Foxcatcher (2014)

[Betweenyouandme]

(2014) I forgot to add this is the topic title.

I saw this movie today and loved it. I thought the performances were very strong. Steve Carrell just oozes eeriness in this movie. His eyes look so dead. I couldn't stop watching the screen. To me, this is the best movie "about sports" I've ever seen.

Edited December 16, 2014 by Betweenyouandme

[KittyS]

Steve Carell was great - so creepy and awkward. I thought the scenes between the two brothers were fascinating - the rough/gentle, hate/love physical touches said a lot. I thought Channng Tatum was surprisingly good and surprisingly unsexy. Mark Ruffalo can do no wrong in my book.

I know this was loosely based on a true story so it was interesting to me to read that DuPont's mother actually died prior to his bringing the wrestlers to the farm. I can see where the writers couldn't resist adding some mommy issues scenes to the story.

[Shannon L.]

I wasn't sure how I felt when I left the theater.  It wasn't as intense as I thought it would be and I thought it was really slow.  However, I thought the performances were outstanding.  Had I not known that was Mark Ruffalo going in, it would've taken me a while to figure it out. Steve Carrell really played creepy well--in fact, Mark Schultz said that when he first saw and heard Steve in character, he had to do a double take. 

 

When I got home, I researched the actual events and now I have a better appreciation for the story.  My heart aches for any family who has to see a loved one killed right in front of them.  Nice, bittersweet touch to have the words P.U kids written on the back of David's hand.  I know that was a real thing and I appreciate the attention to detail (I saw an interview with David's wife and she said that they were careful about even the smallest details).

[Betweenyouandme]

Yep, when i first saw the preview, I didn't recognize Steve Carrell at all. No shred of humor.

In fact, right before the ending climax where he's sitting in the room after watching the documentary, the loneliness and deadness was palatable. I appreciated the slowness of the movie because it built those intense and extreme emotions in me.

I felt empathy for every character. Of course, I don't justify many actions, but I do think that even though I have so many questions about each character/person, I did get enough information that their actions and reactions seemed true. Although wrong, the actions came across as genuine.

I purposely did not read anything about the true story going in, which I also think made me get into the movie more. I had no clue what was going to happen.

My two favorite scenes were the one I listed above where Carrell is sitting alone and also when Mark and Du Pont are on the porch and they're talking about not having friends. Because this was based on a true story, especially, I am thinking about how things could have gone differently. The 3 main characters were all so lonely at varying degrees; it was a co-dependent relationship. Any of them could have backed out at any time. I know Dave said he didn't want to keep moving his kids, but there was something else going on there.

I was devastated by the ending. I wish Du Pont and Mark had found a love that could have changed things. But, when they were done, they were done. No going back in time or getting over the pain.

I found this entire story moving and profound. I can't recall another movie that portrayed deep loneliness this well. It is a much overlooked thing at the damage it does to a person.

Edited December 16, 2014 by Betweenyouandme

[JBC344]

I liked the movie overall and thought that the performances were really great.  What I had trouble with and was surprised at myself about was how much I didn't like the "ambiguity" that Bennett Miller decided to lead with.  For me I would of liked Bennett to take a more direct stance on the intimacy of John and Mark's relationship.  Going in I wondered if he would portray them as lovers and then heard that Bennett decided to only hint at their relationship. 

 

Going in I thought ok, that seems like a fair stance.  There is no real definitive proof that John and Mark were sleeping together but them having a sexual relationship has always been a part of the "suspected" story.  Then watching the movie I felt like Bennett kept "strongly hinting" at it, but I think the movie would of benefitted if he just lead with it.

 

The scenes that stuck out to me as "strong" are what I have now referred to as the "boy toy" scenes.  This is when Mark and John are getting close.  Mark has now frosted his tips, the scene where they are on the porch.  Mark half naked, snorting cocaine, serving John his drink, the affectionate leg grabbing as John tells the story of his "paid" childhood best friend.

 

Then the scene where John comes to Mark's house late at night to "wrestle".  Then they cut to the gym where they are fully clothed but John is pinning Mark down in a wrestling move and then we cut to the look of shame on Mark's face. 

 

For me the hints at the "homosexuality" were a little heavy handed that I would of rather had Bennett make a directing choice and have the actors play out that aspect of the storyline.  Interesting to add that Channing participated in the Hollywood reporter roundtable discussion and the interviewer was asking about the experience and I felt Channing was being very respectful of Mark in saying that he still seems very guarded about his time with John, and that even in Mark's book he doesn't really dig deep into the fallout with John.  I felt that was Channing sort of giving a "nod, wink" to the possible validity of it but also trying to be respectful of how open he felt Mark was with him.

 

I knew of this story in vague terms and of course knew about the murder before going in to see it, but what I found out afterward that really shocked me was how loose the movie did play with a lot of the timeline.  Certain liberties you expect in a bio movie but others were clearly made for storyline purposes.  John's mother being dead before he met Mark and David.  Mark never actually living at Foxcatcher Ranch, and the most surprising to me was that in the movie they portray it as John killed David shortly after Mark leaves the ranch and breaks off ties with him.  When in reality there was a seven year gap between those events where David stayed on as a coach at Foxcatcher Ranch before John killed him.

[Betweenyouandme]

I'm okay with the ambiguity, particularly if that's all is known about the true story anyway. But also I'm okay with it because the sexual aspects seemed very secondary in this story. I think the real point was the deep seated emotional issues the two brought to the table. This was a co-dependent relationship involving two very hurt people. Being gay or bisexual was completely separate from the main point, as I see it. Their pain was what brought them together not their sexuality or a real love.

I think most everything except the cocaine/alcohol use was ambiguous, which worked, because these characters are a mystery. We saw glimpses of their lives and we saw their actions, but there were only a couple of scenes where dialogue or what we saw explicitly gave us complete insight into what was going on in their minds.

ie when Du Pont is mad about the weight gain but we don't hear what he says, when mark binge eats and tears apart his room. We see that these things are happening, but we don't know the internal dialogue. We can only assume. And, I think that's what makes the movie so powerful. We are left to interpret all the scenes with projection of how we, the viewer, would conceptualize the scene. And there is way more to it than a literal play by play.

I seriously was blown away by this movie. You take out the wrestling and the murder, and I felt like they were stealing moments of my own life. The way they depicted that brand of sheer loneliness, low running fear, and emotional need was astoundingly accurate, at least as I've experienced it.

...even how Du Pont kept all these ties to police and military. He wanted that power over people that he could never really get or use to make people love him. When he came close with Mark and still lost, he realized things were never going to change. You know that saying about how you should never remove all hope from a person? Once that hope is shattered, something bad is going to happen. The whole movie felt like someone had sliced open their arm and blood was flowing out all over the screen.

Idle hands and power of the mentally unstable

Edited December 16, 2014 by Betweenyouandme

[JBC344]

I'm okay with the ambiguity, particularly if that's all is known about the true story anyway. But also I'm okay with it because the sexual aspects seemed very secondary in this story. I think the real point was the deep seated emotional issues the two brought to the table. This was a co-dependent relationship involving two very hurt people. Being gay or bisexual was completely separate from the main point, as I see it. Their pain was what brought them together not their sexuality or a real love.

I think most everything except the cocaine/alcohol use was ambiguous, which worked, because these characters are a mystery. We saw glimpses of their lives and we saw their actions, but there were only a couple of scenes where dialogue or what we saw explicitly gave us complete insight into what was going on in their minds.

ie when Du Pont is mad about the weight gain but we don't hear what he says, when mark binge eats and tears apart his room. We see that these things are happening, but we don't know the internal dialogue. We can only assume. And, I think that's what makes the movie so powerful. We are left to interpret all the scenes with projection of how we, the viewer, would conceptualize the scene. And there is way more to it than a literal play by play.

I seriously was blown away by this movie. You take out the wrestling and the murder, and I felt like they were stealing moments of my own life. The way they depicted that brand of sheer loneliness, low running fear, and emotional need was astoundingly accurate, at least as I've experienced it.

...even how Du Pont kept all these ties to police and military. He wanted that power over people that he could never really get or use to make people love him. When he came close with Mark and still lost, he realized things were never going to change. You know that saying about how you should never remove all hope from a person? Once that hope is shattered, something bad is going to happen. The whole movie felt like someone had sliced open their arm and blood was flowing out all over the screen.

Idle hands and power of the mentally unstable

Interesting, see usually I would be ok with the ambiguity of their sexuality but I felt here it was probably a big reason as to why Mark was so hurt/angry/disappointed and felt betrayed by John and a big reason why he couldn't share that with his brother.  I think their relationship was very complicated and sexuality may have been a big part of that and why it was so hard to repair.

[Betweenyouandme]

Interesting, see usually I would be ok with the ambiguity of their sexuality but I felt here it was probably a big reason as to why Mark was so hurt/angry/disappointed and felt betrayed by John and a big reason why he couldn't share that with his brother. I think their relationship was very complicated and sexuality may have been a big part of that and why it was so hard to repair.

Thank you for adding this. I hadn't thought of it that way. I am glad that there was ambiguity throughout versus just about their sexuality.

I kind of think that while Mark was deeply hurt Dave was there, Mark didn't know exactly why he was so hurt. He kept saying it was because he wanted to be his own person, but who was that to him? He said he wanted to win in wresting. But, what else?

I don't think Mark felt any self worth except through the sport. When Du Pont meets Dave in the hotel and commands Mark to "stay," Mark's reaction to that was very interesting to me. While it sounded like a command to a dog, and a lot of people would have been annoyed or offended by it, Mark instead yells at his brother and his wife. Was he displacing the anger or was he that respectful of Du Pont or was it a form of massochism?

Mark hoped for Du Pont's loyalty and agreement not to bring Dave. But, Du Pont knows best. It obviously broke up their routine and bond. It was confusing to me as to why. I mean, I have ideas. But, there are multiple reasons.

In my heart, I think Mark wanted to be submissive to Du Pont. I agree that Mark felt like he couldn't act the same way when Dave arrived or be in the right headspace. It was a betrayal and crossed Mark's boundary. He'd do drugs, be talked to like a dog, etc., but he required it to just be Mark and Du Pont, Du Pont and Mark. I think not only could he not get into the right headspace, but it would have been embarrassing to be so submissive in front of his brother. I think being gay wouldn't have been as hard to talk about for Mark as his submissive role.

To be blunt, and I'll likely regret saying this, but here goes. The reason I'm personally hesitant to commit to sexuality being a large part of this particular situation is the following: my dad's relationship with me. I am very submissive to him and there have been some extremely questionable moments between us. However, it's not sexual. It's emotional attachment. Now, I'm not saying sexuality between Mark and Du Pont played no role. I think it certainly did. I just think the larger picture was so more completely encompassing for these two. And, I have felt like that before, so I know it's possible to be completely intertwined with someone in ways that go beyond sexual attraction. But, I know my father and I are not Mark and Du Pont, so I respect and understand other opinions and possibilities. I guess I'm also just interpreting it as what the film meant to me.

I was thinking, and I also want to be clear that I do not think being involved in any BDSM relationship means someone is unstable. I'm only saying that Mark and Du Pont seemed unstable and seemed to me to have a Dominant/submissive relationship. In their case, I don't think it was a healthy relationship because they weren't emotionally able to be healthy in any type of relationship.

Edited December 16, 2014 by Betweenyouandme

[Shannon L.]

Your discussion has made me reconsider how I felt about the movie.  One thing I didn't think of when I was writing my post was how uncomfortable I felt watching it--which is obviously how you're supposed to feel.  It doesn't have to do with a possible sexual relationship between them--that doesn't phase me in the least--but it was the ambiguity of it, I guess.  I felt like Mark wasn't that smart and was being taken advantage of--like when he told Dave that Du Pont told him to name a price and he said $25,000 because it was the first big number to come to his mind.  It was like Du Pont knew that he could get this kid to do what he wanted.  That's why, when the cocaine and the tip toeing around a sexual relationship came to play, I started getting uneasy.  When it came to him getting upset that he was bringing in Dave, it didn't cross my mind that it was because of his friendship (possibly more) with Du Pont--I thought it stemmed from the fact that he said he always felt like he lived in Dave's shadow and by then he'd been out of it for a while and didn't like the idea of being shoved into the background again. 

 

I did miss a couple of minutes because I had to run to the bathroom and hoped I picked the right time, but it sounds like I missed something important.  I think it was right after the helicopter ride on the way back from the event.  They were showing the outside of the ranch and I'd hoped that if I ran and made it quick, I wouldn't miss much.  When I got back, I saw a close up of Mark's face on the floor (turn to the side, facing us), then it went to the hair cutting scene.  Was it the scene referenced above about him getting Mark into a wrestling hold that I missed? 

[Betweenyouandme]

It sounds like it to me, Shannon L.

Du Pont wakes Mark up in the middle of the night, saying gear up, practice in the gallery. The next scene shows the two in the dark with Du Pont on top of Mark. Their clothes were on. Mark did have an emotional look on his face. There was also very heavy breathing sounds before the camera panned down to show the two of them.

[JBC344]

It sounds like it to me, Shannon L.

Du Pont wakes Mark up in the middle of the night, saying gear up, practice in the gallery. The next scene shows the two in the dark with Du Pont on top of Mark. Their clothes were on. Mark did have an emotional look on his face. There was also very heavy breathing sounds before the camera panned down to show the two of them.

Yeah, that was definitely the scene we referenced above.  It was very ambiguous; you could read it as friendship and comfortability that John was so pumped up about wrestling with Mark that he couldn't wait until morning, or a lover wanting intimacy during the night.  Really great discussion, thanks everyone.

 

Betweenyouandme, thank you for sharing your personal insight.

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Carell was part of the Epix network's Hollywood sessions for Lead Actors.

 

He revealed that he didn't go after this project, the Director wanted him.

 

Dude is so damn humble and seems kinda shocked over all the buzz about his performance.

 

Always felt he had the chops for drama, after seeing him in Little Miss Sunshine and Dan in Real Life.

 

When asked about how he dealt with playing someone such as DuPont, he spoke of flying back to LA most weekends.   Spending time with his family would help him shake it off for a while, before going back to Pittsburgh. 

 

I really want to see this film, think it will be a game changer for Carell.

Edited December 30, 2014 by MrsRafaelBarba

[absnow54]

He revealed that he didn't go after this project, the Director wanted him.

I'm not surprised. Through the film, I found that DuPont was a lot like Michael Scott -- in the most extreme way. The scene where he takes over the wrestling training to show off to his mother and is completely incompetent, as well as the scene where he admits that his mother paid kids to be his friend were two moments that really stood out to me.

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Carell's eyes have this quiet sadness about them.

 

Not to say that he's  an unhappy person in RL, but  I usually want to hug the man when I see him. 

 

Though I hear he plays a total asshat in The Way Way Back.

 

 And like mentioned above, his eyes look stone cold dead from what clips I've seen of Foxcatcher.   

Edited December 30, 2014 by MrsRafaelBarba

[Shannon L.]

 

I'm not surprised. Through the film, I found that DuPont was a lot like Michael Scott -- in the most extreme way.

You know, I never thought of that, but you're right.  The more I think about this movie, the more I like it. 

[A Boston Gal]

Carell's eyes have this quiet sadness about them.

 

Not to say that he's  an unhappy person in RL, but  I usually want to hug the man when I see him. 

 

Though I hear he plays a total asshat in The Way Way Back.

 

 And like mentioned above, his eyes look stone cold dead from what clips I've seen of Foxcatcher.   

 

He was a TOTAL asshat in The Way, Way Back. I wanted to slap him silly. 

[Bruinsfan]

Oh yeah. I wanted Toni Collette to grab a log out of one of those beach bonfires and set him alight.

[NoWillToResist]

If not for his distinctive voice, I don't think I'd have known it was Steve Carrell until the credits rolled. He was almost unrecognizable.

I didn't know anything going into this movie, so I was attentive at the start. But, I have to confess, it lost me. The two leads were just so bleak and devoid of any charisma or spark or life that I found it painful to watch. This movie was just...unrelentingly bleak and I do not respond well to such movies.

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Mark Schultz went on major Twitter rant yesterday.

 

Against director Bennett Miller, for implying there was a sexual relationship between him and DuPont. 

 

Vowing to destroy his career.

[JBC344]

That is strange considering Mark was on set everyday and I'm sure read the script.  Maybe he wasn't happy after he saw it edited together. Ironically from what I have read, Mark's autobiography is incredibly vague about what came between him and Jon, which is why so many people before Bennett Miller thought that there may have been a sexual relationship between the two. Funny thing for me is, if there wasn't a sexual relationship that to me makes the events 10 times stranger.

That is strange considering Mark was on set everyday and I'm sure read the script.  Maybe he wasn't happy after he saw it edited together. Ironically from what I have read, Mark's autobiography is incredibly vague about what came between him and Jon, which is why so many people before Bennett Miller thought that there may have been a sexual relationship between the two. Funny thing for me is, if there wasn't a sexual relationship that to me makes the events 10 times stranger.

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Curious to see if this controversy hurts the film during Awards season.

[absnow54]

From his facebook rant, it seemed like he was most offended by his brother being portrayed as more talented than him.

[Shannon L.]

 

Mark Schultz went on major Twitter rant yesterday.

 

Against director Bennett Miller, for implying there was a sexual relationship between him and DuPont.

 

Vowing to destroy his career.

Is it horrible that that news doesn't surprise me?  The only thing I was surprised about is what JBC344 brought up--that he was on set every day so why did it take so long for him to become vocal about it?  Maybe it was an issue with having to see it edited together.

[JBC344]

Wow, I just read through Mark's rant and it looks like he had no problems with the many inaccuracies about the film and publicly was a huge supporter.  It wasn't until movie critics were reporting the "homoerotic" subtext that Mark became enraged.  Again still strange to me that it wasn't when he himself was either on set, or saw the movie multiple times but when critics made mention of it.

 

He does admit that he had an issue with the "late night wrestling" scene and asked Bennett about cutting it, but Bennett said the scene was more about Dupont being obsessive.  I have respect for Mark but it just seems to me that this whole thing is now boiling down to "The jock is upset that people may call him gay" so he is lashing out at the movie he fully supported up until a few days ago. 

 

I think I would have more respect for Mark if he came out and said that there wasn't a sexual relationship (which I don't know if I believe) but can understand how due to the nature of events he can see how others may have thought that.  And then maybe explained a little about how his and Jon's relationship was a little unorthodox but not gay. Maybe make it a teaching moment and a little insight into his life at the time.

[Bruinsfan]

Seriously, I've thought there was something going on between the two since I first saw the news story about DuPont years ago.

[Rick Kitchen]

Mark Schultz has a new book out on the subject, so I'm sure this rant isn't going to hurt the sales of his book any.

[Bruinsfan]

I saw it yesterday - very good, very bleak. Steve Carrell was pretty much unrecognizable, and so uncomfortable to watch and listen to.

 

If I were Mark Schultz I might be less concerned about implications of a sexual relationship with DuPont (imho the movie didn't spell one out, but it kind of makes things fall more into place if you assume it) and more upset that it portrayed me as a surly lunkhead who was dismissive and disrespectful to my sister in law, nephew, and neice.

[BetterButter]

'Foxcatcher' Subject Mark Schultz Apologizes for Criticism: "I Was Temporarily Insane"

[MrsRafaelBarba]

'Foxcatcher' Subject Mark Schultz Apologizes for Criticism: "I Was Temporarily Insane"

Ummmmmmmmmm, okay.

Wonder how the director feels about that rant?

[Bruinsfan]

"I Was Temporarily Insane"

I get the impression he's half right.

[ketchuplover]

I totally missed any homosexual undertones.  Then again I miss a lot of stuff.

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Ordered this from amazon on bluray, it should arrive today. 

 

Plan to watch it over the weekend.

[MrsRafaelBarba]

This is one of most bleak and depressing films I have seen. Ever!

All three leads were excellent.

Took me a while, to realize Dave's wife was played by Sienna Miller.

She really has revived her film career, with this and American Sniper.

Foxcatcher is going to stay with me for a while, before I shake it off.

[JBC344]

Funny you mention Sienna. While watching the movie I was saying wow, that actress looks a lot like Sienna Miller, never actually thinking she was Sienna.  It wasn't until the end credits and her name came up, pleasant surprise.  I always thought she was a little underrated after I saw her play Edie Sedgwick in "Factory Girl".

Edited March 8, 2015 by JBC344

[cpcathy]

Saw this last night. With all the talk about Steve Carrell's performance and the Oscar noms for him and for Mark Ruffalo, I thought Channing Tatum really deserved something too. I thought he did most of the heavy lifting.

[Bruinsfan]

I wonder if he may have been overlooked because he had to completely dampen down his natural charm to play Mark Schultz.

[cpcathy]

I mean, he walked different, he held his jaw differently, it was a real transformation, I think. I had to convince my husband months ago that Channing Tatum is not some lunk head, that it takes intelligence to play someone who doesn't come off as smart. I could tell from Magic Mike that he's no dummy.

[ketchuplover]

Anthony Michael Hall is in this ???????? >plucks out eyes and switches their places<  If this doesn't work I'm going to reverse my brane.  

[cpcathy]

Yeah, I noticed him right away. I kept thinking "Neo maxie zoon dweebie."
 

[MrsRafaelBarba]

I wonder if he may have been overlooked because he had to completely dampen down his natural charm to play Mark Schultz.

I wonder if he may have been overlooked because he had to completely dampen down his natural charm to play Mark Schultz.

On the special features of the bluray...

Miller said he approached Channing about this film back when his star was on the rise.

He turned it down, not being comfortable with the subject matter and how bleak the story is.

A few years passed, he matured and Miller pitched it a second time.

He immediately signed on.

Edited March 10, 2015 by MrsRafaelBarba

[Chas411]

Just caught this today..

Amazing performances by the three main leads. Channing especially is fantastic and I dont think he even got the same level of praise he other two received.

The film lost me though and had I not known the ending already I probably would have switched off as it seemed so long and depressing.

Question though, were Mark and Dave still close by the time he died? Mark seems like such a loose cannon and I didn't get the impression he had a good relationship with Dave's wife..

[GreekGeek]

I caught this on Netflix today. It was fascinating in a way, especially Carrell's John DuPont. I like the idea of him as Michael Scott without humor--a man who fancies himself a brilliant leader and motivator while being completely oblivious to how he really comes across. I did not recognize Vanessa Redgrave and wish there could have been more of her. 

 

The end was one of those "could we just keep going a little longer please?" After all the buildup about the 1988 Seoul Olympics, we never were told how Mark fared. I had to Google it. Hmmm...John DuPont took two Olympic gold medal athletes, killed one, and coached the other to...sixth place. What a great mentor!

[cpcathy]

And he wanted to be called "Golden Eagle!"
 

[beetnemesis]

I watched this movie with my friends in theater and i think it's a good movie for those who like these kind of slow paced films. It wasn't really my thing.