TCM: The Greatest Movie Channel

[bmoore4026]

Earlier tonight, they played Cabaret.  Anyone else like Joel Gray's version of the MC rather than the revival's version, what with the suspenders and no shirt and showing off the armpits?

On tonight's TCM Underground, Zardoz was on.  Perfect movie for those who ever wondered what Sean Connery would look like dressed like Vampirella.  Also, I like to think some GOP guy saw this movie, heard "The gun is good.  Penis is evil", and decided what the party's grassroots philosophy would be.

[Rinaldo]

6 hours ago, bmoore4026 said:

Earlier tonight, they played Cabaret.  Anyone else like Joel Gray's version of the MC rather than the revival's version

Only all right-minded people, I should think. The point that the movie understands (and the revival, and its current revival, miss completely) is that dangerous political movements are dangerous precisely because they have an appealing, seductive side that can draw people in (see also "Tomorrow Belongs to Me"). If the sleaze is right on the surface, there goes the ballgame.

[Crisopera]

6 hours ago, Rinaldo said:

that dangerous political movements are dangerous precisely because they have an appealing, seductive side that can draw people in

That's precisely why I preferred Angela Lansbury in Sweeney Todd to Patti Lupone (and I'm a big fan of Lupone's).  Lupone was venal and mean from the start, whereas Lansbury was so funny and charming that it didn't dawn on you until near the end that she was as big a monster as Sweeney.  (I was lucky enough to see both of them on stage - wish I could have seen them both do Mama Rose, instead of just Lupone.)

Edited September 4, 2016 by Crisopera

[Padma]

On ‎9‎/‎3‎/‎2016 at 6:20 AM, Rinaldo said:

I finished The Razor's Edge last night. I remember that Maugham's novel was one of the handful of classics on my parents' bookshelf, and that I found it rather unsatisfying as a reading experience, being an undigested mix of high-society comedy, mystic uplift, and tragedy; I wonder why people keep trying to film it. ...

I haven't seen the Bill Murray version and it sounds a lot more violent and aggressive so I probably never will. I love Maugham's writing and it's kind of sad to think he wrote the first screenplay for the movie and not one word of it was used.  That said, I always have a soft spot for films where people are searching for the meaning of life and find it by rejecting the usual trappings of success--money, fame, social status.

That's what I like best about "The Razor's Edge" anyway, and I agree with you that Power's a good bit of casting. I'm not a big Gene Tierney fan though--she always seems so impassive, cold and emotionless to me, and I wish almost anyone else had played it. Supposedly Maureen O'Hara was originally going to be cast and, while it's a little hard to picture, I think she would have been infinitely better at bringing some emotional depth to a very unsympathetic and shallow woman.  I know Anne Baxter got the Oscar for her part, but for me, Sophie is a bit too melodramatic in both the writing and performance.  But I kind of do like the movie overall, especially because of the idealism and "search for meaning" that you don't get a lot of in movies (then again, I sort of like Eddie Murphy's  "A Thousand Words" for the same reason, and it has a rare 0% on Rotten Tomatoes).

[Rinaldo]

30 minutes ago, Padma said:

II always have a soft spot for films where people are searching for the meaning of life

Fair enough. I myself find such films (or books) a signal to flee at once. (Examples available on request.) So this book and movie are not for me in the first place, and I should leave it at that. 

[3pwood]

Rinaldo, do you feel the same way about Of Human Bondage, either the book or the movie?  I read the book when I was 16 & loved it (took some effort to understand it, but I think I finally did).  I've only seen the Leslie Howard/Bette Davis version of the movie, which I enjoyed but didn't love -- I can't imagine what the other 2 versions must be like (Paul Henreid/Eleanor Parker, Laurence Harvey/Kim Novak) & have no desire to see either of them.  

[Rinaldo]

3pwood, it's been so long since I read Of Human Bondage (it's one of 40 novels we got through in my high-school-senior honors-English class), I don't trust my memory much. Especially as I don't even remember that element (looking for the meaning of life) being part of it! I remember liking it when I read it, but I'm quite certain I missed vast areas of what it was saying. I did see two movie versions around that time -- must have been commercial TV in the mid-60s, unlikely as that seems. My (likewise unreliable) memory is that I liked the one with Kim Novak better than the Bette Davis one. Which seems so improbable to me now, if you want to dismiss all my reactions of that time as ill-informed and immature, I would probably agree with you!

[3pwood]

The meaning of life in Of Human Bondage was symbolized by a woven rug with an incomplete pattern, which Philip ultimately realized showed that there is no meaning.  That was in the novel -- I don't remember the subject being addressed in the movie (at least the Bette Davis version), which primarily dealt with the tragic "love story".

I do like Kim Novak but she seems physically wrong for the role of Mildred, so robust & overtly sexual  --  just right for her character in Picnic, but nothing like poor Mildred.  Bette Davis could look frail, sickly, neurotic -- Mildred was not a goodtime girl full of fun, she was a symbol of unhealthy obsession.  Maybe Novak was a better actress than I realize & pulled it off -- but I'll bet Laurence Harvey was as wooden as ever.

[Rinaldo]

I think Laurence Harvey was a good actor, but he could indeed seem disengaged in some movies. As for Kim Novak, she's one of the enigmas among movie stars, isn't she? Seemingly the epitome of someone elected to stardom because of a look and a quality that the camera caught, but she had some memorable performances in her: Picnic, as you say; and whatever Hitchcock wanted in Vertigo, she did supply. Maybe she had what it took for Mildred too; or maybe I was just unaccustomed, at my young age, to "reading" older movies intelligently, and was only used to contemporary production values.

[prican58]

On 8/30/2016 at 7:54 PM, prican58 said:

 

One of my favorite pairings...Ronald Reagan and Wayne Morris in An Angel From Texas. Maybe it's the boyish charm they both exude. Just fun to watch. And Eddie Albert was just so adorable as a young man. More boyishness to be sure. Morris had been a big WWII aviator hero but couldn't recapture the fairly successful career when he came back but that was a scenario a lot of actors faced. He died young of a heart attack at 45. 

[Padma]

7 hours ago, prican58 said:

One of my favorite pairings...Ronald Reagan and Wayne Morris in An Angel From Texas. Maybe it's the boyish charm they both exude. Just fun to watch. And Eddie Albert was just so adorable as a young man. More boyishness to be sure. Morris had been a big WWII aviator hero but couldn't recapture the fairly successful career when he came back but that was a scenario a lot of actors faced. He died young of a heart attack at 45. 

I'm so sorry I missed this (also won't be on On Demand).

I watched Michael Feinstein intro and close Ocean's 11 last night and, probably people think I'm out of my mind, but he's the host who most reminds me of Robert. He could smile less (like Robert), but I think his speaking style and content are very good and his personality seems pretty mild. Plus, I always like it when he talks about song writers.  Is he continuing on, or was it just for the Summer of Stars? 

[bluepiano]

Feinstein seems a little nervous to me, which you wouldn't expect from an experienced performer, but I guess the TCM gig is unlike anything else he's done. I do generally like him, and think he could grow into the role. And I can kind of see the comparison to Robert Osborne. They both seem very humble about having the opportunity to present all these great movies.

If he doesn't continue on, I hope he comes back from time to time to talk about movie musicals and Hollywood songwriters.

[Milburn Stone]

12 hours ago, bluepiano said:

Feinstein seems a little nervous to me, which you wouldn't expect from an experienced performer, but I guess the TCM gig is unlike anything else he's done. I do generally like him, and think he could grow into the role. And I can kind of see the comparison to Robert Osborne. They both seem very humble about having the opportunity to present all these great movies.

If he doesn't continue on, I hope he comes back from time to time to talk about movie musicals and Hollywood songwriters.

I agree with all parts of the above. His forced, constant smile looked like a rictus of terror to me. But I think he has the knowledge and passion to be a good TCM host, if only he can loosen up. Perhaps a handful of Xanax would do the trick.

[bmoore4026]

Today's daytime line-up is a "Inspirational Teacher" theme, yet we do not have <b>The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie</b> for those of us who want a pallet cleanser.

[voiceover]

Hoping Up the Down Staircase is part of On Demand, as I missed the afternoon screening.  I remember very little of the film from my 1st & only viewing.  

Weirdly, I *do* remember the MAD Magazine , "MAD At the Movies" paperback collection I read as a kid, with their spoof of this titled "In the Out Exit".  

The running joke about Sandy Dennis's character is that she has a nervous twitch.  When a student comes on to her, she exclaims, "Are you trying to kiss me??" and he replies:

"Yeah, but you keep twitching, and I keep missing!"

Wonderful what the brain retains after 40 years.

[Rinaldo]

Oh, I can remember titles and bits of MAD magazine parodies perfectly after all these years -- they made deep impressions. It's also fun to look back and realize that their spoofs were often prepared before or during a movie's release, and sometimes they guessed wrong about which ones were going to be the big hits, and had to run the parody anyway. Like the Lost Horizon musical, with its song "The World's a Parabola without a Hypotenuse."

[Milburn Stone]

3 hours ago, Rinaldo said:

Oh, I can remember titles and bits of MAD magazine parodies perfectly after all these years -- they made deep impressions. It's also fun to look back and realize that their spoofs were often prepared before or during a movie's release, and sometimes they guessed wrong about which ones were going to be the big hits, and had to run the parody anyway. Like the Lost Horizon musical, with its song "The World's a Parabola without a Hypotenuse."

You have just set me on a quest to find the MAD parody of Lost Horizon. "Wrong guess" or not, I can only be grateful that they took on this often ridiculous, but at other times sublime, musical. (From its day of release, people seemed only to want to focus on its ridiculousness. Despite being a solitary voice in the wilderness for the sublime parts, I can't wait to see what MAD did.)

PS: Done. The issue is December 1973. Found and ordered.

Edited September 7, 2016 by Milburn Stone

[Rinaldo]

And even those of us who adored the movie will always remember what they did to/for The Sound of Music.

Fräulein Maria says "You'd better start singing, children! Remember, we're not in this for our health:

DOUGH means cash for all of us.

'RAY!! for musicals like this!

ME, a star so big that by

FAR they really couldn't miss.

SO insipid is the plot...." and on and on. 

[Crisopera]

So, why didn't Lucille Ball become a huge movie star?  I was watching The Big Street, and was extremely impressed.  I've always liked her in movies (much more so than in her TV shows, to be honest).  You'd think she had everything - great beauty, great timing, great dramatic acting.  MGM did try with her, a lot in fact, but it just never took with the public.    Was it something about the sarcastic turn to her comedy?  She was willing to be unsympathetic onscreen (see The Big Street and Dance Girl Dance).  Maybe that was the problem?  And then why did TV work for her?  Was it because she left the sarcasm (and intelligence) behind?  Thoughts?

[Charlie Baker]

More from Mad's parody of Sound of Music:

To the title song: "I'm not singing this...I am pre-recorded..."

And the Streisand parody:

"Bubby Strident in 'On A Clear Day You Can Hear a Funny Girl Singing Hello, Dolly Forever'"

I've read some Ball biographies. And she was effective in a lot of her films, and could play comedy or drama.  But she was also a comic or clown and did not find the signature persona of one in movies, like say, Chaplin or Keaton.  She only found that in television. That's a theory that keeps coming up about her and I tend to believe it.  The TV persona was the full exploration of her talent and appeal.

Up the Down Staircase holds up very well.  Interesting to see great character actors who became better known, like Jean Stapleton, Eileen Heckart, Frances Sternhagen, Florence Stanley. The great Ruth White did not become as recognizable as those ladies, but was absolutely in their league.  And the kids, played by amateurs, I believe, for the most part, are really effective and memorable.  Bel Kaufman, the author of the book which she based on her own experiences, died in 2014 at 103.

ETA: Of course Eileen Heckart did have some significant movie roles before Staircase: Bad Seed, Bus Stop for example.

Edited September 8, 2016 by Charlie Baker
Clarification

[Milburn Stone]

34 minutes ago, Charlie Baker said:

More from Mad's parody of Sound of Music:

To the title song: "I'm not singing this...I am pre-recorded..."

And the Streisand parody:

"Bubby Strident in 'On A Clear Day You Can Hear a Funny Girl Singing Hello, Dolly Forever'"

There clearly needs to be a deluxe hardbound coffee table book containing every MAD movie parody ever. Preferably in time for holiday gift-giving.

[Rinaldo]

Their TV parodies were just as memorable. Two that I find myself recalling:

The Mary Taylor-Made Show: "Hi everybody! This is the one scene I get every week where I show off my legs!"

Swill Street Blues: "Frank, when you stay away from the office so long in the middle of the day, don't you feel confused when you go back?" "No, the great thing about this show is that you can be confused no matter where you are."

[bluepiano]

6 hours ago, Crisopera said:

So, why didn't Lucille Ball become a huge movie star?  I was watching The Big Street, and was extremely impressed.  I've always liked her in movies (much more so than in her TV shows, to be honest).  You'd think she had everything - great beauty, great timing, great dramatic acting.  MGM did try with her, a lot in fact, but it just never took with the public.    Was it something about the sarcastic turn to her comedy?  She was willing to be unsympathetic onscreen (see The Big Street and Dance Girl Dance).  Maybe that was the problem?  And then why did TV work for her?  Was it because she left the sarcasm (and intelligence) behind?  Thoughts?

Interesting theory about the sarcastic edge to her comedy. Dubarry Was a Lady was another comedy in which she was the star but wasn't totally likeable. The young Ginger Rogers started out playing wisecracking, sarcastic roles, but then the movies with Astaire softened her. Katherine Hepburn had an edge to her comedy too, but then usually in the end she melted, like in The Philadelphia Story.

I think that once she made The Long Trailer with Desi there was no turning back. It was a very popular movie, and from then on she was America's adorable kookie read head.

[Rinaldo]

Tonight (Thursday) is another Disney Night on TCM, again hosted by Leonard Maltin. Along with shorts and an episode of the Disneyland series (one that I remember from first showing, as it happens), the main items this time are Treasure Island (their first filmed-in-England adventure film, and one of the best of that series), Davy Crockett and the River Pirates (a sequel, in which we go back to earlier in Davy's life to see him encounter Mike Fink), and Those Calloways (a 1965 family drama with an interesting cast).

[Milburn Stone]

5 hours ago, Rinaldo said:

Tonight (Thursday) is another Disney Night on TCM, again hosted by Leonard Maltin. 

Speaking of Leonard, I discovered a little-known facet of his expertise recently. I became a jazz fan at age 14 (in 1964), and subscribed to down beat for about 3 years (till going off to college). So when I saw the issue of April 12, 1973 for sale recently in a used book store, I bought it. Lo and behold, there's an excellent piece of reporting on the Duke Pearson Big Band and their regular Monday night gig at NY's Half Note club (about 1200 words), written by someone with a thorough understanding of the music and the scene--one Leonard Maltin.

I first became aware of Maltin sometime in the seventies or early eighties because of his terrific book about animation, Of Mice and Magic. But I never knew of his double life as a hipster--one with (judging from the quality of this down beat piece) plenty of cred.

Edited September 8, 2016 by Milburn Stone

[bluepiano]

Just watched Hot Money from 1936, an enjoyable satire on big business and one of the few starring vehicles for Ross Alexander, a talented but now almost completely forgotten actor. You can read about his short, unfortunate life on IMDB.

I'd seen Alexander before in small, supporting roles, but two things struck me watching this movie. One, had things been different, he really could've been a major star. He had a great onscreen personality. And two, how much he looked like the young Jon Stewart.

 

Edited September 8, 2016 by bluepiano

[bmoore4026]

Tonight is another Disney themed night.  TCM does what The Disney Channel no longer does and plays classic Disney movies and cartoons from time to time.  I'm guessing they have an agreement.  Wonder if they'll come to an agreement of Song of the South?

The Disney things on tonight appears to be a nautical themed one, with cartoons involving boats and what not, like one involving Mickey and his friends trying to build a boat and Donald getting the brunt of the abuse.  And then we have showing of Treasure Island (and Robert Newton's iconic portrayal of Long John Silver, forever encapsulating what people think of how pirates talked) and a movie about Davy Crockett and the Pirates, where I'm guessing Mr. Crockett fights pirates.  God, Davy Crockett was huge in my parents day (hell, several members on this site probably have similar feelings), but no one nowadays knows about that show.

Anyway, after that is an episode of Disneyland, and after that is a movie called Those Calloways, which is a Disney produced film but I've never heard of it.  After that is one of those Disney nature documentaries that they'd show on The Wonderful World of Disney.  And after that is a Disney movie called Midnight Madness, which was Michael J. Fox's debut.

So, that's that.

[voiceover]

Davy Crockett was part of "Wonderful World of Disney" reruns by the time I first saw him, and Fess Parker had reached the end of the Daniel Boone run.  But I had the hots for him before I ever knew "hots" was a thing.

I used to confuse him with Gregory Peck in those days, too.  How come *they* never played brothers in a Western??

[ratgirlagogo]

On 9/7/2016 at 11:31 AM, Rinaldo said:

The Sound of Music.

Don't you mean The Sound of Money?

How come I'm alone
and there's so much music?
High up on a hill
with no one in view?
Just how can there be
all this sound and music?
A musical question I pose
to you!

How can I run up this steep mountainside
without ever losing a beat?
You'd think that my lungs would give out up here
over ten thousand feet!

To do all these things with a wide-mouthed grin really
should not amaze---
I've had lots of rest,
'cause they filmed it on five different days!

I'm not singing now, 
I am pre-recorded!
I'm just mouthing words
I have sung before!
And how does it feel
to be singing nothing?
It's an awful bore!

 

Just like Patti Smith always said.  After MAD, drugs were NOTHING.  

[Rinaldo]

On re-viewing, this Treasure Island is still the classic for me, and Robert Newton owns Long Long Silver. (As indeed he did for the rest of his career -- he kept being asked to play the role on TV and in sequels.)

Bobby Driscoll was certainly a Disney Studios favorite, and under long-term contract; he'd appeared in Song of the South and So Dear to My Heart, plus a bit in Melody Time, and would go on to do Peter Pan's voice, but on this viewing, I found myself thinking that he... just wasn't that good an actor. I'm not fussing about the accent, but he had to do a lot of reaction shots to the adult action, and they mostly seemed like stock bug-eyed slack-jawed "give us two seconds of surprise, Bobby."

I have vague memories of seeing some of this Davy Crockett saga on its initial TV showing -- Mike Fink doing his boisterous laughing, mostly. It's easy to see its origin as two hourlong TV segments planned to be edited into one feature for theater release (the river race providing a midway climax, and then there's a new story), but it works out well enough. It did have some of that "special exaggerated goofy acting for little kids" that bugs me in a few of the Disney live-action pictures; the better ones don't condescend like that. It also had one of those stylistic jolts that apparently stick out for me more than some others, where the characters suddenly break into fully accompanied song for a minute as if this were a musical -- it's fine to have an unseen chorus setting the scene periodically, that's framework, but when Mike Fink urges his team on in song with orchestral accompaniment, that breaks the level of reality for me. (Obviously, it's a little late to complain. :) )

Edited September 9, 2016 by Rinaldo

[ratgirlagogo]

10 hours ago, Rinaldo said:

On re-viewing, this Treasure Island is still the classic for me, and Robert Newton owns Long Long Silver. (As indeed he did for the rest of his career -- he kept being asked to play the role on TV and in sequels.)

Seeing the documentary Crumb skewed my ideas about this movie permanently.  I can't even think about it without feeling sad about Charles Crumb.

[voiceover]

I'm tickled that they're screening Young Frankenstein as part of Gene Hackman Month.  He is perfect in this cameo ("You're a mute!...an *incredibly big* mute..." and my favorite: "I was gonna make espresso!") -- genuine, funny, genuinely funny...and nearly unrecognizable.  I've talked with a number of viewers who were stunned to find out that he was in this film; Pauline Kael confessed much the same in her review.

Also, I just love this movie.  Such an affectionate salute to those 30s horror classics.  And so many brilliant comic turns, in addition to Hackman's.    It's a tight race, but Cloris Leachman wins Best Line:

She races to tell the Doctor that his fiancée has telegraphed her imminent arrival, only to find him en flagrante with his assistant.  Her reprimand: "I suggest you put on a tie!!"  I know it's coming, yet I laugh every time.  A lot.

Edited September 10, 2016 by voiceover

[Padma]

Watching "Cabaret" for the first time in many years.  What phenomenal editing! I looked up the editor -- David Bretherton.  Never heard of him, as is true with most editors--often the people whose talent saves/makes the film great. Too bad there's not a "cult of editor" like their is for directors.                          

[Rinaldo]

Also to remembered for Cabaret: cinematographer Geoffrey Unsworth. To the end of his life (unfortunately not all that many years later), Pauline Kael would single him out in reviews of other pictures as "the man who shot Cabaret".

This is actually not my favorite kind of movie musical editing -- the quick-flash cut-cut-cut way of conveying musical numbers that a few years later would become the MTV style. (I admit it: my heart is with the old-school long-shot full-body framing that characterized the Astaire-Rogers movies.) Yet this is what Fosse wanted; he had a vision, and inexperienced as he was (amazing that this is only his second full piece of movie direction), he conveyed it to his collaborators and got it from them, and it's completely cinematic and all fits together. Phenomenal indeed.

This was one of the rare years when it really made sense to give Best Direction and Best Picture to different movies. The Godfather is a great great cinematic achievement (at the point where popular and high art are one), and Coppola deserves all the credit in the world for achieving it. But you look at Cabaret, and it's just smashingly directed, and looks like nothing else ever. That was a great year in movies. (And I think we knew it at the time, too.)

[Padma]

3 hours ago, Rinaldo said:

Also to remembered for Cabaret: cinematographer Geoffrey Unsworth. To the end of his life (unfortunately not all that many years later), Pauline Kael would single him out in reviews of other pictures as "the man who shot Cabaret".

This is actually not my favorite kind of movie musical editing -- the quick-flash cut-cut-cut way of conveying musical numbers that a few years later would become the MTV style. (I admit it: my heart is with the old-school long-shot full-body framing that characterized the Astaire-Rogers movies.) Yet this is what Fosse wanted; he had a vision, and inexperienced as he was (amazing that this is only his second full piece of movie direction), he conveyed it to his collaborators and got it from them, and it's completely cinematic and all fits together. Phenomenal indeed.

This was one of the rare years when it really made sense to give Best Direction and Best Picture to different movies. The Godfather is a great great cinematic achievement (at the point where popular and high art are one), and Coppola deserves all the credit in the world for achieving it. But you look at Cabaret, and it's just smashingly directed, and looks like nothing else ever. That was a great year in movies. (And I think we knew it at the time, too.)

Good point. The cinematography was amazing, added just the right feeling for every scene (I see the art director also won an Oscar).  Probably a good thing that Fosse didn't get his own choice for cinematographer--Robert Surtees who had worked on Sweet Charity with him. (Really surprising that the producers went ahead to let Fosse direct Cabaret after that film which they--like many--thought was a failure. They also insisted he had to keep Grey "or walk away". Re: upthread, I also greatly prefer his performance of the MC to the revival.) 

About editing, I agree with you abpit the editing for certain kinds of musicals (always am grateful, for example, for Astaire's insistence on filming dance with full body in the shot, regardless of the editing. I wish more television directors on dance shows today would do the same. Those cuts to close-ups on feet and faces can be maddening!

But for whatever reason, when it comes to Cabaret I absolutely loved the editing because the songs and musical performances in the Kit Kat Club were like the chorus (Greek one) and so integral to character and plot development that cutting back and forth--and showing the audience which, again with the rise of Nazism was a character, part of the psychology of the time, part of the plot.   (MTV took the concept of jump cuts etc. but just mindlessly cut on the beat because they figured we have no attention span.  For Cabaret, the way the music was filmed and edited was as important as any other part of the story, at least to me. Very original, completely integrated into the film, not just "let's stop and sing". Perfect transfer to film from stage. And it's hard for me to think of another musical that took this approach and succeeded to the same extent, not even All That Jazz which is my other Fosse favorite, but didn't achieve the same effect, probably wasn't even trying to.)

Sobering to think that Fosse was only 60 when he died. (Don't smoke, kids! Especially not 4 packs a day).

Edited September 11, 2016 by Padma

[Jordan Baker]

I saw most of "The Conversation" last night. I hadn't seen it since its original release (1974?). What a great film.

Gene Hackman is wonderful in the lead role, but I focused as much on John Cazale. I've seen all five of the films in which he appeared, and he always shines. It always makes me sad to see him, though. Such a bright light, he was.

[Rinaldo]

True about John Cazale. But in a way, what a career: 5 movies (the two Godfathers, Dog Day Afternoon, The Conversation, The Deer Hunter), and not just "no duds," but all are legitimate candidates for greatness, and all were nominated for Best Picture.

And yes -- The Conversation! Love it love it love it. It's in my own personal all-time top 20 of all time. Just talking about it here makes me want to see it again immediately.

[aradia22]

Reviving the May 6 post about the Bette David/Joan Crawford Ryan Murphy Feud show for FX about "What Ever Happened to Baby Jane?"

I understand what people find compelling about this narrative and the kind of melodrama that will no doubt ensue but it's still a little frustrating. I guess because my understanding of Joan Crawford as an actress started with some of her earlier roles (and also because all this camp and feuding inevitably falls into misogynistic tropes) I don't enjoy this kind of thing that much. I got excited because I initially thought they might start with them as younger rivals and then build up to them as older actresses. This has come up before, but Joan's and Bette's movies often come up in think-pieces as evidence of how it was not strange in the earlier decades of movie making for a woman to carry a movie and to play a compelling character. On the one hand, this show feels like a positive move towards the days when older actresses were still employable as something other than grandmothers. On the other hand, are these kinds of roles any better than the kinds of campy roles that Joan Crawford in particular was playing towards the end of her career?

[ratgirlagogo]

I've never been a real fan of Baby Jane.  I get it, I admire it, but I don't really enjoy it. A dear friend gave me the deluxe 2 DVD edition of it a few years back and was disappointed by my inability to fake enthusiasm for the gift.  Davis was born in 1908 and Crawford in 1905, so in 1961 when this was filmed - there you go.  They weren't what we'd call OLD old but after this film hoo boy they were cast as OLD.   Actresses today like Helen Mirren and Susan Sarandon are playing sexy when they're pushing seventy.

I love William Castle so I love his Crawford vehicles and she is not bad in them - but as John Waters pointed out in his essay on William Castle and his famous  gimmicks , movie stars are the ULTIMATE gimmick and unfortunately he's right - Joan was like Emergo in movies like Berserk and I Saw What You Did.  She is wonderful in the NIght Gallery pilot (Spielberg's first commercial credit BTW) but that's the closest thing to a prestige casting she got at the end of her life.  Bette did somewhat better - The Whales of August is kind of a valentine to her and Lilian Gish, and of course there's the wonderful Death on the Nile - but on the whole she was in TV movies and drive-in horror-which I love, but? it was a little sad  for me even at 14 in the drive in to watch her in Bunny O'Hare.

Edited September 12, 2016 by ratgirlagogo

[Crisopera]

After watching Yolanda and the Thief, I was meditating on the aborted career of Lucille Bremer. I find it interesting to compare her with Cyd Charisse.  They were both gorgeous women, lovely dancers, and minimally talented in the acting department.  Charisse came up through bits in movies (they were both in Ziegfeld Follies, but Charisse was an anonymous dancer and Bremer had two big numbers with Astaire).  They both had good supporting roles in Judy Garland smashes (Bremer in Meet Me in St. Louis as Judy's older sister, and Charisse as one of her main friends in The Harvey Girls).  There has always been the rumor swirling around that Bremer was Arthur Freed's mistress, but that doesn't seem to be substantiated.  MGM was building up Bremer and gave her the lead in Yolanda, which ran her career straight into a brick wall (it was a huge bomb - and it is one weird movie. The numbers are odd, including a long, LONG dream sequence, two dark, Freudian sequences sandwiching an anodynely perky ditty, "Will You Marry Me?"  However, "Coffee Time" is FANTASTIC).  She retired into marriage and left the stage free for Charisse, who never actually became a major star (I doubt anyone ever said, "Let's go to that new Cyd Charisse picture tonight" the way they would have done for Judy Garland.)  But she had a long career and appeared in many of the major MGM musicals.

Edited September 12, 2016 by Crisopera

[Rinaldo]

To the extent of my knowledge (not as deep as yours), that seems a very fair summation to me, Crisopera. Charisse did eventually rise from the level of featured dancer (which she still was in Singin' in the Rain) to recognizable costar -- if she didn't carry a picture by herself, she made a marketable pairing with Kelly, Astaire, Dailey, and even appeared in nonmusicals. And as the movie leads were becoming scarcer, she made creditable solo appearances onstage (e.g. Vegas) and on TV variety shows.

The whole subject of how careers develop (or don't), and why it happens for one person and not another seemingly similar case, always fascinates me.

[Inquisitionist]

On ‎9‎/‎7‎/‎2016 at 9:57 PM, bluepiano said:

I think that once she made The Long Trailer with Desi there was no turning back. It was a very popular movie, and from then on she was America's adorable kookie read head.

The Long, Long Trailer was released in late 1953/early 1954, more than two years into I Love Lucy's TV run.  Wasn't it just capitalizing on the kookie redhead persona she'd already established on TV?  As to why she didn't become a bigger movie star in the 1930s and '40s, well, lots of talented beautiful young actresses didn't.  What's different about Lucille Ball, IMO, is that she managed to parlay her talents into a long-running TV series, which her husband had the prescience to record, so we know more about her story than about those who simply melted into obscurity.

[Milburn Stone]

It is an interesting question about Lucille Bremer. Being in Yolanda didn't help, obviously. (I enjoyed the movie much more on a second viewing, some years after the first; it's actually got a high degree of wit, in my estimation; and at some points Astaire, Frank Morgan and others are quite funny in it. In the rarefied wit department, I pair it with The Pirate in my mind. But whatever I think of it, the movie bombed.) But I think the main reason Bremer didn't have Charisse's career is that while Bremer had real-life beauty, Charisse had movie-star, eyes-popping-out-of-your-head, jaw-dropping-to-the-floor beauty. Another way of saying it is that Bremer had beauty; Charisse had sex.

Edited September 12, 2016 by Milburn Stone

[Crisopera]

Oh, I don't hate Yolanda - but it is a very odd movie. It has an air of rather curdled whimsy.   Mildred Natwick is hilarious.  But I feel kind of sorry for Bremer - that role is absolutely unplayable, a girl so naive that it verges on mental illness.  I can't imagine Judy Garland playing it (it was apparently written for her).  But Bremer danced beautifully with Astaire - in Ziegfeld Follies as well.  And I think you're absolutely right about the difference between Bremer's beauty and Charisse's.  I've always been surprised that MGM didn't pair Charisse and Ava Gardner as sisters - both dark, slightly exotic stunners.

Edited September 12, 2016 by Crisopera

[Rinaldo]

46 minutes ago, Crisopera said:

that role is absolutely unplayable, a girl so naive that it verges on mental illness. 

Rather similar to Lili in the movie of that name, then? (She really didn't know that puppets have human operators?)

Those intrigued by the question of why and how careers succeed or don't might be interested in Frank Langella's memoir, structured as a series of stand-alone chapters about people he's known or worked with. There are certainly disagreements to be had with one or another of his topics, but he speaks his mind and tells good stories (in general, reserving the real dish for those who've died and can't be hurt -- and even so, the jerk in some of his stories is himself, as with the Deborah Kerr chapter). Anyway, he has surprising things to say about some careers. I understand that the audiobook, narrated by himself, is especially effective.

[Crisopera]

Yes, I've always had problems with Lili for the same reason.  And Frank Langella's book is very entertaining - he's always been a favorite of mine.  He gives one of my favorite performances in Dave.  And there's another interesting question about careers - why isn't Kevin Kline a big movie star?  Why doesn't he appeal to the wide public?  I love him, especially in the movie version of The Pirates of Penzance, and found him an absolutely charming leading man in Dave.

[Rinaldo]

Kevin Kline is one of those in-between careers. He has appeal, all right, has carried important roles in some successful movies, has an Academy Award (which is more than, say, Joel McCrea ever got). It's a bit analogous to what Milburn Stone said a short way above: if X has beauty, and similar Y has beauty plus sex, Y will win. That's a ridiculous oversimplification of course, and it doesn't inevitably come down to sex, but I'm coming to think that it does come down to... that mysterious something extra. Kline is a terrific, versatile actor, good company in a story, skilled at comedy both physical and cerebral, charming as you say.  But he's not... mysterious or fascinating; Langella would say that he has no danger. The real stars, I'm coming to think, each give us something that nobody else does.

I say it with regret, as I feel a certain (ridiculous, I acknowledge) solidarity with Kevin Kline, as we both attended Indiana University School of Music at the same time (he was a year ahead of me). By the time he was a senior, he had discovered (and everyone knew) that his destiny lay not with being a pianist and a member of the Singing Hoosiers, but as an actor -- Theatre Department productions were being planned around him. He went off to Juilliard, and right on schedule as soon as his group graduated, I started to hear about him again.

There can be other reasons. I saw Billy Crudup in his professional debut (right out of NYC), on Broadway in Stoppard's Arcadia. He was magnetic, handsome, mysterious, sexy, eloquent -- everything. For years he was on film magazines' fall articles about "the next 10 big stars"; he seemed poised for it. But it never happened. He was in movies, and was good in them, but he was apt to choose offbeat indie projects, or when he chose big-budget pictures he'd be part of an ensemble, never in the image-building role. And between films he would go back to the stage. I think you have to want, or need, to be a star for it to happen, and he just wants to act.

[Inquisitionist]

Quote

why isn't Kevin Kline a big movie star? 

What does it mean to be a "big movie star" these days?   Who in Kline's age bracket (late 60s males) do you think currently qualifies? 

[Mumbles]

Tom Hanks, I think, would fit into that classification. Denzel Washington is a little younger but I would call him a big movie star. And it's a term that is hard to define - an amalgam of being in "big" movies (both budget wise or prestige wise) and critical recognition. Sign up one of those guys and your movie gets greenlit and a lot of publicity when it opens.

That said I prefer Kline to both. Far more range. 

[WendyCR72]

On 9/12/2016 at 9:33 AM, Rinaldo said:

To the extent of my knowledge (not as deep as yours), that seems a very fair summation to me, Crisopera. Charisse did eventually rise from the level of featured dancer

It never happened for her for obvious reasons, but had Something's Got To Give seen the light of day, maybe Charisse's stock would have been a bit higher. Alas, Marilyn Monroe's death/issues beforehand, and Dean Martin refusing to work with a replacement, it never came to be.

Speaking of which, a DVD of Marilyn's final days has what footage of the movie exists as a short film. Naturally, this would be re-titled and remade a year or two later with James Garner and Doris Day as Move Over, Darling!. Still, having seen the remnants of Something's Got To Give - even incomplete - it looked to be the better of the two, to me.