Continuity, Nitpicks, and Science FAILs

[Trini]

Updates to the next edition of The 'Who Knows The Flash's Secret Identity' list

Earth-2:
Jay Garrick/Flash Zoom/Hunter Zolomon
Killer Frost [dead]

Family/Friends:
Wally West

Friends of Friends, Etc.:
Laurel Lance/Black Canary [dead]
Tina McGee
Hartley Rathaway/Pied Piper [in new category because of time travel foolishness]

Villains/etc:
Capt. Cold/Leonard Snart [dead??]

Unconfirmed, but more than likely:
Quentin Lance

Minus 1, plus 2; and a few more deaths. I'll do the big list after the finale. I may re-title and re-sort a couple categories.

[Trini]

So, why is STAR Labs keeping all those corpses? (Well, besides avoiding having to explain to authorities and families about how those people died.)

Edited May 24, 2016 by Trini
what is with me dropping words today...

[zannej]

I'm wondering about the continuity with the people from Earth2.

First we had Wells saying he would be genetically indistinguishable from his counterpart. Then we had him saying they have a completely different blood type on Earth 2 (although, it could be the equivalent of something on Earth1). Then they were saying they vibrate at a different frequency and leave dead zones-- but the dead zone thing never seemed to happen before that episode. And then we had Black Siren claiming they are mirrors of one another so Cisco should have been left-handed (although, I suspect that was just a bluff to throw him off and wasn't actually true).

Also, the vibrations being disrupted would have affected their entire bodies and not just their ears. So being protected by a headset didn't seem to make sense.

Also, was it the duration of exposure that caused them to pass out? How did they know it wasn't going to rupture their eardrums and/or kill them? Testing on Harry didn't seem all that safe. If it was a duration thing, why did Harry pass out so fast? Or was it just that Barry had to build up enough amplification to knock them all out?

[dusang]

The two things that bother me the most are:

1) the fact that Barry specifically does not have super-strength and yet can pick up adults humans and run with them for huge distances (in fact, when he, Cisco, and Wells go to Earth 2 it appears he just grabs the back of their jackets and runs with them into the time cannon thingy??  Maybe I didn't understand the shot?), and

2) his hair is always perfectly coiffed when he pulls off his cowl.  I know this is clearly a TV thing -- much like people pull off wigs and have fully styled hair underneath or go to sleep in full make-up -- but I still find it absurd.  (Also, I saw a brief snippet of the Cisco webseries where he approached the (empty) suit and made a comment about Barry needing super-deodorant, which somehow makes it worse that they usually ignore the unpleasant realities of Barry's physical exertion.)

[zannej]

3 hours ago, dusang said:

The two things that bother me the most are:

1) the fact that Barry specifically does not have super-strength and yet can pick up adults humans and run with them for huge distances (in fact, when he, Cisco, and Wells go to Earth 2 it appears he just grabs the back of their jackets and runs with them into the time cannon thingy??  Maybe I didn't understand the shot?), and

2) his hair is always perfectly coiffed when he pulls off his cowl.  I know this is clearly a TV thing -- much like people pull off wigs and have fully styled hair underneath or go to sleep in full make-up -- but I still find it absurd.  (Also, I saw a brief snippet of the Cisco webseries where he approached the (empty) suit and made a comment about Barry needing super-deodorant, which somehow makes it worse that they usually ignore the unpleasant realities of Barry's physical exertion.)

The strength thing does bug me sometimes-- although there is a thing where if you keep something moving fast enough, you can lift it even if it is very heavy. I think they did an example with weights or something where so long as they made them spin or do something (I can't remember what) they were able to be lifted.

Now, I think the main problem is that they established that for Barry, everything around him seems to be in slow motion so it wouldn't necessarily make sense for him to be able to lift heavier things in that context. It also doesn't make sense to me that he is able to run such far distances-- and of course, there are times when they have him run around when he doesn't need to. Like, he dodges around after getting the villain(s) attention instead of just zipping in and disarming most of the time. Every once in awhile he takes the second approach, but that mostly seems to happen with lower tier villains.

[KirkB]

Honestly, it all comes down to the speed force. It allows Barry to do things it wouldn't otherwise be possible for him to do. I know it's kind of a cop out but whenever Barry (or any speedster really) does something that makes you ask how, the answer is the speed force.

[dusang]

25 minutes ago, KirkB said:

Honestly, it all comes down to the speed force. It allows Barry to do things it wouldn't otherwise be possible for him to do. I know it's kind of a cop out but whenever Barry (or any speedster really) does something that makes you ask how, the answer is the speed force.

So the Speed Force has replaced "A wizard did it."

[KirkB]

27 minutes ago, dusang said:

So the Speed Force has replaced "A wizard did it."

When it comes to anything having to do with the Flash or his fellow speedsters, yes. Exactly.  :)

[benteen]

On ‎5‎/‎18‎/‎2016 at 0:15 AM, Trini said:

Updates to the next edition of The 'Who Knows The Flash's Secret Identity' list

Earth-2:
Jay Garrick/Flash Zoom/Hunter Zolomon
Killer Frost [dead]

Family/Friends:
Wally West

Friends of Friends, Etc.:
Laurel Lance/Black Canary [dead]
Tina McGee
Hartley Rathaway/Pied Piper [in new category because of time travel foolishness]

Villains/etc:
Capt. Cold/Leonard Snart [dead??]

Unconfirmed, but more than likely:
Quentin Lance

Minus 1, plus 2; and a few more deaths. I'll do the big list after the finale. I may re-title and re-sort a couple categories.

Add Malcolm Merlyn to the villains list as last season Felicity was foolish enough to call him "Barry" right in front of Malcolm on The Flash.

[Trini]

On 5/24/2016 at 4:22 PM, dusang said:

The two things that bother me the most are:

1) the fact that Barry specifically does not have super-strength and yet can pick up adults humans and run with them for huge distances (in fact, when he, Cisco, and Wells go to Earth 2 it appears he just grabs the back of their jackets and runs with them into the time cannon thingy??  Maybe I didn't understand the shot?), and

x

On 5/24/2016 at 8:19 PM, zannej said:

The strength thing does bug me sometimes-- although there is a thing where if you keep something moving fast enough, you can lift it even if it is very heavy. I think they did an example with weights or something where so long as they made them spin or do something (I can't remember what) they were able to be lifted.

Now, I think the main problem is that they established that for Barry, everything around him seems to be in slow motion so it wouldn't necessarily make sense for him to be able to lift heavier things in that context. It also doesn't make sense to me that he is able to run such far distances-- and of course, there are times when they have him run around when he doesn't need to. Like, he dodges around after getting the villain(s) attention instead of just zipping in and disarming most of the time. Every once in awhile he takes the second approach, but that mostly seems to happen with lower tier villains.

Yeah, even if some things can be explained by the use of momentum, I've decided --even if the show hasn't said it-- that Barry must have some degree of super strength; and maybe his super-healing factors in also, when he performs some of these feats.

[Trini]

Oh hey, did you know that Barry Allen is the Flash? But who else knows this?

The Who Knows The Flash's "Secret" Identity List
(** <-- indicates multiverse characters)

Family
Joe West
Iris West
Wally West
Henry Allen [dead]
Nora Allen [dead]

Heroes
Oliver Queen / Arrow
Roy Harper / Arsenal
Ray Palmer / ATOM
Mari McCabe / Vixen
Martin Stein / Firestorm
Jefferson “Jax” Jackson / Firestorm
Thea Queen / Speedy
Kendra Saunders / Priestess Chayara / Hawkgirl
Carter Hall / Prince Khufu / Hawkman [dead]
**Kara Danvers / Supergirl
**Jay Garrick / Flash
Laurel Lance / Black Canary [dead]
Ronnie Raymond / Firestorm [dead]

Partners in Crimefighting
Cisco Ramon / Vibe
Caitlyn Snow
Felicity Smoak / Overwatch
John Diggle / Spartan
Lyla Diggle
**Harrison Wells
Eddie Thawne [dead]

Friends / Associates / Acquaintances / Allies
Hartley Rathaway / Pied Piper *[in new category because of time travel foolishness]
Linda Park
Patty Spivot
Clarissa Stein
Tina McGee
**Cat Grant
**Jimmy James Olsen
**Winn Schott
**Lucy Lane
**Jesse Wells
**Iris West-Allen
**Barry Allen

Villains
Captain Cold / Leonard Snart [dead… for now??]
General Wade Eiling
Grodd
Malcolm Merlyn / Dark Archer
Reverse Flash / Harrison Wells / Eobard Thawne [dead... in one timeline??]
Girder / Tony Woodward [dead] [dead… again]
Plastique / Bette Sans Souci [dead]
Blackout / Farooq Gibran [dead]
Everyman / Hannibal Bates [dead]
Vandal Savage [dead]
**Killer Frost [dead]
**Death Storm [dead]
**Reverb [dead]
**Zoom / Hunter Zolomon [dead? …or transformed into Black Flash]

Other Random People:
That Dude Who Tried to Mug Barry in Season 1, Episode 7
Several League of Assassins Minions

Unconfirmed, but more than likely:
Quentin Lance
Tokamak / Henry Hewitt
Probably the Entire Staff of Iron Heights Prison
Probably Some People on That Train with Patty
**Probably the Most of the DEO

52* people (36 alive and 16 dead)
*(Not counting unconfirmed characters and groups where there wasn't a clear number.)

NOTES:

• The number of people has more than doubled since the end of Season 1. By the end of Season 1, there were 25 (but 5 dead).
• I decided to count Nora as 'dead' for now, despite the cliffhanger. And Reverse Flash, despite time remnants.
• I know that more could go in the 'Heroes' category, but I just decided to put all the costumed characters in one place.
• Sucks to be a bad guy who learns the Flash's identity!
• Maybe 10-15 more by the end of next season? It's hard to guess, especially if they keep opening up new universes.

Edited June 3, 2016 by Trini
Jax Jackson confirmed! Added codenames

[bettername2come]

Jefferson knows. I remember him saying "Barry Allen who?" when he pulled off some heroic act this season.

[Trini]

Ah, thanks! I'll update the post above.

[zannej]

I think it is safe to say that quite a few agents in ARGUS may know.

[tankgirl73]

I've just binge-watched the two seasons having never seen it before. This is probably my favourite thread heh. The continuity question I'm left burning with though... some episode or other in season two, we see Eobard Thawne show up. He talks to Gideon in his hand. And then... we never see him again for the rest of the season? Did I miss something or was this a plot setup that was never followed up on?

[zannej]

21 hours ago, tankgirl73 said:

I've just binge-watched the two seasons having never seen it before. This is probably my favourite thread heh. The continuity question I'm left burning with though... some episode or other in season two, we see Eobard Thawne show up. He talks to Gideon in his hand. And then... we never see him again for the rest of the season? Did I miss something or was this a plot setup that was never followed up on?

Do you mean Eobard never showed up again or do you mean GIDEON?

[Trini]

22 hours ago, tankgirl73 said:

I've just binge-watched the two seasons having never seen it before. This is probably my favourite thread heh. The continuity question I'm left burning with though... some episode or other in season two, we see Eobard Thawne show up. He talks to Gideon in his hand. And then... we never see him again for the rest of the season? Did I miss something or was this a plot setup that was never followed up on?

If you mean Eobard, he was sent back to the future (because somehow him staying was going to erase Cisco) at the end of that episode. I assume we'll see him again at some point.

[tankgirl73]

Okay I remember that -- but in my mind for some reason I was picturing that as Harrison-Thawne rather than Original-Recipe-Eobard. I'll have to re-watch that episode to refresh my memory I guess. Thanks! I guess it's not a nitpick after all, then...

[Trini]

(Just want to get this out before the premiere...)

So many inconsistencies with Zoom/Jay/Hunter:

• If he was Zoom the whole time, the team should have been able to detect evidence of the Speed Force/whatever,
• He was able to change the color of his lightning at will?? Because when he was 'Jay Garrick', his lightning was yellow,
• That one time he was able to open his own portal to Earth-2 because the writers wrote themselves into a corner,
• With how psycho they portrayed Zoom (and then Hunter), I just didn't believe he could pretend to be 'Jay' for so long, or so convincingly. That he supposedly 'loved' Cailtin was unbelievable.
• So speed powers turned serial killer Zolomon into a genius scientist?

And other things, but those really stuck out for me. I just hope the writers learn and the villians are better this season.

[bettername2come]

How come they can throw stuff through the breaches? Didn't they say you needed a speedster to get through?

[Trini]

Oh man, so any continuity issues this season, they can say "Flashpoint did it." ?

[zannej]

Yeah. It's so weird. I wonder how they are going to explain that Eobard didn't appear to get trapped back in time. Which would completely change the events of season 1. Unless somehow that got restored, but I don't know how. I wonder how much Barry told the current version of Eobard about what happened.

[bettername2come]

Hey, didn't they change the name of Barry and Iris's elementary school?

[zannej]

13 hours ago, bettername2come said:

Hey, didn't they change the name of Barry and Iris's elementary school?

I think they did, but they could excuse that as somehow the name of the school changed during Flashpoint?

[Trini]

The Who Knows The Flash's "Secret" Identity List

Addition:
Earth-19, Harrison "HR" Wells

Not counting the Flashpoint versions of characters who don't exist anymore.

I'll update the big list after the crossovers.

[BkWurm1]

On 10/8/2016 at 3:28 AM, zannej said:

I think they did, but they could excuse that as somehow the name of the school changed during Flashpoint?

Just the name of their Elementary is a nitpick for me.  I'm pretty sure PS followed by a number is a thing that only happens on the East coast.  Maybe just in New York City even.

  Most other places name their schools after a city, a person, a place, or a natural feature (like creeks or trees or hills).  In a densely populated city like New York, the PS plus a number makes sense, but no, they don't do that in the real world where Central City would be located (whether that's the West Coast or the midwest - apparently opinion differ)    

[Trini]

Oy -- Looking at the crossover promos/trailers, it seems like the entire casts of Arrow and Legends  will know about the Flash's identity. The list was already getting ridiculous, and the recurring, main villains for this season are probably going to know, too.

[BkWurm1]

So the Arrow noobs get told.  On LoT I think only Nate aka Steel and Vixen wouldnt have already known, but with access to all of time and history, just how much of a secret would it have even been?

Edited November 28, 2016 by BkWurm1

[Trini]

So. Many. Additions.

--------------------------

The Who Knows The Flash's "Secret" Identity List

Heroes
Rip Hunter
Sara Lance / White Canary
Curtis Holt / Mr. Terrific
Rory Regan / Ragman
Rene Ramirez / Wild Dog
Nate Heywood / Steel
Amaya Jiwe / Vixen

Partners in Crimefighting
Agent Smith [iffy about which category he should be in]

Friends / Associates / Acquaintances / Allies
Julian Albert / Dr. Alchemy [iffy about which category he should be in]

Villains
Heatwave / Mick Rory
Savitar / ??
The Dominators

Unconfirmed, but more than likely:
Evelyn Sharp / Artemis

 

+11, not including Dominators and unconfirmed characters
 

Edited December 9, 2016 by Trini

[bettername2come]

Presumably Lily Stein knows, since she was working on her project in STAR Labs with Caitlin and her parents know. Also, I would love to see Barry act like she's been there the whole time and see his memories get changed without knowing it for once.

[Trini]

Finally re-watched the whole crossover, and I'm putting her in the Unconfirmed category:

Unconfirmed, but more than likely:
Lily Stein

---

Will do the Big List before the mid-season premiere. There really shouldn't be much more added to it the rest of the season, since all the new characters know. Maybe a couple of one-off villains?

[Trini]

Come on, Barry! This list is getting too big.

++++++++++++++++++++

NOTES:

• Looks like my prediction about how many more characters would get added to this list was accurate. There are 12 new persons.
• Unconfirmed characters, and groups where there wasn't a clear number are NOT in this count.
• The Flashpoint versions of characters (who don't exist anymore) are NOT in this count.
• I changed my mind, and I’m now counting Reverse Flash among the living characters (since he is recurring and has his own arc on another connected show).
• Good news, everyone! Learning The Flash’s identity hasn’t killed anyone this season… yet.
• Added codenames to a few characters.

++++++++++++++++++++

The Who Knows The Flash's "Secret" Identity List
(** -- indicates multiverse characters) (> -- indicates new addition since the end of Season 2)

Family:
Joe West
Iris West
Wally West / Kid Flash
Henry Allen [dead]
Nora Allen [dead]

Partners in Crimefighting:
Cisco Ramon / Vibe
Caitlin Snow / Killer Frost
Felicity Smoak / Overwatch
John Diggle / Spartan
Lyla Diggle
**Harrison “Harry” Wells
> **Harrison "HR" Wells
Eddie Thawne [dead]

Heroes:
Oliver Queen / Arrow
Roy Harper / Arsenal
Ray Palmer / ATOM
Mari McCabe / Vixen
Martin Stein / Firestorm
Jefferson “Jax” Jackson / Firestorm
Thea Queen / Speedy
Kendra Saunders / Priestess Chayara / Hawkgirl
Carter Hall / Prince Khufu / Hawkman
> Rip Hunter
> Sara Lance / White Canary
> Curtis Holt / Mr. Terrific
> Rory Regan / Ragman
> Rene Ramirez / Wild Dog
> Nate Heywood / Steel
> Amaya Jiwe / Vixen
**Kara (Zor-El) Danvers / Supergirl
**Jay Garrick / The Flash
Laurel Lance / Black Canary [dead]
Ronnie Raymond / Firestorm [dead]

Friends / Associates / Acquaintances / Allies:
Hartley Rathaway / Pied Piper
Linda Park
Patty Spivot
Clarissa Stein
Tina McGee
> Julian Albert / Dr. Alchemy [iffy about category he should be in]
**Jimmy James Olsen / Guardian
**Winn Schott
**Lucy Lane
**Jesse Wells / Jesse Quick
**Iris West-Allen
**Barry Allen

Villains:
General Wade Eiling
Grodd
Malcolm Merlyn / Dark Archer
> Heatwave / Mick Rory
> Savitar / ??
> The Dominators
Reverse Flash / Eobard Thawne [dead... in one timeline]
Captain Cold / Leonard Snart [dead]
Girder / Tony Woodward [dead]
Plastique / Bette Sans Souci [dead]
Blackout / Farooq Gibran [dead]
Everyman / Hannibal Bates [dead]
Vandal Savage [dead]
**Killer Frost [dead]
**Death Storm [dead]
**Reverb [dead]
**Zoom / Hunter Zolomon [dead? …or transformed into Black Flash]

Other Random People:
That Dude Who Tried to Mug Barry in Season 1, Episode 7
Several League of Assassins Minions
> Agent Smith [iffy about which category he should be in]

Unconfirmed, but more than likely:
Quentin Lance
Tokamak / Henry Hewitt
> Evelyn Sharp / Artemis
> Lily Stein
Probably the Entire Staff of Iron Heights Prison
Probably Some People on That Train with Patty Spivot
Probably Some ARGUS Agents
> Probably Some People in the U.S. Government
**Probably the Most of the DEO

TOTAL: 64 persons (49 alive, plus 15 dead)

Edited January 18, 2017 by Trini

[Trini]

So "Attack on Central City" confirms that Gypsy knows The Flash's "secret" identity.

Friends / Associates / Acquaintances / Allies:
**Gypsy

[Argenta]

Trini, at this point I think it might be less work for you to make a list of the people who DON'T know Barry is The Flash...

Edited March 4, 2017 by Argenta

[KirkB]

Isn't Lisa Snart about the only relevant character who doesn't know?

[Trini]

43 minutes ago, KirkB said:

Isn't Lisa Snart about the only relevant character who doesn't know?

And Quentin Lance, and Captain Singh -- although I think Singh is pretending not to know. And Cecile, if they plan on keeping her around.

____________________
And after this crossover with Supergirl, there'll be at least two more names to the list.

[KirkB]

I wasn't actually thinking about Singh, but for some reason I thought Quentin knew.

[Trini]

He should know by now, but I like to have concrete confirmation -- like an actual line of dialogue to point back to.

[bettername2come]

Quentin definitely knows Barry is involved in Oliver's operations, but it's unclear if he knows he's The Flash. 

[zannej]

On 3/5/2017 at 3:27 PM, Trini said:

And Quentin Lance, and Captain Singh -- although I think Singh is pretending not to know. And Cecile, if they plan on keeping her around.

____________________
And after this crossover with Supergirl, there'll be at least two more names to the list.

I suspect that Quintin does know that Barry is the Flash but am not certain.

I also agree on Singh. I think he figured out that Barry is the Flash but doesn't want to admit it, so he just carries on like he doesn't know.

[KirkB]

On Supergirl, Barry's identity as the Flash is already known (for certain) by Kara, obviously, Winn, James, Cat and Lucy Lane. Alex and J'onn weren't around at the time so it's a question of whether Kara told them.

[millennium]

In at least two episodes this season, Barry refers to either himself or others as "being a dick."   

Call me old-fashioned, but it's language unbecoming a superhero.

Culture's slide into the gutter is swift and apparently unstoppable.

Edited March 18, 2017 by millennium

[legaleagle53]

On 3/18/2017 at 9:34 AM, millennium said:

In at least two episodes this season, Barry refers to either himself or others as "being a dick."   

Call me old-fashioned, but it's language unbecoming a superhero.

Culture's slide into the gutter is swift and apparently unstoppable.

On the other hand, if the condom shoe fits... .

[Trini]

More people who know The Flash's "secret identity" after the musical crossover:

Heroes:
**J'onn J'onzz / Martian Manhunter

Friends / Associates / Acquaintances / Allies:
**Mon-El

Villains:
**Music Meister (Yep, putting him in this category.)
 

[Trini]

Aaaannd... one more:

Villains:
**Abra Kadabra

[Trini]

Another addition to The Who Knows The Flash's "Secret" Identity List

Friends / Associates / Acquaintances / Allies:
Cecile Horton

-----

And I suspect Tracy Brand will know soon enough (if she doesn't know already).

[KirkB]

1 hour ago, Trini said:

And I suspect Tracy Brand will know soon enough (if she doesn't know already).

I'd be a bit stunned if HR didn't blurt it out before Barry has a chance to tell her himself.

[Katsullivan]

Here's a question that no one seems to be able to answer or even consider:

Why would Barry want Savitar trapped in a Speed Force prison when he already knows that Savitar escapes from that Prison, goes back in time, and murders Iris?

He literally already knows that this method is going to fail. Shouldn't he be thinking of doing something - anything - else???

[johntfs]

On 5/3/2017 at 10:33 AM, Katsullivan said:

Here's a question that no one seems to be able to answer or even consider:

Why would Barry want Savitar trapped in a Speed Force prison when he already knows that Savitar escapes from that Prison, goes back in time, and murders Iris?

He literally already knows that this method is going to fail. Shouldn't he be thinking of doing something - anything - else???

Because right now that method is the only damned thing on the table that they know will work.  Superspeed is the ultimate power in the Flashverse (which includes Arrow, Flash and LoT) and Savitar is the ultimate speedster.  There's nothing else they have that can defeat him.  After he kills Iris, Savitar hangs around for another four years before they find the way to trap him.  Presumably the idea is that the trap him before he kills Iris with the idea that when he escapes that prison, he'll still get trapped before he kills Iris.  Hopefully if they trap him before he kills Iris, at worst he's still stuck in the Speed Force because if he leaves it, he ceases to have ever existed as Savitar, anyway.

[johntfs]

16 minutes ago, doram said:

Killing him would work. 

You've still got the question of how to do it.  It's not exactly easy to kill any speedster, much less the super-powerful ultimate speedster.  Barry could kill himself, but the last time something like that happened it broke the multiverse a little bit and killed Robbie.

Although, Legends of Tomorrow has a pretty good answer from their episode, "Moonshot"

Edited May 5, 2017 by johntfs