The Sleepy Hollow Therapy Thread - What went wrong with Sleepy Hollow?

[catrox14]

I think I just horked.  Thanks for that.

[BrokenRemote]

I don't blame Katia. IMO, she's a bad actress but hardly the only one on TV right now.

I do blame Goffman but not so much for being racist (because I don't whether or not he is) but for not wanting to write the show he was hired to write. One of my repeated complaints about the crash is that this is a sci-fi/fantasy show written by people who don't like or respect the genre. What made this show groundbreaking - besides the diversity - was the way it embraced and mixed history and mythology and religion into this completely beautiful, original batshit craziness. The headless horseman with a machine gun? Ben Franklinstein's monster? Freemasons, Hessians, Jenny as Indiana Jones for Corbin to get artifacts, etc... That's what Sleepy Hollow was about. You could tell that a LOT of energy and thought went into world-building for the first season and Goffman decided in season 2 that he simply couldn't be bothered with it even though that kind of detail is what draws people in.

This season you could feel the laziness. It was replaced by a rote, paint-by-numbers approach. Every show was just "blah, blah...mention a historic figure...blah blah get magic gadget from Hawley (notice how Hawley became keeper of the artifacts instead of Jenny)...blah blah...mix in a little talk of magic in order to prop Katrina...blather rinse repeat." The diversity issues with S2 are a direct result of the show being written by someone lacking the kind of imagination that made SH a breakout hit. Goffman can't imagine a world where Abbie or Jenny or Irving would be considered more important than Katrina or Hawley and that's the show he wrote.

Exactly. Especially the bolded part. I don't get how people can be mad Abbie's been sidelined and a white woman is doing what she used to do, but think the new, dumbed-down Jenny who was sidelined so a white man could do what she used to do is entertaining, great comic relief, and the white man is great and not at all part of the problem. I know barely anyone (on these boards) shares this opinion with me, but I loved Season 1 Jenny as much as Abbie, and it's so upsetting to me that a man can step in and take over for her, relegating her to the dumb comic relief, and that it's a white man makes it ten times worse. I am not a crackpot!

[phoenics]

Well, that does make me mad... and I'll be apoplectic with rage if they kill Jenny off. I'm worried they might.

[BrokenRemote]

Oh, I can't even let my brain go there because I know that they're going to screw it up and kill someone we don't hate.

[DeLurker]

Well, that does make me mad... and I'll be apoplectic with rage if they kill Jenny off. I'm worried they might.

Damn it! You just made Sleepy Hollow scary again!

I'll be in the corner clutching my pearls.

[phoenics]

Damn it! You just made Sleepy Hollow scary again!

I'll be in the corner clutching my pearls.

Perhaps we need to hold a candlelight vigil for Jenny? The show won't be right without her - if they kill her and keep Katrina that will just be so awful. Even if they kill both - I just really don't want Jenny to die.

[BrokenRemote]

That might be the thing that was the end of the line for me, to be honest.

The only thing that keeps me not as scared is all the press almost bragging how someone dies, for real this time. I can't see Orlando Jones smiling in an interview plugging that if it was Jenny. And I have seen Orlando Jones smiling and talking about how someone dies for real this time. I would like to think TPTB aren't that tone deaf, but...

Edited January 27, 2015 by BrokenRemote

[savinggrace]

Exactly. Especially the bolded part. I don't get how people can be mad Abbie's been sidelined and a white woman is doing what she used to do, but think the new, dumbed-down Jenny who was sidelined so a white man could do what she used to do is entertaining, great comic relief, and the white man is great and not at all part of the problem. I know barely anyone (on these boards) shares this opinion with me, but I loved Season 1 Jenny as much as Abbie, and it's so upsetting to me that a man can step in and take over for her, relegating her to the dumb comic relief, and that it's a white man makes it ten times worse. I am not a crackpot!

I've never been that big on Jenny. I don't think either Witness should have had living family members. Their relationships with their spouses and siblings/children are a distraction from the task they were chosen to do. Plus, I've said this before but I think Lyndie was brought in to be the "sexy" sister that they didn't think Nicole Beharie was capable of being.

Hawley's dynamic with the team is so different from Jenny's -- especially with regard to Crane-- that I don't mind the overlapping resumes.

[BrokenRemote]

I guess that's why it bothers me more. I don't think their resumes overlap. I think Jenny's was cut and pasted over to Hawley. She's the dumb girl now who calls it the "Egg of Haggis".

And last season she was shown in sweats with barely any makeup on and her hair in a ponytail. I don't see how she was supposed to bring the sexy because Nicole supposedly can't while Abbie is wearing great makeup, tight clothes and awesome hair. I don't see Jenny as half as sexy as Abbie or even trying to be in Season 1.

Of course this season Jenny's crammed in mini skirts with her hair all sexed up and lots of makeup so if this were her first season I might think that's why she was brought on.

[RiddleyWalker]

I guess that's why it bothers me more. I don't think their resumes overlap. I think Jenny's was cut and pasted over to Hawley. She's the dumb girl now who calls it the "Egg of Haggis".

And last season she was shown in sweats with barely any makeup on and her hair in a ponytail. I don't see how she was supposed to bring the sexy because Nicole supposedly can't while Abbie is wearing great makeup, tight clothes and awesome hair. I don't see Jenny as half as sexy as Abbie or even trying to be in Season 1.

Of course this season Jenny's crammed in mini skirts with her hair all sexed up and lots of makeup so if this were her first season I might think that's why she was brought on.

I think Jenny's least sexy moments were when the show was pushing the "sexiness" the most. The "kiss" with Hawley--not sexy, too obvious...Jenny at the bar? Not sexy, seemed a little forced and (dare I say-- it needy?). Jenny digging for bullets in a a decomposing Zombie? SEXY! Yep, make of it what you will, that was my favorite Jenny moment this year. :)

 

Last year she was all tough, bitter, in-and-out of Tarrytown psych, recently poccessed by a demon, special weapons training, Jenny. 

This year she may have the same past but she seems like an approachable human at times. That being said, I don't like her playing "dumb" as in the "Egg of Haggis" bit. I really wish they would emphasize that she has some expertise in the paranormal area but allow those moments of approachability we've seen at times. I've really grown to like Jenny, as a character, and hope they can let her grow.

[MissAlmond]

OK, so I'll be the first. After reading more BTS tidmits and the last episode, I'm cautiously ready to dip my toes back in the SH pool.  Yes,  I've read the complaints about Jenny but I always said I didn't want SH to be the Abbie/Jenny show anymore than Crane/Katrina one.  I personally was fine when Jenny was recurring.  I don't wish her death though.

 

I also complaints about SH brushing over Ichabod's treatment of Abbie, but (to me) that's to be expected when FOX has laid down the law to set things right again.  I'm not in the business, but I get that reshooting epsiodes can be difficult and expensive.  It's not like the actors suddenly sprout words and they're inserted instead of scenes already shot.  Reshooting means rewrites, finding available crew to film, plus post-production to make sure these new scenes match older ones they want to keep.  That sounds like money a producer spends on a big budget movie, not a network TV show.  SH only had so many new episodes to film where they could do an entire take to correct things. It's not surprising they're using shorthand to rush getting it done.

 

Also, I'm starting to believe the change in Season 2 was more than Goffman alone.  The tweets from the K/O production guy gives me the impression that the new direction came from the top or at least they were ok with it  Everything seems to point to FOX being the one who became alarmed and stepped in to stop the bleeding.  If that one spoiler is right, FOX has also decided, if SH does go forward to Season 3, that they have and will use veto power over future scripts.   This new regime sounds extremely serious in wanting to be #1.  Therefore, at the moment, I'm willing to let them have space to correct things.   In other words, I'm giving SH a second but last chance.  We'lll see if they mess it up. 

[MissAlmond]

My guess is SH keeps Katrina, Irving and Badass Headless.  I know many wish Katrina dead, but her character has a link to Washington Irving's short story as does Irving (Irving's name homage) and of course, Headless himself.  Even Katrina turnng shady has roots to the short story, since it was clear Katrina was only leading Ichabod on.  Shirtless Headless needs to resume being Badass Headless.  Again, it was as a badass that Headless (or his legend) scared the town of Sleepy Hollow in the short story.  If the show once again plays riffs off of American history, I see these three remaining as a nod to the author and short story itself. 

 

That leaves Henry and Jenny.  Jenny doesn't have to die, she can once again be dropped to recurring (if Raven Metzner stays on the writing staff, I'm sure he'll make as plea for this).  Henry?  Henry can go and the sooner the better.  I always found it funny that people talked about how much romantic pairings killed shows when bringing in children is usually the worst of the worst of the worst in murdering one.  Kill Henry and kill him now, his death severs the biggest link SH has with Ichabod and Katrina.  Turn him into another character if they love John Noble so much, but get rid of Henry asap.

Edited January 27, 2015 by MissAlmond

[marceline]

OK, so I'll be the first. After reading more BTS tidmits and the last episode, I'm cautiously ready to dip my toes back in the SH pool. 

 

I'm not ready to come back home to Sleepy Hollow just yet. The only thing that will do that is hearing about a change in management. I don't believe that the people who caused this mess are truly capable of fixing it so I'll just hope for the best but continue watching The Fosters on Monday night. I've just been burned too many times by tone deaf management. 

[benteen]

Having Katrina around makes it easier for Crane not to be an outsider.  Crane and Abbie should be the main relationship and I wish the show wouldn't kill off all these interesting side relationships Crane has five minutes after they are introduced.  Miss Caroline and the reenactment group would have been a lot of fun to see.  Crane and the art curator would have been something to see too.  It would have also shown us more of the people of Sleepy Hollow, which has been badly neglected almost from day one.  Sleepy Hollow seems like the smallest town imaginable onscreen because the writers won't develop the rest of the town and more importantly, Ichabod's relationship with it.

 

The cases are becoming random now and it's like the X-Files though not as interesting.

Edited January 27, 2015 by benteen

[Neurochick]

Here's how Sleepy Hollow gets better. 

 

Kill off Katrina.  #AbbieMillsDeservesBetter.

 

The End.

Edited January 27, 2015 by Neurochick

[phoenics]

My guess is SH keeps Katrina, Irving and Badass Headless.  I know many wish Katrina dead, but her character has a link to Washington Irving's short story as does Irving (Irving's name homage) and of course, Headless himself.  Even Katrina turnng shady has roots to the short story, since it was clear Katrina was only leading Ichabod on.  Shirtless Headless needs to resume being Badass Headless.  Again, it was as a badass that Headless (or his legend) scared the town of Sleepy Hollow in the short story.  If the show once again plays riffs off of American history, I see these three remaining as a nod to the author and short story itself.

While I don't think we'd be lucky enough to have Katrina off the show - I don't think her connection to the original SH tale has any bearing here at all. If that was the litmus test, Abbie wouldn't even exist on the show. Neither would the Apocalypse. Plus - THAT tale isn't Sleepy Hollow. I think Katrina's connection to Sleepy Hollow the tv show is basically her marriage to Ichabod AND her being the one to magically put him to sleep so he could arise as a witness.

She has no other legit connection on the show.

The "connections" the show contrived in order to make her fit DESTROYED the show.

So - no - not even having her as evil makes any sense to me. Evil as what? What are her motives? See where I'm going with this? I just don't see them being able to craft a legit reason to explain her increased presence on the show.

And given how the writers were looking for ways to kill her off in the Season 1 finale - AND she was originally supposed to die in the pilot - so it's not like the creators of Sleepy Hollow (or just Iscove, since he wrote it) thought she was integral to the plot beyond the pilot.

As I've said more than once - KW didn't even chem test with TM because they never planned at the time of her casting for her to be a character beyond the pilot.

I don't know who made that decision to extend her beyond the pilot (I suspect it's Goffman), but whoever it was needs to be fired.

 

That leaves Henry and Jenny.  Jenny doesn't have to die, she can once again be dropped to recurring (if Raven Metzner stays on the writing staff, I'm sure he'll make as plea for this).  Henry?  Henry can go and the sooner the better.  I always found it funny that people talked about how much romantic pairings killed shows when bringing in children is usually the worst of the worst of the worst in murdering one.  Kill Henry and kill him now, his death severs the biggest link SH has with Ichabod and Katrina.  Turn him into another character if they love John Noble so much, but get rid of Henry asap.

I would love it if Katrina continued in her foolish plans to save her son and in the end, she manages to separate him from the horseman, he sacrifices himself to save her from the horseman and then Katrina dies in a blaze of whatever trying to kill the horseman and failing.

The end. of Katrina.

:)

Abraham blames Ichabod for Katrina's death and becomes full tilt Headless again - because the Katrina-necklace is destroyed and he and Ichabod remain locked in battle forever, along with the Horseman of War and all of the other ones... Moloch's big bad (whoever he reports to) comes in, determined to have Abbie's soul...

The gang reunites to fight them and we find out WHY Abbie's soul is so critical. Ichabod is marooned in this time and place with all connections to his past removed from him or made mortal enemies... make him finally accept his Witness-hood.

Bring it, SH.

Edited January 28, 2015 by phoenics

[kminfinity]

Okay, after watching "Kali Yuga" it's DAMN clear the show pops and crackles when it isn't being dragged down with Katrina.  She can exit stage left any moment now.

[MissAlmond]

 

I don't think her connection to the original SH tale has any bearing here at all. If that was the litmus test, Abbie wouldn't even exist on the show. Neither would the Apocalypse. Plus - THAT tale isn't Sleepy Hollow.

 

 No, the show isn't the short story but they have done little nods and twists all along. . Ichabod's a professor, Abraham/Brom, Irving's last name.  I still think they'll keep Katrina for the same reason and turn her evil as further twist from the Katrina of the short story .  And an Evil Katrina makes the lack of a chemistry test a moot point since there's no longer a need to play off Ichabod romantically. But time will tell. 

[DeLurker]

 No, the show isn't the short story but they have done little nods and twists all along. . Ichabod's a professor, Abraham/Brom, Irving's last name.  I still think they'll keep Katrina for the same reason and turn her evil as further twist from the Katrina of the short story .  And an Evil Katrina makes the lack of a chemistry test a moot point since there's no longer a need to play off Ichabod romantically. But time will tell. 

If they said she bewitched him I would expect seeing some ardour and infatuation from Ich - not this flatness that I've seen.

 

And they've had two season, the second heavily focused on Katrina.  I'm not sure time is on their side anymore.

[MissAlmond]

 

I'm not sure time is on their side anymore.

 

        Sorry.  I meant time will tell if TPTB turn Katrina evil. 

[jhlipton]

I think Jenny's least sexy moments were when the show was pushing the "sexiness" the most.

I don't think these guys do "sexy" well at all. Katrina is supposed to be "sexy" and blech. Meanwhile Nicole and Jenny rock even when dressed in drab colors.

[phoenics]

Regarding Tom's latest interview on tvguide.com - romantic Ichabbie still can't fix this show... If the writers don't fix the mythos, world building, character development, stereotypical tropes and pacing on the show, it will still be bad.

Fans weren't upset due to shipping - well, most weren't, lol. Fans were upset that the writing was terrible.

[DJG1122]

Regarding Tom's latest interview on tvguide.com - romantic Ichabbie still can't fix this show... If the writers don't fix the mythos, world building, character development, stereotypical tropes and pacing on the show, it will still be bad.

Fans weren't upset due to shipping - well, most weren't, lol. Fans were upset that the writing was terrible.

I'm reading this as FOX is changing everything (creative changes) and this was the quickest way to get EVERYONE's attention.

[Yolapukka]

 

Regarding Tom's latest interview on tvguide.com - romantic Ichabbie still can't fix this show... If the writers don't fix the mythos, world building, character development, stereotypical tropes and pacing on the show, it will still be bad.

 

True enough. However acknowledging Ichabbie and openly inferring the relative unimportance of Ichatrina also likely means that the CFD is unimportant as they go forward. The focus on CFD was a large part of what was wrong with show and was (IMO) the main reason so much of the show's original strengths had been abandoned. It wasn't just the problem that they were not actively engaged in world building and Sleepy Hollow had become a fairly static place, More than that, they had actively dismantled both their existing universe and larger story arcs to bring Katrina into the modern world and elevate her to a position of precedence. The need to accommodate her presence to the detriment of everything else becomes moot if they step away from their concentration on the epic love that crossed time, space, inadequate wig-making and elderly-delinquent sons.

Edited January 31, 2015 by yuggapukka

[savinggrace]

Making Katrina evil won't solve the problem-- at least with Goffman still at the helm. Thanks to Goffman's obsession,  if Katrina becomes the big bad she'll still be the central focus of all the plotlines. Instead of Ichabbie fighting Henry or Moloch we'll be stuck watching them battle Katrina. No more fight against the Apocalypse. Making Katrina evil works out perfectly for Goffman. He gets to keep his pet and continue to write the story around her character.

 

Katrina, Abraham and Henry all need to die so the Witnesses can move on to actual Witness business instead of dealing with Crane's ratchet family drama at every turn.

[Blackhoney]

[savinggrace]

If they're abandoning the Apocalypse and Revelation can we at least get some villains that are more relevant to the Mills's background or to modern times in general?  I would love to see Ichabod tackle a Craigslist Murderer or a Jeffrey Dahmer. Other than the Mama and the Wendigo episode every creature of the week or villain has been rooted in Ichatrina's past --or the past in general. So far we've got Headless, Henry, the Piper, The Weeping Chick, Dude in the Painting, the Sucubus was working for Henry. Even in  the Root of All Evil-- the stupid coin had a background with Crane and Benedict Arnold.  Now this upcoming episode has the Spellcaster from Katrina's background. I was relieved to see Hawley's creepy baggage  in the last episode if only to get relief from the Crane's storyline.

 

Has a leading character ever been as screwed over as Abby Mills?

[phoenics]

If they're abandoning the Apocalypse and Revelation can we at least get some villains that are more relevant to the Mills's background or to modern times in general?  I would love to see Ichabod tackle a Craigslist Murderer or a Jeffrey Dahmer. Other than the Mama and the Wendigo episode every creature of the week or villain has been rooted in Ichatrina's past --or the past in general. So far we've got Headless, Henry, the Piper, The Weeping Chick, Dude in the Painting, the Sucubus was working for Henry. Even in  the Root of All Evil-- the stupid coin had a background with Crane and Benedict Arnold.  Now this upcoming episode has the Spellcaster from Katrina's background. I was relieved to see Hawley's creepy baggage  in the last episode if only to get relief from the Crane's storyline.

 

Has a leading character ever been as screwed over as Abby Mills?

I think Katie Cassidy has been... I know many don't like her - but I've never seen a character get such hatred... and have her leading lady status completely taken away in every way except the credits. I mean - there are episodes she's not even in - and most times, it's contractual that some time is given to the lead (even if it's 10 minutes). I do remember Shiri Appleby got sidelined in S2 and S3 of Roswell - but not to the extent KC has been. KC looks more like a supporting actress now with EBR as the lead...

Not saying whether she "deserved it" or not - and don't really want to go into it - but she is a leading actress who basically got usurped by another actress. Perhaps it was needed, but that's besides the point. I still feel as badly for KC as I would feel if NB got usurped... especially by an actress playing a character that is universally hated. At least KC still gets to be BC though and EBR is a good actress (even if I think Felicity is a Mary Sue).

[savinggrace]

Not saying whether she "deserved it" or not - and don't really want to go into it - but she is a leading actress who basically got usurped by another actress. Perhaps it was needed, but that's besides the point. I still feel as badly for KC as I would feel if NB got usurped... especially by an actress playing a character that is universally hated. At least KC still gets to be BC though and EBR is a good actress (even if I think Felicity is a Mary Sue).

 

I don't know anything about that show but is the character that usurped KC's character well-liked in the fandom? It would make sense that the showrunner recognized a character is more popular and moved that character to the forefront. With SH it's like the Twilight Zone. Abbie is clearly the more popular character so why are they giving us more Katrina?

[phoenics]

I don't know anything about that show but is the character that usurped KC's character well-liked in the fandom? It would make sense that the showrunner recognized a character is more popular and moved that character to the forefront. With SH it's like the Twilight Zone. Abbie is clearly the more popular character so why are they giving us more Katrina?

The other character is more well liked - though I do think KC gets a lot of unfair criticism - she gets all the blame for how poorly her story with Oliver was written - while Oliver doesn't get the hatred. I feel like a lot of the hatred has sexist roots.

BUT - I do think a lot of the fan love of EBR is real - it's too bad she wasn't cast as Laurel - I wonder if she might have done better with the part or if the poor writing would have tanked her too.

At the same time I absolutely HATE the precedent it sets... a lot of the hate at KC did come from shipping (I witnessed a lot of it) and with The Flash, I sometimes worry if that will derail Candice Patton - Arrow has given a lot of people the impression that if they anti-ship and hate on a character/actress enough, they can "change" things "like they did on Arrow". It's just a bad precedent to set - which is why I'm glad KC at least still gets to be Black Canary. But the "success" that some fans feel they got on Arrow is also the reason why I was really worried about Nicole Beharie on SH. When you throw the automatic "hate" that black actresses get at a minimum, it can skew things once you add in folks who just decide they like another actress better and then "campaign" to get rid of the leading actress.

It definitely worried me about SH and it still worries me on The Flash.

Edited February 1, 2015 by phoenics

[savinggrace]

The other character is more well liked - though I do think KC gets a lot of unfair criticism - she gets all the blame for how poorly her story with Oliver was written - while Oliver doesn't get the hatred. I feel like a lot of the hatred has sexist roots.BUT - I do think a lot of the fan love of EBR is real - it's too bad she wasn't cast as Laurel - I wonder if she might have done better with the part or if the poor writing would have tanked her too.At the same time I absolutely HATE the precedent it sets... a lot of the hate at KC did come from shipping (I witnessed a lot of it) and with The Flash, I sometimes worry if that will derail Candice Patton - Arrow has given a lot of people the impression that if they anti-ship and hate on a character/actress enough, they can "change" things "like they did on Arrow". It's just a bad precedent to set - which is why I'm glad KC at least still gets to be Black Canary. But the "success" that some fans feel they got on Arrow is also the reason why I was really worried about Nicole Beharie on SH. When you throw the automatic "hate" that black actresses get at a minimum, it can skew things once you add in folks who just decide they like another actress better and then "campaign" to get rid of the leading actress.It definitely worried me about SH and it still worries me on The Flash.

I think the difference is that Katrina stans are a vocal minority while most critics and the majority of SH fandom are anti-Katrina which makes the showrunner's decision to elevate her character perplexing. If the majority of critics and fanbase say a character isn't working I do think that criticism should be taken into account. Had Arrow's showrunner not listened to their critics they'd be in the same boat as SH and facing cancellation. Unfortunately for SH fans the show is saddled with an arrogant showrunner who disregards all criticism and has put the future of a potentially great show in doubt.

[phoenics]

You could be right about Arrow - and you are definitely right about SH and Goffman's refusal to listen...

[catrox14]

AS a female Arrow fan, I do'nt think the issues with Laurel are based in sexism at all. IMO she's just a bad character, she was badly wrtten, badly acted at times from the get go.  They messed up her arc from the beginning  and now when trying to "course correct" they are forcing her SL at the expense of other characters much like what is happening with Katrina. Just MO.

Edited February 2, 2015 by catrox14

[TwistedandBored]

I think comparing Nicole Beharie to Katie Cassidy is not the same. Nicole's Abbie is liked by the audience whereas KC's Laurel is hates almost as much as Katrina is in the SH fandom and none of that hate had anything to do with shipping. I and other people hated her on season 1 way before there was any Olicity on the horizon. Arrow did the right thing in taking advantage of what worked whereas SH did everything but what worked. It is actually more accurate to compare KC and KW. Both limited actresses who are hated by the fans and yet shoved down viewers throat cause they are the writers pet. 

 

Anyways, let's move on cause KC vs EBR is not a conversation we want to have. 

 

I am waiting the see how this episode does. And, I hope we see this big changes everyone is talking about cause I have a feeling what they see as change would be more of the same to us. 

[OnceSane]

This is not the Arrow forum. Move on.

[kieyra]

Yeah. Laurel = Katrina, Laurel does not equal Abbie. They just screwed up the Laurel arc badly, I guess. Unlike Katrina, Laurel had a rightful place in the story--although I would question whether the "female love interest of the superhero who is also clueless" archetype is even workable in 2015, hence the Iris character floundering on Flash--it's just that when her time arrived she was thoroughly unlikeable.

I should point out that in neither situation do I blame the actress. I have nothing against KC. They just wrote Laurel as shrill and selfish, then they killed off a better-liked character in service to her story. Even now the writing for her has me scratching my head, but I won't risk further spoilers. (Folks with netflix, if you haven't checked it out--go watch the first two seasons.)

EDIT: mods, I was typing while the post above mine was being posted. Sorry!

Edited February 2, 2015 by kieyra

[savinggrace]

If episode 14 was the "fixer" episode the only thing they did was get rid Hawley who was the only recurring character tied to Abbie/Jenny's story aside from the rarely seen and underdeveloped Chief Reyes. The show's real problems --Crane's family and friends-- remain unscathed. I had said all along that Hawley wasn't taking Jenny's screen time --they could easily co-exist. CFD was the real culprit. Now I see in Spellcaster Hawley's gone but Jenny is still M.I,A. I think the writers "fixed" the wrong problem.

[MissAlmond]

Well, folks, after being granted an overnight pass, I told the doctors I was ready to leave therapy and go back into what I hope is a new world.  I know many in the group don't feel this way, but I enjoyed what I saw.  I always knew one thing would be left standing and don't mind if it plays out in a different way.  But I've missed things so much and want to go back.  I was advised to try this (perhaps) new world for the rest of the month and then reevaluate.  That is, if that new world is even there to reevaluate. 

 

I want to thank all of you who have helped me here in the therapy group. It’s comforting to know all of you will be here for me if a relapse occurs.

Edited February 3, 2015 by MissAlmond

[Limelight]

While I was watching the House Hunters scene in last night's SH, I thought about how few really charming scenes we've had recently with Abbie and Ichabod where she's educating him about the modern world. They were in most episodes in season 1 but when the CFD took over, they weren't around much and I really missed them.

I was reading some of the responses from Katrina fans and they seemed upset about Ichabod going with Abbie and not Katrina to house hunt. To me, if you don't understand why Abbie was there for Ichabod then we're watching different shows. The whole point was that Ichabod needed Abbie to help him understand modern house buying, cozy bedrooms, etc. (I loved that part!). But also telling him that he needs a job and paperwork to get a mortgage, something that he needed to be told. What would Katrina have done for him in that scene? She's just as clueless as he is about the modern world.

Also, if it was Katrina and Ichabod looking for a house together, then I tuned into the wrong show! That's not why I watch this show, to see an episode with just Ichabod and Kat looking for a love nest!

That one little scene really made it known that Abbie is the most important person in Ichabod's life, he truly needs her and clearly loves her. I wonder if that scene was added after the Backlash?

[phoenics]

Continued from the "what do you think will happen" thread..

I don't love her.  I just feel bad for the nice but limited Swedish lady who's getting kicked to death for not being able to spin shit into gold like others in the cast.  The ultimate fault here would seem to lie with the folks who gave everybody shit to work with in the first place.

That would depend on whether you believe KW now vs KW in the past. She's made it quite clear that in the past she was very happy with the direction this year and with the writing - and she kinda bragged about the writers listening to her ideas for Katrina. So - it's not about her being able to make gold into poop - it's about the fact that the show went to poop because the writing tried to make her a (in KW's words) "central character".

Have you read her latest interview where she complains about the size of Abbie's fan base? There is a legit reason why so many fans don't like her. It's ain't because she's Swedish. It's because she's entitled. And because her presence is disrupting everything that was good with the show.

And we've been very vocal in expressing our dislike of Goffman and what he's done to this show... but that doesn't give KW a pass. She dug her own hole - and none of her latest interviews are helping her case, nor are they pointing to the "nice" person you speak of.

She comes off as entitled and bitter because she failed in taking over this show and keeping the focus on her. Her comment about how big Abbie's fan base (as if she and NB are in competition) was petty and resentful. Shame.

[catrox14]

It bugs me because she said in a tweet a couple of weeks ago that she had no control over the story at all and yet she then talks about how much the writers have taken her suggestions.....so which is it Ms Winter?  And instead of saying something like "I think it's great that Abbie has so many loyal fans. I hope Katrina's story will prove popular as well".  Instead she says things that maybe she doesn't intend but it comes off as kind of petty.  JMHO.

[methodwriter85]

She's trying to throw the writers under the bus, which comes off to me as pretty tacky considering the writers did everything they could this season to make people like Katrina.

[HalcyonDays]

I haven't read that interview.  However, I figure I'd complain about the size of somebody's fan base if that base spent a good bit of time shitting all over me because they thought I was part of a racist plot against the actress they loved.

But that's the confusing thing. Based on interviews and previous stuff posted online, Katia Winter has said that she's offered input and also worked with the writers on Katrina plot-points. There are different shots of her with the writers, with tags saying she's working with them on stuff. So this is what's disappointing about it. When the writers told her about Magic Mystical Pregnancies, it doesn't appear that she said..."uh, maybe not." Or when she fainted or failed at magic, I wish she would have said, "Can I not faint this time." If I'm being charitable, maybe she did. I would have HOPED that she would maybe pointed out how bad of an idea certain things were. On the flip side, she wants to work and wants to increase her screen time, so maybe she didn't want to complain. I understand that. The problem is that this whole thing backfired on her big time. Big time.

 

The backlash that came from the Deliverance episode was epic. Even those fans who had no use for Katrina KNEW that idea was terrible. We don't have to like a character to know how badly serviced/written they have been. What sucks for her is the quality of certain of her fans. Based on comments and stuff I've read online in multiple places, I feel back for her solely because of the comments from her "fans". There are some nasty ones out there, to the point where someone out there created a tumblr with screenshots of their posts and it's obvious delusion and/or racist content. I don't think I've ever read anyone who were huge fans of Mison/Ichabod or Abbie/Beharie ever write such vitriol. So I feel back for her for that. Because most (not all, but most) of the support she is getting is coming from people who says awful things. And if that's your fan base. THAT would really suck.

 

I don't know - I feel bad for her. What a rotten turn for her. She wants to work, wants a paycheck. I get it. Actors/Actresses put their foot in mouth's all of the time, so it's a lesson learned for her. The men tend to be forgiven easier for stupid things said. She was ill-serviced by really poor writing and a producer who has no vision. On top of that, her fans are an "interesting" lot of people who have said some shameful things. She just can't win. However, it doesn't excuse some of her comments and her acting abilities/delivery, etc.

[pcta]

I feel sorry for her, too. Not enough to want her character to remain stinking up a program I really loved. But enough to hope she gets another gig soon that better matches her persona.

[DeLurker]

Maybe she wanted to be a bigger part of the show as Ichabod's wife and they told her about the idea of the spy game with Abraham.  However, during filming and editing she got directions to the effect of "No, Katia, less humor and humanity, more breathless whispering and heaving bosom melodrama."

 

I haven't read that interview.  However, I figure I'd complain about the size of somebody's fan base if that base spent a good bit of time shitting all over me because they thought I was part of a racist plot against the actress they loved.

 

That all said, you're right.  Simply by not elevating the material, she brings down the show.  Even when it's repetitive and comes off a little as dog-piling, I suppose I'm generally okay with straightforward criticism.  One thing that does kind of annoy me is the nick-naming.  "Struggle witch" "Whisper-tits"  "Special snowflake"  If the main rule of this site is "pretend you're at someone else's party," why are we assuming that Katia isn't somewhere in this party too?

I don't venture out much into social media but if there are examples of Abbie Fans making allegations of racism at Katrina or KW, that would be distasteful and hurtful to her.   And I think the various interviewers would be pretty specific if they were asking her about her response to that kind of thing which I have not ventured across.  There have been some very pro-Katrina comments in social media just on the basis that she is white.  I think most everyone agrees that this is not representative of ALL Katrina/KW fans nor a reflection on KW's personal beliefs.  From the comments on racism I have heard, they've been directed towards Goffman, TPTB, the writers, ...  If I am not mistaken, allegations of racism have been quickly shut down here by the mods.

 

I'll defer to the mods if any of our nicknames are out of bounds.  SpecialSnowflake I hear used all the time IRL and find nothing overtly offensive about it (I've been called it to my face).  Same with StruggleWitch.  And since they are usually used in addressing the charactor and not the actor, I would make the argument that on a board about tv it is fair game.  Whisper_Tits may be pushing it, but again it is about the character, the direction and the costuming.  This does fall into more grey area for me.

[OnceSane]

For those wondering, "Whisper-Tits" is not okay.

[RiddleyWalker]

For those wondering, "Whisper-Tits" is not okay.

Oh, hell! That was my favorite!

 

Hmmm.. must think of a great Katrina nickname… Any thoughts from the fans here?  

[jhlipton]

I feel sorry for her, too. Not enough to want her character to remain stinking up a program I really loved. But enough to hope she gets another gig soon that better matches her persona.

 

A Tree Grows in Brooklyn.  She can play the tree.

[kieyra]

Hey guys. Checked out for a week after Spellcaster (which I didn't watch). How are things looking this week? Are we on track for EvilKatrina, so that if the show is renewed we can get a full season of Katrina's Redemption?

[phoenics]

Oh, hell! That was my favorite!

 

Hmmm.. must think of a great Katrina nickname… Any thoughts from the fans here?

StruggleWitch and StruggleDarkWitch...? I've also heard Wig Stand. Oh - also Floptrina.

I like the struggle ones though, but I usually only use a nickname for her when I'm really put out, lol.