Romance In HTGAWM: Law & Ardor

[DollEyes]

  Like L.A. Law, Ally McBeal, The Practice and Boston Legal before it, HTGAWM proves that what happens in the bedroom can be just as important  as what happens in the courtroom. Case in point: Annalise, who's married to Sam, who has cheated on her before, possibly with her assistant Bonnie and definitely with Lila Stansfield, the former student/ murder victim whom Sam had apparently been sexting, if the picture on her phone is any indication. In the first episode, Annalise put Nate Fahey, the married detective who's also her lover, on the witness stand, which caused Nate to retaliate by lying to Annalise about Sam's whereabouts on the night of Lila's murder, which could lead to tragic consequences for himself and Annalise, among others.

 

  Annalise's students also have their own problems where their love lives are concerned. First, there's Wes, the seemingly naïve guy who's getting close to his neighbor Rebecca, the bitchy bartender who's a suspect in Lila's murder-and who also had the phone with the aforementioned picture of Sam's junk.Then there's Connor, the gay man who's in an open relationship with IT guy Oliver, until his fling with Pax, a young assistant to an owner of a brokerage firm, lead to tragic consequences. Next, Michaela, who's engaged to Aiden, who had a fling in boarding school with Connor, which Connor was delighted to tell Michaela about, outing Aiden in the process. Then there's Laurel, the bleeding-heart crusader who's caught the eye of Frank, Annalise's other associate. As for Asher, the rich frat boy, he's all about the booty calls-if he actually gets any, that is.

 

  Whether it's hook-ups, break-ups or make-ups, discuss all the show's love matches here.

[wanderingstar]

I love the title of this thread!

 

I don't yet ship anyone on this show, though I do admit that Connor's hookups have been HOT!

[Dejana]

Most intrigued by the Annalise/Wes interactions, can't wait to see where it goes.

[teezy]

  Like L.A. Law, Ally McBeal, The Practice and Boston Legal before it, HTGAWM proves that what happens in the bedroom can be just as important  as what happens in the courtroom. Case in point: Annalise, who's married to Sam, who has cheated on her before, possibly with her assistant Bonnie and definitely with Lila Stansfield, the former student/ murder victim whom Sam had apparently been sexting, if the picture on her phone is any indication. In the first episode, Annalise put Nate Fahey, the married detective who's also her lover, on the witness stand, which caused Nate to retaliate by lying to Annalise about Sam's whereabouts on the night of Lila's murder, which could lead to tragic consequences for himself and Annalise, among others.

 

  Annalise's students also have their own problems where their love lives are concerned. First, there's Wes, the seemingly naïve guy who's getting close to his neighbor Rebecca, the bitchy bartender who's a suspect in Lila's murder-and who also had the phone with the aforementioned picture of Sam's junk.Then there's Connor, the gay man who's in an open relationship with IT guy Oliver, until his fling with Pax, a young assistant to an owner of a brokerage firm, lead to tragic consequences. Next, Michaela, who's engaged to Aiden, who had a fling in boarding school with Connor, which Connor was delighted to tell Michaela about, outing Aiden in the process. Then there's Laurel, the bleeding-heart crusader who's caught the eye of Frank, Annalise's other associate. As for Asher, the rich frat boy, he's all about the booty calls-if he actually gets any, that is.

 

  Whether it's hook-ups, break-ups or make-ups, discuss all the show's love matches here.

As controversial as this is I think Aiden is a closet case

 

 

I know people love to use this line but i always find it funny guys like him are the same type of guys who will be caught on craigslist in the male for male section crusing for men. Guys like him are the type of guys gay guys brag about when they tell their friends the slept with a "straight" man and i really thought it was ridculous people thought michaela over reacted especially seen how alot of real life relationship with closet case bisexual/gauy men and straight women turn out nad it aint pretty. She had a right to be upset in the real world i know very few black women who are looking to date men who have had sexual experiences with other men and that their right. Especially seen as he  kept it a secert to be hidden. 

 

As far as the other romance rebecca and wes is one of the worst written couples in hsitory like they have absolutely no chemistry at all and i don't see what wes see's in Rebecca

[wanderingstar]

After the winter finale, I am sorta shipping Annalise & Nate. Yea, I know.

[Dejana]

I love that Annalise has her ex-girlfriend defending her ex-boyfriend for murdering her husband! This show...

 

The camera definitely lingered on Wes (at the beginning) and Annalise (at the end) during the part of the voiceover that mentioned lovers. Perhaps a fake out, but with the dancing and her continued protectiveness, it feels like the show is headed in that direction. Or maybe she'll really turn out to be his birth mother. Maybe the story will go full Oedipal, for the OMGs!

Edited September 27, 2015 by Dejana

[dirtypop90]

I'm not feeling laurel/frank but I'm sure they are sticking to them. conrad/oliver and bonnie/asher are ok. annalise and all her relationships are f'd up and I would have it no other way. viola and femke had A+ chemistry from their first scene. don't think it is wes who shot anna, based on the canadian preview for ep 2.02 you can see that all of the students were there that night.

 

I don't know why they won't give wes and michaela a try. they're the only two unattached member of the keating 5. both good looking and what I've seen of the actors in interviews they have chemistry. But I can see them being afraid of hooking the two attractive black kids though. But I think it would be better than seeing desperate Michaela and pathetic wes trying to find rebecca, which it looks like we will be getting. I would also like this because I like michaela's character but feel they don't give her much to do. But having her get involved with Wes would put her more in the thick of things.

Edited September 26, 2015 by dirtypop90

[wanderingstar]

I'm with you, dirtypop90; I want to see Wes and Michaela paired up.

Edited September 27, 2015 by Gillian Rosh

[CabotCove]

I'm not feeling laurel/frank but I'm sure they are sticking to them. conrad/oliver and bonnie/asher are ok

 

 

 I find LaureI and Frank scenes interesting, the relationship could have been unequal, yet I feel there is a mutual respect that makes it work. I like the actor chemistry too. I feel like Bonnie is just using Asher and that he deserves so much better and we dont really need two teacher/student relationship do we (No to you too Wes/Annalise). Conrad? that the full name? him and Ollie are cute, its interesting how they are handling his status reveal.

Edited September 27, 2015 by WildcardC

[DollEyes]

Connor & Oliver are definitely my favorite couple on the show. Oliver's HIV-positive status did seem stereotypical at first, but I'm glad that Connor hasn't let it scare him away. Oliver has changed Connor for the better because if it were any other guy, chances are that Connor couldn't abstain for sex for two days, let alone almost two weeks. Connor's taking PrEP & moving in with Oliver show that he's serious, or at least he wants to be.

 

  When Connor told Oliver that seeing him was the best part of his day, that was very sweet. Oliver may not be a so-called "pretty boy" like Connor, but I've seen enough on & off-screen examples of beautiful people falling for nerds to know that, as the saying goes, "Opposites attract."  Oliver is very sexy in his own way & Connor not only knows it, it looks like Connor might be in love for the first time in his life.  Hopefully he won't break Oliver's heart.

[Chicago Redshirt]

I don't know why they won't give wes and michaela a try. they're the only two unattached member of the keating 5. both good looking and what I've seen of the actors in interviews they have chemistry. But I can see them being afraid of hooking the two attractive black kids though. But I think it would be better than seeing desperate Michaela and pathetic wes trying to find rebecca, which it looks like we will be getting. I would also like this because I like michaela's character but feel they don't give her much to do. But having her get involved with Wes would put her more in the thick of things.

 

Maybe Michaela and Wes's search for Rebecca will bring them together romantically?

 

I think the pairing doesn't make real sense for either of them, though.

 

Michaela has been portrayed as a social climber who would have married a guy on the down-low with a bitchy mother to help make herself a more perfect life. Basically, she was a golddigger. Wes doesn't have anything to offer her. And indeed, she probably blames Wes for helping ruin her life. I don't think she has ever had a nice word to say to Wes. She's just been sort of lukewarm to him. I pretty much think I could buy Michaela being interested in every single other character before I could buy her being interested in Wes. Anni, Frank, Bonnie and Asher all offer her the sort of prestige that she's been looking for. Anni is a glamorous defense attorney and she gushed about how she wants to be like her/be her. Frank and Bonnie as grownups could also help her get ahead. Asher comes from money as his dad is a judge who summers in the Vineyard or Kennebunkport or some such. She and Connor get along pretty well. And Laurel, I could see her having hot hate sex with. 

 

Anybody catch the full text of her personal ad? (Speaking of which, it seems like a pretty big stretch that someone with Michaela's looks at a college campus where there are hundreds of attractive folks would place a personal ad, no?)

I don't know why they won't give wes and michaela a try. they're the only two unattached member of the keating 5. both good looking and what I've seen of the actors in interviews they have chemistry. But I can see them being afraid of hooking the two attractive black kids though. But I think it would be better than seeing desperate Michaela and pathetic wes trying to find rebecca, which it looks like we will be getting. I would also like this because I like michaela's character but feel they don't give her much to do. But having her get involved with Wes would put her more in the thick of things.

 

Maybe Michaela and Wes's search for Rebecca will bring them together romantically?

 

I think the pairing doesn't make real sense for either of them, though.

 

Michaela has been portrayed as a social climber who would have married a guy on the down-low with a bitchy mother to help make herself a more perfect life. Basically, she was a golddigger. Wes doesn't have anything to offer her. And indeed, she probably blames Wes for helping ruin her life. I don't think she has ever had a nice word to say to Wes. She's just been sort of lukewarm to him. I pretty much think I could buy Michaela being interested in every single other character before I could buy her being interested in Wes. Anni, Frank, Bonnie and Asher all offer her the sort of prestige that she's been looking for. Anni is a glamorous defense attorney and she gushed about how she wants to be like her/be her. Frank and Bonnie as grownups could also help her get ahead. Asher comes from money as his dad is a judge who summers in the Vineyard or Kennebunkport or some such. She and Connor get along pretty well. And Laurel, I could see her having hot hate sex with. 

 

Anybody catch the full text of her personal ad? (Speaking of which, it seems like a pretty big stretch that someone with Michaela's looks at a college campus where there are hundreds of attractive folks would place a personal ad, no?)

[dirtypop90]

I don't agree with your assessment of Michaela. I never got Michaela was a gold digger. Is she ambitious and does she have a plan for her life which includes the perfect prince, yes. But I never got from her s/l that Michaela didn't love Aiden. And she was very clearly bothered by the fact that he was attracted to men and decided not to marry him because of it and the fact the fact that he didn't really love her.

the writers are clearly setting her up for an arc where she "finds herself" they've said as much. She comes from humble beginnings and has reinvented herself and is going to have an arc where she becomes comfortable with the woman she is, merging her past and present life. I don't see why she has to go on a dating site and sleep around to get there though. I could see her arc leading her to Wes. They both come from humble beginnings, likely the first lawyer in their families, maybe even both first generation students. And Wes isn't exactly a bum. No he might not want to be a politician or partner at a corporate law firm but he's going to do well for himself. He is at a top law schhol. I can see a s/l where Michaela chooses happiness with a guy who has a good heart, is good to her and still has a bright future but isn't the "prince" she imagined for herself . It's been done before and frankly happens in real life. And I would rather see it here than her just jumping from guy to guy wallowing in self pity. Michaela's not going to end up with Aiden or a guy like him and continue social climbing. The whole purpose of the new arc is moving her away from that.

And I would rather see Wes with someone with some spunk. They would argue and disagree a lot but all the interesting tv couples do. I don't want to see him with another "wounded bird" him and Rebecca were utterly boring. I actually think he could be interesting with Michaela. She would give him some bite and he would soften her a bit.

But I guess it all depends on how you see Michaela. I think she is pretty sensitive and emotional and does have heart, but just works very hard to hide it. She doesn't seem cold to me like laurel or even Bonnie and Annalise.

Edited September 28, 2015 by dirtypop90

[represent]

 

I don't agree with your assessment of Michaela. I never got Michaela was a gold digger. Is she ambitious and does she have a plan for her life which includes the perfect prince, yes. But I never got for the s/l that Michaela didn't love Aiden. And she was very clearly bothered by the fact that he was attracted to men and decided not to marry him because of it and the fact the fact that he didn't really love her.

Yeah, I agree, she's not really a gold digger. A gold digger IMO, is someone whose only goal in life is to marry someone just so they can sit back and live off that person's money. A gold digger to me has no other ambitions, their career is to find someone to marry for money. I don't see Michaela that way. She has an elitist way about her even though she's not from money; she wants to find a husband in the elite pool to go along with her future prestigious law career. But she doesn't want to just find someone wealthy to marry just so she can live off of their money, sit home doing nothing for herself.  She wants to establish herself in her own right and that does not make her exactly worthy of the gold digger title. 

[dirtypop90]

As for her making a dating profile, yea I thought it was odd at first. But on her profile it says she's just looking for "fun". I can imagine Michaela as a top student who demands respect at school so she might not be interested in banging a bunch of different guys at school. She's going to go find some randoms.

Edited September 28, 2015 by dirtypop90

[SailingBy]

But I never got from her s/l that Michaela didn't love Aiden. And she was very clearly bothered by the fact that he was attracted to men and decided not to marry him because of it and the fact the fact that he didn't really love her.

From my recollection of the way she was written in season 1, she was mostly bothered by the fact that she and Aiden had opened up to each other about past boyfriends/girlfriends (I presume before getting engaged), and that he'd omitted to mention his fling, or however you'd call it, with Connor. My impression was that she was bothered by Aiden's dishonesty, not so much the fact that he might be also attracted to men. He assures her it was an insignificant one-time teenage thing, but then she thinks he's flirting with another man. I don't think it was Aiden's possible bisexuality-of-some-sort that bothered her. In my anecdotal observation, a lot of women have no problem dealing with that, and certainly not women of her age group and educational level nowadays. But she started to think he wasn't really the honest person she thought he was, and was in love with.

[lion10]

I think Wes and Michaela would make an interesting couple, though I've no idea how they would happen. As another poster said, their interaction has been very limited and she probably does associate him with the Sam murder, which is accurate considering he did kill Sam. I'd also like to see him with Laurel if/when she ever gets over Frank. I think they have good chemistry and she seems to have a soft spot for Wes as she's the one who defends him against the group's attacks. I don't want to see Wes with the Asian sibling though. It would be too much of a rehash of Season 1.

As for Annalise, I don't know if anyone should be involved with her. She can be extremely ruthless and when she is she's got no problem with the people she loves suffering to further her goals.

Edited October 5, 2015 by lion10

[dirtypop90]

From my recollection of the way she was written in season 1, she was mostly bothered by the fact that she and Aiden had opened up to each other about past boyfriends/girlfriends (I presume before getting engaged), and that he'd omitted to mention his fling, or however you'd call it, with Connor. My impression was that she was bothered by Aiden's dishonesty, not so much the fact that he might be also attracted to men.

 

See I got from her last scene with the mother in law that Aiden was in fact hiding who he was. The mother in law seemed pretty desperate to get michaela to marry aiden even though she didn't care for her. It seems michaela picked up from that that aiden's mom now knew about aiden's interest in men, which is why she gave her the "I love me" speech and told her she needed to get used to the fact that her son was "gay, bi, or w/e"

 

 

 

I think Wes and Michaela would make an interesting couple, though I've no idea how they would happen

 

wes and laurel I really couldn't see. I think she likes her men dangerous and her and wes have sibling chemistry IMO. I also think Laurel is easily the most dangerous of the keating 5 and I'm really looking forward to them digging into her more. I think we will see her and frank are a lot alike. Looking at aiden, michaela isn't looking for any type of danger. She wants a nice boy. But of course, I have no clue if michaela and wes would have any on screen chemistry because they get no scenes together. lol but I was thinking we might get some when wes finds out michaela is seeing the guy in the pic with rebecca, who is likely eggs. But I really think wes will be moping after rebecca for all of season 2.

Edited October 5, 2015 by dirtypop90

[Chicago Redshirt]

I think that there is a chance that they will go with the defendant sister as literally being "Rebecca 2.0" like they joked about and Wes will start to have interest in her or vice versa.

 

As someone else said, there is a bit of a quasi-incesty vibe between the two defendants, so that might stir up trouble between Wes and them. 

 

As to Michaela being a "gold digger," I don't think that the term inherently means that she has no personal ambitions. I think it means she was focused on the money and the status more than the person. I could not see Michaela dating someone like Wes because he doesn't have fabulous wealth, even if (hypothetically) his other qualities were everything she's looking for.

 

Michaela seemed to be more concerned about building a perfect life with Prince Aiden than actually being attuned to who Aiden is or what he's about. Hence her hesitancy about the prenup. As I remember her scenes with Aiden pre-reveal, very little of an "I love you" vibe came out, and much more of a "We are going to have the perfect life that I've planned where we're rich and fabulous together"  was at the heart of things. My recollection of her "I choose me" speech was it basically involved her breaking away from considering being involved with Aiden just to get that perfect life or a semblance of it, which was especially tempting when she thought she was going down for murder. 

[dirtypop90]

I don't think she's looking for fabulous wealth. Michaela has been looking for the total package, and that includes someone who is doing well for himself, but to me it's not really about the number of dollars in his bank account now but where he is going in life. She wants someone who matches her ambition and is going somewhere. But that's just how I read her. I think she would date a politician and they are not loaded. With that said, the "i love me" speech was her saying money and status is not the most important thing, which to me hints that the writers are not going to have her end up with someone who is wealthy. It might not be Wes but I do think it will be someone like him, who does not have the status she was originally looking for but has potential. It would be pointless to have her split from aiden, do her character arc where she becomes more of her true self, and then put her with another aiden. And she did tell aiden she loved him, but he didn't say it back. He dropped her on christmas pretty easily. And it was his mother who reached out to her, not aiden, which confirmed that Aiden didn't really love her. 

 

I would think wes and adopted sibling would start up but I do think we will find out she is seeing her brother. And I think with this eggs stuff wes will get back into rebecca mode. In the preview, we can see wes confronting the guy michaela is seeing. I can't see wes looking for rebecca while sleeping with someone else. He doesn't seem like that kind of guy.

 

I know I said before I wasn't a huge fan of Laurel and frank but I thought they had a hot scene last ep. I don't really understand why Frank is running cold now though. Under these circumstances, laurel and frank trying to enter an actual relationship is simply ridiculous

 

I really hope Eve will return and I wonder how Nate will take Anna/Eve

Edited October 5, 2015 by dirtypop90

[lion10]

I really hope Eve will return and I wonder how Nate will take Anna/Eve

I can see Nate saying "fuck it" and leaving town and/or getting out of Annalise's life. It's what I would do. The woman is toxic and lost him his job and made him look like a scumbag in front of his peers (because cheating on your cancer stricken wife is pretty damn low).

Edited October 6, 2015 by lion10

[Chicago Redshirt]

That's what a sane, real-life person would do. 

 

But in this show, Anni's hoo-ha is darn near magical, drawing in lesbian exes, humiliated minions, disgraced cops, high-ranking mob bosses with its siren song. It apparently is not quite as effective against homicidal maniacs, though. Go figure.

[dirtypop90]

The actor is a regular so Nate's not going anywhere. Maybe he will be seeking revenge.

[TheHappinessHotel]

 

 

I know I said before I wasn't a huge fan of Laurel and frank but I thought they had a hot scene last ep. I don't really understand why Frank is running cold now though. Under these circumstances, laurel and frank trying to enter an actual relationship is simply ridiculous

 

 

That scene was all sorts of hot!  It did seem very out of place though and should have been something in season 1.  

I remember Bonnie telling Laurel to not break Frank's heart/tease him, but then it turned out he had a girlfriend.  So he was a cheater then?  I don't get it!

I do love their chemistry together though.

[DollEyes]

I don't. I'm no Laurel fan, but the only time I found her likable was when she was with Khan last season, the guy who's smart, kind, hot & unlike Frank, not a cold-blooded killer.

[wanderingstar]

I miss Khan. Damn, he was hot. 

[dirtypop90]

I don't. I'm no Laurel fan, but the only time I found her likable was when she was with Khan last season, the guy who's smart, kind, hot & unlike Frank, not a cold-blooded killer.

I honestly think laurel is a sociopath. She's oddly cold and non remorseful (if that's a word) after what they did. When they were hiding the body, Wes was in control because Annalise was telling him what to do. Michaela and Conner were cracking. Laurel was totally in control like Wes although she knew nothing like Michaela and Conner. And Michaela and Wes have vocally expressed concern for Nate and they ended up at Nate's hearing with Conner but laurel did not go (may have missed something but I don't remember seeing her sitting with them). It's little things but the writers are including them for a reason.

Edited October 13, 2015 by dirtypop90

[Coxfires]

I agree, dirtypop90, and that is why I regret her storyline with Franck. She definitely has shown sociopathic tendencies, and hides a incredibly cold and calculting mind behind a shy and quiet exterior. I find her the most enigmatic of the K5, and wish we would see her character be explored beyond the Franck aspect. In general, I would like to see more contribution from the K5 to the cases in terms of actual intellect/law rather than legwork

[dirtypop90]

Ahh I see the concern that laurel's s/l is all about frank. I think each member of the keating 5 is pretty undeveloped. Now that I think about it, their s/ls really are all about their love lives. Wes is Rebecca obsessed. Michaela is desperate for a man. Laurel with frank. And Conner is all about Oliver. This show is a lot lower in the younger demo and I really think it might be because it does little with its younger cast. For example, Michaela is supposed to be super smart why doesn't the show focus more on her law school career and career goals? We know Wes has mommy issues but can they be explored in other ways than having Annalise creepily run on him in a sexual manner? They are all pretty much reduced to their relationships and/or sex. annalise, Bonnie, and frank are sexual characters but they have more going on.

[Coxfires]

Ahh I see the concern that laurel's s/l is all about frank. I think each member of the keating 5 is pretty undeveloped. Now that I think about it, their s/ls really are all about their love lives. Wes is Rebecca obsessed. Michaela is desperate for a man. Laurel with frank. And Conner is all about Oliver. This show is a lot lower in the younger demo and I really think it might be because it does little with its younger cast. For example, Michaela is supposed to be super smart why doesn't the show focus more on her law school career and career goals? We know Wes has mommy issues but can they be explored in other ways than having Annalise creepily run on him in a sexual manner? They are all pretty much reduced to their relationships and/or sex. annalise, Bonnie, and frank are sexual characters but they have more going on.

 

Honestly, I find the show entertaining but not necessarily good and you point out exactly where the problem lies: the Keating 5 lack of characterization as individuals. Which is a pity because the actors themselves seem capable of carrying more than is just requested. Besides, Viola Davies is an immense actress and should remain the core of the show, but it shouldn't rely too much on her only to make it work.

I'm mean, I'm more than glad to see a main character be an over 40 bisexual woman of color because that is definitely something new on TV, and Annelise is a fascinating character. But beyond her, the show is completely plot driven, at the detriment of any emotional investment in the characters, which is why I find it entertaining (twists!) but not good.

There were a lot of people turned off by the fact that they couldn't root for any of the characters because they were unlikeable. I, for once, don't mind that the character are selfish/arrogant/brats, because it makes for different characters than the usual "good guys", but I'd like to see more of it.

Annelise chose these 5 for a reason and I'd like to see them provide more intel this year, because so far they acted more as detectives than lawyers this season. Michaela proved last year she had good knowledge of jurisprudences, Laurel "thinks" like a killer, Wes can have out-of-the-box ideas. We didn't see that this year, as you pointed out, only the relationship aspects, and that is a pity. 

[nyxy]

 I just started watching this on Netflix, and had to get this off my chest. I love Oliver. I hope nothing awful happens to him. He deserves the sappiest of a sappy happily ever after ending.

[dirtypop90]

Glad this thread was bumped. unfortunately, the lack of development for the keating 5 remains and the ratings have hit 1.8 in the demo. Connor still only about oliver, same with laurel and frank. wes is still rebecca obsessed. and we find out michaela is adopted, but unfortunately it seems the writer made that decision just so they could throw another random man at her. Each of the keating 5's character development is tied to who they are screwing. How are they doing in class? do they see their families? Do they have other friends? Are they seeking jobs for the summer? Hell, what area of the law are they even interest in? Who even are these people? 

 

It's bothersome because one, the younger actors are capable, and two, all of these romances suck except connor/oliver.

Edited October 31, 2015 by dirtypop90

[wanderingstar]

For me, there's so much backstabbing and alliance shifting on this show, it's hard to ship anybody - even as friends.

[Chicago Redshirt]

we find out michaela is adopted, but unfortunately it seems the writer made that decision just so they could throw another random man at her. 

I want to say that we knew last season that Michaela was adopted. Maybe it was in the episode where Lynn Whitfield took her to the woodshed over coming from nothing and wanting to get into Aiden's family.

[secnarf]

I want to say that we knew last season that Michaela was adopted. Maybe it was in the episode where Lynn Whitfield took her to the woodshed over coming from nothing and wanting to get into Aiden's family.

She says that Michaela came from nothing in the Bayou or whatever, but she never mentions that Michaela is adopted, nor does Michaela mention it in her "I love me" speech. I don't recall any mention of it before season 2 when she first tells Caleb that she's adopted.

[dirtypop90]

^ Yup, which makes it suspect. There was nothing indicating she was adopted. We were told Wes was adopted. It seemed as if Michaela grew up poor and reinvented herself somehow. Now they are saying she was adopted by people nothing like her which doesn't make sense given her convo with Aidan's mom. if she was adopted, very unlikely she grew up poor because poor people typically don't/can't adopt kids, so how did she reinvent herself as she told Connor in season one? It's also unlikely aiden's mom would ever know anything about the situation she was born into. She would only know who her adopted parents were. So how could she know she was "trash from the bayou"

Not to mention it's weird that two members of the K5 were adopted. They clearly twisted things to give her a reason to bond with Caleb.

Edited November 4, 2015 by dirtypop90

[secnarf]

^ Yup, which makes it suspect. There was nothing indicating she was adopted. We were told Wes was adopted. It seemed as if Michaela grew up poor and reinvented herself somehow. Now they are saying she was adopted by people nothing like her which doesn't make sense given her convo with Aidan's mom. if she was adopted, very unlikely she grew up poor because poor people typically don't/can't adopt kids. It's also unlikely aiden's mom would ever know anything about the situation she was born into. She would only know who her adopted parents were. So how could she know she was "trash from the bayou"

Not to mention it's weird that two members of the K5 were adopted. They clearly twisted things to give her a reason to bond with Caleb.

When were we told that Wes is adopted? I don't remember this at all.

Also, Michaela could have been adopted at an older age - there's nothing really that says she was necessarily adopted as a baby. It could have also been a relative who adopted her, and maybe poorer relatives would be more willing to adopt a child who is related to them than very poor people would be willing/able to adopt an unrelated child. Or, she could have been adopted and then one or both of her adoptive parents could have lost their jobs or something along those lines. There are a lot of possibilities that the writers could work with to make a story make sense. I'm not saying that I necessarily believe that this was planned from the beginning, since Nowalk has stated that he doesn't really do that even with the main storylines, but it could be written in a way that makes sense.

[dirtypop90]

When were we told that Wes is adopted? I don't remember this at all.

Also, Michaela could have been adopted at an older age - there's nothing really that says she was necessarily adopted as a baby. It could have also been a relative who adopted her, and maybe poorer relatives would be more willing to adopt a child who is related to them than very poor people would be willing/able to adopt an unrelated child. Or, she could have been adopted and then one or both of her adoptive parents could have lost their jobs or something along those lines. There are a lot of possibilities that the writers could work with to make a story make sense. I'm not saying that I necessarily believe that this was planned from the beginning, since Nowalk has stated that he doesn't really do that even with the main storylines, but it could be written in a way that makes sense.

I believe Wes told Rebecca that he was adopted after his mom committed suicide? Either that or he was a foster kid? Either way, it's odd that two members of the k5 were not raised by their birth parents.

And it's pretty difficult for even poor relatives to formally adopt a kid. I guess it depends on the state. But in my state the income of the relative is considered and you have to be atleast solid financially, i.e lower middle class. I suppose it's possible her adoptive parents went poor but there was something about aiden's mom statement and michaela's response that indicated she knew Michaela was born into a lower class household.

Also incredibly difficult for an older black child to get adopted

Edited November 4, 2015 by dirtypop90

[Skyline]

As far as I know, Wes is not adopted. 

[dirtypop90]

His mom died when he was 12 and it doesn't seem a dad was in the picture. His mom came from Haiti so he would've had to go to foster care or be adopted. I don't know if he explicitly said what happened to him after but for some reason I recall him and Rebecca bonding over their home situations. I suppose one of his mother's friends could've taken him in. Either way, it doesn't seem that he has a family. He spent christmas with Rebecca. So far we have seen everyone's family/home life except him and Michaela.

Edited November 5, 2015 by dirtypop90

[Nanrad]

I thought I'd make a general relationship thread rather that'd be romantic, sexual, friendship, familial, etc. This originally was going to be a Sam and Anna thread, but I don't think there will be enough material to suspect on thread through the course of the series.

 

SPOILERS UP TO PRESENT EPISODE.

 

IMO, they are by far the most fascinating romantic relationship. I'm unsure if it is despite or because of the unethical/questionable morals in their original therapist/patient relationship, but there dynamic and background has always intrigued me. There seem to be more to their relationship than Sam staying married to Annalise to save face and Annalise staying because of her ambition/manipulation/etc. Their relationship was beyond fucked up, but I did believe that they loved one another in their own tragic way.

 

In the back end of the second season, I think they played on fans perceptions and the idea of him always being skeevy and picking up on women all throughout their marriage rather than genuinely loving and being in love with Annalise. Sam could've have cheated on her even then, but I don't think he did. He seemed "innocent" rather than that suspicious aura he gave off in season 1. I don't recall, but I wonder if Sam and Anna got caught or if their affair was outed after he left his wife for Anna.Which doesn't make sense to me if it was the former unless his first wife left him and he needed to present their relationship as serious. Other than that, he could've done what he'd done with Anna at the end of their marriage OR just became a bachelor. I also wonder if his co-workers know how the two meet or if Sam was even Anna's official/legal therapist. Like were they just talking/she got free sessions or was this a contract thing. I find it hard to believe that he could be her official therapist, and then go on to marry her without it seemingly not having any major consequences for him. Someone was bound to remember that, right? 

 

So, we see the beginning of the end of their marriage and they're happy with their marriage, overall life, and impending parenthood. Sam is a protective husband/father, Anna wants her independence but doesn't want her husband/child's father to worry; most of us agree their son's death started the down spiral. And, tbh, I can't really fault either one of their reactions. Annalise closing within herself and Sam trying to support her and being closed out--feeling helpless and slightly upset at her. As misguided as it was (or maybe it wasn't), Sam was trying to protect her, specially with Anna immediately blaming herself after Sam Jr.'s death.

 

With all of this, it just makes me see two people who couldn't let go and stop loving each other no matter how much they hurt one another. No matter how much their grief reminded them of their loss. I believe that Annalise closed herself off after the loss of the child and Sam stop trying to make her talk. I also think Annalise blamed herself in the sense of being afraid of motherhood and that the loss of her child was a sign. Because of this, she may have told Sam she didn't want anymore kids. And, so even if Annalise suspected Sam was cheating, Sam couldn't hurt couldn't hurt her by having a pregnant mistress. The marriage was in shambles, but both of them found it hard to leave based on what they once felt.

[Milaxx]

I been thinking for some time about creating a thread for these guys. They seem to suck the air out of the episodes threads. This can be a space to rant/discuss/etc... about them specifically as a couple. 

I'm a was watching Grey's Anatomy the other day. It was episodes from season 8 featuring Christina & Owen.  It occurred to me that Connor & Oliver may be HTGAWM's version of them; 2 strong personalities that love each other and just can't seem to make it work. I got to thinking. So I googled and sure enough, Pete Nowalk was one of the creators of that pairing.

Quote

He started as a writer and story editor on Grey's Anatomy in 2008 (his first credited episode, "Dream a Little Dream of Me: Part 2" is the one where Cristina and Owen first meet).

Personally, I like Coliver. I think the actors have great chemistry together. I also see the faults & mistakes both parties have made. I hope they are end game, but if Cristina & Owen are any indication, there are going to be lots of bumps in the road.

[Milaxx]

Wondering about the future of Coliver. Current issues are:

Connor slept with Thomas out of revenge. Will he tell Oliver or will it come out in another way?

Connor admits he wasn't high the night of the bonfire/Sam's murder which leads Oliver to do some snooping. If Oliver finally finds out about Sam, what will he do? He already appears to have been drawn into AK's web when he hack the DA's office and wiped her phone. In for a penny, in for a pound? Does he accept Connor's lying to him all this time? 

Does Connor confess about the Hapstall mansion?

[Milaxx]

On 4/9/2016 at 4:52 PM, doram said:

After watching season 2, it puts a lot of season 1 in perspective. I think they loved each other but their marraige was crippled by the fact that it started as an affair between a shrink and his patient, and the miscarriage was the final blow. I think even in season 1, there was still love there - Sam's decision to murder Lila stemmed from wanting to prevent the scandal of her talking, but it also stemmed from wanting to keep the truth from Annalisse. It's a fascinating relationship, and it's so fascinating the way the show has consistently portrayed it - it's never completely what we thought it was.

After seeing how things played out in the first half of this season,  this is an interesting thought. While I agree with this, I think if this was any other couple this would have been the point where they would divorce. I do think there was some love or feelings for the memories of the love they once had that drove Sam to to want to avoid scandal, but the genuine love they had when they first moved into that house was long gone. A larger part of both his having Lila murdered and Anna covering Sam's death was about saving face. 

Edited February 3, 2017 by Milaxx

[Nanrad]

On 1/30/2017 at 6:50 AM, doram said:

@Nanrad I've also only watched the seasons once (binge-watch season 1 via Netflix  and caught up with season 2) but I remember distinctly that the initial issues Frank and Laurel had was that she was using him for one thing. She seemed to stick to the relationship to "prove" him wrong about her intentions. Which is interesting because she proves herself to Wes virtually without even meaning to. Her relationship with Wes has always run parallel with the one with Frank, getting increasingly closer almost despite themselves. There were many moments long before her discovery of Lila's murder where people've given her and Wes the "what exactly are you?" run-through. 

She couldn't handle Frank's confession about Lila, but she twice covered a murder/attempted murder for Wes. She even tells Wes that she's OK with the murders/crimes they've committed because of her background. So it's telling that whatever feelings she had for Frank aren't enough to push through. 

I think Lila's murder just confirmed to her what she already suspected and was shying from - she was in the relationship because of Daddy issues.

I can't imagine Laurel wanting Frank in jail to pay for his crimes. She's been many things over the course of this show but never a hypocrite. And even if in someway that can be rationalised with the character that has been established - it's still Laurel wanting one man in prison for his crimes, while protecting another man for his own crimes. Essentially, put through the same circumstances, she makes a different choice with one man than she does with the other.

Which indicates that no matter what she feels she should feel, her feelings for Wes are greater, run truer and deeper than they ever did for Frank. 

Well, honestly, because she could rationalize why Wes committed murder and covering for him is okay and not Frank. It's easy to cover for someone who killed another person in self defense and this same person ordered to have another person killed. That's not something you're going to have on your conscious if you lie about it for protecting them vs. someone who was ordered to kill. Laurel is assessing the acts of murder on a scale of morality.

If you were to hear that two people killed someone, you'd ask why. If one person killed in self defense and another person killed because someone asked them to, you're judging the latter and sympathizing with the former. So, I can't buy the idea that Laurel protected Wes out of anything more than self interest and because he had an 'understandable' reason for murder than 'her feelings ran that deep.' Despite Laurel's comment about her past, she doesn't even have a close relationship with her family--mainly her father--for that very reason. Is she suddenly okay with murder because of her feelings?

So, she only cares when someone murders when it's not someone she loves and cares for deeply?

The question then is: what does is her issue with Frank? She's okay with murder because of her background, but him admitting to murder is what finally pushed him away. But, she doesn't want him in jail nor does she want him around despite protecting him on two different occasions when it came to Annalise. She doesn't want him alive or dead? 

Her feelings could be everything that you said, but I just don't think she was being brutally honest because grief took away her filters. So, was she being mostly honest? Is she not including her role in the mission to get him to come back? Like, there are tons of questions here that need to be answered so she doesn't come off as a contradiction.

[Milaxx]

Overall I think the timeline of the show hurts how we view the relationships. We've been watching for nearly 3 years but in show time everything that has occurred is only 1 year give or take a few weeks. In that time Wes has been supposedly seriously in love 3 times, Asher - 2 times, Laurel - 2 times not counting Khan, just to name a few. The relationships haven't had time to breathe. The show has a tendency to choose coupling over friendship. IMO some of the actors have better chemistry together which goes a long way towards making or breaking a believable relationship.  I think AJa has great chemistry with everyone she is paired with. She was terrific in that one bright Wes flashback scene. I think she is also part of why the Asher/Micheal pairing works. Matt also has great chemistry with his costars. Likley due to his real life easy going nature. I found Eve/Anna more believable than Nate/Anna as anything other than a fling. I love Bonnie/Frank but as close friends rather than lovers.  I like Oliver/Connor as a romantic couple. I never understood Wes's fascination with Rebecca. In fact she's the only character I never liked. I also feel like Wes/Laurel was too rushed to be believable. I think if we had gotten more episodes of them as a couple and Laurel didn't send the first 3 episodes trying to find Frank and claiming she loved him, much  like Asher & Micheala won us over, we could have warmed up to Waurel as a couple.

Edited February 4, 2017 by Milaxx
clarity

[Nanrad]

3 minutes ago, doram said:

The thing though is it's arguable if Wes was acting in self defense when he killed Sam. He definitely wasn't acting in self defense when he shot Annalisse in the gut, almost killing her. And in the latter situation, Laurel had no self interest, had already resigned herself to Annalise's schemes going sideways. But the moment Wes was at risk, she stepped in and covered for him. She literally admits that she did it to protect him.

 

Meanwhile, she's just framed Frank for a murder she knows without doubt that he didn't commit. 

 

She stopped wanting him back the moment she found out that he killed Wes's father and tried to frame Wes for it. Up until then, she was acting out of a sense of obligation, and likely clinging to whatever remained of her relationship with Frank since Wes was clearly moving on with Meggy. 

Whether we see it as self defense or anything else, the K5 and others do differentiate between Wes killing Sam and Frank killing Lila. Many see what Wes did as understandable, where as Frank is a monster. People are allowed to their opinions, but I don't think that first murder is debatable when it comes to why Laurel defended/protected Wes. But, does her sense of protection for Wes have to be romantic? Why couldn't it have been at that time simply platonic and because she saw him as the least morally compromised? Maybe it was a GIGANTIC huge oversight on my part, but I'm pretty good at picking up these things even the subtle shit. EVEN if I don't like a pairing. Laurel's protection of Wes, IMHO, has no romantic overtone--even then, it wouldn't make any sense according to Laurel logic about stuff like that. 

Did she frame Frank for a murder? I thought you said she just said those things because she was upset? The murder in no way points to Frank. (I may edit this later if this is a spoiler for tonight).

I thought she never wanted him and finally admitted it when they broke up after he admitted to killing Lila? Were she and Frank really friends tho? Some of this ain't adding up.

[Milaxx]

1 minute ago, Nanrad said:

Did she frame Frank for a murder?

She just did in tonight's episode.

[Nanrad]

1 minute ago, Milaxx said:

She just did in tonight's episode.

Yeah, I had put that I'd change it if it were a spoiler. I can't watch it live. :(

[Nanrad]

I I think it's interpretive that her motivation was romantic in nature. 

Also, her reason for framing Frank has everything to do with him admitting to the murder and her hand being forced since they can't get Annalise off. Laurel didn't want to implicate Frank at all. Frank and Wes are morally two different characters, which is the deciding factor more so than who she has feelings for.

[Tiger]

22 hours ago, Milaxx said:

Overall I think the timeline of the show hurts how we view the relationships. We've been watching for nearly 3 years but in show time everything that has occurred is only 1 year. In that time Wes has been supposedly seriously in love 3 times, Asher - 2 times, Laurel - 2 times not counting Khan, just to name a few. The relationships haven't had time to breathe. The show has a tendency to choose coupling over friendship. IMO some of the actors have better chemistry together which goes a long way towards making or breaking a believable relationship.  I think AJa has great chemistry with everyone she is paired with. She was terrific in that one bright Wes flashback scene. I think she is also part of why the Asher/Micheal pairing works. Matt also has great chemistry with his costars. Likley due to his real life easy going nature. I found Eve/Anna more believable than Nate/Anna as anything other than a fling. I love Bonnie/Frank but as close friends rather than lovers.  I like Oliver/Connor as a romantic couple. I never understood Wes's fascination with Rebecca. In fact she's the only character I never liked. I also feel like Wes/Laurel was to rushed to be believable. I thin if we had gotten more episodes of them as a couple and Laurel didn't send the first 3 episodes trying to find Frank and claiming she loved him like Asher and Micheala we could have warmed up to them as a couple.

That's a great point.  Yes its the second half of the third season, but for the characters its been about 1 year + 10 or so weeks.