S02.E04: The Lamb and the Slaughter

[Rhondinella]

NOTE: Reign airs on Wednesdays in Canada, meaning that the episodes are very often viewed a day before they have aired in the US. Therefore please be aware that this thread will almost definitely have spoilers for those who wish to wait until Thursday night to view the new episode.

 

From TV Guide:

Quote

A shepherd's attack is investigated by Bash and Condé. Meanwhile, Mary reexamines her complex bond with Lola; Greer focuses on her future; and Lola's suspicions are aroused when Lord Narcisse presents his new bride.

 

 

[dirtypop90]

This show refuses to correct its pacing issue. The audience finds out Mary is pregnant in the same episode she loses it. why? And of course they will fail to deal with the emotional impact of a miscarriage. Mary and Francis will probably be over it next ep.

 

So none of the ladies waited until marriage to lose their virtue. Surprised by Greer/Castlreoy but a girl has to do what she has to. I'm just betting Castlroy is going to turn evil.

 

I'm intrigued by Narcisse/Lola

 

Toby and Adelaide were phenomenal this episode. 

 

I wish they would stop forcing Conde, Bash 2.0 down our throats. Why would mary tell him something so personal when she just met the guy? I was only interested in Conde because of RL Conde's actions. I'm not looking forward to what appears to be another poor love triangle. I don't get why the writers have taken this route with this character.

 

This show was a lot better when it was light campy fun. I predict a ratings drop between this episode and the next.

Edited October 23, 2014 by dirtypop90

[PinkRibbons]

Okay, so Adelaide Kane has finally impressed me! I thought she was fantastic this episode, and Toby turned in his usual excellence.

 

What I find funny is that when you look at Lola and Mary, the two of them are extremely similar. If the situation was reversed -- Lola the queen, Mary the knocked-up lady in waiting, I don't think the results would be any different at all. I think Lola would be understanding and patient and Mary would be nervous about how calm Lola was being.

 

Words cannot express how much I LOVE the idea of Narcisse being a bad bad man but a good husband. That right there is how you give a character depth. And I was seeing the chemistry there with Lola too, maybe if they get married she can reign in his more evil tendencies. I like how the show isn't staying away from couples with huge age discrepancies when it was actually common for noble women at the time to marry men much older. I appreciate that the show isn't trying to cater to its modern audience in that: they don't go out of their way to make Castleroy seem like a gross old man, because he really is a decent guy and this is a decent match.

 

Greer continues to be one of my very favorite characters. Her speech about why she won't marry Leith was so mature and well thought-out. I feel like media lately (especially on the CW) is always pushing for us to root for the handsome young man no matter what he's done. Leith hasn't been the worst person, but that speech he gave to Greer at the end of last season was a red flag and she realized it. The kid is ambitious and if Greer doesn't care for that, she should be allowed to move on. That being said I fully expect Castleroy to die soon after marriage to pave the way for a very rich widowed Greer to marry Leith. I'll miss Castleroy though, especially if they keep his character the same.

 

It's funny, but yesterday I suddenly felt in the mood to watch The Tudors, the Catherine Howard episodes specifically (Torrance is so creepy as Culpeper ugh). I've also been watching medieval documentaries on youtube. As far as marriage goes, both parties agreeing to be married made them as good as married in the eyes of the church (Catherine Howard really did seem to have agreed to marry Francis Dereham, and while Henry probably could have made that go away if he wanted, that "precontract" was sound legal basis for divorce). Technically Greer and Castleroy aren't doing anything wrong, even if they haven't had a ceremony yet.

 

I wonder if the show is going to go into why Mary had her miscarriage, if there is a cause other than sadly it can happen for no apparent reason. The scene when she and Lola are drinking together made me wonder. To a modern audience maybe they were trying to imply that the alcohol intake caused it? Earlier in the episode when the girls were toasting with champagne, Mary didn't seem to have drank any because Kenna distracted her. But then again, in moderation drinking some alcohol during pregnancy isn't theoretically the worst that can be done. In any case I don't believe the connection between alcohol and harm to fetuses had been concretely identified yet in this time period, although I'm sure pregnant women probably didn't over do it, especially when they were so concerned about the health of the child. I'm kind of surprised Catherine wasn't all "You can't have sex while she's pregnant!" at the couple since that was also a theory at the time.

 

But another thing about the drinking scene that's needling me is that the bottle they were using looked to me a lot like something out of the chest of medicines and food Catherine gave Mary at the beginning of the episode. I really hope it's not true, but if Catherine is convinced that Francis will die no matter what she does, her pragmatic side would possibly go as far as to poison Mary into miscarrying. I think the only way they would know is if Lola too starts having cramps heavy bleeding out of nowhere (especially if she's still nursing, which usually suppresses periods for a while.)

 

I hope that's not true, because messing with a pregnant woman seems far even for Catherine, motherly as she is. The scene when Mary starts miscarrying I was practically shouting at Conde, "go get Catherine you idiot, go get Catherine!" Because without Nostradamus, Catherine may have been the only one around who had some remedy on her that could have slowed the miscarriage and saved the baby. In any case another woman should have been there (midwife or even just another lady that had miscarried before), and without one leaving Mary to miscarry alone was incredibly reckless; Mary could have died. Even if Catherine is untrustworthy Conde would be nearby to witness, and Catherine could have kept the secret from Francis until after the christening. When the chances of saving the pregnancy were low, they may as well have tried what they could.

 

Speaking of Catherine, I'm intrigued by those two little girls because I wonder if they're meant to be the manifestations of the twins from Catherine's final birth; twin girls who both died in infancy. The birth almost killed Catherine as well. Obviously the girls are way too old, but creepy little girls are far more interesting then creepy newborns who can't really do anything. It would explain why Catherine didn't quite recognize them.

 

On a lighter note I love that they used the instrumental version of The Lumineers "Stubborn Love" for a dancing scene. It's kind of obvious but I really like them doing that occasionally instead of using just the whole original modern song for score. I was tickled when they danced to Lorde's "Royals" at Lola's wedding last season too.

[dirtypop90]

Ya know I didn't even thinking about Catherine giving Mary something to cause the miscarriage. She also brought food in when she walked in on Mary and Francis (a hilarious scene btw). She could have put something in that piece of food she offered Mary. I don't think they would go there with Catherine though.

 

I really disliked the whole way they handled the miscarriage. Totally unbelievable that Conde wouldn't get help and that Mary would be at the baby's christening shortly after.

[HunterHunted]

I immediately thought of Catherine when Mary miscarried. Catherine is a poisoner. However, it is much more likely that it was spontaneous. Adelaide was fantastic because I really felt for Mary. And I never feel for Mary because she's an imperious idiot.

[missbonnie]

See, I have that same awful feeling about Catherine causing the miscarriage given her conversation with Narcisse last week. I hope that I'm wrong because if she did indeed make it happen, I will never be able to enjoy her character again.

[Featherhat]

I had to laugh at the Christening celebration planning scenes. With bringing us up to speed on Francis's legit siblings we don't see and Catherine's descriptive and not (entirely) perjorative use of the word "bastard" "whom she is becoming very fond of" etc. She's not necessarily wrong that if you want the court to honour your illegitimate son as much as they can without sliding over into possible legitimacy/usurper territory then full on public acknowledgement is the way to go, especially as his wife is desperately trying to be ok with it and not actively potting against Lola or her son unlike some real life Queens.  And I liked Lola's frustration with being assumed to be a (powerful) mistress with the King's ear and how she used it as a bargaining chip anyway. IRL many kings too mistresses from their Queen's ladies in waiting so its understandable a lot of people might assume that. I feel like we've gone over Lola's guilt with this a couple of times but little mention is made of the aact that Mary started a process to try and usurp Francis and marry Bash, which is why the baby came to happen anyway. Everyone was wrong in that horrible clusterfuck. The ( nearly-ex) Dauphine was literally hiding out in a Paris Garret because his betrothed believed she had to destroy his life to save it.   

 

I don't think Catherine caused the miscarriage. It's possible but I thought her joy was slightly strange but genuine. After it secures her hold on power as well. Having urine and bed linin  checked and personal spies follow a Royal Womb to be the first to know when they got pregnant was standard practice for power players. And as she said it (to their minds) strengthens Mary's claim on the English throne.

 

Leith, go away, you lost me at that nasty "nice guy" speech last season and you haven't improved too much. I'm very glad Greer and Castelroy actually talked to each other instead of him sulking for episodes on end and it was a hot scene. If he dies so that Greer is a rich woman with means who can settle her sisters and semi honourably marry a King's favourite, I won't be happy.

[Lillybee]

I loved Craig Parker as Narcisse, he can play villians with the best. His Darken Raul in the show Legend of the Seeker was chilling.

Re Mary drinking while pregnant, beer and wine were a lot safer than drinking water.

[BooBear]

. I'm very glad Greer and Castelroy actually talked to each other instead of him sulking for episodes on end and it was a hot scene. If he dies so that Greer is a rich woman with means who can settle her sisters and semi honourably marry a King's favourite, I won't be happy.

 

Maybe I have missed 1/2 this plot line but I am lost. It is Castelroy that lost me here. A very pretty younger girl is willing to give up her true love and marry your old arse... and you kick her to the curb because she doesn't love you? Dude, the chances of finding what you are looking for are pretty slim and you could end up with a woman who was much more sneaky than Greer. He kicks her to the curb knowing what it would do to her and her family because... she doesn't love him? Who is the jerk now.

 

Though, I don't know what they are doing with Leith. I think he should go back into the military for a bit until things unfold with Greer.

[lark37]

 

No, I don't think Catherine caused the miscarriage. It was clearly brought about from the wine drinking.

 

There is no concrete eveidence that drinking alcohol while pregnant causes miscarriages or birth defects.  Lots of women have a drink or two before realizing they are pregnant with no harmful results.  Mary had a miscarriage because . . . Mary, Queen of Scots, did not have any children by Francis.  I knew as soon as Mary said she was pregnant that she would lose the child somehow.  While they mess around quite a bit with history, I was pretty sure they wouldn't change that fact because Mary's first child, James, by her next husband, succeeded Queen Elizabeth I and became King James I of England. If she'd had a child first by the King of France, it would have changed not only the history of Scotland and England, but also the history of France.  

 

I think I'm done with this show.  I was intrigued by it last season as I love historical fiction.  But, they boxed themselves into a corner. They can only do so many things with the storyline without as I said above, changing history.  Therefore, they are having to focus too much on fictional characters like Mary's ladies in waiting and their love lives.  They probably should have set the series in the same time period but in a fictional kingdom (like GOT) so that they could do whatever they wanted with Francis and Mary and not had to adhere to the real characters and their history. Hope all of you enjoy watching it though!  I'll just stop in here once in awhile to get updated :)

[TheGourmez]

For this show, I am perfectly fine with history being changed. C'mon, they have banquets with the Lumineers playing! Still enjoying it far more than I have any right to.

[Eolivet]

I loved Mary so hard in this episode. I really, really liked her going at Lola in the first scene: "Yeah I know your life sucks and you're feeling trapped. Cry me a river, would you? You're in this fix because you broke the Chicks Before Dicks rule."

 

Mary is generally my favorite, but I'm feeling unusually protective over Lola lately. It occurs to me that Francis did the same thing she did, and his life did not change one iota. He came back to court. He still married Mary. He still became King. Any heirs he would have with Mary will eventually become King.

 

Lola's life was forever altered. She went from an eligible, titled Lady to "mother of the King's bastard" or "the King's mistress." Her pick of suitors has narrowed tremendously, her hope at a normal life has been taken away. Unlike Mary, (as far as she knows) she won't get to marry a rich, titled nice man of her choosing and have a family of her own. Her fate is now tied to that of her son.

 

Lola was absolutely right: Mary would resent her, especially since Lola has a son -- Francis' son -- and Mary has been unable to conceive. I think Mary has been gracious and kind and loving to Lola, but I don't blame Lola for waiting for the other shoe to drop. While Mary may be jealous of Lola, Lola is also jealous of Mary -- not because she wants Francis, but because Mary has the life (rich, titled husband + potential legitimate children) that Lola should have had for herself, and now can only have, with limitations.

 

I think the show is doing a great job of showing how both Lola and Francis made a choice: but whereas Lola's choice altered the course of her life forever, Francis' choice didn't change the course of his life at all.

[PinkRibbons]

I'm honestly still annoyed they had Francis claim the baby instead of being named Godparent along with Mary. They keep comparing the situation to Bash's, but in that case Diane and Henry had been together for years and every single person at court knew who the baby's father was. Lola and the other ladies worked hard to establish legitimacy for her baby; she could have been a respectable widow with a child who returned to court to serve the queen because her husband had died and left her nothing except his title. Her marriage prospects would be fine; presumably she still has her own funds from her family and also as Mary's Lady she has a relatively high position in court. Francis could have spent a lot of time with the kid under the guise of Godfather and yeah maybe it would hurt that the kid wouldn't know that Francis was his father instead of Julian, but is that really worth ruining Lola's life, endangering the throne (bastards are a liability, as we learned all too well last season) and embarrassing Mary (which, btw, has international implications because now the whole of Europe will think she can't have children. In history most likely it was a deficiency on Francis's part and I think everyone knew it, which is probably why she was such an eligible remarriage prospect after Francis died)?

[Arynm]

I wonder if Lola and Narcisse will get together. I saw a little chemistry there, talking over the body of his 4th dead wife. He is quite the catch

[Featherhat]

I think it’s a horrible situation for any of them to be in and they all played a part. Mary herself was for insane plot machinations with Bash when this happened. Yes it was to “save” Francis from a prophecy but the fact of the matter is she and his bastard brother usurped him briefly, leaving him hiding in a Paris garret where he had the opportunity to seek comfort with Lola, and he knew she was one of his ex fiancée’s LIW. Lola knew he was her Queen and friend’s ex fiancé and that Mary probably still loved him but sought a moment of comfort in his arms anyway, and it’s ruined her current life the most out of the three of them.

 

No one is blinking that a King has a bastard on a noble woman or blaming him or ruining her. In fact it proves he’s fertile and that the “problem” if the can’t conceive is Mary. It’s horrible and humiliating for Mary, especially if she can’t conceive again or keep a pregnancy but as a Queen Regnant she still has more power in her life than Lola does right now.

 

Lola has all the bad points of having a King’s bastard and none of the benefits right now like having the love of a King or having his ear and becoming powerful like Diane was. And if she manoeuvres for her son at all or is seen as trying to, life becomes very dangerous.

 

but if his offer wasn't on the table, then Leith would be a very attractive suitor. And the 'scandal' of Greer making out with a kitchen boy would be a completely different story now that Leith was a member of the elite and her husband to boot.

 

I thought that Greer specifically told Leith that whilst it was great wealth to him it wasn't enough to provide for her entire family as she needed. And King's favourite can be a precarious position as Francis could take it away as easily as he granted it, whilst Castleroy has a more secure position. 

Edited October 30, 2014 by Featherhat