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I hope he is stunting for another character otherwise stupid LokSat is stupid is gonna be sending the same assassin to finish the job he started?? Stealth....

Well he has also done basic stunts on several other episodes, and IMDb's info has been a bit wayward at times this season with guests being added to the wrong episode, Brian Poth's character Oscar von Eckland has been added by someone to 8x22 when the leaked Call Sheet clearly showed him appearing in 8x21, unless of course his character is connected to Loksat and does actually turn up in the finale too.

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With the way Hawley has had "fun" with several old episodes and storylines this season what if the "cliff hanger involving witsec" turns out to be the appearance of Joanna Beckett in the final scene so that all of Beckett's raison d'etre for becoming a cop and her obsessive behaviour has been based on an untruth. Now that would be "fun". LOL.

 

But as CheshireCat said how have TV Line considered the multiple endings, have they hedged their bets and placed Castle in all the categories that could apply at the moment and then will cull the lists as they get more info. I think that is their normal practice in previous years, to add and delete as new info comes to light. Wasn't the Caskett engagement a late addition in a previous year?

Edited by westwingfan
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They definitely add stuff, I don't remember them deleting things. Although I guess if they remove a death and add someone else's death, we wouldn't know.

It seems unlikely they'd add a whole category like witness protection if it wasn't pretty set in stone.

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Just riffing on witness protection … Beckett could not be a cop any more.  Castle might be able to write but nothing similar to his mysteries.  Picturing a crossover with "My Name Is Earl" in which they work with Crab Man (who is also in WP).  Fanfic anyone?

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I just want some sort of interesting twist to it - if I've had to endure this rubbish all season long I would really like some payoff!! Somehow I'm not sure these showrunners have the chops to pull it off.

You mean like Lanie and Perlmutter are LokSat? <g.

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It truly baffles me at times because Hawley and Winter wrote some great episodes in earlier seasons. Winter especially wrote some of my favs. How is it that these two have screwed up so spectacularly.

Being a showrunner is a very different proposition to a writer churning out one or two episodes a season with no requirement to be thinking about the bigger picture. Didn't Hawley give it a go at showrunner on one or was it two previous shows? And they both tanked pretty quickly, may be that's a sign right there despite his ego telling him otherwise - he's just not up to the job. 

 

Also it really can't have helped to have both your leads (which the show is painfully reliant on) allowed by their paymasters to spend less time filming together and generally more time off, that must have been a gut punch when they had to formulate their plans for the season, their hands were tied.  

Edited by verdana
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With the way Hawley has had "fun" with several old episodes and storylines this season what if the "cliff hanger involving witsec" turns out to be the appearance of Joanna Beckett in the final scene so that all of Beckett's raison d'etre for becoming a cop and her obsessive behaviour has been based on an untruth. Now that would be "fun". LOL.

That would be a true jump the shark moment right there but somehow entirely fitting for this season.

 

All I hope for from LokSat now is a nice twisty, shocking reveal.....someone we have already encountered. Even though I don't really hate the character of Vikram I would kind of like it if he turned out to be dodgy but I'm not sure the way they have (poorly) managed this story arc would allow for that??

 

 

Allow for that? Sure why not, when you've been wading in this much shit all season, anything is possible. You're not meant to be thinking about if it makes sense or fits with the story being told, you may give yourself a brain aneurysm if you did. 

 

I want Vikram to suffer horribly and die even if he's innocent lol, I'm vindictive that way about poorly developed, irritating TV characters. 

Edited by verdana
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Being a showrunner is a very different proposition to a writer churning out one or two episodes a season with no requirement to be thinking about the bigger picture. Didn't Hawley give it a go at showrunner on one or was it two previous shows? And they both tanked pretty quickly, may be that's a sign right there despite his ego telling him otherwise - he's just not up to the job.

Also it really can't have helped to have both your leads (which the show is painfully reliant on) allowed by their paymasters to spend less time filming together and generally more time off, that must have been a gut punch when they had to formulate their plans for the season, their hands were tied.

Totally agree thats its a different animal just being a writer vs a showrunner (or i could imagine) however they have say over all scripts so should they not at some point say "guys, this doesnt fit" or "doesnt have consistency with the past". Their whole plot line for S8, i think we can all agree, hasnt made much sense so as a good writer, when you sat down at the start to write your bible, it should read like a good story. Not like the mess we've seen.

And yes, there appears to be a reason Hawleys other attempts at being showrunner tanked.

I can also agree totally that the leads tied their hands but that still doesnt excuse sloppy story telling to me

Edited by CastleSeason8
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Totally agree thats its a different animal just being a writer vs a showrunner (or i could imagine) however they have say over all scripts so should they not at some point say "guys, this doesnt fit" or "doesnt have consistency with the past". Their whole plot line for S8, i think we can all agree, hasnt made much sense so as a good writer, when you sat down at the start to write your bible, it should read like a good story. Not like the mess we've seen.

And yes, there appears to be a reason Hawleys other attempts at being showrunner tanked.

I can also agree totally that the leads tied their hands but that still doesnt excuse sloppy story telling to me

It truly boggles the mind that this is the best that supposed professionals could come up with. No matter what this is a business. A multimillion dollar business in fact. So somebody somewhere had to believe in this enough to possibly put their job on the line. And that somebody had to convince all the other people that this was the route to go. I wish I could have been a fly on the wall in some of those meetings. But since I wasn't I have to imagine the meeting selling it to the network.

 

Hawley: A couple episodes after Beckett leaves a lady with a super nose smells Becketts pheromones...

 

Winter: Yeah, yeah and at the end of the episode BECKETT SMELLS CASTLE'S SHIRT!

 

Network exec (wiping the tears from his face): Brilliant, just brilliant.

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It truly boggles the mind that this is the best that supposed professionals could come up with. No matter what this is a business. A multimillion dollar business in fact. So somebody somewhere had to believe in this enough to possibly put their job on the line. And that somebody had to convince all the other people that this was the route to go. I wish I could have been a fly on the wall in some of those meetings. But since I wasn't I have to imagine the meeting selling it to the network.

Hawley: A couple episodes after Beckett leaves a lady with a super nose smells Becketts pheromones...

Winter: Yeah, yeah and at the end of the episode BECKETT SMELLS CASTLE'S SHIRT!

Network exec (wiping the tears from his face): Brilliant, just brilliant.

You have to wonder if they are even capable of realising what they are putting out this season is pretty rubbish....at all levels - show runners, network, actors, writers - they all can't seriously believe they are making the best version of this show??

Can they...?

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You have to wonder if they are even capable of realising what they are putting out this season is pretty rubbish....at all levels - show runners, network, actors, writers - they all can't seriously believe they are making the best version of this show??

Can they...?

I think they do. Read their tweets. They think they are on fire this year.

Hard to believe, but i think thats the truth. They just keep patting eachother on the back and ignore the rest

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It truly boggles the mind that this is the best that supposed professionals could come up with. No matter what this is a business. A multimillion dollar business in fact. So somebody somewhere had to believe in this enough to possibly put their job on the line. And that somebody had to convince all the other people that this was the route to go. I wish I could have been a fly on the wall in some of those meetings. But since I wasn't I have to imagine the meeting selling it to the network.

 

Hawley: A couple episodes after Beckett leaves a lady with a super nose smells Becketts pheromones...

 

Winter: Yeah, yeah and at the end of the episode BECKETT SMELLS CASTLE'S SHIRT!

 

Network exec (wiping the tears from his face): Brilliant, just brilliant.

 

They did the shirt smelling thing on the X Files when Mulder was abducted! It's so wonderful! /sarcasm on

 

 

Not. It doesn't replace character to character interaction.

I think they do. Read their tweets. They think they are on fire this year.

Hard to believe, but i think thats the truth. They just keep patting eachother on the back and ignore the rest

 

Scully warned Mulder about being on fire. Guess she needs to cross shows to mention to warn these guys ;).

 

Man, I don't envy you guys right now.

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I can also agree totally that the leads tied their hands but that still doesnt excuse sloppy story telling to me

 

No it shouldn't but if some fans out there truly believe Hawley and Winter just sat up one day and thought "ooh yes lets separate our two leads this season who are the bedrock of the show!" on a whim thinking it might be a super cool idea is being naive. They did it for a reason - they chose a crap way to go about doing it I won't argue with that - but I'm convinced they didn't have much choice and had to think of something.

 

In a way the actors are calling the shots because they've (apparently) agreed something contractually with the network which then forces the showrunners hand and that has repercussions, whilst you could argue in the early days the shoe was on the other foot and the showrunners were in charge and had greater leeway in their storytelling choices - someone like Katic was probably thrilled just to be hired forget about making demands. 

 

Pity they made such bad choices, I'd like to hope they will quietly admit to themselves in private they fucked up but I'm not sure they will, they both seem delusional in the interviews I've read. 

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No it shouldn't but if some fans out there truly believe Hawley and Winter just sat up one day and thought "ooh yes lets separate our two leads this season who are the bedrock of the show!" on a whim thinking it might be a super cool idea is being naive. They did it for a reason - they chose a crap way to go about doing it I won't argue with that - but I'm convinced they didn't have much choice and had to think of something.

 

In a way the actors are calling the shots because they've (apparently) agreed something contractually with the network which then forces the show runners hand and that has repercussions, whilst you could argue in the early days the shoe was on the other foot and the show runners were in charge and had greater leeway in their storytelling choices - someone like Katic was probably thrilled just to be hired forget about making demands. 

 

Pity they made such bad choices, I'd like to hope they will quietly admit to themselves in private they fucked up but I'm not sure they will, they both seem delusional in the interviews I've read. 

VINCEW, ON 06 APR 2016 - 11:35 PM, SAID:

Compare that to what has been put forth this season and last by ABC network execs allowing both lead actors to work under restricted clauses for selfish personal reasons which caused a predictable drop off in ratings to the point that at the halfway mark of season 8, first run episodes started drawing less live audience numbers than more recent repeat episodes broadcast within the last year.

 

verdana. I blame the leads for all of this mess, but it is still hard to understand what actual leverage was used by them against the network besides nothing better to replace them given such a predictable lost in ad revenue from the dramatic ratings drop. After Castle, neither one of them will make it as a lead character on another show whether network or cable. IMO. 

Edited by VinceW
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I really don’t understand the reasoning here. I wouldn't blame the actors for exercising their basic rights to renegotiate their contracts (after 7 seasons?) just because their priorities in life don’t match my viewing pleasures. Who is more selfish in that scenario?

 

So far, the ratings are pretty stable this season. The drop already happened before season 8 started. (Incidentally after a season’s finale without a cliffhanger:-)

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I really don’t understand the reasoning here. I wouldn't blame the actors for exercising their basic rights to renegotiate their contracts (after 7 seasons?) just because their priorities in life don’t match my viewing pleasures. Who is more selfish in that scenario?

 

So far, the ratings are pretty stable this season. The drop already happened before season 8 started. (Incidentally after a season’s finale without a cliffhanger:-)

My viewing pleasure is not the issue. I stopped watching the show LIVE after 8x3 when it became clear where the new show runners were going with the story and I could not support the decision. There was a big drop before season 8, but after the fall hiatus break this season, the live numbers initially dropped nearly 40% viewers from the season 7 fall finale. At that point, the live audience numbers were at a level where first run episodes reached lower numbers than more recent repeat episodes broadcast within the last year. That is stunning and not steady. The BTS issues are another story.

Edited by VinceW
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I really don’t understand the reasoning here. I wouldn't blame the actors for exercising their basic rights to renegotiate their contracts (after 7 seasons?) just because their priorities in life don’t match my viewing pleasures. Who is more selfish in that scenario?

 

I agree, and don't understand this either.

 

 

After Castle, neither one of them will make it as a lead character on another show whether network or cable. IMO.

 

Disagree.  In my opinion they will both come out of Castle with their cred intact, and where they go from Castle only time will tell.

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I agree, and don't understand this either.

 

 

Disagree.  In my opinion they will both come out of Castle with their cred intact, and where they go from Castle only time will tell.

It depends on what happened BTS to bring about season 7 and season 8.

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Quote

    

    After Castle, neither one of them will make it as a lead character on another show whether network or cable. IMO.

 

Disagree.  In my opinion they will both come out of Castle with their cred intact, and where they go from Castle only time will tell.

I also disagree. An actor who can raise a million dollars for a crowdfunding project in 24 hours has a pretty solid fan base. And a strong work ethic and networking skills based on all the outside projects (voice work, video games, comicons, web appearances, live theatre) on his Imdb profile.

 

I just noticed that both SK and NF have 'producer' credits now. I understand this is fairly meaningless from a responsibility perspective, just a way of paying them money outside of the basic contract, but when did that happen?

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verdana. I blame the leads for all of this mess, but it is still hard to understand what actual leverage was used by them against the network besides nothing better to replace them given such a predictable lost in ad revenue from the dramatic ratings drop. After Castle, neither one of them will make it as a lead character on another show whether network or cable. IMO. 

I don't blame the actors for everything but based on what I've seen and the reactions at least online, the network made a big mistake agreeing to let them have so much time off. Having less than ten minutes Caskett time per episode has become the norm and it's highly noticeable given the various ways the writers make attempts to cover this up - and the harder they try the more obvious it becomes.

 

As for the ratings I'm no expert so leave the analysis to others but S8 has been a train wreck in my estimation.

Edited by verdana
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I just noticed that both SK and NF have 'producer' credits now. I understand this is fairly meaningless from a responsibility perspective, just a way of paying them money outside of the basic contract, but when did that happen?

I thought they both became producers at the start of this season, that's when I first saw their names listed on the credits as such. 

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I don't blame the actors for everything but based on what I've seen and the reactions at least online, the network made a big mistake agreeing to let them have so much time off. Having less than ten minutes Caskett time per episode has become the norm and it's highly noticeable given the various ways the writers make attempts to cover this up - and the harder they try the more obvious it becomes.

 

As for the ratings I'm no expert so leave the analysis to others but S8 has been a train wreck in my estimation.

I agree that more time off is a factor but to me this still comes back mainly to decisions made by the show runners past & present biting them in the ass. It was their choice to not flesh out any of the other characters & put all the focus on Castle & Beckett. With that being said I can't believe that even dealing with the on screen time constraints they couldn't have come up with a better way to handle it than a pitiful rehash of lies & secrets keeping them apart.

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I don't blame the actors in the sense that I think they have a right to negotiate the best deal they can. Who wouldn't want more money for less work? But I do think that there was a negative impact on the show because of that.  It's just how things work out sometimes.....the only way a show can stay on is without the thing that made it great. It's more about cause and effect than blame.

 

However, I also think the writers are not that great and could probably have done much better even with the restrictions of actors. Things like lack of continuity, too much exposition, etc. And that's not even getting into the stupidity that is LokSat or what they have done with Alexis this season.

 

So, maybe if we only had one of these factors (actor restrictions vs. weak writers) it may have been a better season, and if we had neither of the factors it would have been an amazing season. But we had both, so we got.....Season 8.

 

But honestly, I still like the characters enough to want to keep watching.

Edited by KaveDweller
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OLV added locations to their calendar showing that they would be shooting up until Apr 13, which would be Day 10 for the finale, but Eakorn from the crew has tweeted this

 

Erik Altstadt ‏@EAkorn 4h4 hours ago

Last #fraturday of season 8! Day 7 of 9. #Castle. So many things going on...

 

You'd think he should be more reliable than OLV, so maybe the contract negotiations have been concluded and they don't need to shoot those multiple endings now. They were due to film in an alley on Apr 13 so maybe Beckett has been given a reprieve. LOL

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OLV added locations to their calendar showing that they would be shooting up until Apr 13, which would be Day 10 for the finale, but Eakorn from the crew has tweeted this

Erik Altstadt ‏@EAkorn 4h4 hours ago

Last #fraturday of season 8! Day 7 of 9. #Castle. So many things going on...

You'd think he should be more reliable than OLV, so maybe the contract negotiations have been concluded and they don't need to shoot those multiple endings now. They were due to film in an alley on Apr 13 so maybe Beckett has been given a reprieve. LOL

OR confirms rumors its been renewed and they are going with series cliffhanger. Im not too optimistic about Becketts fate. Edited by CastleSeason8
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I don't want to give spoilers for other shows, but TVLine confirmed who their blind item about a lead character dying was about, and it is definitely not Beckett (or anyone on Castle). 

It was Abbie on Sleepy Hollow.

 

Which I realize doesn't confirm that Beckett doesn't also die. But is still sort of a good sign.

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I don't want to give spoilers for other shows, but TVLine confirmed who their blind item about a lead character dying was about, and it is definitely not Beckett (or anyone on Castle). 

It was Abbie on Sleepy Hollow.

 

Which I realize doesn't confirm that Beckett doesn't also die. But is still sort of a good sign.

I think the blind item has been superseded by TV Line's May spoiler card which is currently predicting 14 fatalities and 11 possible fatalities, but I'm currently still optimistic that Beckett won't leave the show in a box. LOL

Edited by westwingfan
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I think the blind item has been superseded by TV Line's May spoiler card which is currently predicting 14 fatalities and 11 possible fatalities, but I'm currently still optimistic that Beckett won't leave the show in a box. LOL

Dont forget witness protection. I think thats a possibility here. Not a box, but way to write her out
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I think the blind item has been superseded by TV Line's May spoiler card which is currently predicting 14 fatalities and 11 possible fatalities, but I'm currently still optimistic that Beckett won't leave the show in a box. LOL

 

You know.....I really like TV Line as a site, but sometimes I also really hate TV Line. They need to stop teasing bad things happening on my shows!

 

It's crazy that there are at least 14 deaths. This week two shows I watch killed off a major character and they don't even count as that 14 because sweeps hasn't started. It's going to be a rough month.

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It's also possible that the show will film beyond day 9 (Tuesday) but the leads are not involved in that filming. For example, the alley could be a crime scene where the murder/main episode action takes place. 

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You know.....I really like TV Line as a site, but sometimes I also really hate TV Line. They need to stop teasing bad things happening on my shows!

 

It's crazy that there are at least 14 deaths. This week two shows I watch killed off a major character and they don't even count as that 14 because sweeps hasn't started. It's going to be a rough month.

 

Apparently last year there ended up being 52 deaths!!  It's like they're only just getting started with the initial list. ;)

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Dont forget witness protection. I think thats a possibility here. Not a box, but way to write her out

 

Still not buying that whatsoever. In the very unlikely event S9 is just Castle, I think it'll be death (doubtful) or divorce. If Beckett is in Witness Protection, that will hamper Castle with any future romance, which, like it or not, I think TPTB would want to go forward with.

 

With all that said, I still think both are coming back. Money overcomes principles a lot of the time.

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It's also possible that the show will film beyond day 9 (Tuesday) but the leads are not involved in that filming. For example, the alley could be a crime scene where the murder/main episode action takes place. 

I was going with the crew guy who said "Day 7 of 9" (Sounds like a member of the Borg Collective LOL) which has been his usual way of indicating how many days they will be spending on the episode.

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Still not buying that whatsoever. In the very unlikely event S9 is just Castle, I think it'll be death (doubtful) or divorce. If Beckett is in Witness Protection, that will hamper Castle with any future romance, which, like it or not, I think TPTB would want to go forward with.

 

With all that said, I still think both are coming back. Money overcomes principles a lot of the time.

Are you discounting the possibility that the cliff hanger could be the reveal of someone who has been in witness protection, not necessarily that it will be someone going into witness protection. The TV Line article says "Number of cliff hangers involving witness protection". Joanna Beckett lives! LOL After some of the storylines these showrunners have floated this season I wouldn't discount anything now.

I don't know enough about other shows to speculate who else might be in the frame for this.

Edited by westwingfan
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Still not buying that whatsoever. In the very unlikely event S9 is just Castle, I think it'll be death (doubtful) or divorce. If Beckett is in Witness Protection, that will hamper Castle with any future romance, which, like it or not, I think TPTB would want to go forward with.

With all that said, I still think both are coming back. Money overcomes principles a lot of the time.

I really, really want to believe you - and Im sure you know a hell of a lot more about these things than i do but it just doesnt add up to me. The lessened screen time this yr, the way they are handling Caskett, like they are preparing us. Stana packing up books, talk about other plans, subtle hints to me all season. Again, just speculation on my part - definitely moreso then last year. But like i said, Im far from an expert on these things - and will break out the good stuff if Im wrong.
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Are you discounting the possibility that the cliff hanger could be the reveal of someone who has been in witness protection, not necessarily that it will be someone going into witness protection. The TV Line article says "Number of cliff hangers involving witness protection". Joanna Beckett lives! LOL After some of the storylines these showrunners have floated this season I wouldn't discount anything now.

I don't know enough about other shows to speculate who else might be in the frame for this.

 

I was just talking about Beckett entering that. If it is her mother, just flush this show. Or find Fonzie to jump over it.

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The TV Line article says "Number of cliff hangers involving witness protection". Joanna Beckett lives! LOL After some of the storylines these showrunners have floated this season I wouldn't discount anything now.

I don't know enough about other shows to speculate who else might be in the frame for this.

 

Joanna Beckett lives and she is actually Locksat. Now that would be a twist. I know it makes no sense, but that doesn't seem important to these writers.

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Still not buying that whatsoever. In the very unlikely event S9 is just Castle, I think it'll be death (doubtful) or divorce. If Beckett is in Witness Protection, that will hamper Castle with any future romance, which, like it or not, I think TPTB would want to go forward with.

 

With all that said, I still think both are coming back. Money overcomes principles a lot of the time.

If it is a divorce, it seems unlikely that the audience would learn about it by season end, but rather there would be a significant time jump at the start of season 9 to reveal it. Either way death or divorce would not happen this season else realistically, how many viewers would show up next season to watch an aging Castle PI and no Beckett. 

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I'm not sure who it was (may be it was a supposed "insider") but when the future of the show was being discussed one time they said you'll know when it's over or someone is moving on because cast and crew (crew especially) start looking for new jobs as soon as they get the heads up the show is toast, they can't afford to hang around, Hollywood is super competitive and they need to find a new gig on a different show.

 

Everyone seems suspiciously quiet right now and okay there is time for that to change of course but this convinces me even more they're pretty confident they'll all be coming back in some capacity despite some of the "I hope we'll be back next season!" comments, that's par for the course saying that to fans around finale filming time. 

 

The only person who might be sweating right now is the actor playing Vikram or may be that's a case of wishful thinking on my part.

 

As for Stana and any suspicious "so long farewell.." style posts and pics may I remind everyone she did exactly the same thing last season! She also has this pattern when the minute filming ends she immediately heads off to do other filming projects often abroad.  May be this time she'll take her hubby with her. 

Edited by verdana
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My viewing pleasure is not the issue. I stopped watching the show LIVE after 8x3 when it became clear where the new show runners were going with the story and I could not support the decision. There was a big drop before season 8, but after the fall hiatus break this season, the live numbers initially dropped nearly 40% viewers from the season 7 fall finale. At that point, the live audience numbers were at a level where first run episodes reached lower numbers than more recent repeat episodes broadcast within the last year. That is stunning and not steady. The BTS issues are another story.

If you pitch the season’s opener against the lowest performer thus far (which was also the odd one out on a Sunday), yeah, that happened. Otherwise, pretty steady (more in the Ratings Thread).

 

I’m not a happy camper this season either. I don’t care about Caskett-time, and my annoyance doesn’t come from conspiracies or separations or introductions of new characters but the way the show is handling these initial ideas. Likewise I wouldn’t assume that everybody else is unhappy with this season and close to leaving. And I don’t think there is one recipe to make them all happy again.

 

As for alleged BTS issues, I lack data to come even close to some form of speculation what exactly those issues could be, let alone allegations. I don’t know them, never met them, I don’t know their work environment, their approach to work etcetera.

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The only person who might be sweating right now is the actor playing Vikram or may be that's a case of wishful thinking on my part.

 

Nah, he has his AT&T commercial here in the US (which airs with annoying frequency IMO), so he can get more work like that and be just fine.

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Someone at the Emerald City Comicon just asked a trick question about guest actors Nathan would like to see on Castle in season 9. She was very stealthy about it. But I don’t think there were any clues in his answer. Very funny and charming panel.

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I wonder if the showrunners are paying attention to what's happening in the Sleepy Hollow fandom right now. Their new showrunner and network made a colossal mistake in the finale, and gave the finger to every one of us that was keeping it alive. They blew it up and I assume if they get a 4th season it will be with a completely new premise. Sound familiar?

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If Joanna Beckett is alive after all this time, I think I'll be done with this show. That would be far too much for me.

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