The Relationships of Sleepy Hollow: "I'm Not A Stranger to Complications"

[HalcyonDays]

Post Goffman Stress Disorder. PGSD. We've all been suffering from it.

 

I keep forgetting to mention, but I love this. PGSD. Because it's so dead-on. Many of our viewpoints are so clouded/tainted or at least negatively influenced by PGSD, mine included.

 

So it's really nice to see people giving CC a chance, or seeing a lot of postive comments in the threads now about season 3. We are all working through our PGSD.

[jhlipton]

I am on tenterhooks awaiting the next Nullification of Abby.

__

 

Not only are we seeing the "un-Nullification  of Abbie", we're also seeing the un-Nullification of Jenny and of not-Frank Reynolds.  The show now has several women of color attached (as writers and directors) and I think it shows (other than in a major misstep with Boobsy and Grace).

[phoenics]

Not only are we seeing the "un-Nullification  of Abbie", we're also seeing the un-Nullification of Jenny and of not-Frank Reynolds.  The show now has several women of color attached (as writers and directors) and I think it shows (other than in a major misstep with Boobsy and Grace).

So agree - and you know what's awesome? They've scaled Boobsy back... which shows that they are learning from their mistakes.

If only Goffman hadn't been given the reins (fully) on this show in S1B and S2. I hate what he did to our show. It's wrong that he's even allowed to work in Hollywood after that.

[jhlipton]

If only Goffman hadn't been given the reins (fully) on this show in S1B and S2. I hate what he did to our show. It's wrong that he's even allowed to work in Hollywood after that.

 

It's interesting --iMDB shows him as executive or co-executive producer of Limitless, but Wikipedia doesn't show any involvement by Goffman at all.  

[Julia]

IMDB shows him as a co-executive producer on Limitless with 11 executive producers, 10 co-executive producers, 4 producers and a co-producer, and he's written one episode. Which makes me wonder if Mssrs Kurzman and Orci, who are listed as executive producers for both shows, didn't throw him a title to get him to go quietly, because it doesn't sound as if they're exactly light on producers.

Of course, it also makes me wonder how much of what he did on Sleepy Hollow was without their buy in, if they still want him working on their shows after that debacle.

It looks as if only the executive producers are on Wikipedia.

.

[Indi]

Goffman was their fall guy and was rewarded for it. I don't doubt for a minute they were all in the same CFD boat.

[Yolapukka]

 

Goffman was their fall guy and was rewarded for it. I don't doubt for a minute they were all in the same CFD boat.

 

From what I've read, Henry was always intended to be Jeremy. Even without the Katrina factor, turning the sin-eater into Sonny-boy Whiny-pants was a major misstep, so yeah there was always going to be CFD. Whatever was planned for Katrina, I doubt the original intent was that she eclipse all others, but that was certainly Goffman's direction by his own words in numerous interviews. I don't think he's a fall guy for (incompetently) doing what he wanted, whether or not K&O were completely on board with "all hail Katrina" from the beginning.

[HalcyonDays]

From what I've read, Henry was always intended to be Jeremy. Even without the Katrina factor, turning the sin-eater into Sonny-boy Whiny-pants was a major misstep, so yeah there was always going to be CFD.

 

Yeah, they knew that early on. The problem was the writing. Two steps forward, four steps back, all while never confronting the characters and allowing whininess to rule the day. They could've have kept the focus on Katrina, but built on her becoming evil, all while Team Witness is getting pissed off and calling her out on her inaction/inability to magic/dubious morals and behaviours. If they did that, it wouldn't have been so bad (but she's still have to be killed off at the end of season 2).

 

Goffman was the fallguy for sure. This is like a typical old boys club. He took the fall for the show, but obviously was looking way before. I think he was encouraged to find something else, looked and found something, then was allowed to "pursue other opportunities". The Hollywood Writers club is a small one - and there are also union rules to consider. If Goffman helped with some story ideas or some writing, he'd had to be given credit somehow. And I doubt he looks bad in Hollywood's eyes - he was hired by another network quite quickly. We know how badly he screwed up SH, but those sheltered in the network offices may not. Plus, he "knows people". That's all one really needs in the real world.

 

For the record, I know many believe Orlando was hard done by FOX, and possible Kurtzman/Orci. Maybe, but if so, he hasn't held any hard feelings for them and vice versa. He just started a company with the former President of K/O Paper Productions, and Orci serves as Executive Creative Director. See. Small world.

 

Legion of Creatives - About

[DeLurker]

Exactly. But now that I've been ruminating on this story arc and Abbie's state of mind for five long days, I wonder if Abbie feels there's anyone who would be able to handle what she's going through. Maybe Sheriff Corbin, if he were still alive. But even he never shared with Abbie everything he'd been doing over the years with Jenny and investigating the supernatural. So their relationship was never as open and honest as it could've been.

 

And then there's Crane. He's certainly become more attentive to other people's needs this season, but Abbie can't have forgotten him as the whiny, selfish man-child from last season who consistently chose his witch-wife over his fellow Witness. The Witness with whom he supposedly has this eternal bond. Oh, and what about the liar who betrayed her and used a map he said he never would in order to save said witch-wife? I know he ultimately killed Katrina to save Abbie, but then he followed that up by running away and leaving his fellow Witness without any contact for 8 months.

 

Maybe Abbie's feeling some of that. Yes, Crane came to Never-Ending Storyland to try to save her, but he's also the person who has consistently thrown her opinions and feelings by the wayside whenever he felt his needs were more important. And he abandoned her for 8 months when he felt sad. Maybe Abbie doesn't trust Crane emotionally, and I'd have to agree that he hasn't done much to earn her emotional trust. 

From the episode thread (Kindred Spirits );

While all that is sadly true, I have to just pretend the Horrors of Katrina never existed - otherwise, I can no longer enjoy the show.  I would have left when it become the Katrina Crane Show of Shows and never came back.  The former PTB crafted a "history" that no one could make palatable nor redeemable.

 

But I really love NB and TM's acting choices and am enjoying S3.  I may be overcrediting TM, but his interactions with both Katrina and Busty Ross have been chilly at best and I think this was by choice, not lack of ability on his part.  I think he thinks that the show was going in the wrong direction with both Katrina and Busty, so he said his lines but that was all.  Any heat had to be brought from the respective actress(s) and KW had none and NR is laughably bad.  The guy had charm and warmth with Yolanda, the disembodied voice, a stapler, Caroline (I think that was her name - the reenactment seamtress),...not to mention melting my tv just while looking at Abbie's photo.

 

NB too - her classic eyerolls in S2 were the highlights for me.  Even with so few lines, she communicated so much more than KW ever did.

 

So far my own sanity, I have to give them the benefit of Selective Amnesia.

Edited February 24, 2016 by DeLurker

[topanga]

So far my own sanity, I have to give them the benefit of Selective Amnesia.

Crane wants to be Abbie's rock, and I certainly want him to be. But can Abbie make herself vulnerable to Crane, enough to allow him to be her rock? Does she have enough selective amnesia?

[Helena Dax]

 

And then there's Crane. He's certainly become more attentive to other people's needs this season, but Abbie can't have forgotten him as the whiny, selfish man-child from last season who consistently chose his witch-wife over his fellow Witness

 

Personally, I think that's the way some people in the audience sees Ichabod, but not the way Abbie sees him. I don't have the feeling that season 2 has any lingering weight or influence in season 3. The reason behind Ichabod's absence is clear, imo. The writers didn't want us to deal with Ichabod's pain over Katrina's death, so a leap forward was a smart choice. And they couldn't tell us "oh, yes, they were together, but nothing happened during those months". So they made him go away and didn't think the audience could see that as another bertrayal.

 

I rewatched the first episode yesterday. She didn't want to talk with Corbin about her reasons to leave SH. I think Abbie's just reserved and finds difficult to open up even with the closest people to her. I really doubt she's thinking about Katrina or anything that happened last year.

[topanga]

I rewatched the first episode yesterday. She didn't want to talk with Corbin about her reasons to leave SH. I think Abbie's just reserved and finds difficult to open up even with the closest people to her. I really doubt she's thinking about Katrina or anything that happened last year.

I don't think she's necessarily thinking about Katrina. But for Abbie to open up to someone, she would have to feel totally safe and supported by that person. She was able to open up to Corbin a little bit over the years because he was the one person who accepted her, flaws and all, and never abandoned her. And he made her feel safe. 

 

Her relationship with Crane has elements of that safety, but Abbie, being the guarded person she is, doesn't feel comfortable telling Crane everything about her experience in the Catacombs--how she almost went crazy being alone for 10 months, and how she subconsciously remembers the symbols she drew on the wall during those 10 months--and that she continues to draw it. Because to Abbie, vulnerability equals weakness, and one thing life has taught her is that she can never let herself be weak.

 

Abbie saying to Crane "You were my Wilson," was her joking way of telling him that thoughts of him were the only things that kept her from going completely mad--although he seemed to have no idea what she was talking about. They should watch Castaway together. Although I wonder if Abbie would be able to handle it. 

[Miss Dee]

Definitely not. She'd start shaking or something, and Ichabod would have to envelop her in his arms and hold her close so she could work through it in comfort.

....What?

[topanga]

I'm not mad at you, Miss Dee. I'll start the popcorn...

[topanga]

Pasted from the Episode thread: 

 

I can't think of another show where I 'shipped.  But I do ship Abbie and Ich.  Part of it comes from speculation that the behind the scenes stuff was putting a really fun, unique show on the fast track to Suckville and NB and TM didn't seem to support that direction...hence, epic Abbie Eye Rolls and the most tepid love for Katrina.

I sensed that NB wasn't happy about the direction of Season 2, but TM, too? 

 

I always thought the lack of chemistry between Ichabod and Katrina was a result of both actors' performances and with the simple lack of chemistry between the two of them, which just isn't there sometimes, no matter how hard the actors try. Ichabod and Katrina never had great chemistry, even in Season 1. 

 

My lingering question: Did Ichabod and Katrina ever do it last season? i.e., have marital relations? If someone answered this before, I'm sorry I missed your post. I really hate the thought of it, but they were married, and Ichabod is still a mortal man, despite his 200 year slumber. I guess I wonder if he has normal manly urges. Because doesn't the presence or absence of normal manly urges affect his potential future with Abbie? 

Edited March 7, 2016 by topanga

[DeLurker]

I took the lack of anything remotely affectionate or lusty between Katrina and Ich to reflect TM's civil disobedience to TPTB. The man had the ability to radiate charm & charisma and can say oodles with a look, but none of that ever showed up with his beloved wifey. Katia W. Is a beautiful woman, but her acting (or the directing) was dreary and lacked any conviction.

I don't remember if it was shown or implied that they had marital relations or not. But most of S2 is forgettable.

[Enero]

^ I see this often in many fandoms, but I really balk at the idea of actors deliberately undermining their work and the work of TPTB because they don't agree with a storyline. Despite the entertainment value, at the end of the day acting is their job. I just think about my work and how even if I don't necessarily like the direction of the company I'm still going to show up for work and do my job. That's not to say that actors don't deliberately tank storylines they hate. I just find that it would be completely unprofessional to do this and hate to think of my favorites behaving in such a way.

Pasted from the Episode thread:

My lingering question: Did Ichabod and Katrina ever do it last season? i.e., have marital relations? If someone answered this before, I'm sorry I missed your post. I really hate the thought of it, but they were married, and Ichabod is still a mortal man, despite his 200 year slumber. I guess I wonder if he has normal manly urges. Because doesn't the presence or absence of normal manly urges affect his potential future with Abbie?

I vaguely remember a flashback scene in S2 that clearly showed they'd been together. But in the present we never knew if they were in fact intimate. I seem to recall a scene in Heartless with them sitting on the bed fully clothed seemingly close to going there but were interrupted by Abbie. I'm sure they did do the deed at some point though. Edited March 7, 2016 by Enero

[Miss Dee]

Yeah, I'd assume that they must have slept together in the present at some point. I'm not saying that the writers couldn't concoct a scenario where they wouldn't - a combination of readjusting to each other after time apart, a growing awareness of being separate in heart and mind, the deeds of dastardly demons constantly interrupting their free time, and not all that long a period of time spent together between Katrina's escape from purgatory and her death...all could have conspired together to prevent Katrina and Crane from getting it on in the time they had together.

But unless the writers decide to stress something like that occurring, I don't think it's all that logical or likely.Nor would I find it necessary. Crane and Katrina were husband and wife; having sex after being apart for so long would be a reasonable response to coming together again.

This would bother me more if the story still had Abbie in a drought, shall we say, which is a big factor as to why many of us were irritated to infuriated over that whole storyline in Season 2. But the story made clear that while Ichabod went walkabout for a year to come to terms with everything - and, until told otherwise, I'm going to assume someone as fastidious as our Rebellious Bookworm probably wasn't bedding people along the way - Abbie had a very fine romance of her own. Which we got to actually hear about (that romantic weekend hidden away with Daniel, which sounded very intriguing), if not see.

[HalcyonDays]

I sensed that NB wasn't happy about the direction of Season 2, but TM, too?

 

I don't think he was happy either. There was an article that popped up around the end of season 2, discussing the episode Awakenings. Remember in the episode, he confronts Katrina and Henry and at one point, yells at Henry that he "Didn't even KNOW you existed!"  and he mentions how he approached Metzner (who wrote the episode) and thanked him profusely for writing that line. Because he - like most of us - knew it was absolutely ridiculous that Henry/jeremy blame Crane for anything. Guy was "dead" and buried. What's he supposed to do? I also remember Crane being pretty energetic whenever he had to get angry at Katrina for something stupid she did.

 

The writers didn't want us to deal with Ichabod's pain over Katrina's death, so a leap forward was a smart choice.

 

I think people have forgotten how much people complained about Crane and his "manpain". The only way to avoid him mourning was to have a time jump and it makes perfect sense to me. Notice how they avoid even saying Katrina's name on the show.

 

I don't remember if it was shown or implied that they had marital relations or not. But most of S2 is forgettable.

 

I just remember them sitting on the bed, fully clothes, and she was leaning on him, but his body language was stiff and reserved as hell. That was always such a disconnect for me, that we always had Crane saying how she was his "love", yet his body language was completely different a lot of the times. TM is very deliberate in his acting choices and he adds little nuances that one may miss on first viewing. So I assume he knew what he was doing (grin).

[jhlipton]

I sensed that NB wasn't happy about the direction of Season 2, but TM, too? 

 

I know Orlando threw a bunch of shade on his Twitter and blog, and I seem to recall Mison being circumspect but obviously not liking the stories.  After the season was over, he was a lot more forthright as I recall.

 

 

I think people have forgotten how much people complained about Crane and his "manpain".

 

I for one have not and am damn glad that they slid over Season 2 with a single comment.

[spaceghostess]

My lingering question: Did Ichabod and Katrina ever do it last season? i.e., have marital relations? If someone answered this before, I'm sorry I missed your post. I really hate the thought of it, but they were married, and Ichabod is still a mortal man, despite his 200 year slumber. I guess I wonder if he has normal manly urges. Because doesn't the presence or absence of normal manly urges affect his potential future with Abbie.

 

You've hit upon one of my many HATE! moments of season 2. Did I want evidence that Crane and The Wigstand Did Sex? No. No, I did not. However, why in all that's holy did the two of them have to be lying on the bed, fully clothed, ramrod-stiff (and not in a good way) watching The Bachelor, or whatever the hell? It was soo awkward and just not what anyone--from their their time period or ours--would do. It rates up there with those scenes on Sex in the City where Carrie would be in bed with a dude, post-coitus, and wearing her bra. I realize SJP wasn't doing topless, but just no. Not natural. Not genuine. Just awkward and lame. As much as I couldn't bear The Wigstand and the CFD that came with her, I would certainly have understood (hated, but understood) Crane wanting to have sex with his wife. I'd rather have had it alluded to (not shown, heaven forfend!) than to have seen them lying stupidly on the bed like that. Although I do choose to fanwank Katrina's fascination with garbage t.v. as indicative of her vapidity and latent evil. Oh, and one other gripe: No human woman--especially not the supposedly proto-feminist type the writers wanted us to believe The Wigstand was-- would choose a corset as everyday wear an age when she didn't have to. 

Edited March 8, 2016 by spaceghostess

[Indi]

My lingering question: Did Ichabod and Katrina ever do it last season? i.e., have marital relations?

 

I'm convinced they only ever had [sloppy] sex once in their married life. The result was Henry.

 

I took the lack of anything remotely affectionate or lusty between Katrina and Ich to reflect TM's civil disobedience to TPTB.

 

I don't believe this, because Mison has failed with every single romantic interest, not only Katia. A civil disobedience on his part doesn't make sense to me, because it's more self-sabotage than anything. It reflects poorly on his abilities as an actor and it doesn't do his character and his storyline any good.

 

[Enero]

I don't believe this, because Mison has failed with every single romantic interest, not only Katia. A civil disobedience on his part doesn't make sense to me, because it's more self-sabotage than anything. It reflects poorly on his abilities as an actor and it doesn't do his character and his storyline any good.

I have to agree. This is the only thing that makes me nervous about romantically pairing up Abbie and Crane. TM just doesn't do romance well i.e. kissing etc. He and NB have mad chemistry but if their characters do get together and the kissing is jacked up the sizzle between them will almost certainly become a dud.

[Miss Dee]

*crickets*

Good Lord, we're all so depressed that Tom Mison can't fake it for the camera that we're all sitting here in silent misery. :)

I agree his scenes with Katrina and Zoe were not hot, but I have to be honest: I didn't think they were supposed to be!

Edited March 8, 2016 by Miss Dee

[Julia]

I have to agree. This is the only thing that makes me nervous about romantically pairing up Abbie and Crane. TM just doesn't do romance well i.e. kissing etc. He and NB have mad chemistry but if their characters do get together and the kissing is jacked up the sizzle between them will almost certainly become a dud.

 

This is a big worry for me any time there's a couple I ship. I genuinely feel uncomfortable about the thought of them becoming canon, because my (bitter) experience is that there are spelling-challenged teenagers out there writing fan fiction whose views of adult human relationships are more nuanced and mature than the upper-middle-class white guys who generally write television.

Edited March 8, 2016 by Julia

[Indi]

This is a big worry for me any time there's a couple I ship. I genuinely feel uncomfortable about the thought of them becoming canon, because my (bitter) experience is that there are spelling-challenged teenagers out there writing fan fiction whose views of adult human relationships are more nuanced and mature than the upper-middle-class white guys who generally write television.

 

That's another problem for me as well. Leaving aside the fact that I find Ichabod unlikable and not really attractive, both the acting (on Mison's side) and the writing, when it comes to romance, leave a lot to be desired. See how they've treated the leads living together: zero sexual tension, and I'm also counting the scene with Ichy handling Abbie's camisole. An opportunity only the worst showrunners/writers would miss.

 

If those chess scenes are their way to writing romantic subtext, I'm already bored, because they behave like geriatric best friends than two young people sexually attracted to each other. Granted, Ichy has always been like that, more talk than show. More comfortable talking about love from a safe distance than within arms reach. Unfortunately, the only evidence about Abbie's sexual passion comes from hearsay, not from on screen evidence, so no matter how heated Danny's words were, perhaps she's just as flat as Ichy, which makes for very boring television.

[Helena Dax]

I don't know, their hugs are pretty epic and the hand porn was legendary. A kiss could kill us all.

[Miss Dee]

Yeah, I gotta say, I am not sitting here frustrated because they're not visibly panting for each other. To start with these two shouldn't be that way; right now they define their closeness as part of their friendship and the Witness Bond. Thinking about each other in a sexual way just hasn't happened yet, *and that's okay*.

And while I understand that (especially on television) there are couples who seem to get sexually aroused if they so much as pick their teeth in the same room, I have to be honest: it's not really my favourite kind of interaction. Yeah, it can be kind of fun to watch in the beginning, but it gets old and often frustrating real fast. The couples I've shipped have always been low-heat. So I don't immediately fan myself the minute they lay eyes on each other; so fucking what?

Look, the reason anybody ships anyone on a television show is because the idea of watching that storyline provides some sort of fulfillment for the viewer. A pairing whose top point in their favourite is their sexual heat usually strikes me as unrealistic and characterized by poor writing. Couples whose connection is built on friendship, emotional intimacy and honesty always seem to me more mature, more realistic, and ultimately better written.

But maybe it all has to do with what one brings to the shows one watches. Any relationship I've ever had where sexual heat was the top thing going for us might have been fun for a short time at the beginning, but it usually flamed out pretty fast. On the other hand, my current marriage is one that started out as a friendship first where I got that he was attractive but "just didn't see him like that." I doubt anyone is feeling the temperature rise when we walk into a room, but I don't give a shit; I'm happy and fulfilled.

To make a long story short, it doesn't bother me one bit that Ichabod and Abbie don't look like they want to jump each other's bones every minute. That's not where they are. HelenaDax above is right; lots of us get excited when they're emotionally open with one another even if it's so much as holding hands. Let's have a bit of trust in the actors and assume they'll be able to bring it when the time comes.

Edited March 9, 2016 by Miss Dee

[MissAlmond]

^^^THREE CHEERS MISS DEE!!!!^^^  I'm right there with you!

[FierceAfroChick]

This is a big worry for me any time there's a couple I ship. I genuinely feel uncomfortable about the thought of them becoming canon, because my (bitter) experience is that there are spelling-challenged teenagers out there writing fan fiction whose views of adult human relationships are more nuanced and mature than the upper-middle-class white guys who generally write television.

 

This is my worry too.  And I've watched CC's "The Glades" (couldn't get through the first season, HATED the male lead) and the romance between the two protagonists was...eh.  I fear they may not be able to do an Abbie and Crane romance justice. 

 

I was always on the fence about a romance anyway because I feared their chemistry might not translate into romantic chemistry. 

And after seeing Michonne and Rick on WD, my fears have escalated.  Their love scene was so awkward and the subsequent scenes haven't been much better. What is everyone else seeing that I don't?

 

Honestly?  I wasn't even moved by the head kiss.  There was nothing squee-worthy about it to me, I squeed harder when Crane was showing off his new driving skills.  You'd think if they both are harboring some secret love for each other, you'd be able to see it here and there, but...nothing.  I also have doubts about TM's ability to bring the romance, but we shall see.  So far, I'm underwhelmed by Ichabbie, so writing in some obvious sexual tension might be a good idea.

 

And speaking of bad romances...Joe and Jenny remind me of those relationships you see on CW shows.  All meaningless angst and ridiculous misunderstandings.  When she was trying to entice him into her trailer for sexy times, not once did I think, "ooh they're so hot" or "aww, they're so in love".  Their initial chemistry definitely did not transition well into romance.

Edited March 9, 2016 by FierceAfroChick

[Enero]

I was always on the fence about a romance anyway because I feared their chemistry might not translate into romantic chemistry. 

And after seeing Michonne and Rick on WD, my fears have escalated.  Their love scene was so awkward and the subsequent scenes haven't been much better. What is everyone else seeing that I don't?

 

What?! Lol. I thought their scene was perfect. The kisses were

hot, but then there was also tentativeness, awkwardness and intimacy that rang true for a couple who just realized what they feel for each other, decided to act on it and also haven't had sex in a long time. :) Regarding their subsequent scenes, Michonne and Rick will never be lovey dovey. We'll continue to see touches and looks but nothing too overt. That's just the way they roll.

But hey to each it's own.

I completely understand your concerns.

Honestly?  I wasn't even moved by the head kiss.  There was nothing squee-worthy about it to me, I squeed harder when Crane was showing off his new driving skills.  You'd think if they both are harboring some secret love for each other, you'd be able to see it here and there, but...nothing.  I also have doubts about TM's ability to bring the romance, but we shall see.  So far, I'm underwhelmed by Ichabbie, so writing in some obvious sexual tension might be a good idea.

I agree. I'm still going back and forth as to whether that was a head kiss or just NB's face kind of landing in TM's hair. That said, I do think TM does a great job at conveying that Crane feels more than friendship with the way he sometimes looks at Abbie and with the things he says. I just don't know if that'll translate well if/when things turn physical between he and Abbie.

 

[topanga]

I agree. I'm still going back and forth as to whether that was a head kiss or just NB's face kind of landing in TM's hair. That said, I do think TM does a great job at conveying that Crane feels more than friendship with the way he sometimes looks at Abbie and with the things he says. I just don't know if that'll translate well if/when things turn physical between he and Abbie.

No, I don't think Abbie was making out with Ichabod's greasy hair. But she did envelop his body in an embrace of comfort and concern, and resting her face on his head was a natural progression of that care and concern. But Abbie did deliberately kiss the top of Crane's head.

 

Crane and Abbie are different with each other than they are with anyone else on the show. They communicate with other using shorthand, sometimes only with their eyes. Crane knows how Abbie will react if he questions her a certain way, and Abbie knows how Crane will respond to historical inaccuracies or challenges his patriotism. And as guarded as Abbie is, she opens up to Crane more than she does with anyone else, even Jenny. 

 

So I don't know if the writers would f*-up a relationship between the two of them. But as I've seen for three seasons, TM and NB are capable of elevating any material if it involves the two of them interacting in a scene. I will admit that this wasn't as pronounced in Season 2. But how often were the two of them actually working together, rather than being forced into a three-way with TCO (The Corseted One), who was constantly spouting her own (invariably wrong) ideas about the supernatural?  And yes, Crane often took her side against Abbie, but that wasn't TM's fault. 

 

And the pessimistic side of me doubts there will be another season to continue the slow simmer between the two of them. Just kiss already. If the hand porn, eye porn, and long hugs are any indication, I think anything physical between Crane and Abbie will translate well. More than well. 

[LeeLeePanda]

You've hit upon one of my many HATE! moments of season 2. Did I want evidence that Crane and The Wigstand Did Sex? No. No, I did not. However, why in all that's holy did the two of them have to be lying on the bed, fully clothed, ramrod-stiff (and not in a good way) watching The Bachelor, or whatever the hell? It was soo awkward and just not what anyone--from their their time period or ours--would do. It rates up there with those scenes on Sex in the City where Carrie would be in bed with a dude, post-coitus, and wearing her bra. I realize SJP wasn't doing topless, but just no. Not natural. Not genuine. Just awkward and lame. As much as I couldn't bear The Wigstand and the CFD that came with her, I would certainly have understood (hated, but understood) Crane wanting to have sex with his wife. I'd rather have had it alluded to (not shown, heaven forfend!) than to have seen them lying stupidly on the bed like that. Although I do choose to fanwank Katrina's fascination with garbage t.v. as indicative of her vapidity and latent evil. Oh, and one other gripe: No human woman--especially not the supposedly proto-feminist type the writers wanted us to believe The Wigstand was-- would choose a corset as everyday wear an age when she didn't have to.

Slightly off topic, but Katrina wearing a corset everyday was literally the only realistic thing about the character, imo. I used to wear steel boned corsets all them time (worked at a Renaissance Faire for 8 years), and I actually own at least 3.

While they're not most comfortable things, they aren't as bad as they look, especially if you're used to them. I can totally buy that Katrina would prefer the feeling of being tied into a corset. Then again, I'm pretty sure TPTB probably just had KW in corsets all the time because BOOBS.

[HalcyonDays]

If the hand porn, eye porn, and long hugs are any indication, I think anything physical between Crane and Abbie will translate well. More than well.

 

Personally, I would be more concerned about Abbie/NB being able to convey the sexual/romantic interest, than Crane/TM. You just mentioned exactly why. The hand porn, the intense hugs, the smoldering looks (even back in early season 1), the current wineing and dining - it all originates from Crane/TM. 

 

It's up to NB to step up to the plate and reciprocate when Abbie's walls finally fall, and she realizes Crane is her soulmate/lifemate/perfect romantic match.

 

But I'm not worried. Because once they pull the Ichabbie trigger, it will be perfectly fine.

[Miss Dee]

I'm not worried about NB. The huge vulnerability and ache in her eyes and face after Ichabod described his spirit coming home to her voice brought home to me that once Abbie begins to see Ichabod in *that* way, she's going to deliver big-time.

Moreover - and I say this as someone who finds Zach Appleman LOADS sexier than Tom Mison (don't shoot me) - Mison has more than proved that each expression and movement of his body in regards to Ichabod is quite carefully and deliberately chosen. If he wants to portray on screen that Ichabod is on the verge of devouring the one before him in hot passionate sex, he'll figure out to convey that to the audience.

But honestly, I just don't see Ichabod strutting around any of Sleepy Hollow's women like he thinks he's sex on a stick. That is not, to my mind, characteristic of a bookworm (even a rebellious one).

[topanga]

I'm not worried about NB. The huge vulnerability and ache in her eyes and face after Ichabod described his spirit coming home to her voice brought home to me that once Abbie begins to see Ichabod in *that* way, she's going to deliver big-time.

Moreover - and I say this as someone who finds Zach Appleman LOADS sexier than Tom Mison (don't shoot me) - Mison has more than proved that each expression and movement of his body in regards to Ichabod is quite carefully and deliberately chosen. If he wants to portray on screen that Ichabod is on the verge of devouring the one before him in hot passionate sex, he'll figure out to convey that to the audience.

But honestly, I just don't see Ichabod strutting around any of Sleepy Hollow's women like he thinks he's sex on a stick. That is not, to my mind, characteristic of a bookworm (even a rebellious one).

NB has shown me with her hugs, her meaningful stares, and her cradling of Ichabod's head that she is capable of showing great emotion with Tom Mison. 

 

And I do think Zach Appelman is super cute, but Tom Mison is a sexy, grown-ass man--when he has facial hair, that is.

 

The visual image of Ichabod strutting around Sleepy Hollow like George Jefferson made me laugh out loud. I'm sure there were promiscuous men in the 18th century who acted like they were sex on a stick, but you're right that it wouldn't jive with Ichabod's personality.

 

And you're right that TM's acting choices are deliberate. Maybe that's why I'm so convinced that his feelings for Abbie are strong. When it comes to other women like the reenactor who met her sad demise, Zoe, and even Katrina, Ichabod often had a bewildered and clueless look on his face when talking to them or listening to other people talk about them. But when Crane looks at Abbie, he doesn't look confused at all. Even during these post-catacombs episodes, when he can't quite figure out what's going on with her, Crane stares at Abbie as if he's trying his damndest to see inside her soul. 

Edited March 9, 2016 by topanga

[jhlipton]

It rates up there with those scenes on Sex in the City where Carrie would be in bed with a dude, post-coitus, and wearing her bra. I realize SJP wasn't doing topless, but just no. Not natural. Not genuine. Just awkward and lame. 

 

That's the new TV.  The bra (usually black so as to downplay the curves) stays on like it's glued on.

 

I'm amazed how many TV women go to bed fully dressed...

 

I find Ichabod unlikable and not really attractive

 

No, really???  And here I thought you were his biggest fan!

I kid, I kid...

 

 

It's up to NB to step up to the plate and reciprocate when Abbie's walls finally fall, and she realizes Crane is her soulmate/lifemate/perfect romantic match.

 

 

I've seen NB in a number of movies where she has to bring the heat and all I can say is Ichabod better be wearing asbestos underwear!

 

 I'm sure there were promiscuous men in the 18th century who acted like they were sex on a stick

 

Both Ben Franklin and the Jersey Devil, just to name two.

[spaceghostess]

Slightly off topic, but Katrina wearing a corset everyday was literally the only realistic thing about the character, imo. I used to wear steel boned corsets all them time (worked at a Renaissance Faire for 8 years), and I actually own at least 3.

While they're not most comfortable things, they aren't as bad as they look, especially if you're used to them. I can totally buy that Katrina would prefer the feeling of being tied into a corset. Then again, I'm pretty sure TPTB probably just had KW in corsets all the time because BOOBS.

Point taken re: corsets. I was imagining the whalebone stays that women would, in the name of fashion, over-tighten to the point of deformation (people's livers were displaced!) and breathing issues. But maybe that abuse of corset-age was only an issue during the Victorian era, and wasn't a thing in earlier times? I've never worn anything remotely corset-like for more than a few hours, so I bow to your experience in that regard. Also, it's very possible that K. would hang on to that as something familiar when so many other things were alien. But then if that were the case, why the skinny jeans? Meh; I'm probably reading too much into it. Based on the woeful lack of "character" in that character, I'm with you in chalking the wardrobe choices up to BOOBS.

 

So I don't know if the writers would f*-up a relationship between the two of them. But as I've seen for three seasons, TM and NB are capable of elevating any material if it involves the two of them interacting in a scene. I will admit that this wasn't as pronounced in Season 2. But how often were the two of them actually working together, rather than being forced into a three-way with TCO (The Corseted One), who was constantly spouting her own (invariably wrong) ideas about the supernatural?  And yes, Crane often took her side against Abbie, but that wasn't TM's fault. 

 

And the pessimistic side of me doubts there will be another season to continue the slow simmer between the two of them. Just kiss already. If the hand porn, eye porn, and long hugs are any indication, I think anything physical between Crane and Abbie will translate well. More than well. 

 

THIS. Admittedly, I haven't seen enough of his other work to make a reasonable judgment re: TM's abilities to bring the sexy times convincingly. The only other show I've watched him in is Lost in Austen, and there, he played Bingley (come on)! Nonetheless, I'm not worried because of exactly the points you so eloquently made. IMHO, he's really delivered in any emotional scene they've had together, and I believe that the laser focus NB and TM train on each other in all of their scenes will carry over if/when those situations become more intimate. The quality of their platonic scenes has me halfway there already, so I'm already a pretty easy mark for Ichabbie.

[jhlipton]

Then again, I'm pretty sure TPTB probably just had KW in corsets all the time because BOOBS.

 

Being a connoisseur of all things BOOBS and the "packaging" thereof, there are much better ways to display these fine portions of the female anatomy.  Does the term "tube top" mean anything to you?  I thought it might!

[Julia]

Being a connoisseur of all things BOOBS and the "packaging" thereof, there are much better ways to display these fine portions of the female anatomy.  Does the term "tube top" mean anything to you?  I thought it might!

 

Yeah, but tube tops make it clear exactly how much boobage are within them. The things they put Katrina and Betsy Ross in pushed their boobs up to the point where they practically needed a brazilian wax for their cleavage.

[topanga]

Yeah, but tube tops make it clear exactly how much boobage are within them. The things they put Katrina and Betsy Ross in pushed their boobs up to the point where they practically needed a brazilian wax for their cleavage.

I wonder who the costume people are. Because I also think Abbie's clothes are too casual and too fitting for an active FBI agent. Sophie doesn't dress like Abbie, for example. Granted, NB has a nice body, and she wears those clothes, but she's outfitted like a male's fantasy of how a sexy FBI agent would dress.

[DeLurker]

I agree Abbie's clothes are too casual for work, but I don't think they are overly tight.  Fitted - yes.  And I don't see this as pandering to the male fantasy, especially when we've been served up Katrina and Sexy Betsy.

 

NB does have a great figure, but she's also petite.  I would think that it would be easy to overwhelm her in more standard issue business attire.

 

I'll just go with she's given more latitude as a Feeb since she's in the field most of the time.

[jhlipton]

he's outfitted like a male's fantasy of how a sexy FBI agent would dress.

 

Don't I wish! 

 

I've never cared for corsets mysel, but then I think that most Victoria Secret bras are the least sexy thing I've seen.  So probably not the target audience

[NuncaNunca]

So, who's excited about Dichabod (the portmanteau for Crane and Diana) in Season 4?

We got a preview of the two at Dragon Con!

[topanga]

4 minutes ago, Tehateki said:

So, who's excited about Dichabod (the portmanteau for Crane and Diana) in Season 4?

We got a preview of the two at Dragon Con!

Sadly, I'm not. I'll get my Sleepy Hollow updates from anyone on this show forum, but I can't bring myself to watch or support the show anymore. 

Edited September 8, 2016 by topanga

[LeeLeePanda]

On September 7, 2016 at 9:38 PM, topanga said:

Sadly, I'm not. I'll get my Sleepy Hollow updates from anyone on this show forum, but I can't bring myself to watch or support the show anymore. 

I have to agree. Nothing against those who are excited about season 4, but the new portmanteau made me roll my eyes. Then again, I don't plan on watching this season, so I guess it's time to start weaning myself off this forum. 

[catrox14]

Dichabod? Really.  So stupid.  Gah. I just get irked all over again at this turn of events.