The Sleepy Hollow Therapy Thread - What went wrong with Sleepy Hollow?

FurryFury · December 30, 2014

Hi there. I'm not watching the show currently (stopped at the end of s1), but I have some comments on the subject of writing staff.

As I understand, the original pilot script has been mostly written by Philip Iscove with help from Wiseman, Orci and Kurtzman. I'm quite familiar with the work of Orci and Kurtzman - I feel like I've seen a ton of episodes and movies written by them, and my opinion of them is not exactly high. They aren't "auteur" writers with a strong vision, that's for sure, and it's quite possible that they were brought on to this show just to temporarily oversee the writers of s1. You know, like JJ Abrams usually does nowadays when he's not directing big screen movies (coincidentally, they often work with him).

Now, I can't say I was very impressed with the writing of s1. Some stand-alones were legitimately awful, for instance 1x09 "Sanctuary" (written by Damian Kindler, the creator of a SyFy show of the same name - real imaginative naming here, Damian) was basically unwatchable. I've found the Katrina stuff boring and out of place - and if she was indeed planned to have been killed in the pilot, it definitely makes sense. The mythology behind Katrina wasn't thought out at all and her purpose was murky. But I still suffered through her scenes because I liked Ichabod and Abbie and I had hopes Katrina will either turn out to be evil or die (I feel like those were the only legitimate choices in that situation). But then they've added John Noble's character and I was out. He just didn't work for me, at all, although I do love John Noble as an actor. And after he was revealed to be so important and Katrina still didn't become any more interesting (and hasn't been written out), I've decided to drop the show... Judging by the reactions to season 2, I was right.

Now, even despite my contempt for Kutzman and Orci, they've still done their job, because for the most part, season 1 worked (especially the first half). But looking at the writing credits of s2, it's either the worst writers of s1 like Kindler (and I know this guy's no genius, I've seen his own show), new people or Goffman. Basically, it's not only the supervisor team made up of experienced writers who's gone, the author of the original idea has also left. No wonder the show feels different and I see both the critics and the fans bashing it left and right.

savinggrace · December 30, 2014

IMDB lists the writers for each episode. For Season 1 Goffman is listed as a co-writer alongside Kurtzman and Orci on the 2nd Episode "Blood Moon". He disappears until the 6th episode "The Sin Eater" which introduces Henry the Sin Eater. Goffman skips the next episode then returns for episode 8 "Necromancer" in which we learn the Horseman is just some dude who's butt-hurt that Ichabod stole Katrina. Goffman skips the next episode "Sanctuary" and returns for episode 10 "The Golem" which is heavy on John Noble's Sin Eater. He also co-wrote episode 11 "The Vessel" which was the beginning of the end for Irving with his possessed daughter murdering a priest and a cop. Goffman skips episode 12 and returns for the finale "Bad Blood" where Abbie goes to purgatory in place of Katrina.

Almost all the episodes written by Goffman contain pivotal plot points that created the biggest problems people now have with the show: the now-wimpy Headless, too much Katrina, Crane Family Drama, the disruption of Ichabbie, and the sidelining of Irving.

Edited December 30, 2014 by savinggrace

jhlipton · December 30, 2014

Something else that's going to end - this whole Abbie is a ... 'servant' bullshit. That will END Immediately. If I ask my PoC co-worker to help me with something, that does NOT make them my servant.

With all respect, and you make the final decision, I think that to a major extent, Abbie is being treated as a servant. The key phrase is "If I ask..", with them having the option to not help. Abbie is treating Ichabod (and occasionally Katrina) to room and board. Never have either asked for this help, nor have either ever expressed any gratitude at all towards what she's done. They have taken it for granted, and even been dismissive of her.

I think that to a major extent, they do treat her like a servant. Not a slave or a mammy, true, but I do think that whether she is a servant is debatable.

Thanks.

ETA:

To be fair, I don't think that the majority of actors cast on this show (including Nichole Beharie whom I have seen in numerous films) have an incredible range - they are just very, very good at playing to a specific range/category.

I will respectfully disagree with this as well and as evidence, offer two clips:

Shame [the SFW part...] (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1TGgbAOeBE)

42 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2T7tEU0Iwds)

See also My Last Day Without You and The Mirror Between Us.

Edited December 30, 2014 by jhlipton

HalcyonDays · December 31, 2014

jhlipton, I've responded to your post via PM, as to not derail this thread.

Anyone else with issues, please PM myself or @stacey. I don't want to start a big long conversation on this. Thanks.

phoenics · December 31, 2014

...

Trying to figure out the timeline here. Everything good (first half of the season) was filmed before Goffman arrived to ruin things, but Goffman was the one who made them not kill off Katrina in the pilot as planned -- which was a decision made in the first half of the season before Goffman arrived to ruin things?

It was more that the show as developed had Katrina dying in the pilot - and she was well and truly dead. Then they changed that and then went with a plan to kill her off in the S1 finale. They didn't do that in the end either (and that decision was solely Goffman's).

If you look at the first season after the episodes that Kurtzman and Orci were in charge of - the tone was a bit different. Additionally, the Katrina aspect was different. It was Goffman who came up with the Jeremy arc - which essentially expanded Katrina's storyline. When you throw in Abrahomie - the end result is the expanded canvas benefits the Katrina character and marginalizes the others (Abbie, Jenny, Irving).

If you look at the episodes that Kurtzman and Orci were in charge of and then contrast that with Goffman taking over in mid-late November (Sleepy Hollow had the first 7 eppies in the can by then) - the tone is different. And many fans back then pointed it out.

If Sleepy Hollow had had a full order of episodes in the first season, then what I think you're insinuating in your post might be relevant to explain that - but since SH S1 only had 13 episodes and the back 6 are the episodes that even S1 devotees note something going awry with Ichabbie and the show's tone, then I think what I and many others here are saying seems more relevant.

Hell yes. White people are boring as fuck. I know, because I am one. I'd love for Katrina to have been a freed or escaped slave who married and saved Ichabod through magic, preferably Vodoun. A black Katrina Crane calling down the loa and fucking Moloch's creatures up would have been a glorious thing to behold and now I'm kind of pissed that it didn't happen.

If I had a time machine and rewrite authority, I'd put Lyndie Greenwood in as Katrina and Katia Winter as Abbie's crazy foster sister. Maybe bring in Tony Todd as Henry Parish instead of John Noble.

Well wow - since you put it that way - that actually sounds kinda good!

The networks would have never done that, lol.

johntfs · January 2, 2015

Maybe if Henry channels a little Walter Bishop he make a spell/machine to let us watch the dimension next door where that storyline takes place.

I would like to point out a couple-three things to those who believe that hurricane Katrina is going to destroy their show. First, it's not your show. It's the showrunners' show and they are merely giving you the opportunity to watch it. The only creative control you get to exercise is through your remote control. You can watch or not. That is the sum total of your power to direct the destiny of this show. Attempts to "backseat write/direct" will not be received well by the people actual doing the work to put the show together.

Speaking as a very amateur writer, my inclination upon reading some things here would be to let slip some "spoilers" to the extent that Katrina's identical twin sister would also come forward in time to help Ichabod raise Abbie, who had been magically transformed into a seven year old child (who was still voiced by Nicole Beharie). Jenny would take up with Abraham and turn evil while the ghost of Captain Irving would hang around with Hawley and Jeremy, using his magic ghost powers to try to help them become better white people. In short, I would screw with you.

Second point: The story's not over yet. It's entirely possible that the relationship between Ichabod and Katrina is being pushed to the front so that when she dies in or near the season finale, her death will have more impact. If she died in Season 1, either in the pilot or finale, Katrina was mostly just the weird ghost lady. If she dies later this season after she, Ichabod and Henry are together and relatively happy, the impact is more powerful. Plus, figure the Roaring Rampage of Revenge that Ichabod, Henry and possible Abraham will unleash against Katrina's murderers will be a glorious thing to see.

Third point: TV shows can be watched "On Demand" but they can't be filmed that way. Figure most of the first half of this season was already in the can by the time the first episode aired, which means the showrunners couldn't really react to others' reactions even if they wanted to. However, they've probably had some time to absorb those reaction and we'll what if any changes they choose to make as the second season continues.

catrox14 · January 2, 2015

Any work of art becomes the audiences the moment the audience consumes it. .So whilst it is not the audiences intellectual property, it is ours to critique and enjoy as we see fit regardless of what the author may or may not have intended or is intending in the future. Also it's not like this is some great literary or cinematic work of

art that is above reproach.

jhlipton · January 2, 2015

1) Attempts to "backseat write/direct" will not be received well by the people actual doing the work to put the show together.

2) It's entirely possible that the relationship between Ichabod and Katrina is being pushed to the front so that when she dies in or near the season finale, her death will have more impact.

3) Figure most of the first half of this season was already in the can by the time the first episode aired, which means the showrunners couldn't really react to others' reactions even if they wanted to.

i. Ratings are way down from the first season. That impacts how much the network can ask sponsors for their ads. So attempts to tell them why ratings are down are appreciated by the networks. Also, the popularity of SH was driven by social media. Social media continues to have an impact no matter how much Goffman would like to think otherwise.

2. You mean the way that Irving's death was "made meaningful" after him being sidelined for most of the half-season? A good writer can make even a minor character's death meaningful.

3. "In the can" doesn't mean "set in stone". If the network or showrunner wanted badly enough, those episodes could be re-shot and or re-edited.

savinggrace · January 2, 2015

There's evidence that the input of fans has meant a change to the show. If interviews are to be believed Goffman and Co. tacked some Abbie stories in the last couple of episodes after being called out for the lack of focus on Abbie's life compared to all the Ichatrina development.

If she dies later this season after she, Ichabod and Henry are together and relatively happy, the impact is more powerful. Plus, figure the Roaring Rampage of Revenge that Ichabod, Henry and possible Abraham will unleash against Katrina's murderers will be a glorious thing to see.

A roaring rampage of revenge might be glorious if Henry and Abraham were A) deserving of redemption/happiness and, B) not willfully responsible for the deaths of countless people including Corbin and Irving. Convincing the audience that those two deserve revenge rather than comeuppance will be an even tougher task for the writers than trying to make us like Katrina.The audience doesn't have much reason to be sympathetic towards deceitful and comically ineffective Katrina let alone care if her death is avenged.

Edited January 2, 2015 by savinggrace

vanarnd1 · January 2, 2015

Second point: The story's not over yet. It's entirely possible that the relationship between Ichabod and Katrina is being pushed to the front so that when she dies in or near the season finale, her death will have more impact. If she died in Season 1, either in the pilot or finale, Katrina was mostly just the weird ghost lady. If she dies later this season after she, Ichabod and Henry are together and relatively happy, the impact is more powerful. Plus, figure the Roaring Rampage of Revenge that Ichabod, Henry and possible Abraham will unleash against Katrina's murderers will be a glorious thing to see.

At some point though how much screen time can be put into a character/story line that isn't working? They have already based on a lot of Season 2 on Katrina would it really be a good idea to devote additional time this season or in Season 3 to Ichabod vowing to get revenge for her death? How much can TPTB really keep investing in a character that has never fit into what made the show popular? Even if a storyline with Katrina was written well I think people are so tired of her that it would not help the show at all. Sooner than later they have to cut their losses because otherwise the audience will keep leaving and then the writers will no longer have a platform to tell any story, much less about Katrina.

phoenics · January 2, 2015

Maybe if Henry channels a little Walter Bishop he make a spell/machine to let us watch the dimension next door where that storyline takes place.

That could be cool.

I would like to point out a couple-three things to those who believe that hurricane Katrina is going to destroy their show. First, it's not your show. It's the showrunners' show and they are merely giving you the opportunity to watch it. The only creative control you get to exercise is through your remote control. You can watch or not. That is the sum total of your power to direct the destiny of this show. Attempts to "backseat write/direct" will not be received well by the people actual doing the work to put the show together.

Disagree. It may not be received well, but given the drop in ratings and the solidarity with television and media critics, I'd say our power extends far beyond our remotes. Our remotes gave us power - and that power has given us the VOICE to talk back to the show runner and Fox and illustrate where the show runner went wrong.

Again - Goffman is NOT the creator of Sleepy Hollow. What he has done is a "bait and switch" for all intents and purposes. He took the original premise of this show and CHANGED it to push a (now hated) character to the forefront at the expense of the lead female character.

Fox - already knows that Goffman is on something because Fox ALREADY had to step in and stop Goffman from leaving Abbie in Purgatory for half the season.

And that's because FOX knew that the FANS watched this show for Ichabbie - it was the show's greatest strength...

The creators of this show intended that - heck - that's why the specifically sought out Nicole Beharie as the lead FIRST before Tom Mison was even cast. He had to chem test with her to get the part!

THAT was the vision and Fox bought into that vision same as the viewers did.

So I respectfully disagree with your assertion about our power.

And btw, we are tuning out - have you seen the ratings lately?

Speaking as a very amateur writer, my inclination upon reading some things here would be to let slip some "spoilers" to the extent that Katrina's identical twin sister would also come forward in time to help Ichabod raise Abbie, who had been magically transformed into a seven year old child (who was still voiced by Nicole Beharie). Jenny would take up with Abraham and turn evil while the ghost of Captain Irving would hang around with Hawley and Jeremy, using his magic ghost powers to try to help them become better white people. In short, I would screw with you.

They are already screwing with fans - and the fans have retaliated by leaving the show. Ratings are down.

That's how this works.

Also - this isn't some movie that just airs and we just have to accept. It's a tv show. Which means it needs ratings to survive. Since we actually love this show and its original premise, we have every right to complain and to redirect the show runners in the error of their ways.

Honestly, fan outrage wouldn't be so bad if Goffman and company didn't try to marginalize the fans who were being critical. They first tried to poo poo us as "shippers", then they agreed with fans who called us "haters" and finally when actual tv critics (should they take your advice and shut up?) said the SAME things fans had been saying for longer, then Goffman and the writers started trying to promote even more Katrina in interviews, even when the questions were about Abbie, or sidestepped Katrina criticism even when interviewers nailed Goffman on the points, or made passive aggressive jokes at the fandom.

The issue that many of us have pointed out is that the show runner and the writers are ARROGANT. They hijacked the premise of this show and are trying to change it and react with scorn and derision to any fans (the majority apparently) who take issue with that.

Hope that arrogance serves them well when they are jobless.

Second point: The story's not over yet. It's entirely possible that the relationship between Ichabod and Katrina is being pushed to the front so that when she dies in or near the season finale, her death will have more impact. If she died in Season 1, either in the pilot or finale, Katrina was mostly just the weird ghost lady. If she dies later this season after she, Ichabod and Henry are together and relatively happy, the impact is more powerful. Plus, figure the Roaring Rampage of Revenge that Ichabod, Henry and possible Abraham will unleash against Katrina's murderers will be a glorious thing to see.

Many of us suggested this early on in S2 - you might want to read up on all of the threads here - what you're saying isn't news to us. EXCEPT we made the story relate back to the Witnesses, instead of furthering Crane man pain and CFD. The issue is that IF the writing continues in the tone that it has now, no one will be around to care if Katrina is killed off - especially if all we get is an entire season of man pain over it in S3.

That is NOT what we want.

In fact, the storyline I suggested over and over was similar to what you said - that the show needed to have Henry kill Katrina, and have it somehow be Ichabod's fault - and that would turn Abraham back to Headless and we'd get Ichabod vs. Headless again and Henry vs. Ichabod, with Ichabod finally accepting his role as witness and finally giving up the redemption ghost. The difference between your idea and mine is that I was trying to get us back to a S1 premise and you seem to be advocating for more CFD.

The issue is - the writers are addicted to centering everything around the Cranes, which minimizes the whole Witness plot - which makes even the above suggestion a non-starter.

I think that the attitude of the writers and the show runner is a huge problem. In the hands of writers and show runners who don't have "limited" views of diversity and race, the above would work (I submit that the reason Goffman is tone deaf to the fandom dislike of Katrina is because he cannot fathom why we won't accept her - and he thinks that we still have Irving and Jenny and Abbie around - so why won't we just accept Katrina the way he wants to push her (as lead?) The reason is because Goffman's idea of "representation" is a very "in name only" or "as a token", imo. I don't think he understands that SH was loved not just because we had characters of color - it was loved partially also because those characters of color MATTERED. And sadly in his zeal to push Katrina to the forefront, he added a lot of characters that marginalized CoC, stirring up bad feelings for much of the fandom who have seen this kind of thing before, e.g. Twisted).

I think Goffman didn't or doesn't realize that he's a show runner in the era of Shonda Rhymes and that she has changed the game for many. Before her, Hollywood could content itself with token PoC representation on tv. We didn't have "proof" that a show with a black female lead (romantic even!) could literally be a tv JUGGERNAUT. Scandal has completely changed the game. I remember when SH came out, there were a ton of articles wondering if Nicole Beharie was the next Kerry Washington... was Abbie the next Olivia Pope?

And then ... Season 2 happened.

A lot of the backlash Goffman and co are getting right now is due to his and their lack of understanding of how the world has shifted. It's not just Scandal - it's the political landscape (Obama, the events in Ferguson, and NYC)... it literally has a lot of fans of all colors (including white) looking at their media differently... it has many people seeing the tropes in play now that they didn't see before. And it has many of them refusing to settle for anything less than what hooked them in S1. The two witnesses joined in battle.

Goffman has taken away everything that made the Two Witnesses special. Instead of Ichabod almost being a kind of defacto "minority" due to his "weird status" as a man out of time who looks out of place constantly and just seems odd, now he's one of the other guys from the past and nothing about him seems all that special as to why he's a Witness anymore. All of that is gone. Now he's just some guy who for some inexplicable reason was a Witness and whose affair (if a woman was betrothed back then and then left that man for another, it was considered the same as adultery) caused 2 Horsemen to happen. And all of those players are here too.

Ichabod has been messed up just as badly as the PoC have.

It's like Goffman had NO clue what made fans love this show and in his zeal to push Katrina - his favorite character - to the forefront, he's destroying everything fans loved about the show.

And the ratings prove it.

So - while we may not "own" the show, we are what keeps it on the air - or not.

Third point: TV shows can be watched "On Demand" but they can't be filmed that way. Figure most of the first half of this season was already in the can by the time the first episode aired, which means the showrunners couldn't really react to others' reactions even if they wanted to. However, they've probably had some time to absorb those reaction and we'll what if any changes they choose to make as the second season continues.

True - but the way you give interviews illustrates your willingness to listen to fans. Goffman may be backed into a corner because the episodes are in the can - but his interviews show an arrogance and a refusal to back down from what fans are screaming they hate.

That's the problem - and until we see a shift there, this show will continue to garner fan outrage and slip in ratings.

Edited January 2, 2015 by phoenics

formerlyfreedom · January 2, 2015

Just a gentle reminder in here that it's perfectly okay for people to have differing opinions about Sleepy Hollow, as long as the conversation remains civil and respectful of one another. We appreciate everyone's contribution, and thank you all for posting!

BestestAuntEver · January 2, 2015

I would like to point out a couple-three things to those who believe that hurricane Katrina is going to destroy their show. First, it's not your show. It's the showrunners' show and they are merely giving you the opportunity to watch it. The only creative control you get to exercise is through your remote control. You can watch or not. That is the sum total of your power to direct the destiny of this show. Attempts to "backseat write/direct" will not be received well by the people actual doing the work to put the show together.

The above is why I don't hate watch any show. I refuse to ad in numbers thru live viewing, DVR +3 or +7. I haven't watched an episode since Mama. I came to this show for Sci-fi /fantasy not melodrama.

The only way for me to watch now is a drastic change. Not simply shipper bait or a B storyline. Been there, done that and have the t-shirt.

Speaking as a very amateur writer, my inclination upon reading some things here would be to let slip some "spoilers" to the extent that Katrina's identical twin sister would also come forward in time to help Ichabod raise Abbie, who had been magically transformed into a seven year old child (who was still voiced by Nicole Beharie). Jenny would take up with Abraham and turn evil while the ghost of Captain Irving would hang around with Hawley and Jeremy, using his magic ghost powers to try to help them become better white people. In short, I would screw with you.

Problem, screw with your consumers and they can and will destroy your livelihood. They won't buy your future books, they will tell numerous others. There are authors I will no longer buy books from because of the above, Charlaine Harris is one to come to mind. There are also showrunners shows that I won't watch because they have screwed with me before. Many people do read reviews and check social media prior to purchases and new shows these days. A bad tract record follows the writer and/or showrunner.

On the other hand, I get excited when I showrunner/writer I trust is involved in a story. I just mentioned my excitement in the Empire thread that Danny Strong a talented writer and of BtVS and Gilmore Girls fame is involved with the show. FYI, he's the creator and executive producer.

IMO, you want the audience excited about your work and have trust/faith in your word andabilities. I'm telling everyone about Empire. I've also gotten multiple people hooked on The History Channel's Vikings because of my enthusiasm.

Second point: The story's not over yet. It's entirely possible that the relationship between Ichabod and Katrina is being pushed to the front so that when she dies in or near the season finale, her death will have more impact. If she died in Season 1, either in the pilot or finale, Katrina was mostly just the weird ghost lady. If she dies later this season after she, Ichabod and Henry are together and relatively happy, the impact is more powerful. Plus, figure the Roaring Rampage of Revenge that Ichabod, Henry and possible Abraham will unleash against Katrina's murderers will be a glorious thing to see.

Wasn't this story about witnesses and the apocalypse? Why should CFD or Katrina become bigger/more important than this. What does the above have to do with the shows original premise and how does it improve the the Sci-fi /fantasy world building?

phoenics · January 2, 2015

Problem, screw with your consumers and they can and will destroy your livelihood. They won't buy your future books, they will tell numerous others. There are authors I will no longer buy books from because of the above, Charlaine Harris is one to come to mind. There are also showrunners shows that I won't watch because they have screwed with me before. Many people do read reviews and check social media prior to purchases and new shows these days. A bad tract record follows the writer and/or showrunner.

On the other hand, I get excited when I showrunner/writer I trust is involved in a story. I just mentioned my excitement in the Empire thread that Danny Strong a talented writer and of BtVS and Gilmore Girls fame is involved with the show. FYI, he's the creator and executive producer.

This is so true. I refuse to watch anything connected to Jason Katims for what he did to Roswell - but I love David Nutter for his S1 Roswell work - and he's why I'm stoked about The Flash and have hope that show won't let me down.

And fans from White Collar have already talked about how Goffman has a history of doing things like this before... so this stuff will follow him forever.

Writing is different now than it was before the age of social media. Fans have access to all kinds of information about show runners, their previous writing history and even judgments on their character and how that impacts their writing.

Goffman is still writing this show as though he's back in the pre-SM days - and it's obvious that he doesn't know how to adapt. Which is odd, given his almost political career. You'd think he'd understand how to pivot better.

Honestly - SH went wrong the moment he was made show runner for the back half of Season 1. I will never watch anything he's involved with again if he doesn't get it together. Now.

shanndee · January 2, 2015

Agreed. When consumers are not given follow through on the product that was originally on sale they stop buying the product. They may even stop using the store that sold the products.

I have supported the initial product with my time and my money. This new product replacing the original does not match the promise of S1 in any way. A stupid soap opera is not a fun, creepy, supernatural urban fantasy in any way, no matter how Goffman wants to say it is.

As a result I will only watch episodes that have the Two Witnesses front and centre in the previews. Any soap opera CFD I will reject outright. I will not purchase season 2 BluRays at all due to the epic fail of the showrunners and I will not tune into S3 at all without solid proof of a return to the S1 product that originally captivated me. I will also never watch a Goffman product again.

So, yeah. Screw with the consumers of your product at your own risk. We can, and will, hurt your bottom line if you don't maintain the quality of your original offering.

Edited January 2, 2015 by shanndee

jhlipton · January 2, 2015

I will not purchase season 2 BluRays at all due to the epic fail of the showrunners and I will not tune into S3 at all without solid proof of a return to the S1 product that originally captivated me. I will also never watch a Goffman product again.

There's another way that we have creative control beyond our remote. If FOX knows that sales of S2 DVDs are going to be dismal, they will do whatever they can to boost those sales. DVD sales are a goldmine to a network since the cost-to-profit ratio is through the roof. They would have to be idiots not to boost sales..

DeLurker · January 2, 2015

I would like to point out a couple-three things to those who believe that hurricane Katrina is going to destroy their show.

I think it is more Hurricane Goffman rather than Katrina* and I would use the past tense as opposed to future tense.

* Because that would elevate the character's relative importance and she's just a tool.

And it is "their" show; however it is a distinctly different show than what was promoted and sold (sold well) season . If the show had simply been offered from the get go as a retelling of Sleepy Hollow and the CFD, I doubt greatly I could muster the interest to watch. IMO, the current Season squanders the potential of the story they built in the first season and the resources they have under contract.

But the industry they work in dictates that commercial appeal matters most, so what the viewers think does matter. The advertisers probably could give a rat's ass about the quality of the programming. They care that the desired demographic is eyeballing their product.

Yolapukka · January 2, 2015

I tend to waver between two things when I try to pinpoint what has been most damaging to the show, the first being there from day one, with Katrina being made Ichabod's wife, the second being the twist of Henry being the son of the Cranes. As well as giving us the template for the CFD, those two twists have weakened the potential of both characters by trying to reinforce their positions as central to the narrative. Ironically, it turned them into time-sucking bores.

Sometimes things just need to be simple. Henry worked as a villain. Giving him backstory and motivations based on origins as the Crane's lost boy did not make him more complex and interesting, it just made him whiny and undercut the dark integrity he revealed as a false friend to the witnesses. Greed and malice was enough to make Henry work, greed for power, for prominence, for purpose and just the right amount of unhealthy spite towards his fellow man. That doesn't mean he should have been a one dimensional moustache-twirler but his mommy and daddy issues have made him campy, not layered. Even when he does terrible, vile things he comes across more like an overgrown kid playing at naughty dress-up than what he is, a willing instrument of evil. They should have just left evil to be evil.

I don't dispute the notion that an early script would have killed off Katrina, but I think it was changed for the sensible reason that it bent the narrative of the original tale in a wrongheaded direction by disposing of a key character at the start, not as wrongheaded however as making her Crane's wife. Once the decision had been made to keep her in the story, even if the plan was still to have her presence be finite, her position as spouse should have been made into that of his fiancee, his unrequited love or hell, just his trusted friend. Ichabod and Abbie already had a dynamic and evolving relationship, were positioned as co-leads and throwing Mrs Crane into the mix was not an idea rife with dramatic possibility. At least when she was trapped in purgatory, her intrusions were limited. With her here in the present day, the choices for her as wife are either calm or conflict, the couple could have a stable relationship which doesn't need to evolve further or they have difficulty and petty conflict which has the potential to be ..... really mundane. You could give them a static relationship, in which she is the faithful loving wife and her contribution is that of a respite from the main action, a grounding calming presence, perhaps occasionally a damsel to be rescued. Not really very interesting but not an intrusive drain either. They could have made her a dynamic force to be reckoned with, a powerful witch not by reputation but by deed. a finely tuned weapon rather than the broken flashlight she has been written as being. I've really had enough of her looking rueful and shaking her hands like it might reset them with the occasional spark emitting forth They seem to have chosen no defined character for her at all and as a consequence we wound up with a wig-stand.. Her only consistent characteristic is as a walking plot-point that we are supposed to love for the same reasons a five-year old might adore the kindergarten teacher; "She's reeeeeeally prrrrrrretty and I think she's nice." They could have given her an agenda, good, bad, self-serving, misbegotten, something at least, a purpose as opposed to a mere presence. It's all information to be revealed later or maybe everything is exactly what it seems on the surface. Whatever. I stopped hoping there would be something there a while ago and started wishing she'd just go away. I haven't liked her from her first appearance, but I was willing for a long time to engage with her once the character had definition but that hasn't happened and instead she and Henry have been incredibly destructive to Sleepy Hollow maintaining a coherent central narrative.

I look forward to Sleepy Hollow incorporating other mythologies but it shouldn't be at the sacrifice of a consistent universe. Season one gave us Crane and Abbie fated to be witnesses, we had the oft referenced necessity of four horsemen allowing Moloch into this world to wreak havoc as part of the end-times and Moloch was a vastly terrifying force. Everything in the present day and the revolutionary past was in service of the notion. Suddenly after investing one and a half seasons in that premise we have two horsemen bringing forth Moloch and he gets stabbed by a crotchety twerp, turns into a wee wailing pink skeleton and vanishes. There wasn't even the remotest attempt to make sense of how the preceding mythology has been negated. Unless Moloch's defeat is an elaborate Illusion, It was just a twist for it's own sake and now we're stuck with the consequences. If it is what it seems and this was the plan all along, it was poorly set up and executed.

We are getting stuck with an awful lot that isn't particularly entertaining or coherent. Wig-stand Crane and her snivelling son are a big part of what is wrong but they are not the only part.

Edited January 3, 2015 by yuggapukka

savinggrace · January 3, 2015

Katrina would have been more compelling as the unrequited love she was portrayed as in the short story. Her dynamic with Ichabod would have been a lot more interesting. Making her the wife shut down all romantic possibilities for Ichabod and basically made Katrina a big ball and chain.

Edited January 3, 2015 by savinggrace

Carrie Ann · January 3, 2015

They could have given her an agenda, good, bad, self-serving, misbegotten, something at least, a purpose as opposed to a mere presence. It's all information to be revealed later or maybe everything is exactly what it seems on the surface. Whatever. I stopped hoping there would be something there a while ago and started wishing she'd just go away. I haven't liked her from her first appearance, but I was willing for a long time to engage with her once the character had definition but that hasn't happened and instead she and Henry have been incredibly destructive to Sleepy Hollow maintaining a coherent central narrative.

Yes, and this is key to why the idea that we should just wait and see whether there's a greater plan for Katrina (or anything this season, really) falls flat for me. IF they were planning for Katrina to be working her own shady agenda, or IF they intend to kill her off at the end of this season, or whatever the possible plan is--in the meantime, the show needs to remain entertaining. It needs to remain engaging. It needs to take advantage of its assets, and deploy them in such a way that it balances out the less appealing elements.

It's a tightrope. But what kills me is that Goffman didn't even bother trying to stay on it. He just walked the show right off the platform and assumed everyone was interested in watching 17 episodes of fumbling around in the netting before the big recovery in the finale. (If any sort of payoff even happens then, which I don't really believe at this point.) It doesn't matter what their plan is, or what the payoff is, if the setup isn't good TV. And it hasn't been. It barely matters how they pull out of this tailspin, because this season is a failure. The best they can hope for is to end on a less-horrible note, and maybe recover for Season 3, but they'll never recover the ratings/viewers they lost.

ChelseaNH · January 3, 2015

the show runner and the writers are ARROGANT. They hijacked the premise of this show

The showrunners can't hijack the show, pretty much by definition. They control the show's direction, and if they want to change it, they can.

screw with your consumers

In this case, the portion of your consumers who follow the show in social media. Pretty sure their number of Facebook likes/Twitter followers is a fairly small percentage of the viewing audience. I think they would have been a lot wiser not engaging complaints through those media, but I don't believe input from those channels drives their decision making. If you pay attention to social media, you're going to hear a wide range of opinions, some more to your liking than others. I'd say Nielsen ratings and reviews from industry critics carry more weight.

CinnamonCW · January 3, 2015

The showrunners can't hijack the show, pretty much by definition. They control the show's direction, and if they want to change it, they can.

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? It's c;ear what the poster means.

I agree with it too. Goffman and co. came along and decided two Witnesses fighting the Revelations Apocalypse stifles them creatively so they deconstructed that which drew in the audience to push a vision he preferred, in the process of which Abbie is marginalized.

I don’t think anyone is questioning whether they have the right or ability...

In this case, the portion of your consumers who follow the show in social media. Pretty sure their number of Facebook likes/Twitter followers is a fairly small percentage of the viewing audience. I think they would have been a lot wiser not engaging complaints through those media, but I don't believe input from those channels drives their decision making. If you pay attention to social media, you're going to hear a wide range of opinions, some more to your liking than others. I'd say Nielsen ratings and reviews from industry critics carry more weight.

People on social media don’t live in a vacuum though. Such a backlash on social media and in the mainstream media by critics can indicate a larger pattern. There’s a likelihood that is the case now seeing as the ratings have dwindled by at least half, and furthermore the ratings decline correlates with the shift in focus to Katrina and Crane Family Drama.

Edited January 3, 2015 by CinnamonCW

BestestAuntEver · January 3, 2015

In this case, the portion of your consumers who follow the show in social media. Pretty sure their number of Facebook likes/Twitter followers is a fairly small percentage of the viewing audience. I think they would have been a lot wiser not engaging complaints through those media, but I don't believe input from those channels drives their decision making. If you pay attention to social media, you're going to hear a wide range of opinions, some more to your liking than others. I'd say Nielsen ratings and reviews from industry critics carry more weight.

The ratings have dropped. They may even drop further with the return from the break.

Sadly showrunners seem to have taken your thought process concerning onliners however, onliners do talk and interact with offliners (family members,friends and coworkers) about this show. Bad press will get around. An example, my aunt she's not on diddly squat.

The current story lines are so disjointed from the original premise she thought she missed episodes. I had to explain to her that TPTB were no longer looking at why Moloch targeted the Mills' family and sisters or what happened in the woods when they were kids.

She then wanted to know what the plans for finding out about Abby and her history and I told her there wasn't one, that I knew of. I overviewed the spoilers and synopsis for upcoming episodes and she said, "Well, I'm done".

A similar incident happened with a coworker about 2 months ago.

This show has bled viewers and by all accounts will only get a 3rd season because Fox's schedule tanked hard this year. SH 1.5 rating is Fox's 2nd top rated show. Other Networks are dropping shows with 1.5 ratings.

That's not an endorsement to me that's simply your doing bad but not as horrible as everything else.

Edited January 3, 2015 by BestestAuntEver

phoenics · January 3, 2015

The showrunners can't hijack the show, pretty much by definition. They control the show's direction, and if they want to change it, they can.

You misquoted me - I didn't say they hijacked the show. I said they hijacked the PREMISE of the show, not the show itself (although I do feel like they did that as well). But it's simple fact that they hijacked the premise, since 1) the current show runner is not the show creator nor the original show runner and his vision for the show is markedly different than the creator or the original show runner... hence his direction has HIJACKED the original premise for this show.

In this case, the portion of your consumers who follow the show in social media. Pretty sure their number of Facebook likes/Twitter followers is a fairly small percentage of the viewing audience. I think they would have been a lot wiser not engaging complaints through those media, but I don't believe input from those channels drives their decision making. If you pay attention to social media, you're going to hear a wide range of opinions, some more to your liking than others. I'd say Nielsen ratings and reviews from industry critics carry more weight.

I feel like you missed the point that was being made. Even if the show runner wanted to screw with the fans on social media in the writing for the show, it would STILL impact the fans. When the writers penned Ichabod being unable to give Abbie CPR and then penned an episode immediately after with him giving CPR when Abbie could have done it - that was definitely screwing with the fans - mostly Ichabbie fans... and fans felt that whether they'd been complaining on social media or not.

But I do believe that Nielson ratings and reviews from critics DO carry much more weight - and both are saying the exact same thing that the majority of fans on social media are saying. FB - which used to be the last bastion of Katrina/show support have now turned on the show and Katrina. Even from people who used to avidly ask for more Katrina. Many are asking why the show has moved away from the original show premise (more evidence of my assertion that the show runner has hijacked the premise of the show).

Social media does have power - show runners should ignore it at their peril.

I think it's time for a Roswell level Tobasco-style campaign to Fox. But what can we send?!?

phoenics · January 3, 2015

People on social media don’t live in a vacuum though. Such a backlash on social media and in the mainstream media by critics can indicate a larger pattern. There’s a likelihood that is the case now seeing as the ratings have dwindled by at least half, and furthermore the ratings decline correlates with the shift in focus to Katrina and Crane Family Drama.

I believe this is even more true now that the tide has turned on FB. You could argue that twitter, tumblr and message boards aren't necessarily fully reflective and can be biased toward hardcore fans, but that argument is harder to make with FB.

Additionally, the tone of the comments from people that I noticed USED to be much more forgiving of what was airing (and Katrina) and that simply isn't the case anymore.

They are saying some of the same things being said in other forums about what went wrong with the show (the intense focus on Katrina, the marginalization of Abbie, not enough Ichabbie, moving away from The Two Witnesses) ... and it's not really a case of "new" posters either.

What's sad is that we barely had half a season of Ichabbie coming into their own fighting as The Two Witnesses before it got wrecked entirely. That's gotta be a record. Why fix what wasn't broken?

HalcyonDays · January 3, 2015

This whole situation with Sleepy Hollow is so complex, I don't think any one reason is the be all end all reason. I'm going to try to address some of the comments I remember: (also, some of my sentences might be clipped, only cause too much writing, quick spewing out of thoughts)

Number 1 - the comment that the show runners show and if you don't like, don't watch. Very incorrect, especially at this point in the series. The point of the show is to make money. The show runners job is to produce content that garners high ratings, and therefore increases advertiser revenue. A subset of that is having the network considered acclaimed, therefore encouraging advertisers to put money in the network. Nothing more, nothing less. It's why reality show is coveted - cheap to make, high ratings, cheap "actors', lots of money.

A showrunner can make the show his/her own, but only after many years of success. Goffman is not in the position yet to make the show his own. He can't. The goal is money, syndication, ratings, etc. A show like Castle, for example, has the same amount of angry skewering criticism that we do here, but the show runner has been on the air 6 years, renewed for seven years and now has the coveted syndication, so who cares. Now he has the luxury to present HIS ideas, because why not - his show won't get cancelled and the rating remain high.

SH hasn't been successful enough for Goffman to do his thing. Not at all. That is piece #1 of the puzzle. He shouldn't be able to do this, unless FOX is willing to comply in some cases because...

Ratings - Advertisers covet the "white man 18-49" demo, because apparently they, and not the reems of Baby Boomers, have piles of money. In the old school corporate executive mindset, these are the ones with money. Therefore, they must appeal to that demo. I really think that FOX wanted to expand and ADD viewers, and tried to grab the young males, hence heaving bosoms and tight corsets and focus on Katrina. The fact that Goffman totally muses on her just reaffirms this - he is that demo and mindest they are looking for.

Think about it. The Big Bang Theory is a 30 minute show that gets huge ratings and 4.0 and higher demos. The three main actors get $1 million an episode. The four others get like $250K or more an episode. All are getting back end deals and syndication payouts. There are 24 episodes a season. Before we even factor in production costs and other salaries, the six main actors will get at a minimum $96 million this season. Ad and other TBBT revenue streams has to be enough to cover this, production costs, other salaries, misc costs and still make a healthy profit for the network. My point - no network would rightfully trust a young show and unproven show runner to remake a show in his own vision at this point in the series, if the bottom line was hit.

By aiming for that coveted demo, FOX failed to anticipate the backlash, as did the writers, and the resulting poor season. When you have a SH producer calling a media writer/analyst and asking THEM why SH is not doing well, the SH boardroom is obviously isolated and clueless and tone deaf.

Most networks won't risk this that early on, unless they decide to give up on the show and not bother with it anymore, which lack of promo indicated they may have. Most, because there are many poor decisions made by isolated glass wall corner office executives.

Mishandled Drama - Making John Noble the son, and having the Crane's whine about redemption rings false for two reasons. One - age. Sorry, but Noble looks old so people have a hard time with seeing a father/son connection. Two, Crane doesn't know his son. It's theory only, so rings false to the viewer this so-called connection. Crane is (was) more ethical than this. The show Forever did it better, with Henry (the main character) being younger than his son, BUT they showed many scenes that showed the father and son bond. SH tells, not shows. They need to show, not tell. You see this with Katrina too - she's a powerful witch, but never shows it. The resulting CFD ends up trite, boring and doesn't engage the viewer.

Forgoing Shady!Katrina, making her weak - They had this great opportunity to show her being shady, making the viewer second guess her actions. Instead, they made her a damsel in distress. Maybe the male white 18-49 demo wants that (doubt it, lots don't), but the show thinks they do, therefore here she is. The massive use of pathetic female TV tropes, when your audience has lots of females, is sad and offputting.

Not understanding the Ichabbie appeal - The writers have been quoted as saying they totally didn't see it coming, which makes me go, ' say what??'. The relationship - platonic or otherwise - grounds the show. By putting wedges in it for no reason other than drama, this hurt the overall feel and dynamic of the show.

These are a few pieces of the unique and complex puzzle of Sleepy Hollow and why it's the way it is. I've said it before. Sleepy Hollow is a clinic or study in what a show runner, writers and network should NOT do with a well-received, ground-breaking show.

CinnamonCW · January 3, 2015

I believe this is even more true now that the tide has turned on FB. You could argue that twitter, tumblr and message boards aren't necessarily fully reflective and can be biased toward hardcore fans, but that argument is harder to make with FB.

I love that you brought up the Facebook situation and how the tide had turned almost overnight! It's actually fascinating.

People knew what to expect on Facebook, that being more "family oriented" and full of general fans that accepted what was thrown their way. But just as you say, the same people that once left comments for more Katrina or for whatever reason enjoyed Ichatrina did a 180. It wasn't gradual either, just one day the tide had turned. It was no longer what it used to be.

ChelseaNH · January 3, 2015

I said they hijacked the PREMISE of the show

If they control the show, they control the PREMISE of the show. They can't hijack something they legitimately control.

Bad response in social media didn't cause people to stop watching; people stopped watching for the same reasons that there was bad response in social media, as well as negative response from industry critics. We're all seeing the same events.

What I'm also seeing is the construction of a narrative that has common elements of folklore: evil usurper, resistance movement, expectation of a hero (i.e. network executive) who will oust the usurper and restore happiness to the land. I understand why people feel a sense of ownership with the show, but it's misplaced. Being emotionally invested in the show doesn't actually confer any kind of control. If the audience really owns the show, then why hasn't Goffman been replaced yet? What are they waiting for?

Edited January 3, 2015 by ChelseaNH

Indi · January 3, 2015

I don't think anybody has ever said the audience owns the show, so I'm failing to understand how this is an issue. It's the creator's/network's/producers' product, but 1. They are not selling as advertised (bait & switch) and 2. They are selling a faulty product

.

The show started one way, which appealed to an important enough number of viewers, a fact that granted them a second season, but then they changed it to suit one untalented producer's whims and fantasies, resulting in a huge mess. How is it a surprise that people are reacting negatively?

Now, the owners of the product have two options: either call the consumers, who are criticizing their mediocre product, haters or actually pay attention to the criticism and try to improve it.

When I say I want them to get rid of Goffman and Katrina, I'm well aware it's just a wish and I'm pretty sure anyone else wishing the same is under no delusion that they can control such things. However, not speaking up accomplishes even less. Fandoms are not always completely powerless.

may flowers · January 3, 2015

When you have a SH producer calling a media writer/analyst and asking THEM why SH is not doing well, the SH boardroom is obviously isolated and clueless and tone deaf.

I hadn't heard this one. Can someone please elaborate, or direct me to a link or place in the forum where I can read more? This fascinates me.

I loved Sleepy Hollow last year. A friend and I spent time discussing what it meant every time an episode aired. This year, she gave up after the premiere, and I tried to hang in there but I sometimes forget it's on. I've read all the comments in this section, and all of you have provided such interesting insight into what has happened to what could have been a great show. Thank you!

Yolapukka · January 3, 2015

Being emotionally invested in the show doesn't actually confer any kind of control.

However becoming disinvested can result in a brief and devastating control over the long run prospects for a show if enough fans reach that point. Cancelled is generally the end for most shows, it's moot after that point which vision for the show was most significant, the program the viewers thought they were watching or the story the creators thought they were telling. Hopefully that won't happen here. I'm glad that enough people still feel invested enough to have an opinion. That it includes some who have stopped watching but still give the show any thought whatsoever tells me they could be wooed back if the writing improved.

It's odd to me that they were reportedly flying by the seat of their pants last season and put out such a hugely entertaining show that did fairly well in world-building, but this season, when they have had the luxury of more time it's been comparitively dull and incoherent, kind of the opposite of what I'd expect.

Edited January 4, 2015 by yuggapukka

phoenics · January 3, 2015

If they control the show, they control the PREMISE of the show. They can't hijack something they legitimately control.

Hmmm, "premise" as I was using it meant the original premise of the show, meaning that which the show was founded on - it's thesis or overall "plot" direction from the pilot. It's the "contract" presented in the pilot (much like the problem statement that you would find in a dissertation). Fans who watch the pilot sign onto that "contract" that showrunners/creators present. Hence, the "premise".

So - to clarify - when I say they hijacked the show "premise" I mean they hijacked the original thesis/contract presented by the show in the pilot episode.

And since it's fact that 1) Goffman was not the original show runner and that the S2 writers aren't the writers from S1 AND Goffman was neither the original show runner nor was he the creator of Sleepy Hollow, then the original premise of the show cannot and could never be his.

Therefore, he could only continue the premise of the show - or change (in stronger terms, hijack) the original premise.

If you took another meaning for how I used "premise", apologies - please use what I stated above. Any other definition is not what I meant, and thus irrelevant to any of the discussion of my words.

Bad response in social media didn't cause people to stop watching; people stopped watching for the same reasons that there was bad response in social media, as well as negative response from industry critics. We're all seeing the same events.

I never said this - I'm going to assume this was directed at someone else.

What I'm also seeing is the construction of a narrative that has common elements of folklore: evil usurper, resistance movement, expectation of a hero (i.e. network executive) who will oust the usurper and restore happiness to the land. I understand why people feel a sense of ownership with the show, but it's misplaced. Being emotionally invested in the show doesn't actually confer any kind of control. If the audience really owns the show, then why hasn't Goffman been replaced yet? What are they waiting for?

I'm trying to reason out where any of us have said we own the show - just that we do have *some* ownership - being that as a group, we do impact ratings. And the ratings are down.

We've also pointed out facts about how Fox HAS stepped in to stop Goffman from doing harm (not all harm, obviously), so it's not like we're wishing on a star. Additionally, Goffman used Facebook as an excuse to push more Katrina (claiming fans wanted more of her), so its not like there isn't precedent there - although I think Goffman was looking for any excuse to push her.

As for what they're waiting for - since Kurtzman, Orci and Iscove are occupied with Scorpion, Fox cannot just fire Goffman. Which doesn't give me much hope for the future actually. That likely means that he will just go back to what he wants to do (Katrina) the minute Fox turns their backs. Unless Fox manages to find another heir apparent - or another show runner entirely who "gets it".

But I understand. I've seen this before as well... when some people have some favor with a show runner because that show runner favors their way of thinking - sometimes those fans can react strongly when the majority of fans don't agree and even worse, ratings plummet in direct proportion to that "vision" being pushed - which further threatens both theirs and the beleaguered show runner's vision (even if that vision represents a bait and switch from the original show vision, i.e., contract, that all fans were privy to in the pilot). I can see how the network executives can be seen as threats to getting that, hence the attempts to "silence" the criticism.

But you cannot silence ratings.

The same thing happened with Bold & The Beautiful - but eventually ratings won out.

In either case - this discussion (which feels like the above mentioned attempt to "silence" criticism - seems way off topic.

I'd rather get back to what went wrong with sleepy hollow - which is what we were discussion before.

DearEvette · January 3, 2015

Second point: The story's not over yet. It's entirely possible that the relationship between Ichabod and Katrina is being pushed to the front so that when she dies in or near the season finale, her death will have more impact. If she died in Season 1, either in the pilot or finale, Katrina was mostly just the weird ghost lady. If she dies later this season after she, Ichabod and Henry are together and relatively happy, the impact is more powerful. Plus, figure the Roaring Rampage of Revenge that Ichabod, Henry and possible Abraham will unleash against Katrina's murderers will be a glorious thing to see.

If this is the plan, then it probably could have worked. The problem is all in the execution. What they did not do, and what this sort of plan relies on, is investing the audience in Katrina so that when (if) she does die, we do feel the emotional heft of it. But they made a series of tactical errors in their quest of this.

1) They underestimated the popularity of Jenny and Irving. By effectively disappearing them, they forced audience attention on the people who weren't there rather than the person they were trying to invest us in.

2) They underestimated the diversity of their audience and their audience's appreciation of the show's diversity. By sidelining Jenny & Irving and effectively "replacing" them in screen-time minutes with the whiter Hawley & Katrina it again focused negative attention on what (and who) wasn't happening rather than on what was.

3)They underestimated non-shippers connection to the team of Abbie & Ichabod. While shippers have been very vocal in wanting Ab& Ich together, i get the impression that some of the push behind Katrina was a sort of 'so there!' to the shippers. But what the writers failed to notice is that a lot of people who love the show respond to just the plain old actorly chemistry of Beharie and Mison and what the two of them together bring to the table as a team. By forcing Katrina in as a wedge, they disrupted the chemistry so that not only shippers get disgruntled, but even the people who just like the team dynamic now get an 'off' feeling. I can't recall how many times I've read that Katrina "messes with the chemistry" of the show.

4) They underestimated the sophistication of their own viewing audience. This is a genre show. People who watch these shows have some background understanding in how these shows should play out -- in character development and world building. They recognize hoary old tropes. They are not fooled by the thought process behind putting Katrina in a corset and skinny jeans. Many of the people watching this show grew up on Buffy. They are not going to be impressed by a character like Katrina.

5) They underestimated the number of people who primarily relate to the character of Abbie. In a show that features a handsome, British, white male lead it could be forgiven, I suppose, to think that the audience primarily watches the show for him. But as has been shown, a fair amount of fans are attracted to the show also because of Abbie. And true or not, real or not, the positioning of Katrina a woman who needs to be looked after, loved by all, constantly rescued, and whose voice carries equal or more weight than Abbie's is viewed as a usurpation of Abbie role as prime female. This is tv Psychology 101. People relate to and get attached to familiar characters. Especially lead characters they've positively identified with. And when it seems their role is being replaced by someone less familiar, viewers subconsciously (or consciously) reject that. The way they deployed Katrina, she never had a chance.

6) Just plain old bad writing. Katrina is just a poorly written and conceived character.

Even if they do bring it around in the end, they've squandered a lot of goodwill. What is that famous line of Marc Antony's in Ceasar? "the evil that men do live after them, the good is oft enterred with their bones..." Even if they do manage some grand finale, the stench of S2A will linger. And if somehow they end up killing off Katrina, I think people will be rejoicing rather than feeling bad for her. It will also make any grand 'Roaring Rampage of Revenge' that Ichabod et. al. do feel empty and pointless.

Edited January 3, 2015 by DearEvette

vanarnd1 · January 3, 2015

What I'm also seeing is the construction of a narrative that has common elements of folklore: evil usurper, resistance movement, expectation of a hero (i.e. network executive) who will oust the usurper and restore happiness to the land. I understand why people feel a sense of ownership with the show, but it's misplaced. Being emotionally invested in the show doesn't actually confer any kind of control. If the audience really owns the show, then why hasn't Goffman been replaced yet? What are they waiting for?

I don't think it is about having ownership of the show, it is about the power of the consumer. Like most businesses, a tv show on a network relies on customers(the audience) showing interest in their product to provide revenue. The audience might not have any tangible control over a tv show, but they can voice there displeasure by changing the channel and hurting the bottom line of a network.

That is why even the most basic companies value and ask for customer feeback. If people are unhappy with the service at a place they go to eat, they will take their money and business somehwere else. Same if people are unhappy with the content of a tv show, even more so today with all of the entertainment options available.

Fox has already stepped in previously and overruled Gothman in regards to keeping Abbie in purgatory, so it is not unreasonable to assume that if there is enough fan outrcry that the network could force Goffman to change direction and possibly rewrite episodes. The ratings decline also provides a clear financial incentive for FOX to get take a closer look at what is going on behind the scenes. So I do believe indirectly the audience can influence desicions both from showrunners and the network.

Edited January 3, 2015 by vanarnd1

methodwriter85 · January 3, 2015

6) Just plain old bad writing. Katrina is just a poorly written and conceived character.

Even if they do bring it around in the end, they've squandered a lot of goodwill. What is that famous line of Marc Antony's in Ceasar? "the evil that men do live after them, the good is oft enterred with their bones..." Even if they do manage some grand finale, the stench of S2A will linger. And if somehow they end up killing off Katrina, I think people will be rejoicing rather than feeling bad for her. It will also make any grand 'Roaring Rampage of Revenge' that Ichabod et. al. do feel empty and pointless.

You forget...

7.) Katia Winters is a horrible, horrible actress with no charisma. I mean, even a very limited actress could have at least tried to make this work if she had the right amount of charisma to her. (Susan Lucci is a great limited actress but with enough charisma to offset that.) She doesn't have any to make up for the lack of that, and the "smug" attitude that people have said continually about her doesn't endear her to anybody.

And yeah, this is not a 1990's SciFi cheap syndication show. It's not enough to put her in a tight corset and get the fanboys drooling over her. The standards are a lot higher than that now. These people cut their teeth on Buffy and X-Files, and are consuming Game of Thrones, The Walking Dead, etc.

The ratings decline also provides a clear financial incentive for FOX to get take a closer look at what is going on behind the scenes

To compare to another situation, Matt Weiner was able to get away with "Everybody Loves Meghan" on Mad Men for two seasons because the ratings didn't tumble like they are tumbling here.

Edited January 3, 2015 by methodwriter85

phoenics · January 3, 2015

That's the vexing part. If Goffman had strengthened the show and made fans secure that he was only enhancing the premise of the show and not completely and utterly deconstructing it, they would have given him all kinds of latitude. I think the problem was that he started pushing his "vision" (which contradicted or conflicted with the premise of the show) too soon. Not that I want a vision which usurps the premise of the show - but in a later season - like season 4, I wouldn't have minded a game changing kind of storyline that shakes up things (but not something that removes Nicole or Tom as leads, to be clear).

In fact, I think that had Goffman just kept going with the original premise, shown Katrina to be "killed" at the end of S1 and gone from the canvas with some fun revenge fallout for the rest of the cast to play through and then had her pop back up later on in a season where it would raise the emotional stakes - well THAT could have worked so much better, imo. Katrina would still be somewhat of a third wheel, but we might actually be interested to see more about her rather than resenting it now... Especially if there was some big mystery of what happened to her while she was "dead".

Well now I wanna do a fanfic, lol.

Edited January 3, 2015 by phoenics

HalcyonDays · January 3, 2015

To me, it's not even that they didn't kill her off. Season 1, she brought each scene to a grinding halt, but all they had to do was play on hershadiness. That's it. Have her play Ichabod and Abbie, and play Henry and be a formidable force to deal with. Not all evil is so defined as 100% bad.

Have her play the Witnesses, Ichabod struggles with this, show how the lies upon lies have a purpose, have him question things, and finally have him say "that's it, I'm done and be a true Witness." Instead we get her knocked up pregnant with demons, weak with magic, fainting, corsetting, whispering, crying, etc.

The writers messed up big time with her, tbh. There was a really good opportunity. Now I totally resent her appearance on screen, when I could have been all intrigued as to her motivations, and yelling at the TV for Ichabbie to turn the tables and figure it out, all while she's twirling her "evil" mustache.

savinggrace · January 3, 2015

The worst part of the Katrina debacle is the continued screen time being wasted in the (failed) attempt to rehabilitate her character and the number of dumb things they are making other characters say and do to prop her up. Imagine if they put as much time into the plotting and world-building.

Edited January 3, 2015 by savinggrace

phoenics · January 3, 2015

The worst part of the Katrina debacle is the continued screen time being wasted in the (failed) attempt to rehabilitate her character and the number of dumb things they are making other characters say and do to prop her up. Imagine if they put as much time into the plotting and world-building.

This is why it's too late to even make her "be evil". It's to the point where if they even tried the evil route at this point, they've spent SO MUCH TIME on her already that fans - or at least I - would be pissed that they were spending yet MORE time on her.

I read that the show used her as a red herring last season - and that's where a lot of the shady was from. Lots of fans apparently were upset that she didn't turn out to be the big bad. I believe that since the show meant to kill her off (2nd try) in the season finale, the red herrings were seen as throwaway stuff that they wouldn't have to deal with later on.

But then they decided to keep her on the show and then they were faced with the fact that they made her look really shady all season... so how could they play the epic love story "straight"?

So this season we get *more* shadiness, but also much MORE of her to begin with... and worse all we SEE is Katrina shadiness and all we HEAR is Katrina is "wonderful".

We are told that Katrina and Ichabod have an epic love. We are shown two people with zero chemistry and nothing to suggest WHY they are supposedly so in love. Meanwhile, inordinate time is spent trying to tell the audience all of this and the result is stuff the audience cares about is ignored (Ichabbie, Irving, Jenny, The Apocalypse, The Witness thing, Headless being a BAMF).

We are told that Katrina is a powerful witch. We are shown that she can't even move a twig. I DO think this is going to change in the back half - but the problem is folks are too sick of her taking up all the screen time to care. It will just feel like an intrusion and worse it's going to feel like why didn't they do this already when they already could?

I think the writers think we care so much about Katrina and by the looks of social media, fans just don't as a whole. And worse the stuff to get to whatever "payoff" they think they are writing is taking too long - and even worse than that, I don't think the payoff will actually PAYOFF, lol.

Or, it's only going to payoff for Katrina/Ichatrina fans - and I know I'm not in that audience.

I think the audience Goffman is writing for is not the audience I'm in. And apparently a whole lot of other fans think so too because they just left.

Edited January 3, 2015 by phoenics

HalcyonDays · January 3, 2015

I marathoned "How to get away with Murder' yesterday. Good show. Really good. I'm in. I realize it's a different genre, but those little twists each episode, and the little bits of information the viewer learns as the story unfolds are great. Sleepy Hollow can still do the big reveal, but they need to drop some hints along the way, to make the viewer go "OMG!" once an episode, as opposed to once a season. I think that is another major component of the show that is sorely missing.

DearEvette · January 3, 2015

This is why it's too late to even make her "be evil". It's to the point where if they even tried the evil route at this point, they've spent SO MUCH TIME on her already that fans - or at least I - would be pissed that they were spending yet MORE time on her.

Yeah, if they were gonna make her evil they should have revealed it earlier in S2. By the time 'Weeping Lady" came around fans were so happy at even the tiniest glimpse of her being something other than just a useless Damsel, people grasped at it like a lifeline. But now we've fanwanked so hard with every possible option, that the writers have frittered away any element of surprise of what they can do with her. So even if they do turn her evil, there will inevitably be some fan fic out there that did it better.

methodwriter85 · January 4, 2015

That's the vexing part. If Goffman had strengthened the show and made fans secure that he was only enhancing the premise of the show and not completely and utterly deconstructing it, they would have given him all kinds of latitude. I think the problem was that he started pushing his "vision" (which contradicted or conflicted with the premise of the show) too soon. Not that I want a vision which usurps the premise of the show - but in a later season - like season 4, I wouldn't have minded a game changing kind of storyline that shakes up things (but not something that removes Nicole or Tom as leads, to be clear).

Right. Mad Men's tone was relatively consistent for the first 3 seasons, and we didn't hit Everybody Loves Meghan until season 5. They didn't really pull a game changer until end of season 3/season 4, after they had built up three years of loyalty. Goffman doesn't have years of audience loyalty built in here. You don't pull a bait-and-switch at just the second year in.

phoenics · January 4, 2015

Halcyon Days - I posted a spoiler pic in the spoiler thread that has that Henry lawyer video in a big gif image. I think there are spoilers in it - maybe check it out... a whole lotta stuff that I think fans thought was just funny jokes and not really stuff for the show are actually spoilers because a lot of that stuff that was scrolling in the video is happening on the show - a lot has already happened in S2.

Too bad they didn't telegraph that a bit better in the writing on the show.

I agree about any shadiness surprise with Katrina being frittered away by the show - they've dragged it out so poorly that no one will care. Not even Frank's Macy-posession storyline lasted as long as this looooong drawn out CFD and Katrina stuff. It's a shame.

Trini · January 4, 2015

...

3)They underestimated non-shippers connection to the team of Abbie & Ichabod. While shippers have been very vocal in wanting Ab& Ich together, i get the impression that some of the push behind Katrina was a sort of 'so there!' to the shippers. But what the writers failed to notice is that a lot of people who love the show respond to just the plain old actorly chemistry of Beharie and Mison and what the two of them together bring to the table as a team. By forcing Katrina in as a wedge, they disrupted the chemistry so that not only shippers get disgruntled, but even the people who just like the team dynamic now get an 'off' feeling. I can't recall how many times I've read that Katrina "messes with the chemistry" of the show.

...

5) They underestimated the number of people who primarily relate to the character of Abbie. ...And true or not, real or not, the positioning of Katrina ... is viewed as a usurpation of Abbie role as prime female. This is tv Psychology 101. People relate to and get attached to familiar characters. Especially lead characters they've positively identified with. And when it seems their role is being replaced by someone less familiar, viewers subconsciously (or consciously) reject that. The way they deployed Katrina, she never had a chance.

...

I don't watch this show (but the discussion has been fascinating!), but I have to agree with these two points in particular. With any show founded on a certain team dynamic (romantic or not), messing with that dynamic is a sure way to turn off viewers. For example: Human Target had its issues, but the main trio is one thing that worked really well. In season 2 (after a new show runner came on, and possibly some network meddling), the trio became a quintet. And it sucked, in short.

So I can see how if the show promoted as "Crane + Mills fight against evil" becomes "Crane + wife + Mills fight against evil" that would piss people off.

Now, I don't want to say that changing up the dynamic is always a bad thing, but it seems like it was too soon, or unnecessary for this show.

DeLurker · January 4, 2015

In this case, the core group managed to expand to include Jenny (Abbie's sister) and Sheriff Irving (who went from antagonist to ally) quite well. But along with the reliance on each other they also allowed the distrust and skepticism to be shown and addressed. Jenny and Irving were never the same roles as the witnesses, but easily part of the Scooby Gang.

The inclusion of Katrina has been handled so ineptly it has felt like an intrusion.

kieyra · January 4, 2015

If they control the show, they control the PREMISE of the show. They can't hijack something they legitimately control.

Bad response in social media didn't cause people to stop watching; people stopped watching for the same reasons that there was bad response in social media, as well as negative response from industry critics. We're all seeing the same events.

What I'm also seeing is the construction of a narrative that has common elements of folklore: evil usurper, resistance movement, expectation of a hero (i.e. network executive) who will oust the usurper and restore happiness to the land. I understand why people feel a sense of ownership with the show, but it's misplaced. Being emotionally invested in the show doesn't actually confer any kind of control. If the audience really owns the show, then why hasn't Goffman been replaced yet? What are they waiting for?

Just to clarify, you came to a thread that is explicitly for the purpose of discussing what went wrong and hoping for a fix, and then you were surprised to find people doing that? And you're letting us know it's hopeless? That seems...doubly quixotic. And your "narrative" discovery is something that has played out many times with many beloved shows, especially genre shows. Does anyone ever show up to rescue to the show's lost potential? Usually not. But sometimes improvements do happen. It's worth trying, and even if it isn't, the post-mortem is interesting. SH is an especially interesting case because it's been such an egregious set of mistakes, such a blatant demonstration of someone at the top being completely delusional, and so quantifiable via the ratings. I'm not sure I can remember any other show blowing its own head off so freaking fast and so spectacularly. This is like, season four or five-level epic failure here. So yeah, I expect the discussion will continue.

jhlipton · January 4, 2015

I'm not sure I can remember any other show blowing its own head off so freaking fast and so spectacularly.

+1000 to your post. As to the quoted part, I think that happened to Herman's Head. IIRC, Herman's personality changed between season 1 and season 2. It limped to a third season but didn't survive.

===============================

ETA:

I just noticed that Oci and Kurrtzman are Executive Producers on Hawaii 5-0. I'm not sure what involvement they have, but if they can run Scorpion and Exec Produce 5-0, they might have just a little time for our show... On the other hand, they might have exclusive contracts with CBS.

===============================

Edited once again to add:

Social media matters more to FOX than it would with most other shows. SM created the ratings for season 1 -- people Tweeted, Tumblred and FaceBooked about the show and got their "friends" and followers to watch. If these same people now say "Don't bother", the ratings will drop more. The fact that "mainstream" critics are saying the same thing just bolsters the SM posters.

Edited January 4, 2015 by jhlipton

DearEvette · January 4, 2015

I'm not sure I can remember any other show blowing its own head off so freaking fast and so spectacularly. This is like, season four or five-level epic failure here. So yeah, I expect the discussion will continue.

The closest I can think of for me is Heroes. I loved Season 1 but bailed right before S2 ended and never looked back. At least Tim Kring had the wherewithal to admit that he understood fan criticism of S2 and even some of the mistakes they made. I don't see Goffmann doing that.

savinggrace · January 4, 2015

The closest I can think of for me is Heroes. I loved Season 1 but bailed right before S2 ended and never looked back. At least Tim Kring had the wherewithal to admit that he understood fan criticism of S2 and even some of the mistakes they made. I don't see Goffmann doing that.

I never watched Heroes but reading about it, I found it interesting how the diversity complaints mirror Sleep Hollow. Someone did a diagram showing how the show started out diverse with POC actually outnumbering White characters but by the last season the POC had dwindled to 3 characters. Not only did all the main White characters survive until the last season--the number of White characters practically doubled.

Edited January 4, 2015 by savinggrace

HalcyonDays · January 4, 2015

Regarding the Poll in this thread:

Well, it looks like 72% of people here (over 100 votes) all believe that Katrina/Henry and CFD have contributed to why Sleepy Hollow is struggling this season, both in ratings and in viewer opinion.

Pretty definitive, eh? And not surprising, as I would say the same percentage (if not more) of media articles have said the exact same thing.

Since we've broken the 100 vote milestone for CFD (my milestone, btw), I am going to close this poll and maybe put up another one for season 2B. Maybe what one thing should happen to FIX Sleepy Hollow? (I can guess that one answer that will vote high already *grin*).

Thanks to all for voting and participating in this poll. We're not crazy or negative, guys! Just frustrated about that choice that gathered 72% of the vote. Cheers!

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