The Writers of OUAT: Because, Um, Magic, That's Why

[oliverwendell]

Good question. As a writer myself, I would hate to have my story told in weekly increments like television stories are told, for exactly this reason. Between spoilers and the massive fandom hive brain that can collectively guess almost anything, it's impossible to have any twist truly be a surprise to anyone other than the casual fan. Then, by the time the twist plays out on screen, fans roll their eyes and call it sooooooo predictable. Whereas if it had aired all at once, like in a movie, without the breaks that provide the opportunity for spoilers and spec, it might have been called brilliant, shocking, etc.

 

I suppose most fans are just casual fans, but even they will get wind of spoilers or accurate speculation if the twist is big enough. Look what's recently happened with Game of Thrones, and you'll know what I mean.

 

Though I agree with Shanna, the story should still be able to stand on its own even without the adrenaline rush of a storytelling surprise. Still, I get what he's saying. It's just so hard to really be surprising any more.

Edited December 18, 2015 by oliverwendell

[KAOS Agent]

I think the problem is that they're always trying to have a surprise twist. Because of that, the audience is looking for it and speculating what it could be. It's less about the audience crowdsourcing and figuring out the twist and more about the audience knowing and expecting the twist. What would be more surprising is if for once there wasn't a twist. On some level, it's like they're depending on the twist distracting the audience from the holes in the plot and dropped or pointless storylines. 

[KingOfHearts]

I care more about the quality of the twist than an actual surprise factor. The Star Trek 2 twist was unnecessary and added little to the story. Some viewers may guess it, but that doesn't mean the execution is totally predictable. What the writers do with the twist isn't always easy to figure either.

If a story is engaging enough, you'll feel the surprise because the characters are surprised, even if you knew what was coming. Even though I read spoilers, I still get an "OMG moment" sometimes for stuff I already knew was coming. That's the power of immersion.

Edited December 18, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Faemonic]

Lindelof either forgot (or hasn't experienced) that there is also a strong "No Spoilers!" culture going on in modern media that's at least as knee-jerk and lacking in nuance or context-consideration as everything else in fandom.

If the storyteller sets it up just right, and the audience is willing to be surprised, then it'll happen.

Obviously, if the audience isn't willing to be surprised, and leaks scripts or gets obsessed with all the speculation just so that they can say "Duh!" it won't happen.

That doesn't mean that storytellers never just set it up wrong.

[Shanna Marie]

I suppose a lot of it depends on how much you value surprise as a key ingredient in storytelling. If it's "twist above all," then you've got problems. If the surprise twist is all that matters, then your story sinks or swims on whether people are surprised, and writing just to get the surprise can sink your story. The people who overanalyze aren't necessarily looking to be surprised. They're looking for the pleasure in being able to solve the puzzle, and having something come out of thin air with no clues makes them upset, even if they were surprised. Ideally, the clues are all there and it would have been possible to solve the puzzle, but the result is still a bit of a surprise, and you can go back and trace how that outcome came about. When it's crowdsourced, it might be harder to come up with a puzzle that doesn't get solved that way, while an isolated viewer might not figure it out. But that just means the writers have to keep raising their game.

 

They can do it by building the story in such a way that there are multiple layers of potential meaning, with perfectly valid clues that go either way -- my gold standard of this is the movie The Shawshank Redemption: first time through, it looks like one story with all the clues making total sense in telling that story, and then there's the twist and you realize that there was a second meaning to all those clues. To really mix it up, add in some red herrings so that the clues have even more potential meanings or so that there are things that look like they could have multiple meanings but end up being only what they appear to be on the surface. Also, the surprise has to turn out to either be satisfying if you guess it or has to be even more satisfying than the fan theories if they didn't guess it. When the surprise is less surprising and less emotionally satisfying than what the fans came up with, it's not a good surprise.

 

But the important thing is to play fair with the audience so that when the surprise happens, it makes sense and is something it would have been possible to figure out. Looking at this season, they sort of seemed to be setting up the Dark Hook twist that way, where there was stuff going on that hinted at what he really was in Storybrooke (like being drawn to the basement door where Excalibur was). The problem was that they didn't give a very satisfactory explanation to how and why just wiping his memory kept him from being dark, and then getting his memory back was all it took to send him off the deep end.

 

So I come back to my point that the writers need to stop catering to the small group of obsessed fans who overanalyze. If they figure it out, then let them just not be surprised. It's better to let them feel satisfied in being right and let them get their enjoyment from seeing how it plays out, by letting it be emotionally resonant. Worry about surprising the majority of the audience who just watches. This is where the 4A finale utterly failed. We knew Hook would be saved at the last second, so it was impossible for that to be a surprise. Having Belle be the one to do it by figuring out Rumple's duplicity was a cool twist. But having her do it with something that fell out of thin air in that episode rather than her piecing together clues that were there throughout the arc was very unsatisfying, as was Emma not having put together the clues that were there all along, even in that one episode. There were way too many red herrings laid out in emotional moments that ended up not mattering, and then we didn't even get to see all the emotional fallout. When we see Hook leaving anguished messages about hoping Emma never forgives him because it means she's still alive or when we see her seeming to notice something odd about his farewell kiss or when he fights past the control to manage to signal her that everything is not okay, and it all comes to nothing without them even reacting to the truth when it's revealed, it falls as a big thud. It was like the whole arc didn't matter because everything that resolved it appeared in that very last episode, with nothing that happened earlier contributing to the resolution.

 

The reaction to a surprise should be "ooh!" and not "huh?"

[KingOfHearts]

A&E tend to forget their show is about Disney fairy tales, which while have their own twists, are also predictable. They're always bookended and, for the most part, predictable for adults. Predictability is not always a bad thing because it can give your audience a comfortable and familiar feeling. Sometimes I actually prefer watching with spoilers in mind. But how it comes across on screen in the execution is what matters if you've had the proper setup.

 

 

The problem was that they didn't give a very satisfactory explanation to how and why just wiping his memory kept him from being dark, and then getting his memory back was all it took to send him off the deep end.

This is where Dark Hook fails. It's not that it can't work or makes no sense if you analyze it (for the most part), but it's never clear why exactly his downturn was so deep. The angst and plot take control, and you don't get to look very far into Hook's psyche. The daddy flashbacks don't explain much about current events either. So viewers are stuck more with "huh?" than "ooh!" It's jarring after seeing such a long redemption arc for him, so reasoning would have smoothed the whiplash.

[Shanna Marie]

This is where Dark Hook fails. It's not that it can't work or makes no sense if you analyze it (for the most part), but it's never clear why exactly his downturn was so deep. The angst and plot take control, and you don't get to look very far into Hook's psyche. The daddy flashbacks don't explain much about current events either. So viewers are stuck more with "huh?" than "ooh!" It's jarring after seeing such a long redemption arc for him, so reasoning would have smoothed the whiplash.

The Dark Hook twist worked up to the point of the revelation. When he got his memories back and had that look of shock and betrayal and we learned that he'd been the Dark One during the whole time in Storybrooke. That was one of those "ooh" surprises, even if you were somewhat spoiled. You could look back and see all the little clues along the way in the way Emma dealt with him. It made sense, but it wasn't so blazingly obvious. The problem came with the further development of it and getting to the point where Emma took the actions she did for the reasons she did. His immediate descent into Worst Darkness Ever didn't make sense given what we know of his character and his experience struggling with darkness. The fact that wiping his memories and then restoring them was all it took to flip the switch back and forth between dark and light. Between episodes (since we had two weeks), we came up with all kinds of theories about how it would go, and while they picked one we didn't speculate about, that was because it was the one that wasn't really based on anything we knew about the character, the situation, or the mythology. Emma's grand plan only makes any sense if you recognize the strings the writers were pulling to manipulate events and realize that it was more about the surprise for us than about something that would make sense -- like wiping memories to the point of entering Camelot so no one knew Arthur was rotten rather than just going back to right before Hook was dying, or Emma playing Dark One when she didn't have to. She was capable of pretending to be her usual self, so why not go back pretending that everything was okay and they'd cured her so they wouldn't be suspicious or investigating? The main answer is that they wanted that shock and surprise and a different costume to play up the contrast. It wasn't because that's what it would make sense to do.

[Free]

Storybrooke looks like a Ghost Town inhabited by the Charmings/Mills/Hoods and the dwarfs. Even Granny's can be transported to any realm. As a location, the town has become generic and irrelevant except giving a reason to dress everyone for modern clothes. 

 

So much this. The writers have removed much of their nuances by taking away small town life. What I noticed through S1 was that the characters were consistent and well utilized. Recurring characters didn't just appear in their centric, vanish into Offscreenville for another seven episodes, and come back. It always made sense if a character was absent or not. The main characters interacted a lot more with side characters such as Whale, Red, or Archie. It wasn't just one-liners either - there were actual storylines and relationships. Nowadays it's closer to a wave hello as they drive by.

 

It's okay to have guest characters you never see again. Hansel and Gretel didn't need to be reintroduced to contribute. Tiny didn't leave a huge gap in the show. But the writers are so inconsistent about who they bring back and who they leave behind. (The Underworld will highlight this in great detail.) Why is Aurora at the Disney Princess Mothers Group, yet we never see her around town? Was she really necessary for that one scene? Why spend so much time setting up Lily through S4, only to drop her like a hot potato? She even got her own cliffhanger! Then you got characters like Graham, Jefferson or Will, who don't get the closure they deserve. The writers are obsessed with bringing in guest stars that they don't secure actors they could actually flesh out.

 

Replying in All Seasons.

 

I loved Storybrooke, back in S1, it was like its own character as a charming little town with all these characters interacting with each other, I missed those nuances since it became more plot oriented and less character oriented compared to when the series first started.

[Actionmage]

I loved Storybrooke, back in S1, it was like its own character as a charming little town with all these characters interacting with each other,

 

I think the above is my biggest gripe with the writing; it doesn't have to be all or nothing. There can be a reasonable mix of PlotPlotPlot with character moments. It doesn't even have to be a 50/50 thing.

 

Instead of just throwing in a mention of Blue babysitting Pistachio while her dad and aunt are in the Underworld, show Robin, Regina and Emma talking with Blue about possible ways to bring Hook back. Put it sometime before Emma goes to her parents. Then there's time for a quick, teeny scene of Robin asking if Blue would do this huge favor for a man she has never interacted with. ( Or very rarely interacted with.)  Maybe even a throwaway line about how he understands that faeries were instrumental in Regina finding her way to him or somesuch and that's why Blue and not Granny.  Not just because.

 

Why wasn't Granny at the diner? David texted her the evac warning and she and LeRoy were getting folks to safety.  The dwarves don't run, so that's why they were out, making sure they were the last "civilians" in town. (My head cannon has Storybrooke with a vast, faerie-made, underground bunker; it's a tightish fit, but folks are reasonably comfortable.)

 

Why haven't we seen the Princesses doing anything other than Mommy & Me class? They are off being community leaders since the actual mayor and sheriff's department tend to be absent for chunks of time.  Where's Will?  The last time Snow saw him, he was in Red's company. ( If the bean isn't too picky, maybe Will could have hitched a ride on the bean and gotten back to his Anna?)

 

While plenty of us here find what A&E have called "boring" ( the "kitchen sink"/ character-building scenes), what we like quite a bit, the erratic who-gets-remembered/who-gets-a-return-to-the-screen is head-scratching sometimes. ITA with King of Hearts' opinion of the inconsistencies. In their rush to play with Disney stuff, they forget the Disney stuff they are playing with already and the interesting stories for those characters. 

[Camera One]

I totally agree, Actionmage.  All those things could have been done, but at the end of the day, the Writers have zero interest in writing the day-to-day normal struggles.  Instead of all those hours that Merida got, imagine if they had spent that time on the issues of rule (or more like, consequences of non-rule) during the 6 weeks when practically everyone in authority was MIA, and then the problems that resulted from everyone from Camelot arriving.  Regina and Snowing in the Sheriff Dept. should have had their hands full even aside from the Dark Emma stuff.  

 

The Writers seemed to have added the character of Merida with Rumple in mind, for fear that he would have nothing to do.  But what if they had the newly awoken Rumple struggling with self-doubt from his ability to placate the town, if he had awoken from his coma while everyone was away?  Maybe that could more naturally have explained why he eventually so desperately wanted his magic back.  What if in present-day Storybrooke, King Arthur rallied the citizens to his side, pointing to Dark Emma as the reason why Snowing/Regina should no longer rule?  This type of story could have used a lot of the supporting characters of Storybrooke, and perhaps even a few guest stars.  It would have been more organic that the insta-hero crap which was boring as hell to boot.  

Edited December 24, 2015 by Camera One

[Actionmage]

All those things could have been done, but at the end of the day, the Writers have zero interest in writing the day-to-day normal struggles.

 

That's what I was saying: that they didn't even have to write pages of character-building, but a few throw-away lines here or there as drive-by explanations/info-dumpettes about why 'A Character' wasn't reasonably around for help/advice/etc. It would keep the idea of Storybrook as a character in itself alive and smooth over why some characters wouldn't be around.

 

I don't think television writing has to work in binaries only. TS, TW, maybe, but they've shown nuance just enough that I can't help but wonder why they can't even do the tiniest sliver of Why Something Isn't Happening.  A couple of reasonable info-dump sentences and on with the story they're invested in. 

 

Camera One, I like the Arthur idea and would watch the hell out of it. If you would write it. 

Edited December 24, 2015 by Actionmage

[Free]

The Writers seemed to have added the character of Merida with Rumple in mind, for fear that he would have nothing to do.

 

Definitely, once she was done as Rumple's plot device, her character was just left hanging with nothing else to do, the same with the Camelot characters like Arthur and Guineviere that basically amounted to nothing in the end.

[Camera One]

This article bemoaned the end of the stand-alone episode in TV series nowadays:
http://www.macleans.ca/culture/television/the-stand-alone-episode-meets-its-end/?google_editors_picks=true

 

Do you agree?  Is this one of the problems with "Once Upon a Time"?  Are the writers restricted by not including filler in seasons?

[Faemonic]

http://www.macleans.ca/culture/television/the-stand-alone-episode-meets-its-end/?google_editors_picks=true

Totally disagree. I mean, with articles like that, which bring up Netflix binge-watching culture as a reason for showrunners to structure their shows like operas, then that could very well be what's going to happen. Showrunners read the article, or similar messages like that, and just decide that that's where the money is. No longer in episodic series.

But that's like saying that because Broadway musicals were back in fashion for a while (with Glee, and every movie musical after Moulin Rouge), nobody's going to listen to a 3-minute pop song anymore because the populace expects songs to come with context. So, concept albums better come back in style, because that's where the money is.

That's just untrue.

That said, with Once, it's just strange. I appreciated that the first season kept the story arc low-key. Even Ginny said that the cursebreak at the end was a surprise to her, because she thought that was going to happen at the end of the series, not at the end of the season. There could have been a lot of slow-burn character development with the Conflict Of The Week between the mayor and sheriff, and Mary Margaret learning to mom without knowing it, and all these background characters playing pass-the-centric. I would have kept on watching.

But, I think that's just really not the sort of show that these showrunners ever actually wanted to write, whether Epic or Episodic is where the money is or not. And that's strange, because for all the new developments (Hook's a regular, and he's a lover not a fighter! Ruby disappeared completely! Regina has a sister, a new boyfriend, and a niece-daughter! Nealfire's dead! Emma got to raise Henry! Belle's dating somebody else! Rumple's mortal! Snowing has a Snowflake! Emma has magic powers!) there's also a lot of "uh-oh! haha never mind" or what TVtropers call Aesop Amnesia. Those sort of emotional payoff fake-outs are best utilized in keeping characters iconic by refusing to develop them, as with episodic shows.

So...unfortunately, I'm unhappy either way.

[Free]

That said, with Once, it's just strange. I appreciated that the first season kept the story arc low-key. Even Ginny said that the cursebreak at the end was a surprise to her, because she thought that was going to happen at the end of the series, not at the end of the season. There could have been a lot of slow-burn character development with the Conflict Of The Week between the mayor and sheriff, and Mary Margaret learning to mom without knowing it, and all these background characters playing pass-the-centric. I would have kept on watching.

 

Agreed, looking back, they should've kept the curse since they kept rehashing memory losses/curses in the future seasons anyway.  It would've kept the show grounded while introducing new characters for future arcs while keeping the show in a nice community environment instead of off-screen land and what the show ended up being was more formulaic.

[Serena]

They couldn't have kept the curse. People were already calling Emma dumb for not believing already. Keeping the curse would have meant sacrificing her characterization. But for sure, they should have held off on magic. Magic only works in the EF (so the Team Princess adventure in 2A is the same) but neither Regina nor Rumple get it back in SB, so they have to use their brains like in S1.

[Camera One]

Writing Emma "dumb" was their decision and a particularly dumb one.  They could have allowed Emma to show progress in her belief, to start questioning along the way as she found more clues.  There were many steps that they skipped over, which could have been explored prior to the curse breaking, and these could have sustained another season.  Or these steps could have occurred in the latter half of Season 1.  These would have been the major natural breakthroughs:

- Emma accepts that something is not right

- Emma believes and only she knows.  Emma interacts with Snowing knowing they're her parents.

- Henry finds out that Emma believes.

- Certain townspeople also believe, maybe with Emma's help in remembering, and Emma works with them.

- One of Emma's parents believe and the other doesn't, so she bonds with the first believer

- The other believes, and she bonds with the second believer

- Regina finds out Emma knows

- Emma finds out Regina knows

- Emma interacting with Regina after knowing she knows

 

None of these developments would have sacrificed Emma's characterization.  She could have been actively working to end the Curse while playing the bailsbondperson role.

 

I definitely agree that simply holding out on magic in Storybrooke would have already made a world of difference.

Edited December 28, 2015 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

I agree. It took Emma too long to believe, and as others have said, "dumb" Emma was getting tiresome to root for. It would have been nice if the second half of the season had Emma working with Henry and August to bring people people's memories back one by one. Everyone getting their memories back at once was also extremely anticlimactic, especially since the repercussions of the Curse were never really dealt with properly. I found Snow's "you found me" to Charming rather idiotic, and not at all romantic. Of course he found her--he got his memories back and made an about turn from leaving Storybrooke. It's not like he had to do slay a dragon to find her. :-p Besides, was it really worth sending Emma alone to the LwM worth it to protect her from such a lame-ass Curse? 

[KingOfHearts]

 

They couldn't have kept the curse. People were already calling Emma dumb for not believing already. Keeping the curse would have meant sacrificing her characterization. But for sure, they should have held off on magic. Magic only works in the EF (so the Team Princess adventure in 2A is the same) but neither Regina nor Rumple get it back in SB, so they have to use their brains like in S1.

You could have kept the curse and had Emma believe in it. For me, Emma seeing everyone in a whole new light while they were still cursed would have fueled the drama better. The awkward factor with living with her mom would have been more drawn out. She could start assembling allies like August, Rumple or Jefferson. Maybe over time other characters like David or Belle could get their memories too. The goal would be to figure out how to break the curse, while also keeping Regina off the trail. 

 

It's not a flawless idea, but it's interesting to think about.

 

 

But for sure, they should have held off on magic. Magic only works in the EF (so the Team Princess adventure in 2A is the same) but neither Regina nor Rumple get it back in SB, so they have to use their brains like in S1.

 

Especially this though. Storybrooke needed to be set apart from the Enchanted Forest for good contrast and atmosphere. There's no point in being in a LWM if there's magic and nobody plays by its rules. S2 suffered from trying to do too much all at once, but mostly in 2B. 

 

 

Besides, was it really worth sending Emma alone to the LwM worth it to protect her from such a lame-ass Curse?

If Emma came over with the Dark Curse, Regina would have killed her on sight... well, except that it would have broken the curse. Maybe she would have raised her like Mother Gothel? 

Edited December 28, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

For me, Emma seeing everyone in a whole new light while they were still cursed would have fueled the drama better. The awkward factor with living with her mom would have been more drawn out.

 

This really was something I was really looking forward to back in Season 1.  

 

I get the writing difficulty since they wanted to use Henry eating the apple turnover, which was super awesome.  But I think they could still have had that incident make Emma believe, and she didn't need to tell Regina right away.  I know many loved "A Land Without Magic", but to me, this scene felt really anticlimatic.

 

Emma: Is sick because of you! That apple turnover you gave me? He ate it!

Regina: What? It was meant for you!

Emma: It’s true, isn’t it?

Regina: What are you talking about?

Emma: It’s true, isn’t it? All of it.

Regina: Yes.

 

I suppose they wanted to have Emma and Regina working together to save Henry, since they both loved him so much, but I think Emma could have played Regina by pretending she thought it was food poisoning or a severe allergic reaction or something (I doubt Dr. Whale would have cared about lying).  Meanwhile, she seeks out Jefferson, who distracts Regina by letting out Belle, and later tricks her into believing some other explanation for Henry waking up.  Belle's return would also preoccupy Rumple for a bit.   And then, near the end of the episode, Emma takes a leap of faith and tries giving Henry a true love's kiss, and it works.  She looks back to see Mary Margaret in new light.  Emma vows to Henry she's going to bring everyone's memories back.   Just that alone would have made me anticipate the next season.

Edited December 28, 2015 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

If Emma came over with the Dark Curse, Regina would have killed her on sight... well, except that it would have broken the curse. Maybe she would have raised her like Mother Gothel?

I've often wondered how that might have gone. Regina's famous "motherly instinct" would kick in and she could bring up Emma as her daughter. Emma would have played the role of Henry. She would age normally because she was the "savior", and she would have needed to make Mary Margaret believe. It would have been an interesting direction to take the story.

Edited December 28, 2015 by Rumsy4

[KingOfHearts]

 

It would have been an interesting direction to take the story.

Sounds like there's either Bizarro World 2 or fanfiction coming in the future... oh wait, that's the same thing.

 

It's not like S2's setup couldn't have worked, but it brought a lot of expectations with it. Payoff had to address Emma believing, Regina's demise, magic coming, Belle's return, Emma's parents, the breaking of the curse's effects on Storybrooke, Jefferson, August, etc. in order to truly execute what the S1 finale was attempting to push. Through 2A, A&E did put some effort into this I don't think they get enough credit for. We saw Emma and MM bonding in EF, Regina facing her victims, characters like Jefferson and Whale coming to terms with their new existence, etc. But I don't think it's quite all there.

 

I'm fine with S2 going into new territory, but its pacing was so choppy. The curse broke, then we immediately jumped into Team Princess. Emma and Mary Margaret returned, but then Cora, Neal, Greg and Tamara waltzed into town. Snow and Charming considered an exodus to the Enchanted Forest, but then everyone had to go to Neverland right away. Every time the show was confronted with major character issues, the writers got scared and distracted the audience with another adventure or threat.

 

If the whole season was about the characters dealing with their states of being, it would get better praise. The right puzzle pieces are there, they're just not utilized. Neal, Cora, Hook and even Greg and Lacey are all great concepts. It wasn't very good planning to introduce all of them coming off the heels of S1's promises, though. However, a lot of time was spent on furthering the plot that could have either been used for payoff or fleshing out the new characters. Into the Deep, Child of the Moon, Tiny, The Outsider, and The Queen is Dead all wasted plenty of focus on temporary dilemmas. Some of those flashbacks could have waited for S3 or just not happened at all.

 

Too many characters, not enough execution. The events of S2 needed more than a season.

Edited December 28, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Free]

They couldn't have kept the curse. People were already calling Emma dumb for not believing already. Keeping the curse would have meant sacrificing her characterization. But for sure, they should have held off on magic. Magic only works in the EF (so the Team Princess adventure in 2A is the same) but neither Regina nor Rumple get it back in SB, so they have to use their brains like in S1.

 

Yet we still have characters doing dumb stuff post Curse, if anything, they're dumber than before, and it's even worse wth the repetitive curses/memory loss that the show abused in the subsequent arcs.

 

At least before we had much better character interactions.

 

After the disappointment of Dark Swan constantly pouting and brooding throughout the arc over her mistake, I'll gladly take S1 Emma back in a heartbeat.

Edited December 29, 2015 by Free

[daxx]

I've often wondered how that might have gone. Regina's famous "motherly instinct" would kick in and she could bring up Emma as her daughter. Emma would have played the role of Henry. She would age normally because she was the "savior", and she would have needed to make Mary Margaret believe. It would have been an interesting direction to take the story.

Except Emma wouldn't have come over. If Charming hadn't placed her in the wardrobe when he did she would have been killed. Regina even said killing a newborn just made her to do list.

[Rumsy4]

Well... obviously it's a hypothetical scenario. They could have made it so that Regina's bleeding heart took over when she was about to kill infant Emma. It would have made Regina's redemption arc heck of a lot more believable that what they gave us in the Show.

[Free]

Well... obviously it's a hypothetical scenario. They could have made it so that Regina's bleeding heart took over when she was about to kill infant Emma. It would have made Regina's redemption arc heck of a lot more believable that what they gave us in the Show.

 

Too bad for the children in the villagers that got executed during the FTL flashbacks or even the kids that died during the Hansel and Gretel flashbacks.

[Camera One]

LOL, latest insights into Adam.

 

 

 

« berry ‏@berry_sck  Dec 27

@AdamHorowitzLA why did Regina and Emma fight to keep Henry safe for 4 seasons and now they're risking him taking him to hell over a man?

 

Adam Horowitz ‏@AdamHorowitzLA  Dec 27

@berry_sck because he would have followed them anyway, this way they can try to keep him safe

 

Adam Horowitz ‏@AdamHorowitzLA  Dec 27

@berry_sck also they're not planning on going to hell

katie ❥ ‏@parrillapoehler Dec 27

@AdamHorowitzLA @berry_sck emma did actually call it hell???

Adam Horowitz ‏@AdamHorowitzLA Dec 27

@parrillapoehler @berry_sck underworld

 

 

Sometimes, they really shouldn't try to "explain" since it makes no sense.  They could have left without telling Henry.  And apparently, now Hell is not the same as the Underworld.  Ooookay...

Edited December 29, 2015 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

How would Henry get there on his own? No one can get there without Rumpel's blood. Since Rumpel went with them, there's no way for Henry to follow. The writers' explanation is just stupid.

[Free]

LOL, latest insights into Adam.

 

 

 

 

 

Sometimes, they really shouldn't try to "explain" since it makes no sense.  They could have left without telling Henry.  And apparently, now Hell is not the same as the Underworld.  Ooookay...

 

In the same episode, they've had Rumple explain to them what a horrible place this was, they fought DOs to get away from this place when they were marked, and then they just all volunteer to go in the end.

[Shanna Marie]

I think a lot of the issue is that they aren't clear on what the curse itself really is and what really breaks it. There was the punching through the barriers to get to another world, creating Storybrooke, and physically transforming people into something that fits into the World Without Magic. That wasn't actually "broken" until mid season 3 when Regina undid the curse, erasing Storybrooke and returning everyone to their homes and their true forms and selves. When they've repeated the curse later, this was the part that actually happened, so that must be the core of the curse, and Emma had nothing to do with breaking it unless you consider that she influenced Regina into being the kind of person who would choose to undo the curse. Then there was the memory and identity part, where the victims didn't know who they really were and were made to think they were someone else. Apparently that's an optional add-on, like the memory rider Zelena and Emma added to later curses. This was the part Emma broke with the True Love's Kiss with Henry, which actually makes no sense if you think about it -- why would a TLK between people who were both outside the curse break the spell? If they were going to go that route, it should have been a TLK between Emma and Snow, since the curse was centered around Snow. Wake her up, and it breaks the curse on everyone, like in the Sleeping Beauty story or the Beauty and the Beast story, where breaking the curse on the object of the curse saves everyone else. And then there was the time standing still part, which Emma broke by deciding to stay in town. That also seems to have been optional for the curse, since it hasn't happened with subsequent curses.

 

Basically, what it boils down to is that they wanted to have Storybrooke as part of the premise of the show, and they didn't really think beyond that in working out the specifics of how the curse worked, and they keep using the curse as a crutch for getting people where they need them to be without worrying about consistency.

 

I wouldn't have had a problem with Emma's skepticism because that was a core part of her character and what she was being asked to believe was so huge. The problem was that they made her extremely gullible when the plot needed, so she kept falling into all of Rumple's schemes and she was so quick to trust Sidney when he was playing her. That was what made her look so dumb, that she fell for so many things and yet was stubbornly skeptical about things that were actually true. If she hadn't believed anyone about anything, it might have worked.

 

I also don't really mind the idea of the return of magic, since that was part of Rumple's plan, and he was somewhat foiled when he learned that it didn't work outside the town, when the whole purpose of using the curse to travel was retaining his power. But why did they have to give Regina back her power so quickly? She initially didn't have power in spite of the return of magic. She had to get it by huffing the book. Regina on a level playing field might have been more interesting.

 

As for the way the writing tends to go, it kind of reminds me of one of those jokes that went around the Internet a lot in the mid 90s (I think it was originally from Readers' Digest). It was supposedly the result of a writing assignment in which two students, a boy and a girl, were assigned to write a round-robin story, in which each of them contributed a sentence or paragraph and then the other picked up the story from there, going back and forth. The girl was trying to write a Jane Austen-like story in which people had witty conversations over tea, and the boy was trying to write a space adventure, and it lurched wildly back and forth between these extremes with each paragraph, as aliens invaded over tea and then people had witty conversations with the aliens, and so forth. But this show seems to be going back and forth between a pre-teen girl who wants to write romance but thinks that "romance" amounts to a lot of kissing, and a boy who's not all that interested in writing an actual story, but just keeps throwing in big twists to make it more challenging for the other writer to pick up the thread. Neither of them are interested in writing conversations or doing any set up or worldbuilding. So it lurches from big twist that comes out of nowhere to kissing scene to action scene and twist that comes out of nowhere to kissing scene.

[KingOfHearts]

 

How would Henry get there on his own? No one can get there without Rumpel's blood. Since Rumpel went with them, there's no way for Henry to follow. The writers' explanation is just stupid.

When they're using Henry's logic in their own defense, you know there's a screw loose somewhere.

[Faemonic]

I'll definitely agree that these episodes flow as though none of the writers really communicate with each other.

 

Replying more in the Continuity thread.

 

Edit to add: About Henry not being able to follow the Nevengers to the Underworld, I really think we can't wrangle limitations like that anymore when travel between realms was supposed to be so impossible...and "dead is dead". And Hook is supposed to be gurney dead, not merely Shady's Shadow's stolen dead, or Zelena's soul-storing phylactery of Deathly Hallows dead, or even Anastasia just needs to be watered to become undead.

Edited December 29, 2015 by Faemonic

[GreyBunny]

 And apparently, now Hell is not the same as the Underworld.  Ooookay...

 

In some pagan religions the underworld is just the place where the dead go, it's not inherently good or bad, just another realm.  Though it looks like the writers here are referencing someplace unpleasant.

Edited December 30, 2015 by GreyBunny

[jhlipton]

This article bemoaned the end of the stand-alone episode in TV series nowadays:

http://www.macleans.ca/culture/television/the-stand-alone-episode-meets-its-end/?google_editors_picks=true

 

Do you agree?  Is this one of the problems with "Once Upon a Time"?  Are the writers restricted by not including filler in seasons?

Truly stand-alone episodes have been gone for quite some time -- virtually every show has some progression from one episode to the next.  The question is really "How much does the major arc matter to the episodes?"  Almost all shows will do a "one-of", an episode not really tied to the major arc (such as the horrid Merida-centered episodes).  But they have to really good and at least tangentially tied to the major arc (X Files was good at this).

[Jul 68]

Truly stand-alone episodes have been gone for quite some time -- virtually every show has some progression from one episode to the next. The question is really "How much does the major arc matter to the episodes?" Almost all shows will do a "one-of", an episode not really tied to the major arc (such as the horrid Merida-centered episodes). But they have to really good and at least tangentially tied to the major arc (X Files was good at this).

I remember when NBC/U insisted that Battlestar Galactica do only stand alones (I think it was S2) so they could more easily sell it to syndication (which never happened) and it nearly killed the show prematurely. Fortunately RDM fought back and saved the show. Those were the worst episodes. Today's audiences want arcs. If we wanted all stand alones, we'd watch much more 1/2 hour comedies/dramadies. Many of those even have overall arcs these days.

[Shanna Marie]

I was watching the pilot of another series (that will remain nameless and whose details will be vagued up the avoid spoilers) On Demand, and after the episode they had a "behind the scenes" feature with interviews with the writers that made me think of what's wrong with the writing on Once. In the pilot of this show, they spent a good amount of time establishing the community that one of the main characters lived in, introducing the people there and establishing the main character's relationship with the various people. That kind of community is a bit of a genre trope, and it looked like the show was going to be about that community, but then at the end of the pilot, that community was destroyed and the main character and a few others were left, so it turned out that instead of being a show about the community, it was a show about survivors. The writers said in the feature that they thought it was important to establish the community and the main character's relationships so that the loss of the community would matter. The audience needed to feel a sense of loss, and we also needed to know what that loss meant to the character. So although none of those scenes really mattered to the plot and weren't essential to the twist, they were what made the twist matter, so we understood the kind of loss the character faced. Without those scenes, the twist would have merely been a plot device to get the main character on his own, but we wouldn't have known if he felt lost, if he was glad to get rid of those losers, if that place really felt like home or was a place he was just stopping by, etc.

 

And that's what the OUAT writers don't seem to get, that those character moments and non-plot-related conversations may seem boring in a vacuum, but they're necessary to get the full impact of all those crazy twists. Like the fact that they've barely had any scenes between Hook and Henry, and all those scenes were directly plot-related, so we had no idea if Henry even liked Hook as a person, and that meant we had no idea how the Dark Hook stuff affected Henry. He looked all stricken at Hook's death, but we don't know if that was just because it's awful watching anyone be stabbed in the gut with a sword, if he was feeling bad for Emma, or if he felt a personal loss. Robin, the Charmings, and Regina are going along to the Underworld, but we have no idea why, other than that the script said so. Robin's had maybe two conversations with Hook. Snow was kind of standing up for him, but we have no idea what she actually thinks of him or his relationship with Emma. David tends to go back and forth, but we don't know what he really thinks of Hook or the relationship this week. Is Regina going out of guilt?

 

Or take the Rumple/Belle breakup #436 -- all we ever seem to see that couple do is talk about how much they love each other, break up or be broken up, and then get back together again. We have no idea how they actually work, what they talk about, what they do when they're not breaking up. Heck, she spent most of their honeymoon either frozen or asleep. They had that one dance scene that was obviously fanservice to remind us that they're Beauty and the Beast, but we didn't see them really interacting as a couple in a way that shows us what their life together is like. I seriously doubt they spend their evenings at home dancing around the living room. They don't even bother giving us 30 seconds of showing us how they work together in the shop before other characters barge in to demand Rumple's help with something. I think we've had more "normal" conversations between Belle and Hook than between Belle and Rumple. So how are we supposed to feel when they break up and get back together yet again? Are we supposed to feel a sense of loss for their relationship and a sense of relief that they're back together again, or are we supposed to be glad she's kicked him to the curb and roll our eyes when they get back together again? We need to see the "normal" before we can know how we should feel about the effects of the plot.

[KingOfHearts]

3B defined that the characters were fine with living in Storybrooke and battling monsters. By 4B, it became a joke. Minus Hook, they're essentially living in their status quo. A&E do nothing to make us wish on the characters' behalf that there aren't threats going on. For the citizens, it's just day-to-day life and they only take it seriously at inconsistent moments. There's no consequences - only guest baddies and red shirts die. All the parents are happy to abandon their children to go on deathly missions. A&E don't understand that if there is no risk, there is no reward either. I'm fine with some predictability, but the characters shouldn't know what will happen. Sadly, they act like they've been given the script and will make choices accordingly.

 

"Should we actively do something yet? No wait - it's not the penultimate episode yet. Better run around stupidly until the deus ex machina is introduced."

[Faemonic]

The dearth of establishing emotional resonance is probably the biggest reason that I don't watch this show anymore. I haven't been watching most of this show, I mean. Mostly...I watch references for fan meta, and only then when it's absolutely necessary. It's understandable that other viewers are flabbergasted or even annoyed that fans would hypersignificate every breath or look, or break down a scene to the nanosecond...but, uh, I suspect that there wouldn't be much to it if fans don't do that?

I only watched the episodes between Nimue and the mid-season finale, because Nimue sounded as though she posed an interesting ethical question (according to comments here, quoted tweets) and Birth because...I believe my reaction was "Whaaat? So, Dark Swan lasted naught point two seconds and was a fake-out all along?" But I'm not watching for my favorite characters anymore, or even for the shinies. I adored Arthurian legend, and I knew TS;TW wouldn't do it justice, and while I liked Nimue as a stand-alone...I'm glad that I haven't watched the rest, not even for extra baby Emma I keep seeing animated GIFs of. Even Hook's stopped being the street-smart, charismatic figure whose centrics were the only reason I bothered to tune in, and I am not happy that the whole arc is about him instead of Snowing and Emma. He's my favorite character, and I'm not appreciating the focus on him. How did that happen.

Edited January 6, 2016 by Faemonic

[Free]

3B defined that the characters were fine with living in Storybrooke and battling monsters. By 4B, it became a joke. Minus Hook, they're essentially living in their status quo. A&E do nothing to make us wish on the characters' behalf that there aren't threats going on. For the citizens, it's just day-to-day life and they only take it seriously at inconsistent moments. There's no consequences - only guest baddies and red shirts die. All the parents are happy to abandon their children to go on deathly missions. A&E don't understand that if there is no risk, there is no reward either. I'm fine with some predictability, but the characters shouldn't know what will happen. Sadly, they act like they've been given the script and will make choices accordingly.

 

"Should we actively do something yet? No wait - it's not the penultimate episode yet. Better run around stupidly until the deus ex machina is introduced."

 

Definitely, the characters themselves don't even care and it's become formulaic with the others just standing around doing nothing which is what they do every climax of each arc.

[Rumsy4]

 

that the whole arc is about him instead of Snowing and Emma.

 

Unfortunately the writers have decided that they don't care about Emma's relationship with her parents. What kind of crappy writing is it to not have Dark Emma interact with her parents for 10 episodes?  But this arc was not about Hook. His turn as the DO was super-rushed. The writers did spend a lot of episodes on Emma struggling with resisting Clippy!Rumple until the climactic moment where she asserted her self-worth to Nimue (I am not nothing). This arc also had a lot of Captain Swan relationship development, with the focus on Emma finally taking down her walls to becoming as hopeful as her parents in love. I loved Emma's glowing expression in the final scene, as she was stepping up to the boat-from-hell. My problems with the writing had more to do with the poor use of the Camelot characters and the odd insertion of Merida into the narrative. Another poorly-developed sub-plot was Rumple's brief flirtation with being a hero (which was already done in the Storybook AU in the S4 finale). It all comes down to A&E's ADD style of writing, where they just can't seem to focus on one or two things, but end up juggling 10 different sub-plots involving 20 different characters. 

[Free]

Unfortunately the writers have decided that they don't care about Emma's relationship with her parents. What kind of crappy writing is it to not have Dark Emma interact with her parents for 10 episodes?

 

Oh they stopped caring about them seasons ago, they're pretty much on par with Granny and the dwarves nowadays in terms of standing around doing nothing.

 

It all comes down to A&E's ADD style of writing, where they just can't seem to focus on one or two things, but end up juggling 10 different sub-plots involving 20 different characters.

 

Ironically, the whole point of doing a split arc was supposed to help with that.

[KingOfHearts]

 

It all comes down to A&E's ADD style of writing, where they just can't seem to focus on one or two things, but end up juggling 10 different sub-plots involving 20 different characters.

Every arc does have one or two major points that get more focus, but for all the build-up they receive they don't get any satisfactory payoff. Time is often shuffled off to creating subplots, but those don't get executed well either. A&E try to stretch everything out socialistically, but in the end there's no effort or anything meaty put into any particular storyline. Camelot took the stage away from Dark Swan, then it didn't get any conclusion. Dark Hook came in guns ablazing, but it didn't have any decent groundwork to hold it up. 4B was full of stories that went nowhere too.

Edited January 7, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[RadioGirl27]

Some fans keep blaming Hook and CS for the lack of development of Emma's relationship with her parents, but that's not true. A&E stopped caring about that relationship long before CS were together. If it wasn't Hook, it would be someone else (like Elsa in 4A). They just don't care about it.

[Free]

Every arc does have one or two major points that get more focus, but for all the build-up they receive they don't get any satisfactory payoff. Time is often shuffled off to creating subplots, but those don't get executed well either. A&E try to stretch everything out socialistically, but in the end there's no effort or anything meaty put into any particular storyline. Camelot took the stage away from Dark Swan, then it didn't get any conclusion. Dark Hook came in guns ablazing, but it didn't have any decent groundwork to hold it up. 4B was full of stories that went nowhere too.

 

Definitely, Dark Hook lasted only 2 episodes and the DOs ended up doing nothing after they were built up as well.  Then there's the Merida filler episode which didn't even bother wrapping any of those subplots up.

[Faemonic]

I'll never blame Hook for being (oh, no, is he really now?) the Writer's Pet, but of course I would blame the writers for positioning and developing any of their main characters in such a slipshod way that makes the whole story suffer.

[KingOfHearts]

I've already ranted about The Cricket Game before, so now I'm just going to look at the writing aspect. Upon rewatch, I had the context of 2A fresh in my mind. Regina's redemption up to 2x09 was gradual and had few witnesses. Logically, with Emma and Snow returning and missing her character development, it was logical to test it. Additionally, with Cora coming, it made even more sense. The basic concept of what this episode was trying to accomplish I can agree with. But it's the execution (no pun intended) that leaves the writers' true agenda bare.

 

The characters are twisted into pretzels in order to manufacture contentions toward Regina. Now, all of them have legitimate grievances against her that need to be explored in order to move on. But those are not what this episode utilizes. Instead, there's frame job where the audience knows Regina is innocent from the get-go. Every accusation and suspicious is framed as ill-founded, even to the point that Emma doubts it straight up until hard evidence is given. Judgement of character doesn't get much more specific besides, "She was evil in the Enchanted Forest." Snow especially has every right to be cynical, I get that. But Emma remarks in the episode that the evidence is so prevalent that it has to be a setup. I feel the same way about A&E intentions - everything is laid out so obviously that you know it's a purely artificial attempt to make the audience sympathize with Regina. All the modesty in 2A is thrown off the rails, so much so that every line of dialogue hits you like a sledgehammer. 

 

The character writing is so confusing. Snow and Charming's army burns down a whole city/fortress/castle, then Snow makes this big deal about "you can't come back from killing", as if their troops never killed anyone. Emma gets in a fight with Regina over Henry staying the night, then later she plays devil's advocate and defends her. Charming, who worked with Regina in 2A and let Henry hang out with her, cries foul on her attempts to change all of a sudden. Oh and don't forget that Dr. Hopper breaks doctor-patient confidentiality and tells people about his sessions with her. Regina herself is all over the map too - one moment she attempts to cooperate, then another she's yelling at people, then another she's sitting sad in the corner. Conflict is fine, but when every character doesn't work logically or know how to feel, what are we supposed to get from that?
 

2A was very straight-forward with its adventure and character development. The Cricket Game is jarring because it takes everything good about it and throws it out the window. (Except for the Cora/Hook scenes.) If it didn't focus so much on woobifying Regina and instead lent equal validation to both skepticism and faith, it wouldn't have been so bad. Snow and Emma's return was definitely not dealt with enough.

Edited January 8, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

I'll never blame Hook for being (oh, no, is he really now?) the Writer's Pet, but of course I would blame the writers for positioning and developing any of their main characters in such a slipshod way that makes the whole story suffer.

There are different kinds of writers' pets that lead to different kinds of results.

 

One is what you could call the Mary Sue -- I know the term has become overused and has taken on some seriously misogynistic overtones as a way of saying "female character who isn't in her rightful place on the sidelines" but I'm going closer to the original meaning of the term as a self-insert or, more broadly, as a character who may as well be a self-insert because of the way the writers lose all objectivity where this character is concerned. She gets all the good things without struggle, suffers no consequences for her bad actions, and frequently gets to come out of nowhere to save the day in spite of being established as being less capable in that situation than other characters. I doubt that Regina is actually a self-insert for these writers (unless they have a really interesting self image), but they treat her like she's a real person and it hurts them to see her suffer. The problem with this kind of character is that she's really not that interesting and it's hard to build a story around her. If you decide that she needs a love interest and instead of her having to meet people, get to know them, and try to build a relationship with the ever-present risk that it might not work out and it could lead to heartbreak, you just sprinkle some pixie dust and show her the guy who's her guaranteed soulmate, you don't have a very interesting love story. If you throw in an obstacle, like his long-lost wife, you lose all drama and conflict if you then decide that his wife is actually an impostor. A redemption arc that consists of the character declaring that she's a different person now and all her former victims agreeing and becoming her best friends isn't much of a story. When writers have a character like this, it can kill the story if she plays too big a role -- who really wants to watch someone getting everything she wants without having to do anything? -- or it ends up pushing the character to the side if they do become aware that her stories lack drama. Look at 4B -- it was supposedly about Regina's quest for her happy ending, but they resolved that by having Marian turn out to be Zelena, so she didn't need help, after all. Instead, the drama of the arc mostly centered around the fact that Rumple needed to turn Emma dark for his plan to work and that led to a rift with her parents (since Emma is allowed by these writers to suffer). They can't actually put Regina front-and-center in a story without letting her really suffer, and they seem to prefer sidelining her and resolving her issues quickly and easily over making bad things happen to her over the course of an arc.

 

The other kind of writers' pet is the character/actor who's fun to write for. It may be a character who has lots of inherent conflict with other characters or a mysterious or complicated backstory that leads to lots of story potential, or it may be an actor who can do great things with the material, which makes writers want to give him more to do. You can generally tell this kind of writers' pet because this character actually tends to suffer more. He's the one who gets his heart broken, who has to make sacrifices, who is genuinely misunderstood or who really screws up and then has to fight his way back. This character can end up taking over a show, and whether that's a good or a bad thing depends on how it's handled and whether you as an audience member like this character. I think it's possible that Hook has become this character on this show, whether because Colin has chemistry with everyone and delivers the goods or whether they're enamored of the idea of turning a character like Captain Hook into a hero, or maybe a little of both, possibly even with some network notes relating to focus group reaction. They seem to find good guys boring, but a good guy with a dark past who goes through all kinds of torment gives them a hero they find interesting.

[Curio]

One of the scripts that was released was from 4x14, when Emma arrives at her parents, and asks them why they didn't tell her before that Regina was missing (this is when Snow asks Regina to go undercover to see what those inept queens were up to). There's this in the script that didn't make it to the screen;

Mary Margaret: But you were over at Hook's, I didn't want to...

Which basically is happening on the heels of the argument Hook and Emma had during the day over him lying to Emma about his past with Ursula. And then they had the nice discussion, and we see them walking down the very empty streets of SB, smiling, and laughing. My bitch isn't about the dialogue being cut, because we can all assume whatever we want from that scene, and Emma showing up at the loft as though she hadn't seen her parents since she left them the previous night. My problem is with Adam's reply when he was asked about it.

This looks like an early draft of the scene. We changed it because it was too flippant of an attitude given the dire situation

Here's my problem with this reply. In 4x08, Emma's magic went to the shits, and Regina was off with Robin (playing grab ass in the crypt) while everyone else was out all night looking for Emma because they were really worried about her. Then when she was out on the search party in the evening, and got a call or text from Robin, and Mary Margaret gave her her blessing to go to Robin after the whole cringeworthy discussion about cheating, and how it's not cheating, and so on.

Isn't this flippant too? If I put it in the Adam's context, this is actually worst than a stupid line about where Emma spent the night.

Honestly, that whole episode needed to be a bit more flippant. The whole vibe of the episode was so weird because everyone was out of character and over the top freaking out about Regina playing "Mean Girls" with the Queens of Darkness. A flippant attitude was perfect in that scene. A flippant attitude was perfect for that entire episode! Regina was only gone for one hour, people! Yet, the writers tried to make Regina's situation into this deathly serious thing (a "dire" situation if you want to quote Adam), when in actuality, all Regina was doing was taking shots and playing chicken on some train tracks. That's not dire, that's pathetic.

There's a huge disconnect between what the writer was thinking in the script versus what was shown on screen. In the script, after Mary Margaret and David mention that Regina hasn't checked in for an hour, the writer adds his own inner dialogue and says something along the lines of, "Oh fuck. Emma finally gets it." This is the complete opposite reaction I had as a viewer. When someone doesn't check in for an hour, my initial reaction isn't "Oh fuck," it's, "Hmm, odd. Maybe they'll check in soon. I wonder what happened?" But because the writer added in all those extra "Oh fuck! Oh no!" tidbits in the script, that's probably why Jennifer reacted so over the top in her reaction to Regina being missing—she was just going off of the writer's attitude about it.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Curio

[Rumsy4]

JMo's acting choices seemed over the top in that episode. I donno, whenever she played Emma being Regina's "friend" in season 4, it seemed forced and artificial. It's better in Season 5.  But really, with the material they had to work with in 4B, it's probably hard to make it into something natural. 

[Camera One]

She had to act that way because the scripts' mantra is to have her saying stuff like "I was just looking for you to be my friend." and "They don't know what it feels like to be rejected and misunderstood not the way I do, not the way you do. And somehow that makes us I don't know unique, or maybe even special." There's no way to make that not sound artificial.

Edited January 10, 2016 by Camera One