The Writers of OUAT: Because, Um, Magic, That's Why

[Camera One]

LOL, you don't even have to write a punchline with him.

[andromeda331]

I have to applaud the writers and A&E especially.  They have ALL of FICTION to chose from and explore. All the Disney Princesses and Villains, Frankenstein, Little Red Riding Hood, Robin Hood, Camelot, Greek mythology, the Count of Monte Cristo along, and ALL OF FICTION and they managed to come up with the most boring stories. Until them I never would have thought it was possible.  Or too run out of ideas so fast. Until A&E I would have thought you could easily have years of storylines. But thank you A&E you have proved me wrong. It takes some skill to do that.

[Mathius]

A&E are gifted in every other area of show-running to get the show this far, but yes, if they were as gifted as writers, it would have gone even farther. As it stands, everyone knows that the seventh season is going to be the last.   If they had only written the show better and in a different way - a slower way, allowing things to breathe, and a more fun way where things are actually hopeful - it could have gotten more years, maybe twice as much.

Edited October 29, 2016 by Mathius

[Camera One]

If they know at the back of their minds that Season 7 is the last, it's extra pathetic that they are wasting all the characters' times right now.  For the first time in forever (heh), zero of the characters' arcs have any worth.

[Mathius]

OK, Brigitte Hale just confirmed here that she actually read Nemo's story before writing the episode, which is why he came off as in-character to his literary source...or at least, how his literary source would be between his vengeful 20,000 Leagues phase and his remorseful Mysterious Island phase. But she also confirms that she wasn't required to do that.  This explains why the show's depiction Count of Monte Cristo sucked so hard...A&E don't require the other writers to actually read the damn books, and the writers of 6x02 clearly did not.  Honestly, reading the books should be required.

Edited October 31, 2016 by Mathius

[Free]

On 10/25/2016 at 6:54 AM, Curio said:

I was contemplating this in another thread, but I'm beginning to suspect we're heading towards another How I Met Your Mother situation with A&E and the series finale of this show. I think they have a very specific ending in their minds that they want to achieve and they never expected to be on the air this long, so that's why we have so many repetitive plots this season and resetting characters backward like robots into former versions of themselves. We have the writers literally bringing back the Season 1 version of Regina with the Evil Queen, we have the writers reverting Emma back by pushing her walls up and not learning her lesson from last season, we have Snow reverting to wanting to become a teacher again and even giving a speech about how she missed Season 1 and the curse, and then they try to revert Hook back by having David make pirate comments again about not trusting him. It's like they're afraid of letting the characters grow too much so they have to reign them back now. The characters have done a lot of growth since Season 1, and there's still so much more room for improvement, but Season 6 seems to be trying it's hardest to stall on any progression and even revert the characters instead of trying to move forward. Like with HIMYM, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the characters have to act out of character or get stomped on in order to fit the mold of whatever ending A&E have in mind.

Also, where's the exploration of " character duality" the writers promised over the summer? They said that Regina and the Evil Queen was the obvious physical representation of exploring character duality, but I'm not seeing much of that exploration with the other characters. Is Emma's duality supposed to be her struggle between being a Savior and being magicless? Is Snow's duality whether she wants to be a teacher or a badass archer? They haven't really explored duality with any of the other characters yet.

HIMYM's situation seems more isolated with the finale itself, whereas OuaT is coming off seasons of bad writing.

[Camera One]

how his literary source would be between his vengeful 20,000 Leagues phase and his remorseful Mysterious Island phase.

She did say she read "the book".  Unless she meant both of them.  I didn't know Nemo's story continued in Mysterious Island so I will read that one next.

[TheGreenKnight]

On ‎10‎/‎29‎/‎2016 at 9:46 AM, Mathius said:

A&E are gifted in every other area of show-running to get the show this far, but yes, if they were as gifted as writers, it would have gone even farther. As it stands, everyone knows that the seventh season is going to be the last.   If they had only written the show better and in a different way - a slower way, allowing things to breathe, and a more fun way where things are actually hopeful - it could have gotten more years, maybe twice as much.

I don't really believe the show would've gone too much longer than 7 years even if they were masterclass writers. I'm honestly still amazed that it's almost gone on as long as Desperate Housewives and it was never as big or impactful as that show was. When I started the show, I just kind of assumed 5 would be the longest it would go.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

I was going to put this in the Dark Waters thread, but maybe here is more appropriate?  (I still haven't read through all the comments on the episode thread yet - but I'm making my way through!) Just spit-balling here, but on the EQ suddenly deciding that now she wants Snow's heart - could it be possible - maaayyybeeee -  ifyousquintreallyhardintothesun - that the writers actually had that in mind all along, but waited to reveal it, thinking "ooh!  Won't that be a surprise?"  I know, I'm probably grasping at straws here.  And I have to admit that I stayed pretty unspoiled over the summer because the whole set up for season really didn't interest me that much.  

Same sort of question for the Golden Shears of Destiny, or whatever they are called.  Could they possibly (pretty please) already know how they work, but they are withholding that information thinking that equals 'Suspense!' ?

Or am I just being exceptionally delusional today?

[Rumsy4]

I'm pretty sure the writers were intentionally spinning their wheels with the EQ before the "big reveal" that she wants Snow's heart. They always spins their wheels in the beginning. I don't think they are changing directions. Same with the Shears. I don't see any evidence of major rewrites after they started filming (except perhaps for whatever they're planning with Robin). The only thing they reshot was for the season opener with Hyde so they could get him to play exposition fairy.

[Camera One]

On 10/31/2016 at 0:01 AM, Mathius said:

OK, Brigitte Hale just confirmed here that she actually read Nemo's story before writing the episode, which is why he came off as in-character to his literary source...or at least, how his literary source would be between his vengeful 20,000 Leagues phase and his remorseful Mysterious Island phase. But she also confirms that she wasn't required to do that.  

She confirmed she only read "20,000 Leagues".  Maybe she read a synopsis of "Mysterious Island", or she just came up with Nemo's remorse herself.

[Mathius]

10 hours ago, Camera One said:

She confirmed she only read "20,000 Leagues".  Maybe she read a synopsis of "Mysterious Island", or she just came up with Nemo's remorse herself.

Since Nemo was going to the Mysterious Island in the episode, she had to know about it.  So she probably read a synopsis, or the part of the book that Nemo was in (toward the end).  Either way, thanks to actual knowledge of the character he felt more like himself than Edmond Dantes did.

Edited November 4, 2016 by Mathius

[Camera One]

9 hours ago, Mathius said:

Since Nemo was going to the Mysterious Island in the episode, she had to know about it.  So she probably read a synopsis, or the part of the book that Nemo was in (toward the end).  Either way, thanks to actual knowledge of the character he felt more like himself than Edmond Dantes did.

Yes, if she Wikipedia'd "Captain Nemo" after reading "20,000 Leagues", his appearance in "The Mysterious Island" is described there.   None of his demeanor from "20,000" made it into the episode, though, since he was in full redemption mode.  I was hoping for or expecting him playing the organ in a melancholy way.  I did think her reading helped with incorporating the octopus attack and the underwater expedition.  Though I suppose the movie could have influenced that too.  

[AnotherCastle]

Podcast with A&E: https://twitter.com/Variety/status/794751094966468608

Didn't listen to the whole thing but there doesn't seem to be much stuff we didn't already know. More like more confirmation that the show they think they're writing and the show that airs are very different.

[Camera One]

I was looking at IMDB, and there have been so many productions of "The Mysterious Island" (most recently in 2012 and 2005, but also 1995, 1970s, etc.) that the Writers wouldn't have necessarily needed to read "The Mysterious Island" or even a synopsis to name-drop that as another name for The Land of Untold Stories.  All of these movies feature Captain Nemo.  

[Curio]

From the Regina thread:

Quote

If you're someone who needs some kind of justice, even if it's simply karmic, this is going to be the biggest barrier to supporting Regina and her redemption. It's particularly not helpful when they continue to add horrific crimes in her past.

 

It's also frustrating when Regina can do terrible things to the other main characters, but the writers will strategically go out of their way to not have Regina face those actions on screen. I can't think of many other television shows where the showrunners will admit to their lead doing something terrible to another main character but also confess that if they addressed the issue on screen, the main characters would be pissed at that lead..so they choose to ignore the issue entirely.

Quote

Will Emma ever confront Regina (Lana Parrilla) for killing Graham (Jamie Dornan)?
Horowitz: First of all, she doesn’t know that Regina killed Graham. If you look back at season one, before Emma believed, when she talks to Henry (Jared Gilmore) about the aftermath of Graham’s death, she says what the autopsy was, which was an aneurysm. She still believes that. [...] She actually doesn’t know that Regina was behind it. That’s never been something that has come up. If it did, I’m sure she would take issue with it.

 

Quote

Why is it that Regina ripping Belle’s heart out hasn’t been dealt with on Once Upon a Time? Will it be? 
I get a lot of emails about this, and though I always assumed that Belle gave Regina carte blanche to do whatever needed to be done in that Season 4 episode, I was wrong. (It happens!) “As far as Belle is concerned, she didn’t know,” series co-creator Adam Horowitz makes clear. “Regina came to talk to her, spelled her, took the heart and controlled her, told her to forget it and undid it.” (Worse, Horowitz quips, “Regina did not leave a driver’s license or a deposit.”) Co-creator Eddy Kitsis reckons that if a day comes “when Belle does find out, she won’t be happy! Belle doesn’t take any s—t.” (Ed. Note: Horowitz has clarified recent comments on this topic, acknowledging that Belle does know but has yet to act on it.)

 

"If it did, I’m sure [Emma] would take issue with it." "When Belle does find out, she won’t be happy!" These are some pretty messed up comments coming from writers of the show. We actually have the showrunners admitting other main characters would be pissed if they found out what Regina did to them, yet they still won't address the issues on screen. They claim to be writing a drama—and these kinds of situations are how juicy drama begins—but they purposely avoid it for Regina. The Dark Curse? Mostly Snow and Charming's fault for giving Emma away. Marian being pissed at Regina? Emma's fault for having the audacity to prevent Regina from murdering someone. The only plausible explanation for A&E doing these things over and over is that they're afraid of making Regina look too bad, and if they showed Emma or Belle getting angry at Regina for legitimate reasons, it ruins the idea they have in their heads about Regina's character. The general audience might buy into it, but if you think about the writing and meta too much, it comes across as manipulating.

Can we imagine if Hook killed August because he was about to reveal a huge secret about Hook, so Hook made the murder look like an accident, and then it turned out Hook's secret was revealed anyways, but August remained dead for the rest of the series and Emma never discovered Hook was behind the murder, and in fact, she decided to keep dating Hook? Everyone in the audience would be flipping out and demanding the secret be revealed, but when Regina does the same exact thing to Graham, it's crickets. We were all annoyed with Emma for keeping the vision about her death a secret from her loved ones and that Hook kept the shears a secret, but we knew the writers would eventually address those issues on screen. So why is it that Graham is this taboo topic that will never be addressed on screen? If the writers can pull an eggbaby retcon out of thin air, or have Liam 2.0 come back to haunt Hook, or bring up Charming's father's death after a few seasons of ignoring it, or bring back the current Snow White vs Evil Queen drama from Season 1, surely the Graham elephant in the room can also be addressed. But knowing our luck, A&E would go back on their word, Emma wouldn't  take issue with it, and it would all be swept under the rug in one episode.

Edited November 6, 2016 by Curio

[Camera One]

It will be resolved in one sentence.  "You're not that person anymore."

[Curio]

1 minute ago, Camera One said:

It will be resolved in one sentence. "You're not that person anymore."

Sadly, this is 100% accurate. 

[KingOfHearts]

The writers are addicted to using hypotheticals versus actual statements about their show. "I would be disappointed if we didn't see that..." or "I hope we get to that" or "They would probably be angry if they found out..." They're terrified of sharing things like facts because they don't stick with anything and there's often errors. They shouldn't even be addressing fans, but they have to because that's part of their job. (And that means they're bad at their job.) They've built such a complicated universe that you need really good writers to keep everything straight. Several of us analyze the show on an almost daily basis, and even we forget things from time to time. The writers don't have the time we do. 

Edited November 6, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Curio]

Showrunners can choose to not interact with fans, though. Adam doesn't have to do Twitter, but he does. The baffling thing is the interviews, though—the place where A&E should supposedly have their shit together—because their interview answers actually seem to muddle their own canon even worse than their responses on Twitter. As someone who's trying to learn as much about the behind-the-scenes television writing process as possible, it's nearly just as good learning what not to do from this show as it is from more successful writers rooms or showrunners.

[Camera One]

Quote

because their interview answers actually seem to muddle their own canon even worse than their responses on Twitter.

That could be because they don't know the interview questions beforehand and have to come up with a response out of the blue.  Those are probably the situations where you find out *truly* what/how they think.  Though they might have come up with some BS beforehand, like "Year of the Snowing".   I mean, seriously, is there some alternate universe version of the show we're not watching?

Edited November 6, 2016 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

23 minutes ago, Camera One said:

That could be because they don't know the interview questions beforehand and have to come up with a response out of the blue.  Those are probably the situations where you find out *truly* what/how they think.  Though they might have come up with some BS beforehand, like "Year of the Snowing".   I mean, seriously, is there some alternate universe version of the show we're not watching?

In a year with four seasons, only one season gets snow in general. Maybe that's what Adam meant. At most we can expect to get 5 episodes with some degree of focus on Snowing in a 22-epsidoe arc. ;-) 

[Camera One]

And by "some degree of focus", we mean "The Count of Pointless Cristo" where the main emotional focus is Regina.

[Curio]

32 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Those are probably the situations where you find out *truly* what/how they think.

 

Well, that is how we got this gem: "There's just so many people that it's like, it's sometimes hard to do that story and sacrifice Regina's story. That's just showbiz."

[Camera One]

Breaking News:  "Dead of Summer" was cancelled.  Now, A&E can spend more time on the mother ship.

http://www.thewrap.com/dead-of-summer-canceled-by-freeform-after-1-season/

http://www.ew.com/article/2016/11/08/dead-summer-canceled

http://variety.com/2016/tv/news/freeform-cancels-dead-of-summer-1201913108/

Edited November 9, 2016 by Camera One

[Curio]

To the surprise of no one. Well, except maybe A&E.

[Camera One]

Diana ‏@imevoni  Nov 7
@JaneEspenson We have seen every episode, we love the cast and the stories. Love the storyline of Regina vs her evil Queen half.

Jane Espenson Verified account ‏@JaneEspenson
@imevoni Thank you!  Oh, wait till you see what's coming up!  I love those two and their stories.

[Souris]

Wasn't sure exactly where to put this, but the S6 screen time chart through 6x08. Ye-owtch! Once Upon a Regina indeed! 

[tri4335]

9 minutes ago, Souris said:

Wasn't sure exactly where to put this, but the S6 screen time chart through 6x08. Ye-owtch! Once Upon a Regina indeed! 

Quote

 

The metric I would like to know is how much is really "active" screen time compared to just being in the scene. This season seems very heavy on everyone being in the scene but only one or two actors interacting like the standing around watching Snow and Charming in this episode. Regina saying nothing during the breakfast scene with Snow and Henry going to school etc. Maybe this has been going on the whole series but since I find this season very ho-hum I'm noticing it more.

[AnotherCastle]

Quote

The audience doesn’t know where we’re headed with Belle and Rumple. But no matter how dark things get, the show doesn’t go bleak. It’s still about hope, and it is always darkest before the dawn.

-Adam Horowitz

The mind boggles.

[Souris]

11 minutes ago, AnotherCastle said:

-Adam Horowitz

The mind boggles.

The screencap of Ausiello on the video looks like he's side-eyeing that comment so hard.

"The show doesn't go bleak." HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAsob.

[Mathius]

I cannot believe the level of delusion these twats have.  

And only a minority of viewers even WANTS Rumbelle back together again at this point.  If they get back together, it's endorsing abuse, period.

Edited November 14, 2016 by Mathius

[Rumsy4]

That's an old spoiler though. I'm sure it was just the sop A&E were feeding everyone before SDCC. 

[AnotherCastle]

According to Matt Mitovich it's new:

[Rumsy4]

Oops. My mistake. My god...

[Free]

On 11/9/2016 at 0:18 AM, Camera One said:

Breaking News:  "Dead of Summer" was cancelled.  Now, A&E can spend more time on the mother ship.

http://www.thewrap.com/dead-of-summer-canceled-by-freeform-after-1-season/

http://www.ew.com/article/2016/11/08/dead-summer-canceled

http://variety.com/2016/tv/news/freeform-cancels-dead-of-summer-1201913108/

I don't see much of a difference whether or not they return tbh.  I'm not surprised their show got cancelled though.

55 minutes ago, Mathius said:

I cannot believe the level of delusion these twats have.  

And only a minority of viewers even WANTS Rumbelle back together again at this point.  If they get back together, it's endorsing abuse, period.

I really don't see the point of them stringing the remaining Rumbelle fans along if he's going to continue this nonsense, no one and especially not even the fans hating on him enjoy watching this.

 

2 hours ago, tri4335 said:

The metric I would like to know is how much is really "active" screen time compared to just being in the scene. This season seems very heavy on everyone being in the scene but only one or two actors interacting like the standing around watching Snow and Charming in this episode. Regina saying nothing during the breakfast scene with Snow and Henry going to school etc. Maybe this has been going on the whole series but since I find this season very ho-hum I'm noticing it more.

It's even more noticeable that there's less going on than their usual messy arcs, it's flat out boring and then you have characters like EQ and Rumple acting like Saturday Morning cartoon villain caricatures.

[icewolf]

I think some viewers are just sick of this Evil Regina plot. Just one of her is too much at times, two is channel switching for some. It was a bad idea to focus a dozen episodes (full season?) on her.

[KAOS Agent]

I think the issue is that they aren't actually focusing on her at all. She's just there all the damn time. If the Evil Queen had a purpose that the heroes were trying to stop and Regina was actually given a point of view, then the season would have focus. Instead, Regina is just kind of there and the Evil Queen wanders around town having spa days. There isn't an overarching story. It's just individual random vignettes featuring a lot of the Evil Queen.

[Rumsy4]

I agree, KAOS. The writers are treating the EQ like some random villain a la the Queens of Darkness, instead of a manifestation of Regina. They apparently just wanted to have "fun" with the campy Evil Queen, with nothing else in mind. It's so boring and repetitive.

[maryle]

Well I do believe that can be both any character if that level of exposure is at risk to become a little too much for people who are not its fans.  And the storyline for the EQ is all over the place and not focus. She can go from campy to supposedly scary in one episode. Rumple in the sneak peak was more efficient than her all season long.

I don't remember any other villain have that amount of exposure it is counterproductive and don't let space for other character or storyline.  So it become more obvious 

 But, I certainly don't want people use it as  a raison for another Regina season next year. Let's someone else shine .

[Free]

4 hours ago, icewolf said:

I think some viewers are just sick of this Evil Regina plot. Just one of her is too much at times, two is channel switching for some. It was a bad idea to focus a dozen episodes (full season?) on her.

 

3 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

I think the issue is that they aren't actually focusing on her at all. She's just there all the damn time. If the Evil Queen had a purpose that the heroes were trying to stop and Regina was actually given a point of view, then the season would have focus. Instead, Regina is just kind of there and the Evil Queen wanders around town having spa days. There isn't an overarching story. It's just individual random vignettes featuring a lot of the Evil Queen.

 

3 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

I agree, KAOS. The writers are treating the EQ like some random villain a la the Queens of Darkness, instead of a manifestation of Regina. They apparently just wanted to have "fun" with the campy Evil Queen, with nothing else in mind. It's so boring and repetitive.

It's just so poorly conceived on the writers' part, let alone focusing an entire arc on it.

[Curio]

This is totally random to the current conversation, but I stumbled upon this old quote and had a good, long laugh.

Kitsis: "Well, Graham is dead and if we brought him back, everyone would say that we are messing with continuity, so we don’t want to do that."

Quote

Wasn't sure exactly where to put this, but the S6 screen time chart through 6x08. Ye-owtch! Once Upon a Regina indeed!

 

For you stats people out there, when you disregard the minor/guest characters, Regina's screen time is a mild outlier.

Edited November 15, 2016 by Curio

[YaddaYadda]

6 minutes ago, Curio said:

This is totally random to the current conversation, but I stumbled upon this old quote and had a good, long laugh.

Kitsis: "Well, Graham is dead and if we brought him back, everyone would say that we are messing with continuity, so we don’t want to do that."

I think it should read as "we're not bringing back Graham because we just realized after fans of the show told us that Regina had been raping the man for more than 30 years, and then killed him when he broke away from her control. This is something that we might have to address and it's really uncomfortable since we have to give Regina her happy ending."

They clearly have no problem with continuity with what's about to go down in a few episodes.

[Camera One]

In "Someone needs to learn to shut up" news, Adam's latest tweet to Rumbellers:

Adam Horowitz Verified account‏@AdamHorowitzLA

@accio_zalfie it's always darkest before the dawn. We love you guys and hope you like where we go!

[YaddaYadda]

Someone needs to take Twitter away from Adam.

I wonder what he was expecting. That RBers would thank him for this? I get that the couple isn't Snowing or CS, but they've taken them too far and I don't know how you bring them back from that. I'd rather they gave them a clean break, raise their kid as divorced parents and be done with that ugliness.

[Mathius]

And again, at this point, the RBers are a minority compared to the people who would be horrified by the two getting back together after all this.

[Rumsy4]

I think we're underestimating the number of people who want Rumbelle to be together because of the baby, if nothing else. Especially in a Show that has already normalized domestic violence in Milah/Rumbelle. The minute Rumple shows his sadface, people cave.

[AnotherCastle]

Quote

I wonder what he was expecting. That RBers would thank him for this?

This is the same guy who said this rumbelle arc would be 'fun' to watch for their fans. So...

[KingOfHearts]

If the writers want Rumpbelle to be a relationship with hope, why make Rumple so irredeemably abusive? It's a similar issue with Regina - if she's supposed to be capable of good, why fill her resume with more cold-blooded murder? The writers can control what their characters do, but they can't stretch them so thin that they start becoming two contradicting personalities.

[Camera One]

The writers can control what their characters do, but they can't stretch them so thin that they start becoming two contradicting personalities.

And cue A&E talking about how this year, everyone is exploring their other "half".  Though I'm not sure how they define "everyone".