Continuity, Nitpicks, and Science FAILs

[KirkB]

1 hour ago, doram said:

It's tactically easier to kill someone that to catch them alive. Speedsters heal fast but they're not immortal. Barry is not immortal. Jessie also proved that Savitar isn't either. It was Eddie's death that caused the singularity, not Eobard's. 

Overall I agree with you, but here's the problem. To kill Savitar they will have to be able to catch him, or at least keep up with him, and that means another speedster. Wally and Jessie aren't fast or tough enough, and Jay is still stuck in the speed force. That just leaves Barry. But they literally can't use Barry in any plan against Savitar, for obvious reasons.

[johntfs]

1 hour ago, doram said:

It's tactically easier to kill someone that to catch them alive. Speedsters heal fast but they're not immortal. Barry is not immortal. Jessie also proved that Savitar isn't either. It was Eddie's death that caused the singularity, not Eobard's. 

Exactly.  If present day Barry shot himself in the brains and died it destroys Savitar like Eobard was destroyed by Eddie's death.  Which caused the paradox storm.  So, Barry dying would likely cause another paradox storm.

[Karlophe]

3 hours ago, johntfs said:

Exactly.  If present day Barry shot himself in the brains and died it destroys Savitar like Eobard was destroyed by Eddie's death.  Which caused the paradox storm.  So, Barry dying would likely cause another paradox storm.

Agreed. And for my own part, I think outright murder is a terrible idea, at the very least pragmatically, because we don't know anything about him. I can't simply write off Savitar as an empty vessel of a monster; this is still a Barry, somehow twisted to the point that he hates our Barry and wants to cause him suffering and destroy his life and happiness. The why and how matters, in my opinion, because something had to happen to make him that way. Iris's death is the ultimate catalyst, yes, but it goes beyond that. It circles back to how terrible Barry is at coping with loss and grief. His rage, his bitterness, his propensity to drown himself in his emotions...I just feel like if he doesn't take this opportunity to "know" his future self, he'll be doomed to repeat it. Or create it, as the case may be.

[KirkB]

2 hours ago, doram said:

And Jessie Quick single handedly caught up with him and injured him. They can also recruit their superhero buddies including one that is literally the world's strongest and fastest woman that shoots lasers from her eyes.

As I recall, Jessie didn't so much catch up as she ran off and he was standing there waiting for her (probably, because as it turns out, Barry remembered her doing that). She did injure him, though it didn't seem to do much damage. 

2 hours ago, doram said:

They don't need to catch Savitar to kill him. An ice gun and Long range weapons should serve.

I suppose Cisco COULD build another cold gun (or else borrow Snart's since he's not using it anymore) but they'd still have to get close to Savitar to use it. Long range weapons, like a sniper rifle, MIGHT work, though in the past Barry has been shown able to avoid guns, even ones he's not initially aware are being fired at him, though avoiding a bullet or not seems to depend on the writers. And even then it would have to be a headshot and perhaps something more than a normal bullet, since speedsters heal...even though SaviBarry IS scarred, so perhaps there is something else going on there?

Edited May 5, 2017 by KirkB

[Katsullivan]

12 hours ago, johntfs said:

Because right now that method is the only damned thing on the table that they know will work. 

No, that's the only damned thing on the table that they know will fail. History (or the past) has conclusively shown them that Savitar will be trapped and he will get out and he will come after Iris. He's a time-traveller. No matter when they trap him in time, he can always go back to the time he needs to be in to kill Iris.

The fact that they are literally planning to repeat a failed venture is just one of the more ridiculous things about this entire plot. 

 

9 hours ago, johntfs said:

Exactly.  If present day Barry shot himself in the brains and died it destroys Savitar like Eobard was destroyed by Eddie's death.  Which caused the paradox storm.  So, Barry dying would likely cause another paradox storm.

The paradox storm was caused because Eobard was erased from existence so the timeline he created (where Nora died, 'our' timeline) was supposed to have been erased with him. 

If Barry stops Savitar from killing Iris, that would erase Savitar from existence, which would also cause a paradox storm. 

6 hours ago, Karlophe said:

It circles back to how terrible Barry is at coping with loss and grief. His rage, his bitterness, his propensity to drown himself in his emotions...I just feel like if he doesn't take this opportunity to "know" his future self, he'll be doomed to repeat it. Or create it, as the case may be.

Maybe it's just me but I wonder how much of Barry's coping problems are true to his character and how much are just plot-convenient. For someone who watched his mother murdered and his father unjustfully imprisoned for it, he seemed to be a remarkably well-adjusted young man. I remember distinctly him actually schooling Oliver on loss. He had one opportunity to 'fix' that, and he spent a whole day thinking about it, asking everyone and everybody whose opinion he cared for, before he went ahead and did it - with their blessing - and then he changed his mind.... 

Zoom murders his father - gives Barry an opportunity to murder him - and Barry doesn't take it. Even as blinded as he was with rage and pain, he still stuck to his 'no kill' philosophy. 

Suddenly we're supposed to believe that Barry has been nursing an inner Anakin Skywalker all this while? Sorry, I don't buy it. 

Nothing about this storyline makes sense from a narrative or characterisation perspective. And while it's romantic that we're supposed to believe that Iris's murder is the Rubicon that will make Barry go berserk - the fact that he is the one doing the murdering nullifies that. 

[johntfs]

I don't know about the coping with loss, but when given a choice between a loved one and power, Barry chose power.  At the top of the season, Eobard Thawne explained to Barry that his eventual path in the Flashpoint universe would be to lose his memories of his previous life along with his powers.  Now, granted that Wally had gotten hurt and things weren't great for Joe, but Barry's actions seem to indicate that ultimately he couldn't bear to live in a universe where he wasn't the Flash.  So he took a supervillain back in time to re-murder his mother to recreate the universe where he was the Flash.  Sure, there was a little more to it, but that's the essence of what happened at the top of the season.

Perhaps there's some future situation where Barry needs to have the power of Savitar to deal with some awful threat in 2024 or what-have-you so he makes the decision to kill Iris to gain that power.  I'm not sure why he's being such a horrible asshole to his past self, but I can see Barry deciding to kill Iris for the greater good of him getting the power he "needs."  Because he's already done it to his own mother.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I BLAME all of this FUBAR'D of a storyline/Barry's character on Kreisberg and all the HACKS who think they are writers, for having NO FUCKING CLUE WHO Barry Allen is.?????

[Trini]

So someone working at Jitters has a sick, sick sense of humor. Who names a drink after Zoom?? Who murdered people in Jitters?!   

[johntfs]

2 hours ago, doram said:

he exact opposite of this happened.

When Eobard told Barry that he would lose his powers (or lose the memory that he had powers which is implied to be the same thing although it's not), Barry said he was fine with that. He was fine with losing his memories of the other world, and he would help Kid Flash as long as he had powers. 

It was Wally's injury that pushed him to go back in time. He explicitly stated that "everyone is paying a price for my happiness", and that was what drove him to go back, sacrificing both his parents for Wally.

No, that really is what happened.  First off, forgetting that everyone in Flashpoint made choices of their own free wills, not "everyone" was paying the price for Barry's happiness.  Iris seemed pretty happy.  Caitlin seemed at least content as a children's eye doctor and Cisco was pretty stoked to be a billionaire.  Hell even Wally was happy as the Flash.  Joe's life sucked, but after shooting Rival he looked on the verge of turning things around.  Barry had a pretty basic choice at that point.  He could live in Flashpoint as Barry Allen and help those around him as Barry Allen.  He could have spent his time mentoring Wally, helping Joe and fully recreating Team Flash to help Wally before going back to a life of Barry Allen, normal dude and CSI, where he would still be helping people.

Or, he could do what he did, which was time travel again, to change the whole fucking universe again and make sure he could help people as the Flash.  Even at the cost of his mother's life.

Quote

At this point, creating Flashpoint/ "correcting" Flashpoint makes Barry as Evil or as Good as the argument wants him to be. On the one hand, it is an example of how extremely Selfish and capable of Evil Barry was to create Flashpoint. And now, him correcting it is also an example of him being Selfish and Evil. Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. It seems more like the facts are being made to fit the argument, when it should be the other way around. 

It's not about either choice making Barry Selfish or Evil.  Both decisions (to create and to destroy Flashpoint) came from good intentions.  Barry acting to save his mother's life and his father from rotting in jail was a good thing that had consequences, some good, some bad.  Barry choices to accept history as it had been with the pain and loss that came with it was also a good thing that has also had consequences, some good, some bad and some quite a bit worse than bad.

In the end, though, when he had a choice between life as Barry Allen, normalish guy and Barry Allen, the Flash, he chose to be Barry Allen, the Flash.  He chose the being who he felt could best exert influence on the universe in a positive way.  While there isn't really a straight line connecting that choice to him becoming Savitar, there is a kind of precedent connection.  I can see how, with a lot of twists and turns, Barry Allen could, indeed, become Savitar.

[johntfs]

1 hour ago, doram said:

So this theory that Barry chose to kill his mother to keep his powers is 100% false because it's certainly not what the show presented us.

It's exactly what the show presented us. 

If all Barry wanted to do was save Wally he could've run back in time a couple-three hours, bitch-slapped The Rival into next century and saved Wally by preventing The Rival from hurting him in the first place.  But he didn't do that.  Instead, he re-re-wrote the timeline into one that caused him to become The Flash, because he decided that the universe needed him to be The Flash.

[Katsullivan]

Did Barry run back to save Wally or to save everyone who, if I remember correctly, were paying the price for his happiness? I imagined that included Joe "I Needed The Love of Barry Allen to Save My Life" West, and the West "Barry Made Us A Home" family. That would involve running back a bit further than three hours. To say nothing of Eobard's own warning that everytime Barry used his speed, he "lost" his memories. So he basically had one shot to fix everything. 

Barry murdering his mother to hold onto his powers was definitely not the story they were trying to tell so I find it interesting when people put a spin on things that are explicitly stated in canon.

 

7 hours ago, doram said:

It seems more like the facts are being made to fit the argument, when it should be the other way around. 

Basically, a lack of objectivity to further an agenda. In this case, the agenda that justifies the portrayal of a Black woman being murdered by her White lover on "family family" TV. 

[johntfs]

2 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

Did Barry run back to save Wally or to save everyone who, if I remember correctly, were paying the price for his happiness? I imagined that included Joe "I Needed The Love of Barry Allen to Save My Life" West, and the West "Barry Made Us A Home" family. That would involve running back a bit further than three hours. To say nothing of Eobard's own warning that everytime Barry used his speed, he "lost" his memories. So he basically had one shot to fix everything. 

Barry murdering his mother to hold onto his powers was definitely not the story they were trying to tell so I find it interesting when people put a spin on things that are explicitly stated in canon.

As I recall it, pretty much everyone aside from Joe was in a pretty good place.  Also, the person who provided the "love Joe West needed to save his life" and "made the West family a Home" was Barry Allen, regular human being, not Barry Allen, the Flash.  Had Barry Allen stayed in Flashpoint as a regular human being, he could have helped do both of those things again.  Barry has one shot to fix everything only if he believes that it's his Godlike mandate and responsibility to "fix everything."  Which he did.

The thing is that "fix everything" is the job description for God, or at least a god.  How far of a leap is it from taking on the responsibilities of a god to believing one actually is a god? 

Quote

Basically, a lack of objectivity to further an agenda. In this case, the agenda that justifies the portrayal of a Black woman being murdered by her White lover on "family family" TV. 

Nah, I don't buy into that.  Granted that this show regularly shits the bed when it comes to writing women with theirs own goals and agency, but I don't buy racism here.  For one thing, this is one of the only shows I can think of that has moved from a white majority to a person of color majority in its main cast, with Eddie Thawne ultimately being replaced by Wally West (And as you read that last sentence that counter-example of Sleepy Hollow shit-canning Orlando Jones and the lovely, awesome Nicole Beharie might come to your mind.  It sure as shit came to my mind).  Plus there's not one but two interracial romances on this show, Barry/Iris and Wally/Jesse, one of which has a Black man dating a White woman.

Plus Wally and Iris West both started in comics as White characters.  This show could very easily have been mostly White with Cisco as the token PoC ethnic fun guy.  It isn't.

In the meantime, much as I dislike the optics, I'm willing to give the story a chance to surprise me, much as I give a different story that same chance on Legends of Tomorrow.  And I admit to being curious about just exactly what could make any version of Barry Allen so viciously inclinded toward the love of his life and his own past self.

[johntfs]

1 hour ago, doram said:

Iris might have been racebent but the TV! Iris has not been given the same treatment in terms of storyline, development or importance that the comics version had.

Oh, there's definitely discrimination, but it's male vs female as opposed to White vs. PoC, in my opinion  Caitlin and Iris have been treated pretty much the same, which is to say shittily.  Wally's gotten a pretty decent story for a character who is basically "the second banana version" of the main character.  Joe's gotten pretty quality storylines and so has Cisco.  The women?  Not so much.  Iris is stuck in the role of Designated Victim.  Caitlin has had her role as Scientist/Doctor ignored/erased to become the Slutty Sidekick for the Big Bad.  Gypsy has... popped in and out.  And have we even seen Jesse at all after the Grodd storyline?

And first season Sleepy Hollow rocked.  It was balls-out amazing and then it turned to shit and flushed itself down the toilet afterwards.

[Katsullivan]

13 hours ago, johntfs said:

Nah, I don't buy into that.

Privilege summarized in one sentence. 

9 hours ago, johntfs said:

Oh, there's definitely discrimination, but it's male vs female as opposed to White vs. PoC

Because racism is a Special Kind of Evil. 

[johntfs]

7 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

Because racism is a Special Kind of Evil.

Hating/dismissing someone because they look different is about as banal as you can get.  Racism is just a shitty, regular kind of Evil.

[Katsullivan]

On 5/6/2017 at 7:13 PM, johntfs said:

Hating/dismissing someone because they look different is about as banal as you can get.  Racism is just a shitty, regular kind of Evil.

Yet discussions like this are an example of the typical way that people bend over backwards to deny any instance of racism. There's always another "lesser" evil motivating an act of prejudice.

For something so "regular and banal", it's funny how its occurrence is so vehemently protested. 

Edited May 9, 2017 by Katsullivan

[GHScorpiosRule]

I suppose continuing to call Megatron Savitar makes it easier to try and figure out just HOW THE FUCK THIS HAPPENED. I mean really, it should be Barry throws a version of himself into the speed force which then causes himself to become Evil and change his name to Savitar. I just can't wrap my brain around any version or remnant of Barry murdering Iris!?????????

Barry isn't like Lex, from, say Smallville, where the Black Kryptonite split him in two-where one was the Good Lex from seasons one and two, and the other EVUHL!Lex, who was experimenting on meteor freaks at 33.1!???

In show, I'm going to just add the Speed Force for creating this monster because boo hoo, Barry wasn't doing what IT wanted him to, when IT gave him powers. Which is just fucking stupid. Science and weather gave him speed in this world. 

Everytime I think I've reached my limit of rage toward Kreisberg, he provides more reasons to get all ragey.

I still think my idea of having Savitar be a corrupted and power hungry AI should have been the way to go. Making Barry and his actions responsible for every thing that goes wrong, or gets fucked up is way beyond tired and wearisome at this point. It's like NONE of the show runners, writers realize or KNOW that Barry Allen/the Flash, is supposed to be the Hero.????

[phoenics]

On 5/6/2017 at 2:23 AM, johntfs said:

Oh, there's definitely discrimination, but it's male vs female as opposed to White vs. PoC, in my opinion  Caitlin and Iris have been treated pretty much the same, which is to say shittily.  Wally's gotten a pretty decent story for a character who is basically "the second banana version" of the main character.  Joe's gotten pretty quality storylines and so has Cisco.  The women?  Not so much.  Iris is stuck in the role of Designated Victim.  Caitlin has had her role as Scientist/Doctor ignored/erased to become the Slutty Sidekick for the Big Bad.  Gypsy has... popped in and out.  And have we even seen Jesse at all after the Grodd storyline?

And first season Sleepy Hollow rocked.  It was balls-out amazing and then it turned to shit and flushed itself down the toilet afterwards.

This is simply untrue though.  Caitlin got much more screentime in Season 2 than Iris did.  MUCH more.  It was glaring how much Iris was sidelined.  There was actually little need for her to get that much - especially since she's billed AFTER CP's Iris.

I get it that you don't see this as a racial issue - but when you control for gender, Cait still got treated better with screentime, PR and everything else.  Look at the crossover episode in S2 for even more WTF.

[Trini]

... Aaaaand Tracy to the list:

The Who Knows The Flash's "Secret" Identity List

Friends / Associates / Acquaintances / Allies:

• Tracy Brand

-----

Think they can fit in a few more by the end of the season?

[KirkB]

Barry, Barry, Barry. So, let me see. On Arrow, probably the only significant characters who don't know are...what, maybe Nyssa and Slade? Perhaps Constantine and the Human Target? Flash, it's pretty much just Singh at this point isn't it? Even the people on Supergirl know, with the exception of maybe Rhea, Lillian and Lena. Everybody on LoT knows, right?

[helsinkibaby]

This is in no way related to the time travel shenanigans previously being discussed but I just wanted to check/rant - Joe, when talking about his Blues Cruise, said he told Iris that they couldn't eat out for a month because he was saving for her and Barry's college tuition. (Which makes me wonder how much they ate out, but whatever). He then told her he had to do it because Junior Walker was playing. (This is what I want to check, if I heard it right.) 

Because I googled Junior Walker and while he did indeed sing "What Does It Take" he also died of cancer in 1995 - five years before Nora Allen died. 

So did I mishear things, or are the writers hacks? 

[johntfs]

1 hour ago, helsinkibaby said:

So did I mishear things, or are the writers hacks?

Why does it have to be either?  Junior Walker died of cancer in 1995 on our Earth.  Maybe on Joe's Earth he didn't die until 2005 or is still alive.

[Trini]

I vote hacks. ?

-------------------

I'm not 100% sure he has a name to go with the face, but it's confirmed that King Shark knows the "secret".

Addition to The Who Knows The Flash's "Secret" Identity List

Villains:

• King Shark

----

Update to the big List after the finale.

[Trini]

End of season update to the Big List! I didn't think they would add much more after midseason, but boy, was I wrong! Eight more characters found out or knew in the second half. That's twenty (20!) more people for Season 3.

Now that all the spinoffs are connected, I'm guessing only 10 to 12 more characters will learn the "secret" by the end of Season 4.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

NOTES:
• Unconfirmed characters, and groups where there wasn't a clear number are NOT in this count.
• The Flashpoint versions of characters (who don't exist anymore) are NOT in this count.
• Updated the 'alive/dead' status of characters from the other connected shows. The season finale of Arrow left some characters' status uncertain, but until they are confirmed dead next season, they are counted as alive for now.
• Damien Darhk most likely found out in the erased timeline events on Legends of Tomorrow, but his memory was erased, and he is currently dead. He is NOT included in the count.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The Who Knows The Flash's "Secret" Identity List
(** -- indicates multiverse characters)

Family:

• Joe West
• Iris West
• Wally West / Kid Flash
• Henry Allen [dead]
• Nora Allen [dead]

Partners in Crimefighting:

• Cisco Ramon / Vibe
• Caitlin Snow / Killer Frost
• Felicity Smoak / Overwatch
• John Diggle / Spartan
• Lyla Diggle
• **Harrison “Harry” Wells
• **Harrison "HR" Wells [dead]
• Eddie Thawne [dead]

Heroes:

• Oliver Queen / Arrow
• Roy Harper / Arsenal
• Ray Palmer / ATOM
• Mari McCabe / Vixen
• Martin Stein / Firestorm
• Jefferson “Jax” Jackson / Firestorm
• Thea Queen / Speedy
• Kendra Saunders / Priestess Chayara / Hawkgirl
• Carter Hall / Prince Khufu / Hawkman
• Rip Hunter
• Sara Lance / White Canary
• Curtis Holt / Mr. Terrific
• Rory Regan / Ragman
• Rene Ramirez / Wild Dog
• Nate Heywood / Steel
• Amaya Jiwe / Vixen
• **Kara (Zor-El) Danvers / Supergirl
• **Jay Garrick / The Flash
• **Jesse Wells / Jesse Quick
• **J'onn J'onzz / Martian Manhunter
• **Gypsy
• Laurel Lance / Black Canary [dead]
• Ronnie Raymond / Firestorm [dead]

Friends / Associates / Acquaintances / Allies: 

• Hartley Rathaway / Pied Piper
• Linda Park
• Patty Spivot
• Clarissa Stein
• Tina McGee
• Julian Albert / Dr. Alchemy
• Cecile Horton
• Tracy Brand
• ** James Olsen / Guardian
• **Winn Schott
• **Lucy Lane
• **Iris West-Allen
• **Barry Allen
• **Mon-El

Villains:

• General Wade Eiling
• Grodd
• Heatwave / Mick Rory
• The Dominators
• **Music Meister (Yep, putting him in this category)
• **Abra Kadabra
• **King Shark
• Malcolm Merlyn / Dark Archer [dead]
• Reverse Flash / Eobard Thawne [dead]
• Captain Cold / Leonard Snart [dead]
• Girder / Tony Woodward [dead]
• Plastique / Bette Sans Souci [dead]
• Blackout / Farooq Gibran [dead]
• Everyman / Hannibal Bates [dead]
• Vandal Savage [dead]
• **Killer Frost [dead]
• **Death Storm [dead]
• **Reverb [dead]
• **Zoom / Hunter Zolomon [dead; transformed into Black Flash, then killed again]
• Savitar / Barry Allen, time remnant [dead / erased]

Other Random People: 

• That Dude Who Tried to Mug Barry in Season 1, Episode 7
• Several League of Assassins Minions
• Agent Smith (iffy about which category he should be in)

Unconfirmed, but more than likely:
• Quentin Lance
• Tokamak / Henry Hewitt
• Evelyn Sharp / Artemis
• Lily Stein
• Probably the Entire Staff of Iron Heights Prison
• Probably Some People on That Train with Patty Spivot
• Probably Some ARGUS Agents
• Probably Some People in the U.S. Government
• **Probably the Most of the DEO
 

TOTAL: 71 confirmed characters  (52 alive; 19 dead)

[bettername2come]

17 minutes ago, Trini said:

End of season update to the Big List! I didn't think they would add much more after midseason, but boy, was I wrong! Eight more characters found out or knew in the second half. That's twenty (20!) more people for Season 3.

Now that all the spinoffs are connected, I'm guessing only 10 to 12 more characters will learn the "secret" by the end of Season 4.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

NOTES:
• Unconfirmed characters, and groups where there wasn't a clear number are NOT in this count.
• The Flashpoint versions of characters (who don't exist anymore) are NOT in this count.
• Updated the 'alive/dead' status of characters from the other connected shows. The season finale of Arrow left some characters' status uncertain, but until they are confirmed dead next season, they are counted as alive for now.
• Damien Darhk most likely found out in the erased timeline events on Legends of Tomorrow, but his memory was erased, and he is currently dead. He is NOT included in the count.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The Who Knows The Flash's "Secret" Identity List
(** -- indicates multiverse characters)

Family:

• Joe West
• Iris West
• Wally West / Kid Flash
• Henry Allen [dead]
• Nora Allen [dead]

Partners in Crimefighting:

• Cisco Ramon / Vibe
• Caitlin Snow / Killer Frost
• Felicity Smoak / Overwatch
• John Diggle / Spartan
• Lyla Diggle
• **Harrison “Harry” Wells
• **Harrison "HR" Wells [dead]
• Eddie Thawne [dead]

Heroes:

• Oliver Queen / Arrow
• Roy Harper / Arsenal
• Ray Palmer / ATOM
• Mari McCabe / Vixen
• Martin Stein / Firestorm
• Jefferson “Jax” Jackson / Firestorm
• Thea Queen / Speedy
• Kendra Saunders / Priestess Chayara / Hawkgirl
• Carter Hall / Prince Khufu / Hawkman
• Rip Hunter
• Sara Lance / White Canary
• Curtis Holt / Mr. Terrific
• Rory Regan / Ragman
• Rene Ramirez / Wild Dog
• Nate Heywood / Steel
• Amaya Jiwe / Vixen
• **Kara (Zor-El) Danvers / Supergirl
• **Jay Garrick / The Flash
• **Jesse Wells / Jesse Quick
• **J'onn J'onzz / Martian Manhunter
• **Gypsy
• Laurel Lance / Black Canary [dead]
• Ronnie Raymond / Firestorm [dead]

Friends / Associates / Acquaintances / Allies: 

• Hartley Rathaway / Pied Piper
• Linda Park
• Patty Spivot
• Clarissa Stein
• Tina McGee
• Julian Albert / Dr. Alchemy
• Cecile Horton
• Tracy Brand
• ** James Olsen / Guardian
• **Winn Schott
• **Lucy Lane
• **Iris West-Allen
• **Barry Allen
• **Mon-El

Villains:

• General Wade Eiling
• Grodd
• Heatwave / Mick Rory
• The Dominators
• **Music Meister (Yep, putting him in this category)
• **Abra Kadabra
• **King Shark
• Malcolm Merlyn / Dark Archer [dead]
• Reverse Flash / Eobard Thawne [dead]
• Captain Cold / Leonard Snart [dead]
• Girder / Tony Woodward [dead]
• Plastique / Bette Sans Souci [dead]
• Blackout / Farooq Gibran [dead]
• Everyman / Hannibal Bates [dead]
• Vandal Savage [dead]
• **Killer Frost [dead]
• **Death Storm [dead]
• **Reverb [dead]
• **Zoom / Hunter Zolomon [dead; transformed into Black Flash, then killed again]
• Savitar / Barry Allen, time remnant [dead / erased]

Other Random People: 

• That Dude Who Tried to Mug Barry in Season 1, Episode 7
• Several League of Assassins Minions
• Agent Smith (iffy about which category he should be in)

Unconfirmed, but more than likely:
• Quentin Lance
• Tokamak / Henry Hewitt
• Evelyn Sharp / Artemis
• Lily Stein
• Probably the Entire Staff of Iron Heights Prison
• Probably Some People on That Train with Patty Spivot
• Probably Some ARGUS Agents
• Probably Some People in the U.S. Government
• **Probably the Most of the DEO
 

TOTAL: 71 confirmed characters  (52 alive; 19 dead)

Don't forget Cat Grant.

[Trini]

2 hours ago, bettername2come said:

Don't forget Cat Grant.

Wow, can't believe no one (including me) caught this before! Thanks!

[Trini]

End of season update to the Big List! I didn't think they would add much more after midseason, but boy, was I wrong! Eight more characters found out or knew in the second half. That's twenty (20!) more people for Season 3.

Now that all the spinoffs are connected, I'm guessing only 10 to 12 more characters will learn the "secret" by the end of Season 4.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

NOTES:
• Unconfirmed characters, and groups where there wasn't a clear number are NOT in this count.
• The Flashpoint versions of characters (who don't exist anymore) are NOT in this count.
• Updated the 'alive/dead' status of characters from the other connected shows. The season finale of Arrow left some characters' status uncertain, but until they are confirmed dead next season, they are counted as alive for now.
• Damien Darhk most likely found out in the erased timeline events on Legends of Tomorrow, but his memory was erased, and he is currently dead. He is NOT included in the count.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The Who Knows The Flash's "Secret" Identity List
(** -- indicates multiverse characters)

Family:

• Joe West
• Iris West
• Wally West / Kid Flash
• Henry Allen [dead]
• Nora Allen [dead]

Partners in Crimefighting:

• Cisco Ramon / Vibe
• Caitlin Snow / Killer Frost
• Felicity Smoak / Overwatch
• John Diggle / Spartan
• Lyla Diggle
• **Harrison “Harry” Wells
• **Harrison "HR" Wells [dead]
• Eddie Thawne [dead]

Heroes:

• Oliver Queen / Arrow
• Roy Harper / Arsenal
• Ray Palmer / ATOM
• Mari McCabe / Vixen
• Martin Stein / Firestorm
• Jefferson “Jax” Jackson / Firestorm
• Thea Queen / Speedy
• Kendra Saunders / Priestess Chayara / Hawkgirl
• Carter Hall / Prince Khufu / Hawkman
• Rip Hunter
• Sara Lance / White Canary
• Curtis Holt / Mr. Terrific
• Rory Regan / Ragman
• Rene Ramirez / Wild Dog
• Nate Heywood / Steel
• Amaya Jiwe / Vixen
• **Kara (Zor-El) Danvers / Supergirl
• **Jay Garrick / The Flash
• **Jesse Wells / Jesse Quick
• **J'onn J'onzz / Martian Manhunter
• **Gypsy
• Laurel Lance / Black Canary [dead]
• Ronnie Raymond / Firestorm [dead]

Friends / Associates / Acquaintances / Allies: 

• Hartley Rathaway / Pied Piper
• Linda Park
• Patty Spivot
• Clarissa Stein
• Tina McGee
• Julian Albert / Dr. Alchemy
• Cecile Horton
• Tracy Brand
• ** James Olsen / Guardian
• **Winn Schott
• **Lucy Lane
• **Cat Grant
• **Iris West-Allen
• **Barry Allen
• **Mon-El

Villains:

• General Wade Eiling
• Grodd
• Heatwave / Mick Rory
• The Dominators
• **Music Meister (Yep, putting him in this category)
• **Abra Kadabra
• **King Shark
• Malcolm Merlyn / Dark Archer [dead]
• Reverse Flash / Eobard Thawne [dead]
• Captain Cold / Leonard Snart [dead]
• Girder / Tony Woodward [dead]
• Plastique / Bette Sans Souci [dead]
• Blackout / Farooq Gibran [dead]
• Everyman / Hannibal Bates [dead]
• Vandal Savage [dead]
• **Killer Frost [dead]
• **Death Storm [dead]
• **Reverb [dead]
• **Zoom / Hunter Zolomon [dead; transformed into Black Flash, then killed again]
• Savitar / Barry Allen, time remnant [dead / erased]

Other Random People: 

• That Dude Who Tried to Mug Barry in Season 1, Episode 7
• Several League of Assassins Minions
• Agent Smith (iffy about which category he should be in)

Unconfirmed, but more than likely:
• Quentin Lance
• Tokamak / Henry Hewitt
• Artemis / Evelyn Sharp
• Lily Stein
• Probably the Entire Staff of Iron Heights Prison
• Probably Some People on That Train with Patty Spivot
• Probably Some ARGUS Agents
• Probably Some People in the U.S. Government
• **Probably the Most of the DEO

TOTAL: 72 confirmed characters  (53 alive; 19 dead)

Edited June 1, 2017 by Trini

[johntfs]

I'm not sure you can totally confirm Carter Hall/Hawkman.  The first one from the Arrow/Flash Vandal Savage crossover knew but he got killed on LoT.  Another Carter Hall/Hawkman came in from the latter part of the 21st century when Savage conquered the world.  At the least you should note him down twice.

Also, I don't think Captain Cold and Heat Wave really qualify as villains at this point.  They're Legends and not necessarily full-on good two-shoes heroes (and neither is Sara Lance) but I don't see them as villains any more.

[Trini]

::shakes fist at time travel shenanigans::
Thanks for the note about Hawkman; but for simplicity's sake, I'm going to leave it as it is.

Yeah, there are definitely characters who are in gray areas. (And I don't really have a gray area category.) Some I've moved, some I've let stay where they are. I just prefer not to keep moving names around.

[paulvdb]

9 hours ago, Trini said:

Malcolm Merlyn / Dark Archer [dead]

We never saw his body in the Arrow finale so as far as I'm concerned he is not dead.

[bettername2come]

https://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/arrow/images/6/67/Barry_Allen's_driver_license.png/revision/latest?cb=20170510020556

Barry's license appears to have been issued while he was in a coma.

Edited June 14, 2017 by bettername2come

[johntfs]

15 hours ago, bettername2come said:

https://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/arrow/images/6/67/Barry_Allen's_driver_license.png/revision/latest?cb=20170510020556

Barry's license appears to have been issued while he was in a coma.

Presumably everyone wheeled him into the DMV and got it renewed.

[Trini]

Ugh! It looks like there's another overlooked addition to The List.

I was re-watching "The Wrath of Savtar" (3.15), and Savitar acolyte Craig tells the Flash to "move up the wedding" -- Wait, WHAT. Was Savitar spilling Barry's secret identity/relationship status to his followers?!?

I'm not 100% sure this means he knew Barry Allen is The Flash; at the very least he knows that The Flash is engaged. But it still seems a very strong indicator.

-------
Unconfirmed, but more than likely:  

• Savitar Acolyte Craig

[Trini]

Nerdist asks, "Can the Flash Take a Truly Hands-Free Selfie?"
Short answer is 'yes', but the video (6+ minutes) explains with SCIENCE!

Quote

By hands-free I mean no remote, no selfie stick, no hands (duh). Is the Flash fast enough to hold up a camera, hit the button, and before the shutter closes, run around to the other side to ensure that some of the photons hitting the camera’s sensor came from him. It may streak, it may blur, but if Barry was fast enough, it would be awesome. (The CW version of the hero claims this is possible, so let’s get into it.)

In my latest Because Science, we looking to the laws of physics and the speed of light to determine just how fast the fast would need to be to take an undeniably epic selfie. ...

References the scene in episode 1.11.

[Trini]

And we can now add The Thinker and The Mechanic to The List. I was expecting that, though.

[Trini]

But speaking of "secret" identities: Everyone at CCPD must know that Cisco is Vibe, right? (Is he even trying to hide it?) Cisco doesn't really have a mask, and his hair is also fairly distinctive; plus as a civilian he also works with CCPD. Besides that, I imagine the news coverage in Central City would have at least a few photos/videos of Vibe, and then anyone who has also seen Cisco would be able to make the connection.

But then again, Central City seems to be okay with superhero crimefighters/vigilantes in general.

[KirkB]

Nah. Vibe wears glasses. Just ask Clark Kent. Those things are a foolproof disguise. :)

[Trini]

The Who Knows The Flash's "Secret" Identity List Update:

Villains:

• The Thinker
• The Mechanic

Friends / Associates / Acquaintances / Allies: 

• Ralph Dibny

 

5 hours ago, KirkB said:

Nah. Vibe wears glasses. Just ask Clark Kent. Those things are a foolproof disguise. :)

But the hair, KirkB! The Hair!!

[Trini]

So I don't know why they were so specific about the events of the premiere happening 'six months later' from the events of the finale when in 4.04, they mark the day that Barry gets out of the speed force as '10/10/17' -- less than six months after the finale events which happened in the end of May on the show.

[Trini]

Forgot one:

The 'Who Knows The Flash's "Secret" Identity List' Update:

Heroes:

• Breacher / Josh

Villains:

• The Thinker / DeVoe
• The Mechanic

Friends / Associates / Acquaintances / Allies: 

• Ralph Dibny

----

So that's 4 within 4 episodes of this season; and then the big crossover is coming up, so it's going to be like 3-4 more from that.

Edited November 6, 2017 by Trini

[KirkB]

At this point who is left from the other shows, that might be involved with the crossover at least, who doesn't (or may not) already know Barry is the Flash? Quentin, possibly, and Alex? I mean, otherwise the entire cast of Arrow knows. All the Legends know. Kara obviously knows, as do J'onn and Mon-El since they came to Earth-1 during the musical. Quentin had a scene with Barry post-particle accelerator a couple of seasons back but was only vaguely aware he had been hit by something (and guessed it was a bus, not lightning) and Alex wasn't around when Barry was on Earth-38 the first time.

Edited November 12, 2017 by KirkB

[johntfs]

1 hour ago, KirkB said:

Alex wasn't around when Barry was on Earth-38 the first time.

She wasn't physically present during the episode but she's sisters with the superhero who was.  I can easily see Kara going "OMG, Alex, I had the weirdest day.  I met this guy called The Flash, his real name is Barry Allen, and he was from a whole different dimension, anyway-"

[Trini]

3 hours ago, KirkB said:

Quentin, possibly, and Alex?

Yes, and the new Canary on Arrow, and Zari on Legends are the only ones left. (And I guess Sam and Lena from Supergirl, but I doubt those two will join the club.) Quentin and Alex should know by now, but there hasn't been any definite confirmation.

[KirkB]

1 hour ago, johntfs said:

She wasn't physically present during the episode but she's sisters with the superhero who was.  I can easily see Kara going "OMG, Alex, I had the weirdest day.  I met this guy called The Flash, his real name is Barry Allen, and he was from a whole different dimension, anyway-"

Oh, I can absolutely imagine a scene like that myself. But since there has been no mention on Supergirl of Kara (or J'onn and Mon-El for that matter) visiting another Earth I could also see Kara mentioning the Flash and Alex saying "The who now?"

12 minutes ago, Trini said:

Yes, and the new Canary on Arrow, and Zari on Legends are the only ones left. (And I guess Sam and Lena from Supergirl, but I doubt those two will join the club.) Quentin and Alex should know by now, but there hasn't been any definite confirmation.

I wasn't counting Lena or Sam either, but fair enough on Dinah and Zari. I completely forgot about them. So potentially there could be as many as 4 main characters who do NOT know. Still, it's the worst kept secret in the multiverse, Barry.

Edited November 12, 2017 by KirkB

[Trini]

40 minutes ago, KirkB said:

Still, it's the worst kept secret in the multiverse, Barry.

I mean, this has got to be meta commentary, right? :

[paulvdb]

Seriously. I'd add all the people in that bar to the list of people who know that Barry is the Flash, but since Barry was clearly drunk they may have thought it was just some drunk rambling and they don't actually believe that Barry is the Flash.

[bettername2come]

On 11/13/2017 at 4:28 AM, paulvdb said:

Seriously. I'd add all the people in that bar to the list of people who know that Barry is the Flash, but since Barry was clearly drunk they may have thought it was just some drunk rambling and they don't actually believe that Barry is the Flash.

I'd like to think drunks just saying "I'm The Flash!" when they do something remotely fast happens often enough that it's just something people roll with without believing it. 

[legaleagle53]

29 minutes ago, bettername2come said:

I'd like to think drunks just saying "I'm The Flash!" when they do something remotely fast happens often enough that it's just something people roll with without believing it. 

Yeah, it's not as though he'd actually used his powers in front of everyone before shouting "I'M THE FLASH!!!"

[Trini]

Will do the comprehensive list at the end of the year; this is the mid-season update. I'd REALLY like to add all those wedding guests (Captain Singh! ::shakes fist::) from the crossover, but apparently Heatwave wiped everyone's memories with some Waverider technology.

The 'Who Knows The Flash's "Secret" Identity List' Mid-season Update:

Heroes:

• **Breacher / Josh
• Dinah Drake / Black Canary #3
• Zari
• Ray Terrill / The Ray
• **Leo Snart / Citizen Cold
• **General Winn Schott

Villains:

• The Thinker / Clifford DeVoe
• The Mechanic / Marlize DeVoe
• **Dark Arrow / Oliver Queen [dead]
• **Overgirl / Kara Zor-El [dead]

Friends / Associates / Acquaintances / Allies:

• Ralph Dibny
• **Alex Danvers
• Dominic Lance / Brainstorm [dead?]

Other Random People:

• **Various Earth-X Reichsmen Soldiers
• **Various Earth-X Resistance Fighters

Unconfirmed, but more than likely:  
    •    Savitar Acolyte Craig

-------------------------------

So that's 13 more characters (not counting unconfirmed characters and vague groups) just from the first part of the season! I knew there would be a lot from the crossovers, but wow. I'm going to predict 4 more by the end of the season.

[Whodunnit]

That trial has so, so, so many fails. Sigh. This used to be the silly show I'd watch to perk me up, now I find myself ranting at the T.v. I don't think I'll be watching next season.