Sansa Stark: A Direwolf In Sheep's Clothing?

[Colorful Mess]

Either Sansa is an evil mastermind who wants to betray her family or a gullible dummy who never learns when she's being played and couldn't possibly be manipulating her teacher. Or sometimes she's both of these at once! My head is spinning from the contradictions.

Sansa's flaw is something she says out loud. She's a slow learner. It took her a long time to realize LF plays with people just like Ramsay. That's not to say that she completely trusted him all along the way, but he was also manipulating her for years into thinking he was the only one she could trust. It's a common dynamic in abuser/victim relationships so I empathize. Its a very human flaw.

In S7 she implies that she thinks he just wants her sexually. But as soon as he started trying to pit the sisters against each other Sansa knew it was more than that. He doesn't really care for her, he's using her as a pawn to launch a coup and sow discord. Is Sansa really going to betray her family? No. Plotting to usurp Jon is a misdirect just like plotting to execute Arya was.

Overall its about her realizing he just wants her for political power and how dangerous he really is: he brought down her family and started the war. The other stuff about actually wanting to betray Jon doesnt hold up to much scrutiny when her main arc in s7 is about realizing he's more dangerous than she anticipated. Slow. learner.  At the same time, she learned valuable lessons about the game from him. It's tragic that the price was very steep.

I love how GRRM writes these complexities for her and I wish more people could appreciate these nuances.

Edited December 8, 2018 by Colorful Mess

[GrailKing]

5 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

Either Sansa is an evil mastermind who wants to betray her family or a gullible dummy who never learns when she's being played and couldn't possibly be manipulating her teacher. Or sometimes she's both of these at once! My head is spinning from the contradictions.

Sansa's flaw is something she says out loud. She's a slow learner. It took her a long time to realize LF plays with people just like Ramsay. That's not to say that she completely trusted him all along the way, but he was also manipulating her for years into thinking he was the only one she could trust. It's a common dynamic in abuser/victim relationships so I empathize. Its a very human flaw.

In S7 she implies that she thinks he just wants her sexually. But as soon as he started trying to pit the sisters against each other Sansa knew it was more than that. He doesn't really care for her, he's using her as a pawn to launch a coup and sow discord. Is Sansa really going to betray her family? No. Plotting to usurp Jon is a misdirect just like plotting to execute Arya was.

Overall its about her realizing he just wants her for political power and how dangerous he really is: he brought down her family and started the war. The other stuff about actually wanting to betray Jon doesnt hold up to much scrutiny when her main arc in s7 is about realizing he's more dangerous than she anticipated. Slow. learner.  At the same time, she learned valuable lessons about the game from him. It's tragic that the price was very steep.

I love how GRRM writes these complexities for her and I wish more people could appreciate these nuances.

In book she knows he wants her for WF as everyone else, No one will marry me for love, but for my claim.

A 13 yo going up against a mid 30 or 40ish person has an uphill battle, especially considering how many older people he manipulated.

[anamika]

11 hours ago, merrick715 said:

She already had Petyr killed. She offered up her title as Lord/Lady of Winterfell to Bran, who came before her in succession, but he refused to claim them.  What else is she supposed to do to prove her loyalty to her family and affirm her Starkness in season eight?

Support her brother and her family next season.

11 hours ago, merrick715 said:

This brings me to something that has always annoyed me with book Ned. There is all this talk of book Sansa betraying Ned, but no one mentions his parental missteps,  Do you think Ned would have broken the betrothal if the only thing that changed about Joffrey was that he had black hair and blue eye like a true Baratheon? I know the show changed things about the Tourny celebrating the Hand, but book Ned seriously screwed up. In the book, Ned allows Sansa to attend the feast with Septa Mordane. He doesn't order one or two of his household guards to escort his eleven-year-old daughter back to the Red Keep.  No, he intrusts the physical safety of his highborn daughter to an old lady, who ends up passed out drunk.

Typical, let's blame Ned for Sansa being a fool who runs to Cersei and tattles all Ned's plans despite Sansa seeing what both Cersei and Joffrey were capable of. Do you think Ned would have allowed Sansa to get married to Joffrey after the trident incident? After Joffrey tried to kill Arya? It's clear that for Ned the betrothal is over then and he was just waiting for a time to break it off, send the girls home and let Robert know the deal. And Ned not having Sansa escorted back to the Red keep makes him a shitty dad and justifies Sansa's betrayal?  Ned was overwhelmed in KL and kept pleading with his daughters to co-operate with him and not fight. And he did his best to explain the situation to Sansa. Westeros is a place where 10 year olds become lord commanders. I would say that Ned and Cat were the best parents in the series.

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These two statements are incompatible. You are saying that Arya frightened Sansa out of executing a coup on Jon, the coup you earlier said that you did not believe Sansa was planning. Pick one or the other. You can't have it both ways.

Yes, Sansa was not actively, planning a coup. SANSA WAS NOT PLANNING A COUP. But every time, LF pushes her for the position of queen, she actively considers it and these feelings make her do things that undermine Jon's position.

For example:

The script makes it clear that the lords are being disloyal to Jon and Arya is waiting for Sansa to act on this - SANSA DOES NO SUCH THING. The script here is not talking about Sansa masterfully bringing the lords to support Jon or house Stark in case Jon does not come back - none of that. It's about the Lords being DISLOYAL and Sansa not putting a stop to this - and later we get the Sansa/Arya confrontation on this with the script saying that Arya is right. Sansa does not step in there because she wants to be queen.

So Sansa is not actively going after the lords here - LF is doing that for her behind the scenes. She is not going after Glover or Lyanna and convincing them she should be queen. She is just sitting there letting their resentment over Jon increase and allows them to trash talk Jon without doing anything about it because she wants to be queen and is making sure she has their support in case the opportunity arose . That's all fine and good, if Jon was already dead and gone. But he is not, he is still King and she should have been shoring up support for him instead of for herself!

11 hours ago, screamin said:

She's telling LF, who (unlike Arya) she can tell her basest desires openly, that she does not want to overthrow Jon.

No, she's telling LF that even if she wanted to depose Jon, Arya would not go along with it. That even if Sansa considered kicking Jon out, Arya would be an obstacle. This is basic english. A person says - even if I want to do this, this part will be hard - means a person is considering how they would this if they wanted to.  If Sansa was not at all considering the option, she would have just totally shut down LF there and not think about what Arya would do in that scenario.

The script and the show were very clear that Sansa actually entertained the notion of overthrowing Jon here at LF's suggestion - she tells LF that even if she wanted to do what LF suggests (And since I have to spell it out - Notice how I did not say that she planned and carried out a coup! She only thinks that yes, maybe she should do what LF says and mount one) , Arya would not allow it. And that's why LF talks about having Arya executed.

Sansa entertained the notion of carrying out a coup, hesitating because Arya would kill her for it and then quickly came to her senses about LF.

11 hours ago, screamin said:

Do you really think Jon would be glad to know that Arya waved a knife before their sister's eyes and threatened to cut off her face and wear it?

He will not be pleased that his sisters were threatening each other while he was gone, yes. There's noh time for that. But after two seasons of Sansa being shady,  I think that Jon will be happy that he has a sibling that is looking out for him and his interests. And at the end of the day, this is Arya. Jon and Sansa were never really close and they bonded under circumstances where they thought everyone else in their family was dead. Now his most favorite person ever is back and that will change the dynamics even more.

11 hours ago, screamin said:

The sister he trusted enough to give the kingdom over to her keeping? And that she did this because Sansa was just a little too nice to the lords who doubted him?

Because there was no one else he could trust it to. He  had to give it to the Stark sibling who has lied to him, undermined him and kept important information from him and hope it goes well. And I like how you try to make out Sansa's actions as just being too nice, lol. I wish she could be similarly nice to her brother in front of the lords or to Brienne. But no - her niceness is only meant for the treasonous Lords so that they would like her more than Jon.

11 hours ago, screamin said:

The king can give over temporary rule to his Hand. King Bob did it with Ned. There is no rule that the king MUST give the rule to his relative - much less his heir - if he chooses to leave on a temporary errand. Davos was an obvious candidate for Jon to choose - he even has prior experience as a Hand.

Maybe because Jon was going on an important mission to meet a new queen and get much needed allies and weapons and hence needs his trusty adviser and hype man by his side? As we saw in season 6, it was Davos who charmed Lyanna into supporting them and Davos who went around with Stannis and got him the support of the Iron Bank. How would the King go alone with just soldiers on this important mission? And as we saw Davos did a wonderful job, supporting Jon. Look at the difference between  Davos supporting Jon and his mission

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You were the first to bring Dothraki to Westeros? He is the first to make allies of wildlings and Northmen. He was named Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. He was named King in the North. Not because of his birthright. He has no birthright. He's a damn bastard. All those hard sons of bitches chose him as their leader because they believe in him. All those things you don't believe in, he faced those things. He fought those things for the good of his people. He risked his life for his people. He took a knife in the heart for his people. He gave his own-- If we don't put aside our enmities and band together, we will die. And then it doesn't matter whose skeleton sits on the Iron Throne.

and Sansa:

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Jon is our King. He is doing what he thinks is best.

lol.  Either Sansa is a worthless, terrible diplomat. Or that was deliberate. Sorry, but even Gendry was more loyal to Jon than Sansa was and he only just met the guy.

Sansa was a Stark and the Lady of WF. By tradition and culture, she should have been Queen in the North. And she got them the victory with her army. Both Jon and Sansa recognize this, hence the tension and anger between them - how could Jon put anyone else in charge of the North while Sansa was there? That would be like putting salt on her wounds. And she would have actively planned a coup in that case.  As per Jon, he and Sansa were the only two Starks who were alive and if he was gone, then the North can only go to Sansa. Like, I said, it's not like he had many choices available.

And for all the comments about Sansa joyfully wanting to make Bran Lord of WF:

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Bran: I can never be Lord of WF. I can never be lord of anything. I am the 3ER

Her (Sansa) relief at his lack of worldly ambitions is overshadowed by her rising discomfort with his strangeness.

I can't blame the girl for wanting to be in power and rule instead of Jon and Bran. But let's not pretend that she's some selfless, mother Teresa who supports Jon wholeheartedly. Sansa was in a power struggle with Jon and Arya for two seasons. We shall see what next season brings for her.

Edit: As per the scripts coming out, it looks like Arya was indeed playing the game of faces with Sansa to figure out her true intentions with regards to Jon. Sansa just refused to play.

Edited December 9, 2018 by anamika

[Smad]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

Support her brother and her family next season.

She was the only one doing that in S7. How about the others pitch in instead? Bran does absolutely nothing except creep his family out. Arya does nothing but threaten her own family while she doesn't do squat to help around Winterfell. And Jon flitted off first chance he got leaving behind an unstable situation without even telling her she would have to deal with it beforehand.

Sansa reached out to Jon telling him to be smarter, he told her to get lost. She reached out to Bran who slapped her with rape PTSD. She reached out to Arya and got nothing but hostility. I'm getting tired of her being the only one in that family to pull her weight.

1 hour ago, anamika said:

Typical, let's blame Ned for Sansa being a fool who runs to Cersei and tattles all Ned's plans despite Sansa seeing what both Cersei and Joffrey were capable of.

When did that happen in the show? Seriously stop bringing book!Sansa into this just for the sake of hating. The two characters are different. You are talking about show!Sansa in your post, don't invent reasons that never happened in show canon to support your point.

1 hour ago, anamika said:

Do you think Ned would have allowed Sansa to get married to Joffrey after the trident incident? After Joffrey tried to kill Arya? It's clear that for Ned the betrothal is over then and he was just waiting for a time to break it off, send the girls home and let Robert know the deal. And Ned not having Sansa escorted back to the Red keep makes him a shitty dad and justifies Sansa's betrayal?  Ned was overwhelmed in KL and kept pleading with his daughters to co-operate with him and not fight. And he did his best to explain the situation to Sansa. Westeros is a place where 10 year olds become lord commanders. I would say that Ned and Cat were the best parents in the series.

He clearly did still intend for them to get married. He should have send the girls home right then and there. As soon as it became clear the Lannisters are monsters, any caring parent would have broken off the betrothal and send his children home. Robert would have gotten over it so no danger there, he cares more for Ned than his own wife and son. And Ned apparently only cares about Arya, never has a convo with Sansa about anything to explain what is going on, like any decent parent would do. Sorry but he explains nothing at all to Sansa. He gives her a doll, not even knowing his daughter hasn't played with them for 5 freaking years. Wow Ned, how out of touch are you? And again....WHAT BETRAYAL???

1 hour ago, anamika said:

Because there was no one else he could trust it to. He  had to give it to the Stark sibling who has lied to him, undermined him and kept important information from him and hope it goes well. And I like how you try to make out Sansa's actions as just being too nice, lol. I wish she could be similarly nice to her brother in front of the lords or to Brienne. But no - her niceness is only meant for the treasonous Lords so that they would like her more than Jon

Don't act like there weren't alternatives. Why not Lyanna Mormont? Clearly the girl is his champion. He could entrust it to her. Or Davos, and no, the excuses listed as to why Davos had to go with him are rubbish. Can Jon do nothing on his own or achieve himself except swing a freaking sword? How pathetic is this guy? And what else is Sansa supposed to do other than placate the Lords? Take Arya's suggestion and start cutting off heads? That worked out so damn well for Robb, didn't it Arya? I'm sure that will keep the North together. And seriously, nicer to Jon? Does the guy have to be treated with kid's gloves? Sansa engaging Jon in front of the Lords actually forced Jon to communicate for once. This guy sucks at communication. Remember that time when he sucked at it so much he got himself freaking killed? And again, Sansa is another Lord/Lady of the North, just because her and Jon are related doesn't mean she has to sit in the corner and keep her mouth shut.

1 hour ago, anamika said:

Yes, Sansa was not actively, planning a coup. SANSA WAS NOT PLANNING A COUP. But every time, LF pushes her for the position of queen, she actively considers it and these feelings make her do things that undermine Jon's position.

Where is that on the show? When was she shown actively considering it all the time? In the scripts? Those again don't count. The one time she mentions to something vague to LF while we have no idea what game is being played thanks the deceiving writers? And when in the seven hells did she do things that undermined Jon? And don't say when she talked back to him while all the Lords were present, it's her damn right as LoW to voice her opinion.

1 hour ago, anamika said:

The script makes it clear that the lords are being disloyal to Jon and Arya is waiting for Sansa to act on this - SANSA DOES NO SUCH THING. The script here is not talking about Sansa masterfully bringing the lords to support Jon or house Stark in case Jon does not come back - none of that. It's about the Lords being DISLOYAL and Sansa not putting a stop to this - and later we get the Sansa/Arya confrontation on this with the script saying that Arya is right. Sansa does not step in there because she wants to be queen

Who the hell cares what Arya wants Sansa to do? Arya is NO ONE. She isn't a Lady of a Northern House nor is she Queen/Regent/Warden of the North. Politically Arya has no say in anything. That she feels the need to butt in where she doesn't belong and act like she knows everything just shows how she has learned nothing in 7 Seasons. Still the same girl from 1 who thinks she is the shit and better than anyone else. All that was left for her to do was violently attacking her sister like she did at the Trident. But I guess she left it at a murder and skinning threat this time (her and Ramsey, two peas in a pod). Anyone who supports Arya's way of thinking should seriously (the literal cutting off of heads) think of the bigger picture. Cutting off Royce's head would start a freaking war between the Vale and the North. The Vale, aka currently the biggest military force in the North. Cutting off Glovers and other northern Lords heads would lead to complete and utter chaos and war on the freaking Starks. How stupid does one have to be to suggest or support such a 'strategy'? Jon would come back to an utterly devastated North that is completely in ruins and Winterfell probably occupied, the 3 Stark siblings dead.

Placating the Lords and reiterating that Jon is their King was the only thing she could do. Sansa is trying to keep everyone united while Arya is trying to send the North into utter chaos. I know which one I prefer.

1 hour ago, anamika said:

I can't blame the girl for wanting to be in power and rule instead of Jon and Bran. But let's not pretend that she's some selfless, mother Teresa who supports Jon wholeheartedly.

Then stop pretending that the sun shines out of Arya's, Jon's and Dany's asses.

1 hour ago, anamika said:

As per the scripts coming out, it looks like Arya was indeed playing the game of faces with Sansa to figure out her true intentions with regards to Jon. Sansa just refused to play.

Again, who the hell cares. Scripts are not the final product.

[merrick715]

3 hours ago, anamika said:

Typical, let's blame Ned for Sansa being a fool who runs to Cersei and tattles all Ned's plans despite Sansa seeing what both Cersei and Joffrey were capable of. Do you think Ned would have allowed Sansa to get married to Joffrey after the trident incident? After Joffrey tried to kill Arya? It's clear that for Ned the betrothal is over then and he was just waiting for a time to break it off, send the girls home and let Robert know the deal. And Ned not having Sansa escorted back to the Red keep makes him a shitty dad and justifies Sansa's betrayal?  Ned was overwhelmed in KL and kept pleading with his daughters to co-operate with him and not fight. And he did his best to explain the situation to Sansa. Westeros is a place where 10 year olds become lord commanders. I would say that Ned and Cat were the best parents in the series.

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The only reason I brought up book Ned is that you keep bringing up book Sansa.  In the show, neither of this things happened. Even G.R.R Martin was surprised by the blame fans put on Sansa for Ned's death. It is one of the reasons that the whole Sansa going to Cersei doesn't happen in the show, Also, as an aside, I do put the blame on an adult rather than a child, which Sansa was, since she was eleven at the time. 

 

3 hours ago, anamika said:

He will not be pleased that his sisters were threatening each other while he was gone, yes. There's noh time for that. But after two seasons of Sansa being shady,  I think that Jon will be happy that he has a sibling that is looking out for him and his interests. And at the end of the day, this is Arya. Jon and Sansa were never really close and they bonded under circumstances where they thought everyone else in their family was dead. Now his most favorite person ever is back and that will change the dynamics even more.

14 hours ago, screamin said:

So, Jon would be fine with his favorite sibling threatening to kill his least favorite sibling for nothing more than thinking something, and not acting on it?

Edited December 9, 2018 by merrick715

[Colorful Mess]

7 hours ago, GrailKing said:

A 13 yo going up against a mid 30 or 40ish person has an uphill battle, especially considering how many older people he manipulated.

Yeah I agree, it's definitely an uphill battle. 

She knows she's being used for her claim but she doesn't quite know the extent how dangerous LF is. She thinks marriage to Harry is just a way for her to go home.

Since you bring up how no one will marry her for love, something else about the Littlefinger plot stood out to me. Sansa is killing the one person who "in his own way" loved her.  She cried killing him. It's almost like she has no one who will love her even if its her manipulator. It's f'ing sad.

[anamika]

2 hours ago, merrick715 said:

The only reason I brought up book Ned is that you keep bringing up book Sansa. 

 

Where do  I keep bringing up book Sansa? I mentioned Sansa tattling to Cersei in the books as an example of her doing something because she wants something and not because she was actively trying to betray her family.

2 hours ago, merrick715 said:

Even G.R.R Martin was surprised by the blame fans put on Sansa for Ned's death.

Where was it mentioned that GRRM was surprised considering GRRM himself put the partial blame for what happens to Ned on Sansa?

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The way I see it, it is not a case of all or nothing. No single person is to blame for Ned's downfall. Sansa played a role, certainly, but it would be unfair to put all the blame on her. But it would also be unfair to exonerate her. She was not privy to all of Ned's plans regarding Stannis, the gold cloaks, etc... but she knew more than just that her father planned to spirit her and Arya away from King's Landing. She knew when they were to leave, on what ship, how many men would be in their escort, who would have the command, where Arya was that morning, etc... all of which was useful to Cersei in planning and timing her move.

Arya, Jeyne and Sansa herself got stuck in KL because Cersei knew Ned's plans and moved early. Sansa being stuck there led to Ned confessing and Joffrey asking for his head. Arya has more reasons to be genuinely pissed off at Sansa than some stupid letter in the books. And let's not even talk Jeyne Poole.

And yes they whitewashed Sansa (Not as much as Tyrion, but still) on the show and one of the D's has admitted Sansa is his favorite character and he does not like it that she gets 'hate' from the audience.

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The hardest chapters for me to write are the ones about Bran, just because he is the character most involved in magic, the youngest child and he is so seriously crippled--I have to write in that sense of powerlessness and it has always to convince. Sansa was the least sympathetic of the Starks in the first book; she has become more sympathetic, partly because she comes to accept responsibility for her part in her father's death. Jon Snow is the truest character--I like his sense of realism and the way he copes with his bastardy.

More information from the script regarding Sansa and Jon becoming KITN

Edited December 9, 2018 by anamika

[screamin]

15 hours ago, anamika said:

Maybe because Jon was going on an important mission to meet a new queen and get much needed allies and weapons and hence needs his trusty adviser and hype man by his side? As we saw in season 6, it was Davos who charmed Lyanna into supporting them and Davos who went around with Stannis and got him the support of the Iron Bank. How would the King go alone with just soldiers on this important mission? And as we saw Davos did a wonderful job, supporting Jon. Look at the difference between  Davos supporting Jon and his mission

Remind me, what did Davos actually accomplish that no one else Jon  might have brought with him could have done? He said supportive things (and IIRC a little borderline sniggering at the attraction between Jon and Dany). Very sweet, but if kissing and polishing Jon's ass is a critical function that requires no less the diplomatic skills of a King's Hand (thus leaving him unable to leave that Hand in charge at home where kings usually do) then Jon's kind of a crummy king - and I don't think we're supposed to see him that way. I think we're SUPPOSED to see Jon as a competent king who set a competent person to do the most critical job - keeping his kingdom together, its disparate armies with little in common waiting for his command on his return.

If you back the idea that Jon chose to take a competent Hand with him to be a good lickspittle while he put a treacherous woman on the throne who was willing to cause a civil war in service of her ambition - and KNEW it - then you're saying that Jon is an incompetent King. And apparently saying it to justify Arya threatening his chosen regent to cut her face off even though you acknowledge Sansa wasn't planning any treachery against Jon and didn't even WANT to think about it - because poor incompetent Jon should be GLAD that Arya threatened that treacherous woman he stupidly selected to have all the power at WF and kept her from betraying him.

And what is that treachery that Arya was determined to threaten Sansa out of? You quote it yourself.

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We watch Arya as she waits to see whether or not Sansa stamps down this disloyalty toward Jon. We're on her [Arya] for an uncomfortably long time during which Sansa does no such thing.

Sansa (off screen) You are very kind, my lords.

(a pause)

But Jon is our King. He is doing what he thinks best. [My emphasis].

 

IIRC, you said earlier that Sansa could have deflected Arya's rage by simply changing the subject faster than she did and talking up Jon more than she did. But you believe strongly in the script. And the script itself, in which this scene is clearly written solely from Arya's (skewed) point of view, says that Arya would only be content with Sansa "stamping down" this disloyalty.

And who is she expecting Sansa to 'stamp down' for their disloyalty? Lord Royce, a critical ally who owes NO loyalty to Jon? Or Glover, who didn't swear fealty to Jon until after the Battle of the Bastards, so his troops haven't suffered the decimation that the Northern houses did who fought at Jon's side? He also represents a significant proportion of Northern houses who also did not join Jon till after the battle. If Sansa threatens him - who is supposed to carry out such threats? Is she supposed to ask House Mormont and the other houses weakened in the Battle of the Bastards to be ready to engage in a civil war with Glover and his partisans - engage in a civil war with other Northerners for daring to express doubts that other people are undoubtedly feeling? Should she ask Lord Royce? She doesn't know just how much of a creature he is of LF, so doesn't know how likely he is to obey her, and he actually seems to be on Glover's side. And even if he DID obey her, how would it look to the whole North if she used a foreign army to threaten Northern bannermen? Glover is as aware of all this as she is, and empty threats are worse than none. Diplomacy was really her only choice in this situation.

But Arya won't accept any diplomacy - as per the script, she wanted to see "stamping down." When she didn't see it, she decided Sansa was going to be a traitor and threatened her life. You said she did it purely out of love for Jon, but say of those who defend Sansa:

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But let's not pretend that she's some selfless, mother Teresa who supports Jon wholeheartedly. 

Speaking strictly for myself, I've already acknowledged that Sansa is not Mother Teresa, that she has a base, unworthy desire to be queen instead of Jon. She knows it's wrong and doesn't want to think about it, but like any nonsaintly human being she can't prevent base, unworthy, unwanted desires from popping up now and then.

But you aren't acknowledging that ARYA also has some base unworthy desires. You attribute ALL her actions purely to her love of Jon. To me, it seems clear that her gleeful threats to Sansa are also a manifestation of Arya's own unworthy desires - in this case her desire to settle an old grudge with Sansa - and unlike Sansa, she's not putting aside the base, unworthy thought of settling the grudge with blood as something wrong...she's enjoying it WAY too much. 

Edited December 9, 2018 by screamin

[merrick715]

8 hours ago, anamika said:

Arya, Jeyne and Sansa herself got stuck in KL because Cersei knew Ned's plans and moved early. Sansa being stuck there led to Ned confessing and Joffrey asking for his head. Arya has more reasons to be genuinely pissed off at Sansa than some stupid letter in the books. And let's not even talk Jeyne Poole.

 

Doesn't book Ned confronted Cersei about the twincest before Sansa goes to say goodbye to her?  I'm not denying that Sansa's visit made it easier for Cersei to strike, but Ned's own actions also helped Cersei. I'm not even touching the fact that Cersei's plan to kill Robert was already underway. What do you think would have happened to Ned, if Sansa went on the ship and didn't say goodbye to Cersei? Robert was a dead man walking at this point. Cersei doesn't seem like she would have let Ned leave unharmed since his knowledge of the twincest would have put her kids in danger. I must have forgotten the part where Sansa became a pimp and forced Jeyne into sexual slavery, and then sold her to House Bolton. If we're going to blame people for unintended consequences, Arya not killing Tywin when she had the chance made her responsible for Robb and Cat's death. Without Tywin, there is no Red Wedding Poor Jeyne should also loathe, Arya for not killing Tywin and Robb for not keeping his promise to marry a daughter from House Frey.

Edited December 9, 2018 by merrick715

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, merrick715 said:

Doesn't book Ned confronted Cersei about the twincest before Sansa goes to say goodbye to her?  I'm not denying that Sansa's visit made it easier for Cersei to strike, but Ned's own actions also helped Cersei. I'm not even touching the fact that Cersei's plan to kill Robert was already underway. What do you think would have happened to Ned, if Sansa went on the ship and didn't say goodbye to Cersei? Robert was a dead man walking at this point. Cersei doesn't seem like she would have let Ned leave unharmed since his knowledge of the twincest would have put her kids in danger. I must have forgotten the part where Sansa became a pimp and forced Jeyne into sexual slavery, and then sold her to House Bolton. If we're going to blame people for unintended consequences, Arya not killing Tywin when she had the chance made her responsible for Robb and Cat's death. Without Tywin, there is no Red Wedding Poor Jeyne should also loathe, Arya for not killing Tywin and Robb for not keeping his promise to marry a daughter from House Frey.

He went to Cersei, before he even had a ship; in a 4 day span it goes somewhat like this : ( days are for convenience ) Monday: Ned tells the girls he's sending them home, both protest; orders Van Poole to find a ship, sends letter to Cersei to meet in goods wood, confronts her (Cersei's plan for Robert is already in action )tells her what he knows , tells her he will tell Robert when he arrives. Robert is wounded, took 2 days to get him back to KL. Wednsday: Robert's will, Ned refused Renly's plan , makes a pack with LF for the CW, LF and Slynt goes to Cersei.

Thursday at breakfast: Arya ask if she can take a lesson and if Syrio could go with them to WF, Ned says yes, and to be ready to leave at noon. Sansa asked if she could say goodbye to Joffery, Ned said no Sansa doesn't understand why, why can't she say goodbye, Ned trys to tell her for safety, Sansa runs to her room, Septa Mordane volunteered to go with her, Ned still said no. Even when Ned said the betrothal was a mistake Sansa felt it was wrong, she always followed the rules. Ned goes to do his plan, Sansa escapes from the apartment decides to beg to the King, but decides he only send her back to her father, so she runs to Cersei ( she already knows everything but WHEN ), Sansa's arrival gave up when and where, she puts Sansa in a room under the guise of protection and tells her that Joffery's busy in the throne room will see her later; later Jeyne Poole is put in the room too crying screaming they're killing everyone, Sansa doesn't understand why, that night or the next morning the bells ring Robert is dead.

Sansa and Jeyne are in the room 3 days until Cersei calls, Cersei not happy they put Jeyne in with Sansa, gives her to LF, Sansa is told of Ned's treason, doesn't believe it, forced to write 4 letters.

That night Sansa's trying to make sense of what happened realized she forgot to ask about Arya.

[Colorful Mess]

All the characters are going to have a "be careful what you wish for" wake-up moment where their fantasies come crashing down. It's not just Sansa who will go through these trials. Arya wanting to be in the thick of battle and fight - well that desire gave her rampant PTSD and paranoia and a trail of murders. Dany wanting the Iron Throne - same thing (in fact she already did with Rhaego/Drogo but that didnt even change her direction). It's not going to be Arya and Dany are badasses who get their wildest dreams fulfilled without any cost to them or their loved ones, while Sansa is suffering from having similar delusions of grandeur.

[Meredith Quill]

Mod Note:

Please keep responses in here civil. If you cannot disagree without making it personal I suggest you refrain from posting until you learn how to do so.

[screamin]

23 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

All the characters are going to have a "be careful what you wish for" wake-up moment where their fantasies come crashing down. It's not just Sansa who will go through these trials. Arya wanting to be in the thick of battle and fight - well that desire gave her rampant PTSD and paranoia and a trail of murders. Dany wanting the Iron Throne - same thing (in fact she already did with Rhaego/Drogo but that didnt even change her direction). It's not going to be Arya and Dany are badasses who get their wildest dreams fulfilled without any cost to them or their loved ones, while Sansa is suffering from having similar delusions of grandeur.

Sansa has already been punished for her ambitions, disillusioned by them and slapped down repeatedly for them and by them...this happened with more blunt force on the show in the form of Ramsay, but it's also a process happening in the books, where Sansa, after going through Joffrey, Lysa, LF, and adapting to being a bastard and making friends with the servants instead of looking down on them, already thinks she might never want to marry, even with the handsome asshole heir to the Vale in front of her, who would've been the man of her dreams a few years before. She's developed some needed humility, and the talents for scheming she's sharpened were never part of her little girl princess fantasies.

Arya, OTOH, has found her ambitions - to be a mighty warrior making her own rules instead of being smothered by convention - to be her salvation. The killer talents she's carefully fostered and honed have saved her life multiple times, and comforted and upheld her when everything else seemed lost. They gave her the only sense of power she had in a terrifying world. BUT, she never learned the dark side of those ambitions, so she ended up feeling she had no limits, and being easily manipulated by her sense of power into threatening the wrong people. Hopefully now she's learned to check her killer instincts, though it may take Jon to soften her further.

[Smad]

On 10.12.2018 at 9:18 PM, screamin said:

Arya, OTOH, has found her ambitions - to be a mighty warrior making her own rules instead of being smothered by convention - to be her salvation. The killer talents she's carefully fostered and honed have saved her life multiple times, and comforted and upheld her when everything else seemed lost. They gave her the only sense of power she had in a terrifying world. BUT, she never learned the dark side of those ambitions, so she ended up feeling she had no limits, and being easily manipulated by her sense of power into threatening the wrong people. Hopefully now she's learned to check her killer instincts, though it may take Jon to soften her further.

She never had to learn the dark side of her talents because the show runners made her unstoppable. They didn't give her someone who was better than her so she could be humbled. If LF in S7 had been written like S1-4 LF, that would have been the person who could have humbled her in terms of wits. If the show was realistic about abilities and training, Brienne in S7 should have whooped her ass in a duel, showing Arya the limitations of her physical abilities. Instead Arya was allowed to freely enjoy being a psycho. From her killing Frey, to the Frey massacre, all the way up to and including threatening her own sister with death and skinning and killing LF. She did all of that with a smirk on her face because they didn't give her limitations or setbacks or an earnest opponent that could humble her.

And I would really hate it if Jon was the one to soften her. I'm so tired of this show where the women who we are supposed to root for are all dependent on guys. Dany hasn't been doing anything right for years by herself. The best decisions have been made by her MALE advisors. They have been the ones to reign in her madness tendencies. Funnily in S7 nothing seems to be working anymore (the men are just as fail) but it's still Dany's solo decisions (like burning alive unarmed prisoners of war) that draw the most ire. Arya has been carried by several male characters because she couldn't help but be an overzealous stabby little girl incapable of using her head and they had to save her ass. Cersei on the other hand needed none of that, I mean sure, now she has an undead bodyguard. But she owns her psycho status and she listens to no man, never really has, except being forced to do what her father told her but that's lack of agency. So why is it that the 'good girls' can't do it without men to show them the way or save them?

That's why the Sansa/Arya conflict was so dumb in S7. Sure these 2 didn't get along when they were children. S7 was the perfect opportunity to mend bridges. They are 2 different people now, they have gone through terrible things. A mutual healing arc would have been preferable over the 'will they/won't they kill each other' nonsense. The Starks were supposed to come together after all, right? So why not do this instead of robot Bran who loves to give his family PTSD or psycho Arya who loves to threaten her sister with murder and gets off on it. And of course no one communicates with each other for months because that would end the drama before it even begins.

But D&D are utterly incapable of writing female relationships or interactions that aren't catty, sexual, murderous, threatening or gossiping about a boy. So these dumb chicks have to be dealt with by men because these women are that helpless/dumb/psycho.

Edited December 30, 2018 by Smad

[screamin]

11 hours ago, Smad said:

She never had to learn the dark side of her talents because the show runners made her unstoppable. They didn't give her someone who was better than her so she could be humbled. If LF in S7 had been written like S1-4 LF, that would have been the person who could have humbled her in terms of wits. If the show was realistic about abilities and training, Brienne in S7 should have whooped her ass in a duel, showing Arya the limitations of her physical abilities. Instead Arya was allowed to freely enjoy being a psycho. From her killing Frey, to the Frey massacre, all the way up to and including threatening her own sister with death and skinning and killing LF. She did all of that with a smirk on her face because they didn't give her limitations or setbacks or an earnest opponent that could humble her.

Honestly, I don't think that what Arya needed was someone to be physically and martially more capable than her to literally kick her ass and show her she's not physically invincible. I think what she needed (and may still need) is something or someone to deliver a therapeutic mental slap to the face capable of waking her up to the fact that her attitude of constituting herself lone and unappealable Judge, Jury and Executioner to every person she's made up her mind is the Enemy has her dancing dangerously on the edge of becoming the kind of monster she'd crusaded against. LF DID deliver her the humbling insight that the street smarts and psychological insight she'd learned on the road and with the Faceless Men was fallible - despite all the slyness she was so proud of, LF still played her like a violin. 

What IMO is still doubtful is whether that humbling slap was enough to instill in her the necessary emotional horror at the fact that she'd ended up at daggers drawn, threatening death to her own sister (which would have horrified Jon if he'd seen her do it, regardless of the rationalizations she had for it). She needs that as an incentive to work on her empathy and her insight into herself.

To bring this back to topic, Sansa has learned from multiple slaps in the face dealt her by life (to put it mildly) to be more empathetic to people she used to disdain as the child she was - to realize how that kind of disdain can harm others. We still don't know if Arya has learned the necessary doubt required to second-guess her own judgements when using her own considerable murderous powers, or whether she'll blithely admit she made a little mistake with Sansa, but that's of no importance! I know this man/woman deserves death that I should deal, and this judgement is sound and necessary regardless of consequences, and not just a gratification of my festering grudge/momentary rage/unrecognized desire to feel powerful to overcome the feeling of powerlessness I suffered as a child.

Or maybe she HAS learned it.  It remains to be seen.

Quote

And I would really hate it if Jon was the one to soften her. I'm so tired of this show where the women who we are supposed to root for are all dependent on guys. 

I would hate it if Jon 'tamed' Arya with the application of his superior masculine reasoning and/or martial arts. But I would really like it if they had a soft heart-to-heart talk about where Arya had gone wrong and why. In the long run, everyone's dependent on everyone else in their lives for the softer supportive emotions everyone needs.

Edited December 30, 2018 by screamin

[Smad]

9 hours ago, screamin said:

Honestly, I don't think that what Arya needed was someone to be physically and martially more capable than her to literally kick her ass and show her she's not physically invincible. I think what she needed (and may still need) is something or someone to deliver a therapeutic mental slap to the face capable of waking her up to the fact that her attitude of constituting herself lone and unappealable Judge, Jury and Executioner to every person she's made up her mind is the Enemy has her dancing dangerously on the edge of becoming the kind of monster she'd crusaded against. LF DID deliver her the humbling insight that the street smarts and psychological insight she'd learned on the road and with the Faceless Men was fallible - despite all the slyness she was so proud of, LF still played her like a violin.

What IMO is still doubtful is whether that humbling slap was enough to instill in her the necessary emotional horror at the fact that she'd ended up at daggers drawn, threatening death to her own sister (which would have horrified Jon if he'd seen her do it, regardless of the rationalizations she had for it). She needs that as an incentive to work on her empathy and her insight into herself.

The problem is whether that is what we were supposed to see or not and then what that means for what happened. On one hand they were faking the audience into believing these 2 sisters would kill each other but that was all in service of 'psych! gotcha!', they were working together all along. Both are nonsensical storylines but either way, Arya was not challenged by the narrative to change her ways/views. The only one that was challenged and who had to change was Sansa (through the killing of LF which somehow made things ok between her and Arya). Even though Sansa did nothing wrong while Arya was the one accusing her, blaming her, threatening her all while indulging in hypocrisy and selective memory. And for none of it she paid a price. LF might have plaid her like a violin...or he might not. Since we don't have any idea when the sisters started working together. If they were working together from early on, then Arya being 'played' was just her playing LF, letting him think he was outdoing her. And since him outdoing her seemed to do nothing in Arya's arc or character development, it clearly wasn't a humbling experience. Arya is a one trick pony now for D&D (just like all the characters they are stans of) and they have no idea what an empowered woman actually is. So we end up with a psycho who can sprout nonsense as much as she wants, kill anyone and survive anything, fail or succeed without it having any impact on her. No wonder she ends up wearing that perma-smirk every freaking episode. She knows she's the shit because D&D are stans of hers.

9 hours ago, screamin said:

I would hate it if Jon 'tamed' Arya with the application of his superior masculine reasoning and/or martial arts. But I would really like it if they had a soft heart-to-heart talk about where Arya had gone wrong and why. In the long run, everyone's dependent on everyone else in their lives for the softer supportive emotions everyone needs.

I don't see how they have time for that. Considering the politics that will take precedence in the beginning of S8 just before the endless fighting starts, I don't see how Jon and Arya can in any way believably spend enough time together to the point where Jon gets her full story and sees all the changes in Arya. Of course a lot of these characters have often watched the previous Seasons (Arya knew Talisa was pregnant despite only Rob and Talisa knowing that I believe) so Jon could very well already know everything before coming to WF. Him and Dany probably watched them between rounds of lame boatsex.

That's why the Starks should have become a unit in S7. If they are currently promoting the family as a unit prior to S8, it will be completely nonsensical once S8 comes around. Bran spend S7 tripping out, not giving a damn. And the two sisters...well we all saw that. A 1 minute scene of the two women coming together at the end doesn't erase a whole Season of being anything but a family. Completely unearned and falling absolutely flat as a result. Should have spend S7 on family drama so that when we get to S8, they are actually a family. And you can't tell me that that would have been boring to watch. Sure as heck would have been preferable to the nonsensical LF plot and 'sisters wanting to kill each other but oops that was fake' crap we were subjected to.

Edited December 31, 2018 by Smad

[screamin]

20 hours ago, Smad said:

I don't see how they have time for that. Considering the politics that will take precedence in the beginning of S8 just before the endless fighting starts, I don't see how Jon and Arya can in any way believably spend enough time together to the point where Jon gets her full story and sees all the changes in Arya. Of course a lot of these characters have often watched the previous Seasons (Arya knew Talisa was pregnant despite only Rob and Talisa knowing that I believe) so Jon could very well already know everything before coming to WF. Him and Dany probably watched them between rounds of lame boatsex.

Oh, I don't expect there to be much going into what happened between Sansa and Arya when Jon comes back. But I do expect Arya to have some complicated reactions to Jon coming back with Dany in tow, that would repeat some of the same themes. When Sansa reacts to Dany with superficial courtesy and veiled suspicion, Arya's first instinct through old habit would likely be to take the opposite attitude to be contrarian to Sansa, and initially welcome Dany enthusiastically. But the fact that her beloved Jon - the person she loved best and closest to her still alive on earth - has taken on an emotional tie that must necessarily be stronger, to a total stranger - might awake her anxiety, and thus her paranoia. If she reacts without insight into that anxiety, and turns it outward into acts of suspicion toward Dany under the guise of 'protecting' Jon, then we'll know she hasn't learned from her misjudgment of Sansa.

[Colorful Mess]

On 12/31/2018 at 3:05 PM, screamin said:

Oh, I don't expect there to be much going into what happened between Sansa and Arya when Jon comes back. But I do expect Arya to have some complicated reactions to Jon coming back with Dany in tow, that would repeat some of the same themes. When Sansa reacts to Dany with superficial courtesy and veiled suspicion, Arya's first instinct through old habit would likely be to take the opposite attitude to be contrarian to Sansa, and initially welcome Dany enthusiastically. But the fact that her beloved Jon - the person she loved best and closest to her still alive on earth - has taken on an emotional tie that must necessarily be stronger, to a total stranger - might awake her anxiety, and thus her paranoia. If she reacts without insight into that anxiety, and turns it outward into acts of suspicion toward Dany under the guise of 'protecting' Jon, then we'll know she hasn't learned from her misjudgment of Sansa.

Suspicion of outsiders makes sense though after a certain point - Arya should be afraid of Dany around Gendry and Jon because they're both male heirs. Gendry even has a stag on his war hammer. Sansa and Arya should both be on guard; Sansa already was when she cautioned Jon about what Dany wanted. They're the wolf pack and Dany is not. If Arya is going to be buddy-buddy with Dany then she would have a really obnoxious parallel with Ronnel Arryn, the bratty little kid who was so impressed by Visenya when she came to conquer the Vale, all he cared about was riding her dragon. I think she's going to be portrayed with more dignity and senses than that.

[screamin]

5 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

Suspicion of outsiders makes sense though after a certain point - Arya should be afraid of Dany around Gendry and Jon because they're both male heirs. Gendry even has a stag on his war hammer. Sansa and Arya should both be on guard; Sansa already was when she cautioned Jon about what Dany wanted. They're the wolf pack and Dany is not. If Arya is going to be buddy-buddy with Dany then she would have a really obnoxious parallel with Ronnel Arryn, the bratty little kid who was so impressed by Visenya when she came to conquer the Vale, all he cared about was riding her dragon. I think she's going to be portrayed with more dignity and senses than that.

Measured, careful suspicion toward Dany is certainly reasonable under the circumstances, if tempered with discretion and public deference. Trouble is, from what we've seen of Arya lately, she seems to have no middle gears. She was happy to see Sansa and friendly to her until Sansa disappointed her regarding Jon - then accusations of treachery flew, and soon after, death threats. And she showed no insight that that she might be wrong and putting too much confidence in her skills, or that her old grudge against Sansa might be influencing the conclusions she's jumping to.

We don't know if she's learned to second-guess herself from her mistakes, to have a little healthy doubt now and then, to consider that what she wants to believe may be influencing what she thinks she's seeing, to understand that what she wants to believe may not always be free of unworthy or selfish motives that would warp her views and lead her to dangerous misjudgements.

If she hasn't learned those important things, then I could see the following happen: Arya is initially welcoming to Dany, though disappointed to see that Jon is necessarily somewht absorbed in his new bride and his kingdom and that his relationship to Arya - a relationship that she prizes now more than with any other person living - is never going to be as close as it was in her childhood memories.

Then Dany and the rest of WF get the word that Jon is the Targaryen heir to the Iron Throne before Dany. To Arya this is unalloyed good news; not to Dany. Dany will feel shock, upset, possibly even brief anger and suspicion toward Jon that he has somehow set her up for this demotion, and - even if her love wins, as it undoubtedly will - she will feel extended ambivalence toward those at WF thereafter. And Arya, with her trained eye for reading expressions, will read every one of those emotions. What will she do with that info? Will her paranoid 'protectiveness' toward Jon rear its head again? Will she treat Dany like family, the way she treated Sansa, and spit back in her face exactly what she read in it, along with her most uncomplimentary interpretation of those expressions? Will Sansa have to end up dragging Arya away, hissing in her ear, "Yes, I know, I get it, but you can't SAY things like that to people - especially not HER!" Arya may react more maturely now, but we need to see it.

Edited January 3, 2019 by screamin

[Advance35]

I did a rewatch recently and I have to reiterate that Sansa's is one of my favorite stories, throughout the run of the show.   I feel like she has changed the most and had the most interesting journey to where she is now.

Sansa has had notable and fateful relationships with Joffrey, Cersei, Littlefinger, Shae, Tyrion, Margaery, Olenna, Theon, Robyn Arryn, Lysa Arryn and Ramsay.  She's played a role in some of the most stunning plot twist and gasp worthy denouements in the series.   I think she is the only Stark to have the true revenge of seeing Joffrey choke to death.   

I can't help but reflect on how, there was a time, I never would have dreamed Sansa would make it as far as she has.

One thing I think the show has emphasized is Sansa's appetite for revenge and her desire to never be at anyone's mercy, ever again.   I have a feeling this coming season is going to be a hard pill for her to swallow.  Jon has surrendered the North to Danerys's rule, two very prominent members of House Lannister will soon be guest of her new Queen's and Sansa herself is back to being powerless.

I can't wait to see how she is going to attempt to move forward.

[GrailKing]

4 hours ago, Advance35 said:

One thing I think the show has emphasized is Sansa's appetite for revenge and her desire to never be at anyone's mercy, ever again.

Appetite for revenge ?

Only spot we see that is with Ramsey and that's a show invention, anything else, is usually showing Sansa showing compassion even to a Lannister ( Lancel ), Tyrion; or praying to the gods to provide punishment, Slynt ; and LF wasn't protected under guest rights, she gave him a trial and acted according to the laws of the north.

Her revenge it seems to me is limited in scope and except for Ramsey ( which he deserved )seeing what he did to the old lady and others, it was fitting.

I don't think anyone not Glover, Cersei or Tyrion will have to worry.

Edited January 20, 2019 by GrailKing

[GraceK]

57 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Appetite for revenge ?

Only spot we see that is with Ramsey and that's a show invention, anything else, is usually showing Sansa showing compassion even to a Lannister ( Lancel ), Tyrion; or praying to the gods to provide punishment, Slynt ; and LF wasn't protected under guest rights, she gave him a trial and acted according to the laws of the north.

Her revenge it seems to me is limited in scope and except for Ramsey ( which he deserved )seeing what he did to the old lady and others, it was fitting.

I don't think anyone not Glover, Cersei or Tyrion will have to worry.

 

Why is the idea of Sansa embracing the idea of revenge have to be a bad thing? The Starks, and Sansa in particular have been brutally fucked with by the Lannister’s. Sansa was going to push Joffrey off the bridge back in season one. Only the hound stopped her. She hid behind her courtesy in Kings Landing ( while expertly trolling Joffrey 😂) but she would have happily seen Joffrey dead and Janos Slynt.  She may not be as bloodthirsty as Arya, and she’s not a fighter in the same way,  but that doesn’t mean she doesn’t have it in her to destroy her enemies if she has the chance. Catelyn slit the throat of Walders wife and told her son that “ we would kill them all”. Sansa is very much her mother’s daughter. I wouldn’t underestimate her just because she’s  so “compassionate “ . If we have seen anything in the series it’s the fact that Sansa has been shaped and changed by all of her trauma and experiences. I don’t see her calmly praying for justice now and compassionately forgiving her enemies. It will be very interesting to see her reaction when Jaime shows up at Winterfell what she does if she does come face to face with Cersei next season. 

Edited January 20, 2019 by GraceK

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, GraceK said:

Why is the idea of Sansa embracing the idea of revenge have to be a bad thing? The Starks, and Sansa in particular have been brutally fucked with by the Lannister’s. Sansa was going to push Joffrey off the bridge back in season one. Only the hound stopped her. She hid behind her courtesy in Kings Landing ( while expertly trolling Joffrey 😂) but she would have happily seen Joffrey dead and Janos Slynt.  She may not be as bloodthirsty as Arya, and she’s not a fighter in the same way,  but that doesn’t mean she doesn’t have it in her to destroy her enemies if she has the chance. Catelyn slit the throat of Walders wife and told her son that “ we would kill them all”. Sansa is very much her mother’s daughter. I wouldn’t underestimate her just because she’s  so “compassionate “ . If we have seen anything in the series it’s the fact that Sansa has been shaped and changed by all of her trauma and experiences. I don’t see her calmly praying for justice now and compassionately forgiving her enemies. It will be very interesting to see her reaction when Jaime shows up at Winterfell what she does if she does come face to face with Cersei next season. 

Bad thing, no, but I don't equate her anywhere near Arya ; and definitely not near Cersei. I said she's measured in her desire for revenge, and she has never used it on people who hadn't harmed her or her house i.e Lancel, Tyrion. I don't fully buy she's her mother's daughter, I give that honor to Arya.

As I said I be careful if I was Lord Glover. I am still waiting for Sansa's needle to make an appearance, just like the hairnet in the books, her needle's been hanging like a Chekhov's gun. I'm waiting for her to pull that trigger.

[Advance35]

Quote

 

Appetite for revenge ?

Only spot we see that is with Ramsey and that's a show invention, anything else, is usually showing Sansa showing compassion even to a Lannister ( Lancel ), Tyrion; or praying to the gods to provide punishment, Slynt ; and LF wasn't protected under guest rights, she gave him a trial and acted according to the laws of the north.

 

Ok, well I was talking about the show.  Where she has shown, an appetite for revenge.

She wanted Ramsay to suffer and she made sure he did.   We saw the appeal revenge held for her, way back in Season 4 when Robyn was talking about throwing "their" enemies through the moon door.

When she and Arya met again, Sansa told Arya, she didn't murder Joffrey but she wishes she had.

I find it all a very interesting character beat and I'm not convinced the book character wouldn't evolve into the same mindset, GRRM ever gets around to finishing them.

[GrailKing]

6 hours ago, Advance35 said:

Ok, well I was talking about the show.  Where she has shown, an appetite for revenge.

She wanted Ramsay to suffer and she made sure he did.   We saw the appeal revenge held for her, way back in Season 4 when Robyn was talking about throwing "their" enemies through the moon door.

When she and Arya met again, Sansa told Arya, she didn't murder Joffrey but she wishes she had.

I find it all a very interesting character beat and I'm not convinced the book character wouldn't evolve into the same mindset, GRRM ever gets around to finishing them.

An "appetite " for something means that person is driven for it badly, THAT'S not Sansa,I didn't say she never wants any revenge or it's necessarily bad , it's just measured and Ramsey was easy enough to figure out what he deserved, as she wasn't his only victim.

Book wise I think Sansa has to go gray before she get's to her end point, but I don't think it's what driving her. Home, safety and Family are her main motivation, book and show.

[Advance35]

Quote

Why is the idea of Sansa embracing the idea of revenge have to be a bad thing? The Starks, and Sansa in particular have been brutally fucked with by the Lannister’s. Sansa was going to push Joffrey off the bridge back in season one. Only the hound stopped her. She hid behind her courtesy in Kings Landing ( while expertly trolling Joffrey 😂) but she would have happily seen Joffrey dead and Janos Slynt.  She may not be as bloodthirsty as Arya, and she’s not a fighter in the same way,  but that doesn’t mean she doesn’t have it in her to destroy her enemies if she has the chance.

IA.  I think both GRRM and the show writers have displayed her hunger for revenge (albeit with more subtlety in the book).  She's not as "ostentatious" as Cersei and Dany, but give Sansa the means and opportunity, she'll give back whenever she can.

There is a coldness to her that's not surprising considering all that's happened.  It's a shame the show doesn't have more time to explore it.

Edited January 20, 2019 by Advance35

[screamin]

On ‎1‎/‎20‎/‎2019 at 11:08 AM, Advance35 said:

.  I think both GRRM and the show writers have displayed her hunger for revenge (albeit with more subtlety in the book).  

I don't really see it, either in the books or on the show. We see Book Sansa think mostly with horror of Lysa's end even though she tried to kill Sansa, also with horror of Marillion's tortures even though he was a full and willing accomplice of Lysa's attempt to murder Sansa...I saw no righteous feeling of satisfaction that they'd got what they deserved in her thoughts afterwards,  such as what you'd expect to find in someone deeply invested in holding onto a grudge until satisfying it - however long savoring that satisfaction takes. Acting out on impulse - yes, she's capable of that when pushed, as when she almost jumped with Joffrey from the wall save for the intervention of the Hound. She also laughed when Joffrey died. But cold-bloodedly planning out a long-term revenge purely for the sake of it? We didn't see that in the books. When LF told her about how he had various schemes cooking but was annoyed that Cersei was bringing ruin on herself too fast and messing up his timetables, Sansa did not ask how Cersei was ruining herself to savor the details, much less urge LF to help ruin her faster. One gets the impression that while she'd be happy to get justice, her top priority is peace and safety for herself and those around her (remember, LF's motivation for her to pretend to be his daughter at all times in her heart was to threaten to kill anyone she accidentally revealed her secret to and lay the guilt on her for it, not a promise to revenge her wrongs).

In the shows? She's really not much different, IMO. We don't see her urging some plot against Cersei (If she were, she'd be cheerleading an alliance with the Dragon Queen who wants to burn the Iron Throne out from under Cersei right from the start, under the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" principle.) Yes, she chooses Ramsey's terrible death. But given that he'd raped her repeatedly in the recent past and that he'd just killed Rickon, I think that belongs in the hot blooded reactive revenge. I don't see her engaging in careful long term planning to attain vengeance, especially not by sacrificing safety to furthur such plotting. Which is why her going along with LF's nonsensical idea to marry her off to Ramsey, son of Roose the betrayer of her father for 'revenge' (revenge HOW? What's the compensation for my risking my safety in the castle of the flayer betrayer that's about to become a war zone when Stannis attacks? What's the freakin' PLAN?) was one of the show's worst writing failures.

Edited January 23, 2019 by screamin

[Smad]

2 hours ago, screamin said:

Yes, she chooses Ramsey's terrible death. But given that he'd raped her repeatedly in the recent past and that he'd just killed Rickon, I think that belongs in the hot blooded reactive revenge.

I'm not even sure if she was the one choosing Ramsey's death tbh. We see her asking Jon where Ramsey is and the next scene is her being there with Ramsey, all set up already. People assume it was Sansa who chose this setup but how can we know for sure?

I don't see Sansa as revenge thirsty at all, she is not Arya. Arya is literally the embodiment of revenge thirst, after all she is the one with a death list and any of the targets on her list she could get her hands on, she went after with gusto. Sansa never did that, she didn't even scheme in a Cersei/LittleFinger way to make it happen. Even with Ramsey, it was as much about getting her home back as it was to kill the people who have hurt her/her family, so it wasn't purely for revenge. Yes the whole S5 storyline was touted as 'marrying the enemy for revenge' but since that didn't even make sense and Sansa did nothing while in WF, it amounted to nothing, much less revenge of any kind. It wasn't even a rape revenge story, since Sansa never actively did anything herself to exact revenge. The most active thing she did was bring in the Vale forces by calling on LF but that's not exactly about pure revenge either as her side needed more men to win back WF. And then with Ramsey she was just there while the dogs where there.

[screamin]

7 hours ago, Smad said:

I'm not even sure if she was the one choosing Ramsey's death tbh. We see her asking Jon where Ramsey is and the next scene is her being there with Ramsey, all set up already. People assume it was Sansa who chose this setup but how can we know for sure?

I don't see Sansa as revenge thirsty at all, she is not Arya. Arya is literally the embodiment of revenge thirst, after all she is the one with a death list and any of the targets on her list she could get her hands on, she went after with gusto. Sansa never did that, she didn't even scheme in a Cersei/LittleFinger way to make it happen. Even with Ramsey, it was as much about getting her home back as it was to kill the people who have hurt her/her family, so it wasn't purely for revenge. Yes the whole S5 storyline was touted as 'marrying the enemy for revenge' but since that didn't even make sense and Sansa did nothing while in WF, it amounted to nothing, much less revenge of any kind. It wasn't even a rape revenge story, since Sansa never actively did anything herself to exact revenge. The most active thing she did was bring in the Vale forces by calling on LF but that's not exactly about pure revenge either as her side needed more men to win back WF. And then with Ramsey she was just there while the dogs where there.

I wouldn't say Sansa is devoid of the desire for revenge. If revenge is gusto in someone's deserved punishment beyond simple dispassionate satisfaction in justice done, then her smile at the death of Ramsey showed that she does feel it to some extent. IMO, very few humans are entirely free of it. She didn't feel it enough to watch him die and savor every moment of agony, nor to order the far more prolonged and painful death by flaying that SOME Northerners (say, the relatives of the old woman Ramsey tortured to death by that method) would say was the just and fitting way for Ramsey to meet his end. But gusto? Yes, she did feel that. 

What she wouldn't do, IMO, is make revenge her principle motivation for acting - prolong it beyond the raw anger of recent pain to make it her long term principal goal, sacrificing the safety of herself and others to achieve it. I don't think her pushing Jon to try to raise the banners of war against Ramsey was principally about revenge. It was about safety. Jon may have thought he could just pack a duffle bag and walk away from the Wall and the North with Sansa as partner on a road trip wherever if she wanted to come, but Sansa knew Ramsey would not let her leave the North. Nor would Ramsey abide Jon leaving the NW to go south with his wildlings, considering Jon free of his NW vows a threat to his claim to WF and wildlings vermin to exterminate. It was fight or die in that situation. Revenge was merely a fringe benefit of winning - the goal was survival.

[ursula]

On 1/23/2019 at 11:24 AM, Smad said:

We see her asking Jon where Ramsey is and the next scene is her being there with Ramsey, all set up already. People assume it was Sansa who chose this setup but how can we know for sure?

Actually the Battle ends when Jon almost beats Ramsey to death then "comes to" when he realizes that Sansa is standing behind him. He then moves away, conceding to her, and there's a definite air of "this is not my kill". The next we see/hear of Ramsey, he's locked up with his dogs and when he says his dogs won't hurt him, Sansa throws his earlier threat from their parley in his face: the dogs were deliberately starved so that they'd be especially blood thirsty. It's the same parley where she also told him that "you will die tonight Ramsey, sleep well". So yeah, Sansa definitely orchestrated every aspect of Ramsey's execution.

Which I personally thought was badass af.

But then again, I have never understood the desire to "soften" female characters to make them more appealing.

What's particularly peeving about this is that more often than not, the show often softens bookSansa (Kneelgate, anyone) so this one moment where they let her basically be a person and not some ideal, was awesome. I don't know why anyone would want to excuse or explain it away.

Edited January 29, 2019 by ursula

[GraceK]

56 minutes ago, ursula said:

Actually the Battle ends when Jon almost beats Ramsey to death then "comes to" when he realizes that Sansa is standing behind him. He then moves away, conceding to her, and there's a definite air of "this is not my kill". The next we see/hear of Ramsey, he's locked up with his dogs and when he says his dogs won't hurt him, Sansa throws his earlier threat from their parley in his face: the dogs were deliberately starved so that they'd be especially blood thirsty. It's the same parley where she also told him that "you will die tonight Ramsey, sleep well". So yeah, Sansa definitely orchestrated every aspect of Ramsey's execution.

Which I personally thought was badass af.

But then again, I have never understood the desire to "soften" female characters to make them more appealing.

What's particularly peeving about this is that more often than not, the show often softens bookSansa (Kneelgate, anyone) so this one moment where they let her basically be a person and not some ideal, was awesome. I don't know why anyone would want to excuse or explain it away.

Seriously. She even stands there and gives the bad ass “ your words will disappear “ taunt and walks away with a smile on her face. It’s the ultimate “ take back the night“ moment for her . Why anyone wants to water it down and give it to someone else is beyond me.  

[Smad]

3 hours ago, ursula said:

Actually the Battle ends when Jon almost beats Ramsey to death then "comes to" when he realizes that Sansa is standing behind him. He then moves away, conceding to her, and there's a definite air of "this is not my kill". The next we see/hear of Ramsey, he's locked up with his dogs and when he says his dogs won't hurt him, Sansa throws his earlier threat from their parley in his face: the dogs were deliberately starved so that they'd be especially blood thirsty. It's the same parley where she also told him that "you will die tonight Ramsey, sleep well". So yeah, Sansa definitely orchestrated every aspect of Ramsey's execution.

I can only go by what's on screen. Sansa was gone when Ramsey mentioned that he hadn't fed his hounds in 7 days, so she shouldn't even know about it. But she probably checked Ramsey's twitter just before the battle and that's how she knew. Sansa asks where Ramsey is and the next shot is of him already locked up and Sansa standing there. She might have chosen this fate for Ramsey or she might not. Sansa doesn't seem to have the authority to decide peoples fates in WF at this point. After all, Jon decided Melisandre's fate in the next episode even though he has no authority to do so (Sansa is supposedly the ruler of WF after all). Since he has the authority and not Sansa, I can only conclude that Jon put Ramsey in the kennels and Sansa was just there to watch.

3 hours ago, ursula said:

But then again, I have never understood the desire to "soften" female characters to make them more appealing.

I've never understood the thinking that soft = weak. There is nothing wrong with feminine women.

3 hours ago, ursula said:

Which I personally thought was badass af.

Yeah, rape revenge. What a badass story. Except this is not supposed to be a shitty action movie from the 80's.

3 hours ago, ursula said:

What's particularly peeving about this is that more often than not, the show often softens bookSansa (Kneelgate, anyone) so this one moment where they let her basically be a person and not some ideal, was awesome. I don't know why anyone would want to excuse or explain it away.

Because the whole storyline was stupid from it's very inception. Marry the enemy for revenge? What a bunch of BS. And it made both Sansa and LF utter morons. The whole point of Ramsey marrying fArya in the books is to legitimize the Bolton's hold over the North and WF. In the show, they hand him an actual Stark to marry and it did nothing for anyone. Sansa didn't plot any sort of revenge and did nothing except get brutalized daily and the North didn't care.

Sansa in the books is a very internal character who is all about internal resistance because she has no other agency so she takes what little she can get (hence her not kneeling for Tyrion). But she is also a deeply empathetic character who cries over Joffrey's death and kicking herself for not enjoying it. She is upset about Marillion's death who tried to rape her. D&D have never done Sansa right because unless you are a sword wielding man in a woman's body (Brienne, Arya), a seductress (Margery), a loudmouth (Lyanna, Oleanna) or evil (Cersei)...you are not worth their time. And you know what all of these women have in common (except Margery)? They utterly loath feminine women. Lyanna Mormont and Arya are what D&D think empowered women are. They are sexist and misogynistic in regards to other women, especially if said women are feminine. Arya and Brienne are nothing like that in the books either.

And that moment with Ramsey and the dogs was not badass to me because the whole storyline of how Sansa got there was nonsensical, contrived and utterly stupid. Because the story was all about Ramsey with a side helping of getting Theon to snap out of it. It was never about Sansa's story. They decided to screw over Sansa and discard her story (the end of S4 was supposed to be a new beginning) and took her away from her own storyline (learning to play the game in the Vale) to victimize her yet again (only even worse now) in service of Ramsey (D&D's favorite Villain Sue) and Theon (another fave character of theirs).

Edited January 29, 2019 by Smad

[ursula]

9 hours ago, Smad said:

There is nothing wrong with feminine women.

Let's just get this out of the way:

Every woman is feminine by definition. Specifying "feminine" as a qualifier for some women implies that there are other women who are not "feminine", which in turn implies that there is a Right Way to Women, which in turn implies that there's a Wrong Way to Woman.

Softness =/= weakness and softness =/= strength. Just like the ability to swing a sword doesn't necessary make a female character better, neither is inherent softness.

The only thing that separates a narratively good character from a bad character is whether that character has agency or not. 

That's it. Everything else is window-dressing. To use a food analogy, if a character doesn't have agency, then it's rotten fruit. It doesn't matter if it's an apple or an orange.

By your own admission, for a long time, Sansa didn't have agency both Watsonianly, and Doylistically in the TV adaptation.

This alternative interpretation that takes the responsibility of Ramsay's execution from someone who had personal and political reasons for his death that was at the time - by your own admission - the Lord Protector of Winterfell and Warden of the North (which is hers by all the laws of succession: she is Robb Stark, the King in the North's legitimate heir; she is the last Warden's wife-soon-to-be-widow; and her armies from the Vale just conquered Winterfell: birth-right, marriage and conquest), and is absolutely 100% where "the buck stopped" on the decision to execute a high-ranking prisoner  ---- well this interpretation strips her of her agency and diminishes her as a character. 

(And that's all I'm going to say about that).

Edited January 29, 2019 by ursula

[Smad]

On 29.1.2019 at 5:55 PM, ursula said:

Every woman is feminine by definition. Specifying "feminine" as a qualifier for some women implies that there are other women who are not "feminine", which in turn implies that there is a Right Way to Women, which in turn implies that there's a Wrong Way to Woman.

I'm talking about feminine women in terms of D&D's view of femininity. Not what we understand it to be. D&D are DudeBros through and through who have made it very clear how sexist they are, how much they don't understand women and that they have no clue how women are, much less what an empowered woman is. You can see that in most of the female characters. It's actually not that hard to miss. And they have never known what to do with Sansa (of all main female characters she's had it the worst) because internal strength and resistance means nothing to them. That's not empowered.

On 29.1.2019 at 5:55 PM, ursula said:

The only thing that separates a narratively good character from a bad character is whether that character has agency or not. 

So to you, a character who for example is in prison or a prisoner (like Sansa in KL or someone falsely imprisoned) is a bad character because they were forced into a situation where they have no agency? That's so wrong. Someone can still be a good character even if they have no agency. Or would you consider a child that's abused by a parent (child has no agency) a bad narrative character just because they lack agency? Agency has little to do with a good narrative character, writing is what makes or breaks good characters.

On 29.1.2019 at 5:55 PM, ursula said:

This alternative interpretation that takes the responsibility of Ramsay's execution from someone who had personal and political reasons for his death that was at the time - by your own admission - the Lord Protector of Winterfell and Warden of the North (which is hers by all the laws of succession: she is Robb Stark, the King in the North's legitimate heir; she is the last Warden's wife-soon-to-be-widow; and her armies from the Vale just conquered Winterfell: birth-right, marriage and conquest), and is absolutely 100% where "the buck stopped" on the decision to execute a high-ranking prisoner  ---- well this interpretation strips her of her agency and diminishes her as a character. 

I'm not taking anything from her. I'm talking about the absolute shitty writing that makes it possible for me to doubt it. Simple as that. By omitting whether she set it up or not and the episode after making it clear that she has no authority on executions (or banishment), the writers have effectively made it possible for me to doubt it. And I'm not the only one who did/does doubt it. And not getting rape revenge has never stripped anyone of agency, unless your POV is that unless a rape victim gets bloody revenge, they didn't exert agency. There are a million ways for anyone, victims included, to exert their agency without being diminished.

Edited January 30, 2019 by Smad

[merrick715]

On 1/28/2019 at 10:22 PM, ursula said:

What's particularly peeving about this is that more often than not, the show often softens bookSansa (Kneelgate, anyone) so this one moment where they let her basically be a person and not some ideal, was awesome. I don't know why anyone would want to excuse or explain it away.

I don't think they changed the wedding between Sansa and Tyrion as a way to soften Sansa. I felt like those changes were mostly made to soften Tyrion, and if those changes softened Sansa, well it was coincidental. Book Tyrion knew that he was going to marry Sansa, and said nothing to her. Instead, Sansa finds out about her upcoming nuptials, on the day of said nuptials because Cersei gives her a new dress, and pretty much forces Sansa to walk down the aisle.

 

At first, Sansa refuses to kneel because she is pissed, and its' her only way to rebel against her surprise! forced! wedding. Book Sansa finally kneels because she feels bad that people are laughing at Tyrion. Show Tyrion stops Sansa from even undressing because he knows she doesn't want to consummate the marriage. Book Tyrion doesn't say anything when Sansa strips, then he undresses, before climbing into bed, and begins to touch her naked body. Both book and show Tyrion know that Sansa doesn't want this, but the showrunners changed it so Tyrion didn't end up committing sexual assault. I was disappointed in the way the show handled Sansa and Tyrion's marriage, and the idea that not kneeling is some kind of sin that Sansa needs to be punished for really annoys me.  Sansa was 100% behind Ramsay getting eaten by his own dogs. The only question I had was who physically helped to haul Ramsay's body to the kennels, and then tied him up.

[Eyes High]

On 1/29/2019 at 2:34 AM, Smad said:

But she is also a deeply empathetic character

Sansa isn't deeply empathetic, or particularly empathetic at all. She has moments of being kind, like most characters (even the characters GRRM describes as "villains" like Sandor, Theon and Jaime). However, she also has moments of being horribly cruel and callous, particularly to Arya and Jon, the former she mocked for years as "Horseface," and the latter she constantly reminded of his bastardy to the point that he only begrudgingly misses her. If Sansa were in fact a "deeply empathetic" person as you claim, she would realize how much it would hurt Arya to be tormented for her supposed ugliness and Jon to be reminded that he is "only" a bastard and not her "real" brother, but she did it for years anyway (and apparently allowed Jeyne to bully Arya as well). So she was either too self-absorbed to realize how much she was hurting Jon and Arya with her nasty behaviour or too much of a callous bitch to care. Either way, she is not and never has been "deeply empathetic." Pretty much the opposite, in fact.  Also, in the books she never shows the slightest bit of regret about how she treated Jon and Arya and not the slightest bit of reflection as to how her behaviour hurt them as it obviously did, so it's not as if she develops any greater sensitivity or empathy towards them past AGOT. In fact, she laments in ASOS (when she believes her sister to be dead) that Arya had been "entirely unsatisfactory" as far as sisters go and she forgets about Jon altogether until Myranda brings him up in AFFC.

This supposed paragon of empathy shows not one moment of concern over Arya's dead friend Mycah--putting her about on the same level as Sandor, who laughs about Mycah's death--and lies to her grieving sister's face about Mycah attacking Joffrey. You would think she would improve over the course of the books, but no. She gets annoyed with the terrified Jeyne's crying, is relieved when she no longer has to deal with her once Jeyne is removed from her presence, and then forgets about her, never wondering what has happened to the friend whom we later find was tortured and enslaved. Sansa realizes in AFFC that she's pretty much forgotten about Jon, and then only thinks that it would be sweet to see him even though he's "only" her half brother, because her "real" brothers are dead. She's callous towards Robin's safety to the point where she shrugs off the maester's attempts to warn her about sweetsleep.

Even when Sansa is forced to masquerade as a bastard herself in the Vale and has to deal with the resulting loss of status, she never once reflects on how hard things must have been for Jon as a bastard, or how Jon must have felt when she constantly referred to him as a bastard. She even forgets Jon exists until Myranda mentions him! If you needed proof of Sansa's relative lack of empathy, much less "deep" empathy, there it is.

If Sansa's "deeply empathetic" for occasionally doing the nice thing despite showing not a shred of empathy towards two of her siblings for several years, her best friend, and an innocent if bratty child, well, I'd hate to see what you think a lack of empathy looks like. She's not a villain, although at times even the "villains" like Jaime have shown more compassion than her, but she's never been a nice person in the books, and she never will be.

I'd argue TV Sansa isn't any bitchier than Book Sansa. It's just that Book Sansa's gloss of courtesy has been removed, making her nastiness stand out more starkly.

Book Sansa's characterization is another one of GRRM's studies in appearances being deceiving. Book Sansa is beautiful, beautifully dressed, courteous and exceedingly gracious, but underneath it all she's not a very nice person. Book Arya is rough around the edges, unladylike, unrefined, and violent, but she shows far more true kindness than Sansa ever has.

As for Kneelgate, there was nothing admirable, much less heroic, about Book Sansa refusing to kneel for Tyrion, which is why Sansa, who almost never shows or feels any guilt about the terrible things she does in the books--bullying Arya for years, reminding Jon of his bastardy for years, lying about Joffrey and not backing up her sister, selling out her family to save her betrothal, thinking Margaery's an improvement in the sister department, etc.--actually feels guilty about it. It was such a shitty thing to do that even Sansa realized it. That's why it was changed for the show. It's not a coincidence that in the show, Joffrey became the one in that scene who used Tyrion's disability to humiliate him, and not Sansa. That should give you the sense that Sansa's refusal to kneel for Tyrion isn't actually the heroic act of reclaiming agency that you seem to think it is.

Edited February 1, 2019 by Eyes High

[Smad]

5 hours ago, Eyes High said:

However, she also has moments of being horribly cruel and callous, particularly to Arya and Jon, the former she mocked for years as "Horseface," and the latter she constantly reminded of his bastardy to the point that he only begrudgingly misses her.

And here I thought it was Jeyne who called Arya 'horseface' a lot. And Sansa isn't the only one referring to Jon as a bastard. Robb and Arya do too. But it's fine when they do right?

 

5 hours ago, Eyes High said:

As for Kneelgate, there was nothing admirable, much less heroic, about Book Sansa refusing to kneel for Tyrion, which is why Sansa, who almost never shows or feels any guilt about the terrible things she does in the books--bullying Arya for years, reminding Jon of his bastardy for years, lying about Joffrey and not backing up her sister, selling out her family to save her betrothal, thinking Margaery's an improvement in the sister department, etc.--actually feels guilty about it. It was such a shitty thing to do that even Sansa realized it

Are you serious? A freaking 12 year old, who is a prisoner, gets told like 5 seconds before it happens that she gets married off to someone she doesn't want. Someone who, unlike in the show, was all hot for it. And she is shitty for not kneeling? I can't even...that's disgusting. But I guess she had it coming right? Like the beatings by the Kingsguard? Just like she had her rapes and brutalization coming in the show? After all, what child doesn't?

Look I get the hate but she is a freaking child (age 11-12) in all this. Why does a freaking child get so much hate compared to adult characters? Children can still change and that should be allowed for. All of us have done some pretty crappy stuff as children. But to judge her as if she is an adult and to excuse all the other characters, most of whom start from a much better place character wise, will never make sense to me.

[Eyes High]

53 minutes ago, Smad said:

And here I thought it was Jeyne who called Arya 'horseface' a lot.

I'm afraid you're very much mistaken:

Quote

She bit her lip, groping for another name. Lommy had called her Lumpyhead, Sansa used Horseface, and her father's men once dubbed her Arya Underfoot, but she did not think any of those were the sort of name he wanted.

"Deeply empathetic" people don't use nasty, hurtful nicknames, because they know that shit hurts. Sansa doesn't have that problem, of course.

The books are pretty clear that Sansa used "Horseface" plenty. And she obviously enabled Jeyne's bullying, since Sansa could have easily put a stop to Jeyne's behaviour if she had ordered Jeyne to knock it off. But of course, that would have meant that Sansa had taken Arya's feelings into account, and that has never been one of Sansa's priorities...which is fine and all, but it means that "deeply empathetic" is a remarkably poor descriptor of Sansa's character.

Quote

And Sansa isn't the only one referring to Jon as a bastard. Robb and Arya do too. But it's fine when they do right?

And yet Jon specifically remembers that Sansa had only ever called him her half-brother the minute she understood what "bastard" meant, and we see this in Arya's very first chapter in AGOT. Arya is the one who gets angry when Sansa dismissively refers to Jon as a bastard as a way of writing off his opinion of Joffrey, and when Arya hotly defends Jon by saying that he's their brother, Sansa snidely corrects her by saying "half-brother." This seems to have been representative of the way Sansa has been acting from the day she understood the meaning of "bastard," so it's no wonder Jon only begrudgingly misses Sansa while missing Arya desperately.

Quote

And she is shitty for not kneeling?

Yes. D&D obviously agreed, since they gave an equivalent action to Sansa's to what was then the show's main villain (Joffrey) with much the same effect. That should tell you something, as I said.

It seems from your focus on everything that Sansa suffered that you have much sadness and compassion for Sansa's plight, beatings, rapes (even though she wasn't raped in the books), etc. but you don't seem to care at all about the plight of people Sansa has hurt with her actions. You have no compassion for Arya being bullied by Sansa, the effect Sansa's actions had on Jon, etc. And that's pretty much Sansa's problem as well, isn't it? She's all about her own suffering and her own losses, but she almost never acknowledges what she has done to others. She cries buckets over Lady, but ignores Arya's grief over Mycah. Typical. That is the opposite of a "deeply empathetic" character.

Quote

Look I get the hate but she is a freaking child (age 11-12) in all this. Why does a freaking child get so much hate compared to adult characters? Children can still change and that should be allowed for. All of us have done some pretty crappy stuff as children. But to judge her as if she is an adult and to excuse all the other characters, most of whom start from a much better place character wise, will never make sense to me.

Who's excusing the other characters? You claimed that Book Sansa is "deeply empathetic" when in fact it is obvious that she has shown very little empathy in the books. If we have no business assessing Sansa's character because she is a "freaking child," then you have no business characterizing her character as "deeply empathetic," either. You want to label Sansa as "deeply empathetic" but then when that claim is evaluated, you complain about how we have no business judging her and desperately seek to gloss over her behaviour with a bizarre argument that "All of us have done some pretty crappy stuff as children." That seems a little self-serving as far as arguments go, in my opinion.

As for the "children can still change" argument...Sansa was never a particularly nice or empathetic person. If Sansa's trials and tribulations to date haven't led her to become more reflective and empathetic about others' feelings and the pain she has caused others, and it appears that they haven't, I don't know what will. I'd say trauma's the only thing that truly changes a person, and all of Sansa's trauma hasn't made a single dent in her lack of empathy. Book Sansa as of AFFC is as empathetic as she'll ever be, which I would say is not very much. From what we've seen of TV Sansa's callous, self-centered behaviour, it seems like this is where she'll end up in ADOS character-wise if it's ever published.

I'd say that people who are disappointed at how bitchy, nasty and self-centered TV Sansa is never really understood Book Sansa's character to begin with.

Edited February 1, 2019 by Eyes High

[SeanC]

7 hours ago, Eyes High said:

You would think she would improve over the course of the books, but no. She gets annoyed with the terrified Jeyne's crying, is relieved when she no longer has to deal with her once Jeyne is removed from her presence, and then forgets about her, never wondering what has happened to the friend whom we later find was tortured and enslaved.

That is objectively incorrect.  Sansa explicitly thinks about Jeyne a number of times, and it's specifically noted that she tries not to think about Jeyne, Mordane et al. because doing so makes it hard for her to keep her act up:

She missed Septa Mordane, and even more Jeyne Poole, her truest friend. The septa had lost her head with the rest, for the crime of serving House Stark. Sansa did not know what had happened to Jeyne, who had disappeared from her rooms afterward, never to be mentioned again. She tried not to think of them too often, yet sometimes the memories came unbidden, and then it was hard to hold back the tears.

Sansa is absolutely a very empathetic person in the books.  She doesn't start out that way, in particular because of the class system that she unreservedly believes in, but GRRM begins to change that almost immediately, which is why her empathizing with the Hound in AGOT Sansa II is such a big deal, both for her and for him (that moment changes his life, frankly).

Is Sansa the only empathetic person in the books?  Certainly not.  But the transformative power of empathy and compassion is a big part of her story, and her character arc.

In the context of the above discussion, I'd say it's especially significant in that Sansa is capable of empathizing to a fair degree even with people who are not on her side, or who have wronged her.  She risks her life repeatedly to help others, whether peasants or people like Margaery Tyrell (and the Tyrells certainly don't return the kindness and loyalty she extends them).

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As for Kneelgate, there was nothing admirable, much less heroic, about Book Sansa refusing to kneel for Tyrion, which is why Sansa, who almost never shows or feels any guilt about the terrible things she does in the books--bullying Arya for years, reminding Jon of his bastardy for years, lying about Joffrey and not backing up her sister, selling out her family to save her betrothal, thinking Margaery's an improvement in the sister department, etc.--actually feels guilty about it. It was such a shitty thing to do that even Sansa realized it. That's why it was changed for the show. It's not a coincidence that in the show, Joffrey became the one in that scene who used Tyrion's disability to humiliate him, and not Sansa. That should give you the sense that Sansa's refusal to kneel for Tyrion isn't actually the heroic act of reclaiming agency that you seem to think it is.

"Heroic" I don't know, but Sansa refusing to kneel is a big moment for her character because it's the only vehicle afforded her for defying the Lannisters, and in that context that includes Tyrion.

Indeed, that she feels bad for Tyrion, who is (as far as they both know) about to rape her is a pretty strong argument against your position that she's not an empathetic character.  

The writers of the show omitted the moment because they knew that the audience would automatically side with Tyrion rather than the girl being forced at spearpoint to marry and expecting to be raped by said person before the end of the night, which is a pretty profound indictment of the audience, but says nothing bad about Sansa.

Edited February 1, 2019 by SeanC

[screamin]

8 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Sansa isn't deeply empathetic, or particularly empathetic at all. She has moments of being kind, like most characters (even the characters GRRM describes as "villains" like Sandor, Theon and Jaime). However, she also has moments of being horribly cruel and callous, particularly to Arya and Jon, the former she mocked for years as "Horseface," and the latter she constantly reminded of his bastardy to the point that he only begrudgingly misses her. ..Sansa realizes in AFFC that she's pretty much forgotten about Jon, and then only thinks that it would be sweet to see him even though he's "only" her half brother, because her "real" brothers are dead.

 

The sins you're putting to her account from the beginning of the show when she was a kid - well, kids learn empathy over time, they are not born with an unalterable amount of it that they can NEVER increase. So pointing out her sins as a child don't prove anything about how her character develops. Not to mention you omit all the times she DID show empathy, as if you're trying to stack the deck against her. If she REALLY is as sociopathic as you're trying to make her out to be, you wouldn't need to omit info to prove your point.  Yes, she thought of Jon as her bastard brother. But do a search of the books for "bastard brother" and you'll find that Bran thinks of Jon as his 'bastard brother" more often. It was the way they all were raised. And Jon doesn't think of Sansa with any particular resentment - in fact, he thinks of her with less resentment than he did toward Robb, who'd thrown his bastard status in his face more forcefully than he ever remembered Sansa doing it - an occasion that he hurt him so deeply he was vengefully dreaming of killing Robb for it years later. Are we to assume from this that Robb was an even WORSE sociopathic monster than Sansa? Or maybe that most kids CAN act like monstrous brats at times, and it's a little more complicated than that?

Jon, IIRC, never recalls in the books any negative insult or interaction with Sansa. If he only remembers her rarely as a vaguely pleasant element in the background of his memories or the source of one piece of useful advice about how to talk to girls, it seems to me more likely that he doesn't think of her often because they were never close enough or had enough in common for her to be important to him, rather than that she continuously tormented him in ways he doesn't remember. (He certainly has no problem remembering the slights he's received from others).

You stack the deck against her here as well:

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She gets annoyed with the terrified Jeyne's crying, is relieved when she no longer has to deal with her once Jeyne is removed from her presence, and then forgets about her, never wondering what has happened to the friend whom we later find was tortured and enslaved...She's callous towards Robin's safety to the point where she shrugs off the maester's attempts to warn her about sweetsleep.

You put in information she couldn't possibly know about Jeyne's fate to make her seem extra callous in ignoring it. (ETA: SeanC also points out above that you're wrong about her never thinking about Jeyne again). You also accuse her of being callous about Sweetrobin's safety in urging the use of sweetsleep, but omit the fact that the maester never told her sweetsleep was dangerous.

Most importantly, you omit her saving the life of Ser Dontos - an act in which she risked her life for a person who could not benefit her in any way, simply because she pitied that person. You omit her telling Margaery the truth about Joffrey out of pity for her fate as his wife - this was despite her intense and realistic fear of punishment, AND not because she was expecting to benefit from Margaery and her family - they only offered her refuge in their family AFTER she told them the truth. Both these things were based on pure empathy. To brush off these actions that risked her own life as "occasionally doing the nice thing" (as if they were the same as tossing a quarter to a panhandler) without even MENTIONING them is distorting in the extreme. She also helped Lancel when he was wounded - a man who she had plenty of reason to resent, who could be no source of help in return - and when LF wanted to extort her into playing the part of his daughter to perfection, he used her empathy against her by telling her that she would bear the guilt of any person he murdered to cover for her mistakes. ("Do you want MORE blood on your pretty hands, sweetling?")

To me actions - actions to help taken despite risk to oneself - speak louder than words, much less thoughts. If you brush aside the most important, helpful, courageous deeds of her life as unimportant and revealing nothing of her character, and condemn her because you cherrypicked the absolute worst of her thoughts to judge her by, you're setting up a standard for her that no human being could meet.

Edited February 2, 2019 by screamin

[SeanC]

5 minutes ago, screamin said:

You also accuse her of being callous about Sweetrobin's safety in urging, but omit the fact that the maester never told her sweetsleep was dangerous.

Minor point, but the maester does say it has harmful properties, but it's framed as being a side effect of a medicine that, as far as Sansa sees, is necessary in order to manage the politics of Robert's situation.  She doesn't know that sweetsleep is a poison, which is how it's described to Arya in a different chapter of the same book.

As far as Sansa's attitude toward Robert in general, she states she feels pity for him.  She also doesn't want to marry him, when that prospect is initially raised, and finds his behaviour wearisome, which I'd call quite understandable (she extends him far more sympathy than much of the books' readership does, frankly).

Edited February 2, 2019 by SeanC

[screamin]

23 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Minor point, but the maester does say it has harmful properties, but it's framed as being a side effect of a medicine that, as far as Sansa sees, is necessary in order to manage the politics of Robert's situation.  She doesn't know that sweetsleep is a poison, which is how it's described to Arya in a different chapter of the same book.

IIRC, he never actually says that sweetsleep is harmful, just that he shouldn't have it so often. It is implied there may be side effects but these aren't described. He certainly doesn't explain that there is any danger of serious harm - if he did, Sansa would undoubtedly have not wanted to use it, even if she were an arrant sociopath, because LF would lose his power and likely his life (and probably hers by extension) if SR died under his care.

Edited February 2, 2019 by screamin

[anamika]

@Eyes High Agree with everything you said, except Kneel gate. Sansa was a prisoner and being forced to marry someone she dislikes. That was her way of showing her resistance and defiance and I don't find anything wrong with that. But that does show that all this constant 'Sansa survived KL with her charm and courtesies' and that "Arya would never" stuff to be a load of nonsense. Because Sansa was impulsive (She nearly pushed Joff off to his death) and discourteous (She refused to kneel for Tyrion) and still survived because there were people like the Hound, LF and Tyrion looking out for her and making sure she survived. Just like there would have been people making sure Stark hostage Arya survived.

It does say something about our society that folks can read about Arya and Sansa and come to the conclusion that Sansa is the more kind, compassionate, maternal version of the two. Sansa is often associated with marriage and babies. Yet she is annoyed by SweetRobin, even locks her door at night so that SR does not come in and disturb her, callously brushes aside the Maester's warnings about the Sweetsleep being dangerous because LF's plans are more important. Whereas Arya makes sure that Weasel is fed and rested and is able to keep along with them even though she is clingy and slows down their journey and everyone tells her to leave Weasel behind. But Sansa is considered the kinder, more maternal of the two because she is 'traditionally feminine".

4 hours ago, SeanC said:

That is objectively incorrect.  Sansa explicitly thinks about Jeyne a number of times, and it's specifically noted that she tries not to think about Jeyne, Mordane et al. because doing so makes it hard for her to keep her act up:

She missed Septa Mordane, and even more Jeyne Poole, her truest friend. The septa had lost her head with the rest, for the crime of serving House Stark. Sansa did not know what had happened to Jeyne, who had disappeared from her rooms afterward, never to be mentioned again. She tried not to think of them too often, yet sometimes the memories came unbidden, and then it was hard to hold back the tears.

 

This is funny, because Sansa was right there when Cersei hands Jeyne over to LF. All Sansa needs to do to find out what happened to Jeyne is ask the man she is plotting with in the Vale about what happened to Jeyne.

4 hours ago, SeanC said:

Sansa is absolutely a very empathetic person in the books.  She doesn't start out that way, in particular because of the class system that she unreservedly believes in, but GRRM begins to change that almost immediately, which is why her empathizing with the Hound in AGOT Sansa II is such a big deal, both for her and for him (that moment changes his life, frankly).

She can empathize with the Hound but not the child he brutally cut into half while he was fleeing? That is supposed to show her as more empathetic? As mentioned above, Sansa has moments of kindness but she is still very much classist and does not give a damn about the poor butcher's boy who was the real victim in all that. As pointed above, as late as book 3, Sansa thinks that her dead sister was unsatisfactory because she was not pretty and charming like Margaery - showing that she still does not get it, because the Tyrells were using her and she once again got duped by appearances. As late as book 5, she was thinking that she will have to make do with Jon because her real siblings were all dead and only he was left.

3 hours ago, screamin said:

Yes, she thought of Jon as her bastard brother. But do a search of the books for "bastard brother" and you'll find that Bran thinks of Jon as his 'bastard brother" more often. It was the way they all were raised. And Jon doesn't think of Sansa with any particular resentment - in fact, he thinks of her with less resentment than he did toward Robb, who'd thrown his bastard status in his face more forcefully than he ever remembered Sansa doing it -

I think we have discussed all this before and are retreading old ground. But the difference between Sansa and the rest of the siblings were in the manner they treated him. The rest of his siblings loved him, interacted with him often, played with him and treated him like one of their own - even when they understood he was a bastard by convention. Sansa, on the other kept him at a distance and treated him like a bastard half-brother and Jon understands this difference. Sansa looks down on him as less than and is bigoted in how she sees Jon as a person:

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“What did you think of Prince Joff, sister? He’s very gallant, don’t you think?”

“Jon says he looks like a girl,” Arya said.

Sansa sighed as she stitched. “Poor Jon,” she said. “He gets jealous because he’s a bastard.”

“He’s our brother,” Arya said, much too loudly. Her voice cut through the afternoon quiet of the tower room.

It's more or less what we saw on the show last season - with Sansa constantly complaining about Jon and thinking that she should be the one ruling as opposed to the bastard and Arya sticking up for her brother.

In the two sibling POVs we get from Bran and Arya, they point to Jon as being very observant and mature for his age. We first see Jon through Bran's POV:

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Jon’s eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black, but there was little they did not see.

And then in Arya's:

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Jon looked down on the scene with a frown. “Joffrey is truly a little shit,” he told Arya.

But as per Sansa, Jon is only being jealous of Joff because he's a bastard. And that's the difference for Jon. The rest of his siblings see him as a person and a brother. Sansa only ever sees him as a bastard.

Some of the last thoughts of Robb and Sansa regarding Jon in the books:

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"Mother." There was a sharpness in Robb's tone. "You forget. My father had four sons."

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"Jon Snow?" she blurted out, surprised. "Snow? Yes, it would be Snow, I suppose." She had not thought of Jon in ages. He was only her half brother, but still . . . with Robb and Bran and Rickon dead, Jon Snow was the only brother that remained to her.

And yes, Jon is indifferent towards Sansa and does not care about where she is, what she is up to , her forced marriage to Tyrion, whether she was alive or dead. On the other hand, he dearly loved Robb and his resentment is because he is hurt when Robb occasionally throws his bastardy in his face. 

5 hours ago, Eyes High said:

"Deeply empathetic" people don't use nasty, hurtful nicknames, because they know that shit hurts. Sansa doesn't have that problem, of course.

Sansa's thoughts on Arya and Jon are anything but empathetic. GRRM seems to have written her as the spoiled, mean popular girl:

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Why couldn’t Arya be sweet and delicate and kind, like Princess Myrcella? She would have liked a sister like that.

It would have been easier if Arya had been a bastard, like their half brother Jon. She even looked like Jon, with the long face and brown hair of the Starks, and nothing of their lady mother in her face or her coloring. And Jon’s mother had been common, or so people whispered.

Sansa had once dreamt of having a sister like Margaery; beautiful and gentle, with all the world’s graces at her command. Arya had been entirely unsatisfactory as sisters went.

Talk like that will get you killed, or worse. That lesson he had learned as Reek. “You are the real Arya, my lady. Arya of House Stark, Lord Eddard’s daughter, heir to Winterfell.” Her name, she had to know her name. “Arya Underfoot. Your sister used to call you Arya Horseface.”

Sansa knew all about the sorts of people Arya liked to talk to: squires and grooms and serving girls, old men and naked children, rough-spoken freeriders of uncertain birth. Arya would make friends with anybody. This Mycah was the worst; a butcher’s boy, thirteen and wild, he slept in the meat wagon and smelled of the slaughtering block. Just the sight of him was enough to make Sansa feel sick, but Arya seemed to prefer his company to hers. 

It's clear that Sansa was vain, snobby, classist, naive and selfish. That's why GRRM is writing her a story where she understands enough to look beyond appearances and see beneath the outer appearance of the person. Something that Jon and Arya knew at the start of book one and that Sansa is still trying to learn.

Edited February 2, 2019 by anamika

[SeanC]

43 minutes ago, anamika said:

This is funny, because Sansa was right there when Cersei hands Jeyne over to LF. All Sansa needs to do to find out what happened to Jeyne is ask the man she is plotting with in the Vale about what happened to Jeyne.

It isn't clear at this point whether Sansa remembers exactly what happened there (she doesn't have these key scenes in her life written down to revisit at leisure), or if she's repressing it, or whatever.  I expect what Littlefinger did to Jeyne will resurface in Sansa's story at some point, much as with his other misdeeds.

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She can empathize with the Hound but not the child he brutally cut into half while he was fleeing? That is supposed to show her as more empathetic?

I mean...yes?  GRRM was interested in writing about her showing empathy for the Hound, because the Hound is an important supporting character in her story and evidently an interesting narrative vehicle for the concept, as he sees it.  Mycah evidently wasn't, as far as the author was concerned, at least not yet.  The theme of showing concern for peasants has been addressed in her story in other ways.

Perhaps there'll be more done with this at some later date, such as when she and Arya see each other again, but who knows.

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As mentioned above, Sansa has moments of kindness but she is still very much classist and does not give a damn about the poor butcher's boy who was the real victim in all that.

She does mention that "Joffrey lied about the butcher's boy" in her discussion to the Tyrells about his evil ways in the third book.  

[anamika]

16 minutes ago, SeanC said:

It isn't clear at this point whether Sansa remembers exactly what happened there (she doesn't have these key scenes in her life written down to revisit at leisure), or if she's repressing it, or whatever.  I expect what Littlefinger did to Jeyne will resurface in Sansa's story at some point, much as with his other misdeeds.

Sansa conveniently does not remember facts that are inconvenient for her. Like Jeyne or her aunt Lysa's confession about writing the letter to Cat for LF.

18 minutes ago, SeanC said:

I mean...yes?  GRRM was interested in writing about her showing empathy for the Hound, because the Hound is an important supporting character in her story and evidently an interesting narrative vehicle for the concept, as he sees it.  Mycah evidently wasn't, as far as the author was concerned, at least not yet.  The theme of showing concern for peasants has been addressed in her story in other ways.

Then maybe don't use the Hound to point out Sansa's empathy because GRRM is interested in SanSan for the BATB romance and not to tell us how  Sansa is now a deeply empathetic person considering how totally unconcerned she was for the child cut in half by the Hound.

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Arya screwed up her face in a scowl. “Jaime Lannister murdered Jory and Heward and Wyl, and the Hound murdered Mycah. Somebody should have beheaded them.”

“It’s not the same,” Sansa said. “The Hound is Joffrey’s sworn shield. Your butcher’s boy attacked the prince.”

“Liar,” Arya said. Her hand clenched the blood orange so hard that red juice oozed between her fingers.

“Go ahead, call me all the names you want,” Sansa said airily. “You won’t dare when I’m married to Joffrey. You’ll have to bow to me and call me Your Grace.”

Are you saying that GRRM is making us think that Sansa is being empathetic here by defending the Hound versus the butcher's boy and lying about what happened because Mycah is just a side character in her plot?

23 minutes ago, SeanC said:

She does mention that "Joffrey lied about the butcher's boy" in her discussion to the Tyrells about his evil ways in the third book.  

Oh, wow, so much empathy there. He is forever only the 'butcher's boy' for Sansa. Not a person, not Arya's friend.

3 hours ago, SeanC said:

In the context of the above discussion, I'd say it's especially significant in that Sansa is capable of empathizing to a fair degree even with people who are not on her side, or who have wronged her.  She risks her life repeatedly to help others, whether peasants or people like Margaery Tyrell (and the Tyrells certainly don't return the kindness and loyalty she extends them).

I must have missed it, but can you point to where Sansa repeatedly risks her life to help peasants? Of course she is nice to Margaery because Marg is beautiful and charming and as repeatedly seen Sansa values appearance over inner qualities. That's why she once again gets used and duped by the Tyrells in book 3

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Why couldn’t Arya be sweet and delicate and kind, like Princess Myrcella? She would have liked a sister like that. - Sansa, AGoT

Sansa had once dreamt of having a sister like Margaery; beautiful and gentle, with all the world’s graces at her command. Arya had been entirely unsatisfactory as sisters went. - Sansa, ASoS

But it was Arya who loved Sansa and who would have stood by her when push came to shove. Not Myrcella and Margaery.

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“Arya had not known her brother was so near. Riverrun was much closer than Winterfell, though she was not certain where it lay in relation to Harrenhal. I could find out somehow, I know I could, if only I could get away. When she thought of seeing Robb’s face again Arya had to bite her lip. And I want to see Jon too, and Bran and Rickon, and Mother. Even Sansa … I’ll kiss her and beg her pardons like a proper lady, she’ll like that.” - Arya VII, ACoK 

“Arya sipped at her tankard cautiously, between spoonfuls of pie still warm from the oven. Her father sometimes let them have a cup of beer, she remembered. Sansa used to make a face at the taste and say that wine was ever so much finer, but Arya had liked it well enough. It made her sad to think of Sansa and her father.” - Arya II, ACoK 

“So the singer played for her, so soft and sad that Arya only heard snatches of the words, though the tune was half-familiar. Sansa would know it, I bet. Her sister had known all the songs, and she could even play a little, and sing so sweetly. All I could ever do was shout the words.” - Arya IV, ASoS

[Smad]

3 hours ago, Eyes High said:

And yet Jon specifically remembers that Sansa had only ever called him her half-brother the minute she understood what "bastard" meant, and we see this in Arya's very first chapter in AGOT. Arya is the one who gets angry when Sansa dismissively refers to Jon as a bastard as a way of writing off his opinion of Joffrey, and when Arya hotly defends Jon by saying that he's their brother, Sansa snidely corrects her by saying "half-brother."

Not to be anal but Jon IS her half-brother. What's wrong with the truth? And since you yourself said, she referred to him as half brother, not bastard. Using the correct term instead of the insulting one, good on Sansa I'd say. And quite frankly, you should blame her parents instead of Sansa. You should blame the Westrosi system for it. It's a patriarchy, it's feudalism/monarchy and all about titles and ranks and succession. Sansa was raised in that and for that, these things she didn't come up with herself. If she thinks like that it's because she was raised to do so.

4 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Yes. D&D obviously agreed, since they gave an equivalent action to Sansa's to what was then the show's main villain (Joffrey) with much the same effect. That should tell you something, as I said.

Oh I'm well aware of D&D's failure to GET IT. They take everything at face value, that's how incapable they are. But what else should I expect from people who write like frat boys about bad pussies and cocks and dicks.

4 hours ago, Eyes High said:

You have no compassion for Arya being bullied by Sansa, the effect Sansa's actions had on Jon, etc.

What affect did Sansa's actions have on Jon? At the wall? Can't be the bastard things as you yourself stated that she referred to him as half-brother to his face. As for Arya, leaving the books aside (where POV trap is real), she wasn't much better than Sansa. She threw food on her sister, she was a b*tch to Bran (at least in tone), she physically attacked her sister, we know she used to sow sh*t in Sansa's mattress, she basically thinks her sister is stupid (seven hells) for having the highest ambition a woman can have in this system and lets her know it. But then her whole family thought she was stupid that way (even Cat rolled her eyes to that in the show). They freaking groomed her to be that person and then they demeaned her for it. And betrothed her to a psycho. Lovely Stark family.

4 hours ago, Eyes High said:

She cries buckets over Lady, but ignores Arya's grief over Mycah.

Oh please. She cried over her pet, whom she knows, more than someone she doesn't. As if you wouldn't. If your dog or cat died and your sibling's friend whom you don't know dies the same day, I'm sure you'd be more upset over your cat/dog, especially as a child.

4 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Who's excusing the other characters? You claimed that Book Sansa is "deeply empathetic" when in fact it is obvious that she has shown very little empathy in the books. If we have no business assessing Sansa's character because she is a "freaking child," then you have no business characterizing her character as "deeply empathetic," either. You want to label Sansa as "deeply empathetic" but then when that claim is evaluated, you complain about how we have no business judging her and desperately seek to gloss over her behaviour with a bizarre argument that "All of us have done some pretty crappy stuff as children." That seems a little self-serving as far as arguments go, in my opinion

As others have already pointed out how false your perspective is, or just different due to character hate, I don't feel the need to get further into it. Just going to let SeanC's and screaming's points speak for themselves.

And since when is drawing on common knowledge a 'bizzare argument'? Are you telling me you were a picture perfect child? That most children are? Because I'm pretty sure that those people honest with themselves will tell you there is something they have done when they were young that they wish they could take back, had never done or that once older they cringe about. That's not bizzare, that's life.

4 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I'd say that people who are disappointed at how bitchy, nasty and self-centered TV Sansa is never really understood Book Sansa's character to begin with.

I'd say that people who have so much hate for children (even fictional), have some problems themselves. Like attacking the real life actor who portrays them (poor 'Olly'). Or wanting children to be picture perfect. Or abide by our modern rules. Instead of conforming to the system they live in, despite the fact that it was their parents who raised them to be like that. It's always the child's fault, especially if there is another child that's favored by the people.

[SeanC]

34 minutes ago, anamika said:

Sansa conveniently does not remember facts that are inconvenient for her. Like Jeyne or her aunt Lysa's confession about writing the letter to Cat for LF.

She remembers what Lysa said, Littlefinger just talks her out of it (which, considering she's trapped with him, her memory's habit of trying to elide troubling details goes along with that).  I'm not sure whether we're supposed to think that's the case with Jeyne or not, because approximately a year and a half passes between Jeyne's disappearance and Sansa ending up in Littlefinger's clutches, and there's no indication in the mentions of Jeyne in the interim that Sansa recalls Littlefinger taking her, just that she doesn't know where she is (and probably, in my interpretation, assumes she's dead).

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Then maybe don't use the Hound to point out Sansa's empathy because GRRM is interested in SanSan for the BATB romance and not to tell us how  Sansa is now a deeply empathetic person considering how totally unconcerned she was for the child cut in half by the Hound.

Pretty much by definition, a BATB relationship requires deep empathy for people who would not traditionally receive it, so that's a very strange counterargument.  Sansa's empathy for the Hound is very much a crucial part of that sequence and that story.

Quote

Are you saying that GRRM is making us think that Sansa is being empathetic here by defending the Hound versus the butcher's boy and lying about what happened because Mycah is just a side character in her plot?

Er, no.  That's Sansa in denial, which is the big theme of her arc in the first book up until the moment of revelation.  At which point she realizes that Joffrey and Cersei are evil.  This is a character arc.

Quote

Oh, wow, so much empathy there. He is forever only the 'butcher's boy' for Sansa. Not a person, not Arya's friend.

I cited that merely as a reminder that she does recall the situation was unjust.  But again, Mycah isn't an important part of her story, so I'm not sure why it's notable that GRRM doesn't have her fixate on that afterward.  Mycah's memory does hang over the Arya/Hound chapters in the same book, for the very obvious reason that the Hound killed Mycah.  Mycah may come up in whatever future reconciliation scenes between the sisters we get, because that would be relevant.

Quote

I must have missed it, but can you point to where Sansa repeatedly risks her life to help peasants?

Dontos isn't a peasant (technically), but in addition to saving him, she does a similar action later in the same book (often missed because it's related through Tyrion's POV rather than Sansa's, so we don't even know precisely what she said, but that's the author showing her smoothly guide Joffrey away from violence).  From the riot chapter:

Halfway along the route, a wailing woman forced her way between two watchmen and ran out into the street in front of the king and his companions, holding the corpse of her dead baby above her head.  It was blue and swollen, grotesque, but the real horror was the mother's eyes.  Joffrey looked for a moment as if he meant to ride her down, but Sansa Stark leaned over and said something to him.  The king fumbled in his pursue, and flung the woman a silver stag.

Sansa seldom finds herself in a position of being able to help anyone, but she tries where she can. 

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Of course she is nice to Margaery because Marg is beautiful and charming and as repeatedly seen Sansa values appearance over inner qualities. That's why she once again gets used and duped by the Tyrells in book 3

Sansa was suspicious of Margaery, who won her over by being nice to her and offering her help at a time when she desperately needed it.  And she's not merely "nice" to Margaery, she's brave on her behalf, repeatedly.  And Margaery certainly takes full advantage of her lifelong training of embodying the sort of ideal Sansa was raised to believe in, and really could use at that point.

Edited February 2, 2019 by SeanC

[anamika]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

She remembers what Lysa said, Littlefinger just talks her out of it (which, considering she's trapped with him, her memory's habit of trying to elide troubling details goes along with that).  I'm not sure whether we're supposed to think that's the case with Jeyne or not, because approximately a year and a half passes between Jeyne's disappearance and Sansa ending up in Littlefinger's clutches, and there's no indication in the mentions of Jeyne in the interim that Sansa recalls Littlefinger taking her, just that she doesn't know where she is (and probably, in my interpretation, assumes she's dead).

So she is actively colluding with the man who she knows betrayed her family and never once introspects on this in her POV chapters in the Vale? Amazing. Sansa knows a lot of things but the lack of introspection and reflection on these things makes her a very uninspiring POV to read in the books. She just narrates what is happening without digging too deep into what these things mean.

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

Pretty much by definition, a BATB relationship requires deep empathy for people who would not traditionally receive it, so that's a very strange counterargument.  Sansa's empathy for the Hound is very much a crucial part of that sequence and that story.

The BATB involves Beauty's love for a Beast who does bad things and which love makes the Beast a better man. Sansa is kind towards a man who murders a child who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and shows not an ounce of care or empathy for that child. Not even bothering to call him by name. You may describe this as Sansa having 'deep empathy'. I don't. She comes off as extremely callous. Sansa's kindness towards the Hound is a crucial part of her BATB romance story with the Hound. It's not there to showcase how she is now a very nice person. If that was GRRM's intention, he would have at least bothered to write in a few lines about Sansa regretting the way she handled the whole Arya-Mycah incident, how she was wrong to blame Arya for it, how Arya's poor friend Mycah was unfairly killed. GRRM is not interested in all that. He is interested in exploring Sansa and the Hound falling in love with each other.

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

Er, no.  That's Sansa in denial, which is the big theme of her arc in the first book up until the moment of revelation.  At which point she realizes that Joffrey and Cersei are evil.  This is a character arc.

Er, but you just said above that Sansa was a very empathetic person in the first book and Mycah was not important to her plot and that it was all about the Hound? Now she is just in denial for her character arc?

Sansa is always in denial. For 5 books she is in denial. She is in denial about Joffrey and Cersei, she is in denial about the Tyrells, she is in denial about what LF is doing to her little cousin in the Vale despite LF clearly outlining his plot for her.

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

I cited that merely as a reminder that she does recall the situation was unjust.  But again, Mycah isn't an important part of her story, so I'm not sure why it's notable that GRRM doesn't have her fixate on that afterward.  Mycah's memory does hang over the Arya/Hound chapters in the same book, for the very obvious reason that the Hound killed Mycah.  Mycah may come up in whatever future reconciliation scenes between the sisters we get, because that would be relevant.

Mycah is not an important part of her story but you just said above that it was about denial for her character arc and growth. So which is it?

If it is about character growth, then GRRM could have simply replaced 'butcher's boy' in that line Sansa says and replace it with, 'butcher's boy, Mycah'. She knows the name. She has heard it enough times from Arya. But she's not bothered enough to say it, because to her Mycah is just the 'butcher's boy', not Arya's friend Mycah. That's why we never see her introspect on the way she treated Arya with respect to this.

 Sansa still has a long way to go if she has to change. But as mentioned above, as per the show, it maybe that Sansa will fundamentally remain the same. Not some paragon of empathy, kindness and compassion as her fans tend to see her.

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

Dontos isn't a peasant (technically), but in addition to saving him, she does a similar action later in the same book (often missed because it's related through Tyrion's POV rather than Sansa's, so we don't even know precisely what she said, but that's the author showing her smoothly guide Joffrey away from violence).  From the riot chapter:

Halfway along the route, a wailing woman forced her way between two watchmen and ran out into the street in front of the king and his companions, holding the corpse of her dead baby above her head.  It was blue and swollen, grotesque, but the real horror was the mother's eyes.  Joffrey looked for a moment as if he meant to ride her down, but Sansa Stark leaned over and said something to him.  The king fumbled in his pursue, and flung the woman a silver stag.

Dontos was a knight.

And where did Sansa risk her life for that woman? She just suggested that Joff give the lady some cash.

And these two instances are Sansa repeatedly risking her life for peasants?

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

Sansa seldom finds herself in a position of being able to help anyone, but she tries where she can. 

Then maybe don't say that Sansa repeatedly risked her life to help peasants? Yes, Sansa does not have a lot of agency and is limited in what she can do. We will have to see in the future how she helps the small folk once she has the power to do so.

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

Sansa was suspicious of Margaery, who won her over by being nice to her and offering her help at a time when she desperately needed it.  And she's not merely "nice" to Margaery, she's brave on her behalf, repeatedly.  And Margaery certainly takes full advantage of her lifelong training of embodying the sort of ideal Sansa was raised to believe in, and really could use at that point.

So you are saying that Margaery being beautiful and lady like had nothing to with Sansa's views and friendship with Margaery?

Edited February 2, 2019 by anamika

[screamin]

2 hours ago, anamika said:

Of course she is nice to Margaery because Marg is beautiful and charming and as repeatedly seen Sansa values appearance over inner qualities

Because Dontos was so comely and charming? He was an unattractive drunken sot from a disgraced house who was such a pathetic mess he came to Joffrey's tournament soused with no pants on. She still pitied him and risked her own life to intervene with Joffrey when the prudent course would have been to keep her mouth shut and let Joffrey kill him.

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I think we have discussed all this before and are retreading old ground. But the difference between Sansa and the rest of the siblings were in the manner they treated him. The rest of his siblings loved him, interacted with him often, played with him and treated him like one of their own - even when they understood he was a bastard by convention. Sansa, on the other kept him at a distance and treated him like a bastard half-brother and Jon understands this difference. Sansa looks down on him as less than and is bigoted in how she sees Jon as a person:

Yes indeed we have discussed this, and more than once. But if you're going to state as fact that Sansa treated Jon markedly worse than his other siblings did and "Jon understands this difference," then I really think you should provide proof of Jon remembering Sansa mistreating him so at least once. I've already pointed out that Jon remembers Robb once throwing it in Jon's face that he's a bastard and thus "less than," in your own words. Jon resented this so much he's even dreaming a Freudian wish-fulfilment nightmare of killing Robb in revenge for it years later. He remembers no such insult from Sansa, and exhibits no such resentment for her. Do you then concede that Robb must be a sociopathic beast as well - even worse than Sansa is? Or maybe instead you agree with my point above that Kids Are Sometimes Little Shits, but can grow out of it? It's only a conversation if you actually respond to things I'm saying. I'll even concede that Sansa had some worse moments of being a little shit than the others at the beginning of the tale - but like children generally do, she's grown out of them, IMO. 

However, it is funny that you apportion this:

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Sansa sighed as she stitched. “Poor Jon,” she said. “He gets jealous because he’s a bastard.”

...as proof of Sansa's utter lack of empathy. Part of empathy is the understanding of another's feelings. And as we saw from our glimpses into Jon's POV - Sansa is abso-fucking-lutely right. Jon is seething at his low rung on the family totem pole as a bastard, which has been underlined by the king's visit; Catalyn has mandated he be pushed into the background because of it. He's miserable and furious - but IIRC, it's not because of any slight Sansa's paid him. Sansa understands Jon's feelings - one component of empathy. She even sympathizes with them ("poor Jon") which is the OTHER half of the definition of empathy. Granted, her sympathy is only pity, which is merely the small change of compassion, and therefore less than is a brother's due. So yes, in the midst of empathy she's having a Being A Bit of A Little Shit moment at the same time. But see Robb, who loves Jon and yet threw that insult in his face for no real provocation...it's only the beginning of Book 1 - she'll change.

Later in the same book we see the same empathy for Jon, when she sees how ragged and poor-looking the man of the Night's Watch is, and she thinks how sorry she is for Jon to have joined such miserable ranks. Again, she shows understanding for Jon's feelings - his first reactions to the NW are pretty similar to hers. Again, she shows sympathy in the form of pity for Jon - and I may add that Jon shared this pity for himself to the fullest when he started out in the NW - which highlights HIS own snobbishness and moment of Being A Little Shit that he has to grow out of (and does). I'd say Sansa concentrating on the positive side of being a bastard ('bastard brave') while pretending to be one herself and befriending the servants as their equal shows her snobbishness has been broken down.

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Dontos was a knight.

And where did Sansa risk her life for that woman? She just suggested that Joff give the lady some cash.

And these two instances are Sansa repeatedly risking her life for peasants?

 

Okay, so it doesn't count as empathy unless she risks her life for it? That's not what the dictionary says. Contradicting Joffrey can get her punished, but she did it anyway. She did it  for that anonymous woman. in the crowd. She did it for Dontos, when it's clear she IS risking her life for it. She did it for Margaery. Disqualifying those acts of empathy as not counting because she only did it ONCE for a smallfolk woman, and Dontos is a knight (a pathetic drunken knight of a disgraced house) so empathy for HIM doesn't count, and Margaery is a noble AND pretty so risking your life to help her is no virtue, and staunching the bleeding from Lancel's severe wound doesn't count as empathy because, I guess, he's a nobleman AND pretty (though he couldn't have been THAT pretty gushing blood and screaming doom all over the floor).

And Littlefinger using Sansa's own empathy to keep her pretending to be his dutiful daughter lest he kill some innocent (noble or servant is not specified) who she might  accidentally reveal their secrets to, and blame the guilt of their murder on her doesn't count as empathy either, according to you. In fact, you think we should count her terrified acquiescence in Stockholm syndrome with LF's threats to other people as another point against her. You think that she should remember Lysa's babbling with stenographic clarity - at a moment when Lysa had hold of her hair and was trying to push her out the Moon Door. You expect her to remember it all as clearly as we do, who have the books to consult, and to deduce that the 'tears' Lysa was babbling about were the Tears of Lys - a poison she has never been told about. You also expect her to know that the letter LF told her to write to Cat constituted a betrayal of the entire family - even though she knows nothing about that letter or what it precipitated (her father coming to KL to begin with). You expect her to have accomplished all these miraculous feats of deduction just so you can accuse her of colluding with LF while KNOWING he betrayed her entire family. I told Eyes High that ignoring a person's good deeds in order to condemn her for her worst THOUGHTS  was an impossible standard that no human being could live up to. But it seems you've gone him one better - you're condemning Sansa for thoughts you can't even prove she's ever HAD.

Or can you show anywhere in the books that Sansa knows LF betrayed her father and her family?

Edited February 2, 2019 by screamin

[anamika]

6 hours ago, screamin said:

Because Dontos was so comely and charming? He was an unattractive drunken sot from a disgraced house who was such a pathetic mess he came to Joffrey's tournament soused with no pants on. She still pitied him and risked her own life to intervene with Joffrey when the prudent course would have been to keep her mouth shut and let Joffrey kill him.

Once again, Dontos was a knight. Not a peasant, not a lowly butcher's boy whose very sight made Sansa sick, but a knight. A disgraced knight for sure, but still a knight. And Dontos was also not a lady.

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Sansa heard herself gasp. “No, you can’t.”

Joffrey turned his head. “What did you say?”

Sansa could not believe she had spoken. Was she mad? To tell him no in front of half the court? She hadn’t meant to say anything, only… Ser Dontos was drunk and silly and useless, but he meant no harm.

“Did you say I can’t? Did you?” “

Please,” Sansa said, “I only meant… it would be ill luck, Your Grace… to, to kill a man on your name day.”

“You’re lying,” Joffrey said. “I ought to drown you with him, if you care for him so much.” “I don’t care for him, Your Grace.”

The words tumbled out desperately. “Drown him or have his head off, only… kill him on the morrow, if you like, but please… not today, not on your name day. I couldn’t bear for you to have ill luck… terrible luck, even for kings, the singers all say so…”

Joffrey scowled. He knew she was lying, she could see it. He would make her bleed for this.

“The girl speaks truly,” the Hound rasped. “What a man sows on his name day, he reaps throughout the year.”

One, Sansa instinctively speaks and thinks she is going to get beaten for it, not killed. And two, the Hound once again steps in to deflect Joffrey's attention from Sansa and helps her.

And as pointed out above, does Sansa have moments of kindness? Yes. As does every single character in the books, except for Joffrey, Ramsay and the Mountain.

6 hours ago, screamin said:

But if you're going to state as fact that Sansa treated Jon markedly worse than his other siblings did and "Jon understands this difference," then I really think you should provide proof of Jon remembering Sansa mistreating him so at least once.

Wait, are you seriously saying that there was no great difference in how Sansa treated Jon compared to the rest of his siblings?

Jon does not spend his time bemoaning Sansa mistreating him, because he DOES NOT CARE all that much about her. He had the love of 4 other siblings and he loves them back. That's my point. He's indifferent towards Sansa who comes a distant last to the rest of his siblings. And I have already used text quotes for all this in our last discussion which you chose to ignore. Let me go back and fetch them from the endgame thread:

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He remembered the day he had left Winterfell, all the bittersweet farewells; Bran lying broken, Robb with snow in his hair, Arya raining kisses on him after he’d given her Needle.

Even the thought made him feel foolish; he was a man grown now, a black brother of the Night’s Watch, not the boy who’d once sat at Old Nan’s feet with Bran and Robb and Arya.

That might mean Lord Eddard would return to Winterfell, and his sisters as well. He might even be allowed to visit them, with Lord Mormont’s permission. It would be good to see Arya’s grin again and to talk with his father.

Jon Snow straightened himself and took a long deep breath. Forgive me, Father. Robb, Arya, Bran . . . forgive me, I cannot help you. He has the truth of it. This is my place.

Playing, Jon thought in astonishment, grown men playing like children, throwing snowballs the way Bran and Arya once did, and Robb and me before them

Notice who is missing from all his deeply personal thoughts about the family he loves and misses?

Stannis tells him about Sansa's marriage to Tyrion and Jon goes out and wonders about how his old pal Tyrion is doing with his kinslayer status. He cares more for Tyrion than he does for Sansa!

The rare thoughts he has of Sansa is superficial - he can think of no close emotional moments between them because there are none. Yeah, Sansa would have loved the wall because she is into fairy tales, a memory of Sansa with lady, Sansa instructing him once on how to properly talk to ladies. That's about it, for the entirety of their childhood in WF.

He even misses little Rickon more than he misses Sansa. No wonder because even Rickon is more affectionate, trying to go to Jon during the feast.

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He missed his true brothers: little Rickon, bright eyes shining as he begged for a sweet; Robb, his rival and best friend and constant companion; Bran, stubborn and curious, always wanting to follow and join in whatever Jon and Robb were doing. He missed the girls too, even Sansa, who never called him anything but "my half brother: since she was old enough to understand what bastard meant. And Arya... he missed her even more than Robb, skinny little thing that she was, all scraped knees and tangled hair and torn clothes, so fierce and willful. Arya never seemed to fit, no more than he had… yet she could always make Jon smile. He would give anything to be with her now, to muss up her hair once more and watch her make a face, to hear her finish a sentence with him.

You want examples of Jon's feelings about Sansa? Look at his descriptions of all his siblings above:

Rickon: bright eyes shining as he begged for a sweet

Robb: his rival and best friend and constant companion

Bran: Stubborn and curious, always wanting to follow and join in whatever Jon and Robb were doing.

Arya: skinny little thing that she was, all scraped knees and tangled hair and torn clothes, so fierce and willful. Always make him smile

Oh yeah and there's Sansa: called him only half-brother ever since she realized he was a bastard - that's his fondest memory of her.

It's also clear that Jon's love for girls like Arya and disdain for girls like Sansa is from the very different way these two siblings treated him - "A warrior princess, he decided, not some willowy creature who sits up in a tower, brushing her hair and waiting for some knight to rescue her."

6 hours ago, screamin said:

Part of empathy is the understanding of another's feelings. And as we saw from our glimpses into Jon's POV - Sansa is abso-fucking-lutely right. Jon is seething at his low rung on the family totem pole as a bastard, which has been underlined by the king's visit;

How is Sansa abso-lutely-fuking right here? Jon is indeed bitter that he is an outcast among his family and made to sit separately. Are you saying that Jon was jealous of the crown prince because he was a bastard?

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Sansa, two years older, drew the crown prince, Joffrey Baratheon. He was twelve, younger than Jon or Robb, but taller than either, to Jon’s vast dismay. Prince Joffrey had his sister’s hair and his mother’s deep green eyes. A thick tangle of blond curls dripped down past his golden choker and high velvet collar. Sansa looked radiant as she walked beside him, but Jon did not like Joffrey’s pouty lips or the bored, disdainful way he looked at Winterfell’s Great Hall.

Jon is dismayed that Joff is taller than both Robb and Jon himself - it's a boy thing, a Stark thing - nothing to do with his bastardy. Jon dislikes that Joffrey thinks too highly of himself and is disdainful of Winterfell.  Again, nothing to do with his bastardy. Point to one instance in the books where Jon is jealous of Joffrey's appearance because he is the crown prince and Jon is a bastard.

Jon is angry on behalf of Robb when Joffrey acts all high and mighty on the field:

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“Robb may be a child,” Joffrey said. “I am a prince. And I grow tired of swatting at Starks with a play sword.”

“You got more swats than you gave, Joff,” Robb said. “Are you afraid?”

Prince Joffrey looked at him. “Oh, terrified,” he said. “You’re so much older.” Some of the Lannister men laughed.'

Jon looked down on the scene with a frown. “Joffrey is truly a little shit,” he told Arya.

But for Sansa, it is automatically because Jon is a bastard. It's not a surprise considering she buys into her mother's views on bastards and bastards are born of lust and have a black heart and wanton nature.

And I am sorry, but I just find it abso-fucking-lutely hilarious that Sansa is supposedly an empathetic good judge of character considering she saw Joffrey sadistically maul an innocent child and try to hurt her sister and still considered him to be her sweet good prince. Only realizing that the Lannisters were the bad guys when they turned their abuse on her and executed her father.

6 hours ago, screamin said:

Okay, so it doesn't count as empathy unless she risks her life for it?

Maybe debate the point in the context to which it was applied?  SeanC stated that Sansa repeatedly risked her life to help peasants. I was asking him for those instances because I seemed to have missed them in the book.

6 hours ago, screamin said:

And Littlefinger using Sansa's own empathy to keep her pretending to be his dutiful daughter lest he kill some innocent (noble or servant is not specified) who she might  accidentally reveal their secrets to, and blame the guilt of their murder on her doesn't count as empathy either, according to you.

What? Why is LF going to go kill someone if Sansa does not pretend to be his daughter? I am confused...

6 hours ago, screamin said:

You expect her to remember it all as clearly as we do, who have the books to consult, and to deduce that the 'tears' Lysa was babbling about were the Tears of Lys - a poison she has never been told about.

Well, she is supposedly this master player now, 5 books in and is supposed to start playing the game and all that. Sansa fans should make up their minds about what they want book Sansa to be - either she is a scared, traumatized little child who cannot process any information, cannot introspect on information, does not remember anything at all about Lysa or Jeyne, does not know what is happening to SR despite LF explaining his plan to her etc. or she remembers but is playing the game, is trying to save SR from LF, is plotting against LF, is learning LF's little ways etc. You cannot have it both ways. And kindness and compassion is not conducive to playing the game.

Edited February 2, 2019 by anamika