S05.E16: Dark Side Of The Moon

[AwesomO4000]

10 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

With Sam she just invited him to have a threesome.

Well she did later grab Sam's ass***... and even used "you have a great ass" as Sam's code words for coming back in the dream episode. I can see the kissing Dean part, but considering that Pamela seemed happy in her heaven and so likely shouldn't have been holding Sam's dark period against him, I was a bit surprised (and disappointed) that there wasn't at least a passing ass smack for Sam as to me that very much would have been in character for Pamela.

*** Under the pretext of trying to figure out who he was in "Heaven and Hell." But then she admitted that she knew who he was and was just pretending she didn't and used her blindness to cop a feel.

Edited April 9, 2018 by AwesomO4000

[DeeDee79]

Just now, AwesomO4000 said:

Well she did later grab Sam's ass... and even used "you have a great ass" as Sam's code words for coming back in the dream episode. I can see the kissing Dean part, but considering that Pamela seemed happy in her heaven and so likely shouldn't have been holding Sam's dark period against him, I was a bit surprised (and disappointed) that there wasn't at least a passing ass smack for Sam as to me that very much would have been in character for Pamela.

That's fine but my examples to lju was because her statement seemed to indicate that Pamela's interest was only in Sam which wasn't the case.

[Iju]

14 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

When they showed up at her house she very blatantly checked Dean out, flirted back when he made a comment about her tattoo and grabbed his thigh under the séance table. With Sam she just invited him to have a threesome. I saw it as a woman that liked what she saw in Dean and thinking that she could have more fun if she had two hot brothers instead of one.

hm, putting in that aspect i see you are right.

15 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

1 hour ago, Iju said:

 

I adore that episode. I think it's a good brother episode, especially the ending which contains one of my favorite, heartstring tugging Sam expressions of the show.

 

14 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Watch it! That was such an entertaining ep!!

it's not that we didn't want to watch it, but the thing that is my mother is so specific when it comes to holiday specials, so she wouldn't have wanted to see that episode considering the time we were watching it so i skipped it. in fact she had asked if there was a chistmas episode and i told her about it, and we decided to wait out the very long wait for christmas time. i want to see it dreadfully and i hate skipping a single scene let alone an episode, but this had to be done unfortunately :( :(

Edited April 9, 2018 by Iju

[gonzosgirrl]

6 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

In Dean's interpretation. I personally wouldn't say that just because Sam didn't see family the same way Dean did that that means his feelings for Dean are somehow now "fake" or that Sam sees his childhood with Dean as unimportant. I think that the fireworks memory showed that Sam very much appreciated Dean and that such occasions were happy for Sam at the time. I don't think that young Sam there was somehow faking how he felt about Dean. I guess it could be interpreted that maybe Dean remembered that incident differently than it actually happened, but for me, I don't think that was actually the case or that that was the intent of the writing.

To me, just because Sam's memories shown were those where he got some independence from his teen years with John where Sam often felt restricted, unappreciated, and like he didn't belong that that somehow means that he didn't care about Dean or even cherish some of his memories with Dean. As Sam said, he just didn't see things the same way as Dean did, and just because Dean often defines himself through his family doesn't mean that Sam has to or that either way is better or worse, right or wrong. They are just different.

I adore that episode. I think it's a good brother episode, especially the ending which contains one of my favorite, heartstring tugging Sam expressions of the show.

But it is Dean's interpretations that count when observing and understanding Dean's reactions. He was hurt by Sam's memories, rightfully so in my opinion, but more importantly, he was entitled to feel hurt because they were his feelings. Lord knows he's had to suck them up often enough and justify others treatment of him. But this time he came back from Heaven feeling hurt and belittled, both by his brother and by God. So he threw away a symbol tied to both of them, and if he paused for effect to give a little of that back to Sam in that moment, well I say he was entitled to that, too.

[DeeDee79]

6 minutes ago, Iju said:

it's not that we didn't want to watch it, but the thing that is my mother is so specific when it comes to holiday specials, so she wouldn't have wanted to see that episode considering the time we were watching it so i skipped it. in fact she had asked if there was a chistmas episode and i told her about it, and we decided to wait out the very long wait for christmas time. i want to see it dreadfully and i hate skipping a single scene let alone episode, but this had to be done unfortunately :( :(

That's a shame because there was so much good stuff in that ep and a lot of emotion between the brothers in regards to Dean's deal. Also it had two of the most entertaining monsters that have been on the show! 

6 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

But this time he came back from Heaven feeling hurt and belittled, both by his brother and by God.

As well as Zachariah's mindfuck of having Mary's image tell Dean that she never loved him.

Edited April 9, 2018 by DeeDee79

[gonzosgirrl]

5 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

That's a shame because there was so much good stuff in that ep and a lot of emotion between the brothers in regards to Dean's deal. Also it had two of the most entertaining monsters that have been on the show! 

  

And it's a "Christmas Special" in name only. The holiday has very little to do with the episode, except as a plot device.

Quote

As well as the Zachariah mindfuck of having Mary's image tell Dean that she never loved him.

I don't even think that had much effect on him, it was so obviously an OTT Zachariah manipulation. I know there is a ton of fanfic and fanwank that all of the memories were manipulations, but I don't buy it. They may have been selective, but they were real - neither of them ever tried to deny that. Sam only tried to justify his by saying he didn't get the crusts cut off his sandwiches.

Edited April 9, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[DeeDee79]

5 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And it's a "Christmas Special" in name only. The holiday has very little to do with the episode, except as a plot device.

Very true!

[AwesomO4000]

5 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

hat's fine but my examples to lju was because her statement seemed to indicate that Pamela's interest was only in Sam which wasn't the case.

I got that.

I was just disagreeing that the threesome idea was Pamela's only interest in Sam.

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

But it is Dean's interpretations that count when observing and understanding Dean's reactions. He was hurt by Sam's memories, rightfully so in my opinion, but more importantly, he was entitled to feel hurt because they were his feelings. Lord knows he's had to suck them up often enough and justify others treatment of him. But this time he came back from Heaven feeling hurt and belittled, both by his brother and by God. So he threw away a symbol tied to both of them, and if he paused for effect to give a little of that back to Sam in that moment, well I say he was entitled to that, too.

I don't disagree with this and didn't say that Dean's reactions or feelings were somehow wrong. I was disagreeing with this:

Quote

So you can see why he would throw away this symbol of Sam's 'affection' after learning the place he thought he had in Sam's memories was fake, too.

The place Dean thought he had in Sam's memories may not have been what he thought, but in my opinion that doesn't make Sam's memories of or affection for Dean "fake." I don't even think that Sam's affection in giving Dean the amulet the first time was fake and it was even less fake later on after the amulet had new meaning for Sam ...and so that's what I was disagreeing with. Not with Dean's feelings or his reaction which Dean is entitled to. Just as Sam was entitled to his as well. As I said above, just because they see things differently doesn't make one way to see things right or wrong. To me, just because Sam didn't feel exactly the way Dean wanted him to or expected him to doesn't mean that Sam is somehow wrong or loves Dean in an inferior or fake way or that the amulet didn't have real meaning for Sam in terms of his affection for Dean.*** In other words, Dean may have now seen the affection from Sam that the amulet represented as fake, but that doesn't mean that to Sam his affection for Dean was fake. Sam, in my opinion, loved Dean more than ever, and just because Dean didn't see that or interpret it that way doesn't make Dean's interpretation the only right one or mean that Sam didn't love Dean.

My disagreeing had nothing to do with saying that Dean wasn't entitled to his reaction or his feelings. Which he was. My disagreement was in the idea that accepting Dean's feelings and reactions means that Sam's feelings and reactions are somehow wrong or disingenuous in comparison. I can see both sides. I can see why Dean was hurt while at the same time thinking that Sam had a right to see their family dynamics differently than Dean did and sympathizing with why Sam sometimes wanted to be away from John and the hunting life.

*** I thought that "A Very Supernatural Christmas" showed that Dean's amulet had earned a lot of meaning for Sam in terms of his affection for Dean. And if that hadn't done it, then Sam wearing Dean's amulet after Dean died and then returning it to him certainly would've for me. So despite the maybe "fake" origins (which I don't entirely subscribe to anyway), that was gone for me by the end of "A Very Supernatural Christmas" and with "Lazurus Rising," so that there was nothing fake to me about Sam's affection for Dean with the amulet and giving it to Dean, especially the second time.

[AwesomO4000]

59 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Sam only tried to justify his by saying he didn't get the crusts cut off his sandwiches.

Why are Sam's feelings on this somehow only "justifications" or any less valid than Dean's? Maybe looking for that missing love from a mother was one of the reasons why Sam enjoyed having Thanksgiving at a home that had a mother's influence... to see what he was missing. And in my opinion, that would be understandable. In my opinion, just because Dean didn't understand why Sam might have wanted to experience Thanksgiving in a more traditional home doesn't mean that Sam having wanted that was somehow wrong or bad.

In my opinion, it's not just getting crusts cut off his sandwiches here... it's the stability and safety and mother's love that it represents and that Sam never had. Dean may have had it for only a short time, but there was a time that he had it and so Dean understood that and how that was lost. Dean also understood that because of that loss, John was trying in his own way to keep them safe. But Sam was kept from that reality for a while when he was a kid. He didn't know why they moved around and had no permanence, so it likely became something he was curious about and wanted to experience. While also wondering why their dad insisted on moving them around and disrupting their lives all the time.

[DeeDee79]

7 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I got that.

I was just disagreeing that the threesome idea was Pamela's only interest in Sam.

I got that. I disagree that she had more interest in Sam than in Dean.

[DittyDotDot]

TBH, I don't think Pamela was particularly interested in either of them, but would've been happy to have some fun with both of them.

[Iju]

11 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

That's a shame because there was so much good stuff in that ep and a lot of emotion between the brothers in regards to Dean's deal. Also it had two of the most entertaining monsters that have been on the show!

it doesn't help that now i know there is a kid flashback which i have been starving for ever since the high school ep, i really want to see it now >.<

[DeeDee79]

8 minutes ago, Iju said:

it doesn't help that now i know there is a kid flashback which i have been starving for ever since the high school ep, i really want to see it now >.<

The kid flashbacks in this episode were way better than the ones in After School Special. Watch it! ?

[sarthaz]

12 hours ago, Iju said:

was that in the christmas episode? because we skipped that one as well.

Wait, what?!? There's no skipping in Supernatural.  Stop whatever it is you're doing, unless you are literally administering CPR, and watch it.

"as well"? Dafuq?

;)

[gonzosgirrl]

10 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Why are Sam's feelings on this somehow only "justifications" or any less valid than Dean's? Maybe looking for that missing love from a mother was one of the reasons why Sam enjoyed having Thanksgiving at a home that had a mother's influence... to see what he was missing. And in my opinion, that would be understandable. In my opinion, just because Dean didn't understand why Sam might have wanted to experience Thanksgiving in a more traditional home doesn't mean that Sam having wanted that was somehow wrong or bad.

In my opinion, it's not just getting crusts cut off his sandwiches here... it's the stability and safety and mother's love that it represents and that Sam never had. Dean may have had it for only a short time, but there was a time that he had it and so Dean understood that and how that was lost. Dean also understood that because of that loss, John was trying in his own way to keep them safe. But Sam was kept from that reality for a while when he was a kid. He didn't know why they moved around and had no permanence, so it likely became something he was curious about and wanted to experience. While also wondering why their dad insisted on moving them around and disrupting their lives all the time.

Sam's absolutely as entitled to his feelings as Dean is. What I meant is, he is literally the only one who tried to justify the scenes they remembered as their heaven. He was defensive about them because he knew Dean was hurt by them, and having him use that particular justification (regardless of the possible deeper meaning) when Dean had just experienced that particular memory (which wasn't exactly a Walton's moment either- it was painfully followed by the child comforting his mother, not the other way around), was a shitty choice. Maybe he could've said 'those weren't my only happy memories, I have lots that include you'. He could've eased his brother's obvious hurt,  but that's not what he did - he doubled down on it. Because, IMO, that's what Sam does - he gets defensive and then justifies himself by offloading responsibility, whether it be onto his brother, his father,  his circumstances, etc. He pays lip service to saying I'm sorry, or it's my fault, or this is on me, but there is always a but - and it's usually followed by the reasons why it's not really his fault.

Edited April 9, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[trxr4kids]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

He could've eased his brother's obvious hurt,  but that's not what he did - he doubled down on it. Because, IMO, that's what Sam does - he justifies himself by offloading responsibility, whether it be onto his brother, his father,  his circumstances, etc. He pays lip service to saying I'm sorry, or it's my fault, or this is on me, but there is always a but - and it's usually followed by the reasons why it's not really his fault.

So much this, it's old and tiring.

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

I got that. I disagree that she had more interest in Sam than in Dean.

Which is pretty much what I was acknowledging in agreeing that I could see the Dean / Pamela kiss. I wasn't trying to dismiss or downgrade Dean / Pamela or imply it should have been Sam / Pamela instead, so sorry if it seemed that way. I just thought that Pamela ignoring Sam completely - rather than a passing ass smack - seemed weird to me based on all of their previous interactions.

It was actually  something that at first made me question if Pamela was actually Pamela or a Zachariah plant to promote the angels' "rah rah heaven is great so please support our cause" stance. A sort of "it's okay if some people die, because they'll be happy here in heaven" kind of thing... But then I decided that Zachariah likely wasn't that nuanced or sophisticated in his methods, and so decided that it was Pamela after all.

9 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Because, IMO, that's what Sam does - he gets defensive and then justifies himself by offloading responsibility, whether it be onto his brother, his father,  his circumstances, etc. He pays lip service to saying I'm sorry, or it's my fault, or this is on me, but there is always a but - and it's usually followed by the reasons why it's not really his fault.

I disagree that Sam offloads his responsibility and that there is always (or even mostly) a "but," and I could give numerous examples and probably have before, but I don't think there's much point so I won't.

16 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

He was defensive about them because he knew Dean was hurt by them, and having him use that particular justification (regardless of the possible deeper meaning) when Dean had just experienced that particular memory (which wasn't exactly a Walton's moment either- it was painfully followed by the child comforting his mother, not the other way around), was a shitty choice. Maybe he could've said 'those weren't my only happy memories, I have lots that include you'. He could've eased his brother's obvious hurt,  but that's not what he did - he doubled down on it.

Bolded parts for the Too Long: Didn't Read.

Sure Sam could have said what you suggested, but I don't necessarily think that was it Sam's responsibility to state what he shouldn't have to to begin with. Why should Dean even be questioning Sam's love - and if Sam ever really loved him - just because in Sam's youth he wanted to have some independence? I don't blame Sam for getting defensive. And saying something like you suggest  would have been feeding into all of Dean's attacks that somehow the memories they were seeing from Sam were "wrong." Which I don't think they were.

Sam had explained himself earlier. He told Dean that the reason why the memories were positive for him was because he had a real Thanksgiving for once and independence and a dog, and got to be free from all of John's responsibilities... Dean took that as "you wanted away from me." Sam's explanations of "I don't see family in the same way as you do" were met with basically "well then you must hate family and/or are doing it wrong." In response to that, Sam then tried to mitigate things by steering Dean away from another memory he knew might feed into Dean's mindset and hurt. I saw less defensiveness from Sam in the leaving-for-Stanford memory and more concern and regret that the memory was going to hurt Dean. And sure enough, Dean again took it personally - which was his feelings, true, but Sam also had a right to feel hurt as well. A night that in some ways represented the beginning of a time of growth and love with Jess in Sam's life was reduced by Dean to "the worst night of his (Dean's) life." Who cared if the memory they were seeing represented a time when Sam had finally made a decision to follow his dream that he had been working hard for for a long, long time and maybe had a future that he could be happy with ahead of him? ...he hurt Dean's feelings! There was no effort on Dean's part - that I could see anyway - to even consider Sam's side. Sam had tried to say that he wasn't controlling the memories, but Dean acted like Sam was somehow doing all of this to hurt him.

So pretty much by the time the Mary memory came along, Sam had been under scrutiny by Dean the entire time. I don't blame him for getting a little defensive. Every one of his explanations before had been met with negativity and no attempt by Dean to understand Sam's position. Was the way Sam explained himself in the Mary memory somewhat shitty on Sam's part? Yes, but I can also see that by that time Sam had pretty much felt attacked for anything and everything shown for his memories, so I can understand his defensiveness.

Absolutely Sam could have done it differently, but in my opinion, so could Dean have done things differently. He could have tried to see Sam's side even a little bit rather than appearing to be saying that he (Dean) was entirely right and that Sam was somehow the worst brother ever for ever even having wanted to have some independence of his own in his youth. I guess I just didn't see it only as Sam's responsibility to smooth things over and apologize for his life - which would pretty much have been what a "but these aren't my only good memories" would have done. For me, it wasn't in question that Sam had some good memories with Dean... and that now - when Sam was supporting Dean, had learned his lesson, and was trying to make up for his mistakes - should count for something also.

Sam had tried to explain that what they were seeing wasn't a reflection on his feelings for Dean, but Dean hadn't been having any of it. Dean was pushing those old "you abandoned our family!" buttons he'd supposedly said he'd left behind, and Sam callously snapped back with "well, I didn't really get to have this family you're talking about to begin with, so there!" Not the best response on Sam's part, I agree, but I can also understand why it happened and don't see it as the only contributing factor or bad behavior in the disagreement.

I guess I saw this as being handled a bit badly by both Sam and Dean... and I don't think the responsibility for mitigating the situation only fell on Sam's shoulders.

[Reganne]

8 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

 

Sam had tried to explain that what they were seeing wasn't a reflection on his feelings for Dean, but Dean hadn't been having any of it. Dean was pushing those old "you abandoned our family!" buttons he'd supposedly said he'd left behind, and Sam callously snapped back with "well, I didn't really get to have this family you're talking about to begin with, so there!" Not the best response on Sam's part, I agree, but I can also understand why it happened and don't see it as the only contributing factor or bad behavior in the disagreement.

I guess I saw this as being handled a bit badly by both Sam and Dean... and I don't think the responsibility for mitigating the situation only fell on Sam's shoulders.

I agree.  And really, the heavens only showed a couple of memories from both of the boys.  Not all their happy memories.  I mean, if you really wanted to read into these heaven memories, and blame Sam for his not including Dean.... I want to ask why doesn't Dean's happy memories have John in them?  In fact, Deans early happy heaven memory appears specifically at a time where John isn't present.  Does that mean Dean was happier when John wasn't around?   On top of that, why does his Sam memory only include a younger Sam?  Does Dean prefer Sam when he was younger?  Does he not have happy memories with Sam as an adult?  After all, you are a completely different person as an adult than you were as a child.  I mean you could really dissect these couple of memories that appear in each of their heavens and come up with various conclusions.  At the end of it, both boys have a right to feel the way they feel, but I personally feel that some of the people in the fandom criticize Sam too much for his memories not including Dean and how that makes him an unappreciative brother to Dean.  For the record, I'm not criticizing Dean for his memories.  Just making observations on how they could be portrayed.  I believe both boys had no control over their memories.  

[gonzosgirrl]

8 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Sure Sam could have said what you suggested, but I don't necessarily think that was it Sam's responsibility to state what he shouldn't have to to begin with. Why should Dean even be questioning Sam's love - and if Sam ever really loved him - just because in Sam's youth he wanted to have some independence?

How about just because it would have been a kindness to his brother? It's not like Dean hasn't swallowed down some things to save Sam's feelings over the years. Instead, Sam point-blank told him that family - and Dean is one of only two people in the world who qualified as that - family just didn't mean the same thing to him. And he did it when his brother was clearly and obviously hurt. Maybe the truth could've waited a bit.

I don't think he questioned Sam's love, rather his place and importance in Sam's life, at a time when he needed to trust in him and his loyalty more than ever before. And Sam's little truthbomb, on top of everything else that happened, was a step too far.

4 minutes ago, Reganne said:

 I believe both boys had no control over their memories.  

All Sam ever had to do was say this. But that is asking too much.

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, Reganne said:

. I want to ask why doesn't Dean's happy memories have John in them?  In

That seems pretty easy answer. John was the absentee father to God being an absentee father. Dean had issues with John. Major issues. I think it speaks volumes that Dean did not have John in there. Because those weren't his happy memories. I'm surprised this is even a question TBH

[Reganne]

36 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

How about just because it would have been a kindness to his brother? It's not like Dean hasn't swallowed down some things to save Sam's feelings over the years. Instead, Sam point-blank told him that family - and Dean is one of only two people in the world who qualified as that - family just didn't mean the same thing to him. And he did it when his brother was clearly and obviously hurt. Maybe the truth could've waited a bit.

I don't think he questioned Sam's love, rather his place and importance in Sam's life, at a time when he needed to trust in him and his loyalty more than ever before. And Sam's little truthbomb, on top of everything else that happened, was a step too far.

All Sam ever had to do was say this. But that is asking too much.

I think both boys have kept things to themselves to not hurt the other and Sam did say that he couldn't control the memories.

 

32 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

That seems pretty easy answer. John was the absentee father to God being an absentee father. Dean had issues with John. Major issues. I think it speaks volumes that Dean did not have John in there. Because those weren't his happy memories. I'm surprised this is even a question TBH

His whole speech to Sam was about family though and John is apart of his family.  Not to mention... does that mean that Dean doesn't care for John the way he did for Mary or the memory of Mary? I get the parallels with the absentee father, but its weird that the speech to Sam was about the importance of family and how wrong it was that's Sam's memories didn't include him but his didn't even include his own father.  A man he spent the majority of his life looking up to.  Yes, he wasn't perfect but no doubt he still loved and cared for him.  

[catrox14]

Just now, Reganne said:

A man he spent the majority of his life looking up to.  Yes, he wasn't perfect but no doubt he still loved and cared for him.  

Did he look up to him or was he brainwashed? I think Dean did love him. Considering part of Sam's happy memory was Dean being harshly punished (and IMO abused by John) for Sam running away, I think that says more to me about how Dean really remembers John deep down inside. That doesn't mean he didn't love him either. It's a pretty messed up situation with Dean and John. IMO

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

All Sam ever had to do was say this. But that is asking too much.

As @Reganne said, Sam did tell Dean that he had no control over the memories. Dean either didn't believe Sam or didn't think that made a difference.

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Instead, Sam point-blank told him that family - and Dean is one of only two people in the world who qualified as that - family just didn't mean the same thing to him. And he did it when his brother was clearly and obviously hurt. Maybe the truth could've waited a bit.

I don't think Sam realized what he was saying at the time. It wasn't like he deliberately chose to hurt Dean with his words, in my opinion. Sam just wasn't thinking. He was trying to tell Dean that he couldn't control this. He was apologizing, and trying to explain, but Dean kept attacking with "you didn't think of it like that" (throwing Sam's previous words at him) and "your heaven is bailing on your family!" So Sam made a mistake, and said that he never got the crusts cut off his P, B & J and didn't look at family the way that Dean did. Sam was obviously upset afterwards, and tried to assure Dean that it was he and Dean against the world now, telling Dean that it was. But Dean just said "is it?" apparently not believing Sam despite Sam's sincerity.

So yes, Sam made a mistake, but it wasn't like he deliberately hurt Dean with his "truth bomb" any more than Dean deliberately crushed Sam with his "obviously your happy going to college memory means you don't care about me" accusations. In my opinion, both things came out of raw emotion. And before they could resolve all of that, Zachariah attacked, so everything got left hanging.

[Reganne]

8 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Did he look up to him or was he brainwashed? I think Dean did love him. Considering part of Sam's happy memory was Dean being harshly punished (and IMO abused by John) for Sam running away, I think that says more to me about how Dean really remembers John deep down inside. That doesn't mean he didn't love him either. It's a pretty messed up situation with Dean and John. IMO

If John was so horribly abusive why would it be so wrong for Sam to want to leave and go to college and start his whole life? Though I do wonder how the love of family... not just love of his brother (he specifically says family) was instilled so strongly in Dean of it didn't include his father.

6 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

 

I don't think Sam realized what he was saying at the time. It wasn't like he deliberately chose to hurt Dean with his words, in my opinion. Sam just wasn't thinking. He was trying to tell Dean that he couldn't control this. He was apologizing, and trying to explain, but Dean kept attacking with "you didn't think of it like that" (throwing Sam's previous words at him) and "your heaven is bailing on your family!" So Sam made a mistake, and said that he never got the crusts cut off his P, B & J and didn't look at family the way that Dean did. Sam was obviously upset afterwards, and tried to assure Dean that it was he and Dean against the world now, telling Dean that it was. But Dean just said "is it?" apparently not believing Sam despite Sam's sincerity.

So yes, Sam made a mistake, but it wasn't like he deliberately hurt Dean with his "truth bomb" any more than Dean deliberately crushed Sam with his "obviously your happy going to college memory means you don't care about me" accusations. In my opinion, both things came out of raw emotion. And before they could resolve all of that, Zachariah attacked, so everything got left hanging.

I agree with this.

[catrox14]

10 hours ago, Reganne said:

If John was so horribly abusive why would it be so wrong for Sam to want to leave and go to college and start his whole life? Though I do wonder how the love of family... not just love of his brother (he specifically says family) was instilled so strongly in Dean of it didn't include his father.

I ...didn't say it was horribly wrong for Sam to go to college? Are you asking me? Or are  you asking on behalf of Dean? Sorry I don't quite follow your point here.

Sam had the prerogative to go to college. IMO, Sam did it in a crappy way. He dropped a bomb on them and he didn't have to do it that way. He could have been preparing them for his departure and not just left. IMO, Dean, whether anyone likes it or not, felt abandoned by Sam. Should he have felt abandoned? I can't say if he should or shouldn't only that he did.

I ....also never said, that Dean didn't love John...I said he wasn't in Dean's happy memories. And yes, often times children do love their abusive parent. It's a complicated and complex situation. It's not black and white in this regard. I think John was abusive with Dean by parentifying Dean, taking away his childhood and using him as "Daddy's Blunt Little Instrument". Conversely, I never said, John didn't love his sons. People can love someone they abuse especially if they don't realize what they are doing is abusive or harmful. IMO, John had no idea what he was doing to Dean was abuse. I mean on some level he knew it was wrong, given his apology to Dean before he died. So to me, Dean not having John in his happy memories actually made all the sense in the world.

I believe that if John had ever raised his hand to Sam, Dean would have interceded. That said, I don't believe John ever hit Sam, but I do believe he hit Dean after Sam ran away. I can't imagine why Dean would have reacted with basic horror and revulsion at recollecting "When Dad got home". Dean looked like he was remembering being severely punished. And no, I don't think Dean would have reacted that way to a memory of being grounded or losing privileges.

As to how Dean acquired the love of family? He had nurturing love for at 4 years from Mary and John before John went sideways after Mary died. And Sam had 6 months of nurturing love from Mary and John. And nurturing and protective love from Dean after Mary died, and protective love from John. I don't think John was capable of nurturing anyone after Mary died. IMO, Dean was the nurturer after Mary died.

Edited April 10, 2018 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

IMO, Sam did it in a crappy way. He dropped a bomb on them and he didn't have to do it that way. He could have been preparing them for his departure and not just left.

In my opinion, this is something we still don't know for sure. I've not seen or even heard details referred to onscreen as to what went down when Sam left for college. I guess Sam might have somehow been able to keep from John that he was applying to college(s), but it seems to me it would've been somewhat risky that John wouldn't find the evidence - since I'm pretty sure they got mail at various post office boxes rather than an actual address, and it was likely that John controlled access to those boxes. It also seems like John would know how well Sam was doing in school and likely have asked Sam why he was studying so hard at some point. John might not have been the greatest father, but I don't think he was entirely unobservant. Though I actually think it's even more unlikely that Dean wouldn't have known something, since he was likely there even more than John in terms of Sam's life and habits.

But even in the flashback here we don't see or hear anything that would tell us what went down that night. Sam might have mentioned it before to John, but John dismissed it or just said "no, we don't have the money for that, Sam" and figured that Sam would forget about it / give up / whatever since they had no money for him to go to college anyway. Now the full ride - that I can imagine Sam springing on John. I can even imagine that that might've been what started the blow out. Sam mentioning college again, John saying - maybe with a sigh and for the dozenth time - that Sam knew they didn't have the money for that, and Sam saying something to the effect of "but guess what Dad? You don't have to worry about that, because I got a full scholarship!" In my opinion, that would've pissed John off even more than Sam springing it on him, because he would've considered it a closed matter, and Sam applying for scholarships to get the money to be going behind his back (and maybe even wounding John's pride) - not to mention maybe risky, since people might check into their background, etc.

But this is just a potential theory on my part. I don't think we actually have any idea what went down in terms of what John knew ahead of time, whether Dean knew anything or what side of the issue he fell on, or whether or not Dean was even there when it went down. Dean's part in it has never been discussed as far as I know. I don't remember Sam saying anything like "well you could have taken my side" or Dean saying "you didn't have to spring it on us like that." So as far as I know, we the viewers, don't know what actually happened to say that Sam "dropped a bomb" on the family. I think it would just be a theory.

[DittyDotDot]

8 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

In my opinion, this is something we still don't know for sure. I've not seen or even heard details referred to onscreen as to what went down when Sam left for college.

My theory has always been that Sam got the letter saying he got a full ride and, yeah, kinda sprung it on John, but because he was proud of it and thought John would probably be proud too. But, John not being someone who could deal with surprises well, told Sam he couldn't go and it probably kicked of an epic back and forth fight ending in John telling Sam if he was going to leave, don't come back...and Sam being epic-ally pissed obliged.

I'm guessing Sam wasn't planning this for weeks, but applied and was surprised he not only got in, but got a full ride. I think everything just exploded and Dean was caught in the middle of everything...like usual. I think what hurt Dean more wasn't that Sam did indeed go when John told him too--because I can only imagine Dean being proud of Sam finding a way to go to college--but that Sam assumed Dean was a part of John's ultimatum. But, at 18 years old--and a stubborn Winchester--one may not see things very clearly. 

[AwesomO4000]

11 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

My theory has always been that Sam got the letter saying he got a full ride and, yeah, kinda sprung it on John, but because he was proud of it and thought John would probably be proud too. But, John not being someone who could deal with surprises well, told Sam he couldn't go and it probably kicked of an epic back and forth fight ending in John telling Sam if he was going to leave, don't come back...and Sam being epic-ally pissed obliged.

I'm guessing Sam wasn't planning this for weeks, but applied and was surprised he not only got in, but got a full ride. I think everything just exploded and Dean was caught in the middle of everything...like usual. I think what hurt Dean more wasn't that Sam did indeed go when John told him too--because I can only imagine Dean being proud of Sam finding a way to go to college--but that Sam assumed Dean was a part of John's ultimatum. But, at 18 years old--and a stubborn Winchester--one may not see things very clearly. 

I think this very much makes sense... and yes, in my scenario also, Sam was proud of the scholarship and thought that John would be proud / happy / relieved that Sam had found a way to get the money to go to college. But your scenario for springing the whole thing on John also makes sense... especially if, for example, a teacher or guidance counselor encouraged Sam to apply and sam was then surprised himself that the scholarship came through.

But I think as of this episode, I don't remember us having any actual clues as to what had really happened.

[catrox14]

42 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

So as far as I know, we the viewers, don't know what actually happened to say that Sam "dropped a bomb" on the family. I think it would just be a theory.

I'm going by Dean's emotional reactions to Sam leaving that night. I can't fathom that Dean would have been so distraught about Sam leaving if he had known about it. I've always been of the mind that Sam did most all of this on his own, under the radar. Sure Dean and  John knew Sam did well in school, but that doesn't equate to them knowing that Sam had gotten a full ride and was planning to go.

[AwesomO4000]

16 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm going by Dean's emotional reactions to Sam leaving that night. I can't fathom that Dean would have been so distraught about Sam leaving if he had known about it. I've always been of the mind that Sam did most all of this on his own, under the radar. Sure Dean and  John knew Sam did well in school, but that doesn't equate to them knowing that Sam had gotten a full ride and was planning to go.

Even if Sam didn't tell them beforehand though, I don't see why it necessarily would have to be Sam planning and scheming behind everyone's back and then just springing it on John and Dean. I think @DittyDotDot's scenario is just as plausible. We don't have any proof that Sam was somehow shady about what he was doing, and as I said, I would be surprised if Sam could've done a whole lot of planning and scheming behind Dean's back without Dean knowing something was up. As far as I knew, Dean knew Sam pretty well, and would know if he was hiding something. I'm not imagining that teen Sam was all that stealthy enough to entirely fool Dean or that he wouldn't want to share any of it with Dean either.

I'm also not sure that Dean still wouldn't be upset about Sam leaving even if he had some idea beforehand, because we have pretty good evidence that Dean was very invested in keeping the family together. I think a big blowout between John and Sam resulting in what could be a long term break, in my opinion, would be enough for Dean to view it as one of the "worsts nights of his life" as he said during the memory, because as far as it appeared, Dean had invested a lot of time and energy into keeping the family together. Dean was very invested in viewing their little family as a good one and a whole one... and even things like seeing Sam's Thanksgiving memory that would question Dean's image of their family or make it seem as "less than" was enough to tick him off in this episode.

And even though it was a shifter and not really Dean, I often wonder if some of what the shifter said had a little bit of truth to it. That even if Dean could be proud of Sam going to college, he could also be annoyed that Sam left their family and left Dean behind to watch after John. If there was a little bit of that, I don't think that sentiment would change whether Dean knew beforehand or not. I think he'd still feel left behind either way.

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Even if Sam didn't tell them beforehand though, I don't see why it necessarily would have to be Sam planning and scheming behind everyone's back and then just springing it on John and Dean.

 We can agree to disagree on how we think it went down. :)

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

 We can agree to disagree on how we think it went down. :)

I think the canon that it had been a couple years since Dean and Sam had spoken before 1x01 speaks to Sam leaving on less than pleasant terms with Dean, regardless of John's ultimatum. So yeah, I believe he just dropped a bomb on them both. Dean showed in Scarecrow that he could let Sam go, that he respected his independence, and I don't think that was something new.

[AwesomO4000]

39 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I think the canon that it had been a couple years since Dean and Sam had spoken before 1x01 speaks to Sam leaving on less than pleasant terms with Dean, regardless of John's ultimatum. So yeah, I believe he just dropped a bomb on them both. Dean showed in Scarecrow that he could let Sam go, that he respected his independence, and I don't think that was something new.

And I still don't see the proof. How do we know Sam and Dean didn't have a disagreement later? Maybe Dean was trying to talk Sam into coming back and Sam didn't want to deal with that. Or maybe after trying to make both worlds work for a while, it was just too hard for Sam, and he thought a clean break would be easier and less stressful. The canon seems to say that they did keep in touch for at least a year or more*** so that would seem to say that Sam didn't break entirely from Dean at first.

And just because Dean let Sam go in "Scarecrow" to me, doesn't say that it wasn't something at least a little bit new. It could just as believably have been - to me anyway - that maybe time and experience had brought Dean to that point later on after John had left Dean behind too and made him question John's judgement. And it doesn't mean that Dean wouldn't later on show just a bit of "you abandoned the family" again later on - including this episode - either.

I guess I just don't buy into the show's sometimes "message" that everything would've been just fine if not for Sam messing up the family somehow. And I guess I'm also just not as quick to assume that 18 year old Sam was the bad guy here, thoughtlessly scheming behind his family's back and callously springing his desire to go to college on poor, unsuspecting John and pushing supposed parent John to kick him out of the house. Especially without any canon evidence from this - or any other episode - to support that kind of scenario.

*** I know there is some question as to the 2 years being a mistake, but at present it is canon that it was 2 years, so...

Edited April 11, 2018 by AwesomO4000

[Iju]

On 09/04/2018 at 11:24 AM, DeeDee79 said:

The kid flashbacks in this episode were way better than the ones in After School Special. Watch it! ?

from what you were talking about, i feel it in my bones that the flashbacks are better^^

On 09/04/2018 at 11:42 AM, sarthaz said:

Wait, what?!? There's no skipping in Supernatural.  Stop whatever it is you're doing, unless you are literally administering CPR, and watch it.

"as well"? Dafuq?

;)

yeah, we skipped the episode with famine because we were eating pizza and it was really gross in the beginning of it >.<

Edited April 11, 2018 by Iju

[DeeDee79]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I think the canon that it had been a couple years since Dean and Sam had spoken before 1x01 speaks to Sam leaving on less than pleasant terms with Dean, regardless of John's ultimatum. So yeah, I believe he just dropped a bomb on them both. Dean showed in Scarecrow that he could let Sam go, that he respected his independence, and I don't think that was something new.

Agreed.

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I guess I just don't buy into the show's sometimes "message" that everything would've been just fine if not for Sam messing up the family somehow. And I guess I'm also just not as quick to assume that 18 year old Sam was the bad guy here, thoughtlessly scheming behind his family's back and callously springing his desire to go to college on poor, unsuspecting John and pushing supposed parent John to kick him out of the house. Especially without any canon evidence from this - or any other episode - to support that kind of scenario.

 I think he did it to avoid confrontations and the risk that they might try to talk him out of doing.  So he decided to keep it to himself until the night he left. I don't think he was trying to hurt them.

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, Iju said:

yeah, we skipped the episode with famine because we were eating pizza and it was really gross in the beginning of it >.<

Oh, that's too bad, because this was also a very good and somewhat pivotal episode. It really did set up both Sam's*** and Dean's mindsets coming into the final episodes (including this episode.) Plus you missed the cupid who is both adorable and funny - for us - somewhat horrifying for Sam, Dean, and Castiel. ; )

Castiel: It's their handshake.
Dean: Well, I don't like it!
Castiel: Nobody likes it.

Really: go watch this episode.

*** It's a good Sam episode.

[AwesomO4000]

28 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 I think he did it to avoid confrontations and the risk that they might try to talk him out of doing.  So he decided to keep it to himself until the night he left. I don't think he was trying to hurt them.

Ah, okay. I guess I was getting different vibes than were intended then.

But I still tend to think it was more of a DittyDotDot scenario. In general, Sam sucks at lying / deceiving long term even now (see season 4), so I can't imagine he was much better at it as a teenager.

[catrox14]

44 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

But I still tend to think it was more of a DittyDotDot scenario. In general, Sam sucks at lying / deceiving long term even now (see season 4), so I can't imagine he was much better at it as a teenager.

I think Sam can be plenty deceptive when he really wants to. He did lie to Jessica for the entire relationship about his life.

[AwesomO4000]

True, but Jessica didn't know Sam like Dean does. They loved each other, but Dean pretty much raised Sam. Sam was starting fresh with Jessica, and I think she would have a harder time knowing that Sam was omitting things if she didn't know him when he wasn't. Not saying that you're not right, just that I don't remember Dean ever being fooled by Sam for long ...or even short term. Dean generally knows pretty quickly when Sam is either lying or hiding something.

Even in this episode, Dean knew immediately that Sam was lying about not recognizing the Stanford night memory and that Sam didn't want to get out of there because he was all gung ho on the mission, but because he didn't want Dean to recognize what the memory was.

[Reganne]

17 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I ...didn't say it was horribly wrong for Sam to go to college? Are you asking me? Or are  you asking on behalf of Dean? Sorry I don't quite follow your point here.

Sam had the prerogative to go to college. IMO, Sam did it in a crappy way. He dropped a bomb on them and he didn't have to do it that way. He could have been preparing them for his departure and not just left. IMO, Dean, whether anyone likes it or not, felt abandoned by Sam. Should he have felt abandoned? I can't say if he should or shouldn't only that he did.

I ....also never said, that Dean didn't love John...I said he wasn't in Dean's happy memories. And yes, often times children do love their abusive parent. It's a complicated and complex situation. It's not black and white in this regard. I think John was abusive with Dean by parentifying Dean, taking away his childhood and using him as "Daddy's Blunt Little Instrument". Conversely, I never said, John didn't love his sons. People can love someone they abuse especially if they don't realize what they are doing is abusive or harmful. IMO, John had no idea what he was doing to Dean was abuse. I mean on some level he knew it was wrong, given his apology to Dean before he died. So to me, Dean not having John in his happy memories actually made all the sense in the world.

I believe that if John had ever raised his hand to Sam, Dean would have interceded. That said, I don't believe John ever hit Sam, but I do believe he hit Dean after Sam ran away. I can't imagine why Dean would have reacted with basic horror and revulsion at recollecting "When Dad got home". Dean looked like he was remembering being severely punished. And no, I don't think Dean would have reacted that way to a memory of being grounded or losing privileges.

As to how Dean acquired the love of family? He had nurturing love for at 4 years from Mary and John before John went sideways after Mary died. And Sam had 6 months of nurturing love from Mary and John. And nurturing and protective love from Dean after Mary died, and protective love from John. I don't think John was capable of nurturing anyone after Mary died. IMO, Dean was the nurturer after Mary died.

 

I was asking in concerns to Dean and this episode in particular.  As far as how it went down, I have to agree with Awesom0400.  No one really knows how it went down other then John saying if Sam left, then he was to stay gone.  However, I don't think it would have really mattered when it was brought up or how.  If it was indeed a timing issue and the problem was simply a bomb dropped out of nowhere, I think that is the issue Dean would have brought up when discussing it with Sam.  Instead it has been brought up as abandoning his family.  Not that Sam didn't give them enough time to process him going to college.

Edited April 11, 2018 by Reganne

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Reganne said:

Instead it has been brought up as abandoning his family.  Not that Sam didn't give them enough time to process him going to college.

And sometimes the abandonment is felt far more deeply when it comes out of the blue than if someone has time to process the separation. It's, obviously more complicated for the Winchesters because of their weird life.

[Reganne]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

And sometimes the abandonment is felt far more deeply when it comes out of the blue than if someone has time to process the separation. It's, obviously more complicated for the Winchesters because of their weird life.

With the way Dean is when Sam keeps things from him, I have a hard time believing he wouldn't have brought up how mad he was that Sam kept it from him, especially if it involved him leaving.  If that is what truly bothered Dean about Sam leaving, I still think he would have said so at some point.  Don't get me wrong, it could have came out of the blue, but I don't think that was Dean's main issue with it.  He's never mentioned anything other than abandonment which he never had a problem expressing.

Edited April 11, 2018 by Reganne

[catrox14]

Just now, Reganne said:

With the way Dean is when Sam keeps things from him, I have a hard time believing he wouldn't have brought up how hurt he was that Sam kept it from him, especially if it involved him leaving.  If that is what truly bothered Dean about Sam leaving, I still think he would have said so at some point.  Don't get me wrong, it could have came out of the blue, but I don't think that was Dean's main issue with it.  He's never mentioned anything other than abandonment.  

I understand your POV. I don't agree with it. And since we have no idea what happened off screen, I'm sticking with my interpretation :)

[Reganne]

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I understand your POV. I don't agree with it. And since we have no idea what happened off screen, I'm sticking with my interpretation :)

I didn't expect you to agree.  I was just further clarifying my point.  

Edited April 11, 2018 by Reganne

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, Reganne said:

With the way Dean is when Sam keeps things from him, I have a hard time believing he wouldn't have brought up how mad he was that Sam kept it from him, especially if it involved him leaving.  If that is what truly bothered Dean about Sam leaving, I still think he would have said so at some point.  Don't get me wrong, it could have came out of the blue, but I don't think that was Dean's main issue with it.  He's never mentioned anything other than abandonment which he never had a problem expressing.

Maybe that was the beginning of him having a hard time with Sam keeping things from him, and why the subsequent lies and lies of omission were so much harder to take.

[Reganne]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Maybe that was the beginning of him having a hard time with Sam keeping things from him, and why the subsequent lies and lies of omission were so much harder to take.

I guess we will never truly know.

Edited April 12, 2018 by Reganne

[Wayward Son]

On 10/04/2018 at 11:13 PM, catrox14 said:

I believe that if John had ever raised his hand to Sam, Dean would have interceded. 

I totally disagree with this. It’s been made clear that Dean was John’s good little soldier growing up. IMO Dean wouldn’t have interferred if John were to throw a punch at Sam for too much sass growing up, or as punishment for running away. 

 

Now if John had ever totally lost it and it looked like John would have beaten Sam to death Dean would have interferred, but throwing a punch or two during an argument wouldn’t have been protested IMO. It would have been seen as an acceptable form of corporal punishment within the context of their twisted upbringings.

 

Plus just look at how often adult Sam and Dean resort to using their fists when arguing with one another. They’re not the type of family to be afraid to turn physical during an argument. 

[The Companion]

Nobody could have given me a heads up? Hey, Companion, hold on to your postpartum hormones, cause you are going to spend a couple of episodes ugly crying. Y'all couldn't warn me from the future? 😆

I cannot handle the sweetness of the fireworks and the looks on the boys' faces when they see Mary. The happy memories are at the same time really sad. I agree that Dean would have shown up at some point. It does feel like manipulation. Real memories but selective. Particularly when we get the night Sam left rather than, when he arrived at school. The memory of leaving may have been satisfying in some way, but I don't know that it was relive over and over happy. Does that make sense? While it feels cultivated, it doesn't feel like Zachariah's work. I could see someone else being behind it. 

So heaven is What Dreams May Come. That seems about right and pretty lonely. I mean, it would be hard to have people, because they throw a wrench into everything. They are a wild card. Even in your perfect day, the love of your life is still going to chew loudly. 😆 I hope the memories can change or you can in some way change them. Eternity is a long time to replay even an entire lifetime of memories. The family kept talking at the table as if Sam was there, implying that you would have the same thing over and over. Yikes.

I am sad for both of the guys here. I do think Dean's reaction at the end would have more impact with the proper episode order. 

Oh and I was happy to see Pamela okay but that conversation was bizarre. It either did not work or something else was going on. Again, I am open to manipulation (maybe God isn't as out as advertised) but it doesn't feel like Zachariah's work.