming through the slats in the barn casting shows like prison bars

11x02 - The baby is looking through her basinet and the shadows are like prison bars

11x02 - All around Sam are the shadows of the blinds casting shadows like prisons.

11x03 - Rowena looks through the security gate where Dean and Cas are as she locks them in the storage area.

11x04 - I can remember anything like that in Baby other than everything being through the windows.

11x05 - Dean looks out the window peering through the slats in the blinds at the LIzzie Borden Inn.

 

I feel like this is intentional. A parallel? Foreshadowing a visit to the cage? Are they already imprisoned in some way by the Darkness or their own minds?   What do you guys think?

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SueB

SueB

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Okay, in case you haven't noticed I'm kind  of obsessed with figuring out what the hell is up with Dean and Sam this season. Yes everyone knows I think things are squirrelly.

 

One thing I've noticed is that it seems like someone is peering out through slats of some kind like looking out through bars in a cage or a prison. It's not just a quick glimpse. The camera zooms in on their faces. I don't think it's just a cool camera shot.

 

11x01 - Dean looks out through the blinds in the hospital at the 'zombie' hoards coming to the hospital. Cas in the barn with light coming through the slats in the barn casting shows like prison bars

11x02 - The baby is looking through her basinet and the shadows are like prison bars

11x02 - All around Sam are the shadows of the blinds casting shadows like prisons.

11x03 - Rowena looks through the security gate where Dean and Cas are as she locks them in the storage area.

11x04 - I can remember anything like that in Baby other than everything being through the windows.

11x05 - Dean looks out the window peering through the slats in the blinds at the LIzzie Borden Inn.

 

I feel like this is intentional. A parallel? Foreshadowing a visit to the cage? Are they already imprisoned in some way by the Darkness or their own minds?   What do you guys think?

I think Serge is a f*cking genius and YES, he's doing this on purpose.  NICELY SPOTTED.

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