Morality in Storybrooke / Social Issues: Threads Combined!

[KAOS Agent]

42 minutes ago, Camera One said:

But I can see Emma's reasoning, since there was a bigger "needs of the many" at play, as Nimue and Co. had dastardly plans if the Dark One had lived on (either in Hook or Emma).  I can see why Emma fell upon Zelena, as her actions led to Merlin's death and she helped to have Arthur potentially execute several innocent people, and that's not even taking into account that she murdered Marian in cold blood (and a Munchkin and an Emerald City Guard, though these two were unknown).

...The more "grey" the show tries to be, the more I want to pick up a pitchfork, draw a line in the sand and join the black-and-white peasant army because I am just so sick of these villains ruining everyone's lives.

Emma could have chosen Random Citizen #645 and gotten rid of the Darkness by killing them and no one would have noticed. She chose someone who'd murdered others in the past and isn't an innocent. Morally bad, but not totally off the charts evil either, especially for the Dark One.

Note that after Emma was castigated for her plan to get rid of Zelena, Regina actually did separate Zelena from her child with Robin's full agreement and sent the woman off to terrorize a helpless population in Oz once again. Why was that considered an okay solution to anything? What kind of "heroic" morality is this? The "heroes" don't kill her and instead sent her off to screw over a bunch of innocent people.  Nice.

Edited July 31, 2016 by KAOS Agent

[Rumsy4]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

Speaking of morality, I would also have been okay with the "heroes", if they had just dumped the dying Rumple off on the other side of the town line at the end of Season 4, and the Dark blob could just disappear into the ether in the World Without Magic.  

If there was ever something more justified--that was freaking it. They could assuage their conscience by dumping him in an ER outside Storybrooke. But there was absolutely no justifiable reason to set the Darkness free inside Storybrooke. 

20 minutes ago, KAOS Agent said:

What kind of "heroic" morality is this? The "heroes" don't kill her and instead sent her off to screw over a bunch of innocent people.  Nice.

All they care about is the state of their own souls, and the lives of a specific set of people. Plus the REC.

Edited July 31, 2016 by Rumsy4

[YaddaYadda]

Whatever Emma wanted to do to Zelena, she ended up paying for it for even thinking about it in the first place when she had to skewer Hook instead to end the Dark One.

Emma goes from wanting to kill Zelena, someone she really dislikes, who has done a lot of bad things, including being an instrument in what happened to Hook, to having to kill very person she was trying to save all along. 

Hey Emma! Karma's calling.

Meanwhile Zelena gets rewarded with a reunion with her mother, gets her child given back to her and sole custody because the father dies because he wanted to save that very same child. 

[Mari]

9 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

Note that after Emma was castigated for her plan to get rid of Zelena, Regina actually did separate Zelena from her child with Robin's full agreement and sent the woman off to terrorize a helpless population in Oz once again. Why was that considered an okay solution to anything? What kind of "heroic" morality is this? The "heroes" don't kill her and instead sent her off to screw over a bunch of innocent people.  Nice.

Very true.

Which begs the question, what would be the moral way to deal with someone like Zelena?  Is there a way besides the magic cuff to strip magic?  Because Zelena's got that worked out.  

Maybe a memory/personality overwrite?  Does the ookiness outweigh the benefit? 

11 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Emma drugged Zelena, forcibly separated a mother from her baby, didn't consult anyone, and tied her up in a basement. The rationalization wasn't "needs of the many", but rather that killing her would be the least inconvenient for everyone. It was just handled so underhandedly. If it was about executing a dangerous villain (two birds, one stone), why the heck are people like Regina allowed to roam free? Yeah, I don't really think killing Zelena in that manner was the right thing to do. If someone absolutely needed to die, either someone needed to sacrifice themselves or a criminal needed to be executed with due process.

At the very least, Emma should have talked with her family, Regina, and Robin first. 

Oh, I agree.

My point was that someone should have said a version of "Well, now that Emma's brought it up, we should discuss it.  It's not something I want to do, but it would solve a lot of problems."   There should've been some disagreement and conflict over this, instead of simply their disappointment in and fear of Emma.

[andromeda331]

18 hours ago, Mari said:

Very true.

Which begs the question, what would be the moral way to deal with someone like Zelena?  Is there a way besides the magic cuff to strip magic?  Because Zelena's got that worked out.  

Maybe a memory/personality overwrite?  Does the ookiness outweigh the benefit? 

Oh, I agree.

My point was that someone should have said a version of "Well, now that Emma's brought it up, we should discuss it.  It's not something I want to do, but it would solve a lot of problems."   There should've been some disagreement and conflict over this, instead of simply their disappointment in and fear of Emma.

I agree. It would make more sense if they stopped to discuss it, if a couple people did want to stop and consider it. Wondering if it would really work and they could be rid of the Dark One for good? Wondering what life would be like without it? Weighing the murder of one person over the Dark One who is a much bigger problem. Wondering if it was right to murder Zelena in cold blood even though it would mean getting rid of the Dark One. Or if not doing it how would they feel when once again the Dark One is a problem?  It could still end with them deciding not to do it or maybe even wondering if there was another way to get rid of it. But there should have been some kind of conflict or discussion over it.

Edited August 1, 2016 by andromeda331

[andromeda331]

10 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

Meanwhile Zelena gets rewarded with a reunion with her mother, gets her child given back to her and sole custody because the father dies because he wanted to save that very same child. 

Wonder do any of the people look at Rumple, Regina or Zelena and wonder why they bother being a good person? All three committed all kinds of horrible acts and get to become heroes. Zelena got her daughter, reunited with her mother and is now best friends with her sister. Regina went to Hades and got a nice reunion with her parents and not ever had to run into someone she murdered. Her targets in her revenge are now her friends and defend her to everyone, even to her other victims.  She lives in a nice house, her son has forgotten the horrible things that happened, and they agree with everything she says and does. If she thinks she wants a happy ending why they think she deserves it too. Rumple has gotten away with all of his crimes, yes Belle leaves but she always comes back. The other heroes always forgive him. Even Cora who committed all kinds of crimes, was forgiven and got to go to Heaven! Do other people in Storybrook hear this and wonder why they bother? Or maybe if they stay good they'll end up in the place opposite of where Cora, Regina and Rumple will end up?  Do villains hear this and think "Great I don't have to be a good person! I can murder all I want and still end up in Heaven!"

Edited July 31, 2016 by andromeda331

[KingOfHearts]

I was having some shower thoughts on why Bizarro World didn't work. The idea that heroes always win and villains always lose doesn't ring true within the show because the villains do tend to have victories just as the heroes do. The ball bounces from court to court without any real final standing. For example, Snowing may have gotten married, but Regina ended up cursing them for 28 years. The heroes were able to break it, but only because Rumple engineered it so they could. Later in the show, when villains tend to die at the end of each arc, it's usually not a clean victory for the heroes. With Pan, the curse was torn and they got ripped away from Storybrooke. With Zelena, she simply returned as Zarian. So the whole "heroes always win" concept is flawed in this universe.

An Enchanted Forest where villains always win would not be as different as some might think. It really just depends on where you are in the timeline. At one point, King George, Regina and Rumple were all in power, sitting on top of the world. The "heroes" were oppressed as refugees, servants, and bandits. They didn't obtain any sort of upper hand until after a (presumably) bloody war and in the end they still returned to captives of the darkness. Storybrooke under the curse was really the scenario Bizarro World was trying to portray. Regina always won and the heroes couldn't do anything about it.

Edited August 14, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[andromeda331]

17 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

I was having some shower thoughts on why Bizarro World didn't work. The idea that heroes always win and villains always lose doesn't ring true within the show because the villains do tend to have victories just as the heroes do. The ball bounces from court to court without any real final standing. For example, Snowing may have gotten married, but Regina ended up cursing them for 28 years. The heroes were able to break it, but only because Rumple engineered it so they could. Later in the show, when villains tend to die at the end of each arc, it's usually not a clean victory for the heroes. With Pan, the curse was torn and they got ripped away from Storybrooke. With Zelena, she simply returned as Zarian. So the whole "heroes always win" concept is flawed in this universe.

An Enchanted Forest where villains always win would not be as different as some might think. It really just depends on where you are in the timeline. At one point, King George, Regina and Rumple were all in power, sitting on top of the world. The "heroes" were oppressed as refugees, servants, and bandits. They didn't obtain any sort of upper hand until after a (presumably) bloody war and in the end they still returned to captives of the darkness. Storybrooke under the curse was really the scenario Bizarro World was trying to portray. Regina always won and the heroes couldn't do anything about it.

This is what drives me crazy when ever Regina woes about her happy ending or Rumple talked about villains not getting a happy ending.  She had 28 years!  For 28 years she won. Everyone did exactly what she wanted them to do. That's not even counting the years she reigned as the Evil Queen.  Rumple was the most powerful person for centuries, he spent centuries manipulating everyone. None of it was enough for either one. After the Curse ended, Regina hardly suffered. There was one mob that was stopped by Emma and the Charmings.   How long as Snow exactly won? From defeating Regina to the Curse maybe a year or two at most? After the Curse? She fell through a portal separated from her husband again, trying to figure out how to have a relationship with her grown daughter, her grandson's kidnapped, the many times Regina tried to kill her family again with Cora, separated from her daughter for another year, and someone once again wanted to take her baby. Yeah, Snow's really won hasn't she?

[Curio]

It simply comes down to the writers preferring to put themselves in the shoes of the villains instead of the heroes. It's easier for them to have empathy for the villains when those are the characters they think about the most. If the writers were forced to only think about the show through Snow or Charming's viewpoint, we'd have a very different story.

[Shanna Marie]

Bringing over some stuff from the relationships thread ...

15 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

Is there some idea that Cora's death is karma for Regina? Why is this even a thing? Cora was a horrible person who destroyed countless lives and her death was a direct result of her own actions. If my mom killed a bunch of people and was killed while concocting a new plot to kill a bunch more, I wouldn't consider any of that to be a punishment for me.

 

8 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

Karma catching up to Regina would be Robin's death. But even then, he's the one who got it, not Regina, because he stood between her and Percival/Hades.

It's hard to imagine either of those things counting as karma for Regina, though if Robin had been killed by Percival or if his ultimate death had been in any way linked to the Percival attack it would have kind of counted, since it was a consequence of Regina's prior evil. However, this did get me thinking about the show's narrative, as repeatedly mentioned by the writers, that Regina has the worst luck and has the most bad things happen to her. Really, most of the bad things that have happened to Regina have been bad things happening to other people that affect her -- Daniel being killed, Cora being killed, Robin being killed. Or else they're consequences of her own evil -- the people in her kingdom sided with Snow because she slaughtered villages, her father died because she murdered him to cast the curse, Owen didn't want to stay with her because she was trying to force him to stay, Graham was disgusted with his relationship with her because she was taking away his consent, her former victims didn't want to invite her to dinner because she'd spent decades tormenting them, Gregowen tortured her because she murdered his father, Henry was kidnapped because her treatment of Owen made him easily manipulated by Pan, etc. I guess all the stuff that happened to her as a consequence of her own evil counts as karma, but I'm not entirely sure that direct consequences balance the karmic scale -- if you murder your father, you don't really get karma credit for feeling sad that you don't have your father in your life; it's not really "karma" if people you abuse don't like you.

Meanwhile, a lot of the bad stuff that other characters have suffered is bad stuff that actually happened to them, not bad stuff that happened to other people that made them feel sad. Emma grew up as an orphan in foster care. Snow was thrown out of her own home and had to live on the run. Hook's hand was cut off. Emma had to go to jail and give birth as a prisoner. Hook was sold into slavery as a child. Zelena was abandoned on the side of the road and grew up with an abusive adoptive father. Emma became the Dark One when she saved the town after Rumple's darkness took over. Hook was mortally wounded and made into a Dark One against his will. Hook had to die to stop the Dark Ones. I'll even give credit to Emma here for losing Hook because she had to kill him, so it's not just about her being sad for losing him, but her having to kill him, which was pretty traumatic.

So, really, Regina doesn't have bad luck. The people Regina loves have bad luck, so she loses them.

[Mathius]

I've noticed that too.  Much of Regina's "bad luck" and hardships that the writers insist she's had more of than anyone else is pretty much related to how she feels and not to what actually happens to her, of which remarkably little has.  It's this weird thing where she has one of the better lives out of all the cast, yet she feels the most miserable constantly, even though other people (like her victims) are able to find happiness despite worse things happening to them (things Regina sometimes caused!)  And rather than use this to point out how unsympathetic Regina is, the show expects you to sympathize with her, think that she has it the worst, and that she has to work harder than anyone else to be happy.  It makes absolutely no sense.

Even when the show does point out that she's the only one preventing her own happiness like they did toward the end of 4B, it's undermined by what came before (an arc where just about every character agreed with her that she has it rough and needed to have a happy ending written for her rather than having common sense and telling her this simple fact) or what comes afterward (apparently, Regina isn't standing in the way of her own happy ending - her Evil Queen "karma" is and everyone else encourages her to split her dark side from herself!)  This is what has caused Regina Fatigue.

Edited October 4, 2016 by Mathius

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

Even when the show does point out that she's the only one preventing her own happiness like they did toward the end of 4B, it's undermined by what came before (an arc where just about every character agreed with her that she has it rough and needed to have a happy ending written for her rather than having common sense and telling her this simple fact) or what comes afterward (apparently, Regina isn't standing in the way of her own happy ending - her Evil Queen "karma" is and everyone else encourages her to split her dark side from herself!)  This is what has caused Regina Fatigue.

That moment in 4x20 where Regina realized she was the only one standing in the way of her happiness should have been a major turning point for her. Zelena remarked that she was only happy because she had Robin, to which she replied, "He's not my happy ending. He just happens to be in it." That's a different spin from her reactions in 5B/S6. Whenever she gets her way she thinks she's redeemed without needing circumstances to be happy. When she loses what she wanted, it becomes about circumstances again.

[Mari]

Even the start of the story--Henry searching out Emma--was because Regina'd treated the citizens and him so badly he could tell she was evil.

He wasn't looking for a mom;  he was looking for a rescuer.

[YaddaYadda]

2 minutes ago, Mari said:

Even the start of the story--Henry searching out Emma--was because Regina'd treated the citizens and him so badly he could tell she was evil.

He wasn't looking for a mom;  he was looking for a rescuer.

Basically. He already had a mom, and he wished he hadn't gone to get Emma in 3x11, so yup.

[Curio]

6 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

Really, most of the bad things that have happened to Regina have been bad things happening to other people that affect her [...] So, really, Regina doesn't have bad luck. The people Regina loves have bad luck, so she loses them.

 

This is what I was going to mention as well. It's hard to count other people's suffering as major karmic punishments for Regina because the people who are suffering most in those situations are the people who are actually dead/raped. Robin being raped by Zelena and being killed by Hades (wow, the writers really did not like his character) is first and foremost bad for him, but the show warped both of those events into Regina's suffering and how the world treats her so unfairly. A better example of a proper karmic punishment for Regina was not being invited to the celebration dinner, but even then, the writers warped that situation into making the heroes look bad for doing nothing wrong.

[Camera One]

One actual karmic payback was Regina having to let Henry go in the 3A finale and have him not remember her.  But they misfired there too, by having Henry back in Storybrooke by the end of the 3B premiere, and having him remember by the end of the arc.  Not to mention how they stressed Regina missing Henry while completely ignoring how Snowing would also be struggling with what happened to Emma (a mistake they would later repeat in 5A... a mistake they don't even see as a mistake, because now in 6A, it's still all about Regina).

[KingOfHearts]

This show only does karma as far as, "All magic comes with a price!" goes. I've never really seen any characters make connections about consequences beyond that. I've never seen one event seemingly unrelated to another and a character saying anything like, "That's karma for you!" Their moral structure is so twisted that you can't really make up a balanced "bad = bad things, good = good things" system. Heroes are punished for doing good and villains are blessed for just saying they want to change. The oddity is that it's all painted in black and white, while being very inconsistent.

How can there be karmic consequences when there aren't even natural consequences?

Edited October 5, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

And the "All magic comes with a price" compounds the price ten-fold for heroes, to the point that one little piece of magic can ruin their entire life.  While villains can use magic whenever they want and maybe in some distant date, they get defeated.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

I never really understood what Robin's reasons were. With him, it seemed to be about wanting to be a hero. 

Robin didn't see a dying man and show compassion. He asked, "Why should I help you?" and Rumple reminded him about his obsession with honor. So, he saved him because he didn't want to taint his precious code. He was almost as bad as Snow when she stopped Regina's execution. In exchange for saving his life, he lost Hook's, his own, and whoever Rumple kills from now on. That's all on him. He knew full well how much of a threat Rumple was and he totally disregarded others to preserve his own reputation. What about Roland? What about "Marian"? What about Regina?  

Heroes don't kill. They just let their loved ones die.

Edited October 7, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[andromeda331]

10 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Robin didn't see a dying man and show compassion. He asked, "Why should I help you?" and Rumple reminded him about his obsession with honor. So, he saved him because he didn't want to taint his precious code. He was almost as bad as Snow when she stopped Regina's execution. In exchange for saving his life, he lost Hook's, his own, and whoever Rumple kills from now on. That's all on him. He knew full well how much of a threat Rumple was and he totally disregarded others to preserve his own reputation. What about Roland? What about "Marian"? What about Regina?  

Heroes don't kill. They just let their loved ones die.

Don't forget killing villains is taking the easy way out. If your a true Hero, you let the villains live and roam free killing anyone they feel like it. After all if they murder someone or an entire village its not their fault. Its the person or the entire village or the couple that chose to get married on a day when the Evil Queen was sad. Or the mute maid for walking in at the wrong time. Over hear a prince's fiancée is pregnant with someone else's baby and he doesn't know, you never tell him. Looking for your son? Its not your fault you went with a plan that meant you manipulated everyone for centuries instead of using any of the hundreds of easier ways. Or cursed everyone its their fault after all not yours. But do feel free to be out rage when anyone else does what you've done say your sister rapes your boyfriend. Remember, when you do it, its not a crime your just misunderstood or sassy. Don't worry about any of your victims, they'll love you no matter what you do to them even take out your other victims to save you. But remember villains don't get happy endings.

[Shanna Marie]

Robin's "code" was pretty much just a plot device they dragged out to motivate him to do whatever they needed him to do for the story. They needed to get Neal to Neverland, so Robin's code required him to use his small child as Shadow bait because he owed Rumple a favor after Rumple didn't flay him to death and helped save Marian. They needed some Regina angst, so his code required him to stay with his wife even though he really preferred being with Regina. But then they needed him to get together with Regina, so his code then called for following his heart and doing whatever it took to be with the person he loved. They needed to keep Rumple alive, so his code called for putting everything on the line to save Rumple's life. They wanted him to go to the Underworld, so his code required him to risk everything for a man he'd had maybe two conversations with so he could feel like a hero.

The saving Rumple one is really baffling. I can see being anti-death penalty enough to think that Snow did the right thing in sparing Regina from execution, even if that may have been the ideal death-penalty case, given that she was an unrepentant mass murderer who was too powerful to be kept locked up, so that life in prison wasn't an option (too bad they didn't have that anti-magic cuff then), and it wasn't just a case of vengeance because she was tried and convicted. And I guess they could say that Snow was right to spare her, since she did eventually turn herself around. It just keeps looking worse when they add more and more crimes committed after that point because I guess all those random villagers don't matter as long as Regina got a chance to be a hero eventually. Robin saving Rumple, however, makes no moral sense. Robin wasn't killing him. Rumple was dying of the consequences of his own evil. There was absolutely no reason other than his stupid "code" for him to have not said, "Sorry, sucks to be you," and gone about his life. It would have been an easy enough fix to have had Rumple have something to hold over him, like if he died, a letter would be sent to Immigration, letting them know about Robin and Marian being undocumented, or he had video evidence of Robin stealing something that would be found when the police got his effects when he died, or something that would have made it riskier not to help. Or, heck, just have Zelena and not Robin get the potion to save him (though I guess that would have killed the Robin flashback for the episode). Going to extraordinary means to stop someone evil from dying of natural causes related to his evil so that he would live to commit even more evil is actually rather evil.

[Camera One]

So what does everyone think?  Shouldn't Cinderella invite the Evil Stepmother over for Thanksgiving in November to carve the bird?   After all, they're family.

Edited October 11, 2016 by Camera One

[InsertWordHere]

9 minutes ago, Camera One said:

So what does everyone think?  Should Cinderella invite the Evil Stepmother over for Thanksgiving in November to carve the bird?   After all, they're family.

Depends. Can Alexandra and her step-grandmother become best friends and go on roadtrips together?

[Mari]

Well, not until Ella's repeatedly grovelled for telling a secret, and apologies have been made to the stepmother for ruining her life and happiness.  Those things must be done before Alexandra will be worthy of a road trip with her step grandmother.

Edited October 12, 2016 by Mari

[Camera One]

At the very least Cinderella should thank the Evil Stepmother for giving her hope and making her strong.

[Curio]

I was discussing in another thread the importance of karmic justice and the role it plays in apologies. If one doesn't suffer proper karmic justice for their crimes, can you truly walk away feeling satisfied if you were the person wronged? In real life we can't always expect bad people to be properly punished, but in fiction, the author has full control over giving karmic punishments, and in fact, it's their obligation to deliver those punishments because that's what creates a balanced and rewarding story. (Especially if you're claiming to write a show about "hope.") Characters constantly do bad things on this show, but they don't often have to suffer any karmic punishment, and then they become best friends with the people they wronged.

This is the example I posed in another thread: Someone steals your car, crashes it into your fence, and the police finds them. Would you buy that they were truly sorry if the police didn't handcuff or arrest them, and instead the person just said a quick "sorry" and drove away in their Mercedes to live in their fancy mansion without any punishment or paying any fees? Or would you actually buy an apology if that person was handcuffed, arrested, spent a few days in jail, had to sell their Mercedes to pay off the fines, and finally went to you to apologize and offer to fix your fence for free after karma came back to bite them?

One could argue that it's easier to feel sorry when everything is taken from you, or that you only feel sorry you got caught, but do you actually learn your lesson if you don't get punished? It's like never putting a child in time out. Sure, they might feel sorry they stole the cookie, but will they actually learn their actions were bad if they never get punishment for it? They'll probably just continue to steal the cookie in the future. And what about the party that was wronged? In the show, Regina is a prime example of the person who rarely has to face karmic justice for her crimes and continues to drive away in her Mercedes at the end of the day. What about the person who has the broken fence now? (See: Percival, Count of Monte Cristo...if they were still alive.) How do they feel? Will the person with the broken fence go to bed happy at night knowing the person who stole their car and broke their fence didn't spend a single day in jail, didn't pay any fines, and is in fact living a better life than them? Or will they go to bed happy knowing the criminal had to pay a hefty fine and they received some recompense for the criminal's wrongdoing?

That's my ultimate issue with this show and Regina in particular: I empathize too much with the person who owns the fence and not the person who owns the fancy Mercedes and gets away with it. I don't honestly think Regina can ever empathize with her victims and, according to A&E "have the worst luck out of anyone on the show," until she has proper karmic punishment for her crimes, which would include some kind of permanent loss that only affects her (i.e. losing her mansion, her wealth, her Mercedes, her job, her magic, etc.). The last time Regina had any semblance of karmic justice was way back in Season 2A, but that was years ago. Ever since, the writers keep making her flashbacks more murderous and more cruel, yet they don't address any of it in the present. In comparison, when Hook faces an Ariel, Ursula, or Liam 2.0 situation, the story is usually framed in a way where Hook tries to atone in the present for the person he wronged in the flashback because he feels bad about it, and then he goes and resolves the issue on his own to make up for what he did. The result? Ariel, Ursula, and Liam 2.0 all have happy endings now. When Regina faces an Owen, Percival, or Count of Monte Cristo situation, the story is framed in a way where the victim is made to look worse than Regina and Regina doesn't try to help make their lives better in the present. The result? They're all dead. I would almost say the writers are purposely showing two drastically different approaches here with Hook and Regina, and maybe it's a subtle message about Regina being an ineffective hero, but I'm not sure I can give the writers that much credit.

Other people's pain is the usual go-to the writers take to show Regina is suffering, but that's not really karmic because it relies on other people suffering more than Regina. Daniel's death, Robin's rape, and Robin's death all had worse outcomes for the men, not Regina. If Regina lost her magic, someone democratically beat her in a new Mayor election, or she lost her mansion, it primarily affects Regina personally and doesn't negatively affect anyone else more than Regina. If Regina suffered some of those kinds of things, I'd be more inclined to believe her when she says she's sorry for her past actions, or if she actually had to face one of her many innocent victims in the Underworld. But for some reason, the writers are constantly afraid to give Regina proper karma, so we go years and years without Graham ever being dealt with and the morality is twisted to the point where Emma blames her parents more for the original Dark Curse than the person who actually casted the Dark Curse.

[tennisgurl]

On 11/5/2016 at 6:10 AM, Curio said:

Daniel's death, Robin's rape, and Robin's death all had worse outcomes for the men, not Regina.

Its actually kind of darkly funny how well it lines up with the Women in Refrigerator trope that people always talk about. Every guy in Regina's life (Daniel, her Dad, Robin, even Graham) suffers and dies, and it has nothing to do with them. Its all about Regina and how their pain  affects her. 

I`m sorry, but this whole "Evil Queen and Regina are totally different people" thing is still driving me up the wall. On the one hand, I am glad it gives the writers an excuse to write Evil Queen Regina (which they clearly love doing) without just adding more stupid flashbacks to EF Regina murdering more innocent people, which always stops their redemption Regina arc. On the other hand, its trying to absolve Regina of all the evil things shes done, but that just does not work at all. She did it, she did all of that shit we saw her do! Its just lazy that all of the sudden, it was her "evil half" that was doing everything. Hell, that whole thing falls apart after the Jekyll/Hyde pretty much through all that out the window. Jekyll had a bad side, and Hyde had a good side. What does that mean for Regina?

Edited November 7, 2016 by tennisgurl

[KingOfHearts]

I'm pretty done waiting for justice for Regina's crimes (though it's still very much needed), as that ship has sailed so many times. There's been too numerous opportunities for there to be self-awareness or karmic payback. But, the problem I have is that the show keeps rubbing it in our faces that she lacks empathy and hasn't learned any lessons. She's been regressive. It would be one thing if the writers simply botched her redemption and just wrote her as a hero from then on. I could accept that. (I know many wouldn't.) Regina is tolerable when she's not smiling with pointy objects in hand or whining about how it sucks to be nice. But instead of parenting Henry, being mayor, or bonding with Zelena, she's entirely absorbed in her own problems. She's just moping. A key part of redemption is remorse for hurting others. It's too rare for her for it to be believably inside her.

[Mari]

We've discussed several times OUaT's attitude towards female sexual predators.  I thought people might be interested in this article.  The Atlantic:  The Understudied Female Sexual Predator.  The show is definitely not alone.

[Camera One]

19 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

The Charmings are the spawns of darkness. First Snowing, then Emma.

Well, you know how Hades said he wasn't the Devil.  

Devil = David, Satan = Snow, DS = Dark Swan....

Meanwhile, Regina and Rumple = R&R = rest and relaxation = all that is good and light.

[tennisgurl]

So, according to the this last episode, its basically implying that Emma is better off thanks to Regina and her dark curse because it "challenged" her. Do...the writers not realize how fucked up that is? Its not a bad message that hard times can make a strong person if you keep going, but you arent supposed to forgive the oerson who created your hard times completely because they made your life better! Thats like if Batman spent his time searching for the guy who killed his parents so he could thank him for inspiring him to become Batman! Its just bizarre, and kind of horrible if you start applying it to the real world. So, kids, your parents abused you, which inspired you to help abused kids? Thank your awful parents for treating you like garage! Thats not fucked up up or anything. 

It reminds me of the end of the first Conan movie, where Conan finally meets the bad guy who killed his family, and enslaved him. The bad guy gave a big speak about how without him, Conan would be nothing, and Conan owes all his strength to him, because he ruined his life. Conan than cuts his head off. It was awesome. 

[Curio]

It's really weird that Emma has witnessed Regina "murder" her mother twice now in two different realms, yet her response is, "Well, that was dark. Regina, I'm so sorry I ruined your happy ending! Regina, thank you for screwing up my childhood because it made me a more interesting person!"

When Regina thought Cora had died in the Enchanted Forest, she went and gave a speech over her "dead" body and talked about how, "Without you, I never would’ve become the person I am now." We weren't supposed to see what Cora did to Regina as a good thing, we were supposed to see how Cora's actions turned Regina from a naive and kind teenager into a cold and ruthless queen. So why is it okay for Emma to thank Regina for practically the same thing? The REC strikes again.

[KingOfHearts]

Did Emma thank Regina for casting her curse? When did that happen?

[Mathius]

She didn't outright thank her, it was just the subtext of the whole thing.

And regardless of whether that Snow and Charming are "real" or not, there is a huge example of the REC at play when Regina is allowed to murder them, have it treated as the right thing to do, and get thanked and rewarded for it, while David is treated as being wrong and "dark" for wanting to kill the Evil Queen, for having even wanted her executed way back when! The hypocrisy is so astounding that it breaks my brain to think about it.

Edited December 5, 2016 by Mathius

[Shanna Marie]

Just now, Mathius said:

And regardless of whether that Snow and Charming are "real" or not, there is a huge example of the REC at play when Regina is allowed to murder them, have it treated as the right thing to do, and get thanked and rewarded for it, while David is treated as being wrong and "dark" for wanting to kill the Evil Queen, for having even wanted her executed way back when!  

And meanwhile, Princess Emma is depicted as weak and useless for trying diplomacy and not wanting to fight. So, basically, everything the good guys do is wrong. It's wrong for them to fight the bad guys. It's wrong to kill people, even when they're murdering, even when they've been tried and convicted, even when they're an imminent threat to innocents. But they're wimpy if they don't fight. It was bad that Princess Emma wasn't willing to fight Regina, even when she murdered her parents, but it was bad for Henry to kill the person who'd just killed his grandparents.

[Mathius]

1 minute ago, Shanna Marie said:

And meanwhile, Princess Emma is depicted as weak and useless for trying diplomacy and not wanting to fight. So, basically, everything the good guys do is wrong. It's wrong for them to fight the bad guys. It's wrong to kill people, even when they're murdering, even when they've been tried and convicted, even when they're an imminent threat to innocents. But they're wimpy if they don't fight. It was bad that Princess Emma wasn't willing to fight Regina, even when she murdered her parents, but it was bad for Henry to kill the person who'd just killed his grandparents.

And my brain just got even more broken.  Thanks, show, thanks a lot.

[Rumsy4]

7 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

It was bad that Princess Emma wasn't willing to fight Regina, even when she murdered her parents, but it was bad for Henry to kill the person who'd just killed his grandparents.

 

5 minutes ago, Mathius said:

And my brain just got even more broken.  Thanks, show, thanks a lot.

Yup.

[KingOfHearts]

I didn't have any problem with Regina killing the fake parents to get Emma back to her real parents. I think she should have apologized later or shown hesitation, but I don't score it anywhere close to actual murder. My big beef was that Henry couldn't kill. That's REC. There was no problem with killing Percival for trying to kill Regina, but killing Regina for (in Henry's eyes) killing his grandparents and probably trying to kill his mother was wrong. The show doesn't understand that there's a difference between murdering out of anger or revenge and killing to defend someone. How did Snowing going to war without killing anyone? It's just ridiculous.

Snow, Regina and Emma will forever be shamed for defending their loved ones. Meanwhile, David can shove his sword into anyone's chest and it's okay. (Unless it's James, because he's part of the Henry Family Tree.)

[YaddaYadda]

31 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

And meanwhile, Princess Emma is depicted as weak and useless for trying diplomacy and not wanting to fight. So, basically, everything the good guys do is wrong. It's wrong for them to fight the bad guys. It's wrong to kill people, even when they're murdering, even when they've been tried and convicted, even when they're an imminent threat to innocents. But they're wimpy if they don't fight. It was bad that Princess Emma wasn't willing to fight Regina, even when she murdered her parents, but it was bad for Henry to kill the person who'd just killed his grandparents.

I guess I have no idea why he was being knighted if they didn't want him to kill anyone. I'm pretty sure it's part of the job description because knights are supposed to defend the kingdom.

I think this was all about the dialogue they wrote with Henry and Violet's father in 5x05 about how writers are useless, can't defend anyone, and brought that moment full circle with see? Henry is about to become a knight, take that Sir Morgan!

[Mathius]

23 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

I didn't have any problem with Regina killing the fake parents to get Emma back to her real parents. I think she should have apologized later or shown hesitation, but I don't score it anywhere close to actual murder.

That's only if you believe, like Jane does, that the people there really are fake...but AU-Robin going to Storybrooke makes that questionable, as does Adam's recent statements about the nature of the wish realm.  If that Snow and Charming were real, valid people, even if they weren't Emma's real parents, killing them was wrong.  Also, why could Regina not hurt Henry afterward, if he was also "fake"?  And again, there's the whole Robin issue.

Edited December 5, 2016 by Mathius

[Rumsy4]

11 minutes ago, Mathius said:

That's only if you believe, like Jane does, that the people there really are fake...but AU-Robin going to Storybrooke makes that questionable, as does Adam's recent statements about the nature of the wish realm

Maybe he only meant the realm was a real one, but the people were fake? I know--that doesn't make any sense.

[Camera One]

It was okay to kill Old Snow and Old Charming since the Writers probably thought it was funny to throw in the "That was dark" line.

Now, would it have been okay for Regina to kill Fake Henry?  Or would that have been heartless.  I mean, it had to be a little hard to "kill" her fake "friends", no?  

Edited December 6, 2016 by Camera One

[Mathius]

7 minutes ago, Camera One said:

It was okay to kill Old Snow and Old Charming since the Writers probably thought it was funny to throw in the "That was dark" line.

They have no grasp of human emotions.  Even IF it was "fake", Emma would not brush off witnessing her parents getting murdered.  Nobody would.

[KingOfHearts]

33 minutes ago, Mathius said:

They have no grasp of human emotions.  Even IF it was "fake", Emma would not brush off witnessing her parents getting murdered.  Nobody would.

I'd probably feel bad about it if the show used human emotions. Emma didn't seem to care, so why should I?

[Camera One]

That's the double standard.  Regina had no problem killing Fake Snowing but wouldn't defend herself against Fake Henry.  Because killing him would have been crossing an imaginary line?

[KAOS Agent]

She doesn't have any problem abandoning Wish!Henry, who is now grandparent-less, father-less and will be mother-less as well. It makes no sense for Regina to claim Snowing are fake, so no big killing them, but Henry can't be touched and Robin is also totally not fake or something. There was zero thought given to any of it.

[Mathius]

It was done purely for A&E's wish fulfillment of seeing The Evil Queen finally "win" and get to kill Snow and Charming.

[KingOfHearts]

1 minute ago, Mathius said:

It was done purely for A&E's wish fulfillment of seeing The Evil Queen finally "win" and get to kill Snow and Charming.

I liked when EQ pointed out Regina got everything she wanted, and yet still wasn't happy. Another reminder that Regina's unhappiness is her own dang fault.

Edited December 6, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[jhlipton]

I don't think Regina murdered Snowing.  She pulled out their hearts with a "what is it going to take?" air of exasperation. then as she was talking to Emma, her hands closed and it looked like she was thinking "Oops!".  I'd say manslaughter but not murder.

[Rumsy4]

Just now, jhlipton said:

I don't think Regina murdered Snowing.  She pulled out their hearts with a "what is it going to take?" air of exasperation. then as she was talking to Emma, her hands closed and it looked like she was thinking "Oops!".  I'd say manslaughter but not murder.

I'd say if you hold someone's heart in your hand, and squeeze, "accidents" happen.