The Sleepy Hollow Therapy Thread - What went wrong with Sleepy Hollow?

[DJG1122]

As for the other demographic they want - the white male - the same applies in this house. My hubby used to watch the show with me and loved it. Three weeks ago, he gave it up. I asked him why. He said he is sick and tired of Katrina, can't stand her.

 

Your husband and mine must be brothers. Mine said he isn't interested anymore in The Katrina Crane Family Hour.

[HalcyonDays]

DJG1122 - I fixed your quote tags for you, BTW.

 

Your husband and mine must be brothers. Mine said he isn't interested anymore in The Katrina Crane Family Hour.

 

Your husband is a wise man. Of anything, why would a white male (or ANY male for that matter), care about demon pregnancies and weepy powerless witches and sappy romance storylines and sulking men? Most probably don't (either do I, for that matter) so this grab for more white men makes no sense, to be honest. What did they think? That simply showing Katrina's heaving bosom was enough to grab the white guys? Seriously? So offensive.

 

The AV Club did a review of The Akeda, and again, because men are men, a lot of the comments consisted of "Yeah, Katrina is hot but other than that, I don't care about her. Get rid of her. I hate this storyline." So even the men who are objectifying her have had enough! I really wish there was a way to get this point across to FOX and/or the writers.

[jhlipton]

I'm another white male who thinks that Nicole is far sexier than Katia, and that BAMF Abbie leaves Katrina so far behind it isn't even funny.

I loved the show for having non-white characters but not making a big deal about it (other than one line in the pilot, Abbie is not by the percentage of melanin she has; neither is Frank, Andy or Corbin). That was quite refreshing to someone for whom race shouldn't matter but knows that racism exists (and that subtle racism is harder to root out that overt racism).
 

The whole point of world building is to make a canvas as deep and detailed and real as possible. So real that the viewer (or reader) is eager to learn all the new rules.

 
Defiance. People can play a video game based on it because they know the rules, they know the "teams", they know the world.
 

A young black woman's review of what went wrong. Touching to me.
http://youtu.be/Y6fVhAyVqKk?ac

 
Great review.
 

When Tim Kring ruined Heroes (and did he ever) it took him a few years to get another gig.  It had lousy ratings and barely any press.

It took Kring 4 seasons to kill Heroes (which he did by a "pulling a Goffman" -- sidelining interesting characters, mostly women and POcs for the bland Bennecellis and [blech]Skyler. Only took 2 seasons for him to kill Touch, though
 
 

But the last time I checked, POC shopped and bought things too, but hey, I could be wrong...*sarcasm*

[sarcasm] Rap albums and 40s, amirite? [/sarcasm]

Edited December 7, 2014 by jhlipton

[RiddleyWalker]

DJG1122 - I fixed your quote tags for you, BTW.

 

 

Your husband is a wise man. Of anything, why would a white male (or ANY male for that matter), care about demon pregnancies and weepy powerless witches and sappy romance storylines and sulking men? Most probably don't (either do I, for that matter) so this grab for more white men makes no sense, to be honest. What did they think? That simply showing Katrina's heaving bosom was enough to grab the white guys? Seriously? So offensive.

 

The AV Club did a review of The Akeda, and again, because men are men, a lot of the comments consisted of "Yeah, Katrina is hot but other than that, I don't care about her. Get rid of her. I hate this storyline." So even the men who are objectifying her have had enough! I really wish there was a way to get this point across to FOX and/or the writers.

Interesting that you mentioned AV club recaps here. I've been watching old Fringe episodes and reading the recaps and the comments especially for that show and thought I'd take a look at the comments and review of the SH Pilot. It was very interesting that so much of what we've all mentioned on this forum as strong points (including the Tome Mison/ Nicole Beharie chemistry) were apparent right from the star. Also, the Pilot was far more scary than the latest episodes--the mirror scene with John Cho etc. Here's the link if you're interested….http://www.avclub.com/tvclub/sleepy-hollow-pilot-102876

[DearEvette]

I do wonder if they were afraid to get rid of Katrina because they  thought without her White women would tune out but now they have inadvertently scared away everyone. I'd love to know the racial demographic break down of the audience for both seasons.

 

I actually think white women watch for Ichabod.  OTOH, black women seem to watch for Abbie.  With some crossover, obviously.  Ironically, I think it is Orlando Jones who is the attraction & ambassador of the show for the hip, young genre crowd the show really needs to thrive.  Go figure.  If TPTB paid any attention to their fandom at all as they claim to, they'd know that the majority of the viewers were watching for Ichabod and Abbie as a team.

I'd be surprised if  even 0.01% of the fandom actually watch for Katrina.  And I think Goffman is part of that number.  And given some of the reactions in the ftermath of The Akeda that I've seen & heard around the web on podcasts and blogs even some Katrina apologists & tolerators have thrown in the towel on her.

 

 

I know that Nielsen ratings have racial stats on the registered households from which they get viewing stats. I'm not sure how they measure demographics from DVR viewing.  I recall reading that White middle and upper-class viewers are the most coveted demographic since they allow a show to command more advertising dollars. There are shows on BET (Black entertainment Television) and Univision/Telemundo that get higher ratings than network shows but they don't "count" apparently and can't charge the same in advertising rates as the networks because their audiences are predominately non-White. It's really ridiculous because US dollars are all the same color regardless of who's spending them.

 

My understanding is that the most desired demographic is the 18-49 age group, regardless of race.  This is seen as the group that is most susceptible to advertising and had the independent wherewithal to spend the money.   A show with a higher rating share in this group will demand more money for a 30 second commercial than one with a smaller rating share even if they have more viewers. 

 

Some shows will target demographic for their advertisers.  For instance, shows like The West Wing  & a lot of the CBS shows skew older, whiter and more affluent and the advertising reflects that. 

 

Nielsen does have a list of most watched shows in African American households and in Latino Households.  My understanding of that is the share in those demographics will influence who advertises.  And if high enough will determine how much money those advertisers are willing to spend.  This is also important depending on what types of goods those advertisers have.  For instance, AA viewers get targeted for cars, high end electronics and soft drinks.  These are big money companies with a lot of advertising dollars so potentially that AA rating share is seen as valuable.

 

Even more telling is that for the first time in like forever, Nielsen is ready to revisit their formula for ratings because millennials watch tv in so many different ways and it is believed that their old model is no longer catching the right data.  The announcement of using twitter to also count in ratings is a rather revolutionary one.  It is also somewhat of a game changer demographically because for once POC out-represent non-POC users of social media especially in places like twitter & instagram.  A recent Pew study showed that of all online users, 40% of black internet users aged 18-49 use twitter compared to 28% of white internet users of that same age.  

 

I am personally convinced that it was incessant live tweeting by mostly black female fans that took Scandal from a little, no fanfare show that hovered around a 1.9-2.0 demo when it first started and propelled it to the it is now the 3.1 powerhouse it is now.  Believe me I watched that show from day one and nobody I knew was watching it.  It debuted around the same time as Smash that NBC seemed to be hyping all the time, you couldn't get away from ads.  But ABC barely put out a few commercials for Scandal.

 

One thing that makes me nervous on Sleepy Hollow's behalf is that Empire will be debuting in January.  And if anything has a POC demographic in its' sights it is that show.  if enough POC are mad enough at SH to jump ship that is where they may jump ship to.   And when a network is looking to renew or cancel shows, they don't always just look at the raw ratings, they look at how their shows are comparing to each other and decide what to keep.  If Empire does well, then Fox will have three dramas that feature WOC regular actresses.  And if Gotham continues to rise and improve and Sleepy Hollow continues to fall, it will be in some real danger.  And since Goffman is still blathering on about Katrina centric stuff I think we may not have seen the basement for Sleepy Hollow when it comes to ratings points.

[catrox14]

What I found so refreshing about Sleepy Hollow last season is they smartly acknowledged that Ichabod would wonder how a WoC could be a police officer and wear trousers and then smartly had Ichabod in support of abolition and then smartly had Abbie redress him about thinking that was enough. Then they got on with them being Witnesses and partners and the organic way Ichabod would have to cope and Abbie coping with Ichabod.  I have no problem with diversity being discussed in the show whilst at the same time I did appreciate that it was just a matter, well of course there would be diversity in this community and that it was just part and parcel of being in Sleepy Hollow.

 

Sigh. I miss smart!Sleepy Hollow

[TwistedandBored]

I think the show has backed it self into a conner by bringing Moloch in soo early and then killing him easily or not killing. Either way Moloch looks mighty weak right now. All the show talks about is if he makes it to earth how it would cause the apocalypse like he is the only one. Moloch this and moloch that…by the time he got here we as fans should be anticipating the consequence or payoff instead of wanting him to kill Katrina, Henry, Headless, or all 3 of them. They messed up with their own story set-up. They could have said Moloch was one of apocalypses harbinger or something. Instead they made him to be the ONLY one.

 

I think people can over look Katrina and the whole CFD if it was tertiary to the main storyline. The show lost it's way when it decided to make CFD not only the main story but connecting it to everything Team Bad! It weakened the mythology, the evil guys, and more importantly brought the many flaws of The Crane Family to the forefront. Writers should not be surprise if people want to complain about CFD over taking the show because there is nothing else to complain about. 

[jhlipton]

I actually think white women watch for Ichabod.  OTOH, black women seem to watch for Abbie. 

 

One thing that makes me nervous on Sleepy Hollow's behalf is that Empire will be debuting in January.  And if anything has a POC demographic in its' sights it is that show. 

 

I'm not sure my (black) wife watches for actors or actresses.  She enjoys the acting in general (Katia's doesn't stand out as bad to her, but she ca never remember who Hawley is...) and the goofy mythology.

 

I think I'm more excited about Empire than my wife.  The creator wanted to do one of my favorite movies (The Lion in Winter) as a battle for a rap studio -- how cool is that?!

 

I think people can over look Katrina and the whole CFD if it was tertiary to the main storyline. The show lost it's way when it decided to make CFD not only the main story but connecting it to everything Team Bad! 

 

Not me.  I think Katia Winter is so far below the others in acting skill (I would watch a show with Nicole and Lyndie as the leads.  They are both cute, great actresses and work so well together).  Any time StruggleWitch (love the name) pops up, I groan.

Edited December 7, 2014 by jhlipton

[marceline]

 

Not me.  I think Katia Winter is so far below the others in acting skill (I would watch a show with Nicole and Lyndie as the leads.  They are both cute, great actresses and work so well together).  Any time StruggleWitch (love the name) pops up, I groan.

 

I don't think anybody could've made the character of Katrina work. She's just a poorly-formed blend of TV and romance novel tropes. A shuffling mix of fluttering eyelashes, heaving bosoms, breathy speech and fainting.

Edited December 8, 2014 by marceline

[savinggrace]

A good actor can remain a good actor even while reciting bad lines from a bad script. I can't cut Katia Winter any slack because if she's a good actress she could still make choices in facial expression, gestures and intonation that would give Katrina more gravitas or convey something more than Harlequin Romance. Good actors can actually elevate mediocre material. I would say Tom Mison and Nicole Beharie do a good job of making plots and lines they have to recite seem credible and giving gravitas to otherwise ridiculous storylines. Even Matt Barr who plays Hawley was able to telegraph his affection for Abbie with just his expressions from his very first episode. Katia Winter doesn't telegraph or convey anything more than whatever line is on her script and for a character as duplicitous as Katrina that's a problem. It brings down the impression of the entire show when such a weak actress is given so much screen time.

Edited December 7, 2014 by savinggrace

[DearEvette]

The actress who played Caroline managed to convey more personality, chemistry and romantic longing for Ichabod is just two scenes than Katia Winter has in almost two seasons.

[catrox14]

That is so true.  Which makes me wonder more and more if it is a deliberate writing/acting decision to show that Katrina is actually playing Ichabod on the long con. That she says the right words to keep Ichabod hanging on but there is no real connection or what have you between them anymore. 

 

On one hand that would actually be far more interesting for Katrina reasons but it would also really piss me off  because I don't want Ichabod to be made into anymore of a fool than he already has been because of Katrina :(.

Edited December 7, 2014 by catrox14

[starchild215]

That is so true.  Which makes me wonder more and more if it is a deliberate writing/acting decision to show that Katrina is actually playing Ichabod on the long con. That she says the right words to keep Ichabod hanging on but there is no real connection or what have you between them anymore. 

 

On one hand that would actually be far more interesting for Katrina reasons but it would also really piss me off  because I don't want Ichabod to be made into anymore of a fool than he already has been because of Katrina :(.

There were hints of that in that so cold scene of the Cranes in bed watching TV. To me her being a creature of the bad guys is the only way her acting choices make sense. 

 

I don't think Goffman is that bright though.

[Dejana]

I think people can over look Katrina and the whole CFD if it was tertiary to the main storyline. The show lost it's way when it decided to make CFD not only the main story but connecting it to everything Team Bad! It weakened the mythology, the evil guys, and more importantly brought the many flaws of The Crane Family to the forefront. Writers should not be surprise if people want to complain about CFD over taking the show because there is nothing else to complain about. 

 

I compare Katrina to Megan on Mad Men. The latter wasn't universally adored by any stretch, but even the season when she had the most dialogue of any actress on the show, and the scripts were written so that more established, beloved characters would randomly praise her amazingness, many of the storylines still didn't involve her on a deep level. What was happening with Roger or Pete or Joan or Peggy on any given week, for example, was generally separate from the life of Megan, most of the time. You can't really say that with Sleepy Hollow, which is less of an ensemble than MM. Katrina, for better or worse, has been made a much more integral part of the show this season, so she's much harder to ignore for those who don't care for the character and her storylines.

 

It will always happen that some fans won't like a character on any given show and sometimes, honestly, it's on them. Bitter that Don Draper gets so much airtime on Mad Men? It was always obvious that he was the main character, so don't expect it to change. Sure, Katrina is in the original short story, but SH the show deviated from that quite a bit, and received the most praise for its depiction of a partnership of a man out of time and a very modern woman, and the least for the handling of Katrina. If the big reveal is that she's playing Ichabod somehow, the writers are going about it in the worst way possible. As it is, she just comes off as duplicitous yet thoroughly ineffectual as a witch, when it seems like we're all supposed to think she's the most wonderful thing since sliced bread, which just makes fans more annoyed with her.

Edited December 7, 2014 by Dejana

[Carrie Ann]

Personally, as I've gotten older, I've found that my interest in shows without a strong female lead is pretty low. I don't care if a man is at the center of a show (Arrow), but I need at least one woman I can get invested in. Basically the only show I currently watch without that is Sherlock, and that's kind of a special case.

 

So I wrote SH off pre-Season 1 because it looked ridiculous, and I assumed Ichabod was the lead, because he's the character I knew from the source material. It wasn't until I started seeing clips and gif sets on Tumblr, and saw Abbie in action, that I became interested in the show. And from my perspective, she is the lead. She is the reason I'm here. Her dynamic with Ichabod is the reason Season 1 worked, and the most important element to my enjoyment of it.

 

So ultimately, I'm pointing the finger at Katrina and Henry, but in actuality what went wrong was that Goffman re-centered the story on the wrong person. Abbie should be the grounding center of the show. She is our entry point to this weirdo story. She's the normal person from our time; Ichabod is the weirdo from another world. He's interesting as a person who has a different perspective on the world, who still has a lot to learn, but to me he is primarily interesting to me via his relationship with Abbie. 

 

But to Goffman, the situation is reversed. He finds Ichabod way more interesting than Abbie, and other characters interesting only via their relationships with Ichabod. So Frank is sidelined and then killed; we barely see Jenny; and we spend way too much time on Katrina and Henry. And maybe worst of all, Abbie spends much of the season just existing to initially challenge but ultimately validate Ichabod.

 

The problem is that as long as he's steering the ship, this situation will not change. He fundamentally doesn't see the show and its assets the way most of its fans do. I have no hope of anything improving until and unless he's replaced.

[savinggrace]

The actress who played Caroline managed to convey more personality, chemistry and romantic longing for Ichabod is just two scenes than Katia Winter has in almost two seasons.

Heck, even Yolanda the OnStar lady had more personality and better rapport with Ichabod in her tiny role as a disembodied voice. Everyone still remembers that scene as a classic. Abbie and IChabod of course have had memorabe scenes. I can't think of a single memorable scene between Ichabod and Katrina that I would rewind on DVR.

[savinggrace]

Personally, as I've gotten older, I've found that my interest in shows without a strong female lead is pretty low. I don't care if a man is at the center of a show (Arrow), but I need at least one woman I can get invested in. Basically the only show I currently watch without that is Sherlock, and that's kind of a special case.

 

I think there's been a societal shift in how women identify themselves and what they want to see of women on screen. There have been such strides in the portrayal of strong, capable women that the whole damsel in distress trope seems completely outdated. Women today are not checking for characters who are weak and constantly victimized. I get that there are real life women who are weak and constant victims, I just don't want to watch a show centered around that type of character every week.

[blixie]

 

I actually think white women watch for Ichabod.  OTOH, black women seem to watch for Abbie.  With some crossover, obviously.

 

This white lady is part of the crossover group! I  was here for Abbie and Nikki from day one, and was grossed out by the excessive focus and marketing of Mison over Beharie in S1. I love(d) Ichabod, but like Carrie Anne just said so well: Abbie is the heart, she is the ROCK, she is the lead, period. Until the network fires Goffman I don't hold out hope she will be treated with the respect and care she deserves as the damn lead of the show.

 

The result in refocusing the show around Ichabod as the lead hopelessly susceptible to the breathy whispering tits of his wife and apocalyptic pout fests of his son has only resulted in my wanting to see him die and be revealed as a false witness created by his EVIL wife, and it was Jenny who was the actual 2nd witness all along.

 

FIRE GOFFMAN. 

[catrox14]

 

. He finds Ichabod way more interesting than Abbie, and other characters interesting only via their relationships with Ichabod. So Frank is sidelined and then killed; we barely see Jenny; and we spend way too much time on Katrina and Henry. And maybe worst of all, Abbie spends much of the season just existing to initially challenge but ultimately validate Ichabod.

 

I'm not so sure that Goffman finds Ichabod that interesting actually.  

 

If he does he surely hasn't proved it by me. He's made Ichabod into an idiot at the altar of Katrina. He's brought in another handsome man to be a foil for him along with the foil of Abraham I think Ichabod wants to be a good man and wants to do the right thing and I think his guilt over what happened to Henry along with his own issues with his own father inform his choices but I think Katrina's influence over him has as much to do with Ichabod's decisions as anything.  So to me Ichabod has been denigrated in favor of Katrina. Ichabod used to trust Abbie until Katrina started saying that they have to save Henry.  Yet as Abbie has been marginalized at least she is still smart and capable and able to see things more clearly than Ichabod. He might be getting more speeches with Henry but his dumber and less fun and less interesting now.

 

IMO Ichabod's characterization has suffered the most under Goffman.  YMMV

[HalcyonDays]

I'm not so sure that Goffman finds Ichabod that interesting actually.  

 

If he does he surely hasn't proved it by me. He's made Ichabod into an idiot at the altar of Katrina. He's brought in another handsome man to be a foil for him along with the foil of Abraham I think Ichabod wants to be a good man and wants to do the right thing and I think his guilt over what happened to Henry along with his own issues with his own father inform his choices but I think Katrina's influence over him has as much to do with Ichabod's decisions as anything.  So to me Ichabod has been denigrated in favor of Katrina. Ichabod used to trust Abbie until Katrina started saying that they have to save Henry.  Yet as Abbie has been marginalized at least she is still smart and capable and able to see things more clearly than Ichabod. He might be getting more speeches with Henry but his dumber and less fun and less interesting now.

 

IMO Ichabod's characterization has suffered the most under Goffman.  YMMV

 

I agree catrox14. That is what is so curious about this whole thing and makes no sense. How many times have we seen Abbie roll her eyes or say things that are so logical and practical and SMART about the whole situation. How many times have we seen Ichabod say things that come off as so stupid and idiotic and whatever? Goffman only wrote This is War and The Akeda, so the blame is not entirely on him, but he does lead these people and he must read the scripts or give script approval. Anyway, everything and anything that has to do with Katrina makes Ichabod look thoroughly dumb. They really massacred his character this year. Abbie hans't changed, in the sense of them NOT harming her character. The only bit I could see is her not being more aggressive about the whole son redemption thing, so they've managed to keep her consistent overall.

 

This is why there are theories that Ichabod is under some witch love spell, because he really changes in Katrina's presence and has no sense, but I guess even that opportunity will never be realized.

 

I don't think that Goffman finds Ichabod interesting either. He sees Crane as a vehicle to showcase Katrina, that's it.

[Carrie Ann]

Oh, I agree that his characterization has suffered under Goffman, but I don't think it's because Goffman doesn't find him the most interesting. If I were to get vicious, I would say that Goffman is using Crane as his avatar, and thus his obsession with Katrina and the greater focus on that story. I mean, Goffman has admitted no error in the way this season has gone, so from his perspective, everything that has happened is great. I don't think that his terrible judgment and myopia disproves my theory that he likes Ichabod the best and sees him as the center of the show.

 

As far as Hawley being a foil for Ichabod, I think that's true to an extent, but I see Hawley more as a way to move Abbie further to the side, and away from the precious Crane marriage. See, here's a new dude, and he's so cool, right? Cool enough for Abbie AND Jenny to fight over, leaving the Cranes free to work on their relationship. Which Goffman just continues to blabble on about as though it's interesting, and it sounds like we have a ton more of it in store for the rest of the season.

[catrox14]

 

Oh, I agree that his characterization has suffered under Goffman, but I don't think it's because Goffman doesn't find him the most interesting. If I were to get vicious, I would say that Goffman is using Crane as his avatar, and thus his obsession with Katrina and the greater focus on that story. I mean, Goffman has admitted no error in the way this season has gone, so from his perspective, everything that has happened is great. I don't think that his terrible judgment and myopia disproves my theory that he likes Ichabod the best and sees him as the center of the show.

 

To be fair, Ichabod has always been the center of the show.  It is or rather WAS Ichabod's story of waking up in 21st century and being called to be a Witness and fighting evil and stopping the Apocalypse.  And Abbie was the co-center by the end of the pilot.

 

We learn about Ichabod essentially through her eyes and we saw him change.  And we then we got to see Abbie through Ichabod's eyes. But the show was about how this man from the 18th century would cope in the 21st and stop the Apocalypse etc. etc. and how would everyone react to him. And that is not saying Abbie is less important because she's not. She's really the action hero in this piece and that has not been lost.  Katrina was a peripheral character and was there to help save Ichabod.

 

To me, Katrina's elevation is all about Katrina and they will use EVERY character to prop her including Ichabod even if that means destroying his character to do it. The problem is that I think Goffman et al must have underestimate how popular the Ichabod from s1 was because he was super smart, charming and IMO wildly popular with much of the audience. And they can't kill him off to bring Katrina to the forefront without alienating the large part of the audience that watches for Ichabod.  So they have to make him less capable, less smart and less reliant and trusting of Abbie to get her there. And they sure can't kill off Abbie without alienating the audience that watches for Abbie and the Ichabbie.

 

I know I watched because it was a fish out of water story about Ichabod and his best friend Abbie and all the nuttiness that surrounded him and Abbie.  I suspect I'm not particularly alone in that reason for watching. And that is really the only reason I'm still around because I'm hoping that comes back to the forefront. 

Edited December 7, 2014 by catrox14

[DearEvette]

To be fair, Ichabod has always been the center of the show.  It is or rather WAS Ichabod's story of waking up in 21st century and being called to be a Witness and fighting evil and stopping the Apocalypse.  And Abbie was the co-center by the end of the pilot.

 

 

I think a show called 'Sleepy Hollow' almost by default has to have Ichabod at its center.  But then.... they cast Nicole before Tom  and all actors reading for Ichabod had to chem test with her.  I want to know where are those people who saw something so magical in Nikki that it became a requirement for the Ichabod character to have a chem test?  And in the case of Tom -- a five hour chem test.  Because those people sound like they had something very different in mind than what seems to be playing out on screen right now.  I want those people back cuz I looks like they have left the building.

[Moonsky]

Even though I’ve found the sophomore season of Sleepy Hollow to have been subpar so far, I decided to not engage that much in this thread until after I viewed the mid-season finale. I knew that the mid-season finale would not live up to the hype from the showrunners but I wasn’t ready to call the first half of this season an epic fail until after I watched it because this episode was going to play heavily into whether or not I decided to give the rest of the season a real chance or check back in next season to see if the fundamental problems with the show were going to be addressed before I could start watching again. I can honestly say there wasn’t much that happened before the mid-season finale & there wasn't anything that happened in the mid-season finale that gave me even a sliver of hope that the rest of season two of this show would be worth my viewing time & the recent interviews from the showrunners have made it even easier for me to take a break from this show & maybe see if I want to get back into it next season.

 

I had some issues with the writing in a couple of episodes of Sleepy Hollow last season but I thought the show did a good job overall at keeping viewers engaged largely due to the talent & chemistry of Tom Mison & Nicole Beharie with good support from Lyndie Greenwood & Orlando Jones. There was a reason why in the first season many media critics said that this show should not work on paper but it did largely because of the performances by the leads that made the show a hit. Before this season started, I was looking forward to the show improving on some of the flaws of last season while making the show’s world expanded in an interesting way but after watching this season so far, I’ve instead had to deal with way too much bad writing in way too many episodes that even the performances of the talented core four actors of season one can’t keep me truly engaged anymore. There were a few episodes last year that were good enough for me to rewatch a few times but this season there were probably 3 out of 11 episodes that I liked but even those episodes I have yet to rewatch even once.

 

This season has been filled with plot driven storylines that have characters reacting in an OOC manner, storytelling pacing issues, bad episodic writing, racial tropes, sexist tropes, & chemistry/bad acting issues between some characters. In season one we were told that this show was about two witnesses coming together to save humanity from Moloch & prevent the Apocalypse but in season two it has turned into the Crane Family Drama hour & their fight to save their son from Moloch and oh yeah if they can stop the Apocalypse & save humanity as well then that’s an added bonus. Weren’t there supposed to be four horsemen that needed to rise before Moloch could, so where the hell were the other two horsemen in the mid-season finale? What the hell was the point of Moloch stalking Abbie & Jenny when they were kids if the Apocalypse was going to be reduced to the Crane Family Drama hour that hadn’t been dealt with two centuries ago but was now being addressed in the present time?

 

Back in season one I had some high hopes for this show. I thought that it had good enough writing & was quirky enough with a few excellent actors that made the writing seem even better than it was, which could help it to be one of those types of television shows that years from now could come up in conversations for how great it was but after watching the first eleven episodes of this season, I now believe that even though this show has some talented actors, they won’t be able to keep covering up for a lot of the issues with this show because it is up to the producers/writers to ultimately do that. I also think that if there are no real changes from the showrunners that the scenarios that fans/media come up with in terms of storytelling will always be better than what the show actually produces itself.

 

I think HalcyonDays posted in the Media Thread a while ago that Goffman made some kind of statement that this season’s writing was dumb down to help casual viewers understand what was going on with the show. I’ve read a few of his interviews before but I’m not sure if I ever read the one she mentioned but I don’t doubt he would say something as dumb as that because what he’s said in other interviews & this year’s writing for the show follows that line of thinking. This man must not truly understand how far Sleepy Hollows ratings have fallen from season one because if he thinks this show has many casual viewers then he must be living in his own bubble where reality need not apply. Sleepy Hollow was considered a hit show for FOX last year. I think it was even mentioned that the premiere episode was the best ratings FOX had received in over 10 years since the show 24 debuted for them. Of course the show declined in ratings from the pilot but it was a more reasonable decline in the beginning, which is to be expected from even a new hit television show. What is not to be expected from a hit television show is that the viewership would decline to less than half of its initial viewership in the span of one year, so when Goffman now talks about casual Sleepy Hollow viewers he sounds delusional because those casual viewers are now gone & will likely never come back because it is hard to regain viewership when it is lost & especially for a genre show like Sleepy Hollow. What Sleepy Hollow now has left in terms of viewership is its core audience that watches the show for different reasons, so if he thinks that you can’t be considered a core audience viewer if you don’t show up at comic cons or discuss a show online then he is sadly mistaken. What TPTB need to worry about now is not losing any more of their core viewership.

 

It also shows how out of touch he is & how much he doesn’t understand fans for the sci-fi/fantasy/comic book genre. People who watch those types of shows rarely if ever want you to dumb down the material so that they can understand it. They want to think & be able to come up with different scenarios on what might be currently happening in the shows & comic books they are reading as well as come up with their own theories for what might happen in the future. Years after these shows are over & they are done reading the comic books, they want to still be thinking about different theories for what might have been happening in a particular scene in season three of a show or a certain scene of a comic book that was left ambiguous for the audience. This show instead under Goffman wants to tell the viewer everything as if they are six year olds & if something is left ambiguous it’s most likely not intentional but because they have left large plot holes all over the place because they can’t figure out a way to tie things together before moving on to another plot point.

 

Goffman shows a lack of respect for what the the sci-fi/fantasy/comic book genre is built on world building which is why Sleepy Hollow’s mythology is so shaky & can change from episode to episode. It’s also why this show now feels more like one of those Harlequin romance novels combined with one of those old night time dramas like Beverly Hills 90210/Melrose Place sprinkled in with some sci-fi/fantasy elements. Goffman is the wrong person to be in charge of a show like this & even though he was there in season one, he had people to check him. Those people aren’t really over his shoulders daily anymore & it shows greatly this season. I also read on other board that Goffman wanted to be a political writer which is most likely why he comes off like a typical politician in his interviews. He isn’t a good writer but has all the qualities of a typical politician. He's the type of politician who deflects from answering any questions about obvious problems that regular everyday citizens have but the politician doesn’t care about or have an answer to while he/she talks about things that not many citizens care about but the politician will talk about/fight for because he/she cares about it.

 

I sincerely hope for this shows future that if it can’t get back on track in the second half of the season, that it will next season because two seasons in a row of falling ratings, bad storytelling, bad press, & fan discomfort is a recipe for disaster going forward for a show that isn’t even at the tail end of its run but instead just got off from having a successful first season.

Edited December 7, 2014 by Moonsky

[TwistedandBored]

I wasn't saying that Katrina/CFD can be ignored if she in a tertiary story. I was saying most people would have ignored CFD/Katrina if they were not integrated in every Sleepy Hollow storylines except for a few episode that were about Irving, Abbie, and Jenny combined. People would be noticing them less if they had like 5 minute of air time that is separated from what is going in the episode. It is just that most of the episode is about CFD and them being connected to bad guy of the week that is the problem. 

[phoenics]

I actually think white women watch for Ichabod.  OTOH, black women seem to watch for Abbie.

I used to watch for both Ichabod and Abbie - and most importantly, their interaction... the contrast of it (Abbie's little side eye looks and shade and amusement; Ichabod's side eye glances - a lot of those were eye bleeping; his sarcasm, etc..).

That just seems to have withered away.

With some crossover, obviously.  Ironically, I think it is Orlando Jones who is the attraction & ambassador of the show for the hip, young genre crowd the show really needs to thrive.  Go figure.  If TPTB paid any attention to their fandom at all as they claim to, they'd know that the majority of the viewers were watching for Ichabod and Abbie as a team.

I'd be surprised if  even 0.01% of the fandom actually watch for Katrina.  And I think Goffman is part of that number.  And given some of the reactions in the ftermath of The Akeda that I've seen & heard around the web on podcasts and blogs even some Katrina apologists & tolerators have thrown in the towel on her.

This is such an astute observation. I agree.

Even more telling is that for the first time in like forever, Nielsen is ready to revisit their formula for ratings because millennials watch tv in so many different ways and it is believed that their old model is no longer catching the right data.  The announcement of using twitter to also count in ratings is a rather revolutionary one.  It is also somewhat of a game changer demographically because for once POC out-represent non-POC users of social media especially in places like twitter & instagram.  A recent Pew study showed that of all online users, 40% of black internet users aged 18-49 use twitter compared to 28% of white internet users of that same age.

Yay Black Twitter!

I am personally convinced that it was incessant live tweeting by mostly black female fans that took Scandal from a little, no fanfare show that hovered around a 1.9-2.0 demo when it first started and propelled it to the it is now the 3.1 powerhouse it is now.  Believe me I watched that show from day one and nobody I knew was watching it.  It debuted around the same time as Smash that NBC seemed to be hyping all the time, you couldn't get away from ads.  But ABC barely put out a few commercials for Scandal.

I was one of the original Scandal viewers - back when it premiered with that Ashley Judd show "Missing" (that got canceled). I remember watching Liv in that white coat and working the whole fixer thing and then that final scene in the pilot with the President and going - "Well this is gonna be a completely different kind of show" - and then proceeded to tell everyone I knew that they needed to watch it. I was amazed at it's meteoric rise. It's like some kind of cult phenomenon.

Orlando - as you said - was really instrumental in engaging SM to get people watching... and talking about Sleepy Hollow. Talk about squandering an opportunity.

One thing that makes me nervous on Sleepy Hollow's behalf is that Empire will be debuting in January.  And if anything has a POC demographic in its' sights it is that show.  if enough POC are mad enough at SH to jump ship that is where they may jump ship to.   And when a network is looking to renew or cancel shows, they don't always just look at the raw ratings, they look at how their shows are comparing to each other and decide what to keep.  If Empire does well, then Fox will have three dramas that feature WOC regular actresses.  And if Gotham continues to rise and improve and Sleepy Hollow continues to fall, it will be in some real danger.  And since Goffman is still blathering on about Katrina centric stuff I think we may not have seen the basement for Sleepy Hollow when it comes to ratings points.

Interesting thought about Empire. I am not sure that's my kind of show - but if they make it compelling like Boardwalk Empire and not a walking set of tropes, then maybe I could watch... but I do think many POC will watch - I want to watch mostly for Taraji... It's upsetting that SH is squandering such a gold mine in SH.

SH is/was special to me because I love sci-fi and I love twistories... the fact that they did this with such a diverse cast (without making that the focus beyond what was necessary to acknowledge the histories and lived experiences of the characters - yay!) gave the show this next level of awesome that I cannot even describe.

[phoenics]

I'm not so sure that Goffman finds Ichabod that interesting actually.  

 

If he does he surely hasn't proved it by me. He's made Ichabod into an idiot at the altar of Katrina. He's brought in another handsome man to be a foil for him along with the foil of Abraham I think Ichabod wants to be a good man and wants to do the right thing and I think his guilt over what happened to Henry along with his own issues with his own father inform his choices but I think Katrina's influence over him has as much to do with Ichabod's decisions as anything.  So to me Ichabod has been denigrated in favor of Katrina. Ichabod used to trust Abbie until Katrina started saying that they have to save Henry.  Yet as Abbie has been marginalized at least she is still smart and capable and able to see things more clearly than Ichabod. He might be getting more speeches with Henry but his dumber and less fun and less interesting now.

 

IMO Ichabod's characterization has suffered the most under Goffman.  YMMV

That's an interesting point - I think Goffman likes Ichabod for comic relief and as a prop for Katrina.

Scary thought.

I don't think that Goffman finds Ichabod interesting either. He sees Crane as a vehicle to showcase Katrina, that's it.

GMTA!!

[DeLurker]

I actually think white women watch for Ichabod.  OTOH, black women seem to watch for Abbie.  With some crossover, obviously.  Ironically, I think it is Orlando Jones who is the attraction & ambassador of the show for the hip, young genre crowd the show really needs to thrive.  Go figure. 

 

<snip>

One thing that makes me nervous on Sleepy Hollow's behalf is that Empire will be debuting in January.  And if anything has a POC demographic in its' sights it is that show.  if enough POC are mad enough at SH to jump ship that is where they may jump ship to.   

Great post DearEvette - sorry to abbreviate it.  I'm a WOc (small c because I am mixed race and depending on the local areas population I can default into white or Asian), and Ich/Tom Mison was/is not my draw to watching (I've admitted before I just watched the pilot in anticipation of some good bad tv).  As a parent of a preteen daughter, I loved Abbie's character - smart, capable, tough (but not hard or cold), involved with the bsc storyline and not just pretty window dressing.  Then they added Jenny who started out as a pretty linear standard issue damaged character and really fleshed her out.  Add in Orlando Jones and John Cho, periodic appearances by Clancy Brown?  I'm seriously a happy little Sleepy Head in the good ol'days of Season 1.

 

Empire I'll give a try because of Taraji P Henson although it is doubtful I'll stick around because topically it falls out of my interest range.  Interestingly, Taraji P Henson's role on Person of Interest was initially so hard to take because they were so ham handed telling the viewers how her Det. Carter was the most specialist of all the snowflakes*.  TPH/Carter were fine and eventually they got to where they were allowing the viewers to see that she was pretty awesome instead of telling us she was awesome (hmmm...sounds awfully familiar here in Sleepy Hollow).  And then they killed her and there was much sadness.

 

* I loved PoI from the start, but there were some rough patches in Season 1 before they consistently hit the right tone and stride.  For me that was most noticeable with Carter - it was never about how she was portrayed or her dialogue, it was about how other people who did not know her that well saw how she was so wunnerful without the audience ever seeing evidence of it. 

 

 

Weren’t there supposed to be four horsemen that needed to rise before Moloch could, so where the hell were the other two horsemen in the mid-season finale? What the hell was the point of Moloch stalking Abbie & Jenny when they were kids if the Apocalypse was going to be reduced to the Crane Family Drama hour that hadn’t been dealt with two centuries ago but was now being addressed in the present time

And if Moloch was preemptively stalking Abbie and Jenny, why didn't he do that with Ich waybackwhen? 

 

 

Goffman shows a lack of respect for what the the sci-fi/fantasy/comic book genre is built on

Start with a classic, The Legend of Sleepy Hollow + the Book of Revelation +  actual historic events (with some literary license) and somehow he decides Katrina the Millinial Witch is the most compelling story in that blender.

 

Katrina needs to die and there will be much rejoicing.

 

ETA: to correct random;y added letters to another poster's name.

Edited December 9, 2014 by DeLurker

[jhlipton]

Empire I'll give a try because of Taraji P Henson although it is doubtful I'll stick around because topically it falls out of my interest range.  

 

I encourage anyone who's even thinking about Empire to give The Lion in Winter a look-see (I encourage everyone I know to see it.  Peter O' Toole and Katherine Hepburn at the top of their game).  It's how history should be taught!  I don't much care for rap music (especially after the death of diverse hip-hop) but it will be interesting to see how it plays out.

[BestestAuntEver]

I encourage anyone who's even thinking about Empire to give The Lion in Winter a look-see (I encourage everyone I know to see it. Peter O' Toole and Katherine Hepburn at the top of their game). It's how history should be taught! I don't much care for rap music (especially after the death of diverse hip-hop) but it will be interesting to see how it plays out.

I have seen The Lion in Winter and have to agree. I'm going to watch Empire because of TPH, TH and Lee Daniels. The detailed concept gives me hope that the show is more than a series of tropes.

I'm still irritated that Sleepy Hollow has veered so far from its initial premise. It boggles my mind that showrunners and networks will change a show and then are amazed when viewers complain and/or drope the show.

Edited December 9, 2014 by BestestAuntEver

[HalcyonDays]

I just finished watching an episode of Forever, a show that is like a weird mix of SH's Ichabod Crane and Castle. The lead character - Henry - is British, and at one point said something, referring to a Lieutenant. As is English proper, he pronounced it Lef-tenant. And my heart broke. Because all I could think was  - I miss my Abbie + Ichabod interactions. I miss the snarky bouncing off each other....I miss the original feel of the show. Goddamn you, Goffman.

[Indi]

Katrina needs to die and there will be much rejoicing.

 

Goffman would still find a way to make her present out of spite. Ichy would whine about her every episode. How she was the greatest purest most epic love he could ever had and that he longs for his death to be reunited with her.

[blixie]

That reminds me of another big difference from year one to two, and not that anyone here hasn't already mentioned it, but the URGENCY is totally gone, Headless and Moloch were very much like The OG Terminator and The Apocolypse in that movie, and like OG Terminator Abbie/Ichabod were like Sarah and Kyle, trying to save themselves and the world, even when they had their interludes about ON Star, that sense of impending doom, of enemies that would always be coming for them infused every interaction and helped them "love a lifetime". OKAY OKAY allow me my fantasies, but seriously it did facilitate the forging of their bond quite quickly. Season 2 started with a bang and then just sat there and let Henry have tantrum for 8 episodes,and not much of anything happened except CFD, which was insufferable to watch, while the freaking Apocolypse took a smoke and coffee break.

[DeLurker]

Goffman would still find a way to make her present out of spite.

True true...Goffman must d̶i̶e̶  umm...cease being even remotely associated with SH.  He can stalk poor Katia Winter on his own dime and time. 

[Moonsky]

Start with a classic, The Legend of Sleepy Hollow + the Book of Revelation +  actual historic events (with some literary license) and somehow he decides Katrina the Millinial Witch is the most compelling story in that blender.

 

 

Exactly. Like forget being a viewer for a moment, as presently written & portrayed I’m not sure how any good producer/writer can look at the characters of Ichabod, Abbie, Jenny, Frank, Henry, Abraham, & Katrina and believe that out of all of those characters the one that deserves the most storylines centered around them or leading back to them is Katrina. Like WTF? That’s why I don’t take Goffman seriously in interviews when he spouts off about Katrina being a powerful witch or great female character because that line of thinking actually flies in the face of logic when you see the way Abbie & Jenny were written from day one. You don’t need to be a kickass woman with a gun to be a great female character but your motivations should be written in a compelling way & your characterization should not involve multiple negative female tropes that writers should try to avoid as much as possible in this day & age especially if the character is not stuck in a time frame or circumstance where that characterization would make sense while at the same time still calling her a strong female character.

 

The way Goffman speaks about Katrina, reminds me of other showrunners that always fixated on that one character out of an ensemble cast for sometimes good reasons & for sometimes not so good reasons because they represented something personal to them that they wanted to explore more in the story. For example, I use to watch LOST back in the day & if I’m remembering correctly one of the showrunners use to talk about how he had father issues that he never got to deal with before his father died, so the show was a way for him to work out those issues that he had. That’s why the show had a lot of parental issues that were brought up especially for the lead male character Jack. When I look at Goffman’s weird obsession for what is almost universally agreed upon by critics & fans as bad writing for a female character that he keeps saying is a strong/great female character, I get more of the sense that Katrina represents his fantasy female character which to him then automatically makes her a great female character, so that’s why when people rightfully object to the sexist tropes that she represents, he doesn’t see them as a negative because to him they work when thinking of what a great female character should represent.

 

I just finished watching an episode of Forever, a show that is like a weird mix of SH's Ichabod Crane and Castle. The lead character - Henry - is British, and at one point said something, referring to a Lieutenant. As is English proper, he pronounced it Lef-tenant. And my heart broke. Because all I could think was  - I miss my Abbie + Ichabod interactions. I miss the snarky bouncing off each other....I miss the original feel of the show. Goddamn you, Goffman.

 

 

Before the fall television season started, I decided to watch The Flash & I thought along with Sleepy Hollow, it was going to be great to watch two genre shows on back to back nights. I wasn’t really expecting The Flash to be as entertaining as I ended up finding it but with each episode of it that went by that I enjoyed & with each episode of Sleepy Hollow that left me so unsatisfied, it led me to instead of just watching The Flash for the entertainment value of that show, made me want Tuesday’s to hurry up so that I could get the unsatisfied feeling that Monday night’s Sleepy Hollow episode left me with, which is not the way a viewer should be feeling after watching the majority of a season’s episodes, so I’m done with watching Sleepy Hollow for now.

 

That reminds me of another big difference from year one to two, and not that anyone here hasn't already mentioned it, but the URGENCY is totally gone, Headless and Moloch were very much like The OG Terminator and The Apocolypse in that movie, and like OG Terminator Abbie/Ichabod were like Sarah and Kyle, trying to save themselves and the world, even when they had their interludes about ON Star, that sense of impending doom, of enemies that would always be coming for them infused every interaction and helped them "love a lifetime". OKAY OKAY allow me my fantasies, but seriously it did facilitate the forging of their bond quite quickly. Season 2 started with a bang and then just sat there and let Henry have tantrum for 8 episodes,and not much of anything happened except CFD, which was insufferable to watch, while the freaking Apocolypse took a smoke and coffee break.

 

 

This is why I stated that this season has had way too many pacing issues. I didn’t find the mid-season finale that interesting but even if the show wanted to raise the stakes of the war during the last two episodes, that still wasn’t a good enough excuse for why the majority of the season had to lag so much between the first episode & the mid-season finale. Like I could have understood if I only found three-fourths of the 11 episodes entertaining but the rest a little dull but I’m not even joking when I said that I only liked 3 out of 11 of them & maybe 4 if I’m being generous but for the most part in all of the other episodes I probably liked 5-20 minutes out of those episodes. It was hard for the show to keep my attention for most episodes this season, so after I finished watching them my first thought would be “oookkkay well that was uneventful” because even when I thought they would take time this season to flesh out the characters & storyline more, I still didn’t expect to be subjected to this season’s borefest. Also, it’s not only that the quality of the show has gone down under Goffman’s watch since many of the other showrunners of season one are concentrating on their other projects like Scorpion & Star Trek, but it’s also that many of the writers from season one are gone & so some of the scenes that these new writers have written just don’t come off as natural as they would have if written by some of the writers from last season.

 

I gave the show until the mid-season finale to gage if I wanted to live watch the rest of season two but since my interest in the show dwindled each week, I’m going to stop watching. After the season ends if I read multiple reviews from fans & critics that lets me know that the show got better in the second half or that certain episodes were worth watching then I may choose to download those particular episodes, but other than hearing about signs of consistent & real improvement with this show which if it does happen most likely won’t happen until next season, then my days of real time & regularly watching Sleepy Hollow are done.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Moonsky

[savinggrace]

I miss when this show scared me so much I had to watch it the following afternoon because watching it at night creeped me out. I don't think anything has frightened me this season.

[phoenics]

Wow - I thought I was the only one who also watched the Flash and literally felt like I NEEDED The Flash to help make me feel better after the travesty of SH on Monday night.

I think I'm going to just stop watching and if people say the show improves, I'll catch up after the season ends.

I do think that Moonsky is right... Goffman is working through some stuff and using the Katrina character to do it. I think Ichabod Crane is his avatar to work through those issues - which is why he's so focused on CFD and also why he's so tone deaf to criticism that the CFD and Katrina focus is killing the show.

Such a shame.

[DeLurker]

I think I'll start watching The Flash.

Wonder if Goffman brings the SH eps to his therapy sessions? If he's married, his wife should bring them to her divorce attorney.

[savinggrace]

If they wanted Ichabod to have a link with the past they should have kept the Masons and that bad-assed priest from the premiere episode. I feel like we would have gotten a lot more useful info and interesting stories from that lot than we are getting from Crane's wife and BFF Abraham. Plus we would have kept that man out of time element unique to Ichabod.

[phoenics]

Agreed - about using the Masons to fill in Ichabod's backstory more.

The other issue with tying Ichabod so firmly to Katrina and Abraham? It makes Ichabod look like a bungling, accidental, directionless man who was duped or led by the nose into his Witness role. Not that he had any strength of purpose on his own. The penultimate winter finale episode made it seem like Ichabod wasn't really about much at all and had no real strength or conviction at all.

Abraham looked more convicted than he did.

The writers kinda flipped them a bit.

And I honestly believe that's more to give Katrina more storyline - I hate this. Ichabod has been all but destroyed to prop Katrina up.

I think I'll start watching The Flash.

Wonder if Goffman brings the SH eps to his therapy sessions? If he's married, his wife should bring them to her divorce attorney.

You should definitely start watching The Flash.

[Moonsky]

Wow - I thought I was the only one who also watched the Flash and literally felt like I NEEDED The Flash to help make me feel better after the travesty of SH on Monday night.

 

 

I think I'll start watching The Flash.

 

 

It had been a few years since I last watched a CW show but I’m usually curious when I hear about a popular comic book character being brought to life on the small or big screen, so I wanted to check The Flash out & so far I’ve liked the show. That could always change in the future but I think the writing for the individual characters, the relationships between them, & the world building that the creators of the show have set up so far are interesting to me so I just hope that the show continues to get even better as it grows. I’ll probably check out Arrow one day too but since I haven’t watched that show from the start, I don’t really want to start off by watching current episodes, so I’ll have to wait until I have the time to watch that show from the beginning to see if it’s really a show that I’ll be interested in.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Moonsky

[TwistedandBored]

I agree with those that said the urgency was gone in season 2. I think this is mainly because none of us viewers found the evil guys that threatening anymore. The mystery of the bad guys was gone. 

[starchild215]

Glad I'm not alone in watching the Flash. Nice world building there. 

[cynic]

You should definitely start watching The Flash.

I concur! I'm not a big comic book fan and most superhero tv/movie adaptations leave me cold, but I'm really enjoying The Flash. It's still finding its legs and it can be a little goofy, but it's shaping up to be a fun show with likeable characters. Plus, it's doing a good job so far on the diversity front.

Edited December 10, 2014 by cynic

[BestestAuntEver]

It had been a few years since I last watched a CW show but I’m usually curious when I hear about a popular comic book character being brought to life on the small or big screen, so I wanted to check The Flash out & so far I’ve liked the show. That could always change in the future but I think the writing for the individual characters, the relationships between them, & the world building that the creators of the show have set up so far are interesting to me so I just hope that the show continues to get even better as it grows. I’ll probably check out Arrow one day too but since I haven’t watched that show from the start, I don’t really want to start off by watching current episodes, so I’ll have to wait until I have the time to watch that show from the beginning to see if it’s really a show that I’ll be interested in.

All of this is me, from The Flash to Arrow. I kept hearing about the Flash and finally watched. ITA. The story, world building and relationships are what kept me coming back. Thus far, they've found a way to show romance/longing without dragging down the show.

The sad thing is, I would say SH overall had better actors and chemistry especially during season one. The move from Sci-fi/fantasy to the Crane family melodrama romance hour filled with tropes and mishap world building has killed the fun and delight in my viewership.

Goffman's push of Katrina as the bestest Witch, most beautiful woman evah and the specialist snow flake evah didn't help. Add Ichabod being made into a douchecanoe. Abbie being sidelined and marginalized. Jenny/Frank disappearing.

[jhlipton]

There were hints of that in that so cold scene of the Cranes in bed watching TV. To me her being a creature of the bad guys is the only way her acting choices make sense.

 

The problem for me was that Ich was just as cold in that scene (and is pretty cold with Katrina over all).  She may not <3 <3 LOVE <3 <3 him, but I don't get the feeling he <3 <3 LOVES <3 <3 her either.  She seems like a prize that he taunts Abraham with (and did that scene in the bar make Ich look like a jerk -- "Here's the love of my life!" "Gee, I think I'll court her and try to steal her away.").  And that "I will always beat you" or whatever -- guh.  Not the Ichabod I signed up for.

I think I'm going to just stop watching and if people say the show improves, I'll catch up after the season ends.

 

 

Sad now.  I for one will miss your comments.

 

=========================================

 

Ye who like The Flash and Arrow, have you seen Gotham?  Jada Smith is having a ton of fun as one of the second-level (but still pretty powerful) crime bosses, and the rest of the cast is pretty good.  Oswald Cobblepot (aka "The Penguin") is perfect and having Carol Kane as his mother (with definite Boundary issues!) is a hoot.

[BestestAuntEver]

Ye who like The Flash and Arrow, have you seen Gotham? Jada Smith is having a ton of fun as one of the second-level (but still pretty powerful) crime bosses, and the rest of the cast is pretty good. Oswald Cobblepot (aka "The Penguin") is perfect and having Carol Kane as his mother (with definite Boundary issues!) is a hoot.

I watch. The funny Thing is I was iffy about Jada being cast. I was going to give the show a try due to the premise and Benjamin Mckenzie, loved him on Southland. Jada's performance has been a surprise and treat.

I'm one of the people that was watching Gotham and SH live, then started watching SH on delay and finally letting the episodes sit. I still haven't viewed the Akeda.

Edited December 10, 2014 by BestestAuntEver

[ChelseaNH]

"Gee, I think I'll court her and try to steal her away."

 

Except he didn't court her.  They tried to be friends, since they spent so much time in each other's company, and Katrina made the decision to break it off with Abraham.  Ichabod didn't want to be the reason for the breakup, but Katrina pointed out that regardless of how she felt about Ichabod, she didn't have strong feelings for Abraham.

 

As for how blood magic works, the answer would be "however the plot dictates."

[phoenics]

Except he didn't court her.  They tried to be friends, since they spent so much time in each other's company, and Katrina made the decision to break it off with Abraham.  Ichabod didn't want to be the reason for the breakup, but Katrina pointed out that regardless of how she felt about Ichabod, she didn't have strong feelings for Abraham.

 

As for how blood magic works, the answer would be "however the plot dictates."

Correct me if I'm wrong - but during those times, wouldn't "friendship" between a man and a woman (especially one who is betrothed) be highly improper and essentially adultery? Because back then a betrothal was considered nearly as airtight as marriage? That's part of why Mary was so incensed - seeing Ichabod with Katrina (alone with her!) was highly improper and actually a situation like that could damage a woman's reputation beyond repair.

I agree with you - Ichabod didn't really "court" her (I think jhlipton was being sarcastic and exaggerating though) - but he did insert himself into a situation he shouldn't have inserted himself into.

But I think the larger point being made about Ichabod in that episode is that in order to add more story for Katrina, they had to add more for Abraham - and in doing so, removed a lot of what we thought was true about Ichabod based on S1. And a lot of that was "good stuff" about Ichabod - when this episode aired it make Ichabod look really, really bad.

I think that was the thread of thought we were discussing - Ichabod declining into doucheness as more backstory/story is given to flesh out Katrina and by extension Abraham.

[kieyra]

Delurking to comment on the Flash/Arrow refuge for bitter viewers:

All of Arrow seasons 1 and 2 are now on Netflix. (Season 3 is airing now.)

Binging S1 & S2 of Arrow over the summer 1) got me through many hours on the treadmill, 2) ignited my first 'shipper' spark after years of drought.

Extremely general Arrow cast spoiler:

Arrow still has a few problems, including a similar issue with a female character who is useless and hated, but *so far* she has not been permitted to eat the show. And throughout the first two seasons at least you have that nice comfortable feeling of a showrunner with a clear vision, and characters you can love who will not be mysteriously lobotomized the next week.

Edited December 11, 2014 by kieyra