S09.E17: A Reveal to Remember

[Jynnan tonnix]

I guess the thing is that David, whether or not he is gay, seems to be settled in a lifestyle which, at least for the moment, appears to be fulfilling to him.

 

If he is straight, then all this speculation is pretty much ridiculous. If he is gay, then, hopefully whatever path he chooses to follow, whether or not that includes lying to himself, will prove enough that he can live a life of fulfillment, following his conscience.

 

After all, Catholic priests, for example, swear vows of abstinence, which is no more natural than seeking a marital relationship with the gender one is not wired to be receptive to, yet still (aside from those who, sadly, have heavier secrets) manage to sublimate them in favor of a life they feel called to.

 

I would hope that for everyone, they follow a path which works for them and not have to live a lie, but the fact is that just because someone is not choosing to be completely who they are doesn't necessarily mean they are doomed to unhappiness if everything else falls into place.

[cmr2014]

I have known a number of men (I can think of five off the top of my head) who were married and came out as gay mid-life. They all left behind devastated wives, and very confused children. For some reason they all chose to come out when their own sons were about 13 which made it especially difficult for their children.

 

I'm not saying David is gay -- I have no way of knowing. I do know, however, that it is a BIG DEAL when this happens.

 

I find him extremely unlikable -- despite the plastered-on smile. I think he's very tightly wound, and I also think he's very controlling -- watching him force his young son to kiss his newborn sister by physically positioning him made me really uncomfortable. I also don't think he likes his wife very much -- he may love her, but I don't think he likes her at all, and I'm pretty confident that he doesn't respect her either.

[Foghorn Leghorn]

I have known a number of men (I can think of five off the top of my head) who were married and came out as gay mid-life. They all left behind devastated wives, and very confused children. For some reason they all chose to come out when their own sons were about 13 which made it especially difficult for their children.

 

I'm not saying David is gay -- I have no way of knowing. I do know, however, that it is a BIG DEAL when this happens.

 

I find him extremely unlikable -- despite the plastered-on smile. I think he's very tightly wound, and I also think he's very controlling -- watching him force his young son to kiss his newborn sister by physically positioning him made me really uncomfortable. I also don't think he likes his wife very much -- he may love her, but I don't think he likes her at all, and I'm pretty confident that he doesn't respect her either.

 

I had never seen David until this show and he really unnerved me too.  I got a very strong sense of anger behind his completely false smile.  He is hiding behind his faith and is struggling.  He will break at some point.

[Betweenyouandme]

I have known a number of men (I can think of five off the top of my head) who were married and came out as gay mid-life. They all left behind devastated wives, and very confused children. For some reason they all chose to come out when their own sons were about 13 which made it especially difficult for their children.

I'm not saying David is gay -- I have no way of knowing. I do know, however, that it is a BIG DEAL when this happens.

I find him extremely unlikable -- despite the plastered-on smile. I think he's very tightly wound, and I also think he's very controlling -- watching him force his young son to kiss his newborn sister by physically positioning him made me really uncomfortable. I also don't think he likes his wife very much -- he may love her, but I don't think he likes her at all, and I'm pretty confident that he doesn't respect her either.

Yeah, but what can someone do about it beforehand? If the wife has decided to marry him, people can say all they want with the intent to"protect" her. Without having proof, especially, it would be inserting oneself into another's marriage based on a "feeling" of how you think gender and sexuality should work. There's always a chance you'd be right, but some men have done this while neither looking nor acting effeminate. People break up for tons of endless reasons. It's up to the two people getting married whether they think they want to try to make a go of it. It's a daily commitment and people change and realize new things about themselves and their partners all the time.

[Tahitigirl]

Josh and Anna have been married for what 5-6 years now? Can't they sit down like a normal couple and talk about what each of them realistically wants re more kids and then see if they can come to a compromise. Maybe for Josh it's 3 and for Anna it's 8. But then can't they act like all other couples and say -- let's go for one more and see how we feel after that? By making all of these "ooh I can't wait to have more" statements with Josh looking fearful, it seems like they've never talked to each other about it and just have a tacit understanding that they will keep 'trying" whether they are both on board or not. Seems like a bad dynamic 5-6 years into a marriage -- this is the person you're supposed to trust with everything. But I feel like if one or the other were trying to prevent pregnancy here, they'd have to be sneaky about it. In this case it would be Josh -- so maybe he should be sneaking a look at Anna's cycle/chart and conveniently arrange work trips on those days or conveniently have to work late or have a headache. He couldn't go so far as to use a condom as she'd know, but he could always -- withdraw -- not that that's fool proof but it is a way for a man who seems like he just does not want another kid.

I don't think they can "sit down like a normal couple and talk" about this.

Being a latecomer to the 19 Kids show, I've caught a few reruns lately, including the Josh & Anna proposal and wedding. This is what I noticed:

They had very little "in person" contact prior to engagement and marriage.

They were never permitted to be alone or have a private conversation prior to marriage.

And, most critical and downright appalling to me personally, their wedding vows included "allowing God to determine the number of children" they have. The VOWS! How can they even think about bringing up the topic with their spouse when this was already agreed upon in their wedding vows?!

If this was the case for Jill and Derick, it wasn't shown in the episode. And I doubt we'll see any of this in the Ben/Jessa's wedding either. I hope, for their sake, it's because it didn't happen but we'll probably never know.

Michelle and Jim Bob can talk all they want about their children having choices but I think it's clear to all (including the kids) that that's only the case if they outright rebel and leave. With the tight controls over who they date, or even have a conversation with, they are forced to 1) repeat their parents' lives, 2) die unmarried, or 3) be ostracized from the family.

This makes me incredibly sad.

[mbutterfly]

It's been my experience that when God determines something -- as in a path you should be taking -- it isn't necessarily obvious. That is why Christians pray for discernment. Discernment doesn't seem to be factored into their theology. 

[Absolom]

Just a point I think about off and on when people go "it was in their vows," but I have known many a religious person not keep their wedding vows.  There are quite a few divorced fundies so all of those broke their vow to stay married until death.  I see a lot of wiggle room on any vow made under pressure and I'm guessing that Jim Bob and Michelle had a lot of input into Josh and Anna's vows.  Plus since they do believe that God is all powerful, should He wish them to have more children a condom or even birth control pills would not stand in His way. 

[cmr2014]

I believe that the Kellers are also Gothardites, so it makes sense that it was in their vows.

 

I think they would have said anything to just get married and get busy. There is no reason that Josh can't say that God "laid it on his heart" that they should have a smaller family.

[Jynnan tonnix]

It's been my experience that when God determines something -- as in a path you should be taking -- it isn't necessarily obvious. That is why Christians pray for discernment. Discernment doesn't seem to be factored into their theology. 

 

But discernment takes actually using your brain. It's so much easier to have a list of hard-and-fast rules where there's no risk of someone having a differing opinion on a subject.

 

I believe that the Kellers are also Gothardites, so it makes sense that it was in their vows.

 

I think they would have said anything to just get married and get busy. There is no reason that Josh can't say that God "laid it on his heart" that they should have a smaller family.

I suppose that would beg the question of why God didn't just stop sending "blessings" if that was his plan. Going back to the discernment issue, there's really no way of knowing for sure whether what someone feels is a message from God isn't just wishful thinking or common sense.

[mimionthebeach]

...there's really no way of knowing for sure whether what someone feels is a message from God isn't just wishful thinking or common sense.

 

Or just their own choice?

[Jynnan tonnix]

Or just their own choice?

I just figured that most people made their choices from some combination of wishful thinking and common sense. Sometimes one much more so than the other. But, yeah, that's what it all boils down to.

[Sew Sumi]

I believe that the Kellers are also Gothardites, so it makes sense that it was in their vows.

 

I think they would have said anything to just get married and get busy. There is no reason that Josh can't say that God "laid it on his heart" that they should have a smaller family.

Gothard himself attended Davey and Pris' wedding (he's not in the episode, of course, but he's in the You Tube video) as well as the Smuganna nuptials. Both had the "as many children as God allows" bit in their vows.

[GEML]

Yes, Josh is the only one who had a Gothard wedding of the three. Which is different from the more general and more flexible "whatever God gives us" that both Vision Forum of Ben's upbringing, or general quiverful type southern Baptist that Derrick may aspire to.

Josh and Anna also have their livelihoods tied somewhat to their procreation more so than any of the other couples. They can't break away from ANY of their past without jeopardizing their money from the show or Josh's position at the FRC, as alienation from his home groups would immediately make what he brings to the table much less significant as he has no credentials or education. What he has are personal connections.

No wonder he looks ill.

[Darknight]

Gothard himself attended Davey and Pris' wedding (he's not in the episode, of course, but he's in the You Tube video) as well as the Smuganna nuptials. Both had the "as many children as God allows" bit in their vows.

So what if they can't have kids?

[WTFFF]

So what if they can't have kids?

In theory, accept it as God's will and find fulfillment in other areas of life.

 

In reality, have a Michelle-caliber breakdown and move heaven and earth to get a bun in the oven. 

[Sew Sumi]

Yes, Josh is the only one who had a Gothard wedding of the three. Which is different from the more general and more flexible "whatever God gives us" that both Vision Forum of Ben's upbringing, or general quiverful type southern Baptist that Derrick may aspire to.

Josh and Anna also have their livelihoods tied somewhat to their procreation more so than any of the other couples. They can't break away from ANY of their past without jeopardizing their money from the show or Josh's position at the FRC, as alienation from his home groups would immediately make what he brings to the table much less significant as he has no credentials or education. What he has are personal connections.

No wonder he looks ill.

Fierfox crashed as I finished up a comprehensive response to this.

 

Let me summarize by saying that I also worry for Smuganna once the people yanking his puppet strings decide he has nothing left to offer them. The show will probably be over at that point. Then what? Back to AR with his tail between his legs to "run" another car lot?

 

I also worry for Davey (well, actually Prissy and the kids). He used to be Gothard's main lackey; I wonder what he's doing for IBLP now that his hero has left in disgrace (aside from that preposterous "tour" they did pretty much up to Priscilla's delivery). He's a smug, inconsiderate schmuck who will one day piss off the wrong person who has more power in the organization than he. Poor Prissy still doesn't have a fucking clue and keeps trying and trying to be the "perfect wife." Sad, especially given who she's trying to impress.

[cmr2014]

 

Josh and Anna also have their livelihoods tied somewhat to their procreation more so than any of the other couples. They can't break away from ANY of their past without jeopardizing their money from the show or Josh's position at the FRC, as alienation from his home groups would immediately make what he brings to the table much less significant as he has no credentials or education. What he has are personal connections.

 

People mention this a lot, but I don't think it's true. FRC is tied to the idea of heterosexual marriage, but it's not a Gothard organization and I don't think they care how many kids Smuganna have as long as there is no abortion. I think that they hired Josh to reach out to the evangelical community, not specifically the Gothard community, 

 

In that respect, I think having a wildly over-sized family with hurt him with the FRC because it would make him less relatable to other evangelical communities.

 

As far as TLC goes, the only think that will keep them relevant is if they decide to a "Breaking Duggar" thing with Josh going to school, sending the kids to public school, Anna getting a job, etc. "Josh and Anna have Another Baby!" just has no appeal anymore.

 

I think the whole show is winding down. They can probably keep it going through 1-2 more weddings / babies, but there just isn't any story material there. These are dull people living sad lives, I can't believe that even the most sincere leg-humper will hang on through 15 more weddings and 30 more grandchildren.

[NausetGirl]

People mention this a lot, but I don't think it's true. FRC is tied to the idea of heterosexual marriage, but it's not a Gothard organization and I don't think they care how many kids Smuganna have as long as there is no abortion. I think that they hired Josh to reach out to the evangelical community, not specifically the Gothard community, 

 

In that respect, I think having a wildly over-sized family with hurt him with the FRC because it would make him less relatable to other evangelical communities.

 

As far as TLC goes, the only think that will keep them relevant is if they decide to a "Breaking Duggar" thing with Josh going to school, sending the kids to public school, Anna getting a job, etc. "Josh and Anna have Another Baby!" just has no appeal anymore.

 

I think the whole show is winding down. They can probably keep it going through 1-2 more weddings / babies, but there just isn't any story material there. These are dull people living sad lives, I can't believe that even the most sincere leg-humper will hang on through 15 more weddings and 30 more grandchildren.

 

Agree. I think - short of some form of rebellion [a Duggar daughter conceiving out of wedlock, a Duggar daughter eloping with a complete stranger, Jinger and Josiah making a break for it to New York etc etc] or a miracle [Mechelle conceives #20? #21?] - there just isn't much material left here.

[mimionthebeach]

Agree. I think - short of some form of rebellion [a Duggar daughter conceiving out of wedlock, a Duggar daughter eloping with a complete stranger, Jinger and Josiah making a break for it to New York etc etc] or a miracle [Mechelle conceives #20? #21?] - there just isn't much material left here.

OMG! I love the idea of Jinger and Josiah running off to New York! Makes me think of Kurt and Rachael from Glee.

[GEML]

Josh will be fine as long as he doesn't do something drastic. He can almost certainly find a slot here in DC or on a campaign (the latter is grueling work, though). He isn't where he is because of Gothard Only, but because there are DOZENS of groups like Gothard's out there (his sister married into the now defunct Vision Forum) and now his other sister is Southern Baptist.). If each of his siblings married into one group that had a tie into what we know loosely as "quiverful" groups (and many worship in ordinary, mainstream Christian denominations) Josh will always have a place as he will have access no one else will. THAT is what makes his resume unique - not just Gothardism.

And as far as I know, David and Priscilla are fine. Gothard was "removed" but David still works for HQ and the board of directors is still the same (including Gil Bates) at umbrella organization.

Edited December 8, 2014 by GEML