The Writers of OUAT: Because, Um, Magic, That's Why

[Mitch]

The writers don't understand the phrase, "It's about the journey, not the destination". They're constantly trying to get from Point A to Point D without giving too much thought to B or C. In 3B, they wanted to go from Missing Year/Zelena to Emma discovering home through a time travel adventure. Two very different places in the story but somehow they needed to be linked to fit their agenda. So how did they do it? Well, Zelena's plot to travel in time was ridiculously hokey, filled with plot holes, and was a curious alternative to the hundreds of other ways she could have gotten what she wanted. Emma's arc was also just as contrived. Instead of exploring the reasons why she should or shouldn't stay in Storybrooke, all we saw was Emma complaining and everyone else giving her the stares. You could tell the writers had no interest in anything that happened in 3B between the beginning and the end, except for Zelena's random centrics that had little to do with her endgame.

 

 

So true! The writers are best when they stick with a simple concept and carry that out, which, they haven't done since S1 (There is a curse, it needs to be broken, the villains are Regina, who doesnt want it broken, and Rump who doees for his own selfish needs...period.) But each season and arc they try to make things more complicated and it just gets dumber and dumber and there is no space for character development as in S1 as they are chasing their tail around to keep things moving.

 

I think the Wicked arc had the potential to bring us back. to a simple concept which would allow character growth, but they had to throw in Zelena being Cora's daughter and jeaolous of Regina and in LURVE with Rump so she wants to go back in time. Why the show didnt just stick to...Zelena is the Wicked Witch of the West, no intro needed or connnection to anyone else, she was defeated by Dorothy and Glinda and the Ozites, but instead of dying she makes a desperate escape to the EF. Once there she finds easy pickings as Cora told us, the idiots of the EF need a leader , and after the Curse broke and Cora left, there was power gap and no one to lead the idiots of oppose her so she took over. Once settled in she finds Snow, Charming and Regina return in time to stop her..and once again in defeat she, like Regina before her, casts  the Curse to take them to a more even playing field....(i.e. no one knows who she is in our world, I personally would have made their be none to very little magic in SB, they never explained how SB got magic again )So we could focus on Snow and Charming and Regina forming an uneasy alliance in the EF to fight their mutual enemy and through that Regina and Snow settle the past once and for all and we move on with the present being a bit of the same, but with Emma and her parents (and Emma and Regina) finally making their peace and putting the past behind them.

 

But instead we get convoluted jumps to connnect Zelena to Regina and Rump, and in doing so making Rump again look stupid for not figuring out how to jump worlds...(i.e. an unexplained tornado vortex  comes our of nowhere and drops baby Zelena  unharmed in Oz,)

and glossing over of the meat of the story, how the Charmings and Regina finally dealt with each other and created a kind of peace, and how the Storybrookers felt about being back in their dumpy medeival world again.  The second or third episode of that arc jumped to a boring Charming centric, which introduced Zelena's convoluted plan, and all of a sudden Regina is cozy with the Charmings living in the castle together , and in present time Emma is the savior again but bitching about it but doing nothing else...WHAT????

 

They always bite off more then they can chew while patting themselves on the back for their creativity..."Oh look, we made Zelena and Regina sisters though we had to jump through hoops to do so and totally disregard everythign else that came before....that really ups the drama."

Edited January 29, 2016 by Mitch

[Camera One]

The Writers are addicted to bending over backwards and retconning like crazy to tie new characters to the existing ones via flashbacks.  Thus, the completely unnecessary linkage of Zelena to Rumple and the Mills family.  Ditto for ramming Maleficent into Snowing's backstory, Anna into Charming's backstory, etc.  For me, many of the stronger centrics have been the ones where they just tell the story of the guest without unnecessary intrusions from the main cast, like Ingrid's backstory, or Merlin and Nimue's or Cruella's.  Oops, I spoke too soon... I just remembered Merida.  

[KingOfHearts]

 

For me, many of the stronger centrics have been the ones where they just tell the story of the guest without unnecessary intrusions from the main cast, like Ingrid's backstory, or Merlin and Nimue's or Cruella's.  Oops, I spoke too soon... I just remembered Merida.

I agree, I don't think the characters need to be directly linked to the guests in order to for them to have meaningful interactions. I'm happy with the "let's take the main cast to x land" formula we've seen in 3A and 5A because unlike with Arendelle and Oz, whatever happens is relevant to the mains because they're in it themselves. Neverland did a marvelous job at getting them out of their comfort zones, but put too much effort into connecting backstories. They could have instead shown more of the island and what went on there. Papa Pan and the Home Office both felt like pretty desperate links. Camelot, on the other hand, worked so well that Storybrooke wasn't even necessary until the last act. 

 

The Underworld continues that idea, which makes me happy.

[Camera One]

I too like seeing the main cast in another world, but the Writers too often just have them standing around doing nothing but repeat exposition or stupidly waiting to react and put out fires without character development.  That's one of the biggest writing crimes for me, though it's not restricted to this show.  A plot which requires the characters to be dumber than doorknobs in order to make it work.

[Curio]

Along with the characters not being allowed to have realistic reactions, the other weird thing that affects the relationships is that everyone has to be on the same page in most cases. It's like Stepford characters.

 

I think the creators are staying too rigid to their original vision of the show, and it's beginning to negatively impact the relationships between the characters. Instead of feeling like living and breathing people with unique personalities, the characters are like wooden puppets on strings who are forced to do what the writers say. Granted, that's what writing is, but television is such a constantly changing and collaborative process where the characters need to take on a life of their own in order to stay true to their personalities. The same issue happened with How I Met Your Mother, but at least on that show, the writers seemed to allow their characters to grow organically beyond their original vision of the pilot episode, only for them to throw a nuclear bomb on all that progress in the finale. So I don't know what's worse...the HIMYM situation where the audience actually gets to witness the characters grow organically, only for the creators to hit the reset button during the finale to their original vision, or the OUAT situation where the audience is forced to watch the reset button happen every single half arc, but at least we're not fooled into thinking something realistic is going to happen.

 

Going back to the idea of all the characters having to be on the same page, I automatically think of Operation Mongoose and how bizarre it was that everyone was on the same page with: 1) believing the author was a real person, and 2) giving Regina her happy ending wrapped in a big red bow. Before Season 4 began, I image the writers sat down and outlined how 4B would be the arc where "the main cast comes together and they all work as a team to give Regina her happy ending." So no matter what happened in Seasons 1-3—and especially 4A—come hell or high water, the writers were going to make their thesis statement come true. But by doing that, they had to throw out a lot of relationship progress just so they could get to the plot they wanted to tell in 4B.

 

4B would have been a lot more interesting if the writers were able to put themselves into the shoes of their characters and think about how the characters would realistically react to Operation Dumbass. Would Emma honestly be all cheery and say "Okay! I'm totally on board Operation Mongoose!" literally the same night she almost witnessed her boyfriend's death and discovered Belle was heartbroken? Even though there was no iota of evidence proving there was an actual author in existence and Regina had just made Emma's life hell for the entire half season up until that point? Would Hook honestly be on board with Regina's plan since he, you know...was a villain who actually found his happy ending without needing an author? Why wasn't Hook allowed to be antagonistic towards Operation Mongoose? Wouldn't that have created some interesting dynamics between the group?

 

Instead of the egg baby nonsense, why couldn't we have continued with the conflict that was already set up in 4A with Emma's parents being wary about her magic? Why couldn't Graham's death come to the light while Emma was working so hard to find Regina's happy ending? Wouldn't that have created some interesting and organic conflict between the characters? 

 

The writers are so good at setting up potentially interesting relationship dynamics, and then drop those ideas entirely in favor of the pre-planned arc they developed during their annual summer brainstorm session.

[Camera One]

It's Friday.  We need a joke from Adam.

 

Dr.Anthro 
@AdamHorowitzLA what was the most difficult episode for you to write on Once?

 

Adam Horowitz ‏@AdamHorowitzLA  Jan 27
@way2distracted probably the pilot.  Took almost ten years!

 

Once Upon A Thing ‏@onceuponabs  Jan 28
@AdamHorowitzLA @way2distracted 10 years to master 1 episode (or even 1 season, I'll give you that),

 

Adam Horowitz ‏@AdamHorowitzLA  Jan 28
@onceuponabs @way2distracted it wasn't ten years for one episode. It was 10 yrs to create entire template for series. Still using that work

 

--

 

They have a "template" for the series?  By template, do they mean a cookie cutter they impose on every season and episode, or an actual long-range plan?

[Free]

It's Friday.  We need a joke from Adam.

 

Dr.Anthro 

@AdamHorowitzLA what was the most difficult episode for you to write on Once?

 

Adam Horowitz ‏@AdamHorowitzLA  Jan 27

@way2distracted probably the pilot.  Took almost ten years!

 

Once Upon A Thing ‏@onceuponabs  Jan 28

@AdamHorowitzLA @way2distracted 10 years to master 1 episode (or even 1 season, I'll give you that),

 

Adam Horowitz ‏@AdamHorowitzLA  Jan 28

@onceuponabs @way2distracted it wasn't ten years for one episode. It was 10 yrs to create entire template for series. Still using that work

 

--

 

They have a "template" for the series?  By template, do they mean a cookie cutter they impose on every season and episode, or an actual long-range plan?

 

Even if they did have an outline, too many things have changed over the series to even believe that it was properly planned out because it clearly wasn't, especially coming the start of the series to the series now.

[YaddaYadda]

Frozen didn't exist when they were outlining their thing, or when the pilot aired. So that's already something that was not "planned".

[KingOfHearts]

Does he mean the premise for the series and a basic understanding of how their multiverse would work? (Emphasis on basic.)

Edited January 30, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

If you're outlining your show for 10 years, how do you not know how the Dark One curse works?

 

I think one of the most disappointing things for me in 5A was how forward I was looking to the whole Dark One mythology, and I feel let down by it. It's a bunch of voices which fine because there are two instances where I remember Rumple saying he'll stop hearing the voices the day he dies. 

 

But everything else? Why wasn't Hook all sparkly? And are there several levels of darkness? Does someone become a full on Dark One when they've killed someone? Because Emma didn't kill anyone, but Hook did, or does that not count because it's Nimue who killed Merlin using Hook to do it?

 

And didn't Rumple hear the dagger whisper to him like Emma did in 5x11? I mean he is technically a former Dark One who survived, Emma isn't unique in that.

 

Did Rumple retain his seer powers since those are independent of his Dark One powers?

 

And shouldn't it be what one chooses how they use their powers? I still have a huge problem with the whole Emma healed Robin which is a good thing, but she liked her powers so much that the TLK failed.

 

If I start a list, I think I'll end up with a 99 questions, or more like 99 problems because none of this really adds up for me.

[Camera One]

Well, clearly, they can't even plan for half a season, much less multiple seasons.

 

Now that we know Emma's plan and how she was still mostly moral, what was her goal in Storybrooke in "The Price" when the Furies came back for Robin?  Was she okay with Robin being dragged to Hell?  Did she want Regina dragged to Hell?  Oh right, did she have so much confidence in Regina that she knew she would pull through and everyone would hold hands to ensure Robin and Regina were saved?  

 

And what took the Furies so long?  They were taking their sweet time because...?  How did Emma know the Furies were coming?  Why are the Furies so frick'in stupid?  Can they use that method every time someone dies?  

[Curio]

They have a "template" for the series?  By template, do they mean a cookie cutter they impose on every season and episode, or an actual long-range plan?

Does he mean the premise for the series and a basic understanding of how their multiverse would work? (Emphasis on basic.)

I'm guessing Adam & Eddy's "template" for the series is extremely basic broad strokes and includes major milestones leading up to the series finale. Season 1 was probably the only season where nearly all 22 episodes were completely planned out and fine-tuned for years. But everything after that has had to be flexible enough to include things like random filler episodes, a Wonderland spin-off, a Frozen-themed season, and the ability to completely throw away a storyline like the Home Office. Where their "broad strokes" aren't flexible include major season arcs like Woegina's Redemption Tour, Emma calling Storybrooke home, and Emma finding True Love.

I would assume that Adam & Eddy have some major milestones they want to hit, and those are the things they developed over those 10 years, but they're also open to making Season 6 Aladdin-themed just in case Aladdin happens to do well on Broadway and Disney wants to cash in on that synergy. This might be close to what their 10-year "template" looks like:

• Season 1: Regina casts a curse and creates Storybrooke. Emma comes to town after her son finds her in the real world and breaks the curse. Snow and Charming's love story is told in flashbacks. Graham is killed as a major mid-season shocker.
• Season 2: Everyone learns about their Enchanted Forest personalities. We are both. Finally the stupid legal issues are over with and we can introduce Captain Hook. We need to force everyone to get on board Woegina's Redemption Tour. Let's introduce Science vs. Magic. Oh right, let's throw Neal in for good measure.
• Season 3: Emma and Regina need love interests. Emma needs to continue her Hero's Journey and have a taste of real life without worrying about being a Savior. Emma also needs to buy into Storybrooke as her real home.
• Season 4-???: Let's just stall and keep introducing random Disney entities until we get closer to the final season. Throughout this run, we should probably touch on our mythology and lore by finding out who wrote the book and what being the Dark One entails. Oh, and we need to give Regina a happy ending.  Emma still needs to suffer until the series finale.
• Final Season: Emma and Rumple finally come to blows as the most powerful magicians in all the realms. Rumple is finally defeated, but is able to redeem himself at the last second by apologizing to Belle. Again. Emma takes her rightful place as Mysthaven's democratically-elected ruler. And because we're Adam & Eddy, we need to add a note about giving Regina something super extra special and shiny as a prize because her curse was our original concept.

Edited January 30, 2016 by Curio

[Camera One]

LOL at this one:

 

Carlos Soto ‏@dontknowbest  1 hour ago

@AdamHorowitzLA also, how did he appear to Emma in the movie theatre if he was stuck as a tree in Camelot?

 

Adam Horowitz ‏@AdamHorowitzLA  1 hour ago
@dontknowbest great question!

[KingOfHearts]

 

LOL at this one:

Find out on another episode of Offscreenville, where this burning question and more will be answered!

 

 

I'm guessing Adam & Eddy's "template" for the series is extremely basic broad strokes and includes major milestones leading up to the series finale. Season 1 was probably the only season where nearly all 22 episodes were completely planned out and fine-tuned for years

I believe elements of S2 were planned out from the beginning or close to it. Neal, Cora and Regina's redemption all seemed part of their master plan. Everything else is anything goes, though.

Edited January 30, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Free]

Well, clearly, they can't even plan for half a season, much less multiple seasons.

 

They can't even handle arcs that are mostly self contained except for a cliffhanger at the end.

 

I believe elements of S2 were planned out from the beginning or close to it. Neal, Cora and Regina's redemption all seemed part of their master plan. Everything else is anything goes, though.

 

Definitely, but I do think S2 had many of the major changes like Tamara/Greg/Home Office, getting Neverland rights, etc.

[Faemonic]

By template, I figured they mean: character of the centric is acting badly, flashback to character of the centric acting not as badly, flashforward to character of the centric acting not as badly, flashback to whose fault it was that the character acted badly, flashforward to character realizing that they should act good.

Although the pilot was more about setting-events flashbacks than character centrics. If the most consistent and intense focus has been on a very specific sort of psychology, then maybe good characterization wasn't the inspiring thing?

 

 

I can also see the general idea was in the works: The Evil Queen from Snow White casts a Fairy Tale Domestic Alternate Universe curse that baby Anna (changed to Emma) was supposed to break when she grew up. Evil Queen is secretly sympathetic because she watched her first boyfriend die at the hands of her social-climbing magical mother. Rumpelstiltskin's son is Emma's babydaddy.

 

 

Most things outside of that, I'd say they didn't want to define in case they wrote themselves into a corner: the realms frozen in time like where the Darlings lived or Cruella, Mr. Gold's first name, the laws of magic including Dark One lore, and everybody's character development after the cursebreak. Or maybe they just prefer to make things happen on the page or on the screen instead of thinking through really subverting the meaning of Good versus Evil or authorial powers over fairy tale characters.

 

 

If they'd decided to incorporate the Home Office even ten years before season one, it might have gone either the way of Gargoyles (good fusion) or the fourth season of Buffy the Vampire Slayer (maybe less successful fusion.) People already didn't like the genre shifting, so, fine, tapdance away from the Home Office anti-magic tech. Frozen became more popular than expected? Get a note from the Powers The Be to stick the shiny new brand in there, or maybe they watched the movie and just want to because there's so much room for that. Tapdance how.

[Amerilla]

They have a "template" for the series?  By template, do they mean a cookie cutter they impose on every season and episode, or an actual long-range plan?

 

I would say that "template" primarily means the current time/flashback format. That's really the constant.

 

How much of the plot is predetermined? They plotted out the first season and they've said many times that they know the final scene of the series - which means they know approximately where they want they want Emma, Snowing, Regina and Rumpel to end up. I think Rumpel's permanent, redeemed finale death is a given. Knowing how these guys roll at this point, the finale scene is probably going to callback to Snowing's wedding scene, with Regina sweeping into Emma and Hook's wedding, this time to wish them a happily ever after. 

 

Most of Emma's emotional beats feel pretty pre-planned at this point. I think her time-travel back to the EF was always in the long-range plans, as was Dark Swan. Those are things they don't have to know the details of the rest of the plot to add in - i.e., Emma could have gone back in time with Neal or Belle or Ruby or Happy and the basic concept would be the same. Dark Swan would have worked if they had gone Swanfire instead of CS. Other characters are definitely the victims of seat-of-their-pants, throw-a-dart-at-a-dartboard plotting.

[Rumsy4]

Outline:
Season 1: The daughter of Snow White and Prince Charming breaks the Evil Queen's Dark Curse by True Love's Kiss with son.

 

Season 2: Emma goes to the Enchanted Forest and bonds with her mother. Introduce Love interest(s) for Emma and antagonist for Rumpelstiltskin. Regina is a poor misunderstood victim.

 

Season 3: Emma Swan accepts Storybrooke as Home. Regina is a poor misunderstood saint.

 

Season 4: Emma Swan accepts her magic; makes friends. Emma sacrifices herself for bff Regina's Happy Ending.

 

Season 5: Emma Swan goes Dark; fully embraces romantic love. Regina is a goddess.

Edited January 31, 2016 by Rumsy4

[Shanna Marie]

Before Season 4 began, I image the writers sat down and outlined how 4B would be the arc where "the main cast comes together and they all work as a team to give Regina her happy ending." So no matter what happened in Seasons 1-3—and especially 4A—come hell or high water, the writers were going to make their thesis statement come true. But by doing that, they had to throw out a lot of relationship progress just so they could get to the plot they wanted to tell in 4B.

I don't think the issue with 4B had anything to do with any development that happened in seasons 1-3. There's no point at which the other characters' reactions to Operation Dumbass make any sense for them, whether as originally established or in the way they've evolved. Based on what we know about them, their experiences, and the way they act in other situations, it's far more realistic that Snow would have given Regina a speech along the lines of "a happy ending isn't about good things happening to you. It's about finding the good in the things that happen to you. And besides, books have endings. Life goes on, and as long as you have life, you have hope." David might have muttered something about her life being pretty good compared to her victims, which might have earned him an elbow in the ribs from Snow. Henry would have said something like, "But that's not the way the book works. It just tells what happened. It doesn't make things happen." Emma's our real-world representative, so she'd have laughed herself silly at the idea of a book dictating anyone's fate. She never would have taken that seriously. Hook's a bit fatalistic and has that guilt trip going on, so he might have worried about villains not getting happy endings, not because of some mystical power in a book, but rather because bad choices tend to have bad consequences, and old consequences from your past don't go away just because you've started to change.

 

I suspect one reason the scene in which the rest of the characters learned the outcome of Operation Dumbass had to take place in Offscreenville was that it would be impossible to write it without making everyone look like an idiot. "Hey, everyone! You know that thing we've been working on about finding the Author so I could have a happy ending? You're never going to believe this, but it turns out that I write my own happy ending! I never needed the Author at all. Oh, and I gave him the magic ink he needed and he's working for Gold now." It sounds like a speech written for Richard on Galavant, but he's supposed to be an idiot, and you know all the other characters would have been rolling their eyes at a plan that stupid.

 

What's insane about the writing of the arc is that they showed that Regina was wrong in multiple ways, but that was never actually acknowledged and treated as it all being a bad idea. She was right about the fact that there was an Author with the power to alter reality. But he was forbidden to do so (so why did he have that power?) and was punished when he did so. Which means the whole quest they were on was wrong, and if the Author had done what they wanted, he would have been in trouble. Plus, it turned out that the Author had absolutely nothing to do with the bad things Regina did and had nothing to do with her outcome. The people he did mess with were Snow and Charming because he was trying to stop heroes from winning. So, all the moaning about her not being allowed to win because of the book and the Author was totally wrong, and all along it was Snow and Charming who'd been harmed by the Author's actions.

 

If they wanted a story line in which everyone worked together to help Regina get a happy ending, they should have done a My Name is Earl routine with the book, where Regina found all the things she'd done wrong, and the others helped her try to set things right.

[Curio]

It appears A&E have already been working in the writers room for their summer TV show "Dead of Summer" for a few weeks now.

 

My question is: how much is it going to affect this show? I know they worked a bit on the Wonderland spin-off, but I felt like the other writers on that show (I think Espensen had a large role) were more in charge than Adam & Eddy. With this brand new show on a completely different channel, they seem to have much more important roles in the writers room.

 

You'd think that with how many plot holes Once already has, spreading their time and creativity thin could spell disaster. But...somehow...I think this might end up being a good thing for this show in the long run. Maybe A&E being too distracted on their side project means one of the more detail-oriented writers in the Once room will take on a bigger role and fix some of the current issues A&E tend to not care about. Or it could be the exact opposite. (Maybe 4B was so terrible because that was the season A&E were working on developing their pitch for "Dead of Summer.")

Edited February 17, 2016 by Curio

[YaddaYadda]

I'm sure A&E will be back to writing the finale, but I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing they're not so hands on with Once.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I'm sure A&E will be back to writing the finale, but I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing they're not so hands on with Once.

If 5B is somehow better between the premiere and the finale, we'll know why. ;)

[Faemonic]

...it's far more realistic that Snow would have given Regina a speech along the lines of "a happy ending isn't about good things happening to you. It's about finding the good in the things that happen to you. And besides, books have endings. Life goes on, and as long as you have life, you have hope." David might have muttered something about her life being pretty good compared to her victims, which might have earned him an elbow in the ribs from Snow. Henry would have said something like, "But that's not the way the book works. It just tells what happened. It doesn't make things happen." Emma's our real-world representative, so she'd have laughed herself silly at the idea of a book dictating anyone's fate. She never would have taken that seriously.

 

Hook's a bit fatalistic and has that guilt trip going on, so he might have worried about villains not getting happy endings, not because of some mystical power in a book, but rather because bad choices tend to have bad consequences, and old consequences from your past don't go away just because you've started to change.

 

...the writing of the arc is that they showed that Regina was wrong in multiple ways, but that was never actually acknowledged and treated as it all being a bad idea.

I guess that's the difference between conflict and counternarrative.

 

Conflict goes: Joe Campbellson is a simple villager with a good heart who some herald told to "go kill that dragon". Joe Chosen One Campbellson does the thing, still has a good heart, goes back home. The dragon was the conflict.

 

But Counternarrative goes: Joe Campbellson is a simple dissatisfied villager who dreams of doing something dramatic and heroic. Herald says "go kill that dragon", so Joe the Chosen One goes. He finds out he doesn't like violence, that swordfighting is haaard, but it's worth it for the peace that comes after. He finds out that he's uncomfortable with being famous. He returns home to his simple village. (Or, Joe Campbellson is a pacifistic simple villager who always does what he's told. Dragon quest comes, and he ends up learning to swordfight and take command of organized armies and become a king.)

 

There's a lot that possibly makes a Mary Sue: that we're unused to women in starring roles and possessed of any distinguishing traits (so Anakin is a mechanical wizard and winning racer at 9 years old but Rey is somehow the Mary Sue), or misaimed audience like with how fanfiction readers expect to read about their favorite canon characters instead of who is this even (so there's supposedly no such thing as a canon Sue), but I consider the lack of counternarrative to be at least one of the main factors. There's something like conflict supposed to keep the story interesting, but the love of the Author protects a character from ever encountering true conflict and (importantly) growing from it.

 

Snow's conflict: The Evil Queen blames and hates me. Also, she has magic powers that can tell the laws of physics to sit down and shut up.

Snow's personal narrative: I want to be guided by love.

Snow's counternarrative: There's no such thing as love, Regina hated Leopold and Snow the whole time she was part of their family. Also, Regina killed a village because Snow thought all she needed was to vent her anger. Love guided me to this?!

Snow's personal narrative II: There's no such thing as love, there's only hopelessness and vengeance.

Snow's counternarrative II: But damn that David is fiiine...

 

Daddy Charming's conflict: I just wanted a child, but something always gets in the way...

Daddy Charming's personal narrative: Dutiful though idealistic son, lover, fighter, gonna be the best dad ever. For honor!

Daddy Charming's counternarrative: But he's honorbound to Katherine/Abigail when his heart leads him to Mary Margaret! But he's compelled to make some inspiring speech with barely any hope or inspiration himself! But Emma's all grown up now, we've failed her!

 

Regina's conflict: Always the victim.

Regina's personal narrative: Always the victim.

Regina's counternarrative: Zzz...hgnuk, uh, wait, did personal narrative say something? I swear, I'm paying attention this time.

Regina's conflict: (Just sleep off your hangover, counternarrative. I've got this. As usual.) Always the victim.

(Regina's conflict does not got this.)

Edited February 18, 2016 by Faemonic

[Free]

It appears A&E have already been working in the writers room for their summer TV show "Dead of Summer" for a few weeks now.

 

My question is: how much is it going to affect this show? I know they worked a bit on the Wonderland spin-off, but I felt like the other writers on that show (I think Espensen had a large role) were more in charge than Adam & Eddy. With this brand new show on a completely different channel, they seem to have much more important roles in the writers room.

 

You'd think that with how many plot holes Once already has, spreading their time and creativity thin could spell disaster. But...somehow...I think this might end up being a good thing for this show in the long run. Maybe A&E being too distracted on their side project means one of the more detail-oriented writers in the Once room will take on a bigger role and fix some of the current issues A&E tend to not care about. Or it could be the exact opposite. (Maybe 4B was so terrible because that was the season A&E were working on developing their pitch for "Dead of Summer.")

 

I'm not as sure, unless OuaT actually has a major shift in direction, it's most likely the same within the writing staff.

[Camera One]

It probably writes on auto-pilot by this point.

[KingOfHearts]

 

It probably writes on auto-pilot by this point.

Well when the story formula is so cookie cutter, it really doesn't take much time to play Mad Libs, roll the slot machine, and see what random characters/plot elements we'll see next. 

[Shanna Marie]

Thinking more on the conflict issue and some things I've been discussing in the Regina thread, conflict seems to be one of their biggest problems, especially with the Operation Idiocy storyline, but also for the writing for Regina in general. Conflict is the basis of drama in fiction. The most basic formula for drama is "a character wants something, and there are opposing forces getting in the way." Sometimes that can be someone else wanting the same thing, but it only really works in a zero-sum game, where the one who gets it gets all the marbles, so it still amounts to something getting in the way. But look at the Operation Idiocy plot:

 

Regina: I want to find the Author so I can have a happy ending.

All the other good guys (at least, the ones who get to say anything about it): That's a great idea! We'll help you!

Rumple and the Queens of Darkness: That's a great idea! We want happy endings, too! We'll help you!

(that only became a zero-sum game from the good guys' perspective because they didn't want Rumple to get there first. The bad guys didn't seem to be doing anything to stop Regina from getting it)

The Author: I've always liked you, and I'm fed up with heroes winning. Get me the ink, and I'll help you!

Regina: Wow, it turns out nobody was actually stopping me from getting a happy ending!

 

No conflict=a story that's dead on arrival. No wonder they had to throw in the eggbaby stuff and the worry about Emma turning dark. That was the only real source of conflict or tension in the arc. You can't write a story for a character who's not allowed to encounter actual opposition.

 

Although the Dark Swan arc wasn't brilliant writing, it did at least put conflict in the way of the protagonist.

Emma: I want to get this darkness out of me and destroy it forever before it destroys me.

Head Rumple, Head Nimue, and the Dark Ones in general: Oh, no you don't! We have plans! Surrender to the darkness and enjoy your power

Arthur: I have my own plans for that power. I'll get Merlin under my control so I can get the dagger and the flame and restore Excalibur.

Zelena: Let me help you with that, Art. I'll tie Merlin to the sword for you so you can attack those losers.

Regina: You can't use your magic, Emma, or else you'll go dark. Unless I need you to save my boyfriend.

 

And then when it morphed into Dark Hook:

Emma: I'm going to get the Darkness out of both Hook and myself, hopefully before he figures out what's going on

Arthur: I don't want you to know what I've been up to, so I'll get in the way

Rumple: But I don't want to be a hero and draw that sword for you

Merida: I can't make him into a hero

Zelena: Hey, Hook, here's what's going on. I bet you're really pissed at Emma now, right?

Hook: Sorry, love, you made me this way, you're stuck with it. And I hate you.

Nimue: I have plans, and I need the pirate to carry them out. Also, your whole family.

Emma's family: You can't kill Zelena!!! You have to find another way!

Hook: You can stop the darkness, but you have to kill me. And I'm myself again and I love you.

 

So, lots of conflict and opposition, which means struggle, which means drama. It's writing 101.

[Curio]

Thinking more on the conflict issue and some things I've been discussing in the Regina thread, conflict seems to be one of their biggest problems, especially with the Operation Idiocy storyline, but also for the writing for Regina in general. Conflict is the basis of drama in fiction.

 

I wish I could read some transcripts of the writers discussing how to plot out 4B and Operation Dumbass, just so I can see where things went wrong. Did not a single writer bring up the idea that someone should oppose Regina's plan to find the author? And not in the way that Rumple was opposing her (because he believed in her stupid idea and wanted it for himself), but someone who actually used logic and said, "Wait a minute. I don't think I believe in an author who predetermines our fate. Predestination sucks, I'm not on board with this plan." No one in the writer's room brought up the fact that the entire plot to "Poor Unfortunate Soul" contradicts the thesis statement for 4B? Just having one character—like Hook, who already found his happy ending without an author—bringing up the idea that finding the author isn't the best way to go about Operation Dumbass would have been enough conflict to last for a good portion of the story arc. Ariel might have convinced Hook to help Ursula find her happy ending the right way, but then he never applied that lesson to Regina's situation. Or were things already so out of control with Zelena when he learned that lesson that it didn't even matter?

 

(I guess none of 4B matters in hindsight because finding the author didn't even bring about Regina's happy ending...common sense and Emma's car did that.)

Edited February 19, 2016 by Curio

[Faemonic]

Conflict is the basis of drama in fiction. The most basic formula for drama is "a character wants something, and there are opposing forces getting in the way." Sometimes that can be someone else wanting the same thing, but it only really works in a zero-sum game, where the one who gets it gets all the marbles, so it still amounts to something getting in the way. But look at the Operation Idiocy plot:

 

Regina: I want to find the Author so I can have a happy ending.

All the other good guys (at least, the ones who get to say anything about it): That's a great idea! We'll help you!

Rumple and the Queens of Darkness: That's a great idea! We want happy endings, too! We'll help you!

(that only became a zero-sum game from the good guys' perspective because they didn't want Rumple to get there first. The bad guys didn't seem to be doing anything to stop Regina from getting it)

The Author: I've always liked you, and I'm fed up with heroes winning. Get me the ink, and I'll help you!

Regina: Wow, it turns out nobody was actually stopping me from getting a happy ending!

 

No conflict=a story that's dead on arrival. No wonder they had to throw in the eggbaby stuff and the worry about Emma turning dark. That was the only real source of conflict or tension in the arc. You can't write a story for a character who's not allowed to encounter actual opposition.

I still see conflict, though. Regina wants to find the Author. Obstacle: the Author is missing. Both the Charmings and Team Queenstiltkin may have been willing to rally around Regina to find the Author, but not to help each other, so Regina could be conflicted about balancing them while she was double agent...ing. Once they found the Author, he had no ink, so there's a MacGuffin quest that puts more time and effort between Regina and what she wants.

 

It may not be a people-with-motives obstacle, it might come off as just the Universe pointing and going "haw haw" exactly like she thought, but it is still something that gets in the way.

 

And then ink had to be from Savior Magic Turned Dark, which Regina actively prevented despite that being a necessary ingredient to her Happy End. Because Emma was her frr...because Emma was Regina's frrie...because Emma was the sheriff. So, Regina had to haul her heels all the way to the bus stop to poke Lily instead. When she found out that rewriting her story wasn't what she wanted at all, it's like Frodo stood at the edge of the volcano and had the sudden epiphany that all he ever wanted in life was the pipe-weed in Sam's pocket, like, here ya go Gollum whatever. But Regina had to walk, too...

That it's all external, catch-and-release conflicts might be another reason that these conflicts don't come off as conflicts. Conflicts are transformative, but, as you've kept pointing out, even if These Writers adore Regina as a person instead of a character or storytelling tool, she's somehow not allowed to react and process in any realistic-person way. Which would have been fine if This Show were advertised as escapist power fantasy fulfillment, but the point I was sold on was Fairy Tale Characters In The Realistic Real World.

[Shanna Marie]

I tend to think of "conflict" and "obstacles" as different things. An obstacle isn't really a force acting against a character. It's just a speedbump. It creates a mini-goal within the big-picture story goal. So Regina's big-picture goal is to get the Author to write her a happy ending, and the first step is to find the Author. Next step is to get the ink. I don't really see "but it's haaaaaard" as a conflict. Conflict to me is more of an opposing force trying to keep the character from achieving a goal, acting against the character. In that storyline, nothing's really acting against Regina. The most she has is some internal conflict when he has some guilt and qualms about what she's doing to Pinocchio and later when she's not sure about going along with the Queens, even if it might help her get what she wants.

 

Analyzing the conflict in this show does highlight some interesting things. For one thing, the protagonist often isn't who you think it would be, based on who the character with the goal is.

 

Season one: Henry is our protagonist because he's the one who actually wants something and is acting to get it. Regina is the opposing force, and Emma is reacting to Regina while also pushing back against Henry.

Henry: I want Emma to accept that she's the Savior and break the curse to bring back everyone's happy endings!

Regina: I want to keep my curse, and I want to get Emma out of here, even if it hurts Henry!

Emma: Sorry, kid, but those are just stories and I'm nobody's Savior.

So, there's a very clear-cut goal and conflict.

 

2A:

Emma and Snow: We want to get back to Storybrooke (and keep Cora from getting to Storybrooke)

Cora and Hook: We want to get to Storybrooke, and we need the same things you need to get there.

There are also obstacles, like the ogres and the need to find the various objects and items, but the core conflict is Team Princess vs. Cora (and sometimes Hook, depending on which way the wind is blowing)

 

2B is such a mess that there's no one clear goal and no one clear conflict. Also, for the most part the bad guys are the protagonists because they're the ones with goals

Cora: I want more power. Being the Dark One would be nice. Oh, and I want my daughter back under my thumb, and maybe revenge against Rumple.

Almost everyone else: NOOOOOOO!

Regina: Mommy!

 

Hook: I want to kill the crocodile

Rumple: Try all you want, dearie, but I have power here, too

Belle: But he has a good heart!

Emma: I can't let you do that, even if he does have it coming

Henry: But he's family!

 

Greg and Tamara: We want to destroy all magic

Everyone else: That would be bad for us. When someone tells us what you're up to, we'll stop you

 

Regina: I want to kill everyone so I can have Henry to myself

Everyone else: ........

 

We're back to a clear conflict with the good guys as protagonists in 3A:

Team Nevenger: We want to save Henry from Pan and get back to Storybrooke

Pan: Not gonna happen. I need Henry's heart to save my power and restore Neverland, and no one leaves Neverland without my permission

Henry: But I want to be a hero and save Neverland!

And then there are obstacles along the way, like the poison, finding Pan, jumping through the hoops to save Neal, getting help from Tink, etc., and there are internal conflicts within the team. But there's always an opposing force in Pan and the Lost Boys.

 

3B, we're back to villain as protagonist, because Zelena's the one who wants something

Zelena: I want to go back in time and get the life Regina had

Everyone else: That would be bad for us, so we're going to stop you

 

4A is more villain as protagonist

Ingrid: I want the magical sisters who were promised to me, and I will destroy everyone else

Everyone else: We're not on board with this plan, so we'll stop you

(with subplot goal for Elsa of finding Anna, but that never really gelled into an actual plot with specific actions and reactions)

Rumple: I want to cleave myself from the dagger

Hook: If I could stop you, I would, but you've got my heart. I'll try sending messages to Emma so she can stop you

Everyone else: ....

Belle at the very last second: Wait! Stop!

 

And I've already done 4B and 5A. Though I guess there is another goal/conflict in 4B

Rumple: I want a happy ending so I won't die of a blackened heart, so I need to find the Author and turn Emma dark to get ink

Everyone else: We can't let Emma turn dark, so we'll stop you, unless, of course, that might interfere with Regina's happy ending

 

Looking at this explains a lot about this show.

Edited February 20, 2016 by Shanna Marie

[KingOfHearts]

 

Conflict to me is more of an opposing force trying to keep the character from achieving a goal, acting against the character.

The intended conflict for the Author plot was the universe acting against Regina. (i.e. the rule that villains don't get happy endings.) This, however, falls apart in 4B when we learn it's actually flipped. It's heroes that got gypped by the Author. That's one of the major reasons (certainly not the only) the storyline didn't work. The audience is told to believe there is a conflict originally, but that's all empty and negated later.

 

A similar example would be heroes working against a villain that turns out to not be a villain at all. (And its the heroes' stupidity that caused to them to think they were one, but it's played out seriously as if the audience is supposed to agree with the heroes' inaccurate assessment.)

Edited February 20, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

The intended conflict for the Author plot was the universe acting against Regina. (i.e. the rule that villains don't get happy endings.) 

 

This was how I interpreted it as well.  It was horribly done, but Regina was in conflict with the "unfair" universe, and she was also in conflict with herself... after all, the whole moral of 4B was supposedly Regina being the one standing between herself and happiness (see: Mother).  Many stories only have internal conflict, and it's just as important as external conflict.  Even though it was horribly done and unconvincing, that was what the writers thought they were doing.

Edited February 20, 2016 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

The intended conflict for the Author plot was the universe acting against Regina. (i.e. the rule that villains don't get happy endings.) This, however, falls apart in 4B when we learn it's actually flipped. It's heroes that got gypped by the Author. That's one of the major reasons (certainly not the only) the storyline didn't work. The audience is told to believe there is a conflict originally, but that's all empty and negated later.

It would have helped if there had been any sense that there actually was a force working against Regina's happiness, with deus ex machina plot twists coming out of the blue to constantly thwart her happiness, or if every time they thought they were getting close to the Author, something happened to whisk the victory away from them. But it worked out more like there was a force working in Regina's favor -- the Author turned out to have been in August's backpack in Marco's garage all this time, and Emma's parents had offloaded her darkness into another person, who just happened to be in Storybrooke right at that time for other reasons. It was all very Forest of Coincidence, and nobody had to do any work to get what they wanted. It just landed in their laps. But, of course, they couldn't show a force working against Regina because there wasn't one.

 

That's one of the many issues with having everyone on board with the plan. They all bought into the idea based on one item of evidence, Regina not being able to be with Robin (never mind that it seems like in any kind of just world, she wouldn't be allowed to be with him because she's benefiting from her own evil, since he was only available to date her in the first place after she imprisoned his wife). They weren't seeing a pattern of villains who'd truly turned their lives around not being able to find happiness in spite of them being good now (rather than getting tripped up by their own evil, like Rumple), nor were they seeing a pattern of heroes always winning, no matter what they did.

 

It would have been lovely if they'd actually worked with the idea that Regina was really in conflict with herself, if maybe she was having a hard time achieving her goal because she kept taking shortcuts and blaming others. But we weren't seeing that conflict all along, and when she did realize it, it was just a lightbulb moment after she got what she wanted, not any kind of real soul searching. They didn't even use the AU role switch for her to gain any insight on herself.

 

Man, that whole plot had so many elements that could have created an interesting meta-statement about fairy tales and definitions of heroes and villains and the true nature of redemption, but they missed just about every single opportunity.

[Camera One]

Once Upon a Time Stars Reveal Their Most Challenging Scenes Ever (Video)

 

LOL at Zelena's one where the actress said she had to jump off a harness ("broomstick") and deliver a one page monologue to everyone.  Their writing for her (and other villains) is just so long-winded.

Edited February 27, 2016 by Camera One

[Curio]

This is from a recent interview, but I won't link the actual article because it contains spoilers:

And finally, on the subject of characters from the past who inhabited strange places… might we ever have resolution for some of the characters from Once Upon A Time In Wonderland that have not resurfaced on the parent show?

“You know what, one day. Because one day, we are going to do the episode for all the people who ask about it, and then when we do that, they could all complain they didn’t see [the characters they wanted],” Kitsis laughs.

 

Can one of you lovely PR people (I know there's a few of you posters who work/have worked in PR) please give Kitsis some interview tips? The sarcastic jokes often come off as foot-in-mouth comments instead. "There's just so many characters and we can't sacrifice Regina's story" and "40 minutes of kissing" spring to mind. Instead of making a joke about the fans complaining about characters that have disappeared without proper resolutions, maybe they could—I don't know—write proper resolutions for them in the first place? People wouldn't bring up Graham's death all the time if the writers just let Emma find out about Regina's involvement. People wouldn't bring up Will and Ana all the time if they didn't drop his story completely in Season 4. Merida's actress wouldn't complain about her dropped story if the writers paced out 5A better and didn't have to rush through yet another winter finale episode. When the writers do things like that, of course the fans (and even actors) are going to complain.

Edited February 28, 2016 by Curio

[Camera One]

That's why it's almost pointless to give any actual feedback to them about the writing. They couldn't care less.

[KingOfHearts]

A&E come off as very arrogant. They totally believe their "quality" writing is full of payoff, character balance, and cleverness. In their eyes, there is no favoritism for Regina. They act like fans who don't understand can't stop bitching. There is no grace in ignoring your mistakes.

[tennisgurl]

Its also comes off as very immature and condescending. Like, "our story is perfect, and if you do not like it, there is clearly something wrong with YOU, and not us". They just cannot take criticism at all, and when they give interviews like that, they just seem clueless and childish. They clearly arent hearing what their fans are actually saying, they are just laughing off legitimate complaints. And by mocking their own fans, they seem ungrateful, on top of all that.  

[Camera One]

I know the main fans they come into contact with are the crazy Twitter people, but sometimes, interviewers ask legitimate questions and they seem to have very little self-awareness. The most egregious example would be saying the biggest problem in 2B was Tamara's taser, or making it seem like people are asking for Snow and Emma washing dishes for an hour.

[KingOfHearts]

 

or making it seem like people are asking for Snow and Emma washing dishes for an hour.

Well, in A&E time, anything longer than twenty seconds is at least an hour. Just look at their wonky timeline where everything happens within a week. There's some sort of writing ADD going on.

Edited February 28, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[kdm07]

I'm sure this has been noted before but when I think back to the show in S1, or say the beginning of S2, one of my biggest disappointments is that the show never delved into how the citizens of Storybrooke are dealing with melding their two lives together. Yes, they might have retained their Storybrooke memories but how do you reconcile that with their alternate lives in the Enchanted Forest.

 

For example, Ruby/Red. How did she deal with knowing that once in awhile she turns into a werewolf? How do the dwarves deal with being miners again and these are just minor characters. We could've taken a look at Charming and said how is he dealing with his life as David versus being a Prince? Or Snow dealing with being a teacher where she was once a Queen? I think they did it a little with Regina but that plot veered in another direction due to poor planning. I genuinely thought they would look into this after Emma destroyed the curse but they never really did. Instead off we went to the EF, Neverland, Greg & Tamara etc which as a standalone season was fine, but it took me out of the show for quite awhile before I eventually quit watching it altogether bar an episode here and there.

 

Now, it could've happened later on and I missed it all so if that's the case, disregard my post but if it didn't, am I the only who feels this way?

[Shanna Marie]

From the all-seasons thread:

Television writing must be more difficult and more lucrative than prose, is all I can think.

If you're not someone like JK Rowling or Stephen King and earning far more than most TV staff writers, yeah, TV is much more lucrative. Hollywood money is insane. I'm pretty sure that Writers Guild minimum for a TV script is far beyond the average midlist advance for a novel.

 

As for difficult, I generally think they're different skill sets. However, TV writers face a couple of different issues that novelists don't. One is that the length has to be very precise to fit into a particular slot with room for a certain number of commercials, and it's not always in the writer's control how long things will run. Even in a kind of book that has a pretty regimented length, like category romance (Harlequin/Silhouette), you still have about 5,000 words of leeway to fit within the length, and you (and maybe the editor) are in control of the length. In TV, not only does it have to be a certain length, but when you're writing a script, you can't be totally sure how long it will really take to play out, and you can be screwed up if an actor or director decide to insert a piece of business in between lines of dialogue, or if they play out a scene in a way different than you had in mind with your mental timing.

 

The other issue is something few novelists have to worry about these days (but that was a problem for Dickens), and that's that the first part of the story is "published" before the whole thing is written. As a novelist, if I'm coming in around 100,000 words and I still have a lot to do to wrap up the main plot and I still have a few subplots hanging, I can decide to cut a subplot entirely, going back to the beginning and cutting it throughout. If I get to the end and realize I need something to be set up in order to get to the resolution I want, I can go back and put it in. TV writers don't have that luxury. I'm not sure how far ahead they write, but I'm pretty sure the first episode of the season had aired before they'd done all the writing for the arc finale. They couldn't have realized in writing the finale that they weren't going to have time to wrap up Merida's story, and then gone back and cut her from the premiere. There's very, very limited ability to go back and fix things in earlier scripts.

 

Now, it could've happened later on and I missed it all so if that's the case, disregard my post but if it didn't, am I the only who feels this way?

It did not happen, and we've devoted countless hours and pixels to complaining about that. They don't even seem to be able to keep straight which characters have the cursed memories and which characters came in other ways and therefore don't have knowledge about living in America and using technology.

[Lexx]

I've seen people mention the Home Office story as having been heavily altered between seasons.  Is this known for a fact, or is it just speculation?  I've always suspected this was the case but I've never known for sure.

[Camera One]

I'm pretty sure it is speculation, since I don't remember A&E saying anything definitive.  They usually plan the next season in early summer, so even if they know the direction, details can change.  Like how the Apprentice's story about The Sorcerer, the darkness and the Dagger from the 4B finale being completely different in 5A.

 

But let's take a look at some of the things A&E said right before the Season 2 finale:

http://www.thetvaddict.com/2013/05/05/once-upon-a-time-scoop-direct-from-the-source-creators-tease-storybrooke-meets-neverland-baelfire-meets-wendy-and-introducing-peter-pan%E2%80%99s-shadow/

 

 

Eddy and Adam assured that we will find out who “Home Office” is and what they want, but not the actual “why” of what they are doing in the season finale.

 

I guess the "why" was the Peter Pan stuff?  Or was it the three lines Greg and Tamara said to Henry before they expired in the 3A premiere?

 

As for what “Home Office” really is, Adam said, “Hopefully, it’s not what you think.”  For the 2nd season finale they just really wanted to explore what happens with the real world starts to connect to Storybrooke and the ramifications of that collision of realities.

 

I don't remember that being explored in the Season 2 final at all.

 

 

 

Eddy verified, “As always with a curse, there is a self-destruct button.”

 

Really?  You want to use the word "always"?

 

 

 

Adam confirmed that there is no time-travel in ONCE UPON A TIME. “It’s all linear.”

 

Oh is it now...

 

Adam and Eddy confirmed that the next 2 episodes will provide a lot more insight to what happened with Baelfire (Dylan Schmid) after he fell through the porthole separating him from his father.  But as Adam and Eddy cautioned: Neverland may not be what you think it is.  Eddy called it “a kind of Neverland.” He was also hesitant to confirm whether Baelfire’s story continues into Season 3.

 

Good thing they were hesitant, since it wasn't explored at all.

 

 

 

Eddy then added, “Our characters like to repeat their own mistakes . . . As seen with our villains this year, they are all trying to go down the straight-and-narrow and none of them can seem to get off the bottle.”

 

The characters aren't the only ones who like to repeat their own mistakes.

 

And now for my favorite quote...

 

 

 

As to whether Wendy could be a resident of Storybrooke, Eddy remarked, “I would be very disappointed if we didn’t see Wendy grown up and a part of the ONCE UPON A TIME world.”

 

I guess he's really really disappointed in the writers right now.

Edited March 1, 2016 by Camera One

[Curio]

As to whether Wendy could be a resident of Storybrooke, Eddy remarked, “I would be very disappointed if we didn’t see Wendy grown up and a part of the ONCE UPON A TIME world.”

 

Before I became addicted to spoilers for this show, I remember thinking to myself and being 100% certain that the writers were going to set up Neal with adult-Wendy in 3A. Boy, was I wrong.

[Mathius]

I guess Wendy was going to be grown-up along with John and Michael, but plans changed.

 

And sheesh, they've been using the dumbass "I'd be very disappointed if..." line since that long, huh?

 

 

I guess the "why" was the Peter Pan stuff?  Or was it the three lines Greg and Tamara said to Henry before they expired in the 3A premiere?

 

The "why" was Henry having the Heart of the Truest Believer which was the thing that could save Pan from dying.  The rest of the quote was right in that at the end of the S2 finale we do find out who the Home Office is (the Lost Boys) and what they want (Henry), with the "why" they want Henry being explored in 3A.

 

I've seen people mention the Home Office story as having been heavily altered between seasons.  Is this known for a fact, or is it just speculation?  I've always suspected this was the case but I've never known for sure.

 

The Home Office story wasn't heavily altered between seasons, it was heavily altered during S2.  As it was starting, it seemed like it was going to be a straight-up real world science vs. magic story (Greg was introduced in an episode with that theme in Frankenstein's backstory, so Frankenstein probably would have played a big role in it).  But then they got the rights to Peter Pan and wanted to do the Neverland story instead, so the Home Office story changed so that it was all a scam being pulled by the Lost Boys and an excuse to get to Neverland.  The actual name "Home Office", however, was not invented until this alteration to the story was made, as the name "Home Office" is a clue to the Darlings' involvement (it's a British government term), and as 3A reveals it was John and Michael who were leading the supposed anti-magic group.

Edited March 1, 2016 by Mathius

[Free]

I guess he's really really disappointed in the writers right now.

 

So many contradictions...

 

I remember thinking to myself and being 100% certain that the writers were going to set up Neal with adult-Wendy in 3A. Boy, was I wrong.

 

That would've made sense given his connection to Neverland.

 

The "why" was Henry having the Heart of the Truest Believer which was the thing that could save Pan from dying.  The rest of the quote was right in that at the end of the S2 finale we do find out who the Home Office is (the Lost Boys) and what they want (Henry), with the "why" they want Henry being explored in 3A.

 

I think HO definitely changed, Greg and Tamara were gotten rid of too quickly to have been planned.

[Mathius]

I think HO definitely changed, Greg and Tamara were gotten rid of too quickly to have been planned

That just shows that Greg and Tamara could have been planned for more, but got killed due to unpopularity. The HO did not get changed between S2 and S3. The A&E quote right there, said before the S2 finale aired, says that the finale would reveal the Home Office's identity, and it did: the Lost Boys, with Gold outright saying Greg and Tamara were pawns and had no idea who they were really working for. I agree that the HO idea was originally different in its inception, but the fact is that by the time the last few episodes of S2 aired and the words "Home Office" were first spoken, the plan was that it would be the Lost Boys, with "Home Office" being a codename for them invented by ever the British nationalist John Darling.

Edited March 1, 2016 by Mathius

[KAOS Agent]

Here's a quote from an interview with A&E that made me laugh (the article is very spoilery, so I won't link it):

 

"We left Belle and Rumple in a place at the end of the midseason cliffhanger where that relationship was evolving and having its own new obstacle [Rumple’s Dark One status] that we’ll eventually put in its way."

 

Okay, but since when is Rumpel being the Dark One a new obstacle? Hasn't that always been the obstacle from the very beginning? They do recognize how stupid they sound here, right? His story is the ultimate retread for this show. It never changes, but they seem to think it's new and interesting every time.

[Free]

That just shows that Greg and Tamara could have been planned for more, but got killed due to unpopularity. The HO did not get changed between S2 and S3. The A&E quote right there, said before the S2 finale aired, says that the finale would reveal the Home Office's identity, and it did: the Lost Boys, with Gold outright saying Greg and Tamara were pawns and had no idea who they were really working for. I agree that the HO idea was originally different in its inception, but the fact is that by the time the last few episodes of S2 aired and the words "Home Office" were first spoken, the plan was that it would be the Lost Boys, with "Home Office" being a codename for them invented by ever the British nationalist John Darling.

 

General ideas were changed between S2 and 3, it's why S2 was all over the place and S3 had a very rocky transition, well until S5.