TCM: The Greatest Movie Channel

[ratgirlagogo]

1 hour ago, Charlie Baker said:

Plus a sampling of her "exotic" period.

Yes! I'm loving these Friday nights.  I'm recording Scarlet River and The Barbarian because I've never seen them.  In between at 1 AM is Thirteen Women which I believe we've talked about here before?  Lurid, casually racist, and as the TCM site points out "preposterous" - and fascinating for the casting generally, especially of Peg Entwistle who is best known for having thrown herself off the Hollywood Sign shortly after this film (her only movie credit) came out and flopped. 

ETA: for an actress who was so notably and blessedly low on personal drama, it's interesting (or something like interesting) that Myrna Loy has a couple of these true-crime footnotes to her films - besides Peg Entwistle there's even more famously John Dillinger who ended up getting caught and shot by the FBI when he couldn't resist (understandably) stopping into a theater to watch Manhattan Melodrama with Myrna and Clark Gable.

Edited December 10, 2016 by ratgirlagogo

[LilWharveyGal]

2 hours ago, ratgirlagogo said:

In between at 1 AM is Thirteen Women which I believe we've talked about here before?  Lurid, casually racist, and as the TCM site points out "preposterous" - and fascinating for the casting generally, especially of Peg Entwistle who is best known for having thrown herself off the Hollywood Sign shortly after this film (her only movie credit) came out and flopped. 

I'm totally intrigued.  My DVR is set.

Thank you all for the heads up about Love Me Tonight.  I was able to turn it on just in time to catch Valentine's fabulous black ballgown.

Edited December 10, 2016 by LilWharveyGal

[voiceover]

@Rinaldo, thanks for your Five!

It’s not that this one stumped me; it’s just that all my true faves are post-1950.  Because I…

*dons kevlar vest, boots, mask, gloves*

…prefer a musical with an actual PLOT.  Excepting the Judy Garlands listed here, most of the pre-50s stuff had memorable songs, dazzling choreo, a great kiss or two (SEE: Alice Faye & Tyrone Power pucker up in Alexander’s Ragtime Band)…and not much to hold my interest, story-wise.

5.  Cabin in the Sky (1943): A fable well-sung.

4.  Easter Parade (1948): I agree with the critic who wrote that Judy was the only partner Fred had who you actually watched more than him.  And I love the moment when she shrieks: “You’re nothing but a pair of dancing shoes!…[as she shuts her eyes tight] What color are my eyes??” — and then he swoops in as only Astaire could swoop, kisses her, and murmurs to her shocked (& wide-eyed) expression: “Brown.”

3.  The Harvey Girls (1946) I thought John Hodiak was Garland’s sexiest co-star.  

2.  Wizard of Oz (1939): A special, if forced, attachment.  Grow up in Kansas, and you’re kind of stuck with this as your cultural signifier.  Even half a world away, when I stepped off the plane to start my Peace Corps assignment, my colleagues chorused: “You’re not in Kansas anymore!”  (Ugh.  Every. TIME!)  Also: when people hear you’re from Kansas City, they usually ask if everything’s up-to-date there.  But that’s a story for the post-1950 Five.

1.  The Mikado (1939): An early foray into 3-color Technicolor for Universal, and not as stage-y as you’d think.  Great voices.  And I dearly love this operetta, however it’s done, which is why you’ll find my post-1980 Five features the Mike Leigh “Making of…” film.

[Bastet]

8 hours ago, Charlie Baker said:

and the aforementioned, totally wonderful Love Me Tonight in prime time tonight.

I don't even need all the fingers on my second hand to count the number of movie musicals I love (I like musicals on stage just fine, but only a few screen versions make the cut), but Love Me Tonight is on that short list.  And not just because of my beloved Myrna Loy - although I do wish her lost musical number could be dug up, and make the film even better.

[prican58]

Watching Viva Las Vegas. So entertaining.

[ratgirlagogo]

2 hours ago, prican58 said:

Watching Viva Las Vegas. So entertaining.

One of my favorite post-1950 musicals.  Elvis paired with a suitable leading lady for once - Ann-Margaret was kind of a female Elvis herself.   A pity they couldn't have worked more together.

Edited December 10, 2016 by ratgirlagogo

[SPLAIN]

Three great movies in a row tonight! Although I have them on DVD, I still can't tear away from watching classic movies on TCM.

King Kong, Clash of the Titans, and One Million Years B.C.

[Crisopera]

voiceover - I rather enjoy that Mikado, but they cut my aria!  (I've played Katisha several times, and it's my favorite part.)

[Rinaldo]

@Crisopera, I hear you, and I know the aria. But those cuts in Katisha's music are one of the reasons why I use this movie to show my History of Musicals class, on the first day of the semester, an example of "operetta Act I finale form." Because it takes only 10 minutes of class time, not 15, and every little bit helps.

[bluepiano]

23 hours ago, ratgirlagogo said:

One of my favorite post-1950 musicals.  Elvis paired with a suitable leading lady for once - Ann-Margaret was kind of a female Elvis herself.   A pity they couldn't have worked more together.

Yeah, she was definitely the only one of his female leads who was truly a "co-star." She never really had any other parts like this, where she could showcase all her talents. I don't think Hollywood knew what to do with her, and after Viva Las Vegas she pretty much played conventional sexy "bad girl" roles, or was eye candy in throw-away movies like Murderer's Row with Dean Martin or CC and Company with Joe Namath (!)

Elvis and AM were briefly an off screen "item" too. A few years ago I heard one of Elvis' pals say that if he'd married Ann-Margaret he'd still be alive. Because she was tough enough to make him toe the line, and it would've been a relationship of equals. Instead, he kept himself surrounded with sycophants and leeches who enabled his self-destructive tendencies, as long as he kept working and making money.

Edited December 11, 2016 by bluepiano

[Sharpie66]

A day early, but an early start is rare from me, so enjoy it! 

(Note: 1975 is the cut-off so I can concentrate on pre-Star Wars villainy.)

Sharpie66's Top Five Villains, 1975 and Earlier (with a bonus Best Antagonist at the end):

1. Norman Bates: Psycho. My favorite serial killer character in all of cinema, even better than Hannibal Lecter in his seeming mundanity and his love for his mother. Anthony Perkins and Hitchcock created a truly iconic character who is one of the most influential villains in movie history. That final look of his at the camera with the little smile chills me to this day.

2. The Wicked Witch of the West: The Wizard of Oz. Margaret Hamilton is just brilliant as the subject of million of children's nightmares. She might have chewed the scenery down to the base boards, but her sheer delight in her evilness is an utter delight to watch. It is hard to know if the film would have been nearly as good if they had stuck with Gale Sondergaard dressed very like the Evil Queen from Snow White, but I don't think it would have been as memorable.

3. Mrs. Iselin: Manchurian Candidate. Angela Lansbury is cold, manipulative, and sooooo creepy as Laurence Harvey's handler. I saw this after I knew her as the cuddly crimebuster on Murder She Wrote, so this performance was a revelation to me. 

4. HAL 9000: 2001: A Space Odyssey. Nine words: "I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that." One song: "Daisy, Daisy, give me your answer do..." 

5. Nurse Ratched: One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. The institutional tyrant personified. Louise Fletcher is incredible in this, first in her complete control over the entire ward, and then in how she conveys her utter loss of power at the end with just her tone of voice.

Honorable Mention--Best Film Antagonist (but not a villain): Capt. Louis Renault, Casablanca. I didn't see this film until my mid-40s, just a few years ago, and Renault quickly became one of my favorite characters ever. He is so cynical, so shiftable, and his change in loyalties is not that much of a surprise at the end. Claude Rains had a really rich career, but he was never better than here.

So round up the usual suspects and let me know who you think should be on this list!!

Edited December 12, 2016 by Sharpie66

[Rinaldo]

My choices reflect my feeling about villains — I’m not really scared by most plot antagonists or characters who simply behave badly. To really get to me, a character’s evil needs to be almost mythic, which accounts for the preponderance of legendary, historical, and fairy-tale material in my chosen titles (indeed, as I explain below, I started out with even more fairy tales). Despite all that, we start out with a character from a modern-era setting, and it’s one that I share with @Sharpie66. But I promise that she’s the very first name I thought of when this topic was proposed, because she’s just that wonderful/dreadful:

1. Eleanor Iselin: The Manchurian Candidate (1962). Angela Lansbury is just beyond-beyond in this role, fascinating and horrifying and memorable in every way.

2. Frank: Once Upon a Time in the West (1968). I suppose this has a little of the Lansbury effect; how often did we see Henry Fonda playing such an unrepentantly nasty evil character? And man, does he sell it.

3. Maleficent: Sleeping Beauty (1959). As I said, fairy tale villains tend to be the most effective for me. A good Disney alternative to Maleficent would have been the really loathsome Lady Tremaine in Cinderella. And I strongly considered using Cinderella’s stepmother (Margaret Lockwood, The Slipper and the Rose) and Mother Gothel (voice of Donna Murphy, Tangled) for my last two places, until I remembered that they postdate the cutoff date. But in any case Maleficent, so sneeringly voiced by Eleanor Audley and so angularly animated, is the champion. She scared the bejabbers out of me (and many others my age, I’m sure) when I was a kid.

4. The Sheriff of Nottingham: The Story of Robin Hood (1952). This sheriff is always a great villain, in any rendition of the story, and he’s been played by some terrific actors. But this film (one in the series of live-action adventure flicks produced by Disney in the 1950s) is my favorite version, and I’m happy to salute Peter Finch for his zesty villainy in it.

5. Richard III: Richard III (1955). I admit this is a little different from the others. Shakespeare’s Richard, especially as embodied by Laurence Olivier in the film he directed, is so gleeful in his evil, so delighted with himself, so eager to share his pleasure with us in his soliloquies, that he falls into the “love to hate” category. But he’s definitely a favorite, and I happily recommend him to everyone’s attention (especially as this film seems inexplicably forgotten compared to the Olivier Henry V and Hamlet).

Edited December 12, 2016 by Rinaldo

[Padma]

I avoid very creepy films as a rule (for example, have never seen "Psycho", and worse). Richard III is a great choice--a fantastic character who is not only evil but so very, very clever.  There are so many excellent villains in the pre-1975 period that I decided to limit my 5 choices to women only.  (Never saw "Cuckoos Nest" completely, but enough to know that Louise Fletcher brought pieces of that great characterization to my favorite Star Trek villain, Kai Winn.)

Anyway, my five favorite female villains: (ITA that Angela Lansbury also should make this list):

Barbara Stanwyck, 1944, Phyllis Dietrickson,  "Double Indemnity" (co-written with Wilder & Raymond Chandler). We've mentioned this before. Great performance in one of my top 20 films.

Marlene Dietrich, 1957, Christine, "Witness for the Prosecution" -- Icy, poised and beautiful, Marlene keeps you guessing here, as she did in another mystery, "Stage Fright".

Bette Davis,  Mildred, 1934, "Of Human Bondage"-- One of the early Davis roles showing she knew how to portray a real bitch.

Margaret Hamilton, 1939, The Wicked Witch of the West, 'The Wizard of Oz'.  Ranked #4 on AFI's list of villains she was the highest ranked woman. A former schoolteacher and apparently very sweet woman, her voice and looks (and treatment of Toto) scared generations.

A tie for 3 animated Disney baddies: Cruella de Vil, 1961 voiced by Betty Lou Gerson in "101 Dalmatians"), Maleficent, 1959,  voiced by Eleanor Audley, in "Sleeping Beauty"); and the Evil Queen, 1937 voiced by Lucille La Verne in"Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs"

[Rinaldo]

Another in the "classic that everyone talks about, that Rinaldo has somehow never seen" category, that finally came around in the TCM rotation yesterday: A Letter to Three Wives. Of course it gave Ben M. a chance to talk about great-uncle Joe's contribution to it, and recognition for it, and indeed it's all very slick and (in glossy-entertainment terms) satisfying in its depiction of three suburban women who get a letter from the town seductress saying she's run off with one of their husbands. But which? Cue flashbacks....

Many witty lines (Kirk Douglas gets a couple of gems), and good performances. Jeanne Crain has an unconvincing "collapse in tears" moment but is otherwise fine, and Linda Darnell is something of a revelation for me -- I'd enjoyed her as an inscrutable immobile beauty before, but here she's lively and utterly convincing as an unabashed calculating social climber. Both (unrelated) Douglas men, Kirk and Paul, are excellent, and Ann Sothern is first-rate, conveying a bit more complexity than she was usually asked for. Plus two fine uncredited actresses: the voice of Celeste Holm as the knowing schemer who narrates it all, and wonderful Thelma Ritter as the hard-worked domestic help. (I know that credits were not as voluminously complete back then, and it was only her second movie, but surely even at the time it seemed strange, and wrong, that so substantial and pivotal a part went uncredited.)

[Crisopera]

I love A Letter to Three Wives, and Linda Darnell is indeed a revelation.  She was so incredibly beautiful (she played the Virgin Mary in Song of Bernadette, after all) that she was seldom asked to be anything more.  But given a chance, she definitely had talent - not only in this but in My Darling Clementine and as the similarly tough floozie in Fallen Angel.  (However, she's terrible in Forever Amber.)  She has great chemistry with Paul Douglas (love him!).  And her scenes in her next-to-the-railroad-tracks shanty are so, so good - the scenes with Thelma Ritter (indeed wonderful, always) and Connie Gilchrist are great.  I can't believe Ritter was uncredited - she's so vivid and real on screen.  It would be pretty much perfect if it was A Letter to Two Wives  - and they got rid of the whole Jeanne Crain plot.

My favorite pre-1975 villains?

Like everyone else, the genuinely iconic Phyllis Dietrichson of Barbara Stanwyck

The scary Mrs. Danvers of Judith Anders in Rebecca (with a tiny sidelight on the genuinely horrible Mrs. Van Hopper of Florence Bates in the same movie).

Again, like everyone else, the chilling Mrs. Iselin of Angela Lansbury.

Fred MacMurray as the killingly awful Mr. Sheldrake in The Apartment (not a physical killer, but an emotional one).

And finally, the funniest villain ever, Jean Hagen as Lina Lamont in Singin' in the Rain ("I make more money than Calvin Coolidge...put togither!")

I could have filled this with only Hitchcock villains (James Mason, Raymond Burr, Godfrey Tearle, Peter Lorre, etc.).

Edited December 12, 2016 by Crisopera

[Rinaldo]

16 minutes ago, Crisopera said:

It would be pretty much perfect if it was A Letter to Two Wives  - and they got rid of the whole Jeanne Crain plot.

Isn't that the truth. What's one further downsizing, after so many? The original novelette (first printed in Cosmopolitan, which seems somehow perfect) was A Letter to Five Wives. The movie was planned and scripted as Four Wives (Anne Baxter to play the fourth), but directed and producer agreed that it seemed unwieldy and there was "one wife too many," so Three Wives it became. And yes, the Jeanne Crain plot doesn't have the weight of the others -- its main value is as a red herring in the moments of uncertainty which husband took off. You'll notice that I didn't mention the actor playing her husband; it's not that he was bad, I just don't remember him.

One other thing I meant to mention before: I was a bit puzzled that critiques written nearer the time of its release (like Kael's capsule) refer to it primarily as a hilarious satirical comedy. Certainly there are funny moments and bits, and I suppose its overall format would be "comedic" for lack of a better, if our only other options are "tragic" or "dramatic" (nobody dies, in the end nobody even suffers all that much), but that doesn't describe the impression it made on me. Rather than try for "dramedy" or some such awkward locution, I guess I would leave it without any genre description at all.

[SeanC]

Darnell's whole plot in that movie gains a bit of a meta layer once you know that at the time she was in a relationship with the director, who ultimately declined to leave his wife for her, leading to her going back to her husband after initially filing for divorce.

I liked the movie overall, though of the two movies that won Mankiewicz back-to-back Director/Writer Oscars, it's clearly the inferior.  I was most interested in the middle segment, which has to be one of the earlier movies to touch on the idea of a wife as the primary income-earner and how that might affect a marriage.  Douglas' character comes across like a bit of a pompous ass at times, though, so at certain points I thought she might be better off if he ran off with another woman.

I also watched Christmas in Connecticut last night, the second Barbara Stanwyck movie I've seen where the plot is driven by her lying her ass off to write a column.

[Rinaldo]

4 hours ago, SeanC said:

[Kirk] Douglas' character comes across like a bit of a pompous ass at times...

He does indeed, but we get to see that all the characters have their faults, as all the marriages have their imperfections. And at other times, he's rather sympathetic while she's kind of hard to take. So it all seems to be part of the "nobody's perfect, don't throw out a good thing too hastily" undercurrent.

On further reflection the "Jeanne Crain and whatsisname" plot suffers by comparison with the other two because it's so ill-defined. He leaves the movie early, while she at first seems crippled by her lack of self-confidence (which isn't ever convincingly linked up to her wartime experience) which is driving her toward alcoholism... but then in the final sequence when she thinks it's all over, she's suddenly calm and content and off the booze, so what are we supposed to imagine is the story there? Rather too much of that one is "offstage" to mean much to us, compared to the other plots.

Edited December 12, 2016 by Rinaldo

[prican58]

Can I list all the things I love about Meet Me in St.Louis? 

• Judy Garland (naturally)
• Leon Ames (such a crush I have)
• The title song. (I always sing along)
• Harry Davenport ( never has a grandpa been so adorable, especially when he's dancing)
• Chill Wills ( just because he's Chill Wills)
• Mary Astor (see above for Chill)
• Have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas (my fave Christmas song and version.

Edited December 13, 2016 by prican58

[Padma]

I always enjoy the clip they play on TCM of Margaret O'Brien talking about working with Judy on "Meet Me In St. Louis".  Not sure when it was filmed but O'Brien must have at least been 70-something (she's 79 now) and looked wonderful.  I loved it that she remembered Judy as treating her like a -real- big sister off camera, too, and how much fun she was to work with.

Also that for "Have Yourself..." Judy insisted that Hugh Martin's depressing lyric be changed because "I can't imagine singing something depressing like this to my little sister."

Original lyric:  "Have yourself a merry little Christmas, it may be your last,
Next year we may all be living in the past
Have yourself a merry little Christmas, pop that champagne cork,
Next year we will all be living in New York."

Revised as:  "Have yourself a merry little Christmas
Let your heart be light
Next year all our troubles will be
out of sight."

And the Original Lyric: "No good times like the olden days, happy golden days of yore,
Faithful friends who were dear to us, will be near to us no more.

Revised as:  "Once again as in olden days
Happy golden days of yore
Faithful friends who are dear to us
Will be near to us once more."

A definite improvement!

Edited December 13, 2016 by Padma

[bluepiano]

On ‎12‎/‎9‎/‎2016 at 0:10 PM, Padma said:

Just clips, here and there. I have read several places where Astaire really admired Powell and loved working with her ("She 'put 'em down like a man', no ricky-ticky-sissy stuff with Ellie. She really knocked out a tap dance in a class by herself.", per his autobiography) :) ) Fun to watch them together and what a great tap dance "Begin the Beguine" is.  I'm not sure Powell is as well remembered now as a great tap dancer as she deserves to be.

Just watched Honolulu, which I'd DVRed when TCM showed it a few days ago. Good silly fun, with Robert Young playing a dual role, which of course means lots of mix-ups and "who's who" confusion. But man, Eleanor Powell does a number mixing tap with supposedly traditional Hawaiian dancing, and it's a knock out. So athletic and at the same time so graceful and fluid. In her hula skirt you can see how muscular her upper thighs were. I guess that's what you need to dance with that kind of power and stamina. (It often seems to me that he dance numbers are done in one shot, with no editing).

A cute thing about the movie is that Burns and Allen are in it, but they don't play a couple. In fact it's only at the very end of the movie that they have a scene together, and then launch into a typical kind of Burns and Allen routine. It was like they were playing around with audience expectations.

Edited December 13, 2016 by bluepiano

[Rinaldo]

Sorry to have missed Honolulu. There are a number of movies out there where Eleanor Powell's big number is the main reason to check it out. One that that just makes my eyes pop every time I see it is from I Dood It. The tapping is great, though nothing we haven't seen from her before. But watch her lasso a hitching post half a dozen times perfectly, in one continuous shot, then skip through the ropes. Her physical control and coordination must have been pretty near perfect, in a way denied us lesser mortals.

[Bastet]

Quote

Top Five Villains, 1975 and Earlier

With that cut-off, I have to eliminate the titular Carrie and Mrs. Voorhees from Friday the 13th.   In no particular order (and assuming we're doing most interesting, encompassing both those we love to hate and those we enjoy because we feel sorry for them despite their actions):

- Baby Jane Hudson, Whatever Happened to Baby Jane?

- Norma Desmond, Sunset Blvd.

- Norman Bates, Psycho

- Phyllis Dietrichson, Double Indemnity

- Eve Harrington, All About Eve

[ratgirlagogo]

Best villains, pre-1975, no particular order.

1)  Peter Lorre as Hans Beckert in M (1931).  A great performance.  He really makes your skin crawl.

2) Vincent Price as Mathew Hopkins in The Conqueror Worm (1968).  Maybe the only one of his horror performances that wasn't done slightly tongue in cheek.  His character is a monster and that's how he plays it, for once.

3) Robert Mitchum as Max Cady in Cape Fear (1962).  Could also have gone with his performance as Harry Powell in Night of the Hunter but I think the level of ominous menace in Cape Fear is even stronger - the tension of waiting for Cady to do something terrible is physically painful to sit through.

4) Tatsuya Nakadai as Ryunosuke Tsukue in Sword of Doom (1966).  A terrifying movie about a psychopath who believes himself to be a man of honor who simply can't find a cause worth fighting for.  He has convinced himself that  his samurai code somehow provides an ethical reason to slaughter most of the people he meets, who fail to meet his standards.  One of the most disturbing films I've ever seen and the lead's performance is unforgettably chilling.

5)  Ann Savage as Vera in Detour (1945).  Although it also seems as though Tom Neal might actually be a very bad guy and an extremely unreliable narrator - Vera is the most jawdroppingly hardboiled,  ballbusting relentless bitchy shrew  in the history of the movies.  When I first saw this at the Thalia in the 80's the whole audience was gasping.

Could have chosen some that others have chosen - Mrs. Iselin, HAL, Frank in OUATITW, etc. etc. etc. - but I've decided if we only get five I'm going to do five different ones.   That's not cheating right?

Edited December 13, 2016 by ratgirlagogo

[Sharpie66]

Oh, yeah, Peter Lorre in M! "Ich muss, ICH MUSS!!"

I don't even speak German, but I always have to quote his big speech in the original whenever I talk about this film. He is so good in it. 

[Crisopera]

Boy, that hula-tap number in Honolulu is something else, isn't it?  I love watching Eleanor Powell dance.  However, there is a completely cringeworthy number in Lady Be Good (where she plays an oddly extraneous supporting part) in which she pays tribute to Bill "Bojangles" Robinson - in blackface.  And not Astaire "Bojangles of Harlem" light beige.  Full-on minstrel show (except no white lips).  It's really too bad, because the number is exceptionally good, but it's not going to be excerpted these days.  (She also does an enchanting number with a dog.)

[Rinaldo]

I saw Lady, Be Good! for the first time not that long ago, and I remembered Powell (in, yes, an extraneous role despite being top-billed) in that delightful dance with the dog (trained by her, we're told) and in "Fascinating Rhythm." But not in a blackface number, and I'm pretty sure I would have remembered that, and that TCM doesn't make that sort of excision. Turns out that the Bojangles number is also from Honolulu, which I have yet to see. No criticism intended! -- when songs are as shoehorned-in as hers tend to be, it's genuinely hard to recall which one is in which movie.

To make up for that correction, here's another amazing Eleanor Powell routine, in which she swaps drumsticks with Buddy Rich (here playing in the Tommy Dorsey band). Also present are Red Skelton and Bert Lahr. (I was amused to see that Wikipedia reports that this, Ship Ahoy, is considered the lesser of her two pairings with Skelton; boy, when you're ranked below I Dood It, that's low.)

Edited December 13, 2016 by Rinaldo

[Crisopera]

Oops!

Thanks for the clip - I know I've seen Ship Ahoy, but it's been many years, and I didn't remember that number.  Wow!

Edited December 13, 2016 by Crisopera

[bluepiano]

A day devoted to the underrated (IMO) actor Van Heflin, beginning with the wonderful original 3:10 to Yuma. But the highlight of the day for me is Act of Violence, which also features another intense actor, Robert Ryan. And a great supporting performance from Mary Astor, unlike anything else she's ever done. (I'm a big Mary Astor fan, and the first time I saw this movie I didn't even recognize her.) It's a movie with a truly original plot, and combines elements of film noir with an intelligent examination of some complex moral issues. Highly recommended.

As for villains, like Ratgirlagogo I was also thinking of Mitchum's Max Cady in Cape Fear (truly terrifying) and Ann Savage's Vera in Detour. (though I confess to having a soft spot in my heart for her.)

What about a couple of classic Capra villains, Edward Arnold's D.B. Norton in Meet John Doe, a fascist plutocrat with his own private SS troupe, and Lionel Barrymore's evil skinflint Mr. Potter in It's a Wonderful Life. Who besides having a financial stranglehold on the town, rails against the "garlic eaters" (ie: immigrants) that Jimmy Stewart helps through the Building and Loan.

And though he might not meet everyone's definition of a villain, Peter Sellers' fiendishly clever Claire Quilty in Lolita sure makes life difficult for James Mason.

Edited December 13, 2016 by bluepiano

[Rinaldo]

I've never seen Detour, or to my knowledge anything of Ann Savage at all. Clearly I must remedy that. But for those who already know her work, may I commend this piece on her career, and in particular her performance in Detour.

Sheila O'Malley's blog covers a lot of things, not all of which are likely to interest any one reader. But one thing she writes about especially well is acting in the movies, and she likes to devote deep attention to the work of stars often not taken seriously (by some) as "actors" (John Wayne, particularly Elvis Presley). And the occasional entry like this, that makes me aware that I've missed some entire careers. (There are additional links in the comments, too.)

[Milburn Stone]

DirecTV doesn't have TCM "On Demand," but Apple TV offers Filmstruck (the joint venture of TCM and Criterion) as one of its portals, so I just subscribed. I'm hopeful that some of the films I miss on TCM (because of failure to remember to DVR, or not knowing they were on until too late) will show up in the Filmstruck library for streaming on Apple TV, a library which (Filmstruck promises) will be refreshed weekly. Does anyone else have Filmstruck  and if so what has been your impression of it?

[ulkis]

I do wish they'd air some different silent films. The Passion of Joan of Arc is a great film, but they show it quite often.

[bluepiano]

On ‎12‎/‎13‎/‎2016 at 9:28 AM, Rinaldo said:

I've never seen Detour, or to my knowledge anything of Ann Savage at all. Clearly I must remedy that. But for those who already know her work, may I commend this piece on her career, and in particular her performance in Detour.

Ann Savage as Vera is one of those performances you can never get out of your head in connection to the actress. I've seen her in a couple of lightweight minor comedies in which she plays a typical plucky nice girl heroine. There's nothing to fault in her acting, but it's still hard not to think of her as Vera. You keep expecting her to turn...well....savage.

There was a remake of Detour in 1992 that starred Tom Neal Jr. in the lead role of Al that was played by his father in the original. (I bought a VHS copy at a garage sale for 50 cents). Tom Neal Jr. looked uncannily like Neal Sr. (who was a real life hard luck tough guy who served 6 years in prison for manslaughter). But though it's a line-for-line and almost shot-for-shot remake of the original (other than being in color) it doesn't have anywhere near the impact, largely because the woman playing Vera is a pale imitation of Ann Savage.

Can anyone think of another movie remake in which the son (or daughter) played the same role that was originated by their parent? (Maybe something with Fairbanks Sr. and Jr.?)

Edited December 14, 2016 by bluepiano

[Crisopera]

The only thing that springs to mind is Liza Minnelli providing the voice for Dorothy in the animated Journey Back to Oz (1972).  It almost works to bring up Sean Flynn in The Son of Captain Blood (1962) but not really...  I'll have to cogitate further.

[Sharpie66]

19 hours ago, ulkis said:

I do wish they'd air some different silent films. The Passion of Joan of Arc is a great film, but they show it quite often.

That is the only silent film I have on DVD. Such a great movie, but they should show others, too.

[ratgirlagogo]

1 hour ago, Sharpie66 said:

21 hours ago, ulkis said:

I do wish they'd air some different silent films. The Passion of Joan of Arc is a great film, but they show it quite often.

That is the only silent film I have on DVD. Such a great movie, but they should show others, too.

Yes, this is a huge frustration I have with TCM.  There is at best a  small group of American silent films from which to choose since nobody bothered to save most of them - and yet if you were to open up the Silent Sunday NIghts to the Whole World - well then there are an awful lot more, and a lot are films that very few people in the USA would have seen.  Once in a while they do this  - the Indian film A Roll of Dice, the two Chinese films Wild Rose   and The Goddess.   All three were complete revelations to me and I wish they'd devote more time to this than they do to repeating the same old warhorses over and over and over (not just silent warhorses either).  They have the rights to the biggest film library in the world at this point.  Christ how I wish they'd push to get an additional channel.  Maybe they're testing the waters toward making it available as a streaming service.  Don't care, just want to see all that stuff.

Edited December 15, 2016 by ratgirlagogo

[voiceover]

@Sharpie66! great Five!!

I’m grooving over everyone’s choices…and editing mine accordingly, to spread the love (Judith Anderson is a definite villain for the ages).  I noticed that I couldn’t include any of my beloved silents in my Five.  Possibly because the best villains have the best speeches?  And I always waffle about a character like Nosferatu — villain or monster, and is there a difference?

5. Adolphe Menjou in Stage Door (1937): Villain as slimy lecherous assjack.  Pretty sure that Menjou had his pick among Hollywood execs as inspiration for the producer who works his way through the boarding house.

4. George Saunders in All About Eve (1950): Villain as catty bitch of a critic.  They still exist in theatre & film — only none so elegant as Addison! (see: Perez Hilton)

3. Basil Rathbone in Captain Blood (1935): Villain as Pirate.  That swordplay on the beach, where he grinned while fighting to the death, is probably my favorite swashbuckling moment of them all.  Long before Alan Rickman made British guys synonymous with international villains (Die Hard), there was Rathbone as a Frenchman!

2. Douglas Fairbanks Jr in The Prisoner of Zenda (1937): Villain as the Scene-stealer.  It’s hard for me to look at anyone else while Ronald Colman is onscreen.  Until Rupert of Hentzau enters, grinning.  (“Ronnie…who?”)

1. John Gilbert in Downstairs (1932): Villain as manipulative evil seducer & all-around nastypieceofwork.  He blackmails EVERYBODY in this movie.  And, mostly, gets away with it.  I have mentioned before the jaw-dropping sex moment, when he asks the cook to spank the flour from his trousers.  And she does. (cue Tex Avery wolf reax)

[Milburn Stone]

On 12/13/2016 at 6:48 PM, Milburn Stone said:

Does anyone else have Filmstruck and if so what has been your impression of it?

I'll answer my own question now that I have more experience with it.

I used Filmstruck (the joint streaming venture of TCM and Criterion, available to watch on TV sets via AppleTV) to watch Seconds, the John Frankenheimer horror/sci-fi flick with Rock Hudson, and was grateful for the opportunity. I missed it when it was on TCM and don't know when else I would have had the opportunity to see it, which I've always wanted to. Harrowing. And (as has been noted here, I think) Hudson is great in it. (And Will Geer would be an excellent nominee for the Best Villains thread.)

Also have watched (for the first time since seeing it in the movies in '73) the first half of Altman's The Long Goodbye, up to but not including the scene with Mark Rydell (also a potential Best Villain, albeit in a supporting role) because I couldn't bear to see it before going to bed. Just as fantastic as it was when it came out.

And also the best part of On a Clear Day You Can See Forever--namely, the opening Barbra song "Hurry It's Lovely Up Here," with the time-lapse photography of flowers growing; and the main titles with those fabulous and fascinating colored rectangles within rectangles to Nelson Riddle's orchestration of the title tune.

The service costs $7 a month, or $11 a month/$99 a year to include the Criterion library. I like this Netflix/Hulu-like model, in that once you subscribe, you feel no disincentive to delve into lots of films (as you might if you had to pay for each film individually).

Edited December 15, 2016 by Milburn Stone

[Rinaldo]

Adding to the Villains conversation:

Yes, yes! How could I have overlooked Judith Anderson as Mrs. Danvers when I was casting about for my initial five? Some terrific actresses, like Anna Massey and Diana Rigg, have subsequently played her, but somehow Judith Anderson's imprint remains forever on the role.

And I knew Basil Rathbone would have to join the list at some point. He was so very good at playing those sneering schemers in old-time adventure stories, and even parodying them as in The Court Jester.

[mariah23]

I have FilmStruck free for the rest of the year due to being a beta tester (hopefully they may give me and others a little bit longer because of the site launching later than usual).  One of the movies I watched was In the Realm of the Senses.  OMG, I had to look away half the time!

[Milburn Stone]

2 hours ago, mariah23 said:

I have FilmStruck free for the rest of the year due to being a beta tester (hopefully they may give me and others a little bit longer because of the site launching later than usual).  One of the movies I watched was In the Realm of the Senses.  OMG, I had to look away half the time!

I don't know that one! I'll have to check it out...if I dare.

FilmStruck is a bit odd in one respect, at least via AppleTV. While all other "apps" I've ever had occasion to view on AppleTV have a similar navigation scheme (how it looks to go forward or back through the show or movie, how to access subtitles/captioning, etc., etc.), FilmStruck is different. And I do mean all other. Whether iTunes, Netflix, Hulu, HBO Go, Showtime Anytime, or any of the other portals through which I've accessed content, all share a common user experience when it comes to the viewing of the content. FilmStruck is the outlier, for reasons I can't fathom. (And their system is less user-friendly, not more.) I'd have hoped Apple would impose standards on them to make the experience more intuitive. With all other channels, if you know how one of them works, you know how all of them work. I'm figuring it out, but it's somewhat annoying to have to.

[bluepiano]

13 hours ago, voiceover said:

George Saunders in All About Eve (1950): Villain as catty bitch of a critic.  They still exist in theatre & film — only none so elegant as Addison!

Funny, I don't think of Addison as a villain. He has his own kind of integrity, and he's the only one who sees through Eve from the beginning. And then provides her with her comeuppance. I would probably opt for Eve herself as being the villain in All About Eve.

Programming alert. Today TCM is showing Play Girl, from 1932, with Loretta Young. That's a completely deceptive and inappropriate title for a moving slice-of-life drama about the grief an idealistic young girl experiences from being in love with an irresponsible gambler. Miss Young looks luminously beautiful, and if those big sad eyes don't break your heart....well, they broke mine.

The movie also features the always entertaining Winnie Lightner, a big stage star in the '20s who made only a few movies before marrying director Roy Del Ruth and retiring.

Edited December 15, 2016 by bluepiano

[voiceover]

2 hours ago, bluepiano said:

Funny, I don't think of Addison as a villain. 

Put it down to my bringing personal experience to the table.  I never stayed long enough to be a Margo, but I experienced my share of Addisons, who'd "discover" you breathlessly, kiss up to you socially, then dump you when the Next Big Thing arrived.

Birdie saw through Eve, too.  Who can forget her "...dogs snappin' at her rear end!" chaser?

[bluepiano]

Yup, she sure did. I love Thelma Ritter!!

[psychoticstate]

16 hours ago, voiceover said:

. John Gilbert in Downstairs (1932): Villain as manipulative evil seducer & all-around nastypieceofwork.  He blackmails EVERYBODY in this movie.  And, mostly, gets away with it.  I have mentioned before the jaw-dropping sex moment, when he asks the cook to spank the flour from his trousers.  And she does. (cue Tex Avery wolf reax)

Thank you for mentioning this!   I first saw Downstairs several years ago and was mesmerized, not only by Gilbert but the story in general.  I had not heard much about the film, only that it wasn't very well received back in 1932 and it was one of Gilbert's last films, when he was on his way out.

A terrible shame because Downstairs is a remarkable movie, very much ahead of its time in some ways. Gilbert co-wrote it; and was fantastic in his part.  Too bad that he was stereotyped as a lover of Garbo (onscreen) and wasn't recognized for being a good actor.

My Top 5 Villains (minus the wonderfully chilling Dame Judith Anderson, who has been mentioned multiple times; I'll try to be original) and in no particular order: 

1.  Ann Blyth as Veda Pierce in Mildred Pierce.  Money, money, money makes Veda's world go 'round. Blyth plays this bitchy character to perfection. 

2.  Charles Boyer as Gregory Anton in Gaslight.  Bad enough he married Ingrid Bergman in order to find jewels in her aunt's home (the same aunt he murdered) but he's also trying to make her think she's insane. 

3.  Joseph Cotton as Uncle Charlie in Shadow of a Doubt.  Great film all around, Cotton gives a fantastic performance as a lethal lothario. 

4.  Lionel Barrymore as Mr. Potter in It's a Wonderful Life.  Barrymore was just awesome in everything and Potter is a cheap wealthy man who's out to own every bit of Bedford Falls.

5.  (Tie) Joan Crawford as Crystal Allen in The Women; Jean Harlow as Lil Andrews in Red Headed Woman.  Neither are exactly villains per se but both play women who want to get ahead socially and don't care whose husband they have to sleep with to get there.  And play them perfectly. 

[Rinaldo]

What a great list, @psychoticstate! And almost all from movies I'm familiar with, yet I hadn't thought of them for this. As this plan of weekly 5-lists seems designed in part to lead into fruitful side-discussions, may I venture some further thoughts on one of these:

1 hour ago, psychoticstate said:

3.  Joseph Cotton as Uncle Charlie in Shadow of a Doubt.  Great film all around, Cotton gives a fantastic performance as a lethal lothario. 

No disagreement on the substance of this. I finally saw the film last spring (having heard much praise for it in advance) and enjoyed it a lot. Jo Cotten truly is superb (as is Teresa Wright). It's a different milieu and atmosphere from other Hitchcock movies, which adds to the distinctiveness of the pleasure.

But I find a lot of little problems around the edges. Most accounts of the film acknowledge them, but wave them off saying they "don't matter."  Yet I find that they do matter: not fatally, but enough to bump this title down a few rungs in my Favorite Hitchcock list. I'm talking about issues like the way the investigation of the suspect is handled (letting him walk openly past them in the opening scene even though they're watching for him [yes, they don't know what he looks like, but they should be looking extra hard in that case!]; hanging out near the family home for weeks on end apparently doing nothing to advance their case except proposing marriage), or young Charlie deciding to let her uncle get away with what he's done.

Am I being too fussy? I really did want to love it unreservedly (as I do with, for instance, Strangers on a Train). But such loose ends do add up for me, and nag at me. How do others feel about them (or do you disagree that they're issues at all?)?

[Padma]

I agree that "Shadlow of a Doubt" has its flaws, but I enjoyed seeing a different villain/woman dynamic in the "favorite uncle/beloved brother" creepiness and it taking place in unsophisticated small town America. Plus, Cotten and Wright were both so good.

Yesterday TCM showed "Dial M for Murder" which reminded me how many of those kinds of villains Hitchcock had, in addition to the obviously crazy ones like Perkins and Walker.  I'm sure there are more than five of the suave, likable, good-looking ones, but 5 favorites came immediately to mind (including those who the audience isn't sure of).... Cotton (Shadow of a Doubt); Grant (Suspicion); Milland (Dial "M" for Murder); Rains (Notorious); Mason (North by Northwest).   Quite a lot of top drawer appealing villains from one director.

[Milburn Stone]

Caught up with Letter to Three Wives last night. Watched it via AppleTV/iTunes, impelled by the discussion among @Rinaldo, @Crisopera, and @SeanC. Thank you--I got a lot out of re-reading it this morning.

There was one rather important element that initially confused us, which, since it's the climax of the entire movie, I'll hide:

Spoiler

When Paul Douglas "confesses" to Jeanne Crain that he was the one who took off with Addie Ross (only to return), we just couldn't tell if he was telling the truth. It seemed believable! (As it should; after all, if Paul Douglas can't convince the audience that it's true, he could never convince Jeanne Crain.) The main reason we were inclined to believe him was that if he was lying, he was performing a sadistic, horrible cruelty to Jeanne Crain in the disguise of compassion! Pretty much gas-lighting her! What possible good could it do to lie to her when she is going to discover the truth soon enough anyway? And then, if she was foolish enough to believe his lie, she'd think she was really going crazy! How does that help her? All in the name of supposedly giving her one good night's sleep? Even worse, in retrospect it seemed like he was using Jeanne Crain so that he could play his game with Linda Darnell to find out if she really loved him. And yet, when the tensions dissolve between him and Darnell, we felt great, as we were meant to, and had to admit that we essentially colluded with him in his sadistic lie (cloaked as kindness) to Jeanne Crain. After all, we didn't give a fig about Jeanne Crain, and we cared a lot about Paul Douglas and Linda Darnell. So Mankiewicz essentially makes the audience the accomplice in the cruelty.

Complicated!

[Rinaldo]

@Milburn Stone, where did you get that material you quoted? Not from here, as far as I can tell. I dimly remember reading those sentences in the IMDb forum for the movie, and it was quite thoroughly trounced by reports that this interpretation, which goes back a long way, came as a total surprise to Mankiewicz when he was told about it, as he intended no such complication or ambiguity at all. Paul Douglas was telling the truth, and the surface story is the real one (except to conspiracy theorists on IMDb, who'll believe anything).

So feel free to ignore all that. 

[Milburn Stone]

5 minutes ago, Rinaldo said:

@Milburn Stone, where did you get that material you quoted? Not from here, as far as I can tell. I dimly remember reading those sentences in the IMDb forum for the movie, and it was quite thoroughly trounced by reports that this interpretation, which goes back a long way, came as a total surprise to Mankiewicz when he was told about it, as he intended no such complication or ambiguity at all. Paul Douglas was telling the truth, and the surface story is the real one (except to conspiracy theorists on IMDb, who'll believe anything).

So feel free to ignore all that. 

Hi @Rinaldo. I'm a little confused by your post. I'm not quoting anyone in what I wrote. That's all me--put between spoiler tags, since the originator of the whole TCM topic (way back when) specified that this topic not contain any unhidden spoilers. In my post I referred back to your earlier discussion only to say that I enjoyed it and found it illuminating.

As for Mankiewicz intending no ambiguity, I can only say the he failed! Spoiler tagging again:

Spoiler

After Jeanne Crain runs off, Ann Sothern has almost a throwaway line to Paul Douglas like "how could you tell her a thing like that?," to which he replies to the effect of, "hey, it'll help her at least sleep through the night." Meaning, in the morning, and the morning after that, when Anonymous Actor Husband still doesn't show up, she'll have to face the music, but not tonight. We had to rewind and rewatch to catch this moment, because we just couldn't tell what was real and what was a lie, but that pretty much answered it. 

Is this a major misinterpretation? It doesn't seem to require being a conspiracy theorist to believe. I suppose Paul Douglas could be

Spoiler

lying to Ann Sothern and not lying to Jeanne Crain,

but that to me seems like stretching too far for an interpretation.