Approach The Bench: Law & Order General Discussion Thread

[merylinkid]

They were in family court.   The family court judge really really wanted to believe she could be helped.   The judge also knew the state institution was not going to actually treat her.   All it would take is some psychiatrist after a few years of drugging her and restraining her at state expense to say "she's cured" and she back on the streets.   With no restrictions.   At least this way, they could impose some conditions on her.   And if Mom didn't leave up to her end of the bargain -- one missed court visit which you KNOW will happen -- and boom Jenny is in institution.   I can see the court wanting to at least try.  

But yeah, Mom was piece of work "I grounded her" when she beat up a little boy.   "I'll watch her like a hawk."  Yeah, because you didn't even know she killed the neighbor's cat.   "She's my best friend" is the worst of all.   She's your kid, not your best friend.   Maybe making her your best friend instead of treating her like a kid you had to parent was the problem.

Skoda "Let;s forget predictors.  She's already killed someone" was the best.   Everyone acting like this kid doesn't have the chance to turn into a killer.   Umm, she killed a little boy for the hell of it.   She is way more likely to kill again than the person who got mad at someone and just lost control.   

As you can see I don't much like this one either.   It does show what is the problem when killers are too young to really appreciate what "dead" means, but we know are a danger to society.

[GHScorpiosRule]

5 minutes ago, merylinkid said:

They were in family court.   The family court judge really really wanted to believe she could be helped.   The judge also knew the state institution was not going to actually treat her.   All it would take is some psychiatrist after a few years of drugging her and restraining her at state expense to say "she's cured" and she back on the streets.   With no restrictions.   At least this way, they could impose some conditions on her.   And if Mom didn't leave up to her end of the bargain -- one missed court visit which you KNOW will happen -- and boom Jenny is in institution.   I can see the court wanting to at least try.  

But yeah, Mom was piece of work "I grounded her" when she beat up a little boy.   "I'll watch her like a hawk."  Yeah, because you didn't even know she killed the neighbor's cat.   "She's my best friend" is the worst of all.   She's your kid, not your best friend.   Maybe making her your best friend instead of treating her like a kid you had to parent was the problem.

Skoda "Let;s forget predictors.  She's already killed someone" was the best.   Everyone acting like this kid doesn't have the chance to turn into a killer.   Umm, she killed a little boy for the hell of it.   She is way more likely to kill again than the person who got mad at someone and just lost control.   

As you can see I don't much like this one either.   It does show what is the problem when killers are too young to really appreciate what "dead" means, but we know are a danger to society.

@merylinkid, I think you meant "live"(bolded mine)!?

But yeah, as much as I love this episode, I hated how some of the characters acted as if she were some gentle speshial snowflake, who didn't mean to kill the cat or boy.  And that evil little smile she had on her face at the end? She was looking at her next victim.

I was very disappointed in Olivet as well, because in previous seasons, she was tougher. Maybe I'm cynical and wonder if Caroline McCormick being pregnant in real life had anything to do with changing this attitude of Olivet. 

I blame the mother for how her child turned out-exposing her child to prostitution she (mom) was doing in their apartment, to letting her johns try to molest/rape her. That probably was what set her on that path-kill them before they can grow up to molest and rape. Or maybe I'm just being overly generous/naive.

But I give Major Kudos to Hallie Hirschfield, who played the killer-she gave me the heebie jeebies and chilled me to the bone.

[bubble sparkly]

I would have loved to see a follow-up to Killerz in a later season, when Jenny was say 16.  You know she would have started killing teenage boys, especially ones who tried to hit on her.  If it had been in season 16 when Green, Van Buren and McCoy were still there it would have been great as they were all involved in Killerz, plus then could have all given a big "I told you so" to Olivet.

Edited March 6, 2017 by bubble sparkly

[merylinkid]

HOw many times did they do follow ups?

I know they did one where the abuser was released from prison and later got run over.   OH DARN.

And the guy who murdered both his wives.   

[Xeliou66]

They did follow ups to those 2, plus season 3's Conspiracy was followed up on in season 7's Entrapment. 

I would've loved to see a follow up to Killerz, Jenny would've killed again and I would've liked to have seen them follow up on that and have Olivet get ripped for defending Jenny.

[WendyCR72]

1 hour ago, merylinkid said:

I know they did one where the abuser was released from prison and later got run over.   OH DARN.

Because I loved the first and remembered the follow up (even as I had major issues with it due to some glaring continuity gaffes!), they were "Indifference" from S1 and "Fixed" from S15. You're welcome.  :-)

Besides the Mothership, I know CI also had some follow through with some episodes/characters. SVU, I'm not sure. But I liked it because it seemed more "real", somehow.

[Xeliou66]

What were the continuity errors in Fixed? It's been a while since I've seen it but I don't remember the errors, it seemed faithful to the first one, they even got Cragen to appear. 

All of the shows have very good continuity, and they will sometimes make small references to past episodes, I can remember several of these throughout the L&O franchise.

[WendyCR72]

50 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

What were the continuity errors in Fixed? It's been a while since I've seen it but I don't remember the errors, it seemed faithful to the first one, they even got Cragen to appear. 

All of the shows have very good continuity, and they will sometimes make small references to past episodes, I can remember several of these throughout the L&O franchise.

Well, for one thing, Cragen was NOT the investigating officer, as he had implied. He was the captain. Logan and Greevey investigated, so I don't get Cragen saying he flashed back to this case. (As an aside, the credits for the character were also wrong. Think he was said to be Lt. Cragen. Ha.)

I'm pretty sure Jacob Lowenstein was sentenced to 25 years to life, which in 1990 meant he'd have gotten out in 2015, not 2005.

And while I'm sure Carla Lowenstein was partly what she was thanks to hubby, "Fixed" made it seem like she was the poor victimized wife, blameless for what happened to their daughter. And...no. And - as far as I am concerned, no way in hell would she be allowed to work around kids considering the crime she was convicted of.

At least Ezra had a happy ending.

But, yeah, while it was cool to have follow up, I wish whomever wrote it paid attention to the details since it was such a seminal case for the show [based on the tragic Lisa Steinberg case as was stated at the end of "Indifference"].

[Xeliou66]

Cragen was the captain and he was involved in the investigation, it was never said he was the investigating officer. Greevey was dead and they probably couldn't get Logan to appear so Cragen was the logical choice, and I enjoyed seeing him again on L&O. As for Lowenstein's release, I've heard about people getting parole early several years before their sentence term was supposed to end so I didn't find that unrealistic. 

[mattie0808]

I assume they did the follow up in 2005 since Joel Steinberg was released in 2004. He was sentenced to 8 1/3 to 25 in 1988 (Lisa was killed toward the end of 1987), so he did a long stint, though it wasn't the full max. I do think it's better that L& O fudged their character's release date rather than wait another 10 years for the follow-up, as that was an excellent episode. And the take on the wife in the follow-up pretty much does seem to match up with a widely held POV toward Hedda Naussbaum, at least from what I recall of there being two entrenched camps -- one that she was nearly as much a victim as Lisa and one that she got off easy when she may have gone as far as to participate in Joel's crimes and abuse.

[Calamity Jane]

On 3/5/2017 at 8:05 AM, GHScorpiosRule said:

@merylinkid, I think you meant "live"(bolded mine)!?

But yeah, as much as I love this episode, I hated how some of the characters acted as if she were some gentle speshial snowflake, who didn't mean to kill the cat or boy.  And that evil little smile she had on her face at the end? She was looking at her next victim.

I was very disappointed in Olivet as well, because in previous seasons, she was tougher. Maybe I'm cynical and wonder if Caroline McCormick being pregnant in real life had anything to do with changing this attitude of Olivet. 

I blame the mother for how her child turned out-exposing her child to prostitution she (mom) was doing in their apartment, to letting her johns try to molest/rape her. That probably was what set her on that path-kill them before they can grow up to molest and rape. Or maybe I'm just being overly generous/naive.

But I give Major Kudos to Hallie Hirschfield, who played the killer-she gave me the heebie jeebies and chilled me to the bone.

I was always fascinated with the differences in approach between Olivet and Skoda.  She usually seemed to have a more optimistic viewpoint, whereas he seemed more coldly realistic to me.  They reminded me of some of the school psychs we dealt with - one would imply in ninety different ways that the teacher was at fault for all of a student's learning issues (I remember one who recommended, straight-faced, that I sit beside one student during every math lesson to be sure he was engaged and understanding - while I somehow also taught the material and monitored 35 other students), whereas another guy would come in guns blazing on how the kid was messing up his/her opportunities all by him/herself.  It's two different world views, and I thought the episode did a really good job of illuminating the contrasts found in one profession.  It's a chilling hour of TV, and I do wish they had done a follow-up on the girl.  

[WendyCR72]

I also looked at Skoda/Olivet as maybe Skoda having a jaded streak from all the depravities he likely was exposed to through those he examined while Olivet managed not to let herself be cynical. I don't think it was ever stated, but I always thought maybe Skoda was on the job longer, hence his "no time for bullshit/rainbows" approach.

I liked both of them, actually. But Skoda had the edge for me, personally! Maybe it's because J.K. Simmons seems like a cool guy.

[Calamity Jane]

Skoda was my favorite, too, probably because I even love J.K. Simmons in those insurance commercials.  

[WendyCR72]

39 minutes ago, Calamity Jane said:

Skoda was my favorite, too, probably because I even love J.K. Simmons in those insurance commercials.  

Yes! Farmers.  :-)

[Xeliou66]

Skoda was my favorite as well, J.K. Simmons is an excellent actor. I liked them both but Skoda was more entertaining and a better expert IMO, Olivet at times could flip flop or be downright wrong IMO, such as in Killerz, but I liked her as well overall. I always found it interesting when Olivet and Skoda were in episodes together to see how they would debate each other, I remember they were in the episodes Killerz and Bitch on opposite sides, where there any others? 

[wknt3]

7 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

I also looked at Skoda/Olivet as maybe Skoda having a jaded streak from all the depravities he likely was exposed to through those he examined while Olivet managed not to let herself be cynical. I don't think it was ever stated, but I always thought maybe Skoda was on the job longer, hence his "no time for bullshit/rainbows" approach.

I liked both of them, actually. But Skoda had the edge for me, personally! Maybe it's because J.K. Simmons seems like a cool guy.

I always saw it as Olivet seemed to focus more on the potential of people to change. She seemed to work more with patients from a perspective that differed from forensic psychology. There were more references to private patients, she counseled police officers, she worked with victimized children, etc. Skoda was more focused on diagnosis, probabilities (yes they can change, but more likely they won't) etc. and tended to focus more on the case than the person.

6 hours ago, Calamity Jane said:

Skoda was my favorite, too, probably because I even love J.K. Simmons in those insurance commercials.  

I prefer Skoda too because of J.K. Simmons. I will always prefer him over just about anyone.

5 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Yes! Farmers.  :-)

Bum ba dum bum bum bum bum!

[roseslg]

I think Skoda was also a psychiatrist while Olivet was a Psychologist... I also prefer Skoda

[Maherjunkie]

Quote

At least Ezra had a happy ending.

What happened to him?

[WendyCR72]

10 minutes ago, Maherjunkie said:

What happened to him?

Nothing, really. But we saw he had been adopted by a loving supportive family. (He told adoptive dad he met with bio-dad out of curiosity and called Lowenstein "creepy", too...)

[Calamity Jane]

Once every few months, I order a pizza for delivery, and apparently had the same delivery person a few times in a row, and there was always a Law & Order episode on the TV when she arrived.  She finally commented on it when she came and there was NOT one on.  I had to laugh because I guess I didn't realize I watch it so much now I'm retired.  Why isn't there an all-L&O-all-the-time channel, anyway?  Or three, actually?  But I'd make do with one.  

[WendyCR72]

2 hours ago, Calamity Jane said:

Once every few months, I order a pizza for delivery, and apparently had the same delivery person a few times in a row, and there was always a Law & Order episode on the TV when she arrived.  She finally commented on it when she came and there was NOT one on.  I had to laugh because I guess I didn't realize I watch it so much now I'm retired.  Why isn't there an all-L&O-all-the-time channel, anyway?  Or three, actually?  But I'd make do with one.  

Think of it! 20 seasons of the Mothership, the Exiled movie, CI, SVU, and hey, even the failed franchise contenders. Programming would never be an issue!

[Xeliou66]

I agree, I would love an all L&O channel. Between 20 seasons of the mothership, 18 seasons and counting of SVU, 10 seasons of CI, plus LA and TBJ, they would never run out of programming. Also they could show Homicide : Life on the Street, which crossed over 3 times with L&O and is a great show that is never shown anymore. 

[wknt3]

13 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Think of it! 20 seasons of the Mothership, the Exiled movie, CI, SVU, and hey, even the failed franchise contenders. Programming would never be an issue!

Sounds like a good idea to me. Except for Exiled. Although I guess they need something for the 3am slot along with seasons 8 and 9 of CI and the last couple Amaro years of SVU. Although I would watch live in prime time if it was hosted by Dick Wolf explaining what went wrong and apologizing to the audience and John Fiore.

4 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I agree, I would love an all L&O channel. Between 20 seasons of the mothership, 18 seasons and counting of SVU, 10 seasons of CI, plus LA and TBJ, they would never run out of programming. Also they could show Homicide : Life on the Street, which crossed over 3 times with L&O and is a great show that is never shown anymore. 

And L&O: UK! Also all of Munch's cameo appearances. And for a little variety they could show The Wire and Oz too! Not Law & Order shows, but good TV with just about all the same actors. I think we've figured out what they should have done with Cloo...

[WendyCR72]

26 minutes ago, wknt3 said:

And L&O: UK! Also all of Munch's cameo appearances. And for a little variety they could show The Wire and Oz too! Not Law & Order shows, but good TV with just about all the same actors. I think we've figured out what they should have done with Cloo...

And there's also Conviction 2006, surrounding Alex Cabot (which had Julianne Nicholson - later of CI - and Det. Beauty Queen Milena Govich - of the Mothership later on - in the cast). It wasn't that great, hence one season, but it was in the same universe. And, heck, add another Wolf show from the mid '90s, New York Undercover, to the programming, too.  :-)

[Xeliou66]

Conviction was crap, everyone can agree that it should've never existed and bringing in Alex Cabot was a desperation move for ratings, and when Cabot went back to SVU it basically contradicted Conviction, I don't even consider it canon. Not an L&O show by any means, it was meant to be a soap opera with lawyers and they tied it with L&O to get viewers. 

An L&O channel with the mothership, SVU, CI, UK, TBJ, LA, and Homicide would be great. Also any crossover episodes such as with Munch or the SVU tie ins with Chicago should be shown. 

[sockii]

14 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

An L&O channel with the mothership, SVU, CI, UK, TBJ, LA, and Homicide would be great. Also any crossover episodes such as with Munch or the SVU tie ins with Chicago should be shown. 

That basically would constitute 90% of my television viewing already (between DVDs, Netflix, and skirting between various cable channels), so I'm game :D How about just call it the Tommy Westphall Network?

Edited March 11, 2017 by sockii

[Xeliou66]

More good season 10 episodes on WE tonight, just saw Fools for Love. One of L&O's darkest and most disturbing episodes, about the serial rapist and his girlfriend who wound up killing the girlfriends sister and her friend. 2 of the most twisted, sociopathic killers L&O ever had, but very good episode. The deal that McCoy gave to the girlfriend was extremely lenient and I'm glad the judge agreed and overturned it. Interesting in that Stabler and Benson from SVU made appearances on that one and Cragen was referenced. There was a hilarious line from Schiff to Skoda when they were debated the case in Schiff office, he growled "do you ever give a straight answer" to Skoda after he was providing alternate theories. Schiff's one liners were hilarious. 

Trade This is on now, another good, underrated episode. 

[merylinkid]

23 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

More good season 10 episodes on WE tonight, just saw Fools for Love. One of L&O's darkest and most disturbing episodes, about the serial rapist and his girlfriend who wound up killing the girlfriends sister and her friend. 2 of the most twisted, sociopathic killers L&O ever had, but very good episode. The deal that McCoy gave to the girlfriend was extremely lenient and I'm glad the judge agreed and overturned it. Interesting in that Stabler and Benson from SVU made appearances on that one and Cragen was referenced. There was a hilarious line from Schiff to Skoda when they were debated the case in Schiff office, he growled "do you ever give a straight answer" to Skoda after he was providing alternate theories. Schiff's one liners were hilarious. 

Trade This is on now, another good, underrated episode. 

Fools for Love was a ripped from the headlines ep.   It's based on a real life case up in Canada.   In that case, the girl who's last name was Homulka, got a sweetheart deal from the Canadian government.   Then the tapes surfaced.   It gets better,   Once she was released from prison she was allowed to change her name to avoid the notoriety connected to her.   The reasoning is she did her time she shouldn't have to live with the stigma.   This is NOT something I agree with.   She can go do this again and no one will have warning.  

[Xeliou66]

Yeah I know the case, Paul Bernardo was the real life version of L&O's Peter Williams, a serial rapist who later killed a few people with his girlfriend. He went to jail for the rest of his life but the girlfriend is now out, which isn't right I agree. Karla Homolka should still be behind bars and she shouldn't be allowed to get a new name. She's still living in Quebec last I heard, she has kids now as well. I hope someone exposes her new name like they did when she was living somewhere in the Caribbean. 

[Maherjunkie]

What idiot married her?

[merylinkid]

On 3/11/2017 at 10:55 PM, Maherjunkie said:

What idiot married her?

New name.   If she never said anything, no one would know.   

The one where Serena goes in to the hostage situation because the guy wanted a lawyer is on.   Serena looks shock the disciplinary committee is contemplating disbarmement proceedings.   What the hell did she think would happen?   The guy asked for a lawyer.   Because he wanted someone to represent him, not to just see what a lawyer looks like up close.   Her smarting "he made assumptions" to his REAL attorney didn't help.   

So much wrong.   First of all, Diane Melnik would have gone into the situation in a hot minute.   Second, any attorney knows if you tell someone you are a lawyer, you KNOW they want you to represent them.  Ethics 101, its what the CLIENT thinks not what the attorney thinks about representation.   It's why we send very clear non-representation letters.   Third, she then went and blabbed what she learned.  If she had kept her mouth shut, and just recused herself from anything to do with him, it would have been somewhat okay.   Fourth, no one would represent her before the committee.   Except well there are whole law firms dedicated to representing attorneys who get in trouble.  

Sadly she wasn't disbarred and we got stuck with her until she got fired for being a lesbian.  Oh wait, no she got fired because she sucked at being a lawyer.

[Xeliou66]

Great marathon on on WE TV tonight. Some outstanding episodes on, including one of my all time favorites, Teenage Wasteland. This episode is one of the best L&O ever did, for many reasons : it was L&O at its best, great investigation in the first half, great legal maneuvering in the second, an very good debate and discussion of a tough topic, the death penalty, with no clear answers being given and no bias towards either side, great arguments in court from both McCoy and the Texas defense lawyer, and I love the scene in the DA's office where the various prosecutors discuss the case, I liked seeing a variety of different DA's we had never seen before, it showed that there are a lot more DA's in the office than just the ones we see. It was also one of the few episodes that I found Nora Lewin interesting and entertaining instead of just being dull and adding nothing.

What do the rest of you think of this episode? Did you think that Mitch deserved the death penalty or not? I thought he did, he was a pure sociopath who showed no remorse, and committed a particularly brutal murder of an innocent and good person who was just trying to provide for his family. He would've no doubt killed again had he been given the chance. People like him are why I support executions. 

Edited March 19, 2017 by Xeliou66

[Maherjunkie]

Does anyone else smile when they hear the name Adam Schiff in the news lately?

[Xeliou66]

Watching season 17 on ION today and Detective Beauty Queen is really hard to watch. This year is by far the weakest of L&O, it's really hard to get into any of the episodes because of her. The second half improved with Rubirosa, she was always one of my favorite ADA's and it was her with Branch and McCoy but the first half is just hard to watch. The writing wasn't great either. Fortunately the show was revamped in season 18 and greatly improved. 

[WendyCR72]

WE is showing the McCoy/Carmichael years if the torture gets to be too much.

[Maherjunkie]

Or watch Logan and whoever on demand and feel no pain.

[Xeliou66]

Green-Lupo season 18 episodes are on now, much better. The show improved this season a lot

[WendyCR72]

It's Saturday! And "Wages of Love" is on WE. So have a drinking game for every time the wife says she and hubby were married for 25 years!

[Maherjunkie]

She was annoying.  I wonder if my man was ripping on her or feeling sorry for her when he said "try housewife from Kings county."

[WendyCR72]

38 minutes ago, Maherjunkie said:

She was annoying.  I wonder if my man was ripping on her or feeling sorry for her when he said "try housewife from Kings county."

Based on his tone, I vote for curtain #1.

[Maherjunkie]

But he didn't know she was a douchette yet.

[WendyCR72]

12 minutes ago, Maherjunkie said:

But he didn't know she was a douchette yet.

No, by then they at least suspected her.

[andromeda331]

21 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

It's Saturday! And "Wages of Love" is on WE. So have a drinking game for every time the wife says she and hubby were married for 25 years!

My favorite episode! They were married 25 years you know. Apparently, if your married that long nearly everyone else is sympathetic if you shoot your husband and his girlfriend and as many times as you want! 

[SunnyBeBe]

I was recently watching a L&O marathon and saw LENNY plaything the part of a DEFENSE attorney!  I couldn't believe my eyes. I must have forgotten that he was a guest on the show in that role, and then came back in a later season to play a detective.  

[WendyCR72]

3 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I was recently watching a L&O marathon and saw LENNY plaything the part of a DEFENSE attorney!  I couldn't believe my eyes. I must have forgotten that he was a guest on the show in that role, and then came back in a later season to play a detective.  

Yep! Jerry Orbach played Frank Lehrman, defense attorney, in Season 2's "Wages of Love" (the show's take on Betty Broderick), and Orbach returned in Season 3 as Lennie Briscoe.

Just as S. Epatha Merkerson played the mother of a baby shot to death in the Season 1 episode, "Mushrooms" before returning to the show in S4 as Anita Van Buren.

[GHScorpiosRule]

6 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

Yep! Jerry Orbach played Frank Lehrman, defense attorney, in Season 2's "Wages of Love" (the show's take on Betty Broderick), and Orbach returned in Season 3 as Lennie Briscoe.

Just as S. Epatha Merkerson played the mother of a baby shot to death in the Season 1 episode, "Mushrooms" before returning to the show in S4 as Anita Van Buren.

"We were married for 25 YEEEEEEARRRRRRS!!!!"

[SunnyBeBe]

9 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

"We were married for 25 YEEEEEEARRRRRRS!!!!"

To whom?  

I really do need to catch up on Seasons 1 and 2.  I thought that I had scene most all seasons, but, maybe not. 

Edited April 24, 2017 by SunnyBeBe

[GHScorpiosRule]

16 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

To whom?  

I really do need to catch up on Seasons 1 and 2.  I thought that I had scene most all seasons, but, maybe not. 

That's all Shirley Knight's character kept saying throughout the episode "Wages of Love" where Orbach played the defense attorney. Did you not notice that one line she kept using as a reason why she wouldn't have killed him, then as a justification??

[WendyCR72]

41 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

"We were married for 25 YEEEEEEARRRRRRS!!!!"

<Tries to rip own ears off. Can't. Take. The. Whiny. Voice.>

[Catlyn]

On 3/5/2017 at 11:05 AM, GHScorpiosRule said:

They were in family court.   The family court judge really really wanted to believe she could be helped.   The judge also knew the state institution was not going to actually treat her.   All it would take is some psychiatrist after a few years of drugging her and restraining her at state expense to say "she's cured" and she back on the streets.   With no restrictions.   At least this way, they could impose some conditions on her.   And if Mom didn't leave up to her end of the bargain -- one missed court visit which you KNOW will happen -- and boom Jenny is in institution.   I can see the court wanting to at least try.  

But yeah, Mom was piece of work "I grounded her" when she beat up a little boy.   "I'll watch her like a hawk."  Yeah, because you didn't even know she killed the neighbor's cat.   "She's my best friend" is the worst of all.   She's your kid, not your best friend.   Maybe making her your best friend instead of treating her like a kid you had to parent was the problem.

Skoda "Let;s forget predictors.  She's already killed someone" was the best.   Everyone acting like this kid doesn't have the chance to turn into a killer.   Umm, she killed a little boy for the hell of it.   She is way more likely to kill again than the person who got mad at someone and just lost control.   

As you can see I don't much like this one either.   It does show what is the problem when killers are too young to really appreciate what "dead" means, but we know are a danger to society.

It's funny because I've seen two shows where the take-off from the Mary Bell case has the girl get off by their mothers. In the real one, she ends up in Juvenile and was released as an adult.  One was the Law and Order episode, the other a German show, Tatort. 

I would also love to see a follow-up episode to see how she has grown and see which side was correct.