The Sleepy Hollow Therapy Thread - What went wrong with Sleepy Hollow?

[phoenics]

I've been thinking about this for a while, and I think the thing that most went wrong with season 2 is pacing.

 

Season 1 was a wild gallop.  Fun, but ultimately that pace is unsustainable over the long haul.  The fact that things kept moving helped distract from how perfunctory the plotting was, but repetition left us familiar with their usual tricks.  It was time to develop some new tricks.  But nobody wants to mess with a successful formula, even if the formula starts to get stale.

 

Season 1 hooked us on this world they created.  Season 2 was the time to step back, explore that world and build a foundation for the future.  Instead, they kept galloping through plot.  It's only midway through Season 2 and they've finished off Moloch.  Is there still an impending apocalypse?  Who's running it?  How many apocalypse CEOs are they going to run through?

 

I would say the main issue with Crane family drama has been the pacing -- they've tried to cram a soap opera's worth of angst into just 11 episodes, at the expense of many more enjoyable elements of the show.  If that element becomes just one of the season's arcs, rather than THE arc of the half season, then I think it would be far more tolerable.

 

So if they slow that down and spread that out, we have more time to spend with Frank and Jenny.  We have time to add Hawley into the mix, not as Designated Love Interest, but as part of the bigger world that we're starting to explore.  We can spend a little more time with Reyes, who is interesting but has so far been kind of irrelevant.  We can see more of Abbie trying to balance her job with her role as Witness.

 

Outside of the Crane family drama, the issues with Katrina don't have much to do with pacing.  The problem with the character is that she can't be as good as advertised.  If she really is a kick-ass witch, then she will be the one solving problems and delivering wins for the team; Abbie and Ichabod can't compete with that kind of power.  In order to keep this a show about the two witnesses, she has to be hamstrung.  The show has been pretty clumsy about doing that.  If they were willing to do some real world building, they could spend some time figuring out how magic works, other than "There's a spell for that."  Then they could establish why Katrina's powers a limited to certain effects, while other things are beyond her.

 

If anything can happen, then nothing matters.  If every problem can be solved by pulling a magic MacGuffin out of your ass, then the show is basically a quest procedural -- threat, MacGuffin, win.  Create a world with rules, and let characters pursue their agendas within those rules -- then you have a sustainable model.  But that takes time they haven't been willing to spend.

You know - I never thought Willow upstaged Buffy. I think the problem is that they have Willow MARRIED to Buffy on Sleepy Hollow and that seems to have made the show runner think that Willow needs to upstage Buffy Half #2.

Buffy worked because the focus was on the leads and the show runners NEVER got that confused.

Sleepy Hollow messed up by keeping Katrina alive. None of the pacing issues can fix the fact that Katrina should have stayed dead in the pilot. All of the mess that is S2 Sleepy Hollow is from this show trying to force Katrina into a story she doesn't fit into.

The original Sleepy Hollow from the book? Yeah - she fits. THIS Sleepy Hollow where the focus is supposed to be the two Witnesses fighting the Apocalypse? No - she doesn't fit.

[Bad Bitch In Red]

I'm just gonna leave this here #katrinaruinedsleepyhollow, though it should really be #goffmanruinedsleepyhollow.

[phoenics]

There was an article from earlier this yeah (I forget where) that basically has Goffman saying they dumbed things down a little to appeal to a wider audience. I am completely serious. Sad, isn't it?

That is the WRONG thing to do with a sci-fi show! Ugh!

[savinggrace]

I wonder who first proposed in the writing room that it would be more interesting to explore the relationship between a Colonial man and his wife than explore the relationship between that same man in modern times with a Black female police officer. Even on paper one of those premises jumps out as more interesting than the other. There are any number of period movies and books detailing relationships between White people of yore. Why on earth did they plunge a supposed Sci Fi show into those saturated waters?

[marceline]

There was an article from earlier this yeah (I forget where) that basically has Goffman saying they dumbed things down a little to appeal to a wider audience. I am completely serious. Sad, isn't it?

 

 

To quote Florida Evans, "Damn! Damn! DAMN!!"

 

This is exactly what I was talking about. This is a sci-fi show written by someone who doesn't really enjoy sci-fi. That's the exact opposite of what you do in sci-fi. The whole point of world building is to make a canvas as deep and detailed and real as possible. So real that the viewer (or reader) is eager to learn all the new rules. There's a reason I can recite from memory the spell that turned Amy into a rat on BtVS ("Before thee let the unclean thing crawl!"). There's a reason Stephen Colbert spent an entire segment of his show joyously discussing the design of the new lightsaber. It's because those world's seemed so inviting we immersed ourselves in them. Goffman took what could've been Buffy and turned it into The Real World: Sleepy Hollow.

Edited December 3, 2014 by marceline

[HalcyonDays]

I wonder who first proposed in the writing room that it would be more interesting to explore the relationship between a Colonial man and his wife than explore the relationship between that same man in modern times with a Black female police officer. Even on paper one of those premises jumps out as more interesting than the other. There are any number of period movies and books detailing relationships between White people of yore. Why on earth did they plunge a supposed Sci Fi show into those saturated waters?

 

The same person who makes sure to insert the name Katrina whenever he is asked a question about the show?

 

Q: "So what led you to decide to kill off Frank Irving?" A: "Well, we decided that since Katrina lost so much, then we should show the impact of the war...on Katrina...

 

Q: "So how do the modern day citizens of Sleey Hollow react?" a: "Well, we always think it's interesting the various reactions. Katrina's, for example, are varied and....blah blah Katrina blah...."

To quote Florida Evans, "Damn! Damn! DAMN!!"

 

This is exactly what I was talking about. This is a sci-fi show written by someone who doesn't really enjoy sci-fi. That's the exact opposite of what you do in sci-fi. The whole point of world building is to make a canvas as deep and detailed and real as possible. So real that the viewer (or reader) is eager to learn all the new rules. There's a reason I can recite from memory the spell that turned Amy into a rat on BtVS ("Before thee let the unclean thing crawl!"). There's a reason Stephen Colbert spent an entire segment of his show joyously discussing the design of the new lightsaber. It's because those world's seemed so inviting we immersed ourselves in them. Goffman took what could've been Buffy and turned it into The Real World: Sleepy Hollow.

 

The bold is exactly what myself and others have been saying. There was the potential to develop such a rich mythology with the show, whether concerning the old witch covens, what magic Witnesses have and or may develop, the rules to killing Moloch and others, Purgatory and it's rules and residents, how the books provide clues, why did Washington know about all of this, etc...so much to write. I think the writers are just plain lazy and completely uninspired, hence the typical tropes we got this year.

 

So much lost opportunity. It's like seeing someone win $10 million dollars in the lottery, and by years' end they are broke, because they spent it on cars and woman and partying. You could have been set for life, and have so many opportunites, but instead, you did the typical boring bland expected thing, blew through your chances and now are dead broke (and cancelled off of TV).

[BestestAuntEver]

To quote Florida Evans, "Damn! Damn! DAMN!!"

This is exactly what I was talking about. This is a sci-fi show written by someone who doesn't really enjoy sci-fi. That's the exact opposite of what you do in sci-fi. The whole point of world building is to make a canvas as deep and detailed and real as possible. So real that the viewer (or reader) is eager to learn all the new rules. There's a reason I can recite from memory the spell that turned Amy into a rat on BtVS ("Before thee let the unclean thing crawl!"). There's a reason Stephen Colbert spent an entire segment of his show joyously discussing the design of the new lightsaber. It's because those world's seemed so inviting we immersed ourselves in them. Goffman took what could've been Buffy and turned it into The Real World: Sleepy Hollow.

I want to marry this post.

Hello, me name is Bestest. I am a WOC and a Sci-fi fantasy lover of books, shows and sometimes movies. I've been told my face lights up when I talk about Star Trek (all versions), Star Worlds and X-Men. I will admit the amount of euphoria that washes over me while talking about Wolverine (comics, cartoons and movies) needs to be studied, lol.

I can hear some of my friends and families eyes glazing over. *To me, the key to Sci-fi fantasy is world building/mythology. Characters and relationships are important but poor world building /mythology will kill your Sci-fi fantasy story. I've read numerous interpretations of Vampires, werewolves, faeries/fae, shapeshifters, angels, demons, aliens, sentient beings, etc by various authors and could tell you the minute difference in interpretation for each book/story.

At this point, I don't know what specifically is SH mythology and the world building has been inconsistent at best, mainly it's been shitty. I love Abbie and at one point liked Ichabbie but the weak world building, along with horrible plot point character propping writing can't keep me watching this show.

IMO, SH is becoming less Sci-fi fantasy and more Crane family melodrama with harlequin romance and a touch of fish out of water.

* Yes, I've been asked how can I be reading yet another sci-fi fantasy story about <fill in the blank>, again.

[BigEasygirl]

BestestAuntEver, it does seem like it's too late for any significant change.  But it has been said that shooting has been extended to late January/early February, so I'm thinking a lot of scenes may have been scrapped and new ones are going to be re-shot and inserted.  I know a death scene for Katrina needs to be among the re-writes for this show to have any hope.

Edited December 3, 2014 by Reese

[Neurochick]

Here's what will save the show.  Resurrect Irving.

Get rid of Katrina and Henry.  

Otherwise, the show is toast.  Bad enough I'm only half watching Sleepy Hollow, as I'm usually watching "Homeland" on the computer.

The end.

Edited December 3, 2014 by Neurochick

[starchild215]

What really takes a different turn is between Katrina and Crane, as well. There’s a lot of curiosity about why Katrina is struggling with her powers and her place in this war, and I’ve heard people say is her character underutilized — I would say there’s a difference between underutilized and not realized. When she discovers her full potential, things really get out of control."

 

They just don't get it do they? No.One.Gives.A.Flying.F**k.About.Katrina.

Not the critics and not the fans. A great show is being killed by a man's obsession with an actress who is the weakest link among the featured actors. The show completely changes whenever Winter is on the screen and not for the better. The show was about Abbie and Crane and how they navigated this strange new world of trust and committment while focused on a common goal. Katrina should've been gone in S1 so that the focus could remain where it should be, on Abbie and Crane.

 

I wonder whose favorite Winter is?

[BigEasygirl]

Except she managed to contact Ichabod in practically every Season 1 episode using what, exactly?  I do think it would be interesting to explore what 200 years of captivity could do to a person, but they haven't even remotely done that, and I have no faith in their ability to pull it off now if they tried.

No, they really couldn't.  But if they want to, then they need give her a spin off.  Although Goffman seems to have conveniently forgotten it, SH is a show about two (count 'em) two Witness named Ichabod Crane and Grace Abigail Mills. 

 

Katrina is an unnecessary peripheral character that doesn't need or require exposition or exploration.  She adds nothing to the narrative.  A vast majority of viewers couldn't care less about why she can't perform magic and are bewildered as to why she's even still around.   I know I am.  This post/rant isn't directed at you, ChelseaNH.  I'm just hella frustrated right now.  I just think well meaning posts across social media attempting to give purpose to Katrina over the course of the show have inadvertently provided Goffman with the fuel necessary to launch his agenda to make her a co-lead in place of Abbie.  People wanting her to have some use gave him an basis which he's used to justify giving her all this story.  Never mind that no one asked for Katrina to usurp Abbie's position or make Ichabod a tool to give her story.  He used the existence of reasonable requests (like making her evil for example), while discounting them, to do what he's doing now:  ruining the show to prop her.

 

So I'm done with trying to find her a place or a raison d'être.  The only Katrina I want to see at this point is a dead Katrina.  Not even mostly dead.  Just dead and gone.  That's it.

[pcta]

A young black woman's review of what went wrong. Touching to me.

http://youtu.be/Y6fVhAyVqKk?ac

[starchild215]

Many of us have seen the kind of work John Noble can do via Fringe. When he was brought in towards the end of S1 I thought his character had potential. It was the elevation of the Katrina character that ruined the dynamic of the show. 

 

I didn't know Winter tweeted something against the show she's working on. What did she think wouldl happen? When did she tweet whatever she did? And why haven't the showrunners gotten rid of her for doing that? Oh wait, she's their special snow flake.

[RiddleyWalker]

OK, I'm here for some "therapy" so I'm going to rant about the mythology of the show for a bit. There have been some excellent posts regarding this upthread by marceline, HalcyonDays and BestestAuntEver and many others but I thought I'd post anyway. If they emphasized certain characters (Abbie, Jenny, Frank and Ichabod) eliminated others (Katrina) and used others in better ways (John Noble and Hawley), the show would be more enjoyable but still not great. There remains the slap-dash, half-baked, ever-changing mythology. 

 

The mythology should be the backbone of the show-- the scaffold that the plotting, characterization and action is built upon. The mythology of SH has all the "backbone" of a squid. Early on they seemed to be using the book of Revelation as their key text with Ichabod and Abbie as the "Witnesses" mentioned there. They mentioned the seven years of Tribulation and the need to keep the Four Horseman from rising. Pretty ambitious I think, but still a workable mythology. Last season they tied the good and evil witch covens to the mythology, the Masons and the Hessians and it still seemed to work.   This year it doesn't seem to be necessary to raise the four Horseman to start the Apocalypse. This year we've seen no covens of witches-good or bad- and no Masons. The Hessians had a brief cameo as Henry's henchmen but that's it. And now, the Big Bad of the season so far, Moloch, is dead and the show-runners plan on drawing on "other traditions" going forward. 

 

They appear to be scrapping the whole Season 1 mythology and plan on starting over. That might not be a bad idea given how things have gone so far but I have little hope that they'll build a mythology and a world that is compelling and where we know the stakes and what the Witnesses' duty is. They seem to have no interest in thinking things through to develop the mythology. They don't need to lay it all out in front of us right from the start, but it should all fit together and when they reveal something that makes previous episodes make sense, there needs to be more than a little diorama with a pentagram on it as the payoff.

 

Please,Mr CEO of FOX, fire the show-runner and the writers and hire some new ones. It can't be any worse than it has been….Please?

Edited December 3, 2014 by RiddleyWalker

[HalcyonDays]

I didn't know Winter tweeted something against the show she's working on. What did she think wouldl happen? When did she tweet whatever she did? And why haven't the showrunners gotten rid of her for doing that? Oh wait, she's their special snow flake.

 

Before the Deliverance episode, she tweeted a comment that Ichabbie shippers would be "happy", because the promos made it seem like her life was in serious danger (which is was) and there was a chance she would be killed off. Special snow flake indeed.

 

The mythology should be the backbone of the show-- the scaffold that the plotting, characterization and action is built upon. The mythology of SH has all the "backbone" of a squid. Early on they seemed to be using the book of Revelation as their key text with Ichabod and Abbie as the "Witnesses" mentioned there. They mentioned the seven years of Tribulation and the need to keep the Four Horseman from rising. Pretty ambitious I think, but still a workable mythology. Last season they tied the good and evil witch covens to the mythology, the Masons and the Hessians and it still seemed to work.   This year it doesn't seem to be necessary to raise the four Horseman to start the Apocalypse. This year we've seen no covens of witches-good or bad- and no Masons. The Hessians had a brief cameo as Henry's henchmen but that's it. And now, the Big Bad of the season so far, Moloch, is dead and the show-runners plan on drawing on "other traditions" going forward. 

 

<snip>

 

Please,Mr CEO of FOX, fire the show-runner and the writers and hire some new ones. It can't be any worse than it has been….Please?

 

Fantastic post, RiddleyWalker and spot on. There is something strange going on behind the scenes of this show. Orci and Kurtzman are gone off on other projects. Most of the writers from last year are gone and Goffman is now running the show. Why would so many writers leave after one year? Even the head Costume Designer bailed before this season was over. That change in dynamic in the writers room changed the dynamic of the show. I have heard rumours that some of the new writers weren't even sure about the characters - i.e. didn't do their research and really understand the characters as already presented on screen.

[RiddleyWalker]

 

….. There is something strange going on behind the scenes of this show. Orci and Kurtzman are gone off on other projects. Most of the writers from last year are gone and Goffman is now running the show. Why would so many writers leave after one year? Even the head Costume Designer bailed before this season was over. That change in dynamic in the writers room changed the dynamic of the show. I have heard rumours that some of the new writers weren't even sure about the characters - i.e. didn't do their research and really understand the characters as already presented on screen.

I don't do Twitter, but is it time to start a #MarkGoffmanRuinedSleepyHollow tag?

 

ETA: I'm new to this fandom and entertainment thing, but my experience in the military and my knowledge of professional sports franchises is that the "coach" has to take responsibility for the results of the team (and the commander is responsible for the performance of his unit).  In the entertainment industry, it may be more difficult to measure success and low ratings doesn't necessarily mean an artistic failure, but in Season 2, Sleepy Hollow has not only declined in ratings but has been pretty universally panned by critics. I've been watching Fringe lately  as I never watched on air and there is just a quantum difference in quality of writing, the use of the myth-arc and characters compared to SH (and yet, it never had actors with the charisma and chemistry that Tom Mison and Nicole Beharie had). Yes, Fringe started out a bit rough but straightened things out and is a real pleasure to watch despite it's generally low ratings. 

 

I was willing to give the SH Show-runner and writers the benefit of the doubt, but having seen the mid-season finale, which they were so proud of, I'm convinced of their incompetence with this show and they need to be replaced ASAP.

Edited December 4, 2014 by RiddleyWalker

[Yolapukka]

 What went wrong with Sleepy Hollow?  A flock of nincompoops descended on it and tried to convince me that a wig-stand was an interesting character and thought I'd enjoy deep emotional resonance in an elderly whiny-pants whinging about his parents instead of all the audacious fun that went on last season.

Edited December 4, 2014 by yuggapukka

[90 Day Pinochet]

I don't do Twitter, but is it time to start a #MarkGoffmanRuinedSleepyHollow tag?

....

I've been watching Fringe lately  as I never watched on air and there is just a quantum difference in quality of writing, the use of the myth-arc and characters compared to SH (and yet, it never had actors with the charisma and chemistry that Tom Mison and Nicole Beharie had). Yes, Fringe started out a bit rough but straightened things out and is a real pleasure to watch despite it's generally low ratings.

....

 

I don't do twitter either but your comment made me go check out Mark Goffman's twitter page. One of the first things I saw was he retweeted a tweet in support of Marti Noxon. Figures.

 

Kurtzman and Orci were able to take an uneven first season of Fringe and create a world

, or more accurately worlds,

with texture, depth, compelling backstory, and WALTER! Given how fantastic the first season of Sleepy Hollow was it makes you wonder what the second season could have been if the show was still in their hands...

 

Wait, assuming the Multiverse hypothesis, there is a universe in which a Fauxrci and Kurtzmalternate are stilling running Sleepy Hollow...

 

/starts immediately trying to replicate Walter's reality bending window

[BigEasygirl]

Here's an article about Goffman.  I thought I'd put it here since most of have come to the conclusion that he's the (major) reason for what's gone wrong with SH this season.

 

http://www.ssninsider.com/showrunner-spotlight-mark-goffman-sleepy-hollow/

Edited December 4, 2014 by Reese

[HalcyonDays]

You know, I am starting to think the show's decline has nothing to do with Goffman forcing in Katrina/Katia and Noble/Henry and more a case of writer's hurt ego and wounded pride. Here is my fanwank:

 

The writers started working on season 2 in February. Filming started in June. That's almost five months of time they could have spent hammering out the mythology, writing a few scripts and really nailing down where they were going. At the time, we were told that Abbie would be in Purgatory for 5-6 episodes. Recently, I heard she was supposed to be there until episode 11, since in this episode, the worlds merged, it would be how she got out. (what a terrible idea to sideline her that long!)

 

Rumour is that when FOX heard this, they stepped in and said, no way! You cannot sideline Abbie for that long. Episode 1 was changed. We were supposed to see Abbie in the Dollhouse, Abbie was to see her mom, there were supposed to be Crane fighting zombies and Andy popped up in a cop car. That opening scene in Mama with Abbie's dream - that was shot for episode 1 (look at her hair). The zombies in episode 11 - that scene was supposed to be in episode 1.

 

So Goffman has this great vision of what he wants to do, and FOX steps in and says "No bloody way." Goffman is pissed - how can this network not understand his genius, his vision, his great writing skills? So he retaliates. "I'll show them." He thinks. YOUR vision will end up reducing the ratings, MY vision is superior. You'll see.. as he shakes his fist at FOX.

 

So the team start to crank out scripts. First, he foists a character that everyone complained about last year, pretending he loves he, but he knows better. So he gives us more of her, but saddles her with the most boring and typical and sexist TV tropes, AND makes her completely useless. He destroys Ichabod's character, making him an absolute idiot with no honour. He sidelines Jenny and Frank, popular characters. The only one who escapes character assassination is Abbie, who instead gets pushed to the side. It's why the mythology makes absolutely no sense and he decided to axe the whole seven years of tribulation, four horseman thing....

 

He's deliberately trying to kill the show. That's why so many people are wondering how on earth can things have gotten so bad. It's deliberate. How else to explain such a clusterfuck of a season 2.

 

It's like he is incredibly upset that FOX didn't bow to his ideas and dared to demanded changes, and in his bitterness is trying his damnest to sink the show. All wounded ego and hurt pride.

[Indi]

Maybe, but I don't think so. His infatuation with Katia and Katrina happened last season and he made it clear in every interview. There has been no change in his attitude, when it comes to her. All of this deflecting and not wanting to talk about Abbie and Nicole, but praising Katrina and pushing her superiority was already happening last season. He promised much more screentime for Katrina for this season, as soon as the last one ended. He was also selling the big love story between the Cranes, the break up and the reconciliation.

 

The only thing that has changed is Abbie's story. His plan was to keep her in purgatory and out of the main plot for as long as possible. This guy isn't subtle about his preferences and dislikes. He wanted to relegate her to Katrina's S1 role. Something tells me he wanted to show how unnecessary Abbie was for the success of the show, so that he could justify killing her off this season and hail Katrina as the true female lead and hero, but FOX didn't let him. There is pettiness yes, but I don't think he's trying to tank the show. He just needed to work around orders from FOX, which explains why Abbie's role has been so eroded, that she barely counts, while Katrina has taken over and has been proven right all along. It also explains why Abbie and her family have had barely any focus, while Katrina has hogged most of it and will continue doing so after the break, as Goffman promised. 

[RiddleyWalker]

......

 

He's deliberately trying to kill the show. That's why so many people are wondering how on earth can things have gotten so bad. It's deliberate. How else to explain such a clusterfuck of a season 2.

 

It's like he is incredibly upset that FOX didn't bow to his ideas and dared to demanded changes, and in his bitterness is trying his damnest to sink the show. All wounded ego and hurt pride

It's interesting to speculate on Goffman's motivations, character obsessions, etc but regardless of the reasons, I think it's clear that he's destroying the show and the results reflect this in the ratings, fan dissatisfaction/anger and criticism of the show in the media. The only hope for the show is for Goffman to be fired and a new show-runner hired along with new writers. Imagine the joy amongst SleepyHeads if FOX made that announcement! :)

Edited December 4, 2014 by RiddleyWalker

[starchild215]

I read that interview with Goffman and all I came away with is that he's a great name dropper. He worked with SORKIN on "West Wing". How many times did that come up? No questions about how the character he created as a love interest for the Pretty (that's what I call Neil) almost ruined that show. I stopped watching because it got stupid. He destroyed the dynamic there too.

 

Maybe Halcyon is right and he's annoyed that HIS VISION was rejected so he's force feeding his vision down peoples throats in a roundabout way and guess what? His vision sucks. 

 

Winter was not tested for chemistry with anyone, let alone Mison, because she wasn't supposed to be around this long! The lack of chemistry doesn't bother Goffman because his vision of the show is not the mythology/world that was created in S1. He wants to create some soap opera of a great love spanning time and that is not what SH was created to be.

 

I fully expect Fox to step in and get rid of his butt. Then this season can all be a fever dream of Henry maybe and we can get back to the world created in S1.

[Morrigan2575]

I read that interview with Goffman and all I came away with is that he's a great name dropper. He worked with SORKIN on "West Wing". How many times did that come up? No questions about how the character he created as a love interest for the Pretty (that's what I call Neil) almost ruined that show. I stopped watching because it got stupid. He destroyed the dynamic there too.

Refresh my memory, I don't recall a Neil on The West Wing and who was the love interest he created?

[TV Juriste]

I've been thinking about this for a while, and I think the thing that most went wrong with season 2 is pacing.

 

Season 1 was a wild gallop.  Fun, but ultimately that pace is unsustainable over the long haul.  The fact that things kept moving helped distract from how perfunctory the plotting was, but repetition left us familiar with their usual tricks.  It was time to develop some new tricks.  But nobody wants to mess with a successful formula, even if the formula starts to get stale.

 

Season 1 hooked us on this world they created.  Season 2 was the time to step back, explore that world and build a foundation for the future.  Instead, they kept galloping through plot.  It's only midway through Season 2 and they've finished off Moloch.  Is there still an impending apocalypse?  Who's running it?  How many apocalypse CEOs are they going to run through?

 

I would say the main issue with Crane family drama has been the pacing -- they've tried to cram a soap opera's worth of angst into just 11 episodes, at the expense of many more enjoyable elements of the show.  If that element becomes just one of the season's arcs, rather than THE arc of the half season, then I think it would be far more tolerable.

 

So if they slow that down and spread that out, we have more time to spend with Frank and Jenny.  We have time to add Hawley into the mix, not as Designated Love Interest, but as part of the bigger world that we're starting to explore.  We can spend a little more time with Reyes, who is interesting but has so far been kind of irrelevant.  We can see more of Abbie trying to balance her job with her role as Witness.

 

Outside of the Crane family drama, the issues with Katrina don't have much to do with pacing.  The problem with the character is that she can't be as good as advertised.  If she really is a kick-ass witch, then she will be the one solving problems and delivering wins for the team; Abbie and Ichabod can't compete with that kind of power.  In order to keep this a show about the two witnesses, she has to be hamstrung.  The show has been pretty clumsy about doing that.  If they were willing to do some real world building, they could spend some time figuring out how magic works, other than "There's a spell for that."  Then they could establish why Katrina's powers a limited to certain effects, while other things are beyond her.

 

If anything can happen, then nothing matters.  If every problem can be solved by pulling a magic MacGuffin out of your ass, then the show is basically a quest procedural -- threat, MacGuffin, win.  Create a world with rules, and let characters pursue their agendas within those rules -- then you have a sustainable model.  But that takes time they haven't been willing to spend.

Excellent analysis. Here's what's interesting - time is exactly what they were given with the larger episode order.

[starchild215]

Refresh my memory, I don't recall a Neil on The West Wing and who was the love interest he created?

Neil is the Matt Bomer character on "White Collar". That sentence could use a bit of editing! LOL. Sorry for the confusion.

[Morrigan2575]

Neil is the Matt Bomer character on "White Collar". That sentence could use a bit of editing! LOL. Sorry for the confusion.

Ah, OK. Got it now.

[cynic]

...

Rumour is that when FOX heard this, they stepped in and said, no way! You cannot sideline Abbie for that long. ...

Well hell, now I really dislike Goffman for putting me on the same side as FOX. I never thought I would agree with network interference, especially theirs, but I'm glad they stepped in. I only wish that they would step in more and fix this whole Henry/Katrina mess. C'mon FOX! Oh crap, this just feels weird.

I wonder if Hawley was originally intended to "replace" Abbie as Crane's partner while she was in purgatory then. Maybe that's why there was so much of him. I actually like Hawley and his chemistry with Crane, but ugh.

Yeah, the focus on Neal's lame girlfriend and screwing with the chemistry and partnership between Matt Bomer and Tim DeKay is what ruined White Collar for me. Thanks again, Goffman!

Edited December 4, 2014 by cynic

[Amethyst]

He's deliberately trying to kill the show. That's why so many people are wondering how on earth can things have gotten so bad. It's deliberate. How else to explain such a clusterfuck of a season 2.

 

It's like he is incredibly upset that FOX didn't bow to his ideas and dared to demanded changes, and in his bitterness is trying his damnest to sink the show. All wounded ego and hurt pride.

 

Even if he succeeded in killing the show, this would seriously hurt Goffman in the long run.  No one would give him another showrunning gig if he's known as the jackass who ran a successful show into the ground this soon.  When Tim Kring ruined Heroes (and did he ever) it took him a few years to get another gig.  It had lousy ratings and barely any press.  And Kring had the previously successful Crossing Jordan to back him up.  This is Goffman's first time running the show and he's already screwing up.  Word gets around.  

 

I fully expect Fox to step in and get rid of his butt. Then this season can all be a fever dream of Henry maybe and we can get back to the world created in S1.

 

That's what I'm hoping for.  FOX has to be aware of the clusterfuck Goffman is creating, especially since the majority of the criticisms are all the same.  The bottom line is money and viewers and they're losing both with Goffman at the helm.

[HalcyonDays]

This is Goffman's first time running the show and he's already screwing up.  Word gets around.

 

That's a good point, Amethyst, very good point. This could be Hollywood career suicide (then I guess he can go back into politics or whatever it was) but as with all unfair things in life, if he has someone who thinks he is still amazing, they can just claim it's the Ichabbie shippers that caused the show to fail, then no harm can befall him. That is what the writers and pro-Katrina people think - that only those who want Abbie and Ichabod together as a couple are upset. No, that's really not it, writers.... *rollseyes*

 

That's what I'm hoping for.  FOX has to be aware of the clusterfuck Goffman is creating, especially since the majority of the criticisms are all the same.  The bottom line is money and viewers and they're losing both with Goffman at the helm.

 

I am hoping for this too - it's too late for this season, but hopefully there will be a third one to rescue the show. My fear is that there won't be, so nothing can ever change/be fixed.

[catrox14]

OK, I'm here for some "therapy" so I'm going to rant about the mythology of the show for a bit. There have been some excellent posts regarding this upthread by marceline, HalcyonDays and BestestAuntEver and many others but I thought I'd post anyway. If they emphasized certain characters (Abbie, Jenny, Frank and Ichabod) eliminated others (Katrina) and used others in better ways (John Noble and Hawley), the show would be more enjoyable but still not great. There remains the slap-dash, half-baked, ever-changing mythology. 

 

The mythology should be the backbone of the show-- the scaffold that the plotting, characterization and action is built upon. The mythology of SH has all the "backbone" of a squid. Early on they seemed to be using the book of Revelation as their key text with Ichabod and Abbie as the "Witnesses" mentioned there. They mentioned the seven years of Tribulation and the need to keep the Four Horseman from rising. Pretty ambitious I think, but still a workable mythology. Last season they tied the good and evil witch covens to the mythology, the Masons and the Hessians and it still seemed to work.   This year it doesn't seem to be necessary to raise the four Horseman to start the Apocalypse. This year we've seen no covens of witches-good or bad- and no Masons. The Hessians had a brief cameo as Henry's henchmen but that's it. And now, the Big Bad of the season so far, Moloch, is dead and the show-runners plan on drawing on "other traditions" going forward. 

 

They appear to be scrapping the whole Season 1 mythology and plan on starting over. That might not be a bad idea given how things have gone so far but I have little hope that they'll build a mythology and a world that is compelling and where we know the stakes and what the Witnesses' duty is. They seem to have no interest in thinking things through to develop the mythology. They don't need to lay it all out in front of us right from the start, but it should all fit together and when they reveal something that makes previous episodes make sense, there needs to be more than a little diorama with a pentagram on it as the payoff.

 

Please,Mr CEO of FOX, fire the show-runner and the writers and hire some new ones. It can't be any worse than it has been….Please?

 

For me, I don't even care if the mythology is wackadoodle and nonsensical as long as it stays "consistent" within it's own universe and even that doesnt matter because the charm of SH was in the wackadoodle out there mythology + blending of different people from the past and present + the truly creepy Headless and zombieAndy + zaniness and humor + Ichabbie = just plain fun and some legitimate scares.

 

RIP THAT Sleepy Hollow :(

[RiddleyWalker]

……..

 

That's what I'm hoping for.  FOX has to be aware of the clusterfuck Goffman is creating, especially since the majority of the criticisms are all the same.  The bottom line is money and viewers and they're losing both with Goffman at the helm.

So, I'm pretty new to this fandom thing but a quick Google search revealed quite a few shows--and interestingly often genre shows---that "changed" showrunners. How has that worked out for other shows? How was it handled by the network? I would presume there would be no decision or at least no announcement made until after the full season is done? I see Supernatural and Walking Dead have both had multiple show runners.  Any thoughts about this?

 

ETA: Any instances where fan outrage and dissatisfaction (as opposed to just dropping ratings) contributed to a showrunner being fired?

Edited December 5, 2014 by RiddleyWalker

[catrox14]

I think Supernatural is a bit of an outlier.  Kripke left because he had told the story he wanted to tell for 5 seasons. Then the network renewed even though. Gamble had to follow up with Kripke's act. And Carver seems to be well accepted. I don't think there has been that much chaos. 

 

I personally have issues some of what Carver and Gamble have done but as I haven't heard much about their being dissension behind the scenes.  I think Gamble left because she wanted to and they brought in Carver.  But Bob Singer has been the Executive Producer from Day One to  now.. so that might be part of the "stability".  Also the president of CW loves Supernatural and from all that I've read they sort of leave SPN alone. I think there was some network meddling after s3 with lighting palettes and rules about the boys hair, and censorship to a degree with language and what not but in general they are left alone.

Edited December 5, 2014 by catrox14

[Carrie Ann]

I think there was a pretty noticeable change when Marti Noxon took over for Joss Whedon on BtVS, but you know, he was still involved so you can't put the blame for the later seasons solely on her shoulders. I think Season 2 is pretty early for so many of the show's creators to jump ship and leave it in the hands of a newbie.

[cynic]

Walking Dead lost two showrunners in two years. From the scuttlebutt I've seen, Darabont was fired after the first season due to butting heads with the network, mostly due to budget reasons. Mazzara was fired after the second season due to supposedly bad performance in managing the production. Walking Dead had always been popular and has, unlike most shows, only gotten more popular as time has gone on.

Edited December 5, 2014 by cynic

[fantique]

Season 1 hooked us on this world they created.  Season 2 was the time to step back, explore that world and build a foundation for the future.  Instead, they kept galloping through plot.  It's only midway through Season 2 and they've finished off Moloch.  Is there still an impending apocalypse?  Who's running it?  How many apocalypse CEOs are they going to run through?

That's a really good point. I keep feeling like they are doing what you're meant to do after season 3. That would be the point where they think they've "won" and realise there actually another layer. This course of action is fucking baffling to me. I mean there was a fucking apocalypse, why is there not a token scene of people freaking out THAT IT'S HAILING BLOOD!!!!!! 

I also have a problem of deviating from the book of revelation as the backbone because the premise of Abbie and Ichabod is dependent on them being Witnesses which is part of the book of revelation. They totally can explore other myths and legends of monsters and how others view the apocalypse without abandoning the Bible related stuff. I always get pissed when people are like "Oh, we don't want to alienate non-believing viewers". That's stupid, just because your story involves the Bible doesn't mean you're trying to convert people or it will be too much for those atheists or of different faiths. I'm not Christian but that doesn't preclude me from having knowledge about Christian things. Besides whether people admit it or not, the western world's fabric is steeped in Christian inspired traditions so I don't know why that would bother anyone.

Edited December 5, 2014 by fantique

[HalcyonDays]

Walking Dead lost two showrunners in two years. From the scuttlebutt I've seen, Darabont was fired after the first season due to butting heads with the network, mostly due to budget reasons. Mazzara was fired after the second season due to supposedly bad performance in managing the production. Walking Dead had always been popular and has, unlike most shows, only gotten more popular as time has gone on.

 

See, AMC I like. Granted, they have the Walking Dead which rakes in like 12 or more million viewers an episode, which is insane, but AMC is not one of the big networks. That is gold for them. It's not working?? - Fire them! Lovely. I wish FOX would do that to Goffman. There are a lot of other talented and creative people out there who could manage this show.

 

You know the overall irritation? AMC just dumped all of their unscripted shows, to focus on scripted only (obviously cause the WD is so successful). Can you imagine how AMAZING SH would be, on AMC? Dear god, that would be heaven. AMC, BUY the rights to Sleepy Hollow. Do it! Do it!

 

That's a really good point. I keep feeling like they are doing what you're meant to do after season 3. That would be the point where they think they've "won" and realise there actually another layer. This course of action is fucking baffling to me. I mean there was a fucking apocalypse, why is there not a token scene of people freaking out THAT IT'S HAILING BLOOD!!!!!! 

 

That was one thing that was very glaring to me this episode, and overall this season. It's the APOCALYPSE. The End of Days. You know, like Moses and the plagues and the end of the world. The budget of the show was drastically increased this year. So are you telling me you could not film some extras quivering as their house shakes, the impact of the blood hail on other citizens, some lightening hitting the main street and blackening out the main street strip and people panicking. I mean, they SAY Apocalypse, but it seems like it's just some dude they have to fight against, as opposed to - you know - the end of the world.

 

Kinda like "Katrina is a powerful witch" and the overall reality of that statement.

[chrisvee]

I don't do twitter either but your comment made me go check out Mark Goffman's twitter page. One of the first things I saw was he retweeted a tweet in support of Marti Noxon. Figures.

Wow. That tells me everything I need to know. Now I'm really afraid.

[RiddleyWalker]

For me, I don't even care if the mythology is wackadoodle and nonsensical as long as it stays "consistent" within it's own universe and even that doesnt matter because the charm of SH was in the wackadoodle out there mythology + blending of different people from the past and present + the truly creepy Headless and zombieAndy + zaniness and humor + Ichabbie = just plain fun and some legitimate scares.

 

RIP THAT Sleepy Hollow :(

 

I think without a consistent mythology, the show can be good and entertaining but is ultimately limited. Don't get me wrong, I'm one of those that will probably watch the show until the bitter end because of those couple of moments each show that are so much fun.

 

I do think that consistency in the mythology is of major importance, though.  The mythology can be a complete hodgepodge of different traditions and ideas (I'm thinking of Terry Pratchett's Discworld novels which are completely bonkers) but it has to be consistent "within its own universe." There was really no explanation on this show why Moloch rose again and the Apocalypse started with only two Horseman when they made it clear in Season 1 that he needed the Four Horsemen. I don't think starting over again with the mythology is terrible or show-ending and it might actually open things up a bit, but some reasonable consistency with the mythology can go a long way in making the show better and more engaging. If I knew Frank was truly dead, his fate would have a lot more emotional impact, for example.

[phoenics]

Riddley - I agree with you. I miss the deeper mythology of the first season... a lot.

This kinda reminds me a bit of what happened on Roswell. The first season was widely regarded as Season Onederful, Season Two was known as Season Spew and Season Three was Season Flee.

That's because the first season built up the characters really well and then started to dip into a deeper mythology, building up to something that we all hoped would be awesome. Then they went full on sci-fi (at the networks behest) in S2 and messed up what they'd already built and worse - they just threw "sic-fi stuff" at the show to see what would stick. It failed really badly - hanging storyline chads all over the place... the writers had been pushed into doing more sci-fi stuff and "sexing up" the show by the network to draw in male viewers and the result was that they alienated the base the show already had...

They marginalized the lead actress in favor of two busty blondes (one of them I refuse to watch in anything EVER and after she got a little fame after the show, she burned a ton of bridges and now other fans have learned the lesson I learned with her in Roswell - karma works!) - they pushed the lead male at the expense of the lead actress and they made the "human characters" props for the "alien" characters (I guess the network and writers thought they were the draw?)

I see some of the same mistakes here - especially the part where they forget that the "special" or "out of place" character is humanized ONLY through the eyes of the human foil on the show for them. Meaning, Max Evans on Roswell was special and seemed wonderful because we saw him through the eyes of Liz Parker... Ichabod Crane was seen as quirky and weird, but sweet and awesome because we saw how he was with Abbie.

When they had Max act a fool on Roswell, tons of fans revolted - angry that they'd worked so hard to save the show from cancellation the year before only to have the writers spit on them with the story lines.

Same thing is going on here - except Sleepy Hollow wasn't in danger of cancellation - they decided to "fix" something that didn't need to be fixed and dropped things from the story that fans loved (Ichabbie's dynamic, the mythology they were building, the "scariness", the "Ichabod is special because we see him through Abbie's eyes", the diversity, etc)...

Roswell was cancelled for good after 3 seasons.

Sleepy Hollow probably won't even have 3 full seasons at the rate it's going.

[cynic]

....

They marginalized the lead actress in favor of two busty blondes (one of them I refuse to watch in anything EVER and after she got a little fame after the show, she burned a ton of bridges and now other fans have learned the lesson I learned with her in Roswell - karma works!)....

Oh gosh yes. I remember that debacle. IIRC, rumor at the time was that Heigl complained about the amount, quality, and types of storylines that her character was given resulting in a huge increase in screen time and an incredibly boring love interest/husband for barely out of high school Isabel. Apparently, she wanted more "mature" issues to play. It was awesome. I love watching people sort out their marital issues in my sci-fi/fantasy shows. /sarcasm I refused to watch Gray's, because her face still annoyed me by then (and also now).

[fantique]

This should have been first, but the main problem to me in the interview is that it appears they are still unclear about their mythology or code book will be. This is not Grimm, which can pull from various religions and folklore/fairytales from around the world

I really like the point that this is not Grimm and nor should it be. The whole point of using them being Witnesses is that your bible is well... the Bible. Also, Christianity is spread out throughout the world. There are christians on every continent and in every country, they could just see if those places have merged the Bible stuff with their preexisting local lore. That would be interesting and show direction of purpose wrt mythology and show what happens when converted people merge the new religion with their culture.

[savinggrace]

The writers have created a huge problem by bringing Ichabod's whole crew into modern times. There is no way to resolve the whole Ichatrina/Henry/Abraham quadrangle other than killing them. Not killing them means they have to concoct stories for all of them living in modern times. Henry is a lawyer but Is Katrina going to get a job at Topshop and rent an apartment with some roomies? One man out of time was more than entertaining enough with Ichabod. Having  3 or 4 other people in the same predicament is just ridiculous.

 

I do wonder if they were afraid to get rid of Katrina because they  thought without her White women would tune out but now they have inadvertently scared away everyone. I'd love to know the racial demographic break down of the audience for both seasons.

[HalcyonDays]

I do wonder if they were afraid to get rid of Katrina because they  thought without her White women would tune out but now they have inadvertently scared away everyone. I'd love to know the racial demographic break down of the audience for both seasons.

 

I totally understand what you are saying, savinggrace, and I totally see now how Jenny, Frank and Abbie are being pushed aside, but this tells me the idiot and closeminded mentality of Hollywood and this showrunner and the writers. I happen to be that white woman who wants to tune out, NOT because there are too many people of colour on SH, but because I want to see Abbie Mills and Ichabod Crane alot on my screen. I want to see more Jenny, and by extension Jenny and Crane interactions. I want to see Frank on my screen, and Frank and Jenny interactions. I cannot stand Katrina, cannot stand the stupid story lines and cringe when she is on my screen. I have no use for John Noble now either, don't care about his whiny character, yet I am the female demographic they think they are attempting to appeal to. Trust me, they are NOT. Not by a long shot.

 

As for the other demographic they want - the white male - the same applies in this house. My hubby used to watch the show with me and loved it. Three weeks ago, he gave it up. I asked him why. He said he is sick and tired of Katrina, can't stand her, hates how the show lost it's mystery and misses the historical flashbacks. I perfectly agree. So now they just lost that coveted demographic. The thing/person they thought would bring in that demo, lost that demo. And I doubt we are a rarity in terms of being the coveted demo and saying the show is lousy now.

 

To be honest, it's a slap in the face for the viewers. What, you are telling me I wouldn't be interested in a show with compelling characters who I care about, who have amazing chemistry, displayed by amazing actors/actresses? Are you telling me that I can't understand a character or care about a character because of skin colour. That is utterly insulting.

 

Ichabod Crane was/is my favourite character on the show - he edges out Abbie slightly, only because of my lust for Tom Mison. But I wanted to see more Abbie Mills. I wanted to see more Ichabbie (platonic or otherwise - just interact please!) and wanted to see more Jenny and Frank.

 

So FOX - here is a reality check for you. That demographic that you so desire - you chased it away because of poor storylines, forcing a terrible character (well two) down my throat, and made the HUGE mistake of thinking that it's the POC that caused the problem. Fix your thinking and fix your show, because if you don't, that demographic will leave - it is already jumping ship as we speak - and your advertisers will start to jump ship and you will lose money and clout. But as we all know, this will never happen because of poor thinking and closemindedness. The same people who thought a demon pregnancy was an awesome idea think that pushing Abbie and Jenny to the sidelines is the answer. Fire them all.

[savinggrace]

To be honest, it's a slap in the face for the viewers. What, you are telling me I wouldn't be interested in a show with compelling characters who I care about, who have amazing chemistry, displayed by amazing actors/actresses? Are you telling me that I can't understand a character or care about a character because of skin colour. That is utterly insulting.

 

 

I hate to think about the implications of that mindset among the writers. To me it comes across like they believe if the show is not attracting White viewers--or attracting too many POC-- then there is something wrong and it needs to be fixed regardless of how well the ratings are.

 

ABC Family's Twisted is the most blatant example I'd ever seen of sabotage based on racial preferences of a showrunner. SH seems to be following a similar trajectory of Twisted which got cancelled after one season following a strong start. The show started out promoting three leads Danny who is Indian, Jo a White female and a Black female - Lacey.  The show did a good job balancing the leads during the 1st half of the season. A new showrunner was brought in for the second half of season and someone on TWOpity forums actually predicted  based on his track record that the POC would be marginalized. Sure enough Danny and Lacey  went from being leads to supporting characters to the White character Jo whose family and feeling were explored in detail. Lacey was practically written off the show. Her friends disappeared from screen and her family became non-existent. All the show's social media and hashtags promoted #PoorJo.  Danny who was smitten with Lacey the first season, suddenly reversed and declared his love for Jo. Fans revolted, the raings plummeted and of course cancellation followed.

 

A good showrunner should be able to ignore their own bias when it conflicts with good storytelling.

[HalcyonDays]

I hate to think about the implications of that mindset among the writers. To me it comes across like they believe if the show is not attracting White viewers--or attracting too many POC-- then there is something wrong and it needs to be fixed regardless of how well the ratings are.

 

ABC Family's Twisted is the most blatant example I'd ever seen of sabotage based on racial preferences of a showrunner. SH seems to be following a similar trajectory of Twisted which got cancelled after one season following a strong start. The show started out promoting three leads Danny who is Indian, Jo a White female and a Black female - Lacey.  The show did a good job balancing the leads during the 1st half of the season. A new showrunner was brought in for the second half of season and someone on TWOpity forums actually predicted  based on his track record that the POC would be marginalized. Sure enough Danny and Lacey  went from being leads to supporting characters to the White character Jo whose family and feeling were explored in detail. Lacey was practically written off the show. Her friends disappeared from screen and her family became non-existent. All the show's social media and hashtags promoted #PoorJo.  Danny who was smitten with Lacey the first season, suddenly reversed and declared his love for Jo. Fans revolted, the raings plummeted and of course cancellation followed.

 

A good showrunner should be able to ignore their own bias when it conflicts with good storytelling.

 

I do have a question about that - Advertisers want good numbers for the show, because they want as much exposure as possible, but do they do demographic analysis. I mean, 15 million people in total (DVR+7 and live viewing and Online viewing, etc) watched SH every week last year, but how do they know if it's white or black or Latino or whatever watching? Because if they don't know, then this push for more white makes no sense, especially since they are now LOSING viewers. There must be other analysis they do. But the last time I checked, POC shopped and bought things too, but hey, I could be wrong...*sarcasm* That's what advertisers want - people buying their product and they couldn't care LESS who spends the money, as long as they do.

 

I watched Twisted until the break (loved Avan and Lacey) and didn't bother to pick it back up and glad I didn't. And I remember those TwoP conversations! That person/those people so called it because the replacement showrunner had a history. I read the forum after the break and was so glad I didn't pick it back up. That #PoorJo hashtag was ridiculous and reading that Danny then decided that Jo was the one. Please....

 

But yeah, I see it now - they are doing the same thing to the show that they did to Twisted. Fuckers.

[starchild215]

What has amazed me is the way women of all ages and yes races, embraced Ichabod and Abbie. Most of the fanfiction addresses the racial, social, and old vs new issues the couple would face in a way that continues to amaze. Most of them also dispose of Katrina.

 

Thank you @halcyondays for your post. It reflects what I've seen among the SH fandom.

[catrox14]

I've watched fan reaction videos to the Sleepy Hollow season 1 finale and if that SSS is an indication of the overall mix of the audience it was a wide mix of younger, older, PoC. white.  Ran the gamut.  I loved that it did. And now...welp.....:(

[savinggrace]

I do have a question about that - Advertisers want good numbers for the show, because they want as much exposure as possible, but do they do demographic analysis. I mean, 15 million people in total (DVR+7 and live viewing and Online viewing, etc) watched SH every week last year, but how do they know if it's white or black or Latino or whatever watching? Because if they don't know, then this push for more white makes no sense, especially since they are now LOSING viewers. There must be other analysis they do. But the last time I checked, POC shopped and bought things too, but hey, I could be wrong...*sarcasm* That's what advertisers want - people buying their product and they couldn't care LESS who spends the money, as long as they do.

 

I watched Twisted until the break (loved Avan and Lacey) and didn't bother to pick it back up and glad I didn't. And I remember those TwoP conversations! That person/those people so called it because the replacement showrunner had a history. I read the forum after the break and was so glad I didn't pick it back up. That #PoorJo hashtag was ridiculous and reading that Danny then decided that Jo was the one. Please....

 

But yeah, I see it now - they are doing the same thing to the show that they did to Twisted. Fuckers.

 

I know that Nielsen ratings have racial stats on the registered households from which they get viewing stats. I'm not sure how they measure demographics from DVR viewing.  I recall reading that White middle and upper-class viewers are the most coveted demographic since they allow a show to command more advertising dollars. There are shows on BET (Black entertainment Television) and Univision/Telemundo that get higher ratings than network shows but they don't "count" apparently and can't charge the same in advertising rates as the networks because their audiences are predominately non-White. It's really ridiculous because US dollars are all the same color regardless of who's spending them.

[DJG1122]

I totally understand what you are saying, savinggrace, and I totally see now how Jenny, Frank and Abbie are being pushed aside, but this tells me the idiot and closeminded mentality of Hollywood and this showrunner and the writers. I happen to be that white woman who wants to tune out, NOT because there are too many people of colour on SH, but because I want to see Abbie Mills and Ichabod Crane alot on my screen. I want to see more Jenny, and by extension Jenny and Crane interactions. I want to see Frank on my screen, and Frank and Jenny interactions. I cannot stand Katrina, cannot stand the stupid story lines and cringe when she is on my screen. I have no use for John Noble now either, don't care about his whiny character, yet I am the female demographic they think they are attempting to appeal to. Trust me, they are NOT. Not by a long shot.

 

 

Thanks HalcyonDays-I couldn't have said this any better. I watched the pilot and thought to myself that the casting was perfect for this wacky, fun show.

Edited December 7, 2014 by HalcyonDays