The Writers of OUAT: Because, Um, Magic, That's Why

[Camera One]

because I couldn't care less about Maleficent and Lily.

 

Really?  I'm still weeping over their sad story.

[Faemonic]

 

 

because I couldn't care less about Maleficent and Lily.

 

Really?  I'm still weeping over their sad story.

I liked them, too, but then again I only caught up after Poor Unfortunate Souls. I was afraid that it would be like Dr. Whale's backstory with Cora and Regina sobbing on each others' shoulders in the car, and I was all, "Two kickass awesome sorceresses reduced to...this." I guess it's technically the Dishwashing moment that I've read a lot of OUaT fan-critics clamour for, but I just paid more attention to the newcomer characters, Flashback!Whale (technically a newcomer?) and his brother who I guess could be proto-Liam?

 

But back on topic to the writers...I saw Lily and Maleficent, and I liked their relationship, and I remembered the rest of 2B, and I went NO.

 

No, no, you're not pulling me back, Show. Me viewing next season is a major no-go. You ruined Rumbelle after Belle shrugged off Milah's death (and I hated Milah!) You ruined Regina's redemption arc (which I could actually buy in early, early, early 2A!) You got your swag back in Neverland that probably not as many people watched because #SaveHenryWhy but 3B was so meh even with the Captain Swan fanfiction-movie. Your version of Frozen made the movie better but the show worse (Emma gets stigmatized for her Light Saviour Magic that supposedly comes of being a product of True Love???) There was all this buildup to Emma's darkness but her actually turning dark came way out of left field and I need to stand on my head and squint to interpret that as brilliant dramatic irony.

 

You're not pulling me back, Show. Not even for King Arthur, I mehhhed at what you did with Oz. I like Lily and Maleficent, they have more heart in their half-season than Snow and Emma could ever get back...and I know you're going to either ruin or completely ignore them, Show.

Edited July 24, 2015 by Faemonic

[Souris]

Really?  I'm still weeping over their sad story.

 

Here, need a tissue?

Edited July 24, 2015 by Souris

[fictiongoddess]

I've been binge-watching Arrow recently, and had some thoughts about OUAT. Arrow uses flashbacks in each episode, but always makes them relevant to the current plot and overall character development so that they add rather than subtract from the story. I suspect it takes a fair amount of detailed planning so it all ties together over the course of the series, but the effort is well spent as it raises the quality of the short and long story arcs. With OUAT, I find that some of the flashbacks, especially starting with season 2, seem shoehorned in and detract from rather than add to the story. If I could, I'd order all OUAT writers to watch Arrow specifically to study the structure and planning evident there.

[Camera One]

Welcome to Wacky Writer Philosophy 101.

 

I think we got the mission statement of the nitpick thread and perhaps this entire forum, courtesy of Adam today:

 

Adam Horowitz ‏@AdamHorowitzLA
@EmmasDagger @JaneEspenson it allows you the viewer to take what's on camera and connect the dots in your head.  Fun!

Edited July 29, 2015 by Camera One

[Mathius]

I get what he's going for, and it should be fun in theory and often is in practice with other shows. The difference is the showrunners and writers on those shows are COMPETENT, and are always sure that THEY at least know how the dots connect even if they decide to withhold that knowledge from the viewer so as to allow speculation. Adam and Eddy have proven time and time again that they don't have the dots connected in their own heads, so how the Hell is it supposed to be fun for the viewers to? Good lord, these two are frustrating...

Edited July 29, 2015 by Mathius

[Mari]

Yes.

What makes me as angry as the Regina!Regina!Regina! attitude is the way they splatter the "dots" hither and thither, and then completely ignore them to run towards the feathered octopus in the corner.

 

A large part of the fun in TV for me is whether or not I can put the pieces together.  There's no point when the writers don't even bother to make sure that what they're writing is consistent and fits together.

[Faemonic]

If I could, I'd order all OUAT writers to watch Arrow specifically to study the structure and planning evident there.

I think they're already doing the best they can. It's like trying to give M. Night Shayamalan a sense of humor by showing him Legend of Aang.

 

Welcome to Wacky Writer Philosophy 101.

 

I think we got the mission statement of the nitpick thread and perhaps this entire forum, courtesy of Adam today:

 

Adam Horowitz ‏@AdamHorowitzLA

    @EmmasDagger @JaneEspenson it allows you the viewer to take what's on camera and connect the dots in your head.  Fun!

That's not so wacky. If the characters just kept expositing what something was really supposed to mean, and made their motivations and consequences as subtle as a rain of anvils, then that wouldn't be good writing either. Especially not television writing where you're supposed to Show, Don't Tell. Prose can get away with editorialization. I also cannot respect the act of a creator (not even J.K. Rowling) who would say offscreen or otherwise outside of their work how something in their work worked, or what an event really meant, or a character's motivation. If they left all of the viewers to take what's on camera and connect the dots, then I believe that's as it should be, even if viewers connect the dots differently.

 

I don't believe even the creators need to know what, say, Father Flynn did that could be mistaken for molestation in Doubt (or if that would not even have been a mistake.) My town's community theater staged that play, and sometimes the actor played Father Flynn as if he had done the crime, and other times he didn't. The playwright had nothing to say about it. I think that's fine.

 

BUT WAIT. All of This Show's characters do talk in exposition, and the creators do supplement the work with their personal vision that somehow they couldn't work into the actual thing that they're actually doing, so even if leaving the audience or even the actors to connect the dots themselves were as it should be that is not what they are doing.

Edited July 29, 2015 by Faemonic

[Mathius]

I don't believe even the creators need to know what, say, Father Flynn did that could be mistaken for molestation in Doubt (or if that would not even have been a mistake.) My town's community theater staged that play, and sometimes the actor played Father Flynn as if he had done the crime, and other times he didn't. The playwright had nothing to say about it. I think that's fine.

Cases like those are special, I think. You generally need to know your own puzzle and connect your own dots if you want your audience to try to solve it, but if your puzzle ends up having several valid solutions and you can't decide on just one, then yeah, it's fine to leave it ambiguous even to yourself which solution is the right one.

A&E's puzzles don't have several valid solutions. They just have none at all.

[Rumsy4]

The problem is A&E want it both ways. They want the audience to connect the dots behind the scenes so to speak, but they also get puzzled when the audience interpretations differ from their own "vision" because they've left too many dots unconnected.

Edited July 29, 2015 by Rumsy4

[Curio]

Adam Horowitz ‏@AdamHorowitzLA

@EmmasDagger @JaneEspenson it allows you the viewer to take what's on camera and connect the dots in your head. Fun!

 

Yes, but what happens when the dots are so vague that there's no way to connect them? Am I really supposed to sit here as an audience member and wrap my head around the concept that Emma hasn't confronted Regina about Graham's death yet? Or is that a case of #ItHappenedOffScreen and I have to "connect the dots" in my head to explain how Emma could feasibly be friends with this person after knowing that information? Is it acceptable for me to say it's canon that Regina wiped Emma's memories of Graham's death because there's no way they're ever going to address that on screen? Can I finally create my head canon graphic novel of Hook's adventure to get the magic bean now? 

Edited July 29, 2015 by Curio

[KingOfHearts]

You take someone like Regina, who fans have very polarizing views of. Different viewers interpret her redemption and life story differently. But the characters on the show are explicitly affirming one view, and that's that she's a hero who deserves a happy ending. The writing is so desperate to convince us of it that it can't stop repeating it. A&E would love to think of themselves so clever that their work is open for interpretation, but that's rarely the case. Everything on the show is laid out so obvious that it makes the audience feel stupid, or it's not touched on at all. It's more black and white than they describe.

[Curio]

Responding in the Regina thread.

[tri4335]

The show is full of telling a POV that does not match the action they show on the screen and they are shocked that us lowly fans can't understand what is happening. Becasue they don't connect the dots for their actors, directors, and sound editors (they want their surprise twists) nevermind the audience., we get the scene played one way , for example, when Regina crushes Graham's heart, LP plays that scene as vengeful and the music reflects that take on the sceen too, and then we're told via interviews or even better Twitter that she was remorseful and was conflicted about that action. 

 

Due to the constraints of TV, I expect and understand that things will happen offscreen but I can't figure out why all the payoffs need to happen offscreen.  If it wasn't for the talented actors on this show I would have ditched it long ago....as it is now I can genrally watch the parts that interest me in 10 minutes or less.

[Souris]

I think Adam may be having a Twitter breakdown.

 

I would not be surprised if he peaced out of Twitter soon. Frankly, he probably should.

 

Somewhere, Eddy is patting himself on the back for never engaging with fans on Twitter.

Edited July 30, 2015 by Souris

[Amerilla]

It's getting to the point where someone needs to stage an intervention.

[Deleted]

Edited July 30, 2015 by Amerilla

[Souris]

Holy crap, how did my link link to THAT tweet? That's over a month old! I wasn't anywhere NEAR that tweet when I copied & pasted the URL.

 

Let's try again…. (And I fixed the original bizarre, bizarre link.)

Edited July 30, 2015 by Souris

[CatMack]

Does anyone know what the tweet was the he's apparently deleted that caused people to accuse him of saying Zelena didn't rape Robin?

[Souris]

Yeah, somebody misspelled raped as "rapped" and he made a very unfortunate jokey response about rapping and Zelena not being much of a rhymer. He really should not have made a joke in response to a question about rape.

[Faemonic]

I'm sorry that Adam is having a Twitter breakdown from people picking on his continuity, which is a craft issue rather than a social/morality issue. But I connected it in my head that Rumple's main motivation for continuing to make shady deals and swap his engagement dagger was his trauma from finally being commanded by Zelena, which he's avoided for 228 years or so...That wasn't fun, that was frustrating. A one-line payoff in the car with Regina doesn't hint at something more to Rumple's machinations than that. If we'd seen him waking up from nightmare about Zelena, and then going off to make shady deals with Ingrid, and then backing out on those deals, "Because I need Emma Swan's power in that hat now there's no time, there's no time!" Then we'd wonder why trauma is on a time limit, and realize that it's not so it must be something else. Blah blah dishwashing blah August tells Snow, "I'm a real boy!" Snow tells August, "Good for you! My heart is almost rid of its dark spot because David loves me!" Fans groan and wish that had never been brought up again, but it has to be because it's a Clue. Blah blah 40 mins of Captain Snog blah Rumple brings out his own dark heart. Boom! Constellation named.

 

Or people thought that Regina might have been infertile because of her body and not because of the time-stopping aspect of Storybrooke meaning that nobody could give birth. At first, I fretted because that theory seemed to be motivated by some stigma against adoption, like she had to have either been infertile, or too vain to get fat for nine months. When the infertility was canonized, my reaction was more, "That would have made so much more sense than Daniel!" Just set it earlier, with Cora pushing for Regina to make a dynasty, and Regina drinking the infertility potion to spite her mother (for killing Daniel). Now Cora wants to puppet Young Snow the future queen, her only option. Snow wonders when Regina's going to give Leopold a spare to the heir, because Snow would rather cede the throne to a Princess Regent (or Prince Regent, why not) than rule as a queen. Regina tells Snow that isn't going to happen. Snow tells Leopold that isn't going to happen. Leopold threatens to set Regina aside because of it, without actually being threatening because Leopold. Regina sees both Cora's affections and Leopold's goodwill getting away from her, blames Snow for being "the pretty young one mummy loves better" and for snitching secrets, Regina kills Leopold, frames Snow and drives her away, banishes Cora to Wonderland, and is now all alone except for SparkleDark-sensei. That's why she wants to adopt Hansel, Owen, and Henry. Gretel and Paige remind her too much of Snow. Snuff out anti-adoption accusations with Bio-Mum of the Year, Cora. Make Baelfire Milah's biological son from her first marriage and not blood related to Rumpel at all. Most people already predicted that Regina was infertile, but not many knew that she did it to herself.

 

Dots. What are dots, even?

Edited July 30, 2015 by Faemonic

[Serena]

Holy crap, how did my link link to THAT tweet? That's over a month old! I wasn't anywhere NEAR that tweet when I copied & pasted the URL.

Let's try again…. (And I fixed the original bizarre, bizarre link.)

That links to Adam's replies and not one specific tweet.

Why is he choosing this particular hill to die on? But chooses to ignore the rapey Mills elephant in the room? The world may never know.

[Souris]

That links to Adam's replies and not one specific tweet.

 

Yeah, I wasn't intending to link to a specific tweet, more everything he was tweeting at the time.

[Shanna Marie]

Oh dear, shouldn't they know by now to never, ever make a rape joke or make a joke about anything related, or make a joke when someone else is talking about rape? That's like human interaction 101, whether online or in person. Careers have been ruined over that kind of thing.

 

As for the "connect the dots offscreen" thing, the trick is that you have to establish a pattern or be given clues in order for that to work. We don't need to see David learning something, then see the scene where David tells Emma that same information, then see the scene where Emma tells Hook. We may be able to assume that Hook will eventually know what David learned without seeing each scene -- unless it's actually been a plot point where these people don't tell each other things, so we can never know for sure whether this is a case where we can just assume that information gets passed on to everyone who needs it or a case where people aren't telling each other for various plot-related reasons. With that kind of inconsistency, we can't connect the dots accurately, so we need to get some kind of indication onscreen, like seeing David get out his phone and hit the Emma button, and then later seeing Emma and Hook together, with the conversation picking up on next steps so we can tell they've talked about it without having to see the conversation with the same info being repeated.

 

With this show, they really don't have a lot of leeway for Offscreenville because there are so many cases of people not sharing information or keeping secrets that we can't ever assume anyone has talked about anything. They're also inconsistent with the characters, depending on what the plot needs, so either Snow is someone whose major character trait is that she can't keep a secret to save her life and that's caused her endless trouble, or she's someone who can keep a major secret from everyone around her and not give the slightest sign that something's going on, even when facing similar situations that you'd think would make her crack. Or Zelena is either a cackling crazy who sabotages her own schemes with her need to mwa ha ha at her victims or she's able to carry off subtle psychological scheming for weeks without ever giving herself away.

 

You have to have dots to be able to connect them. On this show, some of the dots are in invisible ink. Some of them are snowflakes. Some of them aren't actually dots but are dust that got on the screen. Some of them get erased, and then they pretend they never existed.

[Camera One]

We don't need to see David learning something, then see the scene where David tells Emma that same information, then see the scene where Emma tells Hook. We may be able to assume that Hook will eventually know what David learned without seeing each scene -- unless it's actually been a plot point where these people don't tell each other things, so we can never know for sure whether this is a case where we can just assume that information gets passed on to everyone who needs it or a case where people aren't telling each other for various plot-related reasons.

The ironic thing with the missing pieces between the dots, is as I think Faemonic alluded to earlier, we get a hell of a lot of wasted words devoted to explaining stuff we already know. Sometimes, conversations that we DO see onscreen don't even feel like conversations because they're written to be review sessions to catch people up. All those conversations in 4A about Rumple cleaving himself from the dagger, or about Operation Mongoose and giving Regina her happy ending. Ditto for 4B, and the endless and repetitive exposition about The Author and darkness, or having the characters vocalize and telling us that Snowing is feeling so guilty, or Regina has tried so hard but keeps coming up empty.

This show's writing feels a lot like empty calories because of these types of conversations, and it leaves less time for scenes that dig a little deeper.

Edited July 30, 2015 by Camera One

[Amerilla]

Why is he choosing this particular hill to die on? But chooses to ignore the rapey Mills elephant in the room? The world may never know.

 

Ha, yeah, it's a mystery.

 

I thought the way he backpeddled and deleted his tweet last night showed that the criticism over Graham's rape at least penetrated the outer layers of his conscience. He at least knew he was about to step into dangerous territory. Progress. Not enough to stop him and his team from writing rapey storylines, but.....baby steps!

 

From what I've seen, there are at least a couple of things at play here:

 

First, I think Adam (and Eddy) fall into that fairly big population of people who think men can't be raped by women, because even if a man doesn't want that particular woman, a man always wants sex. Call it the "Graham May Not Have a Heart, But He Still Has a Dick" defense. 

 

Second, I think they view this as fantasy and fluff, so they don't think the normal interpretation of human behavior applies. It's the Evil Queen and the Huntsman! She literally has his heart! It's the Wicked Witch and Robin Hood doin' the nasty! In Manhattan! There's a glamour spell involved! This is the "It's Magic, Yo" defense.

 

This show's writing feels a lot like empty calories because of these types of conversations, and it leaves less time for scenes that dig a little deeper.

 

This sort of plays into Adam's Twitter meltdown too, because I honestly feel like the show thinks most of its audience is too dumb (or too young) to follow what's going on, so they have these monotonous visits by the Exposition Fairy to keep us dumb-f**ks up to speed. Then Adam gets pissy at that segment of his audience that really is paying attention.

[KingOfHearts]

 

The ironic thing with the missing pieces between the dots, is as I think Faemonic alluded to earlier, we get a hell of a lot of wasted words devoted to explaining stuff we already know.

You know, if they have to constantly explain it point-blank over and over, it's probably not good storytelling in the first place. If you have to repeatedly give your audience lengthy expositions just to keep them in the know, then the plot is likely too convoluted or nonsensical. Even the most analytical watchers were confused by the Author plot, yet the characters kept trying to lay it out for us. Oddly enough, they ended up giving incorrect information. They kept saying it was about getting Regina's happy ending, when that was totally irrelevant when push came to shove. 

 

Exposition should be smarter than characters giving speeches repetitively. 

[KAOS Agent]

 

Second, I think they view this as fantasy and fluff, so they don't think the normal interpretation of human behavior applies. It's the Evil Queen and the Huntsman! She literally has his heart! It's the Wicked Witch and Robin Hood doin' the nasty! In Manhattan! There's a glamour spell involved! This is the "It's Magic, Yo" defense.

 

To some extent I agree with the "It's Magic" defense, but that only goes so far. I can roll my eyes and get really annoyed at the magic spell or item that creates havoc or fixes everything, but still recognize it's a fantasy show and just go along with it. Where the defense falls down is when they mine the fallout of the use of magic for drama and try to pretend that the drama is only limited to one aspect of the fallout. So Robin is raped through magic and now Zelena's pregnant and there's huge baby drama, but the drama is only supposed to be relevant to Regina. Pay no attention to the normal human emotions that should be flowing through Robin and how he should be reacting to this because it was magic! It wasn't real! Except there's a baby and the baby's real and we want you to see how much this baby is affecting Regina. You can't have it both ways. Even if we ignored the rape and had them write a story where Zelena magically stole Robin's sperm and inseminated herself, there's still the emotional fallout of having something so personal stolen from you. It doesn't matter whether magic is involved or not. The fantasy aspect always has to be grounded in real human emotion. It's why the premise of the show was so intriguing. Fantasy characters living in our world and experiencing the non-fantasy of the real world. 

 

I have to wonder if ABC focus groups and market research hasn't shown A&E that the Robin/Zelena magic rape storyline isn't at all popular and that made him more defensive than he should be, so he tries to brush it off with a joke as a defense mechanism. I'd be willing to bet that ABC did do some research to get some answers about why the show lost half of its audience last season and the showrunners are well aware of what the audience thought of their "master storytelling." Given what I was seeing from even the most positive members of the fandom, it wasn't good.

Edited July 30, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[Shanna Marie]

The ironic thing with the missing pieces between the dots, is as I think Faemonic alluded to earlier, we get a hell of a lot of wasted words devoted to explaining stuff we already know.

They really don't allocate screen time wisely. So in three consecutive episodes we get almost the exact same scene between Rumple and Hook, the "when the stars in the sky align with the stars in the hat, I will cleave myself from the dagger, now go say your goodbyes, dearie, because it's your last night alive" bit. But meanwhile, there's a lot of offscreen dot connecting, where most of the dots are printed in invisible ink.

 

Onscreen: Anna asks what kindly Mr. Gold's Enchanted Forest identity is.

Offscreen:

Anna learns that Gold is Rumple and reveals that sometime in the past, he did something bad (shocking!) and had a scheme involving a magic hat that she took away from him. Somehow, this leads Emma and the others to realize that Rumple is that very minute up to something horrible that must be stopped. The Arendelle gang apparently head home anyway instead of wanting to help their Storybrooke friends. Emma somehow figures out that she needs to go to the library.

Onscreen: Belle finds the gauntlet and realizes this means Rumple lied to her in the past about trading it for her (never mind that lots of stuff seems to have ended up in the shop without it necessarily having been in his possession pre-curse)

Offscreen: Belle uses the gauntlet to realize that the dagger is Rumple's true love, not her. Or maybe she realizes she has a fake dagger. Or maybe she wants to check a book on Camelot out of the library and notices that something weird is happening in the tower. Anyhow, somehow she gets to the library and manages to get into the tower without being seen coming up the stairs.

 

That's not connect the dots. That's "here's a blank piece of paper, and I think there might be a pencil around here somewhere, draw your own picture, freehand."

 

And it's not just the repeated conversations that pop up in every episode. They also devote a lot of screen time to stuff that ends up making no difference to the outcome, like all the time wasted on getting the ribbons off when Elsa and Emma don't end up using that capability at all. Or even the Shattered Sight spell, where the only lasting consequence is Ingrid's death. No one else dies or is hurt or even gets hurt feelings that last beyond the spell. They devoted an entire episode to something that didn't affect the status quo for the main characters. All this while not bothering to show us scenes that do affect the outcome and that do change things.

[Curio]

And it's not just the repeated conversations that pop up in every episode. They also devote a lot of screen time to stuff that ends up making no difference to the outcome, like all the time wasted on getting the ribbons off when Elsa and Emma don't end up using that capability at all.

Don't forget the entire episode wasted on Regina pretending to be a "bad girl" with the Queens of Darkness that was completely useless because they found out about her being a mole anyways.

 

They also devote time to having conversations between characters that are flat out incorrect. Ironically, it happened twice with Hook's character in Season 4. First, he mentioned to Rumple that Emma told him about Belle's secret meeting with Anna in the Enchanted Forest, when he was actually standing in the room listening to Belle. Wipe out that dialogue and save 10 seconds. Second, Hook says to Belle he hadn't seen the dagger since she last had it in the clocktower, but that's clearly wrong when he saw Regina use to to let the nuns free. Save another 10 seconds right there. Add up those 20 seconds and give them to Emma for an extra 20 seconds to say goodnight to Hook before she ditches him for some shots.

 

I honestly believe I'd enjoy Once Upon a Time in Offscreenville more than the regular show at this point. 

[Camera One]

They also devote a lot of screen time to stuff that ends up making no difference to the outcome, like all the time wasted on getting the ribbons off when Elsa and Emma don't end up using that capability at all.

 

Again, maybe it's a matter of their writing method being making a list of the characters and giving each of them something to do (even if it's pointless), instead of deciding on each character's journey and emotional endpoint and how that episode would bring them there.

 

With that same episode ("Shattered Sight") as an example, what exactly was the point of the entire subplot with Hook trying to find Henry, Henry calling him a dirty pirate and Hook/Will's encounter.  Henry ran off and was never seen until the end of the episode.  This was simply providing something for Hook and Henry to do.  

 

The same can be said for how they used Regina/Snowing in that episode.  In that case, it might be their go-to writing strategy #2, "wouldn't it be cool if..."  In this case, wouldn't it be cool if Evil Queen Regina and Snow had a fight in Storybrooke during the Shattered Spell curse?  Since there was zero point in that exchange, even if it was fun.  

 

Plus it made Emma and Elsa look idiotic and careless for not even attempting to reseal Regina in the vault before running off after those pointless ribbons were cut.  Evil Queen Regina could have massacred half the town while she was free.  But later, at the end of the episode, they're walking arm in arm laughing as if they already knew the carnage in town was zero.  The writers don't make any attempt to think about the wider implications of what's happening, from the redshirts in town, to the characters' own natural worries and reactions.

Edited July 31, 2015 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

With that same episode ("Shattered Sight") as an example, what exactly was the point of the entire subplot with Hook trying to find Henry, Henry calling him a dirty pirate and Hook/Will's encounter.  Henry ran off and was never seen until the end of the episode.

That scene is a perfect case study of the #ItHappenedOffscreen setup/payoff problem.

 

It could have been a very emotionally moving scene if there had been any setup to it, if we knew what the relationship between Hook and Henry really was. We don't know if Henry at all meant anything about what he said, if he knows just how much he means to Hook, if Hook might have taken what he said to heart or if he knew that was just the spell and not Henry. Because #ItHappenedOffscreen, we don't know if they've bonded or if Henry just tolerates Hook for Emma's sake. We don't even know if Henry has any idea of Hook's relationship with his grandmother. If we'd seen that their relationship has been difficult, that Hook is trying and Henry is resisting, then that scene might have been painful because we'd know it's like kicking Hook when he's already down, and Captain Self Loathing may know intellectually that it's mostly the spell, but he'd also know there's a kernel of truth in there (though it's actually a pretty weak insult if that's Henry seeing the worst in Hook). If they've had a positive relationship and have bonded, then it's a different kind of painful because someone who normally loves Hook is being nasty to him, and Hook would have to realize that this might be the last time he was going to see someone who meant a lot to him, but he can't even say a proper farewell because the kid hates him right now. But since #ItHappenedOffscreen, the scene's just kind of there, with a "ha ha" Home Alone moment and a weak insult.

 

And then there's no payoff because it doesn't affect the plot at all. No one even seems to find out that Hook tried to kidnap Henry. No one notices that Hook didn't seem to be affected by the spell. Will doesn't recognize the signs of having no heart. Henry doesn't find it odd that Hook tried to kidnap him. It's like it didn't even happen. While I appreciate that the relationship between Hook and Emma is fairly low-drama, with stuff like this not getting in the way and with no big misunderstandings turning into roadblocks, there's something weird about manufactured drama without the drama. So there's the blackmail plot that threatened to ruin their relationship that as far as we know she never knew about, his desperate voice mail confession that he's sure will make her hate him that she never hears, his attempt to kidnap Henry that she apparently never learns about.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I've noticed many times that the writers focus more on what works per episode rather than look at the bigger picture. That's why we have so many retcons and inconsistencies in plot and characterization. They made David all the more of an ass to Hook in Good Form so the the turn-around at the end of the episode would be more dramatic

From a writing perspective, it's a matter of putting plot over characters. The cast of the show is a range of very unique histories and personalities. I don't find any of them to be bland or ordinary by design, but the problem is that they don't utilize it. They would rather put square pegs in circular holes to make an episode or arc work than explore the characters as a whole over time. If you have interesting characters with complex backstories, a lot of the story should write itself. You should not have to throw in magic glitter and shiny guest stars constantly to keep the audience's attention.

 

Snow was raised to be a queen, watched her own mother die at a young age, got a stepmother who despised her, got kicked out of her own kingdom, was almost murdered several times, fell in love with a pseudo-prince and went to war to get her kingdom back. Then she was forced to abandon her child, got cursed for 28 years including an adulterous affair, found her child to be her adult best friend, and killed her step-grandmother with traumatic regret.  So what do the writers do with all this? The freaking egg-napping story! I could give examples for every single main character showing how under-utilized they are.

[Camera One]

Yes.  Each of those ordeals that Snow lived through should have had severe psychological effects, and would have current effects on her outlook and on her relationships with Emma, David, etc.  Even the issues that A&E made up for the first time in 4A (the stuff the Snow Queen said to Emma), the fear of Emma's magic, being paranoid over what would happen to the baby, trying to juggle parenthood and work, reassuming a leadership position in the community... each of those could have easily sustained storylines in 4B without the need to make up the contrived and idiotic egg-napping story, which was all plot without actually adding anything to Snow and David's characters except to once again say they were hypocrites. 

Edited August 20, 2015 by Camera One

[Camera One]

In the audio commentary Jane does say she loves writing for Regina as she has such interesting reactions to things - "she goes from zero to 60", and Jane says it's such fun to write for characters like that, and Lana loves Jane's scripts.  

 

The bar scene between Regina and Robin was meant to be the same bar that Emma and Neal had the drinks in Manhattan, but they couldn't get the bar, so they made the set specifically.  They even made sure that Regina and Robin sat in the same seats as Emma and Neal - I don't really get why they want to have Regina/Robin have the same or similar moments as Emma/Hook - they did the same in the finale with the hand bandaging scene, coz to me Regina/Robin always come off looking 2nd best and it just looks kind of desperate from the writers…….

 

These writers' ways of thinking is even more warped than I intentionally thought, LOL.  

 

Name one in a million fans who would have even thought about Emma and Neal in that scene.  Might as well have paralleled a scene where they were all breathing oxygen.  Maybe they should have put more thought into the lines spoken by Robin and Regina in that scene instead?

 

And writing characters that go from "0 to 60" is fun I'm sure.  Still doesn't justify the scene of Regina murdering a groom in the context of that episode.

 

Natural and believable character arcs seems to be the last thing on the writers' minds.

Edited August 23, 2015 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

I see A&E aren't the only ones who have a low story attention span. I agree that Regina is probably fun to write as fast and loose, but the "fun" isn't earned.

Edited August 23, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

That's probably what keeps taking me out of her redemption arc too.

[october]

And writing characters that go from "0 to 60" is fun I'm sure.  Still doesn't justify the scene of Regina murdering a groom in the context of that episode.

 

It's especially troubling when Regina is going from 0 to 60 to threaten a small boy or almost summoning a fireball when her recently resurrected murder victim calls her a monster. It'd be one thing if Regina's wrath was focused only on villains and people threatening her and her loved ones. But her venom is indiscriminate. And all this while she's being called a 'hero' and having people scramble to get her a happy ending. It's been said elsewhere, but I'll say it again: You can't have a healthy and safe relationship with a person who'll most likely lose their shit and hurt someone if they don't immediately get what they want

Edited August 23, 2015 by october

[tennisgurl]

That has always been a huge issue with Regina, and how much the writers love her. They want the best of both worlds. They want the evil queen, and all her snarky fun and rage issues, but they also want woobie Regina with her sad tears and all the characters wanting to be her best friend. They want it all, but none of them seem to notice it leads to REALLY wonky characterization. 

[Camera One]

I thought when writers write, they have to ask "why" and how does it relate.  How does killing that groom and never mentioning it in the entire episode contribute to Regina's realization at the end that her mother was right and she was responsible for her own unhappiness?  What about the unhappiness of others?

 

In addition, Jane was tasked with writing this climactic episode "Mother" where the various plot threads are wrapped up.  Now why did she choose not to write Snow and Charming apologizing to Lily?  They made such a huge deal of this in a previous episode with Maleficent saying they need the forgiveness of Lily.  Shouldn't that have been a priority?

 

Again, it seems to point to a complete lack of planning on the writers' part.  There should be a list of the various milestones that the various characters should go through in so and so an episode in order for the arc to work especially for an episode meant to close out the various arcs they started.

[Actionmage]

In addition, Jane was tasked with writing this climactic episode "Mother" where the various plot threads are wrapped up.  Now why did she choose not to write Snow and Charming apologizing to Lily?  They made such a huge deal of this in a previous episode with Maleficent saying they need the forgiveness of Lily.  Shouldn't that have been a priority?

 

This bit of info makes me so angry on Ginny and Josh's behalf. They signed on to play Snow White and Prince Charming, yet they are consistently character assassinated because the writers think they are boring characters. ( Forgetting why the characters seem boring. Hint: The characters really don't write themselves, people who write for the show.) I had stopped watching live by then, except for the Bizarro World ep.

 

Also, in conjunction with the above: It wasn't a priority because a) it was Snowing, b) they spoke the words to Mal already, so why waste screen-time with essentially the same scene (::rme::), and c) it was/ will be explained away as done off-screen or -- and this is just a wild guess on my part-- it will be a disposable scene somewhere awkward in the season premiere.  A line and a head nod, the apology and a sneer, something like that.  That is, if it's remembered at all.

[Faemonic]

I thought when writers write, they have to ask "why" and how does it relate.  (...) There should be a list of the various milestones that the various characters should go through in so and so an episode in order for the arc to work especially for an episode meant to close out the various arcs they started.

 

Unfortunately by now I've figured that if we're still watching, it works. If each script fills 45 minutes of screentime, it works.

 

It would be great if they took more care planning it, if the standards of each writer for a finished script of an episode were higher than "done", if the continuity editor (because they have one in the credits) actually did the job, if they had some thematic unity that tied up neatly, or at least emotional payoff...but it's not that kind of show.

 

It's well-funded fanfiction, a whole body of it. The domestic AU, the Bizarro AU, the Mary Sue, Draco in Leather Pants plus Ron the Death Eater, the slapdash motivations, the rushed storyline, the flashbacks that rarely serve any purpose anymore, the character vignettes, the magic that works because of magic, the lack of internal consistency, the retroactive continuity, the stream-of-consciousness exposition speech scenes, writers who don't have much of a care or concept of character voices, the willful ignorance of moral implications bafflingly combined with ambitious morality plays, and some works or arcs left unfinished but others are already making a sequel anyway...

 

Not that fanfiction itself is a bad thing, of course, but I think the biggest problems with fanfiction come up in this professional work and might have the same root. Since the first season ended, they haven't been storytelling since they don't seem to really have a story to tell...they've just been playing with the toys that Uncle Walt gave them.

 

It's probably better for everybody's blood pressure if we stick to congratulating the writers for how far they've gotten, rather than continue to get aggravated about what could have been done better. Evidently, though, I find staying positive about a show that I'm still a fan of just too challenging.

Edited August 25, 2015 by Faemonic

[KingOfHearts]

They tend to write for a specific audience. Mostly Evil Regals, hardcore shippers and fans who really only want eye candy. The deeper Lost-esque writing was dropped in S2 because like others have said, they ran out of ideas. The writers had a plan from the start that probably went all the way to Neal. After that, mostly in 2B, you could tell they were just winging it.

They've admitted themselves that they only plan season to season. In Lost, they strategized where the story would go all the way from S3 to S6. From all the flip-flopping, I don't think A&E even have broad strokes scoped out for the long term.

[Rumsy4]

Adam and Eddy were quite low in the totem pole of LOST writers. From my recent LOST rewatch/podcast marathon, it seems Eddy always wanted to focus more on background characters like Frogurt and Nikki/Paulo. 

 

I think Adam and Eddy did have a plan for the OUAT, but they just tend to get way too distracted by new "toys". Particularly from Season 3 onwards, there's been too much focus on short-term characters. Why did we need three Queens of Darkness for 4B, again? 

[KingOfHearts]

 

Why did we need three Queens of Darkness for 4B, again?

Even when that sounds excessive, the story wasn't even about them. They were accessories to other plots. If three Big Bads is a lot to stomach, try the Zarian triangle, Lily, evil eggnappers, Rumple and the Author right on top of it. Honestly I would have rather gotten more QoD than any of that. You don't just pile on three new characters with unique backgrounds and market them as the face of 4B, only to throw them under the bus midway. When they introduced us to them in 4x12, it was obvious that they were the selling point.

 

The writers dropped them so spontaneously that it caused the arc to lose a lot of consistency. The first and second halves of the arc have completely different stories they're revolving around. It's a shame because the stories they chose to focus on are a lot less interesting than the villainesses. Apparently the queens didn't bring enough intimidating gravitas, so they had to bring Zelena and an Evil Queen flashback in to boot.

Edited August 25, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Delphi]

They've admitted themselves that they only plan season to season. In Lost, they strategized where the story would go all the way from S3 to S6. From all the flip-flopping, I don't think A&E even have broad strokes scoped out for the long term.

But who writes like that? What serialized television show, or novels even go into a project and not create a map of where they want it to go? Most shows have at least a three year plan. JK Rowling had the entirety of Harry Potter planned. The writers of Arrow have a five year plan.

I understand altering your plan if something isn't working or if you get swept up into a legal rights issue. But they write the show like it's a 90s Internet chat room role play and change directions whenever they get writers block over a certain idea.

[Curio]

But they write the show like it's a 90s Internet chat room role play and change directions whenever they get writers block over a certain idea.

 

That is fantastic. Also—accurate.

 

I think Adam & Eddy do have an endgame plan they're slowly building towards, but it's probably just a vague final shot of everyone in Storybrooke finally happy and celebrating Emma's birthday or something. Everything that comes before that can be changed willy nilly. I sometimes wish ABC would tell them how many seasons they have left so they can plan ahead like Lost, yet somehow, I doubt that would change their frenetic style of writing.

[YaddaYadda]

I think they just don't know how to write for the characters they have and that's what it really comes down to. They have also decided that conversations between characters is dreadfully boring even though that's what really made season 1 awesome.

[Shanna Marie]

It's well-funded fanfiction, a whole body of it. The domestic AU, the Bizarro AU, the Mary Sue, Draco in Leather Pants plus Ron the Death Eater, the slapdash motivations, the rushed storyline, the flashbacks that rarely serve any purpose anymore, the character vignettes, the magic that works because of magic, the lack of internal consistency, the retroactive continuity, the stream-of-consciousness exposition speech scenes, writers who don't have much of a care or concept of character voices, the willful ignorance of moral implications bafflingly combined with ambitious morality plays, and some works or arcs left unfinished but others are already making a sequel anyway...

Hee, this is too true. We're just missing the episode in which Regina listening to a sad song on the radio triggers a flashback in which the Evil Queen is so misunderstood . And I'm surprised that they've held off on the hurt/comfort trope -- and with Regina's healing ability, that makes it difficult to have the episode in which she's stranded with a wounded Robin. Unless we get the one in which Regina is wounded and Robin has to fuss over her until they get rescued. Or does dying Rumple with his charcoal heart being fussed over by a tearful Belle count as H/C?

 

In the audio commentary Jane does say she loves writing for Regina as she has such interesting reactions to things - "she goes from zero to 60", and Jane says it's such fun to write for characters like that, and Lana loves Jane's scripts.

As a writer and as someone who's studied acting, this utterly baffles me. I guess as an actor if you just want to unleash yourself and get crazy, it might be fun, but it's not as though there's any craft to it. Anyone can play someone who suddenly just goes nuts for no good reason. Ditto for writing -- there's no craft to it. You just suddenly switch gears to have the most extreme reaction to anything. More interesting would be the reactions from the people around someone like that. If there's a person who does go from zero to 60 all the time and have extreme reactions, then everyone else would be walking on eggshells, or else deliberately provoking her because she can't be thinking too clearly in that state and it would be easy to get something past her. A subtle character is far more interesting to write, and probably even moreso without the benefit of interior monologue. How can you convey what's going on without relying on showy gestures or scenery chewing?

[Rumsy4]

They have also decided that conversations between characters is dreadfully boring even though that's what really made season 1 awesome.

 

This boggles my mind! A&E have mentioned in several interviews that viewers are always asking them to add character scenes, and yet, they are utterly convinced that the fans "won't really like it". This is the kind of feedback you need to listen to to improve your show. Yes--we will actually enjoy a scene of Captain Hook and Emma watching netflix together, or Emma and Snow chatting about stuff while washing dishes in the sink. I always compare OUAT to Eureka, which was a Sci-Fi show that had a million plots going on all the time. And yet, the characters managed to have those "boring" kitchen-sink conversations so important for well-rounded character development in between dealing with time travel, alternate realities, and existential crises. 

[Camera One]

The other problem is A&E actually thinks they put character scenes in.  They think a 30 second scene that feels more like a recap is "diving into" the characters.

 

 

 

I sometimes wish ABC would tell them how many seasons they have left so they can plan ahead like Lost, yet somehow, I doubt that would change their frenetic style of writing.

 

Strangely, this is one show where this would not make an ounce of difference.  More than half of the regular characters on this show have nothing more to build to.  They've already reached their major milestones (often not dealt with, they just happened).   You can tell knowing when the ending in won't help by their pacing for each half-season.  They still don't plan ahead, resulting in every emotional payoff being either ignored or stuffed into the finale or the penultimate episode (meaning wrapped up in a one minute scene, and that's if the character is lucky).  

 

The good aspect of that is they can probably spin their wheels for a couple more season and we'll still get a plateau of quality (except for Snow and Charming... I'm not sure how dragging them in the mud is going to look in three seasons).

Edited August 26, 2015 by Camera One