The Sleepy Hollow Therapy Thread - What went wrong with Sleepy Hollow?

[methodwriter85]

The closest I can think of for me is Heroes.  I loved Season 1 but bailed right before S2 ended and never looked back.  At least Tim Kring had the wherewithal to admit that he understood fan criticism of S2 and even some of the mistakes they made.  I don't see Goffmann doing that.

 

     Witchblade, which had a spectacular season 1, absolutely imploded during season 2 and didn't get a second season. Partly due to the star's Yancy Butler's personal addiction issues, but partly because the show ran screaming away from the homoerotic subtext that a lot of the fans had gotten into during the first season and did everything they could to assert Sarah's heterosexuality at every turn.

[ChelseaNH]

then they changed it to suit one untalented producer's whims and fantasies

The "they" who changed it is the "one untalented producer" who is in charge of the show.

 

How is it a surprise that people are reacting negatively?

It isn't.

 

Therefore, he could only continue the premise of the show - or change (in stronger terms, hijack) the original premise.

The dissonance isn't over "premise" but over "hijack."  The word "hijack" means that you take control of something which doesn't belong to you through force.  It's not just a stronger version of "change."

 

Shows change.  Even successful ones.  Sometimes they change for the better, sometimes not.  There is no fixed commitment that the show you see the pilot is the same show you'll get until cancellation.  In fact, it often takes a show half-a-dozen episodes to hit its groove and take on a lasting shape.  Sleepy Hollow was unusual in not experiencing those early growing pains, but that doesn't make the show immune to problems with the usual seasonal rejiggering.  Which network executives have always been involved with, and are not always right about.

 

For example, Abbie being trapped in Purgatory wouldn't have to equate to Abby sitting around waiting to be rescued.  (This is where everyone jumps in and tells me how horribly Goffman would have screwed it up.  Not interested, because it's all speculation.)  It could mean Abbie having her own story line, making her own discoveries, finding new allies and influencing events from her own side.  Meanwhile, Ichabod would be forced to rely on his other allies -- Jenny and Irving.  Even though the chemistry between Abbie and Ichabod is the most consistently entertaining part of the show, separating them would allow the show to flex some different storytelling muscles.  We'll never know if the plans they abandoned would have worked out better than what we got -- maybe the network made the wrong decision after all, or maybe they were right about the audience losing interest if we didn't have our weekly dose of Ichabbie banter.

 

The point is, nobody knows how things are going to turn out when they make plans.  No creative enterprise is predictable.

 

And you're letting us know it's hopeless?

It's not hopeless to want things to improve.  It's pointless to construct a story out of the events, to turn the parties involved into characters with intentions and motivations.  When journalists attempt to do that, they have to speak to a variety of people with a variety of perspectives; you can't construct an accurate history from a single viewpoint.  It's even more pointless to make predictions about what will happen, let alone pin your hopes on those predictions.  I'd like the show to get better, and that might not happen.  Or it might happen in a way that doesn't interest me, but makes other people happy.  That would be disappointing.  But then, I've got my season 1 DVDs, and nobody can take that from me.

Edited January 4, 2015 by ChelseaNH

[jhlipton]

For example, Abbie being trapped in Purgatory wouldn't have to equate to Abby sitting around waiting to be rescued.  (This is where everyone jumps in and tells me how horribly Goffman would have screwed it up.  Not interested, because it's all speculation.)  It could mean Abbie having her own story line, making her own discoveries, finding new allies and influencing events from her own side.  Meanwhile, Ichabod would be forced to rely on his other allies -- Jenny and Irving.  Even though the chemistry between Abbie and Ichabod is the most consistently entertaining part of the show, separating them would allow the show to flex some different storytelling muscles.  We'll never know if the plans they abandoned would have worked out better than what we got -- maybe the network made the wrong decision after all, or maybe they were right about the audience losing interest if we didn't have our weekly dose of Ichabbie banter.

 

That might have been interesting -- what was the dollhouse, and why was it important to Abbie, for instance.  But from what I've read, Goffman wasn't interested in those stories -- he wanted Abbie side-lined to focus on CFD.  

[DearEvette]

Seriously.  How would Abbie being trapped in Purgatory have made this season any better?  She's not in Purgatory and still she feels minimized in some ineffable way.

 

I just re-watched Midnight Ride/Necromancer and I could seriously weep at how much the show has changed.   The action, the seemless teamwork of Team WTF.  Abbie & Ichabod holding onto Headless, while Jenny and Irving were dealing with the Hessians at the power plant, while Andy was doing something  else.  The funny "destroy Headless' head" montage, the Sally Hemmings discussion cut scenes.  So much happened in just two episodes!  I could cry for realz.

[HalcyonDays]

For example, Abbie being trapped in Purgatory wouldn't have to equate to Abby sitting around waiting to be rescued.

 

This is true...

 

How would Abbie being trapped in Purgatory have made this season any better?

 

This could be true....for this reason:

 

Abbie in Purgatory could have been an exploration of why she is a Witness, what in her life led her to her path, and why she was chosen. It would have been a lot of flashbacks, the Mama episode, her fight against the horrors of Purgatory, etc...

 

This could have easily happened...but guess what? Then they would have "sidelined" / minimized Katrina's story. Because if Abbie was in Purgatory, you would have half of the show's time spent on Abbie and her experiences, and half of Ichabod and Jenny and maybe even Irving trying to rescue her.

 

So it could easily be done. And in hindsight, SHOULD have been done. Especially if we included the mirror in Molochs lair, where Abbie could easily contact Ichabod.

 

But that would again, mimimize the witch. And apparently a certain show runner wouldn't dare consider that.

 

(And to not be a total bitch, maybe FOX really did force Goffman's hand, but he and his little minions could still have written better material for ALL of the characeters.)

[phoenics]

The dissonance isn't over "premise" but over "hijack."  The word "hijack" means that you take control of something which doesn't belong to you through force.  It's not just a stronger version of "change."

In the way that I used it - I meant it to be. Can we please stop nitpicking that and can you or could you try to simply accept what I said as the way I keep saying I meant it? For me, I meant "hijack" as a stronger version of change.

You can disagree that the writers "stronger version of change"-ed the show, or not - but I really don't want to discuss the hijack/premise nitpick anymore - it feels like you're picking at me and it's extremely frustrating. Stop.

[phoenics]

For example, Abbie being trapped in Purgatory wouldn't have to equate to Abby sitting around waiting to be rescued.  (This is where everyone jumps in and tells me how horribly Goffman would have screwed it up.  Not interested, because it's all speculation.)  It could mean Abbie having her own story line, making her own discoveries, finding new allies and influencing events from her own side.  Meanwhile, Ichabod would be forced to rely on his other allies -- Jenny and Irving.  Even though the chemistry between Abbie and Ichabod is the most consistently entertaining part of the show, separating them would allow the show to flex some different storytelling muscles.  We'll never know if the plans they abandoned would have worked out better than what we got -- maybe the network made the wrong decision after all, or maybe they were right about the audience losing interest if we didn't have our weekly dose of Ichabbie banter.

First of all - my reaction to this wasn't necessarily to say Goffman would screw it up. My reaction would be to say that I wouldn't trust that Goffman wasn't trying this in an attempt to marginalize Abbie so he could push his favorite character, Katrina. He's said that she's his favorite many times - so it's hard for me to read the above and feel like it would have any real purpose other than to try to separate Ichabbie in order to prop up Ichatrina/Katrina.

That being said - when Katrina was in Purgatory, the show never managed to really make use of her except for exposition fairy purposes, so I fail to see how this could have worked with Abbie.

Lastly - the show's strength is Ichabbie. Perhaps the Purgatory scenario might have worked in a later season, but I don't believe it ever would have worked this season.

Fan skittishness matters. Last season when Ichatrina left Abbie in Purgatory after Ichabod's betrayal, there was a significant number of fans who felt very, very nervous that we were headed for Twisted Part Deaux. I know some fans don't understand this - but a lot of fans have been burned before by shows and that finale had enough in it to scare off quite a few who just said, "never mind".

The ones who did return would have run screaming at Abbie being left in Purgatory for so long... and as so many others have mentioned, without the Ichabbie dynamic that EVERY. CRITIC. has pointed out as the show's BEST asset, other fans (not even shippers) would have bolted.

Hell - this season with the stilted and disrupted Ichabbie that we have - fans are upset about it.

So no, we'll never know how good the alternate version would have been but based on the craptacular writing I've seen so far in this season, I don't believe it would have been any better and I honestly believe it would have been far worse and fans would have bolted long before "Deliverance" simply because they would have thought "This isn't Sleepy Hollow! Where the hell is Ichabbie?!?!"

Half the comments on Facebook are about wanting more Ichabbie... keeping them separated in Purgatory was never going to work.

That's why so many here have commented that Goffman doesn't understand the show he's running - he keeps trying to make it into a different one.

[phoenics]

This is true...

 

 

This could be true....for this reason:

 

Abbie in Purgatory could have been an exploration of why she is a Witness, what in her life led her to her path, and why she was chosen. It would have been a lot of flashbacks, the Mama episode, her fight against the horrors of Purgatory, etc...

 

This could have easily happened...but guess what? Then they would have "sidelined" / minimized Katrina's story. Because if Abbie was in Purgatory, you would have half of the show's time spent on Abbie and her experiences, and half of Ichabod and Jenny and maybe even Irving trying to rescue her.

 

So it could easily be done. And in hindsight, SHOULD have been done. Especially if we included the mirror in Molochs lair, where Abbie could easily contact Ichabod.

 

But that would again, mimimize the witch. And apparently a certain show runner wouldn't dare consider that.

 

(And to not be a total bitch, maybe FOX really did force Goffman's hand, but he and his little minions could still have written better material for ALL of the characeters.)

Whatever Purgatory story Goffman had in mind for Abbie would have filled up one episode tops - the rest would have simply been her sidelined. He wasn't interested in telling Abbie's story - if he had, then all that stuff would still be able to be partially used - but only that one scene from Mama was used.

EVERY interview given by Goffman leading into S2 has been Katrina-focused - there is NO WAY Abbie would have had any kind of story in Purgatory - she'd have been minimized as much as Jenny and Irving - and honestly she's barely gotten more screen time than Katrina has.

[CinnamonCW]

IIRC, Goffman's comments about Abbie in Purgatory were notably derisive to many. Almost like he was getting in undeserved digs at her because Katrina had spent 200 years in there. I think it was one of the things that raised people's eyebrow when it happened but then was forgotten about until the current mess rolled around.

I have a tough time believing the original plan for Abbie in Purgatory meant a meaningful arc for her. For one thing, see above: Goffman's attitude and disinterest when it comes to Abbie. She's not even an afterthought, she's a non-thought to him. Much of the time even when asked about Abbie he just can't help himself but talk about Katrina instead. The show itself reflects this too and IMO it's because it's how Goffman feels, not something he was forced into. Thus we would have gotten this whether Abbie was in Purgatory or not. After all, it isn't as if he couldn't possibly translate the hypothetical arc originally set for Abbie in Purgatory to the "real world" somehow. Or at least I find that hard to believe.

IMO, this pattern indicates that at the end of the day, we got the story Goffman wanted to tell. I could be wrong; I don't want to think the show-runner sucks. But this is a forest for the trees thing, IMO.

Edited January 5, 2015 by CinnamonCW

[savinggrace]

Yeah, I doubt a storyline with Abbie in purgatory would have been handled with depth or competency. When I look at how inept and poorly written Katrina is and consider that Goffman loves her character I can only surmise that Abbie's character would have been screwed even worse.. It is only because of the fan and critic outcry that he is even going to bother tacking some Abbie-centric episodes on the end of the season-- that is if we are to believe his interviews.

[HalcyonDays]

Alright, let's move on everyone. The word of the day isn't Hijack, and this thread isn't here to define that word or any word, for that matter. Let's get back to excellent dicussions here, without turning into a dictionary or thesaurus. Most appreciated.

[pcta]

Here's the sad thing. I saw that SH was on tonight and I actually felt - Well I should watch it . . . then decided I really couldn't - it's just too much of a disappointment this season. (I made the mistake of buying a season pass on Amazon - so maybe I will watch it someday . . . maybe)

I have been trying to decide why I now find a show that I loved to be no more than a chore to watch. And I guess when all is said and done what I loved was the story of 2 heroes who were witty, caring and charismatic. I loved the people around them who provided their support on their quest. It was a heroes' quest saga with quirk. Now it is a typical soap.

Nothing unique or insightful there I guess. But what a waste!

[DeLurker]

I'm in the same boat (I'm guessing it might be a cruise ship)...I want to watch, but I also don't want to because it might break my little heart to bits.  Not knowing how the ratings tally works makes things tougher too - can anyone clue me in?  Back in the days of yore I think the Nielsen Ratings were actually based on what was being watched in the Nielsen Households and total viewership extrapolated from those numbers. 

 

How and when can I safely watch without it being reflected in the shows ratings?  If anyone knows, I would greatly appreciate it - I wouldn't want to inadvertently have my viewership counted in their favor when I have serious reservations about the direction of the show.  Thanks in advance.

[vanarnd1]

Delurker, it still works the same way you described where the ratings are only taken from Nielsen Households and that sample is used as an estimate for overall viewing. So you should be able to watch on TV and not have it counted since as a non-Nielsen viewer what you watch wouldn't be recorded. The below link goes into more detail for reference.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nielsen_ratings#Criticism_of_ratings_systems

 

I feel the same way you do. I have trouble giving up shows once I get invested so I am still watching Sleepy Hollow, but I am happy that my viewership does not help the ratings because I don't want to reward TPTB for what they have put on screen this season. I wish I didn't feel that way but the current direction of the show has not given me any reason to feel otherwise.

[kieyra]

Agree with vanarnd1, unless you have a Nielsen BOX sitting in your household, you are not part of the coveted few affecting live ratings.

 

Keep in mind that online STREAMING is being taken into account more these days than it was even a year ago, though. So if you want to vote with your wallet but still have a morbid curiosity, live viewing is actually better, assuming you don't have a Nielsen box. 

[phoenics]

DVR'ing the show adds to the +3 and +7 numbers, so don't DVR if you don't want to count either.

I need to go check the spoiler thread - I cannot remember which episode this one is...

[Morrigan2575]

DVR'ing the show adds to the +3 and +7 numbers, so don't DVR if you don't want to count either.

I need to go check the spoiler thread - I cannot remember which episode this one is...

or DVR and delete without watching that gets reported.

[DeLurker]

Thank you all for the responses - I just assumed that with all the current tech and enhanced abilities to track, the process would have been more invasive now.  I watch too much Person of Interest probably....

[savinggrace]

I really don't like when I can see the machinations and wheels turning in a show. The latest "Paradise Lost" episode highlighted that the writers aren't attempting to take us on a journey or build a world for us but instead they are utilizing the show as a vehicle to promote and rehabilitate one character--Katrina. All roads, characters and  ridiculous "redemption" story arcs point back to Katrina. They make sure she's the beginning and end of every plot point to keep her artificially relevant. There's no reason Orion had to have any connection with Headless.  Orion is a potentially great character but isn't being given time to develop because they needed to rush his arc in order to contribute to the Katrina Knows Best stable of incidents.

Edited January 6, 2015 by savinggrace

[DeLurker]

Brought over from Paradise Lost:

And if she is evil, and the heroes don't realize it, that's equally as bad. I'm hoping against hope that since Ichie lists each one of Katrina's lies and manipulations like every other episode

 

1. that she really is evil and

2. our heroes finally put it together.

 

I used to wish this, but as far as I can tell from the show, KW is too inadequate as an actor to make it work.  I'd be afraid she'd become ever-present to some higher degree - I shudder to think!  And then all stories all eps would be centered squarely around her persistent urgent murmur*, her unchanging facial expression** and lack of body language***.  I'd fate if she actually blinked on a regular basis.

 

To give credit where due:

* savinggrace

** Marianne

***Indi

 

I just did a quick image search for Katrina and while a lot of pictures pop up, they are basically the same expression with the most minor deviations (mouth open, mouth closed).  The only variant I can think of is when she's looking smug.

 

and from a day or two ago:

 

7.) Katia Winters is a horrible, horrible actress with no charisma. I mean, even a very limited actress could have at least tried to make this work if she had the right amount of charisma to her. (Susan Lucci is a great limited actress but with enough charisma to offset that.)

MethodWriter - I've come to agree with this, although the writing is at fault too.  And Susan Lucci is a great example - she was completely believable as a self centered, self serving, tantrum throwing ego maniac ex-super model (before the word exisited) despite the fact that she's 5 ft nothing.

[catrox14]

I just realized I have yet to watch this week's episode. This is how much I've lost interest this season when last season it was one of only three shows I watched live, along with SPN and Arrow. Sad times indeed.

Brought over from Paradise Lost:

I used to wish this, but as far as I can tell from the show, KW is too inadequate as an actor to make it work.  I'd be afraid she'd become ever-present to some higher degree - I shudder to think!  And then all stories all eps would be centered squarely around her persistent urgent murmur*, her unchanging facial expression** and lack of body language***.  I'd fate if she actually blinked on a regular basis.

 

To give credit where due:

* savinggrace

** Marianne

***Indi

 

I just did a quick image search for Katrina and while a lot of pictures pop up, they are basically the same expression with the most minor deviations (mouth open, mouth closed).  The only variant I can think of is when she's looking smug.

 

and from a day or two ago:

MethodWriter - I've come to agree with this, although the writing is at fault too.  And Susan Lucci is a great example - she was completely believable as a self centered, self serving, tantrum throwing ego maniac ex-super model (before the word exisited) despite the fact that she's 5 ft nothing.

You know who has the charisma, skill and presence in a tiny package? Nicole Beharie.

[DeLurker]

That fact seems to be something that escapes Goffman et co., despite some pretty heavy consensus in social media, reviews and tv critics.

[TV Juriste]

 

ETA: Wrt contracts talk, Colin Donnell on Arrow got killed in the first season even though he was originally in a 3-year contract like all the other regulars... Nothing is set in stone. Things happen.

WRT the contracts - the actors commit for the entire contract period, but the companies/networks have options to pick them up for the next season or not. Characters can be written off and depending on the actors' contract the actor may have to be paid out for episodes in which he/she didn't appear. One of the battles during contract negotiations is how many episodes the actor is guaranteed. The guarantee doesn't mean the character has to appear because that would impair creativity - it just means the actor will have to be paid. That's why I've cringed when I've seen Orlando show up for 2 minutes in a few episodes, because I'm sure he was guaranteed a minimum number of eps and so they used him as little as possible to satisfy the contract and avoid having to pay him for doing zero work.

[phoenics]

Bringing this over from the media thread...

This is about where I am right now.  I am unable to relax back into SH because I feel like I am going to be disappointed.  So even if an episode is good, I can't just enjoy it because I am always waiting for it to mess up.

This is exactly how I feel. I find myself trying really hard to be positive and to try to ignore the niggling doubt in the back of my mind. I remember doing this early in S2 (and ignoring the fears that something really bad was happening) and then Deliverance happened.

Knowing about the upcoming Katrina-centered episodes gives me the same feeling...

But, I'm trying to be positive - but the show isn't giving me ENOUGH other stuff to overwrite the nagging fears that Goffman won't ever do right by this show. The fact that he even thought what we're getting now is cool still worries me.

I guess I still don't trust him - which makes it hard to enjoy the show because I'm always worrying about when a character will be sacrificed to prop up Katrina. Or worrying about how on earth the show is going to survive without the Biblical Apocalypse. I'm actually disappointed that they didn't go through with that whole story - I still don't understand why they dropped it? I mean - they never even got all 4 horsemen.

I wish someone could explain to me why they dropped that.

[Sparger Springs]

 

I guess I still don't trust him - which makes it hard to enjoy the show because I'm always worrying about when a character will be sacrificed to prop up Katrina. Or worrying about how on earth the show is going to survive without the Biblical Apocalypse. I'm actually disappointed that they didn't go through with that whole story - I still don't understand why they dropped it? I mean - they never even got all 4 horsemen.

 

Well the other 2 horsemen would have showed up and been in love with Katrina. So we were spared that nonsense. 

[savinggrace]

This comment from the TV Juriste review nails the problems and fixes of SH perfectly

 

 

 

• Get rid of Goffman (He broke it.)
• Bring in Roberto Orci to be the show runner (He has the competence and the creativity to make this exciting again.
• Limit writers to the absolute best Damian Kindler, Melissa Blake and perhaps Jose Molina. This will help with continuity and character development.
• Actually plan out the entire season in advance.
• Create a lexicon for the show and actually stick to it. If it say four horsemen are needed to raise Moloch then don't try to raise him with two.
• Follow characters to their logical conclusion this would have voided the Kindred wandering aimlessly for 12 episodes.
• Walk and chew at the same time. Don't add new characters if you can not feed and water all the characters. Hence, no unexplained disappearances of Jenny or filing away of Frank in the hospital. If you can not nurture all the characters then stop creating new ones.
• Don't expect an audience to slog through muck to get a dubious "payoff" at the finale. As some one said this is not a mutual fund.
• Tropes maybe like musical cords but there are many chords but why would you use outdated "old fashion" music for a modern audience. Many tropes are used because they are recognizable but many tropes are racist and sexist too and should be avoided.
• Let Bad Guys be Bad Guys this isn't "Touched by an Angel" For heavens sake how many horrid Bad Guys are on Katrina?s... To be saved list?
• This episode "Paradise Lost" was more about putting out fires that Goffman started than about moving the plot along. He has done so much damage that it really will take a very large and decisive actions to get it back on track. My suggestion:
• Make this the Dallas Dream season... it never happened.
• Start over in Season 3 from Ichabod waking up buried in his box. Let us all escape this nightmare of Season 2

Edited January 7, 2015 by savinggrace

[savinggrace]

For some reason I couldn't add this to the prior post but I think there should be a lot of firings on the writing staff --or at least just the ones who were too "bored" to continue writing about the book of Revelation. The audience was originally sold on that premise and to allow the writers to drop the entire reason people were checking out the show should be enough for Goffman to be fired. The poor pacing, under-development characters and over-abundance of "tell" over "show" suggests that complete amateurs are sitting at the SH writing table. A lot of this season's scripts would not make it out of a Writing 101 Beginners Workshop.

Edited January 7, 2015 by savinggrace

[oliverwendell]

 

the ones who were too "bored" to continue writing about the book of Revelation

 

What?!?  Some of the writers are actually on record as being bored with writing about the Book of Revelation?!?  That thing is a drug-fueled vision quest chock full to the barrel rim with crazy shit.  How can any self-respecting writer working in the gothic fantasy genre fail to find inspiration in there?  That is what went wrong with Sleepy Hollow, to me, if it's true.

[savinggrace]

What?!?  Some of the writers are actually on record as being bored with writing about the Book of Revelation?!?  That thing is a drug-fueled vision quest chock full to the barrel rim with crazy shit.  How can any self-respecting writer working in the gothic fantasy genre fail to find inspiration in there?  That is what went wrong with Sleepy Hollow, to me, if it's true.

 

My thoughts exactly! I can't recall the specific articles but apparently the writers felt "limited" by the Revelations theme and are now relieved to be free from those Biblical constraints so they can tackle random international deities.

[DearEvette]

This comment from the TV Juriste review nails the problems and fixes of SH perfectly

 

Limit writers to the absolute best Damian Kindler, Melissa Blake and perhaps Jose Molina. This will help with continuity and character development.

 

 

i would add Heather V. Regnier to the list of writers to keep.  She wrote 'Midnight Right' and co-wrote 'Indispensable Man' with Damian Kindler and also wrote 'The Abyss Gazes Back'.  She gets some really good Abbie beats in her work.  For instance, 'The Abyss Gazes Back' was the first episode since the S2 premiere that felt like a S1 episode utilizing the characters efficiently.  And it made me feel like Abbie, Jenny and Joe really did kinda grow up together.  It's only weakness was that it was constrained into the Macguffin-of-the-week formula like many of the S2 episodes.

 

It is too bad that Metzner is a bit of a jerk on twitter, because when I think back, 'The Weeping Lady', which he wrote, was one of my top three episodes this season so far (With 'This is War' and 'Mama') .  He also just did this last episode.  And while I wouldn't call this a home run, I liked it more than I have any ep since 'Mama' and I think he is one of the few writers that actually makes Katrina actually  look shady rather than making us want her to be shady.

 

Those hacks that wrote 'Deliverance' though, can go any day now.

[Blackhoney]

This comment from the TV Juriste review nails the problems and fixes of SH perfectly

Dallas became a laughing stock after the dream sequence debacle. Sleepy Hollow can't afford any more bad press about its writing and decision making skills.

[DeLurker]

Dallas' dream season did make them a punchline but the show also went on for another 5 years after it. Even people who never watched Dallas (like me) knew about it and this was In 1985? 86? Social media was literally the water cooler.

It's probably too meta for them to actually do, but with how bad they've handled the story lines it'll be hard to course correct.

[catrox14]

Well that explains everything. Sigh.

[phoenics]

Well - if any show can get away with a Dallas dream scenario, it is SH - the genre would support it... but I do worry that it would be too much. If they could come up with a more creative way to deal with this mess, they need to do that.

[Neurochick]

I see Goffman the same way I see Nolan from Person of Interest.  See, Person of Interest, had a black leading lady but Nolan wasn't having that; so she was killed off to make way for two non-black actresses.  I think Goffman's that type; he has no desire to see a black woman as the lead and probably wishes that he could kill the Abbie character off.  That's why, though I don't like all her shows, I like Shondaland, at least she's not so enamored over non black women, as most white male showrunners seem to be.  

 

That's my story and I'm sticking with it.  

Edited January 8, 2015 by Neurochick

[DeLurker]

 

If they could come up with a more creative way to deal with this mess, they need to do that.

Think they have magic mushrooms in Purgatory?  Maybe Abbie is trippin' bad.

[HalcyonDays]

You know, we keep mentioning Goffman as showrunner taking over, and people want Orci and Kurtzman back, but there was another person that left SH last year. Jose Molina. He was a co-executive producer of the show. I totally forgot about this, but when watching Agent Carter last night, his name popped up as co-executive producer. I remembered him from Castle. I like the guy, quirky and really enthusiastic about the show. He also worked with Mison before on some project.

 

People keep wanting Orci and Kurtzman and the others to come back, by I don't think THEY want to come back. They have all moved on to other projects and if Sleepy Hollow were really something they were passionate about, they never would have left.

 

What I can't help but wonder is why the mass exodus from the show at the end of last year and this season, the head costume designer bailed before seasons end. Just makes me wonder what's going on behind the scenes.

[cassandle]

I'd be okay with a Dallas reset, silly though it may be, if it would restore the greatness of season 1.  Give Tommy Westphall a snow globe of Purgatory and let this whole season happen in his imagination.

[DeLurker]

I had to go look up Tommy Westphall cause I was thinking "the dude in Just Like Heaven?" but that was Jon Heder. But I could roll with a snow globe.

[phoenics]

You know, we keep mentioning Goffman as showrunner taking over, and people want Orci and Kurtzman back, but there was another person that left SH last year. Jose Molina. He was a co-executive producer of the show. I totally forgot about this, but when watching Agent Carter last night, his name popped up as co-executive producer. I remembered him from Castle. I like the guy, quirky and really enthusiastic about the show. He also worked with Mison before on some project.

 

People keep wanting Orci and Kurtzman and the others to come back, by I don't think THEY want to come back. They have all moved on to other projects and if Sleepy Hollow were really something they were passionate about, they never would have left.

 

What I can't help but wonder is why the mass exodus from the show at the end of last year and this season, the head costume designer bailed before seasons end. Just makes me wonder what's going on behind the scenes.

I was lurking on fan forum at some point and read that apparently there was some kind of falling out between the show creators and Fox - which is partly why Goffman was left alone to do the show...

They also ousted the guy who was responsible for leading the charge in diversity for Fox as a network as well.

So some of this mess is Fox's own making... they need to patch things up with the show creators - but they likely won't come back. We're likely stuck with Goffman (and he probably knows that).

I wish I knew more behind what happened between Fox and Kurtzman and Orci - I think that's where the drama happened, but I don't know exactly what happened.

[CinnamonCW]

IIRC there were rumors of a falling out over how 'Scorpion' runs at the same time as 'Sleepy Hollow' which Fox refused to move. But I thought it was only rumors and we don't even know if a falling out even took place.

The Orci/Kurtzman twitter account ( @ abaiers) is active in the 'Sleepy Hollow' discussion on Twitter. In fact they've been about the antithesis of how M. Raven Metzner has behaved. Seeing that just makes me hope they swoop in and fix it.

Edited January 9, 2015 by CinnamonCW

[phoenics]

IIRC there were rumors of a falling out over how 'Scorpion' runs at the same time as 'Sleepy Hollow' which Fox refused to move. But I thought it was only rumors and we don't even know if a falling out even took place.

The Orci/Kurtzman twitter account ( @ abaiers) is active in the 'Sleepy Hollow' discussion on Twitter. In fact they've been about the antithesis of how M. Raven Metzner has behaved. Seeing that just makes me hope they swoop in and fix it.

I hope so...

[DearEvette]

IIRC there were rumors of a falling out over how 'Scorpion' runs at the same time as 'Sleepy Hollow' which Fox refused to move. But I thought it was only rumors and we don't even know if a falling out even took place.

 

i can't blame Fox for not wanting to move Sleepy Hollow.  They had a successful first year with it a time slot that was proven to perform for them.  Most nets won't move a show unless it is under-performing or they are trying pair it with another show to create synergy (kinda like ABC on Thursdays).  Scorpion was the new show, unproven at the time and on a totally different network which Fox had no control over.  For all they knew, Scorpion could have imploded and they would have made a risky change for no reason.

 

Yeah, the show is tanking under the sole leadership of Goffman, but it strikes me as weird that this is one of the battle they chose to pick, especially given how nurturing Fox was to Fringe even though it had started to really decline in ratings by Season 3 and Fox was notorious for yanking shows.

[savinggrace]

I think the timeline on the show is wonky. Did the show ever say how long Jenny was institutionalized? When we meet her in Season 1 she is still in the institution.  I can't figure out how she was working with Corbin from an asylum. Jenny mentioned in one episode that she and Abbie hadn't seen each other in 13 years but Abbie is shown to be like a daughter to Corbin. How would she and Jenny not have seen each other if they were both under Corbin's wing during that time frame?

[Watermelon]

I think the timeline on the show is wonky. Did the show ever say how long Jenny was institutionalized? When we meet her in Season 1 she is still in the institution.  I can't figure out how she was working with Corbin from an asylum. Jenny mentioned in one episode that she and Abbie hadn't seen each other in 13 years but Abbie is shown to be like a daughter to Corbin. How would she and Jenny not have seen each other if they were both under Corbin's wing during that time frame?

Well, Corbin kept the otherworldly things away from Abby, so if Jenny worked with him on that stuff, and Abby was around to babysit Joe, and do the real cop things, I could see how they never crossed paths.  My grandfather lives in the same town as his grandkids, and they never see him. Like Ever. So it's possible.

 

Also, I was under the impression Jenny knew how to break out of the psych ward, if need be.  I could have just made that up in my head, though.

[TV Juriste]

IIRC there were rumors of a falling out over how 'Scorpion' runs at the same time as 'Sleepy Hollow' which Fox refused to move. But I thought it was only rumors and we don't even know if a falling out even took place.

The Orci/Kurtzman twitter account ( @ abaiers) is active in the 'Sleepy Hollow' discussion on Twitter. In fact they've been about the antithesis of how M. Raven Metzner has behaved. Seeing that just makes me hope they swoop in and fix it.

According to industry reports, Orci/Kurtzman had an overall deal at Fox when Sleepy Hollow was created. Now, they have one with CBS.http://variety.com/2013/tv/news/alex-kurtzman-roberto-orci-pact-with-cbs-tv-studios-1200564183/. An overall deal basically involves a studio/net paying a large sum of money to producers/writers and giving other perks (office space, etc). In exchange, those writers/producers pitch their show concepts exclusively to the studio/net. Only if the studio/net doesn't want the idea can  they take it elsewhere. But, given that CBS is now Orci/Kurtzman's corporate homebase, I doubt they will step in to rescue the show/fans.

 

I think we're the kids suffering from a nasty divorce where one parent got a whole new family and moved away. To make matters even worse, I also think I read that Orci and Kurtzman have now split up. 

Edited January 10, 2015 by TV Juriste

[ChelseaNH]

I can't figure out how she was working with Corbin from an asylum.

 

She wasn't.  Jenny was institutionalized after being arrested; that was a fairly recent development.  She was probably travelling a lot when she worked for Corbin.  I suspect she didn't want to see Abbie during this period, so it wasn't just Corbin keeping their work a secret from Abbie.

[savinggrace]

She wasn't.  Jenny was institutionalized after being arrested; that was a fairly recent development.  She was probably travelling a lot when she worked for Corbin.  I suspect she didn't want to see Abbie during this period, so it wasn't just Corbin keeping their work a secret from Abbie.

 

I thought the whole reason Abbie and Jenny were estranged was that Abbie lied about what she saw in the woods and went on to a normal life while Jenny told the truth and was institutionalized? It's been a while so I could be wrong there.

 

The show has a continuity problem and it's rules are so arbitrary. I find it interesting that everyone that we know of who was in purgatory involuntarily was there because they were dead (i.e. Orion, Andy and likely Irving).  Katrina was clearly supposed to be dead in season 1 as evidenced by her tombstone which was inexplicably located in a church graveyard and descriptively engraved "Burnt for witchcraft. Somewhere along the way Goffman and company decided they liked Katrina too much for her to really be dead so they changed the rules so that purgatory didn't mean someone was truly dead. Now we have folks like Katrina and Orion spilling out of purgatory 200 years after death like it's no biggie. It all begs the question what on earth is the point of purgatory? If you're released from purgatory shouldn't your soul go to heaven or hell-- not back to earth as a living creature?

 

I think the show would have been much better off if Katrina resolved whatever unfinished business she had with Crane as a ghost then had her soul released to wherever.

[MissAlmond]

Kurtzman and Orci broke up as a movie team, at the moment they still have their TV partnership although who knows for how long.  I've never expected either of them to come back and rescue SH;  they've both moved on long ago. 

[HalcyonDays]

The show has a continuity problem and it's rules are so arbitrary. I find it interesting that everyone that we know of who was in purgatory involuntarily was there because they were dead (i.e. Orion, Andy and likely Irving).  Katrina was clearly supposed to be dead in season 1 as evidenced by her tombstone which was inexplicably located in a church graveyard and descriptively engraved "Burnt for witchcraft. Somewhere along the way Goffman and company decided they liked Katrina too much for her to really be dead so they changed the rules so that purgatory didn't mean someone was truly dead. Now we have folks like Katrina and Orion spilling out of purgatory 200 years after death like it's no biggie. It all begs the question what on earth is the point of purgatory? If you're released from purgatory shouldn't your soul go to heaven or hell-- not back to earth as a living creature?

 

And that's one of the major mistakes the writers made - never hammering out the mythology of the show. They should have started developing a show "bible", laying out the rules of Purgatory, how the witch covens operate, how witch powers manifest or get suppressed, what happens in Purgatory, what's Moloch's relationship with god, what powers do the witnesses have, how does one become a witness, why is there a connection between certain people, ad nauseum.

 

They had the time - season two writing broke in February. The bible would be a work in progress of course, but some core details should have been decided on and stuck to. It would serve as a skeleton for the show, and episodes would then incorporate those little bits of infomation into the show, building on the SH universe. It would have made their lives much easier too when writing episodes, by having that reference bible.

 

Right now, the show is a complete continuity mess. Nothing makes sense, nothing connects. Which is really too bad because the show could have built a really rich show mythology that could stick in people minds and be something that other shows maybe emulate.

 

I guess it makes sense that Goffman started as a political writer. Throw promises at the constituents, pledge the world and ultimately deliver nothing.