TCM: The Greatest Movie Channel

[Padma]

I'd never seen "The Quiet American" (1958) until today. It was a big disappointment to see that one of my favorite writer/directors, Joseph L. Mankiewicz, did such an injustice to one of Graham Greene's greatest novels. Michael Redgrave was very good--(Audie Murphy, in another key role, less so)--but you wonder why authors can't sue when a film completely changes the point of their book. In this case, Mankiewicz turned a critical look at American policy and colonialism in Vietnam (expressed in very human terms, through the characters, not a polemic) into it's opposite--a rah, rah theme of anti-communism!  Yes, easy to understand how that happened with the McCarthyism and anti-communism of the 1950s, but it doesn't justify completely changing the point of a book. If you can't make your own story that you want, at least change the title!!!  (Of course, it was a best-seller so they'd never do that either.)

Didn't see the 2002 one with Michael Caine and Brendan Fraser. Apparently it was more faithful to the original--and Michael Caine seems perfect casting for the main character--but it still might not have been any good. Did anyone see it?

[Rinaldo]

I have yet to see The Quiet American myself, but reading what @Padma had to say reminded me that I'd read some interesting thoughts about it in Pauline Kael's 5001 Nights at the Movies collection of short write-ups. She agrees about the movie's betrayal of its source, but (no doubt from her years of experience seeing so many disappointments, and trying to find at least bits to enjoy when possible) appreciates some of its elements:

"It was a commercial failure, and it's also an artistic failure, but the theme and the principal characters are of such immediacy and interest that it's far more absorbing than many successful movies with a more conventional subject matter.... There are so many fine things in the film (especially Redgrave's portrait of a man whose cold exterior is just a thin skin over his passionate desperation) that perhaps one can put to the side the offending compromises by which Mankiewicz turned Greene's novel upside down and made the American heroic."

While we're here: Michael Redgrave, huh? Though he considered the stage his real metier, with movies a sideline, did he ever give less than an amazing performance on film? Even the first of them, The Lady Vanishes, where he has to play a pretty conventional juvenile, he does it exactly right. And then we have his ventriloquist episode in Dead of Night, The Browning Version, The Importance of Being Earnest, Oh... Rosalinda! (an updated Fledermaus in which he gets to show off the very nice singing voice that benefited some of his stage roles -- he had been Lerner & Loewe's first choice for My Fair Lady onstage), late-career bits in The Innocents, David Copperfield, Hamlet, and others I haven't caught up with yet. Each distinctive and memorable. 

[prican58]

Rinaldo, I feel the same way about Ralph Richardson. He was always so fascinating to me in a way Olivier never did. Olivier pretty much mesmerizes me with his looks. But I rarely remember seeing him portray a role with anything but a stern seriousness, if that makes any sense. Although Heathcliffe was a vulnerable sort, I suppose. 

[harrie]

11 hours ago, Padma said:

Didn't see the 2002 one [The Quiet American] with Michael Caine and Brendan Fraser. Apparently it was more faithful to the original--and Michael Caine seems perfect casting for the main character--but it still might not have been any good. Did anyone see it?

I saw the 2002 version of The Quiet American some time ago and enjoyed it.  Caine gave a strong performance (IMO), and Brendan Fraser was quite good - again, just my opinion.  It shows up on Sundance or IFC every now and then.  

 

ETA:  Ebert liked it too, and offers a much more intelligent analysis than I did.

Edited May 21, 2017 by harrie

[Rinaldo]

1 hour ago, prican58 said:

Rinaldo, I feel the same way about Ralph Richardson. He was always so fascinating to me in a way Olivier never did. Olivier pretty much mesmerizes me with his looks. But I rarely remember seeing him portray a role with anything but a stern seriousness, if that makes any sense. Although Heathcliffe was a vulnerable sort, I suppose. 

Yes, Richardson is someone else who was primarily dedicated to the stage, but in the last few years thanks to TCM I've discovered that he had a much bigger movie career than I thought, going back a long way. I knew his late-career harrumphing old blusterers, but the range and impact of his roles in The Fallen Idol (what a gem that is), The Heiress, Outcast of the Islands, Our Man in Havana, Long Day's Journey into Night -- and on and on -- just marvelous. And all generally without seeming to "do anything," no special stunts or transformations.

Which is the opposite of Olivier, I suppose, who could be all about disguises and voices -- but I'm not going to use Redgrave and Richardson as sticks to beat Sir Laurence with, because he was wonderful too. If he likes to go for the theatrical flourishes, they're great tricks and he uses them brilliantly. For a contrast to "stern seriousness," how about the panache of his Henry V, the malevolent glee of Richard III, the over-the-top comic adventure of his Macheath (The Beggar's Opera), the slimy seediness of Archie Rice (The Entertainer)? He (like Gielgud -- funny that they used to be considered polar opposites when they seem to occupy similar niches now) may work a different vein from the other two, but they're all great as far as I'm concerned.

[prican58]

Yes, I didn't mean to convey that I dislike Sir Larry. I really do like him and think his Archie is brilliant and Richard III is a great character that I've noticed actors go to town on.

I am thinking Gielgud did the least amount of film work of the 4 of those acting Sirs. Seems his prolific film work was in the last 15 or so years of his life. I do adore him in Arthur.  

I would love to see a fantasy group interview with these guys and the later generation of Brit actors like Sir Alec Guiness, McKellan, Jacobi, Mills and even Patrick Stewart just talkin' Shakespeare and Method acting vs Royal Academy stuff. Wow!

And of course the women of Brit acting from Gladys Cooper all the way down to Maggie Smith and Judi Dench. It will never be but man, how great would that be? If there's a heaven I want to arrange that!

[Rinaldo]

It's true, Gielgud's movie career did blossom at the end. But it's rather miraculous that he got into that very Hollywood Julius Caesar, and that he and Brando have both expressed respect for each other's work in it. Sir John was nervous about how he would come across on film and was, I believe, offered more movie roles than he accepted (he turned down Shaw's Shakespeare, for instance, thinking himself not ready). I'm especially sorry that the BBC video series didn't use him more -- there was the chance to preserve his classic Lear and Prospero, and it didn't happen.

If you've never seen the video series "Playing Shakespare," remedy the lack forthwith! It's a bunch of RSC actors (c. 1982), under the supervision of John Barton, who talks about the indications in the text and how to use them to bring it to life. One has to accept that it's a little more "scripted" than they're pretending (they're not really jumping into unrehearsed speeches or just fortuitously providing a full range of viewpoints), but that's easy to accept when you have Ian McKellen, Judi Dench, Ben Kingsley, Peggy Ashcroft, Roger Rees, Patrick Stewart, David Suchet, and many more sharing viewpoints and launching into all those great speeches.

Edited May 22, 2017 by Rinaldo
Shakespeare and Prospero are different people.

[Silver Raven]

3 hours ago, harrie said:

I saw the 2002 version of The Quiet American some time ago and enjoyed it.  Caine gave a strong performance (IMO), and Brendan Fraser was quite good - again, just my opinion.  It shows up on Sundance or IFC every now and then.  

 

ETA:  Ebert liked it too, and offers a much more intelligent analysis than I did.

Brendan Fraser was capable of good performances (is he still acting?), he was really good in Gods and Monsters.

[Milburn Stone]

2 hours ago, Rinaldo said:

It's true, Gielgud's movie career did blossom at the end. But it's rather miraculous that he got into that very Hollywood Julius Caesar, and that he and Brando have both expressed respect for each other's work in it. Sir John was nervous about how he would come across on film and was, I believe, offered more movie roles than he accepted (he turned down Shaw's Shakespeare, for instance, thinking himself not ready). I'm especially sorry that the BBC video series didn't use him more -- there was the chance to preserve his classic Lear and Shakespeare, and it didn't happen.

Where did I read that Gielgud was actually kind of dumb? A) I know that seems hard to believe given his performances, and B) I don't want to spread calumny (especially if I'm remembering wrong), but I've carried that idea around a long time and it must be because I read it somewhere. Has anybody else?

[Rinaldo]

Nope. But is it possible that what you're remembering is his notorious lack of any filter when speaking? He would say the most tactless things to everybody he knew, apparently not realizing he was doing it at the time. They've now collected a whole book of them (contributed by the "victims"): Gielgoodies! The Wit and Wisdom (and Gaffes) of John Gielgud.

It was especially embarrassing to him because he loved gossip, and was as likely as not to be talking to the person he was being snarky about. But his words could also be directed against himself: "Why are you listening to me? Everybody knows I can't direct."

[ratgirlagogo]

For those of you who have not heard it, you will likely enjoy John Gielgud as Sherlock Holmes and Ralph Richardson as John Watson as much as I do:

https://archive.org/details/1CharlesAugustusMilverton

from the Harry Alan Towers radio version of Sherlock Holmes  they did together between 1954 and 1955.

Edited May 22, 2017 by ratgirlagogo

[prican58]

6 hours ago, Rinaldo said:

It's true, Gielgud's movie career did blossom at the end. But it's rather miraculous that he got into that very Hollywood Julius Caesar, and that he and Brando have both expressed respect for each other's work in it. Sir John was nervous about how he would come across on film and was, I believe, offered more movie roles than he accepted (he turned down Shaw's Shakespeare, for instance, thinking himself not ready). I'm especially sorry that the BBC video series didn't use him more -- there was the chance to preserve his classic Lear and Shakespeare, and it didn't happen.

If you've never seen the video series "Playing Shakespare," remedy the lack forthwith! It's a bunch of RSC actors (c. 1982), under the supervision of John Barton, who talks about the indications in the text and how to use them to bring it to life. One has to accept that it's a little more "scripted" than they're pretending (they're not really jumping into unrehearsed speeches or just fortuitously providing a full range of viewpoints), but that's easy to accept when you have Ian McKellen, Judi Dench, Ben Kingsley, Peggy Ashcroft, Roger Rees, Patrick Stewart, David Suchet, and many more sharing viewpoints and launching into all those great speeches.

Rinaldo, that's a great recommendation. Just checked it out on amazon and may just buy unless it's on youtube or netflix or whatever. 

[voiceover]

21 hours ago, Padma said:

--but you wonder why authors can't sue when a film completely changes the point of their book[...]but it doesn't justify completely changing the point of a book. If you can't make your own story that you want, at least change the title!!!  (Of course, it was a best-seller so they'd never do that either.)

Writers can't sue -- they may, however, whine & grouse, if they don't care about box office receipts.  When producers buy a book (a play; a spec script; a short story) it's in the contract that the writer gives up all rights to the work.  

You'd have to be an incredibly powerful author, who manages to negotiate "say" in the production.  Usually this does not happen.  They don't even want you visiting the set.  

So you as the writer wind up with a check; they as the studio can jettison everything but the title, if they want.  That's the reason Sue Grafton, who worked in the industry, won't sell the rights to her Kinsey Millhone character.

[Insert ancient joke about the blond who goes to Hollywood & sleeps with a writer]

*sighs*

I am now off to soothe myself with Garbo, Gilbert, & "Silent Sundays".

6 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

 I don't want to spread calumny

MS, I'm so delighted that you used that word, you're free to spread it at will!!?

[Padma]

20 hours ago, Rinaldo said:

I have yet to see The Quiet American myself, but reading what @Padma had to say reminded me that I'd read some interesting thoughts about it in Pauline Kael's 5001 Nights at the Movies collection of short write-ups. She agrees about the movie's betrayal of its source, but (no doubt from her years of experience seeing so many disappointments, and trying to find at least bits to enjoy when possible) appreciates some of its elements:

"It was a commercial failure, and it's also an artistic failure, but the theme and the principal characters are of such immediacy and interest that it's far more absorbing than many successful movies with a more conventional subject matter.... There are so many fine things in the film (especially Redgrave's portrait of a man whose cold exterior is just a thin skin over his passionate desperation) that perhaps one can put to the side the offending compromises by which Mankiewicz turned Greene's novel upside down and made the American heroic."

While we're here: Michael Redgrave, huh? Though he considered the stage his real metier, with movies a sideline, did he ever give less than an amazing performance on film? . 

Thanks for the comments from Kael. Maybe if I didn't revere Greene I could be more flexible about that choice, STill, Redgrave was wonderful and, like you, I think he was good in all his films, although I wish there were more.  I wish we could have seen the choices he'd have made as  Higgins,

As for Gielgud and Richardson,  the first play I ever saw made the whole experience very memorable because it was the two of them starring in "No Man's Land" in London (they did it on Broadway too, but it added to the "coolness" factor that it had recently opened in England). It felt so special to be seeing both of them performing in person. There were other great actors I would have felt that way about back then; oddly, I can't really think of anyone now with dual stage and film careers that I'd feel so reverent about seeing in person. Maybe that crossover--and the quality of films available--has just changed too much.

16 hours ago, harrie said:

I saw the 2002 version of The Quiet American some time ago and enjoyed it.  Caine gave a strong performance (IMO), and Brendan Fraser was quite good - again, just my opinion.  It shows up on Sundance or IFC every now and then.  ETA:  Ebert liked it too, and offers a much more intelligent analysis than I did.

Ebert's so positive, including about Fraser as Pyle, that I'm going to look for this one. Caine's an ideal Fowler and it would be gratifying to see them stick to the story.

15 hours ago, Rinaldo said:

If you've never seen the video series "Playing Shakespare," remedy the lack forthwith! It's a bunch of RSC actors (c. 1982), under the supervision of John Barton, who talks about the indications in the text and how to use them to bring it to life. One has to accept that it's a little more "scripted" than they're pretending (they're not really jumping into unrehearsed speeches or just fortuitously providing a full range of viewpoints), but that's easy to accept when you have Ian McKellen, Judi Dench, Ben Kingsley, Peggy Ashcroft, Roger Rees, Patrick Stewart, David Suchet, and many more sharing viewpoints and launching into all those great speeches.

I've never heard of this, but sounds like a bargain at $26 for over 7 hours of great actors talking about playing Shakespeare and performing bits (plus a 20 page viewers guide). Looking forward to it.  Great tip.

Edited May 22, 2017 by Padma

[Crisopera]

I think that an American version of the Gielgud/Richardson/Olivier stage/film career is Kevin Kline.  He won an Oscar and is on track to win his third Tony for the current revival of Noel Coward's Present Laughter.  He'd be Sir Kevin if he was British.

[psychoticstate]

Did anyone else catch "You Were Never Lovelier" on Saturday?  Embarrassed to say this was the first Fred Astaire/Rita Hayworth pairing I'd seen.  While the plot line of the film is strictly formulaic, Fred and Rita were fantastic.  Their dance sequences were amazing.  

[Rinaldo]

I try to catch at least some of You Were Never Lovelier any time it's shown. The pair made only two films together, both beginning with "You" (the first and lesser of the two is You'll Never Get Rich). After being teamed with Ginger Rogers so many times, Astaire was determined not to get tied down to a double act again, so he never let himself be paired with the same woman more than twice. And though they were both marvelous dancers, the combination needed some care to make them really match up (for my money, they don't quite click in You'll Never Get Rich), but they'd worked out the kinks for this return engagement, and they had some good new Kern songs to work with. I especially enjoy "Shorty George," one of the "buddy dances" that were such a distinctive part of Astaire's onscreen flirtations.

[psychoticstate]

2 hours ago, Rinaldo said:

I try to catch at least some of You Were Never Lovelier any time it's shown. The pair made only two films together, both beginning with "You" (the first and lesser of the two is You'll Never Get Rich). After being teamed with Ginger Rogers so many times, Astaire was determined not to get tied down to a double act again, so he never let himself be paired with the same woman more than twice. And though they were both marvelous dancers, the combination needed some care to make them really match up (for my money, they don't quite click in You'll Never Get Rich), but they'd worked out the kinks for this return engagement, and they had some good new Kern songs to work with. I especially enjoy "Shorty George," one of the "buddy dances" that were such a distinctive part of Astaire's onscreen flirtations.

The Shorty George was brilliant.  Really enjoyed it and Rita was just gorgeous.  I haven't seen many of her films so I'm making it a point to hunt down a few more.   I did DVR "Gilda," which also aired on Saturday. 

I've never been a huge musical fan (although I'm coming around) so I've missed out on Astaire/Rogers pairings as well.  Need to rectify that. 

[Rinaldo]

Let us know how you like Gilda  when you see it.

For the Astaire-Rogers flicks, my favorite is Swing Time (another Kern score!), but Top Hat, Shall We Dance, Follow the Fleet, and even The Gay Divorcée (where they're still kind of figuring out the format) will do the job nicely.

For another Rita Hayworth musical, definitely watch out for Cover Girl; it pops up on TCM pretty often. In color with Gene Kelly (and Phil Silvers as sidekick), Jerome Kern again (Ira Gershwin lyrics), and it's right in her prime period: You Were Never Lovelier was 1942, Cover Girl 1944, and Gilda 1946. I have a feeling I went on about it just a page or two back, so I'll shut up now.

[Crisopera]

You Were Never Lovelier is not my favorite, because the plotline is so creepy.  (Dad writes romantic letters to headstrong unmarried daughter to soften her up for romance with man of his choice - it's Cyrano with incest!)  But it does have some nice numbers (I also love "The Shorty George", although I'm not a big fan of "Dearly Beloved").

I agree about Swing Time being my favorite Astaire/Rogers; George Stevens was a terrific comedy director before he came down with a case of the slow and ponderous after the war (Giant, The Diary of Anne Frank).  And what a score! I also have a soft spot for Roberta, even though Fred and Ginger are supporting.  Irene Dunne is terrific (I believe she played Magnolia in Show Boat on tour before going to Hollywood) and Randolph Scott...well, he was pretty.  He's one of those gorgeous actors who got better with age and experience, like Tyrone Power and Robert Taylor.

[prican58]

Quote

I can't really think of anyone now with dual stage and film careers that I'd feel so reverent about seeing in person. Maybe that crossover--and the quality of films available--has just changed too much.

Padma, I would say McKellan. I saw him for the first time back in the 70s on a PBS presentation of Edward II by Christopher Marlowe and I was floored. Truly, he was a marvel. I try to see everything he is in. If he presented himself to me I would be star struck.

 

Edited May 22, 2017 by prican58

[Padma]

Here's "The Shorty George".   Rita's so good, but I miss the chemistry between Fred and Ginger. You really notice the threadbare (and, yes, kind of creepy-mean) plot, when that chemistry's missing.  (Also, I wish Gershwin could have done the music as he *got* Latin better than Kern) My favorite Rita musical may be "Pal Joey" with its great Rogers and Hart score. I like the Sinatra story when they asked why, as the bigger star, he let Rita have top billing. "Ladies First" he said, later adding she'd been Columbia's top billed star since "Cover Girl" ( 1944) and should keep it (even though her career was no longer on the upswing and his was, following "From Here to Eternity")

Quote

Prican58:
Padma, I would say McKellan. I saw him for the first time back in the 70s on a PBS presentation of Edward II by Christopher Marlowe and I was floored. Truly, he was a marvel. I try to see everything he is in. If he presented himself to me I would be star struck.

 

Yes, I would be in awe seeing him, too. Great choice. Plus it reminds me he and Patrick Stewart perform together in "No Man's Land".  I'd be star struck to see both of them, perhaps even a bit moreso at this point, having grown up with both of them.  (I'm embarrassed that as respected and versatile as Kevin Kline is, Tony and Academy award winner, I'm not very familiar with his work, maybe only "The Big Chill" and "Pirates of Penzance" (film). I liked him in both, but I feel I've missed most his career somehow. Not sure how that happened.)

Edited May 23, 2017 by Padma

[bmoore4026]

In watching Whatever Happened to Baby Jane and Straight Jacket tonight, I can't get over that Joan Crawford was truly a beautiful woman even in her later years.  Hell, they had Autumn Leaves on not to long ago and I couldn't believe she was in her early 50s at the time; she looked that good.

And she really was an amazing actress.  I do wonder, if she were nominated for Baby Jane, if she could have won.

[mariah23]

We got two for TCM Remembers: Sir Roger Moore and Dina Merrill.  They both lived long lives at 89 and 93 respectively.

Edited May 23, 2017 by mariah23

[ebk57]

15 hours ago, Padma said:

Yes, I would be in awe seeing him, too. Great choice. Plus it reminds me he and Patrick Stewart perform together in "No Man's Land".  I'd be star struck to see both of them, perhaps even a bit moreso at this point, having grown up with both of them.  (I'm embarrassed that as respected and versatile as Kevin Kline is, Tony and Academy award winner, I'm not very familiar with his work, maybe only "The Big Chill" and "Pirates of Penzance" (film). I liked him in both, but I feel I've missed most his career somehow. Not sure how that happened.)

Sir Ian was at my humble theatre way back about 30 years ago (oy vey) doing his one-man show "Acting Shakespeare".  He couldn't have been nicer. We especially like to recall how he talked to any and all of the kids who came to see the show (with school groups) for as long as they wanted to chat.  A lovely man.

[voiceover]

On 5/22/2017 at 8:04 PM, bmoore4026 said:

In watching Whatever Happened to Baby Jane and Straight Jacket tonight, I can't get over that Joan Crawford was truly a beautiful woman even in her later years.  Hell, they had Autumn Leaves on not to long ago and I couldn't believe she was in her early 50s at the time; she looked that good.

Agreed.  Of course, you wouldn't have known this if your exposure to Crawford was limited to Feud (or Mommie Dearest).  After 6+ hours of the Ryan Murphy Experience, I wondered why Joan (or Bette) (or I) ever left the house without wearing a paper bag.

Change of subject.

One of the reasons I adore Gone With the Wind is that, like the movie archaeologists of yore, I find something new with every viewing.

Tonight's:

The moment at Aunt Pitty's, when Scarlett ascends the staircase to assist Melanie (who's in labor).  Vivien Leigh has this look on her face...like she's walking up to the guillotine. 

But she squares her shoulders and just does it.  It's the Ellen O'Hara in her coming out.  It's a tiny moment that portends a huge character shift.  

And I *loved* recognizing that. (Finally!)

[Milburn Stone]

7 hours ago, voiceover said:

One of the reasons I adore Gone With the Wind is that, like the movie archaeologists of yore, I find something new with every viewing.

Funny you should say that, because I noticed something I hadn't before, in the portion of the film I saw last night.

It was the section of the film depicting Scarlett and Rhett's honeymoon, up through the birth of Bonnie. And I realized that the entire story was being told in rather short scenes dissolving into one another, in the manner of a montage. And the extended use of this technique--accounting as it did for several minutes of screen time--seemed to me somewhat atypical of movies of the thirties, but reminded me strongly of a certain movie that came after. Namely Citizen Kane! Most famously, the portion depicting the decay of Kane's marriage, told through a montage of scenes of increasing distance between Kane and his wife at the dining table, but not limited to that section of the movie. Welles gets great credit as an innovative filmmaker for those montages, and he should, but I wonder if this portion of GwtW gave him a little inspiration.

Edited May 24, 2017 by Milburn Stone

[ebk57]

10 hours ago, voiceover said:

Change of subject.

One of the reasons I adore Gone With the Wind is that, like the movie archaeologists of yore, I find something new with every viewing.

Tonight's:

The moment at Aunt Pitty's, when Scarlett ascends the staircase to assist Melanie (who's in labor).  Vivien Leigh has this look on her face...like she's walking up to the guillotine. 

But she squares her shoulders and just does it.  It's the Ellen O'Hara in her coming out.  It's a tiny moment that portends a huge character shift.  

And I *loved* recognizing that. (Finally!)

This is also the moment in the movie that I really noticed her English accent - as she walks up the stairs she says "The doctor's not coming.  Nobody is coming."  (or close to that)  Thanks for pointing out something else to look for there.

[psychoticstate]

On 5/22/2017 at 8:04 PM, bmoore4026 said:

In watching Whatever Happened to Baby Jane and Straight Jacket tonight, I can't get over that Joan Crawford was truly a beautiful woman even in her later years.  Hell, they had Autumn Leaves on not to long ago and I couldn't believe she was in her early 50s at the time; she looked that good.

And she really was an amazing actress.  I do wonder, if she were nominated for Baby Jane, if she could have won.

Major Joan Crawford fan checking in!  Yes, Joan was a beautiful, photogenic woman.  Autumn Leaves is one of my favorites.  I think the older woman/younger man story was done so well here.  

I think she could be terribly underrated as an actress.  Sure, she did some fluff pics where stellar acting wasn't a priority but she did turn in some fantastic performances.  I thought she was excellent in Grand Hotel, Paid, Possessed (both of them), A Woman's Face (she should have been nominated), Mildred Pierce, Humoresque and Autumn Leaves.  I like her in Susan and God and really enjoyed her with Melvyn Douglas in They All Kissed the Bride.  She could do comedy very well with the right script and director. 

I think if she had been nominated for Baby Jane, despite deserving the nom, she and Bette would have cancelled each other out.  While Bette's nomination was certainly justifiable, Joan's role was equally as good but often times gets overlooked because it's not showy. 

[Padma]

On ‎5‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 11:31 AM, ebk57 said:

Sir Ian was at my humble theatre way back about 30 years ago (oy vey) doing his one-man show "Acting Shakespeare".  He couldn't have been nicer. We especially like to recall how he talked to any and all of the kids who came to see the show (with school groups) for as long as they wanted to chat.  A lovely man.

What a wonderful experience! Thanks for sharing -- it's great to know that Sir Ian is as nice as he seems.

[prican58]

Watched a chunk of Pal Joey last night. I really like this film. Sinatra's singing in this is just terriffic and a I dig that koo koo lingo he spouts. (Ring a ding plans!) I had to bail after he sang Lady Is a Tramp. It's a defintive performance. It reminded me of just how much I love him. It's been a while since I've listened to him. 

I just learned a bit of Hollywood history here... 

http://pre-code.com/short-just-around-the-corner-1933-review-with-warren-william-joan-blondell-dick-powell-and-bette-davis/

Edited May 25, 2017 by prican58

[voiceover]

Watching Elvis Mitchell interviewing Bill Murray for "TCM Under the Influence".  I needed the mental sorbet (watched the Dirty Dancing remake last night, and I still feel...dirty).

Murray talks about Bill Holden & Stalag 17, which he describes as a "Swiss watch" -- as in, all the parts worked together perfectly.  Man, I *loved* that!!  

I might not apply it to that movie (though my dad would have agreed -- he loved that picture, and Holden; he is the one who introduced me to it) but I love the idea behind it, and I'd certainly slap that onto, say, Room With a View.

How come Elvis Mitchell isn't a regular host?  I'd dig him way more than that other guy who looks to be the new Ben.

Edited May 26, 2017 by voiceover

[bluepiano]

On ‎5‎/‎20‎/‎2017 at 2:04 PM, Milburn Stone said:

I'm just glad to find out there's one kid like your nephew. Sometimes one feels there aren't any.

The human race is not doomed. (Necessarily.)

I'm a musician, so I feel the same way when I meet young people who have rejected the crap being shoved down their throats today and have gone back to listen to classic American popular music (including jazz and blues) from earlier eras. Yes, I know that "crap" is a value judgement. I'm guilty. I confess.

[StrictTime]

On 5/25/2017 at 4:54 PM, prican58 said:

Watched a chunk of Pal Joey last night. I really like this film. Sinatra's singing in this is just terriffic and a I dig that koo koo lingo he spouts. (Ring a ding plans!) I had to bail after he sang Lady Is a Tramp. It's a defintive performance. It reminded me of just how much I love him. It's been a while since I've listened to him. 

I just learned a bit of Hollywood history here... 

http://pre-code.com/short-just-around-the-corner-1933-review-with-warren-william-joan-blondell-dick-powell-and-bette-davis/

Thanks (I think!) for the link.  I have work to do, but have been reading that site for hours.  Great find for TCM fans.

[Milburn Stone]

8 hours ago, bluepiano said:

I'm a musician, so I feel the same way when I meet young people who have rejected the crap being shoved down their throats today and have gone back to listen to classic American popular music (including jazz and blues) from earlier eras. Yes, I know that "crap" is a value judgement. I'm guilty. I confess.

I am also guilty of this. Yet somehow I don't feel guilty. It's the culture that is guilty.

[prican58]

What I really think is that those of us who are Baby Boomers (especially those of us born after 1955) have been exposed to so many musical genres and styles that we are able to appreciate most music without seeming like a "Hey kids, get off my lawn" guy. I grew up in the 60's and 70s and was saturated in tv variety shows where I got to know the old show biz vets and the Great American Songbook tunes as well as being able to hear 1950s doo wop/early rock n roll on the radio. I also got my pop music/ r&b/AOR/country in large doses. I also was young enough to be exposed to and appreciate old school hip hop being that I lived a good amount of that time in Brooklyn and The Bronx. Plus as a person of Latin American descent I had a soundtrack of salsa and merengue growing up.

While I don't really love todays music I can appreciate a lot of it and I understand why it's popular. I even have about 3 "urban music" pre sets in my car just to keep myself aware of what's going on.

But in the end I always go back to the stuff I grew up with.

I was watching Sgt York last night while at my parents' place. My mom and I just love this movie and while we know everything that's coming we still just love it. Also watched part of The Steel Helmet. Damn, that and Battleground are just about the best war movies ever. 

[prican58]

Getting back to the British Sirs, I just found this.

http://streamline.filmstruck.com/2017/05/26/quirks-quips-and-q-planes-1939/#more-99182

Edited May 28, 2017 by prican58

[prican58]

I am watching Operation Crossbow, really just because it's on but I do have a kind of crush on George Peppard and Tom Courtenay is always interesting to watch. In the early scenes with the German officers during the test flight I noticed Helmut Dantine immediately (the Bulgarian newlywed Rick helps win at roulette) but surprisingly I didn't recognize Paul Henreid. I watched the trailer for it on youtube and realized that I had "recognized" Henreid but couldn't place the face. "I know this face", I said to myself. Damn, he looked so old and he was only in his late 50s. He died at 84. Hmmm.  Also noticed that Richard Todd is in this but so far I haven't seen his character utter a single word. I love his accent.

Wow, this is interesting.  

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/cinemasexiles/biographies/the-actors/biography-paul-henreid/209/

Edited May 29, 2017 by prican58

[Charlie Baker]

I was able to have a daytime indulgence in TCM this week for the first time in a while.  From a day of Frank Morgan movies, I saw three I hadn't before.  The Cat and the FIddle is based on a stage musical and has Morgan out of his usual dithery mode as an impresario who comes between composer Ramon Novarro and singer Jeannette McDonald while producing Novarro's operetta. It was quaint, light and fun, and the climax was in color, which probably knocked the socks off a 1934 audience,

Trouble for Two had Morgan back in his more familiar persona as attendant to crown prince Robert Montgomery, out to find adventure and sensation, and finds it with a group of well-to-dos who supposedly have a club whose members wish to end it all and draw cards to see who gets killed and who kills them. It's based on a Robert Louis Stevenson story., The leading lady was a cool and restrained Rosalind Russell.  This one had some effective, creepy suspense, and fun banter between Morgan and Montgomery.

The movie I was most curious about was The Emperor's Candlesticks, because it was an entry in one of my favorites' filmographies that I hadn't seen.  Meaning Mr. WiIliam Powell.  He played a Polish nobleman who spies on Russia.  Luise Rainer played a Russian countess who spies on Poland and has evidence to expose Powell.  Both these operatives smuggled information in, you guessed it, antique candlesticks with secret compartments.  The plot revolving around the whereabouts of these candlesticks was quite convoluted, and of course the two leads supposedly fell in love.  I say supposedly because there wasn't a lot of chemistry or connection between them to be seen, but their performances were professional.  Morgan was a dithery Russian military man attached to Robert Young, a young Russian noble lured into Polish clutches by Maureen O'Sullivan, since the Russians were holding her character's father.  The story originated with Baroness Orczy, creator of The Scarlet Pimpernel.  It's given a grand MGM production.

None of these qualify as landmark cinema, but it was so enjoyable to be able to see them.  One of my favorite things about TCM is the chance to catch films like these. 

[Rinaldo]

After seeing Separate Tables for the first time recently, my usual question watching older movies, "Was S.Z. Sakall in everything?", has been replaced by "Was Gladys Cooper ever young?" OK, I know she must have been, and Wikipedia shows a glam photo of her from 1913. But for much of my life I knew her only as Mrs. Higgins in My Fair Lady, and assumed that 10 or 20 years earlier, she'd been a looker playing ingenue (or at least stylish-matron) roles. But no, there she is as a nasty dowager in S.T., and there she is in 1942 playing Bette Davis's horror of a mother in Now, Voyager.

1 hour ago, Charlie Baker said:

The Cat and the FIddle is based on a stage musical and has Morgan out of his usual dithery mode as an impresario who comes between composer Ramon Novarro and singer Jeannette McDonald while producing Novarro's operetta. It was quaint, light and fun, and the climax was in color, which probably knocked the socks off a 1934 audience,

As a scholar of the history of musicals, its scheduling promised joy; I would get to see this important seldom-screened film at last! Then disappointment: My DVR recorded only an hour of it! I watched it (of which more below) and then got cut off mid-scene! But when I explored alternatives, I found that it's unexpectedly available on DVD. I liked what I'd seen, so relief: It's on the way, and I'll see the end.

Anyway: The Cat and the Fiddle is one of the most fascinating of all the Kern stage musicals (and commercially successful too, against all the odds), dealing with composers and performers in Brussels, with lots of continuous music and underscoring of dialogue, and cleverly contrived so that all the singing is "diegetic" -- the characters are really singing in the story, performing onstage or demonstrating songs to each other. One surprise about the movie, in an era where screen versions of musicals tended to dump all the songs and perhaps add a couple of new ones, is that most of the stage score was retained, and the Brussels setting was retained (even more picturesquely than onstage, as we can see across the rooftops) and the character names too. Another surprise is that, despite all that, the story is largely new (I don't yet know how it turns out, of course): songs are repurposed in new situations, occasionally with some new lyrics. But it's stuffed full of music, and that's rare and unexpected for the period.

Another surprise is my first real look at Ramon Novarro. I'd seen him in the silent Ben-Hur, and knew of his reputation as one of the designated "Latin lover" types of the period. In fact, in this movie he's boyish and lively and funny and altogether charming -- not a hint of movie-star posing. And he sings! He and MacDonald are great fun together, and I can't wait to see the end.

[voiceover]

1 hour ago, Rinaldo said:

Another surprise is my first real look at Ramon Novarro. I'd seen him in the silent Ben-Hur, and knew of his reputation as one of the designated "Latin lover" types of the period. In fact, in this movie he's boyish and lively and funny and altogether charming -- not a hint of movie-star posing. And he sings! He and MacDonald are great fun together, and I can't wait to see the end.

Hmph.  Proof that you must be skipping my posts on this thread.

I've written at length about RN: next to Valentino, Fairbanks, Gilbert, and Colman, one of the most memorable of the silent leading men.  The "Boy King", who could be shyly charming and goofball funny and heroically self-sacrificing, usually in a ten-minute sequence.  For proof of this, look no further than The Student Prince of Old Heidelberg, featuring Norma Shearer as the plucky barmaid who wins his heart, but (sadly) not his hand.

*climbs down from lecture podium*

So tonight I was just starting to blub at the end of Pollyanna, when Agnes Moorehead showed up to throw some vinegar on the sugary ending.  I burst out laughing instead.  Now *there's* an actress I've grown to appreciate far above & beyond Endora, the MIL-from-hell.

[Rinaldo]

6 hours ago, voiceover said:

Hmph.  Proof that you must be skipping my posts on this thread.

Nope. Just an increasingly fallible memory. (And I used to have such a good one, too.)

[Milburn Stone]

13 hours ago, Rinaldo said:

Anyway: The Cat and the Fiddle is one of the most fascinating of all the Kern stage musicals (and commercially successful too, against all the odds), dealing with composers and performers in Brussels, with lots of continuous music and underscoring of dialogue, and cleverly contrived so that all the singing is "diegetic" -- the characters are really singing in the story, performing onstage or demonstrating songs to each other.

This puts me in mind of a tangent, which I know you know, Rinaldo, but which may of interest to others.

I can't remember where I read it (maybe an Ethan Mordden book?), but the observation was correct: In every Fox musical of the forties and early fifties (with the exception of Rodgers and Hammerstein's State Fair, and maybe Kern's Centennial Summer, and I guess the Gershwin's The Shocking Miss Pilgrim, if I remember that movie correctly), every single number is diegetic. The characters don't sing unless they really would, i.e., in a nightclub, on the stage, or demonstrating a song. No character ever sings in a non-showbusiness setting simply to express an emotion too large to be expressed in dialogue. (Which, of course, is an exhilarating way to handle songs in a musical, when done right, as MGM often did.) This directive came from Zanuck, who considered non-diegetic songs "phony" or too straining of the audience's credulity, or something.

This changed at Fox in the mid-fifties when they started doing R&H's transfers from the stage (Oklahoma!, Carousel, King and I). But once you know this fact about the Fox musicals of the forties and early fifties, you start observing, and damn if it doesn't hold almost completely true.

Edited June 3, 2017 by Milburn Stone

[Rinaldo]

I wasn't aware of that as a specific Fox rule, @Milburn Stone, but I've certainly noticed the practice in certain film musicals of that period. Now I'll look out for it specially. Those who've read Sondheim's second book collection of lyrics, Look, I Made a Hat, will recall that he planned to play with this convention in his film musical with William Goldman, Singing Out Loud, which was partially written but never produced. At the beginning, all the singing was to be diegetic, or voice-over thoughts, or fantasy, but as the emotions grew in the course of the story, this convention would be increasingly tested until by the end the characters found the courage to sing their emotions -- to "sing out loud." The published sequences are so fascinating to read, I hope a way is found someday to make them available to see and hear too: the cinematic element is so important, the only way might be to actually cast and create video recordings of them all.

More on The Cat and the Fiddle: I found that I couldn't wait for the DVD I ordered, so I watched it on tcm.com. They really did find a use for most of the sung music from the show, but to almost entirely new purposes. The characters are changed too: Shirley, though she's a popular songwriter at the start (as onstage), by the end has mysteriously morphed into a singing star who saves the day. It all becomes a much more conventional backstager-with-misunderstandings onscreen, which is presumably what the Spewacks were ordered to write. And the show within the movie has become vastly more conventional too, a real dirndls-and-uniforms old-school (even then) operetta. Whereas in the stage show it was a chic "modernistic" item, with arch French narrators, and Pierrot and Pierrette and black velvet scenery and all. The color sequence at the end certainly is a kick.

Fun facts about the participants: The stage portrayer of Victor (Novarro's role) was Georges Metaxa, who had his moment of glory onscreen as the rival bandleader in Swing Time. The rival soprano in the movie, Vivienne Segal, is a real piece of Broadway history (what a treat to finally see her, even though they only let her sing a tiny bit): She had starred in a very early Kern show, and was a mainstay of the late-1920s resurgence of operetta, being the original leading lady in The Desert Song and The Three Musketeers. Then she became a valued star of up-to-date musical comedies like I Married an Angel and the revised Connecticut Yankee (you can hear her sing "To Keep My Love Alive" on that cast album), her finest moment being the portrayal of jaded socialite Vera Simpson in the original Pal Joey and its revival a decade later. So she was the first to sing "Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered" (with its salacious original lyrics -- seriously, look them up if you've only heard the cleaned-up sheet-music words).

[Charlie Baker]

Supposedly, according to both TCM and imdb, Ms. McDonald was responsible for reducing Vivienne Segal's role in the movie.

[Rinaldo]

There's a rumor to that effect, but I know of no real substantiation. (All the Trivia sentences are clearly just copied and pasted from one site to the other.) Isn't it the sort of thing that's always said when there are two unequal women's roles in a movie?

[Crisopera]

"Classic Arts Showcase" (on the CUNY channel in NYC) is a jumble of arts clips that's been on for the last 23/24 years.  It's mostly classical music, and they have the occasional operetta clip - most recently, a clip from a 1972 German version of Lehar's Der Zarewitsch starring Teresa Stratas (she also shows up in clips from Lehar's Paganini from around the same time).  In case anyone is interested in operetta, or classical music in general, the clips are pretty good and it's worth recording it every day and fast forwarding through uninteresting stuff (Andrea Bocelli, etc.).  It shows across the country, mostly on college or local channels.

[voiceover]

12 hours ago, Rinaldo said:

Nope. Just an increasingly fallible memory. (And I used to have such a good one, too.)

Eh, we kid because we love.

[Crisopera]

Is anyone else as fond of the James FitzPatrick Traveltalks as I am? Granted, the narration has too much of the "smiling, happy peasants" stuff, but the documentary footage (in Technicolor!) is amazing.  It's just fascinating to see this footage from the 1930s and 1940s.  I'm always happy when one comes up in the interstitials.

[prican58]

Crisopera, CAS is a great way to see stuff one never expects to see. It can be addictive.