The Writers of OUAT: Because, Um, Magic, That's Why

[KingOfHearts]

The writers have never handled death very well. Graham died to "raise the stakes" and conclude his character arc. Regina being the murderer only mattered for one episode, and after that it was as if his death never happened. I'm not super bitter that Regina hasn't been punished or anything, but Graham's death was created for very superficial reasons. It was to grab the audience's attention while fulfilling short-term goals the writers had for the characters at the time. They needed Emma to become sheriff against Regina's wishes. I wouldn't touch 1x08, "Desperate Souls", because it dealt with the aftermath perfectly. I wouldn't even fault the rest of S1 that much. It's after the curse where everyone should have known Graham was the huntsman who saved Snow's life and that Regina murdered him where things stopped making sense. (He also saved Charming's life in 1x22, now that I think about it.)

The next major death was Cora. While she was merely a Big Bad, she was still a power player in the main characters' lives. She was much more than just a villain. She was a catalyst for the show itself, spurring the Regina/Snow feud. Snow killing her was poetic justice, so her death already held more meaning than Graham's. It really pushed along Snow's character development. Not in the right direction, but still progress. I actually thought Snow's guilt was believable, but my main issue was A) the dark spot officiating her as a sinner, and B) all her loved ones agreeing she shouldn't have done it. It's part of one the show's most prominent writing issues - characters are either validated or condemned. There is no room for interpretation. It's all very binary. You can't discuss whether you think Snow killing Cora was wrong or not because the show outright says it was wrong.

Neal and Robin's deaths were both very similar. The writers had no desire to continue their characters, so they got rid of them in the middle of the action. They both died because of someone's dumbness. Neal killing himself to resurrect Rumple, Regina trusting Hades via Zelena. While Neal's death made more sense, they were both very abrupt. Posthumously, there was way too much long-standing damage control to keep their "spirits" alive. Neal got whitewashed Regina-style, and Robin got replaced with Robo-Robin. Even the circumstances of the deaths were altered. Neal was supposedly murdered by Zelena, and Robin's soul was supposedly not obliterated. (Because feather.) 

I think the common denominator is twisting deaths to suit the needs of the plot. As far as the show is concerned, Graham died of natural causes, Cora was unjustly murdered by Snow, Neal died a hero at the hands of Zelena, and Robin went to a better place despite Hades lying about it for no reason. Some of the more minor deaths follow the same pattern. The writers think Cruella was murdered in cold blood by a tainted hero, and Auntie Em, Milah, Gaston, and James are all fiiiine.

Edited May 26, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Mitch]

11 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

The writers have never handled death very well.

Very true..and the whole point of having a character die is that there will be fall out, and wow writers get this...interesting scenes between the characters. They should have used Grahams death as the reason to put Regina on trial after the curse broke ...(as in our world you can't very well put the EQ on trial for casting curses)....which would have had tons of drama as everyone has a stake in the outcome. Henry is torn...Emma wants to give Regina a second chance but can't now..most of the town want to see her hanged, Charming's dad is her lawyer...etc. and it was an easy way out...there is no way they could prove that Regina did it because...magic. Grahams death should have always been a wedge between Regina and Emma...and they still could have developed a relationship but it would have been harder work on both the writers and the characters part and much more interesting. The stable boy whatshisface was raised from the dead by Whale for..what..he and Regina had a short scene and she mercy killed him. That should have been the turning point for Regina when he tells her she has become just like her mother and she caused all this pain on hundreds of people because of him...and a turning point for the good guys to feel some empathy for Regina as Charming watches her kill him and he starts to see her as a person and not just the EQ.

Death is a valuable plot tool, and the most frustrating thing about this show is that it continually worked overtime to avoid anything that would make the story richer and fuller..it almost disdained it to go for the most boring and shallow...(Oh the Curse broke, lets not explore how everyone recovers from their cursed identities and for screwing their worst enemy for 28 years..lets go on an ADVENTURE!)

[Katherine]

I suspect Robin's death had a lot to do with fans' criticism that Regina and Emma were no longer strong female characters because of their love interests. I think the writers took this criticism to heart and decided to kill Robin and cut down on Captain Swan screentime. Normally I love it when shows focus more on familial relationships and friendships, but I thought it was handled really poorly here, particularly because limiting the romance didn't even serve to enhance the other relationships. Regina and Emma's friendship got a little more focus (unfortunately, IMO) but it wasn't well-written. And there was no extra time devoted to the familial relationships. So for me, cutting down on the love stories served absolutely no purpose.

One of my biggest complaints about the last few seasons is that they set up big moments for Captain Swan and then chickened out when it came to paying them off. And as for Robin, I had two objections: 1) how weak the set-up was. If they knew they were going to kill him, why not give him more of a story ahead of time so that the death had more of an impact? 2) the way Sean was treated; I get that it's business and showrunners need to make tough decisions to try to do what's best for the show, but I think they could have handled this one so much better. It felt like Sean was thrown under the bus to appease some fans. Maybe I don't know the whole story and there were underlying issues with Sean, but to me it seemed like he was really enthusiastic about the show and got along great with the rest of the cast. So if they were really that set on getting rid of his character, why not do it in a way so that he could pop by from time to time? And if they really had to kill him, why obliterate his soul? That just seems a little too harsh.

I also thought Neal's death was poorly handled (I'm forever bitter about the lost potential of the Bae/Rumple relationship), but his character at least got the hero treatment. Robin's death was discussed only in terms of Regina's pain. I don't miss the character of Robin and I actually like that Regina ended up single (for now), but I feel annoyed about the weak writing.

Edited May 26, 2017 by Katherine

[Camera One]

Quote

And if they really had to kill him, why obliterate his soul? That just seems a little too harsh.

I suppose they felt it was necessary to explain why Regina split herself, though that isn't true.  Regina could have done it thinking she needs to do it for Robin.  But then, maybe that would make her seem weak, doing stuff for a man?  Who knows how these Writers think.  More likely, it's as explained above... they didn't think.

What other fallout was there, except Emma comforting Regina?  Oh yeah, the pointlessly idiotic "feud" between Regina and Zelena.  

I can't think of any other consequence of Robin "dying".

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

And if they really had to kill him, why obliterate his soul? That just seems a little too harsh.

Because if he had simply died, it would only be a matter of returning to the Underworld to get him back.

[KAOS Agent]

Regina didn't even seem all that broken up by his death. She had one episode where she was marginally sad and then it was Robin who? It seems like the writers killed off Robin just for the shock factor, but don't seem to believe that it really affected anything else. Poor Roland lost his daddy, but hey his mother's murderer(s) will come visit him sometime, so it's all good. It's all about hope!

If there were real consequences where the character is changed by an event, then the death could have been great. What if Regina was faced with the widow of the groom she murdered on his wedding day while standing at the grave site of Robin and that led to her gaining a better understanding of the pain she'd inflicted on others? Use it to give her some development. It's the shallow storytelling where this show really lost me. It's super disappointing to be a fan of a character who seemingly has a fantastic story opportunity and see it fizzle into nothing. It's something this show does over and over and over again.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

She had one episode where she was marginally sad and then it was Robin who? 

Then nine episodes later she was still pissed at Zelena over it. At that point, grief stopped being an excuse.

Quote

I actually like that Regina ended up single (for now

I hope Regina does find someone else, because that would be plausible for her character. She had always clung to a man, and if Robin hadn't died, she still would be. It would probably be healthier for her to remain single for a while, but I don't believe she would.

Edited May 27, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

If A&E had genuinely wanted to make the fans of Outlaw Queen feel better, they could have done a single episode with Robin in Season 6 where Regina travels to The Land of the Poor Unfortunate Obliterated Souls (you know there is one), which is at the end of the River of Lost Souls.  Here, she rescues Robin's soul and many other innocent souls (throw in Aunt Em, Milah, etc.) and Regina and Robin have a heartfelt goodbye.

The story they actually wrote was basically a story for The Evil Queen... now we know their ultimate plan for her all season was to have her save the day with a huge sacrifice (which is un-done 5 minutes later, but I digress).  Sean Maguire must have really wanted to come back, because that plotline didn't actually honor Robin at all.

Edited May 27, 2017 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

On 5/26/2017 at 9:18 AM, Mitch said:

the most frustrating thing about this show is that it continually worked overtime to avoid anything that would make the story richer and fuller..it almost disdained it to go for the most boring and shallow

This is why I call these writers idiot savants. They create all kinds of good potential, and then seem to work very hard to avoid using any of that potential.

So, there's the curse breaking -- Emma's now having to face the reality that these people who are her age are her parents, and they're Snow White and Prince Charming, and she's a princess who was born in another world. The Charmings have their daughter back, but she's not the infant they put in the wardrobe. She's an adult who's nothing like them, who's got WALLS and a chip on her shoulder because of the way she had to grow up. Not that Sheriff Emma has time to deal with all this because she's got to deal with a town in turmoil now that everyone has their memories back -- helping people find lost loved ones, mediating disputes when people are caught between curse situations that they've been living with for 28 years and their real identities, trying to keep the society in some kind of order. Meanwhile, Regina's no longer got any power advantage with the curse broken, and her curse put her in a world where her victims would actually be able to stand up to her. And, it turns out that she was just a patsy for Rumple's scheme to use the curse to get to his son. It was never really about allowing her to have her revenge.

Except, no, we skipped all that. We got magic back instantly, Regina spent about thirty seconds in a jail cell, the issues of the town coming back from the curse were skimmed over, and they never dealt head-on with the screwy relationship between Emma and her parents. Instead, we had to jump right away into another adventure. I do love the 2A Team Princess adventure, but wouldn't it have had more depth and meaning if we'd seen some of Emma and her mother dealing with some awkwardness and Emma having to struggle with all those people with fairy tale identities before she got sent to the fairy tale land and got to see her mother in her own element?

Or there was the Neal stuff. He was so upset about the effect magic had on his father that he tried to get his father to go with him to a world without magic, but his father balked and let him go on his own. Then he found himself right back in a magical world when he was stuck in Neverland (did we ever learn when/if he learned that Pan was his grandfather?), where he learned the truth about his mother's fate and had about a century to get to know his "stepfather." Eventually, he managed to escape back to the World Without Magic, which had changed to the point of being entirely unlike any place he'd ever known. Somewhere along the way, he changed from being a noble, idealistic boy into a cynical thief. Then he discovers that he can never seem to escape his past because his girlfriend turns out to be from his world, and key to breaking a curse. But his father finds him anyway, and he learns that his ex had a son he never knew about. His father hasn't changed at all, other than to get even worse. He cursed an entire society in order to find his son, and then there's that knowledge that he murdered Neal's mother. Then they have to put all those issues aside to save Henry, and Neal finds that his old friend/stepfather is his rival for Emma's affections, but is willing to step aside for Henry's sake, only it's not too clear what Emma wants (there was that confession that she wished Neal was dead).

Except they skipped all that. Once Rumple found Neal, he barely noticed him because he was more worried about his girlfriend's amnesia and new personality. Neal's mother's fate never came up -- did he eventually come to believe Hook's story, or did he always believe Hook killed her? Having to work together to save Henry seems to have resolved all of Neal's issues with his father because they jumped straight to "I love you, Papa." The curse reverse and Neal's death kept us from learning what might have happened with Neal, Hook, and Emma or from seeing if Neal had changed or if he'd go back to his old ways, or if he was willing to stick around in a magical society instead of heading back to New York. We never learned how he coped upon arriving in our world in the 20th century, never learned what he did during his time in Neverland.

Really, the Missing Year should have come half a season later -- leave Pan in Neverland, go have another arc in Storybrooke, and then let Pan pop up again when he finds a way to reach them there. That allows Hook to have spent more than a week with Emma before he's willing to trade everything he owns to reach her, allows Emma to have a chance to really start considering a choice about the man she wants in her life, allows Neal to address all the issues with his father and his son. It might even have made the Charmings' choice of baby name make a little more sense, rather than them naming their kid after a guy they barely knew. But no, we had to rush into the next story, totally skipping past all the interpersonal and situational conflicts.

18 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Because if he had simply died, it would only be a matter of returning to the Underworld to get him back.

I think that's where going for Shocking! with Hook's death caught them in a trap. If they'd had him disappear like Rumple did when he killed Pan and himself with the dagger, then there was precedent for him being brought back to life that wouldn't necessarily apply to any other death on the show. But having him wheeled away in a body bag meant they'd have to find a reason why no other characters could be saved. I thought they left themselves some wiggle room with Emma's plan not working, and Hook only being saved because Zeus himself sent him back, and with the ambrosia forest being destroyed they couldn't even try Emma's plan again, so heading back to the Underworld would be pointless. But clearly the writers were worried about the "but if Hook came back, why not Robin?" factor. And then they found a way to bring him back, anyway.

And talk about being bad at dealing with death, I don't think there was a single reference in all of season six to the fact that Hook spent half of season 5 dead and only came back to life due to literal divine intervention. A character died and came back from the dead, and it had zero effect on him or on the story.  ... Hmm, I wonder if this is how they'll explain Hook not aging in spite of the season 7 time jump -- it turns out that Zeus bringing him back to life changed him, and now he's not aging normally.

[Camera One]

That's a good summary of all the interesting fallout that they skipped, both with the breaking of the Curse/return of the memories, and with Neal/Rumple.

But with every passing year, the ABILITY to play out the potential was lost.  By the end of 6A, they had damaged so many of the characters and skipped so many payoff scenes, that there was basically nothing to look forward to.  That was pretty much when I decided that all hope was lost.  

I am sad that Emma, Snow and Charming - my three favorite characters from Season 1 - are leaving.  But the fact that the Writers KNEW Emma's parents were leaving, and STILL gave them practically no solo scenes together (and certainly no arcs or adventures) in Season 6... basically proves we would NEVER have seen the Charming family potential play out, even for a single stand-alone episode.  

I just wonder if even one Writer or network executive suggested a final Snow/Emma or Emma/Charming or Emma/Snowing episode or adventure, if it was an idea that was considered by dumped, or a concept that wasn't even verbalized because no one cared.  I suppose that wouldn't be a surprise because that hardly made the radar in social media posts about this show during Season 6.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

I thought they left themselves some wiggle room with Emma's plan not working, and Hook only being saved because Zeus himself sent him back, and with the ambrosia forest being destroyed they couldn't even try Emma's plan again, so heading back to the Underworld would be pointless. But clearly the writers were worried about the "but if Hook came back, why not Robin?" factor. And then they found a way to bring him back, anyway.

Well, Emma's plan didn't work only because of Hades' meddling. He wrote her name on a tombstone, so she wasn't "living" any more. Who knows if it really would have worked or not. The Underworld was confusing, because there were both corporeal and non-corporeal persons interacting with each other in a physical way. If Emma was able to split her heart and give half of it to Hook, wouldn't he need his body back to return to the overworld? The show never gave us any distinction between spirits and flesh. The writers left it all intentionally ambiguous, imo.

Quote

Except, no, we skipped all that. We got magic back instantly, Regina spent about thirty seconds in a jail cell, the issues of the town coming back from the curse were skimmed over, and they never dealt head-on with the screwy relationship between Emma and her parents. Instead, we had to jump right away into another adventure. I do love the 2A Team Princess adventure, but wouldn't it have had more depth and meaning if we'd seen some of Emma and her mother dealing with some awkwardness and Emma having to struggle with all those people with fairy tale identities before she got sent to the fairy tale land and got to see her mother in her own element?

In my personal opinion, I do think 2A did deal with some of these things, but only in the first three episodes. You had angry mobs after Regina, Charming trying to keep the town under control, Emma and Snow bonding in the Enchanted Forest, and Henry confronting his mother about the abuse. After that, the writers got excited and started introducing new characters while pushing the adventure angle. Cora, Hook, and the side characters started stealing the show. By that time, the writers were bored of the curse aftermath. 2A was trying to be both Team Princess and Storybrooke unhinged, but the former got the better end of it.

Quote

 (did we ever learn when/if he learned that Pan was his grandfather?)

I seem to recall Rumple telling everyone flat-out that Pan was his father. Later in 3B, Neal mentioned to Emma that Pan was his "evil grandfather".

Edited May 27, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

16 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

In my personal opinion, I do think 2A did deal with some of these things, but only in the first three episodes. You had angry mobs after Regina, Charming trying to keep the town under control, Emma and Snow bonding in the Enchanted Forest, and Henry confronting his mother about the abuse. After that, the writers got excited and started introducing new characters while pushing the adventure angle. Cora, Hook, and the side characters started stealing the show.

Yes, that was really telling.  I do like 2A a lot in hindsight, but I remember being disappointed because Emma and Snow hardly had any deep conversations beyond "Lady of the Lake" (third episode).  The next time - and pretty much the last time - was in 3A with the conversation at the end of "Lost Girl", which was initially written for Hook so it was actually an accident.  Even Ginnifer Goodwin cites that scene as one of the most memorable for her in the series, which surprised me.  

Edited May 27, 2017 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

2 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Well, Emma's plan didn't work only because of Hades' meddling. He wrote her name on a tombstone, so she wasn't "living" any more. Who knows if it really would have worked or not. The Underworld was confusing, because there were both corporeal and non-corporeal persons interacting with each other in a physical way. If Emma was able to split her heart and give half of it to Hook, wouldn't he need his body back to return to the overworld?

Once her name was off the tombstone, it still didn't work because his soul had been separated from his body for too long and his body was rotting, though I'm not sure how her sticking part of her heart into his soul was going to get him back in the first place. None of that ever made any sense, and I don't think they thought about how they were going to get Hook back before they killed him. They may really have thought it was going to be the heart splitting thing at first, but then there was no drama in that once they started writing the arc. They also seemed to keep forgetting about the difference between corporeal and non-corporeal. Like, shouldn't Hook's soul body have had both hands? The loss of the hand was something that happened to his physical body. Why would his Underworld hook have the same powers as his real hook that was presumably either in the morgue or a grave in Storybrooke? Was his hook like the pen and had its own soul so that the spell Cora once placed on it still applied to the version in the Underworld? How was putting a heart into the soul supposed to bring the body back to life? It might have made sense if it was a way of sneaking the soul out of the Underworld to be reunited with the body (though there we had the issue of the unhealable mortal wounds), or if they were finding a way to make the Underworld soul body corporeal, but that's not the way it came across. And we still don't know if Zeus made the Underworld soul body corporeal, so that Hook's original body is still in a grave, or if he revived and healed the original body and reunited it with the soul.

22 minutes ago, Camera One said:

But with every passing year, the ABILITY to play out the potential was lost.  By the end of 6A, they had damaged so many of the characters and skipped so many payoff scenes, that there was basically nothing to look forward to.

Yeah, you have to go back to 2A, 2B at the latest, to fix the problems. Otherwise, it becomes too late to ever really deal with them, and it snowballs along the way. Like with the Graham issue, if Emma had learned in 2B and if Regina had shown any sign of remorse, Emma might still have managed to eventually get past it so that in season 6 she'd developed some kind of friendship with Regina. Or even if Regina had confessed in 4A and used that as an empathy thing rather than spending that arc whining about Emma ruining her life by bringing Marian back, they might have got past it by season 6. But by never bringing it up, they'd brought things to a point where they couldn't deal with it without huge fallout. If Emma learned about it in season 6 and knew Regina had known all along, especially during the "you ruined my life" whining and all the efforts to give Regina a happy ending, it really should have had catastrophic effects on their relationship. Likewise, once Neal and Rumple had any kind of "I love you, Papa" moment, they couldn't very well go back and address the issues behind their rift or Rumple's murder of Neal's mother. After everyone's already been friends with Regina and sacrificing for her, it's too late for her to apologize or face any consequences. Once Neal's dead, it's too late for there to be any point in showing his life in Neverland or his return to our world. Once Emma and her parents are acting like everything's okay, they can't really go back and deal with their underlying issues.

[KingOfHearts]

Something tells me the writers' room is one big circle jerk. Everyone thinks Regina is a misunderstood goddess, Rumple is the face of humanity, and Snow is a nuanced heroine. We've never seen their opinions differ, even slightly. In an ensemble show, you need all kinds of perspectives because your characters have them. At the end of the day, the characters all speak with the same voice and have the same ideals with very little variance. They rarely question each other's philosophies, unless it's an obvious right vs. wrong situation. (Emma is "wrong" for being a realist, the townspeople are "wrong" for not believing in Regina, etc.) The only notable exception I can of think is Rumpbelle, since it flips back and forth so much. Sometimes Belle is portrayed as the voice of reason, while others, Rumple is the "honest" one.

The writers are never objective about anything.

[Camera One]

7 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Snow is a nuanced heroine.

Snow is more of an afterthought, after they've plotted out the arcs of their fav's.  Coin toss whether she's Snow or Mary Margaret this arc.

Edited May 28, 2017 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Just now, Camera One said:

Snow is more of an afterthought, after they've plotted out the arcs of their fav's.

Yes, but they were the first to put a sword in her hand!! ;)

Isn't this show soooo progressive?

Edited May 28, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

3 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Isn't this show soooo progressive?

I'm glad you have seen the Light.

Love,

A&E

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

I'm glad you have seen the Light.

Love,

A&E

Well, A&E, I for one was touched by the rushed LGBT romance between Dorothy and Red Riding Hood. Truly, there is hope for the world.

Stay edgy, A&E.

Edited May 28, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[kitticup]

1 hour ago, KingOfHearts said:

Something tells me the writers' room is one big circle jerk. Everyone thinks Regina is a misunderstood goddess, Rumple is the face of humanity, and Snow is a nuanced heroine. We've never seen their opinions differ, even slightly. In an ensemble show, you need all kinds of perspectives because your characters have them. At the end of the day, the characters all speak with the same voice and have the same ideals with very little variance. They rarely question each other's philosophies, unless it's an obvious right vs. wrong situation. (Emma is "wrong" for being a realist, the townspeople are "wrong" for not believing in Regina, etc.) The only notable exception I can of think is Rumpbelle, since it flips back and forth so much. Sometimes Belle is portrayed as the voice of reason, while others, Rumple is the "honest" one.

The writers are never objective about anything.

I think that is a problem at the top.  I remember reading that the OUAT writers room was very quiet.  These guys should be debating but A&E may be too thin skinned.

[Camera One]

16 minutes ago, kitticup said:

I think that is a problem at the top.  I remember reading that the OUAT writers room was very quiet.  These guys should be debating but A&E may be too thin skinned.

Or maybe they pick like-minded people to be part of the Writers' Room.  Quiet was described as they were all in sync and cerebral in thinking things through, which is definitely not seen in the output.

[Shanna Marie]

Thinking more about their killing characters ... I wonder if they always planned to kill Robin at some point, if his fridging was built into his character because it would have an emotional effect on Regina, or if they ever considered him to truly be endgame for Regina and planned to keep him around. When you look at his character, he's basically written the way female love interests have traditionally been written. He has no real agency of his own. He just gets bounced around by other factors in the story and never drives his own story. He has a very undeveloped backstory, to the point that his legend and cartoon counterparts are more developed and fleshed-out than he is, and most of the character traits they gave him are just things they talk about and not things he actually ever does (his "code," the "rob from the rich to give to the poor" thing, while he dates a rich woman and never says a word about that). Everything that happens to him is about how it affects his love interest. He never really gets his own perspective. Regina is supposedly his soulmate, but it's all about him being for Regina, with no thought about her being for him. His long-lost wife returns from what was thought to be death, and it's about Regina losing her boyfriend. His decision about what to do is about whether he should be with Regina, without much thought about his own family. When he has to leave town with his wife, it's about how sad that makes Regina. When it turns out that his wife is really dead and he's been living with his murderer, who is pregnant with his baby, it's about how sad that makes Regina, with no thought whatsoever on how he's affected. When he dies, it's about how sad Regina is and how that spurs her to split herself. If the writers had any self awareness, I might wonder if they were doing this on purpose as some kind of social commentary (I could totally see someone like Joss Whedon creating a male love interest character to be treated the way female love interests are, but then he'd probably do some kind of twist and force you to see things from that character's perspective, anyway), but then they literally fridged Marian and treat Belle a lot like Robin was treated, so I think it's just bad writing.

And Sean Maguire was being pretty naive if he was surprised about being killed off, given the way his character was treated. I don't recall when he was officially a regular and when he wasn't, but he played a fairly significant role in 3B and was in just about every episode, played a significant role and was pivotal to Regina's part of the plot in 4A, but then was almost entirely absent in 4B until the end, was a regular in season 5, but could have been removed from the show entirely without changing the story at all. He only mattered to one episode in 5A, but that one had no lasting implications -- his death being "owed" never came up again, nor did the effect healing him had on Emma. Then the only thing he did in 5B that mattered was dying. It was like they really never were sure what to do with the character. They liked the idea of him, but the only way they used him was to give Regina angst. I guess if she was living happily ever after with Robin, they couldn't claim she was an underdog who always got the short end of the stick, so bad things had to keep happening to him.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

He just gets bounced around by other factors in the story and never drives his own story. He has a very undeveloped backstory, to the point that his legend and cartoon counterparts are more developed and fleshed-out than he is, and most of the character traits they gave him are just things they talk about and not things he actually ever does (his "code," the "rob from the rich to give to the poor" thing, while he dates a rich woman and never says a word about that).

It got to the point his character was borderline contradicting itself. Even the details of his story on the show get murky. First, he lost Marian by putting her in harm's way during a job. Then later, we learned he lost Marian via execution because she defended Snow. It's not impossible for these two facts to both be true, but it seems like the writers took a different approach to his backstory after getting a "bright idea". Except - that wasn't the case. They told Lana before Regina even met Robin that she had killed Marian.

I think the only point to Regina killing Marian was that it was convenient. Emma was going to be imprisoned by the Evil Queen, so logically she'd want to save her if she's in the cell next to her. I'm sure it sounded like juicy drama at the time, too. Yet, they never delved into it. Even when Regina decided in 4x01 to go back in time and murder her before Emma could save her, the circumstances surrounding her looming death could have been anything. 

And just to be clear, I'm not even addressing Zarian. The writers had no idea that Marian was Zelena, so that's irrelevant. That didn't pop into their heads until they started writing 4B. (Or maaaybe when they wrote 4x11, where Zarian got "cursed" again.)

Edited May 28, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

53 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Even the details of his story on the show get murky. First, he lost Marian by putting her in harm's way during a job. Then later, we learned he lost Marian via execution because she defended Snow.

I always figured that Marian was on that job when she defended Snow and got arrested and was due for execution. But they never got into it. The fact that Regina was responsible for him losing Marian was one of those big deal emotional things that they skipped over entirely. It made their relationship gross on both sides. If he knew and it didn't bother him, it makes him look bad. Her knowing and being okay with sleeping with the husband of a woman she imprisoned makes her look bad. I can't see how the writers didn't see any problems here or didn't want to deal with the problems they brought up. There's some juicy stuff here -- Regina not only rejected meeting her soulmate, but she went on to torture and execute (in the initial timeline) his wife, so that she made it nearly impossible for her to ever be with her soulmate, tainting that relationship. That's such an interesting concept, taking actions that trash any potential relationship you could ever have with your soulmate. But that didn't happen. It actually becomes weirder with the Zarian twist because while real Marian might have taken the high road and not trashed Regina to Robin, it's really hard to imagine Zelena, who has disguised herself for the sole purpose of tormenting Regina, not making sure Robin had all the gory details about the terrible things Regina did to Marian (even if she made up some of the details). So it's impossible to imagine Zelena not telling, but it's also impossible to imagine Robin knowing and not saying a word about it to Regina and still wanting to sleep with Regina.

Not to mention all the missed opportunities of Regina having to really see the fallout of her actions and experiencing what she put other people through, where, again, it makes her look bad that she didn't connect those dots, and it robs the character of what should have been some emotional growth.

[Camera One]

1 minute ago, Shanna Marie said:

Not to mention all the missed opportunities of Regina having to really see the fallout of her actions and experiencing what she put other people through, where, again, it makes her look bad that she didn't connect those dots, and it robs the character of what should have been some emotional growth.

Don't worry.  We have Season 7 for that.

[Souris]

5 hours ago, kitticup said:

I think that is a problem at the top.  I remember reading that the OUAT writers room was very quiet.  These guys should be debating but A&E may be too thin skinned.

I'm sure they are. They've shown it time and again. Jane described the OUATiW writers room as being collaborative with writers bouncing ideas off each other. Meanwhile, the Once writers room was quiet with everybody working on their own stuff. Pretty sure A&E set down what's going to happen and that's that. There's no use for the writers to talk about things because A&E don't listen to other ideas. There's no brainstorming to figure out what makes sense or come up with other, better ideas.

[daxx]

At Sean's panel today he said he felt the way the writing was headed that he'd be around awhile which is why he moved and got a house in Vancouver. He was bummed when they killed Robin as he liked his friends and co workers.

[Shanna Marie]

12 minutes ago, daxx said:

At Sean's panel today he said he felt the way the writing was headed that he'd be around awhile which is why he moved and got a house in Vancouver.

That's where you have to wonder how much attention he was paying, since through most of season 5 it was almost like the writers even forgot he was in the show. I wonder when he moved. If it was between seasons 4 and 5, I could imagine that he figured he'd be around for awhile, given the grand reunion with Regina and the retcon that left him free and clear to be with her. During season 5, his character was a non-entity. The writing was on the wall within about five episodes. These writers are like kids who spend the whole Christmas season begging for a particular toy, then when they open it on Christmas morning, they play with it for about thirty seconds before tossing it aside. As soon as the writers get a new character on the roster, they lose all interest in writing for that character. I think Hook was the only addition who didn't get forgotten after joining the cast. They made Ruby a regular for season two, then wrote so little for her that she wanted out. Belle spent entire episodes sleeping. Will had maybe 20 minutes of screentime in a whole season. Neal was barely around as a regular before he was killed (I wonder if they only added him as an official regular so they could get the shock value of killing someone in the main credits). Zelena was mostly in the background when she was added as a regular. Robin was just about forgotten once he joined the cast as a regular. It's like your name moving from guest cast to regular cast is the kiss of death for your screentime.

[Camera One]

I was reading this ancient interview from Season 1, and this probably explains why the writing for Storybrooke parts of episodes is generally so weak:

Quote

Question: On the show, do you have any preference for Storybrooke or fairytale storylines?

Jane Espenson: We've actually found, in the writers' room, that we love both but they have a very different feel to them. 

Fairytale-land stories tend to break more quickly and easily. You would think that, as we would write an episode, that the first thing we would do is figure out all the beats that are going to happen in Storybrooke -- because that's the episode that has to be told in chronological order, those storylines -- whereas in fairytale land, we can bop around. So you'd think that would drive it, but in fact it's almost always the fairytale stories that break first... Fairytale land tends to be the one that more quickly resolves itself, and then we work on Storybrooke.

I guess we should have seen this as an omen:

Quote

Question: What can you say about the upcoming Once Upon a Time episode, "The Return"?

Jane Espenson: "The Return...' I really love this one. It's another Rumplestiltskin episode and he is my favorite. 

Quote

Question: Oh yes. Now, you mentioned that your favorite character is Rumplestiltskin. What is it about the character that you like so much?

Jane Espenson: What don't I like? Holy crap, this character amazing!

Granted, the character WAS amazing in Season 1.  But I am guessing this has not changed, and that's why he's still in Season 7.

[Shanna Marie]

14 hours ago, Camera One said:

but in fact it's almost always the fairytale stories that break first... Fairytale land tends to be the one that more quickly resolves itself, and then we work on Storybrooke.

That makes some sense for season one because the Storybrooke side of things was fairly static and was mostly treading water until all the backstory was revealed in the fairybacks. I guess the only real story questions for the present-day part of the story were would Emma believe and would Emma break the curse, and since there was actual prophecy saying Emma would break the curse, it was kind of a given. Plus, it would have been a really dumb show if Emma never broke the curse. Meanwhile, all the real action and direct confrontation with villains happened in the flashbacks. That was where all the fairytale twists happened, where there was some suspense about what Snow had done to Regina and why Rumple was helping both Regina and the Charmings.

It makes less sense in subsequent seasons, where the villains and the main action were in the present and the flashbacks were mostly thematic or backstory for specific characters, seldom even really setting anything up.

14 hours ago, Camera One said:

Granted, the character WAS amazing in Season 1.  But I am guessing this has not changed, and that's why he's still in Season 7.

Rumple has become a really tricky character where I think their own love of him hampers the writing of him. They really love him, and they love him as deliciously evil, so he can never be truly, 100 percent reformed. He's always going to backslide, no matter how many times he gets to have the hero moment and do the right thing. But at the same time, they want him to be sympathetic and complex, so that he's sad about being evil, or he's weak and just can't help being evil, or he's a big victim who has had a sad life and being evil is a natural response to that. So we have a character who can't be depended on, who has done horrible things to most of the other characters, but a lot of it is excused, and sometimes he's treated as fully reformed, except he keeps doing awful things, and he seldom suffers any consequences. For instance, Milah has suffered far more in-show criticism, punishment, and remorse for abandoning her family than Rumple has for murdering her -- she got murdered, spent more than a century in the Underworld forced to atone, then got dumped into the River of Lost Souls after a flashback that mostly set things up to make her look like a shrew who wanted her husband to murder to save her son. The person shown as being truly wronged by Rumple making the deal to sell his second-born child was Belle, and then Rumple ended up murdering the person Milah wanted him to kill in the first place. We gripe a lot about the way they whitewash Regina, but at least Regina has quit being actively evil. She hasn't done much more than be a bit bitchy. Rumple has betrayed them all multiple times, caused so much harm, and chose to become the Dark One again, in a massive betrayal. And yet they can't seem to make themselves lose any sympathy for him, and he gets to be part of the family. It'll be interesting to see what role they put him in next season. I doubt he'll still be truly good and part of the family because they like him being evil too much.

[superloislane]

On 2017-5-29 at 6:08 PM, Shanna Marie said:

We gripe a lot about the way they whitewash Regina, but at least Regina has quit being actively evil. She hasn't done much more than be a bit bitchy.

I was about to say that.

I think Regina's redemption is a joke but at least they don't have her actively plotting with the current main villain every single season like Rumple AND THE HEROES ALL KNOW ABOUT THIS and then he's still welcomed as part of the family 2 seconds later because he did something not horrible for once. I'll never get over Henry saying to Dark One Emma that Rumple had proven he'd changed! When Henry, when?

Edited May 30, 2017 by superloislane

[Camera One]

That's a really good point.  And the Writers expect us to really feel for Rumple's humanity whenever he has an emotional conversation with Belle and/or talk about how much he cares about his son.  Give me a break.

[KingOfHearts]

The writers think of heroes and villains as two different sports teams, not right or wrong. We're just told to root for the heroes more often. So, it's alright that Rumple does bad things. He just does life differently. 4B is the most prominent example of double standards and moral wonkiness. In that arc, Team Rumple and Team Regina both wanted the same thing - happy endings. Regina's plan was not all that different. 

[ParadoxLost]

1 hour ago, KingOfHearts said:

The writers think of heroes and villains as two different sports teams, not right or wrong. We're just told to root for the heroes more often. So, it's alright that Rumple does bad things. He just does life differently. 4B is the most prominent example of double standards and moral wonkiness. In that arc, Team Rumple and Team Regina both wanted the same thing - happy endings. Regina's plan was not all that different. 

I would say that the villain teams are more like the Cubs or the Red Sox when they where suffering the curse of the Billy goat and the Bambino, respectively.  We are supposed to root for the villains team because they've been cursed to never have a happily after through no fault of their own or from something that happened so long ago that the losing is unfair.  Because of the ongoing nature of not winning, the curse is the cause off the continued loses rather than current actions.

[Shanna Marie]

2 hours ago, superloislane said:

I think Regina's redemption is a joke but at least they don't have her actively plotting with the current main villain every single season like Rumple AND THE HEROES ALL KNOW ABOUT THIS and then he's still welcomed as part of the family 2 seconds later because he did something not horrible for once.

Rumple really has the most powerful plot armor in the history of plot armor. Not only is he pretty much immune to any attack from the villains, but he can't be hurt or defeated by the good guys, no matter what he does. I could kind of buy that, given that he's immortal and superpowered. But not only do the good guys not do anything at all about the worst villain they've encountered who's directly and personally harmed most of them and who has repeatedly shown that he's willing to let them all die if it gets him what he wants or if helping them might be an inconvenience, but they will actually go out of their way to save him when he's in trouble. That's the part that makes no sense. I guess they kind of had reason to save him from Hook's poison since they'd just learned he was Henry's grandfather and that was their way of defeating Cora (it's funny how killing Cora is shown to be a bad thing, while saving Rumple has never been criticized), but there was absolutely no reason for Robin to do anything whatsoever to save Rumple from dying of his own evil. I still don't get why Robin bothered to go steal that potion from the Wizard's old shop.

Basically, Rumple is still alive and is treated like part of the family because the writers love him and can't bother to part with him, and yet they also don't bother to write in any kind of logical reason for keeping him around. They want him to be deliciously evil and untrustworthy and to be part of the family. Never mind that this should be mutually exclusive.

2 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

4B is the most prominent example of double standards and moral wonkiness. In that arc, Team Rumple and Team Regina both wanted the same thing - happy endings. Regina's plan was not all that different. 

They were the exact same plan. Rumple got the idea from Regina. They were both planning to find the Author to write a happy ending. The only difference was the reason and the nature of that happy ending. Rumple happened to be right in that being a villain was killing him, while Regina thought bad things were happening because of her having been a villain when there was no sign that this was true (and nothing bad was actually happening to her. It was bad things happening to Robin and "Marian" that upset Regina's plans). And Rumple had a very specific plan to have himself rewritten as a hero so he wouldn't die of being a villain, while we never found out what Regina's plan was. Rumple's plan did affect everyone else, but we don't know how Regina's happy ending would have affected others. But Regina's plan was good and everyone was working to help her, while Rumple's plan was evil and had to be stopped -- and they were trying to get the same thing.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

 And Rumple had a very specific plan to have himself rewritten as a hero so he wouldn't die of being a villain, while we never found out what Regina's plan was. Rumple's plan did affect everyone else, but we don't know how Regina's happy ending would have affected others.

The only hangup with Rumple's plan was he also wanted to take away the heroes' happy endings. He was all for Isaac's deluded fantasies. Funny how the heroes only seem to care about injustice if it affects them.

Quote

I think Regina's redemption is a joke but at least they don't have her actively plotting with the current main villain every single season like Rumple AND THE HEROES ALL KNOW ABOUT THIS and then he's still welcomed as part of the family 2 seconds later because he did something not horrible for once. I'll never get over Henry saying to Dark One Emma that Rumple had proven he'd changed! When Henry, when?

Regina has been pretty dependable. Even if you accuse her of backsliding into the Evil Queen, she'll still help you find Henry. Even if she hates your guts for dating the man who killed her boyfriend, she'll still save your life. The last time she did anything especially horrible or betraying was scheme to kill Marian in 4A. She's got plenty of skeletons in her closet (both literally and figuratively), but at least the heroes can know she won't betray them all for shiny powers. Her moral compass isn't always particularly accurate, but she does make some consistent effort to follow it.

Surprisingly enough, Rumple is the one who follows how he's feeling in any given moment. "Do I feel like being a hero today?"

Edited May 31, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Souris]

Adam is currently practically begging fans to watch on Twitter. I can smell the desperation through the monitor. He must be worried that his timeline is as dead as his creative spark because there is zero buzz or interest in S7, so he's trying to stir up drama.

[Camera One]

Yeah, I was wondering why he's suddenly jumping into Twitter after avoiding it for so long.  He spent the afternoon reassuring SQ fans and now it's CS fans.  No wonder the writing is so stilted on this show.

He doesn't have a clue.  Why would viewers want to get invested in new characters if they felt there was no payoff for the exiting ones?

Edited June 12, 2017 by Camera One

[Souris]

He also, unbidden, unblocked several CSers 

[orza]

33 minutes ago, Souris said:

Adam is currently practically begging fans to watch on Twitter. I can smell the desperation through the monitor. He must be worried that his timeline is as dead as his creative spark because there is zero buzz or interest in S7, so he's trying to stir up drama.

I just read through Adam's tweets from today and don't see any begging or desperation on his part. What I see is him being very patient with a few very whiny needy little girls who have lost all perspective that this is just a TV show. That one chick in particular who was serial tweeting is a train wreck.

[Souris]

5 minutes ago, orza said:

I just read through Adam's tweets from today and don't see any begging or desperation on his part. What I see is him being very patient with a few very whiny needy little girls who have lost all perspective that this is just a TV show. That one chick in particular who was serial tweeting is a train wreck.

Spending hours tweeting fans and saying to tell everybody to send him feedback screams desperation to me. Speaking of needy....

If Adam is going to spend ages replying to a fan, then he's encouraging fans to tweet (and serial tweet) him. He has a history of long Twitter engagements with fans. I didn't really look to see what all people were tweeting him, but calling somebody a "train wreck" and a "needy little girl" seems pretty nasty.

[Camera One]

He just sent five consecutive tweets saying "No one is blocked!"

I don't get what feedback he's looking for.  He never replied to me when I asked him when the next Snow/Emma adventure episode was, LOL.

[orza]

33 minutes ago, Souris said:

Spending hours tweeting fans and saying to tell everybody to send him feedback screams desperation to me. Speaking of needy....

If Adam is going to spend ages replying to a fan, then he's encouraging fans to tweet (and serial tweet) him. He has a history of long Twitter engagements with fans. I didn't really look to see what all people were tweeting him, but calling somebody a "train wreck" and a "needy little girl" seems pretty nasty.

Nowadays a lot of show runners interact with fans on social media. I see nothing wrong with what Adam is doing.

If these people serial tweeting Adam are teenagers then their parents need to intervene because they are out of control. If they are adults then they have much bigger problems than a fictional couple they like possibly not being together in future episodes. When people get so overinvested in a TV show to the point that they cannot stop themselves from acting out in public with overwrought tirades and needy begging for reassurance and validation of their feelings then, yeah, I'm gonna judge them to be train wrecks. That's not really what I think of as normal behavior for a mature, well-adjusted adult.

From everything I've seen and heard and read, Adam and Eddy are doing their jobs pretty much the same way as many other show runners who have to produce 20+ episodes a season on a very tight schedule.

 

17 minutes ago, Camera One said:

He just sent five consecutive tweets saying "No one is blocked!"

I don't get what feedback he's looking for.  He never replied to me when I asked him when the next Snow/Emma adventure episode was, LOL.

So does Adam have another Twitter account because what I'm seeing is that he hasn't posted in a couple of hours? I don't see any consecutive tweets just posted.

Edited June 12, 2017 by orza

[Camera One]

He deleted the consecutive tweets.  Also, click in the middle section "Tweets & Replies" for some of his more recent replies.

[orza]

1 minute ago, Camera One said:

He deleted the consecutive tweets.  Also, click in the middle section "Tweets & Replies" for some of his more recent replies.

I am looking at Tweets & Replies.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

Adam: "I assure you that is not the case. Even if zero people watch, i promise I care about the feelings of those who are/were invested"

I don't understand. If people are invested, won't they be watching?

[Camera One]

31 minutes ago, orza said:

I am looking at Tweets & Replies.

He went through a deleted a bunch that he had tweeted that hour.

[KAOS Agent]

I read a recap of his replies about the new season and they were not inspiring. #nospoilers is fine to keep major plot resolutions secret (not that these writers are capable of surprising anyone at this point), but some sort of something is required to get people interested. There's a reason books have a blurb on the back and TV episodes have a synopsis. They need to do something because there have been Once conventions all summer long and I see very few people talking about them beyond fangirling over a favorite and almost no one is discussing the upcoming season.

On a separate topic, I saw someone asked Colin a question about how he gets embarrassed discussing kissing scenes with fans and it led to him talking about how the writers describe each Captain Swan kiss as "epic" and how he and Jen have difficulty making every damn kiss "epic". It's that kind of thing that makes these writers look foolish. Not every kiss is epic. Not every kiss should be. Professional writers ought to be able to come up with something other than epic when writing for their characters. Yes, big moments are important, but things can be more subtle. This is why we don't get the quiet moments. Because it seems everything needs to be epic and over the top. I'd hazard a guess that Lana's Evil Queen directions for S6 were equally as over the top and dramatic and that's why we got so much almost clownish behavior from the Evil Queen.

[Rumsy4]

6 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Quote

Adam: "I assure you that is not the case. Even if zero people watch, i promise I care about the feelings of those who are/were invested"

I don't understand. If people are invested, won't they be watching?

No wonder their writing makes no sense. lol

[Souris]

I don't know any other TV producers who regularly seek out untagged tweets to reply to.

[RadioGirl27]

38 minutes ago, Souris said:

I don't know any other TV producers who regularly seek out untagged tweets to reply to.

And then delete everything. He is just pathetic.