Small Talk: The Quiver

[EmeraldArcher]

Wow!  I really love this discourse about fandom and fangirls!

I teach at a university, and I out myself as a fangirl all the time.  It used to shock people a little bit, I think, that I would discuss my fangirling with anybody from students, custodians, colleagues, administrators, and donors.  Whenever I'm in a situation in which I'm asked to "tell us about yourself," I include being a fangirl and omit being a mom or a wife or any of the other expected demographic information I'm supposed to volunteer. However, I don't fit the fangirl demographic they envision--I'm well-educated, hold multiple senior leadership positions, dress professionally, have only a single piercing in each ear, and don't doodle anime characters on the back cover of a My Little Pony notebook that I carry with me ironically (I don't even own a notebook and can't draw to save my life).

The same (white het) male colleagues who can bash BvS, quote Deadpool, and assign every person in the department an X-Men code name barely tolerate my enthusiasm for comics-based shows and movies. I didn't grow up reading the comics, so I'm not invited to the club.  Oh, and I'm a girl. A fangirl.

I just continue to say "Fuck 'em" and carry my fandom on colorful tote bags to class. 

(Sorry that my paltry contribution to your excellent discourse was more testimonial than insightful commentary, but I had a lot to get off my heaving, fangirl  bosom.)

[wonderwall]

5 minutes ago, EmeraldArcher said:

(Sorry that my paltry contribution to your excellent discourse was more testimonial than insightful commentary, but I had a lot to get off my heaving, fangirl  bosom.)

This is hardly paltry at all and helps back up a lot of claims that are being made in this thread!

It sucks you have to deal with that elitist attitude from some comic book fans. I could say I don't know where that attitude came from or why it came to be, but we all know it's rooted in sexism. These guys instead of nurturing your interest and teaching you more about the comics and letting you in, have shunned your interest as though your interest doesn't mean much when in reality your interest means a LOT to Marvel/DC/Disney/WB because your interests translates into dollars. Your interest as well as the interest of every woman/fangirl is the reason why these fanboys get to enjoy the comics/the movies/etc. Because without your viewership sales would've bombed.

[looptab]

4 hours ago, dtissagirl said:

I agree. I think it's because Felicity represents a victory to female fandom that's pretty unheard of in media that's assumed "masculine".

Agreed. I think it's also because of the 'appropriation' issue. At first Felicity was loved by the very people that now call for her head. Now that she's out of those boundaries they attributed her (just the comic relief who has a crush on the lead) - which is a thing that pleases the female fandom - they have turned against her, because it's not just for them anymore.

[EmeraldArcher]

Thanks, @wonderwall!

An irony so clear it should slap them in the face is that these fanboys often acuse me of being an Arrow fangirl because of SA's abs!!* HA! Female superheroes in comics are absurdly under-dressed, with the tiniest waists, longest legs, and disproportionately largest breasts, with hardly a scrap of clothes to cover the lady bits. 

It's my experience that male fans aren't the only ones who want to squash fangirls.  Females who have no interest in comics/superhero/sci-fi fandoms have also tried to make me feel weird for being a fangirl.  It's sadly a conditioned response for women to suppress other women who pioneer in traditionally male spheres. Het women strive to be attractive to men at all costs (sometimes exorbitant costs) and have historically been (or seemed) more severe on other women than men in order to elevate their own status among the men. Bah!

I do have an odd question--do any of you think that there is a connection between the demise of daytime soap operas and the rise of fangirls? Comics and comics-based shows definitely have soap-opera qualities (as openly discussed by Arrow EPs). Do you think more females gravitated to the comics genre when the major soaps disappeared from daytime TV, or do you think that something else (such as the Internet, social media, greater availability/access) better explains the Fangirl Movement?

*Clearly that ship sailed sometime in S2, and yet here I still am. :-)

[bijoux]

My wifi is being wonky on my iPad. About the only thing opening is Twitter, and even there pictures won't load and I can't open links. At the same time I'm writing this from my cell phone using the same wifi, so it can't be the router. Has anyone had this happening to them and do you know how to fix it?

[BkWurm1]

Quote

It's my experience that male fans aren't the only ones who want to squash fangirls.  Females who have no interest in comics/superhero/sci-fi fandoms have also tried to make me feel weird for being a fangirl.

I know what you are talking about.  For those that don't have an interest in fandom, being a fangirl is highly puzzling to them and like so much that people don't understand, they end up deciding it's wrong or weird or a waste of time.

Quote

I do have an odd question--do any of you think that there is a connection between the demise of daytime soap operas and the rise of fangirls? Comics and comics-based shows definitely have soap-opera qualities (as openly discussed by Arrow EPs). Do you think more females gravitated to the comics genre when the major soaps disappeared from daytime TV, or do you think that something else (such as the Internet, social media, greater availability/access) better explains the Fangirl Movement?

I don't think one correlates with the other.  I have a friend that grew up occasionally watching The Young and the Restless and one summer, she got me to watch.  And for a summer, I enjoyed it only to find out that I had shown up at a freak time period at the peak of a number of storylines so I was getting all these great stories only to find out that quickly the show went back to streeeeeetching out the most monotonous moments ever.  I checked back a year later and all the same crap was still being stress and angsted over. 

I learned very finally that soap operas were not for me.  I hated the pace, I hated the inta kids growing up in a handful of years, I hated the lighting and the music and the way everything was hashed and rehashed and that when something good happened it was cue to undo everything so they could start redoing it all over again. 

I think what happened to soap operas is that people decided they could find something better to watch. Or maybe people are just too busy.  Five hours of television a week watching a soap?  That's a lot to ask. 

I also discovered at an early age that I hated the night time soaps.  The conniving and backstabbing is like toothpicks through my eyes.  I don't watch Greys, I don't watch Scandal but I also find one and done procedurals unsatisfying.  I want something that has mystery and intrigue and suspense and action but I also want love and romance and occasionally tears.  And I want what happens in an episode to impact the character beyond that episode. 

So I can't say that I've turned to comic book action shows to fill the need for soaps since I don't like them in general but you could say that I've found maybe an idealized version of what I wished for that summer soap to be in some serialized actions show. 

It's really not about the melodrama, it's about the serialization. I want to stay with the characters and see their lives unfold, but I'm not interested in petty squabbles or corporate infighting.  I like the kind of stories that can come out of a comic universe whether it's time traveling frivolity or an attempt at a gritty take on a vigilante. 

Since I am following life, I expect life to include all the heroics of a comic book hero AND all the ups and downs and real life which includes trying to find love.  Maybe in the past soaps were the only place where a long romance could be watched played out over time but I think there are just more and IMO better options out there now.  And yes, one of them is Arrow, lol. 

Edited June 3, 2016 by BkWurm1

[EmeraldArcher]

4 minutes ago, bijoux said:

My wifi is being wonky on my iPad. About the only thing opening is Twitter, and even there pictures won't load and I can't open links. At the same time I'm writing this from my cell phone using the same wifi, so it can't be the router. Has anyone had this happening to them and do you know how to fix it?

Ugh, I can't believe I'm saying this, but have you tried turning it off and back on again?  An Apple Genius swears that should be the first step when our devices go wonky.

[BkWurm1]

Just logged on to my iPad to see if that's causing any issues but it seems to be fine.  That said, I haven't downloaded the latest update. 

[bijoux]

3 minutes ago, EmeraldArcher said:

Ugh, I can't believe I'm saying this, but have you tried turning it off and back on again?  An Apple Genius swears that should be the first step when our devices go wonky.

:D Yup, I've tried both that and restarting the router. 

[thegirlsleuth]

I love your comments about navigating the world as a fangirl @EmeraldArcher, and am thinking about my own.  I could definitely be considered a fangirl, but I don't think anyone could identify me as such and I do hide it.  I have a day job in administration at a nonprofit, where I present polished in order to blend in with the high end volunteers and donors we work with, and a night job writing crime novels, where I try to present as a "serious" writer because my publisher positions my books as literary. The guys in the IT department at the nonprofit and I have discussed comics and movies after I asked them to let me break the "no streaming" policy because of my need to listen to the Battlestar Galactica soundtrack when writing. In the writing life, a lot of the female authors have read fan-fiction--Harry Potter was very influential--but those conversations don't happen at the public level.  Its a badge of honor among the men to be asked to write different comics, but women are overlooked, even when they wear Flash t-shirts everywhere. I could go off on a whole tangent with comparisons of the the fanboy/fangirl experience and the gender disparity in "male" crime fiction verses "female" crime fiction, and how one is considered more valid than the other, but that's why crime writers have the Sisters-in-Crime organization.

I don't have any numbers, but I don't think that there is a correlation between the rise of fandom and the fall of soaps, just because fandom has been around for so long. Personally, I haven't been a fan of soaps because I need a really active plot and daytime soaps worked very slowly.  When done well, the sci fi/superhero genre gives me plot along with character development.  I can't imagine what I would have done if the internet didn't exist during my first super fannish experience--I probably would have talked my sister's ear off about Buffy in our living room.

[catrox14]

19 minutes ago, EmeraldArcher said:

Ugh, I can't believe I'm saying this, but have you tried turning it off and back on again?  An Apple Genius swears that should be the first step when our devices go wonky.

Not a word of a lie, I had this at my desk at my previous job. My boss never knew what to think of it. And I'm pretty sure I only ever implemented this solution...once.

[EmeraldArcher]

3 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

So I can't say that I've turned to comic book action shows to fill the need for soaps since I don't like them in general but you could say that I've found maybe an idealized version of what I wished for a summer soaps could be in some serialized actions show. 

It's really not about the melodrama, it's about the serialization. I want to stay with the characters and see their lives unfold, but I'm not interested in petty squabbles or corporate infighting.  I like the kind of stories that can come out of a comic universe whether it's time traveling frivolity or an attempt at a gritty take on a vigilante. 

Since I am following life, I expect life to include all the heroics of a comic book hero AND all the ups and downs and real life which includes trying to find love.  Maybe in the past soaps were the only place where a long romance could be watched played out over time but I think there are just more and IMO better options out there now.  And yes, one of them is Arrow, lol. 

Your statement (I added bold formatting) reminds me of a conversation I had with a female colleague years ago about our shared histrory of watching soaps.  She was the first to articulate something that resonated--the serialization of soaps allowed us to really invest in characters because we saw so much of their lives. I started watching with my grandmas before I started kindergarten, so by the time I quit them in my very early 20s, I had seen generations of soap families.

I don't really miss soaps at all, and I don't think super hero shows have replaced soaps in my entertainment preferences.  I think it's more that I'm a Gen-Xer who's jaded enough to really crave heroism.  I'm drawn to heroes' stories, and I especially love redemption stories. I love heroic vigilantes because I can live vicariously through them and combat the injustices in my world. I'd love to be stealthy and a seemingly unbeatable fighter with a mad specialized skill (like archery), and I'd love to wipe out those who prey on and hurt the defenseless. But, I'm never going to be that, so watching it play out over and over in diverse heroes is utterly awesome.

I also love the human side of the heroes. I appreciate their struggle and sacrifice.  I know a lot of people on here abuse Barry for always crying, but I sometimes wonder if they wouldn't have been so hard if Felicity hadn't been targeted for crying in S3 by other online fans. Personally, I don't mind it at all when Barry cries or seems a little lost.  I can imagine how incredibly overwhelming his life must seem, and how heavy his responsibilities as a hero must feel.  In the same way, I don't begrudge Oliver his broodiness or hesitation in accepting his own hero status. If the writers would explore their heroes' humanity just a tad more to balance out the action and intrigue, I think these shows could be so much better.

I wonder how much generational status factors into fandom, or at least motivations for fandom. For example, I think Gen-Xers, whose grandparents were "The Greatest Generation," grew up idolizing their grandparents as being part of a generation defined by sacrifice and heroism.  My grandpa just passed away at age 95, and he told me stories of surviving the Great Depression as a young boy and about his service during WWII, especially in the Battle of the Bulge and liberating the prisoners in the concentration camps. As much as those experiences have been romanticized by movies and TV, their grittiness and the audacity to live through them in order to survive stand out to me, and I see those elements in my superhero shows.

I know there are also Millenials on here and out in the world who equally enjoy the genre for other reasons, but I'm just trying to tease out (maybe for the first time), why I'm so drawn to epic hero stories.

[bijoux]

I've boiled down my reason for liking the superhero genre to me liking order. And at its core, this is what heroing is about, creating or restoring order. So that's the thing that appeals to me on a basic level. 

[BkWurm1]

Quote

 I know a lot of people on here abuse Barry for always crying, but I sometimes wonder if they wouldn't have been so hard if Felicity hadn't been targeted for crying in S3 by other online fans. Personally, I don't mind it at all when Barry cries or seems a little lost.

Oh for sure.  I don't begrudge Barry his tears or pain but I do begrudge the constant praise he receives for doing more of what earned Felicity derision and dismissal. 

Quote

I wonder how much generational status factors into fandom, or at least motivations for fandom. For example, I think Gen-Xers, whose grandparents were "The Greatest Generation," grew up idolizing their grandparents as being part of a generation defined by sacrifice and heroism.  My grandpa just passed away at age 95, and he told me stories of surviving the Great Depression as a young boy and about his service during WWII, especially in the Battle of the Bulge and liberating the prisoners in the concentration camps. As much as those experiences have been romanticized by movies and TV, their grittiness and the audacity to live through them in order to survive stand out to me, and I see those elements in my superhero shows.

I land in Gen X but all but my Grandfather died either before I was born or before I was 8 and my grandfather was too old to fight in WWII, lol.   (He did have fond memories of being stationed in Hawaii between the wars and took his second wife there for their honeymoon but I didn't even know he'd been in the army until my teens)  So I can say for myself, the attraction isn't based on something passed down from my grandparents. 

I think it's simpler than that and partly what Bijioux said about order.  Good vs Evil.  Good should win even though we know often it doesn't. Comic book shows or shows that follow the same spirit may not allow easy wins or wins all the time but the feeling is that eventually they will prevail.  

[bijoux]

I don't know where to put this, neither News and Media, nor Social Media seem the right fit, so here we go. Look who's mentioned in the quiz.

http://www.sporcle.com/games/nspyred/same-name-trios-iii

[BkWurm1]

Finished the new Roots mini series.  I remember watching at least part of the original series in a history class in high school many years ago but my memory is fuzzy so I can't say how the two versions compare but I thought the new version was incredibly well done.  It was four, two-hour parts  and in each part they basically told a generation's story until right after the Civil War, but they managed to beautifully connect each character back to every character that came before in a highly effective and moving manner. 

Unsurprisingly, it's not always the easiest thing to watch, but so very well done and left me wanting more when it was over.   I kept thinking that I'd be disappointed as they introduced the next character we were to focus on and each time I fell in love with them.  

Highly recommend but the viewer discretion warnings are there for a reason.   

[tv echo]

On 6/2/2016 at 8:09 AM, tv echo said:

Marc Guggenheim: "I would say, in all honesty, in many ways, there’s always been an element of soap opera that runs through all comic books... In many respects, I think comic books have almost taken their cue from soap operas and television dramas."

Andrew Kreisberg (referring to Greg Berlanti's first time crying over a comic book when Barry died in Crisis): "It was the first time he realized that comic books were basically just soap operas for boys." 

Gizmodo: "Adapting a comic is completely different from adapting a book. A book is (usually) its own self-contained story and, unless it's George RR Martin length, it's relatively simple to adapt the pages onto the silver screen. Thanks to their serialised nature, it's not quite so easy to do that with comics. Sure you can adapt individual story arcs, but comics never really end....  Ongoing series are the soap operas of the literary world. Characters may come and go, but the stories just keep coming. But as amazing as a daily superhero soap sounds, it probably wouldn't work. The next best thing would be an ongoing TV series." 

I posted the above in the Bitterness thread yesterday because I had just read yet another article that slammed Arrow for turning into a "soap opera" (term used contemptuously) while simultaneously praising The Flash for sticking to its comic book roots (the unstated assumption being that real superhero shows are not soap operas because comic books are not soap operas). I got so fed up that I did some research...

Stan Lee (legendary comic book creator for Marvel): "Comic book stories? 'I thought of it a little bit like [writing] a soap opera,' says Stan Lee."
(Excerpt from book titled Comic Books: How the Industry Works by Shirrel Rhoades, with Afterword by Stan Lee, copyright 2008)

Grant Morrison (legendary comic book writer for DC and Marvel): “'They’re missing the full spectrum of these character’s emotional lives. The most important thing is the long, involved soap operas. It’s a type of narrative that you don’t get anywhere else except on very long-running soap operas, where characters can go into depth. 20 pages every month going into these characters lives over decades give you a lot more insight and a lot more involvement than say a two hour movie, even with Robert Downey Jr.' – Grant Morrison, explaining what fans of superhero movies are missing if they don’t read the comic books."
("‘The most important thing is the long, involved soap operas’" by Kevin Melrose, May 13, 2013)

Shirrel Rhoades (former Executive Vice President of Marvel Entertainment): "FLASHBACK ... At Marvel's offsite editorial session, we familiarize writers and artists with our characters, offer a refresher course in sequential art storytelling. Editor-in-chief Bob Harras brings in scripts from television soap operas to use as training material, explaining that comics tell an ongoing story from issue to issue, not unlike Guiding Light or Days of Our Lives."
(Excerpt from book titled Comic Books: How the Industry Works by Shirrel Rhoades, with Afterword by Stan Lee, copyright 2008)

Shirrel Rhoades (former Executive Vice President of Marvel Entertainment): "Marvel's monthly publications have been likened to graphic soap operas, depicting super heroes with human challenges and frailties."
(Excerpt from book titled A Complete History of American Comic Books by Shirrel Rhoades, copyright 2008)

The New York Times: "Comic books and soap operas have a lot in common: never-ending stories, characters with complex histories and a preponderance of long-lost relatives (evil twins or otherwise)."
("Pulpy TV and Soapy Comics Find a Lot to Agree On" by GEORGE GENE GUSTINES, October 31, 2006)

ComicMix: "Mainstream comics also show soap influence. When I started to read comics, every issue was self-contained, and most stories were about the fights and the powers. Now the characters have more developed emotional lives, and readers are as caught up with the personalities as they are with determining who would win in a fight."
("Of Soap and Comic Books" by Martha Thomases, September 23, 2011)

Comic Vine: "People associate comic books with superheroes but they often end up being more like soap operas. ...  Superman, Lois Lane and Clark Kent was one of the first superhero love triangles we saw. From the beginning, Lois was fascinated with Superman. In his alter ego, Clark tried winning over Lois but she was barely aware he even existed. This went on for decades until Lois finally started seeing Clark for who he was. They started dated and eventually got engaged. This was when Clark decided to finally confide in Lois and revealed he was actually Superman. The two got married but with DC's 'The New 52' relaunch, Lois and Clark are no longer married. This allows readers to witness the Clark try to win Lois' affections all over again. ...  Superhero comics aren't just about heroes and villains fighting. For love and romance to play such a big role in the action-orientated comics, it says something about what readers want. Seeing the heroes let their guard down and get close to another let's us see them as a little more human."
("Off My Mind: Love and Relationships in Comic Books" by Tony 'G-Man' Guerrero, September 25, 2011)

Comicsgirl: "But reading about the 'death' of Batman (and unless you’re living under a rock, that’s not really a spoiler) makes me think the comic-books-as-soap-operas thing is a little big closer than most people want to admit. ... Because no one stays dead in either."
("Comic books as soap operas" by comicsgirl, Nov. 26, 2008)

Beams and Struts: "[On things comics and soap operas have in common:] 1. Everyone's really good looking. And fit. And young. Older characters are wizened old villains/villainesses or kindly elders. ... 6. People come back from the dead. If a character died outside the scene, don't trust it. It only looks like they died. If they're popular enough, they'll be back. If they absolutely and finally kicked the bucket, and everyone saw it, don't trust it. If they're popular enough, they'll be back. There might be a plausible explanation, a ridiculous explanation, or no explanation. ... 7. Everyone has a significant and previously unmentioned sibling/parent/child/twin. With comics, add clones and aliens to that list. If the viewer/reader isn't aware of every second of a character's backstory, there's someone they're related to waiting in the wings to stir up a storm. ... 8. Both tell ongoing stories, indefinitely. There's no resolution in sight, folks. Batman will never retire, nor will he clean up all of the crime ridden streets of Gotham City. If he dies (and doesn't come back to life) someone else will become Batman (and then the original Batman will come back to life). The people on The Young and the Restless will never solve their differences and live happily ever after. Unless the show gets cancelled. Even then, probably not. ... 10. They give the audience what they expect but still surprise them. The format is set. But suspense is a must. Heroes battle their familiar rogue's gallery, and win, but with new moves, new tricks, new devices, new twists, new quips. Soap characters enact their machinations to sabotage each others relationships and/or preserve their own relationships, but it can't be exactly like it happened last season, or last month, or last week. But it can't be too different either."
("13 Things Comics and Soap Operas Have in Common" by TJ Dawe, December 18, 2011)

GQ: "First, though, a few things you should know: One, this sort of thing happens in comic books all the time. Superhero comics are, essentially, soap operas, but with lasers and shit—and like soap operas, shocking deaths, disappearances, and resurrections are all par for the course. When you are telling one long ongoing story for decades, crazy stuff is bound to happen now and again."
("And Just Like That, the White Captain America Is Back" by Joshua Rivera, January 21, 2016)

Charleston Gazette-Mail: "Neither side likes to admit it, but comic books and soap operas are a lot alike. Both tell melodramatic stories and use elements that require quite a bit of suspension of disbelief. Both have rabid fans who follow the stories closely and call 'foul' quickly when something violates established continuity. And both genres are treated with no small level of disrespect by the mainstream press."
("The Comic Book/Soap Opera Connection" by Rudy Panucci, October 31, 2006)

Bradford W. Wright (author): "The Amazing Spider-Man become one of the first superhero soap operas, inviting readers to return each month to check in on the latest trials and tribulations of the hero and his supporting cast. It was all part of Lee's calculated marketing to teenagers."
(Excerpt from book titled Comic Book Nation by Bradford W. Wright, copyright 2001)

Amanda M. Lee (author): "I see a lot of people tossing the phrase 'it’s becoming a soap opera' around about various shows like it’s a bad thing. ...  First off, I’m a huge soap opera fan – and I don’t think that’s an insult. The genre has survived for decades for a reason. ...  Secondly, The Walking Dead television show is based on a comic book. And, quite frankly, comic books ARE soap operas. They’re just soap operas for boys.  Don’t believe me? Comic books are all random sex, back from the dead characters, long lost twins, reboots, recasts and past retconning. The same as soaps. ...  Just because you hear a buzz word on something, that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s true -- or that truth is somehow bad."
("Is The Walking Dead a soap opera? And is that a bad thing?" by Amanda M. Lee, February 11, 2014) 

MisAngela (fan blogger): "Marvel and DC are soap operas for comic book nerds. They have convoluted stories, multiple universes, characters being killed off and then magically coming back, changed backstories to suit the writer at the time… It’s the same. Exactly the same."
("Why DC and Marvel are Soap Operas" by MisAngela, January 27, 2011)

Edited June 3, 2016 by tv echo

[manbearpig]

Finally got around to watching the Arrow finale. I feel like if Once Upon A Time hadn't already ruined the word 'hope' for me, this finale would have done it. (Posting this here because I didn't really care about anything that happened enough to make an actual comment).

Also I'm thrilled that Unreal is coming back just as all my other shows are going away. I really do need more Rachel/Quinn shenanigans.

[bijoux]

12 hours ago, bijoux said:

My wifi is being wonky on my iPad. About the only thing opening is Twitter, and even there pictures won't load and I can't open links. At the same time I'm writing this from my cell phone using the same wifi, so it can't be the router. Has anyone had this happening to them and do you know how to fix it?

And the damn thing just started working gain on it's own. What sorcery is this?!

by the way, how are you guys doing with the multiquote function on your mobile devices? It's not working for me on either my cell or the iPad. I can only use quote.

[Delphi]

It works fine on my mobile (galaxy s5).  And it's amazeballs.  I could never do it before and it's so nice to not have my posts be incoherent messes.

[bijoux]

I have s5 mini, so I don't get why it doesn't work for me. 

[Happy Harpy]

11 hours ago, bijoux said:

I don't know where to put this, neither News and Media, nor Social Media seem the right fit, so here we go. Look who's mentioned in the quiz.

http://www.sporcle.com/games/nspyred/same-name-trios-iii

I love this site and I was fangirling when I saw this one :D

[wonderwall]

NOOOOOOOOOOO. NOT ZACHARY LEVI. Ugh

Zachary Levi Says Women 'F*cking Killed' Chivalry

http://www.pajiba.com/celebrities_are_better_than_you/zachary-levi-says-women-fcking-killed-chivalry.php?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

[Delphi]

13 minutes ago, bijoux said:

I have s5 mini, so I don't get why it doesn't work for me. 

Is your browser up to date?   I had to update chrome after the site makeover to get it to work right on my phone. 

[catrox14]

31 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

NOOOOOOOOOOO. NOT ZACHARY LEVI. Ugh

Zachary Levi Says Women 'F*cking Killed' Chivalry

http://www.pajiba.com/celebrities_are_better_than_you/zachary-levi-says-women-fcking-killed-chivalry.php?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Dude. Just ...no.

I never really liked Chuck and never got the love for Zachary Levi myself so at least I'm not disappointed.

My favorite part of the response

Quote

I personally don’t like having the door opened for me or my chair pulled out, not even necessarily because I’m a strong woman who can do it myself but because that shit takes FOREVER and I have stuff to do like get into the car or sit down so I can order my food and I just don’t have time to wait for you to dance around like a goddamn pantomime prince baby and do your unnatural “M’lady, let me get your chair” peacock dance so I know how nice you are so I can hand you my vag on a platter. It’s just a whole lot of work.

Edited June 3, 2016 by catrox14

[wonderwall]

One thing I've learned today... Never have faves. They eventually let you down...

[dtissagirl]

14 hours ago, EmeraldArcher said:

I do have an odd question--do any of you think that there is a connection between the demise of daytime soap operas and the rise of fangirls? Comics and comics-based shows definitely have soap-opera qualities (as openly discussed by Arrow EPs). Do you think more females gravitated to the comics genre when the major soaps disappeared from daytime TV, or do you think that something else (such as the Internet, social media, greater availability/access) better explains the Fangirl Movement?

That doesn't apply to my soap opera experience. Here in Brazil there's no such thing as "daytime" soaps. Soap operas are shown in primetime. The biggest TV stars are soap stars. Soap writers are the best paid writers on TV. They have super high production values. The head writers are superstars, and we treat them like prestige showrunners in the US.

Brazilian soaps are closer to Mexican telenovelas in format only -- they run 6 days a week for 6 to 8 months. We call episodes "chapters", they usually end in a cliffhanger, the pace of the story is muuuuch slower than weekly serials, etc. But the difference here is that soap opera ISN'T a genre -- they're the medium, just like comic books. Just as you can have comic books about anything in any genre, soaps here can be any genre.

It actually took me forever to understand what people in the U.S meant when they say something is soap-y, because here we get all kinds of soap operas -- comedies, dramas, thrillers, rom-coms, young adult*, fantasy, period drama... and yes, melodrama too, but that's not the default. And this is the medium where I think my geekery brew, because my favorite soaps have always been the ones that played with fantastic realism -- which is a genre that isn't really popular anywhere but in Latin America -- but it's the one we have here that touches on the themes that mainstream English-based sci-fi does. As a kid, I always got bored midway through by the thriller/drama/period soaps, but I was always *super invested* in the fantastic realism ones. And it stuck for life.

* We actually have one young adult soap that's been on TV for some 20 years, but they revamp it completely every couple of years, so it's not really a longstanding on-going story. It's more like an anthology series.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, wonderwall said:

One thing I've learned today... Never have faves. They eventually let you down...

Right?

The comments on that article are fantastic

[Delphi]

1 hour ago, wonderwall said:

One thing I've learned today... Never have faves. They eventually let you down...

That's why my only fave fave is Angelina.  All she wants to do is save all the children and animals.  

[wonderwall]

I'm kind of worried for Tom Hiddleston now lol 

[foreverevolving]

1 hour ago, wonderwall said:

One thing I've learned today... Never have faves. They eventually let you down...

I've learned that last month (or the one before) when I found out George Clooney has decided to endorse Clinton rather than Sanders. That was a total let down.

[catrox14]

44 minutes ago, foreverevolving said:

I've learned that last month (or the one before) when I found out George Clooney has decided to endorse Clinton rather than Sanders. That was a total let down.

Oh Gods I was worried you were gonna say he endorsed Trump...whew

[foreverevolving]

27 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Oh Gods I was worried you were gonna say he endorsed Trump...whew

naaa he comes from a democratic household (both parents are democrats), something tells me if he would have done - support Trump- we would have heard that his father has chosen to have him committed to a mental hospital. And I would have had to reevaluate the last 17 years of my life.. ouch.

[bijoux]

5 hours ago, Delphi said:

Is your browser up to date?   I had to update chrome after the site makeover to get it to work right on my phone. 

I think so. Honestly, no clue. Thanks for the clue.

[Mellowyellow]

I am reading all this Fangirl/Fanboystuff and it's really doing my head in. I find it bizarre as at the end of the day it is only TV. Is it a western culture thing? Is it a recent thing?

My heritage is Asian (am an Aussie though). When I was young every month we would rent a stack of VHS tapes (like up to 30 tapes, Chinese series) and we'd watch a series together. Most of them were soapy kung foo series with heroes, heroines, big bads, lots of romance, pining (hehe think season 3 Arrow). And my mum, dad and I would watch it. We'd visit our relatives on the weekend and discuss the series with them. All my uncles would watch it and fight over who the hero should fall in love with. There was never an issue of "oh that is too soapy or girly." And these were middle aged asian men in the 90s so I wouldn't say they were particularly modern in their thinking! 

My husband and his friend at uni were addicted to this gawd awful korean series which had memory loss, love triangles, blindness, lots of crying etc etc etc. The friend watched the series 6 times!!!!!! They were in an engineering course and the series was passed around between all the boys (who all seemed to think it was like the best series ever) so I have never thought that romance was a nono amongst males. Now I am wondering if I just know really weird guys! Or maybe because they were all asian guys?

Edited June 4, 2016 by Mellowyellow

[NumberCruncher]

I think it's a cultural thing.  American males in particular are conditioned to be aggressively masculine and that manifests itself in how they perceive media and how they interact with females online.  Most men I know wouldn't be caught dead watching soap operas as they deem them "too girly" although fortunately they don't crap all over girls for liking them.  That said, I've run into more dudebro types online in all their obnoxious glory than I have ever cared to encounter.  Like that article mentions, it's especially bad in those more male-dominated areas of fandom (sci-fi, comic books, sports, video games, etc.).

[kismet]

19 hours ago, EmeraldArcher said:

I do have an odd question--do any of you think that there is a connection between the demise of daytime soap operas and the rise of fangirls? Comics and comics-based shows definitely have soap-opera qualities (as openly discussed by Arrow EPs). Do you think more females gravitated to the comics genre when the major soaps disappeared from daytime TV, or do you think that something else (such as the Internet, social media, greater availability/access) better explains the Fangirl Movement?

I feel like Daytime soaps have experienced a drop because there are no longer a consistent group of housewives home with the need to be entertained. Most people of all genders are now working during the day, so the core audience is shrinking. And then networks are looking for cheaper or flashier options.

I feel like the soap opera elements are not necessarily only related to fangirling but just that they appeal to the human experience. People are attracted to soap operatic elements because they are exaggerated versions of life, but there is a lot of truth & relatability at the core of soap operas. Maybe they are not exact replicas of our day to day but they have common things that people crave love, relationships, truths/secrets, power struggles. I may not have the same elements in my life, but I can see little pieces of myself or things I want in the characters. And that appeal, I think does cross gender lines - but it manifests a little differently.

[catrox14]

I was a big General Hospital fan back in college. We'd schedule our classes around GH. We'd watch the show together in common area because it had a TV.  We'd watch Dallas and Dynasty at night. This included guys. Macho, athletic dudes who also loved comic books and fully acknowledged the serial and soap aspects of them. 

I just don't know when it became so divided.

Edited June 4, 2016 by catrox14

[kismet]

6 hours ago, wonderwall said:

NOOOOOOOOOOO. NOT ZACHARY LEVI. Ugh

Zachary Levi Says Women 'F*cking Killed' Chivalry

http://www.pajiba.com/celebrities_are_better_than_you/zachary-levi-says-women-fcking-killed-chivalry.php?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

I do agree that chivalry is in general dead or at least on life support. I'm not sure who exactly killed. And although it is not a well formulated argument, I do believe there is a shred of truth that as females became more independent as a gender, perhaps that helped to contribute to the slow death of chivalry. But there is no way women are solely responsible for killing it.

[foreverevolving]

15 minutes ago, kismet said:

I do agree that chivalry is in general dead or at least on life support. I'm not sure who exactly killed. And although it is not a well formulated argument, I do believe there is a shred of truth that as females became more independent as a gender, perhaps that helped to contribute to the slow death of chivalry. But there is no way women are solely responsible for killing it.

I'm totally fine with that!

I hate it when guys hold the door for me (somebody did it with the elevator today and I was like: no need, this isn't gonna close itself on me, plus my body is waay bigger than your tiny hand supposedly holding the door), I have hands, and legs. the exception is of course if i'm carrying 50 bags or something super heavy and I would do the same for a guy in a similar situation, but just like that? that just annoys me. (although what really pissed me off more was when this stranger called "hi beautiful" today.. in the middle of the mall.. he was trying to sell me some shit in one of those beauty carts.. that pissed me even more!)

I'm also against letting a guy pay when on a date (especially when it's the first few dates).

so yea, I don't mind this as "chivalry" is dead i'm totally okay with it. 

[dtissagirl]

58 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I just don't know when it became so divided.

We can probably trace it, at least online. The status quo started being challenged in ways they weren't before in the last decade. Most shows from the 90s -- which is when online fandom became a thing, and when TV shows started exploring with serialization more -- were written from very paternalistic POVs, and were VERY VERY VERY white and heteronormative both on screen and behind the scenes. [And the stuff that wasn't was on HBO and Showtime, which not everybody had.]

I was doing a selected episodes rewatch of the X-Files before the revival, and I had this terrible realization that two of my favorite episodes of ALL TIME -- Small Potatoes and Post Modern Prometheus -- make rape into a joke. The punch line in both episodes is serial rapists are funny, haha! I mean, Vince Gilligan wrote Small Potatoes, and he's the king of television now. But that was what it was back then. Nobody was writing think pieces on how XF was making light of rape. It just wasn't part of the culture [fandom and pro media alike] to look at entertainment from a socially conscious POV.

Even 10 years ago, nobody was talking about representation in media in a trade like Variety. And now they hired Mo Ryan to do that. Fandom, especially transformative fandom [fanfic, fanart, vids, etc] has always been a little more socially conscious than your average viewer, but this thing about asking for media to be less male-centric, less white, less heteronormative, this is all super duper new. And now privilege is getting challenged from all sides, and pop culture is responding in small but sure ways, and well, it's not gonna go well with the privileged.

Edited June 4, 2016 by dtissagirl

[BkWurm1]

7 hours ago, wonderwall said:

One thing I've learned today... Never have faves. They eventually let you down...

Eh, I read the quotes and I think what he said was sort of taken out of context.  This the quote:
 

Quote

 

When asked his feelings about first dates, he had some thoughts.

Just don’t be a dick. Dating is so fucking dumb man, it’s so weird.

So true. Off to a great start. Well done, sir. Let’s keep this excellent back and forth going.

It’s so fascinating, girls say chivalry is dead. And it’s like if it’s dead, you fucking killed it. Because it used to be a guy could be a guy and a girl wouldn’t be offended if he got the door or something, and now it’s like “I can get the door for myself, I’m a strong woman,” and then it’s like “Fuck! I don’t know anymore.” First, know the type of girl you’re going on a date with, and if she’s into chivalry, that’s great, and if she’s not, then she’s not.

 

So he does say that women killed it but he's not even agreeing that it is dead (it's all "if it is dead") so that kind of negates that anyone killed it, but beyond that, his comment is all in the context of how confusing dating can be because there isn't one set of rules for proper behavior or one definition of what makes you a good guy.  I'm not going to hold it against him because he still puts the onus on the guy to figure it out and be flexible.     

I don't know if it is fair to overlook how confusing it really must be for someone to have been taught that a certain set of behaviors is the nice and polite and right thing to do only to have that behavior viewed as something you never intended it to be.  I don't think anyone is wrong in either side of the question of "chivalry".  It's all about individual choice and perception, but I do feel sympathy in trying to do something "good" and have your actions judged as insulting.      

It seems to me he was just being hyperbolic in his turn of phrase, but I think it's safe to still see him as a good guy that is trying.  He's not giving excuses for guys to behave poorly, just calling on them to pay more attention and respect what the woman they are with wants and rightly pointing out that dating is hard and confusing and yes, woman are different and there isn't one answer. 

Edited June 4, 2016 by BkWurm1

[dtissagirl]

My litmus test for chivalry is -- do you open doors for everyone? Okay. Do you only open doors for women? Kinda sexist. Do you only open doors for women you wanna bang? Creeper.

It's the danger of benevolent sexism: we don't see it because it's nice.

http://www.refinery29.com/2015/03/83755/chivalry-study-benevolent-sexism

Edited June 4, 2016 by dtissagirl

[BkWurm1]

Quote

My litmus test for chivalry is -- do you open doors for everyone? Okay. Do you only open doors for women? Kinda sexist.

I'm ok if guys aren't battling over who gets to hold the door for each other lol, but I agree that the polite behavior had better come out other than just date night.

[foreverevolving]

24 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

My litmus test for chivalry is -- do you open doors for everyone? Okay. Do you only open doors for women? Kinda sexist. Do you only open doors for women you wanna bang? Creeper.

It's the danger of benevolent sexism: we don't see it because it's nice.

http://www.refinery29.com/2015/03/83755/chivalry-study-benevolent-sexism

I like this way of thinking!

I admit I don't think I ever thought of it that way, mostly because every time someone says chivalry they usually refer to it in how a man treats a woman.

Edited June 4, 2016 by foreverevolving

[calliope1975]

I used to be a bit self-conscious of my fandom, but then I realized that men can spend hours planning, discussing, etc. their fantasy sportsball teams, and no one bats an eye. That type of obsession is a-okay, but me picking apart a TV or writing fanfic is weird? Uh uh. Suck it, haters. 

In unrelated news, I just came back from my vacation at my parents house - a 16 hour drive. One of my cats peed in my car. The towel and sheet I had under his carrier seems to have gotten most of it, but there is a smell if you get close to the seat. I'm seeing vinegar mixes or a product called Nature's Miracle from Google. Anyone have any real world experience with how to make my car not reek? 

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

I used to be a bit self-conscious of my fandom, but then I realized that men can spend hours planning, discussing, etc. their fantasy sportsball teams, and no one bats an eye. That type of obsession is a-okay, but me picking apart a TV or writing fanfic is weird? Uh uh. Suck it, haters

I think they just don't care about it so it's not important and if it's not important to them then OBVI it's not important to anyone.

[BkWurm1]

11 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

In unrelated news, I just came back from my vacation at my parents house - a 16 hour drive. One of my cats peed in my car. The towel and sheet I had under his carrier seems to have gotten most of it, but there is a smell if you get close to the seat. I'm seeing vinegar mixes or a product called Nature's Miracle from Google. Anyone have any real world experience with how to make my car not reek? 

If it's just the surface, I've found Fabreeze actually does a good job neutralizing the scent.  Give it a good soaking and when it dries, you should be good. 

[calliope1975]

14 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

If it's just the surface, I've found Fabreeze actually does a good job neutralizing the scent.  Give it a good soaking and when it dries, you should be good. 

Thanks, I'll try that. I think (hope) it is only the top fabric. He did so well on the way up - in not peeing that is. Poor guy yowled for 2 hours straight followed by hourly meltdowns. On the way home the 2 hours of yowling was only followed by meltdowns every 4 hours or so. :D

[foreverevolving]

22 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

Thanks, I'll try that. I think (hope) it is only the top fabric. He did so well on the way up - in not peeing that is. Poor guy yowled for 2 hours straight followed by hourly meltdowns. On the way home the 2 hours of yowling was only followed by meltdowns every 4 hours or so. :D

Hi calliope, does he always cry during trips? Cats are very territorial so they don't really like leaving their home and traveling (hence the meowing), is it possible to leave him at home next time and have someone stop by a couple times a day to feed him and play with him and just keep an eye on him? if it is I would recommend considering doing that, it doesn't sound like he enjoys traveling very much.

 

As for the smell.. Fabreeze can be a good option if you like the smell. there's a washing vacuum cleaner if you are willing to spend a 100 or so bucks, I know from a friend that it's a great one.