Jaime Lannister: The Kingslayer

[bluvelvet]

So Jaime and Cersei are an item again, I absolutely did not see that coming, I thought they were kaput.

 

Loved the goodbye between Jaime and Tyrion, very heartfelt.

[Greta]

Cersei knew of them because Jaime did, and he tells her everything.

 

 

I don't think Cersei knows anything about the wildfire. If she did, as someone noted above, she would have used it during the buildup to the Blackwater.  And the larger point, that Jaime tells Cersei everything? I haven't seen any evidence of that at all. A big part of what made the bathtub scene with Brienne so great was the sense that Jaime was unloading something he hadn't ever shared with anyone ever.  Even before that, when Jaime talked with Ned about the Stark burnings and Jory about the Greyjoy Rebellion, the conversations felt fresh, like Jaime wasn't used to actually articulating thoughts about his experiences.

 

What's interesting is that, given that they're so close or think of each other as so close, is that he's never apparently confided in Tyrion.

 

 

[bluvelvet]

I agree Greta, I don't think Jaime told anyone that story until Brienne..which is surprising considering how close he and Cersei obviously were.

[SoWindsor]

I agree Greta, I don't think Jaime told anyone that story until Brienne..which is surprising considering how close he and Cersei obviously were.

Refresh my memory. What story did Jaime tell Brienne?

[ShadowHunter]

I also think Brienne might be the only person Jaime told the story about the Mad King to and what really happened.

 

 I feel Jaime/Cersei will not last he betrayed Cersei big time when he let Tryrion go and she will be mad if she finds out.  Plus I found the scene with them to be manipulation on her part, he was annoyed with her the second she came in the room and she knew that. One of the reasons she told Tywin about the relationship was a threat so she wouldn’t have to marry Loras not as this I choose you stuff she told him.  She still cheated on him with Lancel and when he finds out that will not go well. I am sure Cersei may try and take more power and control now that Tywin is gone which could also lead to more trouble. The seeds of problems between them were planted this season and next they will start to grow.

 

All the stuff between Jaime and Tyrion this season was beautiful. The hug goodbye and the deal he made for him which went South was great brotherly love.

[BlackberryJam]

In the tubs at Harrenhal, Jaime told Brienne about the killing of Aerys Targaryen.  How he'd planned to burn King's Landing and then ordered Jaime to kill Tywin.  It's what got him named Kingslayer.  Ned Stark found Jaime sitting on the Iron Throne with Aerys dead at his feet. 

[bluvelvet]

Cersei will not be happy when she finds out what Jaime did. I wonder if he will tell her ?

Also loved the kiss Jaime gave Tyrion.

[BlackberryJam]

It looks like a major set up for Cersei and Jaime fall out next season.  Cersei just got everything she wanted and she's going to have it ripped away the very next morning.

[Constantinople]

So Jaime and Cersei are an item again, I absolutely did not see that coming, I thought they were kaput.

I was disappointed with Jaime. Try to exercise a little self-discipline.

Edited June 16, 2014 by Constantinople

[BlackberryJam]

I was disappointed with Jaime. Try to exercise a little self-discipline.

Guy went a full year with no play and then only got some next to the corpse of his dead son.  So when sister comes waving her coochie at him and promising him the world, of course little Jaime is coming out to play.

[VCRTracking]

Now that I know they cut out Jaime confessing to Tyrion

his first wife wasn't really a whore and that he's been lying to him this whole time(which I totally get btw, like out of all the times to tell him...)

I think I get the reason for the rape scene. Without it and just watching him this entire season you'd think Jaime Lannister's the best guy in the world!

[bluvelvet]

I don't think Jaime and Cersei will be having a lot of sexytimes in the future.

I did think he would resist a bit more but he is a man who is inlove with his sister. I wonder if he wasn't in love with Cersei would he have still broken his celibacy vow with another woman.

[Colored Francie]

I don't think Jaime and Cersei will be having a lot of sexytimes in the future.

I did think he would resist a bit more but he is a man who is inlove with his sister. I wonder if he wasn't in love with Cersei would he have still broken his celibacy vow with another woman.

That's part of the reason I think he took advantage when she came in. I suspect he was already thinking about breaking Tyrion out (what would the rest of his page be...); which would probably mean losing Cersei forever (though I think she could eventually forgive him). Of course, her declaration probably fired him up, as well. I think he knew it would be the last time.

[BlackberryJam]

Oh, just like Cersei, I think Jaime thinks he can have it all.  I doubt Jaime has even thought through the repercussions of freeing Tyrion, at least not those related to Cersei.  Jaime has no idea Cersei is building the Mountainstein.  He doesn't know about Lancel.  I don't think he even knows she was ready to kill Tommen.

[ShadowHunter]

Being a Jaime fan is never easy lol.

[bluvelvet]

Oh, just like Cersei, I think Jaime thinks he can have it all.  I doubt Jaime has even thought through the repercussions of freeing Tyrion, at least not those related to Cersei.  Jaime has no idea Cersei is building the Mountainstein.  He doesn't know about Lancel.  I don't think he even knows she was ready to kill Tommen.

 

Jaime is a very simple man who cares about 2, actually now make that 3 things, 1) Cersei , 2) Tyrion and 3) Brienne.  He doesn't really think or plan ahead, he just "does", so I agree that he didn't think of the repercussions of freeing Tyrion, he loves his brother and no way would he let him die.

 

As for Cersei, I don't know if he thinks this would be the last time, I don't think he particularly cares what Cersei will think as he knows she hates Tyrion and has known this since they were children (refer to Oberyn's story of 4 year old Jaime stopping Cersei from hurting Tyrion). As a poster said, he compartmentalizes however he will now have a situation where that will not work as Cersei will most definitely rip him a new one and will probably be withholding the sexytimes once again.

[BlackberryJam]

We, the viewers, know Cersei is a wine-saturated, willing to kill her child, down with murdering her husband's bastards, Lancel fucking, Qyburn funding bitch.  Jaime knows Cersei is his sister, his love, the mother of his children.  He knows she says cutting and cruel things.  He knows she hates Tyrion.  He's always known she hates Tyrion though.  That's nothing new.  Jaime still wants to bang her.

 

Jaime and Cersei's arcs require a rift.  I don't think Jaime needed the rift with Tyrion and while some of Tyrion's actions make less sense without the rift from Jaime, I think the story can be easily adjusted to have Tyrion protecting Jaime. 

[magdalene]

It's confusing and frustrating loving Jaime Lannister as both a books reader and show watcher. But probably not as confusing and frustrating as the pull of Cersei's vagina is for Jaime.

 

But I loved the good-bye between the brothers - almost made me cry.

[Lady S.]

So Jaime and Cersei are an item again, I absolutely did not see that coming, I thought they were kaput.

 

Loved the goodbye between Jaime and Tyrion, very heartfelt.

Nikolaj kept saying there'd be some follow-up to Jaime/Cersei in the finale, but given Septgate I was kinda scared what that would be. So, one last fully consensual incest act in another inappropriate place was a refreshing development for me. I've always enjoyed the fucked-upness of these two freaks, it's more interesting than Theon accidentally feeling up his sister or Loras setting up his sister as his lover's beard with her planning to involve Loras as Renly's fluffer, and even Septgate is better than Viserys inspecting Dany's naked body and talking about letting an entire khalasar rape her. I expect this to be their last sexytimes and expect Cersei/Lancel to come out at some point, but I hope her pull on Jaime only really ends with her death, hopefully at Jaime's hands (both flesh and golden) to give another parallel between Cersei and Lysa (the bizarroCersei), and give a parallel between Jaime and Tyrion with both killing their lovers. Jaime just getting over her completely and settling down with someone else would disappoint me after watching him swear to kill anyone but Cersei to be with her.

 

Tyrion/Jaime is the probably the Lannister relationship I have the most feelings about though, if not the sibling relationship overall that I have the most feelings about. But after seeing people think he'd turn on Cersei after watching the mockery of a trial she orchestrated against Tyrion, I do think it needs to be noted that he wasn't actually that surprised and Obie's story also showed that Jaime always knew she wanted Tyrion dead. He was able to ignore their difference of opinion there and compartmentalize his love for both of them until Joffrey's death made Cersei want him to choose instead of accepting Jaime's protection of Tyrion.

 

I certainly don't think Jaime would hold Cersei's almost killing Tommen against her when they were both almost killed by Stannis, he probably would just wish he could have been there to protect his family from Stannis himself.

Edited June 17, 2014 by Lady S.

[sev]

As tragic and foreshadowing as it might be, I 'd really hate if Jaime were the one to kill Cersei, because it would feel like all the blame is put on her. While it might seem the the perfect redemptive act, Jaime is the one responsible for his bad actions, Cersei is responsible for hers. 

I'd prefer she'd be sentenced by

a dead Cat  (even if it's not quite in the prophecy)

for  her indifference to the pain of others.

 

Although sometimes there's more to that, killing the (female) lover that cheated on you , is a bad trope.

Edited June 17, 2014 by sev

[Lady S.]

Eh, the narrative kind of already puts more blame on Cersei, but murdering her would hardly be a redemptive act. I hate theories of him killing her to save Brienne or some shit, but anything else would be destroying the Lannister regime he helped maintain even without wanting power for himself, House Lannister self-destructing even more. A murder/suicide would be ideal or both somehow killing each other, but if he does kill her and survive I don't expect him to ride off into the sunset happily ever after. I'd rather

UnCat

kill

Littlefinger or Roose Bolton

than kill Cersei. And I think

the prophecy does mean something since they're including it in s5 and the whole reason they cut most other prophecies was so as to not encourage wild theorizing.

[Greta]

I've got a half-baked theory,

 

based on repeated mentions of the Maidenvault in which Baelor the Blessed locked up his sisters,

that rather than dead Cersei might end up locked

in either the actual Maidenvault or some room in Casterly Rock,

as a riff on the madwoman in the attic.

If Jaime (or Tyrion or whoever) did shut her up like that it would be a version of their hands slowly choking the life out of her. And probably worse than death for Cersei.

Edited June 17, 2014 by Greta

[Independent George]

My apologies for the backseat moderating, but if every third line equires a spoiler tag, maybe we're in the wrong thread.

[cristix]

I was disappointed with Jaime. Try to exercise a little self-discipline.

Well, as somebody else said, he is a guy in love! We may want him to bitch Cercei, because she needs to be bitched :), but if we really think about it, and do not take into consideration that it is Cercei, it is quite romantic. He is a guy in love!

 

He is upset with her right now, for everything she has done against Tyrion and for her rejection of him and of his hand, but his feelings for her cannot just vanish! The bond between them is extremely deep. They have shared a life together. She has been the only woman in his life. She has been the woman he has loved his entire life and for which he has sacrificed everything. Besides, the relationshio between twins is always powerful, and even more in this case, where they are not only brothers, but lovers.

 

I am not disappointed with him because regardless of the fact that he gave in and had sex with her, HE STILL FREED TYRION!

 

So basically, we have the feeling that Cercei has the upper hand in their relationship, because while he loves her, she mainly uses him and manipulates him, or tries to, but in reality what happens is that Jaime does what he wants!

 

-She asks him to bring her Sansa´s head. He sends Brienne to find Sansa and keep her safe.

 

-She asks him to kill Tyrion. He does everything that is in his power to save Tyrion. He is even willing to gjve up KL and hence Cercei, in order to save his brother.

 

-She asks him what he choses, her or Tyrion and once he sleeps with her, I am pretty sure that she thinks Jaime has been fooled and has chosen her, giving up on Tyrion. But what Jaime actually does, is freeing Tyrion.

 

Ha! It really makes me laugh! Cercei, once again, thinks that she is smarter than everybody else. She thinks that all she has to do is have sex with Jaime and he will do everything she wants, because he is so in love with her. And this is not the case. He is in love. So he can be hurt by her quite esily. And he wants to be with her so she can bitch him and reject him and feel superior or whatever, but in the end, she cannot manipulate him to do what she wants. Jaime is not stupid! And he has ba..ls

Edited June 18, 2014 by cristix

[Constantinople]

He is upset with her right now, for everything she has done against Tyrion and for her rejection of him and of his hand, but his feelings for her cannot just vanish!

 

There's a difference  between having feelings and acting on them.

 

I'm finding it increasingly hard to believe that Jaime was one of the greatest swordsmen of his age.  He has no self-control.

[Lady S.]

Is self-control required to be good with a sword? Jaime's certainly reckless, but I've only seen a total lack of self-control in the matter of sex with his sister. Although that is kind of a big issue for him.

 

Ha! It really makes me laugh! Cercei, once again, thinks that she is smarter than everybody else. She thinks that all she has to do is have sex with Jaime and he will do everything she wants, because he is so in love with her. And this is not the case. He is in love. So he can be hurt by her quite esily. And he wants to be with her so she can bitch him and reject him and feel superior or whatever, but in the end, she cannot manipulate him to do what she wants. Jaime is not stupid! And he has ba..ls

I think this is a good point as to Jaime being responsible for his own actions, he has a carnal weakness for the Evil Vagina, but he's perfectly capable of resisting Cersei's requests when they're things he doesn't want to do.

 

These two golden incesters have been in a unhealthy co-dependent relationship for most of their lives, which was obsessive on Jaime's part, it's not going to be easy to break this relationship up. Whether Jaime gets a happy ending away from Cersei or not, I'm not surprised that that is an on/off cycle.

Edited June 18, 2014 by Lady S.

[Anne Elk]

I'm not surprised Jaime can be a good fighter and a fool for Cersei at the same time. He can get away from the politics and intrigue that come from his family and rely solely on instinct and skill. Fighting is something of an escape from his problems. It doesn't seem unbelievable that someone could be supercompetent professionally while his personal life is a total trainwreck. I've certainly seen that happen in real life.

 

Sick and twisted as it is, Jaime/Cersei is one of a very few love stories remaining where one or both of the lovers haven't died. Plus, that kind of can't-quit-you relationship is dramatic TV red meat. I expect the showrunners will keep them going as long as they can.

Edited June 18, 2014 by Anne Elk

[cristix]

What has sword fighting has to do with sef control?

 

And why should Jaime exercise self control and not have sex with Cercei in the first place? Because she is a bitch and we hate her?

 

Jaime and Cercei are in a relationship. Unconventional, twisted, unhealthy, yes; but a relationship, still. They have had a fight and their relationship is tense right now because of Tyrion and of how Cercei has rejected Jaime for being unwholy. But this has not been enough to make Jaime give up on Cercei. She is the woman he has loved all his life, for which he has sacrificed his entire life. You do not give up on the people you love so easily.

 

He is upset with her for the Tyrion thing, but he still desires her and loves her. So why exercise self control and not have sex with her? Besides, Cercei's hatred for Tyrion is not new. Jaime has experienced it all his life. It has only reached a pick now.

 

What he must do is distanced himself from her and move on. I am sure that he will get there. He just needs one more push. And we will probably get the push in season 5, Cercei will be "in charge" for the first time, now that Tywin is gone and this cannot go well at all. She will probably take a lot of bad decisions, and this will create a further breach between her and Jaime.

 

So I don't see Jaime sleeping with Cercei as a lack of self control. For me what is more important is that he has his own agenda and he doesn't obey her with anything.

Edited June 18, 2014 by cristix

[Constantinople]

Is self-control required to be good with a sword?

 

What has sword fighting has to do with sef control?

I imagine Syrio Forrel would say that sword fighting has almost everything to do with self-control. Or, if you prefer, self discipline.

And why should Jaime exercise self control and not have sex with Cercei in the first place?

Jaime and Cercei are in a relationship. Unconventional, twisted, unhealthy...

You just answered your own question.

[cristix]

 

I imagine Syrio Forrel would say that sword fighting has almost everything to do with self-control. Or, if you prefer, self discipline.

You just answered your own question.

No, I actually I haven't answered my question. Because we were not discussing whether Jaime/Cercei is a good thing or not.

 

Because what you said was that you are "disappointed" in Jaime for not saying No to Cercei in episode 10. The definition of "disappointment" is: "displeasure by the non-fulfillment of one's hopes or expectations". So by saying that you are disappointed, you actually say that you were expecting Jaime to behave differently in episode 10. You are not talking about the relationship of Jaime and Cercei in general and about if it is a good thing or a bad thing for them. You are just saying that you were expecting Jaime to say No to Cercei in episode 10.

 

And to this statement I am saying WHY? Why should he behave differently with Cercei in episode 10 than the way he behaved before? He is still a man in love. So him saying yes to sex with Cercei doesn't seem such big deal. He is displeased with her for the whole Tyrion thing, but he hasn't let her go yet. He will eventually get there, I am sure. But he is not there yet.

 

As to the sword fighting thing, I agree with the person before me. What does self control in personal life has to do with sword fighting? It just seems like you are trying to find arguments against Jaime even where there aren't. A lot of characters said that he was one of the greater fighters, he was made a knight at a very small age because he was that good, but you have to come and say that you don't believe this is to be true. And your argument is that he said YES to sex with the woman he loves.

Edited June 18, 2014 by cristix

[NoWillToResist]

I went back and forth so often on Jaime in this episode that I got a little dizzy. :)

 

Loved that he called Cersei on her bullshit statement that newborn Tyrion "chose" to kill their mother.

 

I then groaned in frustration when he gave in to her. Not surprised...just disappointed that he still wants to fuck her knowing that she lied under oath in an attempt to have their brother sentenced to death. Oh, and that was after she flat out asked Jaime to kill Tyrion.

 

I then cheered when he decided to break Tyrion out anyway. Nice to know that the pull of Cersei's vagina only goes so far. ;)

 

So, I guess it's a good thing that Jaime continues to be an intriguing mix of good and bad

[Lady S.]

I then groaned in frustration when he gave in to her. Not surprised...just disappointed that he still wants to fuck her knowing that she lied under oath in an attempt to have their brother sentenced to death. Oh, and that was after she flat out asked Jaime to kill Tyrion.

Well, he already fucked her before after she asked him to kill Tyrion. I think it's kinda telling that he comforts her after refusing there and only calls her a hateful woman when she kisses him and then pulls away. And why would lying under oath be a dealbreaker? Cersei is a lying liar who lies and has wanted Tyrion dead since his birth, not like this was really a new low for her that Jaime would have believed her incapable of.

[NoWillToResist]

 

Cersei is a lying liar who lies and has wanted Tyrion dead since his birth

 

But to me, there's a world of difference between WANTING/WISHING something to happen and actively doing something shady to MAKE that something happen.

 

Jaime's comment to her about baby Tyrion implies to me that he had previously just dismissed Cersei's attitude as an irrational dislike/hatred of her brother. But lately, he's seen a side of her which proves that her hatred is not passive or just a latent wish. She will actively lie and manipulate TO MURDER THEIR BROTHER...a brother that Jaime happens to love. I don't really get how that wasn't a deal-breaker for him.

 

For all his earlier promises about how he would have killed anyone and anything to get back to her, he certainly hasn't seemed willing to turn his back on his brother. He was willing to leave Cersei behind and move to Casterly Rock to save Tyrion's life. When that all went to shit, he committed treason and arranged Tyrion's escape. I have trouble matching the actions of that man, to the man who happily fucked the woman who engineered all those problems in the first place.

[Lady S.]

She had already actively started trying to murder Tyrion when she asked Jaime to do it for her, trying to preempt any trial at all, but neither Jaime nor Tyrion acted the least bit surprised that she did that. How is then rigging the trial a step up from that? Jaime had to stop her from twisting Tyrion's penis off as a baby, yeah they were little kids but that was one example of very active hatred, his protection of Tyrion always included from Cersei. So I think he had reason to worry about what Cersei would do to Tyrion if it weren't for him, and that problem arose after Joffrey's murder when she no longer cared what Jaime thought about Tyrion. I wouldn't call his deal with Tywin a definitive choice of Tyrion over Cersei, at that point she was calling him useless and didn't want him around so it's not like he could expect the future with Cersei he'd hoped for if he let Tyrion be executed, it wasn't a choice between Tyrion's life and being with Cersei, he'd be risking Tyrion's life for the hope of being with Cersei. If trying to murder the brother Jaime loved was the big problem in their relationship, he shouldn't have comforted and then fucked her after she asked him to murder the brother he loved himself. I'd expect more of a shocked refusal there if he didn't expect that she was capable of murdering Tyrion.

[cristix]

I sort of agree with both of you, NoWillToResist and Lady S.

 

The way I see it: Jaime is used to Cercei treating Tyrion very badly and trying to hurt him. This is not new. And despite of this, they have lived like this during all these years: Jaime loving Tyrion and trying to protect him, Cercei hating Tyrion and trying to hurt him, and Jaime loving Cercei.

 

What happens in season 4, is more of the same, plus something extra. Jaime is not immune to this "extra bad treatment". Especially after his experiences from season 3, his interaction with Brienne etc. He starts to see what a hateful person Cercei really is. Hence his comments to her. However, he is still bound by his love for her and his connection to her and the events of season 4 are not YET enough to thrown him over the edge and make him give up on Cercei. The same as Tywin´s bad treatment of Tyrion in season 4 is not enough for Jaime to break entirely his relationship with his father and treat him badly or disrespectfully. Remember the scene where Jaime confronts Tywin. He is still respectful there. He is not telling his father that he hates him and that he (Jaime) doesn´t want anything to do with Tywin.

 

So I don´t think that the Jaime who does everything to help Tyrion is in contradiction with the Jaime who bangs Cercei. I think it makes a lot of sense to have both parts of Jaime. Because after all Jaime is a man torn between different loyalties and affections, And because a relationship so unhealthy as the one between Jaime and Cercei cannot be severed so easily. I think it is perfectly understandable that before it ends completely-which I have no doubt it will happen- there will be some more push and pull.

[NoWillToResist]

 

If trying to murder the brother Jaime loved was the big problem in their relationship, he shouldn't have comforted and then fucked her after she asked him to murder the brother he loved himself. I'd expect more of a shocked refusal there if he didn't expect that she was capable of murdering Tyrion.

 

True, but I had the impression that Jaime felt her desire to have Tyrion die was due to her conclusion that Tyrion had actually killed Joffrey. Objectively, I can see him 'understanding' her desire for vengeance in light of that. But after Jaime visits Tyrion in prison and talks with him, he goes to Cersei to say that Tyrion DIDN'T kill Joffrey, and he seems to expect Cersei to accept and believe that. She ignores that and then, IIRC, perjures herself on the stand in order to further damn Tyrion to a guilty verdict (assuming I understood Jaime's reaction shots correctly). THAT, to me, implies that Jaime did not realize that Cersei no longer gave a fuck about Tyrion's guilt...she just wanted him dead and was willing to lie to make it happen.

 

So, basically, I could excuse Jaime banging his sister when he thought she was out of her head with grief and blathering on about making Tyrion pay for "what he did", but I have a bit more trouble excusing it after everything that occurred later.

[Independent George]

But after Jaime visits Tyrion in prison and talks with him, he goes to Cersei to say that Tyrion DIDN'T kill Joffrey, and he seems to expect Cersei to accept and believe that. She ignores that and then, IIRC, perjures herself on the stand in order to further damn Tyrion to a guilty verdict (assuming I understood Jaime's reaction shots correctly). THAT, to me, implies that Jaime did not realize that Cersei no longer gave a fuck about Tyrion's guilt...she just wanted him dead and was willing to lie to make it happen.

But she didn't perjure herself - everything in her own testimony was either factually true, or an unfalsifiable supposition. I think she really and truly does believe Tyrion tried to kill Joffrey at Blackwater, and that he murdered him at the wedding.

Shae is the only person to actually perjure herself, and her testimony is actually very believable. Meryn Trant told the truth at the trial. So did Pycelle.

[NoWillToResist]

Oh, okay. I thought the reason we kept cutting to Jaime's reaction shots during Cersei's testimony was because he realized she was lying (or twisting things).

 

Perhaps he simply thought that Cersei would trust his judgement when he said that, after speaking with Tyrion, he knew Tyrion didn't kill Joffrey.

 

I guess if he still figures that Cersei believes their brother to be guilty, it's a little less of a conflict of interest (though I think it's a bit shady of him to release Tyrion right after banging his sister, who has every expectation that Tyrion will be 'rightfully' executed in the morning).

[Constantinople]

She had already actively started trying to murder Tyrion when she asked Jaime to do it for her, trying to preempt any trial at all, but neither Jaime nor Tyrion acted the least bit surprised that she did that. How is then rigging the trial a step up from that?

There's a difference between outright murdering someone and corrupting the justice system to murder someone. Ultimately, there's little enough difference for the victim, but I think a small part of Jaime still believes in truth, justice and the Westerosi way.

In Jaime's first scene in the S4 finale, we see him yet again reading his entry in the Big Book of Kuhniggets. Part of this, perhaps most of this, is a middle aged man's mid-life crisis about what his life has meant. But part of it is, I think, that Jaime still clings, albeit tenuously, to the idea that knights should perform knightly acts of the sort that show up in that book, such as defending the weak from the machinations of the strong; that the innocent shouldn't be punished for the crimes of the guilty; and that trials should be fair and dedicated to uncovering the truth, not to framing someone.

 

But she didn't perjure herself - everything in her own testimony was either factually true, or an unfalsifiable supposition. I think she really and truly does believe Tyrion tried to kill Joffrey at Blackwater, and that he murdered him at the wedding.

Shae is the only person to actually perjure herself, and her testimony is actually very believable. Meryn Trant told the truth at the trial. So did Pycelle.

Since Cersei put together the case against Tyrion, she's guilty of conspiracy to commit perjury, even if she didn't lie when she was testifying.

Moreover, Pycelle perjured himself when he testified that his store of poison was raided when he was in the Black Cells, and that Tyrion was the one who stole it. At the very least, Pycelle's testimony doesn't make any sense. Pycelle was imprisoned briefly in Season 2, but Pycelle said nothing about allegedly missing poisons until Tyrion's trial in Season 4. This poisons are incredibly dangerous, yet Pycelle, by his own account, did nothing. Didn't alert anyone, didn't try to recover them, nothing. If Pycelle's story is true, big if, his negligence led directly to the death of King Joffrey, yet Pycelle remains unpunished. Curious.

 

Jaime and Cercei are in a relationship. Unconventional, twisted, unhealthy...

 

You just answered your own question.

 

No, I actually I haven't answered my question. Because we were not discussing whether Jaime/Cercei is a good thing or not.

A twisted and unhealthy relationship is, in my opinion, a bad thing.

[Rocket]

Sort of want to see a historical flash back to one of the successful, loving, Targaran brother/sister marriages just to compare. Could the public stand a story about an healthy relationship incest couple who were not evil and did good. 

[Lady S.]

Oh, okay. I thought the reason we kept cutting to Jaime's reaction shots during Cersei's testimony was because he realized she was lying (or twisting things).

 

Perhaps he simply thought that Cersei would trust his judgement when he said that, after speaking with Tyrion, he knew Tyrion didn't kill Joffrey.

 

I guess if he still figures that Cersei believes their brother to be guilty, it's a little less of a conflict of interest (though I think it's a bit shady of him to release Tyrion right after banging his sister, who has every expectation that Tyrion will be 'rightfully' executed in the morning).

Ah, I see our difference of opinion here, you think Jaime found her earnest in the sept but that her lying at the trial would make him doubt she really believed Tyrion was their son's murderer. I don't see any indication of that. Cersei obviously wanted vengeance, not justice, but that doesn't mean she was working so passionately to avenge a crime she didn't believe he committed. I think Jaime hoped the trial might not be so bad, that he wanted to believe that, not that he didn't know what Cersei was capable of. She twists the truth against people, but it doesn't mean she doesn't blame them. Look at her first farce of a trial back in 1.02, I don't think she believed her own story of Joffrey being an innocent victim, but she didn't care, Arya did hit him in the head with a stick and disarm him, and Nymeria did attack him, so she wanted them both punished for hurting her special boy. Jaime had to know all about this, and I'm even more sure he didn't believe Joff was innocent. Cersei told him she believed Tyrion would kill them all if he could right after he says Tyrion didn't do it, so I don't know why he would think he got through to her and Tyrion would be the one person in the world she wouldn't twist the truth about.

 

I think it's notable that when Tyrion says Cersei will do whatever she can to kill him, Jaime doesn't deny it, he just changes the subject by bringing up Sansa. Jaime later defends Tywin's willingness to have Tyrion killed but never denies Cersei's. He tries to reason with Cersei, but it clearly doesn't get through, so I don't know why he'd think Cersei now knew Tyrion couldn't be the murderer of their son. Cersei did twist the truth about the circumstances of Tyrion's "joy turn to ashes in your mouth", and maybe Jaime realized that he couldn't be threatening her over a simple scolding about whoring. But he did threaten her in those exact words, and threatened Joffrey multiple times, so her suspicion of Tyrion is not quite as insane as blaming him for killing their mother as a baby. It's also notable that Jaime dismisses that belief in the finale scene but never mentions her belief that Tyrion killed Joffrey, as if he's surprised she still believes one but not surprised she still believes in the other. In his negotiation with Tywin he accuses Tywin of knowing the trial is a farce, so telling Cersei she'd won would be a good time to say she'd won even though she knew Tyrion was innocent of Joffrey's murder, if he had any reason to believe she knew that.

In Jaime's first scene in the S4 finale, we see him yet again reading his entry in the Big Book of Kuhniggets. Part of this, perhaps most of this, is a middle aged man's mid-life crisis about what his life has meant. But part of it is, I think, that Jaime still clings, albeit tenuously, to the idea that knights should perform knightly acts of the sort that show up in that book, such as defending the weak from the machinations of the strong; that the innocent shouldn't be punished for the crimes of the guilty; and that trials should be fair and dedicated to uncovering the truth, not to framing someone.

I agree that Jaime still has a buried sense of idealism, and the fulfillment of those ideals is part of what appeals to him about Brienne. But as it is a tenuous connection to his inner-chivalry, I don't think he's so much shocked as frustrated when Westeros lets him down. He may be disillusioned by Cersei's treatment of him after his one-handed return, but I personally think that's his only blind spot with Cersei and that otherwise, he knows who she is, and doesn't idealize her as a better person.

Edited June 19, 2014 by Lady S.

[Anne Elk]

I think Jaime's entire relationship with Cersei is a blind spot. He thinks he's in a love story for the ages where they are true soul mates cruelly separated by everyone else in the world. None of this has anything to do with who Cersei actually is or what the two of them are actually doing, it's just a fantasy. But he's built his entire life around that fantasy and at this point he's willing to rationalize almost anything to keep it going. At the same time, Jaime has notions about being a hero, but he's such a passive person that he never acts until the last possible minute, as he did when killing the mad king and saving Brienne from the bear. I think he always figured that no matter what Cersei did, either Tywin or Robert would be around to stop her, so Jaime himself didn't have to care or do anything. He's only acting to save Tyrion now because he realized that Tywin was planning to let him die.

[cristix]

I have lost track a little bit of which is the point every one of you is trying to make. :)

 

In any case, in my opinion, regardless of whether Jaime considers Cercei capable of murdering Tyrion (since forever or realized just during season 4, in whichever moment of season 4) and regardless of whether Jaime thinks that Cercei lied during the trial or that Cercei believes Tyrion to be guilty or not, Jaime still having sex with Cercei doesn´t seem a contradiction to me. Nor does it throw a black spot on his character.

 

Because: 1. Jaime has loved Cercei all his life and you cannot end a love like this so easily and 2. Cercei´s actions towards Tyrion is season 4 are not thaaat shocking to Jaime. It is not like she was all nice to Tyrion up to season 4 and suddenly she tries to kill Tyrion in season 4. Her actions are just a step further than the way she has behaved towards Tyrion their entire life.

 

Now, leaving the sex scene aside, I want to say that i think season 4 showed us the differences between Jaime and Cercei more clearly than any other season. We have finally had them together again (for the first time since season 1) and now we have been able to see more clearly how they are.

 

I think at the beginning we were seeing them as the evil twins couple. Beautiful, powerful, merciless, power hungry, capable of stepping over anything and anyone in order to get what they want. But with what we have found out about each of them, I think we can say now that this is not true. And the whole issue with Tyrion has helped us see this more clearly. The true nature of each of them, has been revealed, in my opinion, with Oberyn´s story about young Cercei and young Jaime.

 

Cercei is a mean, cruel person. Jaime is not. A 4 years old Cercei hurt her little brother, spoke of him as of a monster. A 4 years old Jaime protected his brother and asked her to stop hurting him. I think this is telling. Because we can argue that Cercei is a victim of circumstance, or of her family etc. But Jaime grew up in the same family. And despite his father attitude and despite Cercei´s attitude, he has always cared for Tyrion. The comparison, of course does not stop here: Cercei hungers for power, Jaime doesn´t- Cercei is selfish and she "loves" Jaime as long as he is her perfect half-self and he helps her; she doesn´t love him when he is missing a hand and he doesn´t do what she wants. Whereas Jaime truly loves Cercei. etc..But I think the most telling thing is this story of young Cercei and young Jaime.

 

Constantinopole, I am not arguing that Jaime and Cercei are a bad thing. I agree with you on that. I was, however, under the impression that we were talking about whether Jaime sleeping with Cercei in episode 10, after the whole Tyrion stuff was 1. a contradiction to other actions of Jaime in season 4 ; 2. a regress in the evolution of his character. I say No to both things, for the time being. I would see this as a black spot on Jaime´s character only if in season 5 she asks him to do bad things and he obeys and/or he continues to give in and have sex with her throughout season 5 despite her expected-to-be crazy actions. But I expect a sort of push and pull at the beginning of season 5 and then a crush of their relationship. And I think the basis for that has been set in this season 4.

 

Edited June 20, 2014 by cristix

[Lady S.]

It's also important that Jaime does start off the scene arguing with her about Tyrion, but she distracts him by saying she came clean to Tywin and chooses Jaime above anyone else. And then she says she doesn't care if anyone walks in on them. I think Jaime's reaction shows that this scenario is a dream come true for him, and overshadows Tyrion's death sentence. Jaime's always loved Tyrion, but if he wasn't able to compartmentalize, he wouldn't be in love with someone who thought his bro and best friend was a monster to begin with, even before she started actively trying to have Tyrion killed. So it was worth it for him to bang her at least one more time before saving Tyrion anyway.

 

I agree that Cersei's love for Jaime is selfish, but I don't think she should be faulted overmuch for not loving Jaime the same way he loves her. Septgate aside, Jaime's love is already unhealthy, even if Cersei weren't his sister and a narcissistic megabitch, because it's obsessive. Jaime was never power hungry, but he was willing to kill almost anyone who stood in the way of his and Cersei's love without a second thought. I don't think immediate family ever figured into that, and that Alton was disposable as a very distant cousin he'd only met once before, but it is interesting that his s1 dreamworld wasn't being able to raise his children with Cersei as a family, but living with Cersei as the only two people in the world. I could almost understand Septgate, because s1 Cersei was turned on by this and pulled Jaime's arms around her tighter, after previously telling him to let go of her, to which he'd replied "Never.". S4 Jaime hasn't felt the need to kill anyone, but he was still possessive enough to try to intimidate a gay guy who didn't even want Cersei as his beard. And even if Cersei did consent in the sept, I'm not sure how respectful to Cersei it'd be to choose right beside Joff's corpse as a place to get down, when Cersei was genuinely grieving the loss of their son. But I suppose it's possible that Cersei would be freaky enough to get turned on by Joffrey watching them, or would forget Joffrey momentarily as Jaime forgot Tyrion for round 2 of s4 twincest in inappropriate places, alas, we'll never know since TPTB didn't see the need to illuminate Cersei's feelings at all. 

Edited June 21, 2014 by Lady S.

[lawless]

I suspect that Jaime has always been aware that Cersei has a cruel, ruthless streak, but while they were children and while she was married to Robert, it was more or less contained -- she only had so much power and go only go so far with it.  So Jaime has been has been able to rationalize that her cruel streak is less significant than it really is, and/or he has been able to curb it or someone else has.  He also probably rationalized that she was just acting on her grief over the loss of their mother, or over the indignity and frustration of having to marry and sleep with Robert.  In that light, a lot of her nastier moments might have been explained away in his head as reactions to wrongs done to her.  Plus there is the matter of perspective.  Their father is frighteningly ruthless and tried to mentor them to be the same, albeit intelligently so, and Jaime also witnessed Aerys in action burning people.  So he probably was aware of her crueler tendencies, but has been able to overlook it, particularly since he's been caught up in their mad, dangerous, forbidden love affair all his life.

 

Now that he's had time away from her, in war, and now that he made a friend in Brienne (possibly the only non-Lannister friend he's ever had) and now that he's had the experience of being rejected by Cersei for being damaged, the veil has started to lift a little.  However, what else is there for him?  Being a glorified body-guard is pretty pathetic, given all the options open to him.  I think he did it largely to avoid having to marry someone else, so he could still be with Cersei.  He's built everything around her. and his commitment to their crazy love affair.  Though he's starting to see Cersei's uglier side, particularly with her treatment of Tyrion, I'm not surprised at all that he wasn't ready to chuck everything he had with Cersei.  She was the one who pulled away from him, not the other way around.  He was willing to quarrel with her and criticize her for the way she treated Tyrion, but it looked like he had formulated the backup escape plan with Varys.  I think Jaime still wants things to be the way he thought they used to be with Cersei, and eagerly jumped at the chance when it looked like that was what she was offering.

What will be interesting to see is how Jaime views her in the future, now that Tywin is dead and she has so much more power.  He didn't witness Joffrey's treatment of Sansa, and Cersei's acquiescence to it, or her order to Pycelle to let the dogs have the food rather than the poor, and so on.  He hasn't seen what the audience has seen, in other words and had ways to rationale her behavior in the past, most likely.  He's likely to see much more of what Cersei is really like with real power and limited restraints now that she's Queen Regent over Tommen and their father is dead.  Depending on how that goes, that may irrevocably open his eyes to her.  But as for where they are now, though I was disappointed because I want Jaime to break up with Cersei, I wasn't surprised and didn't fault him, or at least not much more than I do for being in a

relationship with her from the get go.

 

But I suppose it's possible that Cersei would be freaky enough to get turned on by Joffrey watching them,

Blergh.  But maybe it was the idea that their love is so special and amazing that nothing, literally nothing else matters.  All the rest of the world is blur and they only see each other.  Consistent with Jaime talking about killing everyone else in the world until it was just the two of them, and Cersei kind of playing on that by saying let other people whisper, they're so small, she can't even see them.  I can recall that kind of sentiment as a teenager, but it's just not healthy and you're supposed to grow out of it for a reason.  Their love is real, I think, but sick.  I hope Jaime pulls out of it voluntarily, though what would come next for him I can't imagine.

Edited June 21, 2014 by lawless

[bluvelvet]

Sort of want to see a historical flash back to one of the successful, loving, Targaran brother/sister marriages just to compare. Could the public stand a story about an healthy relationship incest couple who were not evil and did good.

I have always wondered about this, thus far in the series incest seems to be frowned upon yet the Targaryans married brother/sister for centuries and ruled. Were they excused because they were the rulers and had dragons? I would think Ina society with that type of history in its regents wouldn't really blink at Jaime/Cersei.

I think Jaime knows Cersei has a negative side but he doesn't understands the depths to which they extend. During most of their adult life in Kings Landing they have been a peace and while Cersei may do her little games such as the Mycah and Joffrey situation, she was pretty secure and probably hasn't had to lash out. However now that they are at war and power plays are happening her less than stellar qualities are there. Jaimie has been away for most of this and now he's back and seeing the extent of her cruel. As got Tyrion, I think Cersei truly believes he killed Joffrey and will do anything to ensure his death. She hated Tyrion before and obviously hurt him as a child but she really hasn't done much to him as an adult except say a few nasty words and threats and we have seen that Tyrion is well equipped to handle her verbally. They even had some amicable scenes. Now with Joffrey dead it's another ball of wax. While Jaime may believe that Cersei hates and will hurt Tyrion I don't know if he really understood her desire to see him dead until this season.

I fully believe that Jaime and Cersei will have a complete break but it will take time as they have been involved with each other for so long. Cersei is Jaimie's only love/love of his life and as much as the scales are falling from his eyes it will take time to for him to break.

[Lady S.]

 Plus there is the matter of perspective.  Their father is frighteningly ruthless and tried to mentor them to be the same, albeit intelligently so, and Jaime also witnessed Aerys in action burning people.  So he probably was aware of her crueler tendencies, but has been able to overlook it, particularly since he's been caught up in their mad, dangerous, forbidden love affair all his life.

I think that's a big part of it, Jaime and Tyrion don't buy into Tywin's ends always justify the means, other people are sheep philosophy the same way Cersei does, but being raised with that can make someone willing to overlook a hell of a lot. They all three resent Tywin but still believe in the Lannister bullshit to varying extents. Jaime doesn't like Tywin and he appears to care the least about Tywin's approval, but he still defended him to Tyrion, listened to Tywin in s1 about shaping up and followed his orders, and pulled the powerful daddy card when he felt like it. And Tyrion, "the human face of Lannisterism", craved Tywin's approval prior to the trial. Tyrion and Jaime had their own standards, but it's hard to really condemn your family when you still identify and want to be part of them, especially with all those years of Lannister indoctrination.

 

I feel like if it weren't for Joffrey's murder, and now Tyrion's escape and murder of Tywin, Cersei's mania might remain more contained and Jaime wouldn't have to deal with it. After his journey with Brienne, he was still eager to go back to his previous life, and it was Cersei who wouldn't let him.

 

I have always wondered about this, thus far in the series incest seems to be frowned upon yet the Targaryans married brother/sister for centuries and ruled. Were they excused because they were the rulers and had dragons? I would think Ina society with that type of history in its regents wouldn't really blink at Jaime/Cersei.

Pretty much, it's hard to tell a king on dragonback that his marriage is immoral. Even after the dragans died out, only 100+ years ago, the legend of Aegon the Conquerer lives on, his line is still the blood of the dragon, the blood of Old Valyria, not like regular Westerosi. The dragonkings were above the rules of other men, but it doesn't mean their choices were endorsed by all their subjects and thought fit to imitate. Sometimes a king can get away with anything without the social/religious mores being changed for everyone else. People wouldn't blink an eye anymore at close-incest-marriages of Valryian blood but two Andal siblings would be unprecedented. I think Jaime and Cersei, raised with the Lannisters are worth more attitude, probably did believe at one time that they should be able to love like the Targs, and by the time they figured this wouldn't really be allowed, it was too late and just became their dirty fun secret. There were royal dynasties in our world who practiced closer-than-cousins incest, which probably influenced GRRM in this aspect of the Targs. For example, the ancient Egyptian pharaohs practiced at least half-sibling marriages, as their gods such as Osiris and his sister Isis did, on the basis that the pharaohs were the embodiment of the gods.

Edited June 22, 2014 by Lady S.

[lawless]

Tyrion and Jaime had their own standards, but it's hard to really condemn your family when you still identify and want to be part of them, especially with all those years of Lannister indoctrination

I agree -- the Lannisters seem to be both extremely arrogant and insular, and Tywin's ruthlessness and near obsession with the family reputation and legacy kinda fed into Jaime and Cersei's relationship, because he seems to unintentionally have pushed to believe that since no one else is as good as they are . . . no one else is good enough for them.  Robert's self-destructive drunken whoring and resultant humiliation of Cersei certainly did help, it reinforced the belief.  Jaime's experiences with Brienne were significant for many reasons, and obviously the physical changes he underwent as a result of having his hand cut off opened Jaime's eyes to a different way of looking at the world.  He seems to be capable of empathy for others in an intuitive way that Tyrion shares but Cersei does not, but he's been so wrapped up in the highborn world of King's Landing and Cersei for so long, he's been very removed from the plight of other people, and simply made his secret life with Cersei the only thing that mattered.

 

With Brienne, circumstances forced him to learn to respect her, and care about her well being -- and she's not a Lannister and is enormously different from the Lannisters.  With Cersei gone, the angry Northmen gone, his injury, and this new Brienne person who he befriended, Jaime probably had the first opportunity to see himself as part of the larger world beyond Cersei for the first time in ages, if ever.  However, like you said, when he got back to King's Landing, he was eager to dive right back into his old life with Cersei. If he hadn't lost the hand, and if she hadn't reacted so badly to it, that's probably exactly what would have happened.  I still think he would have contrived with Varys to save Tyrion.  But I don't think he would have offered to leave the King's Guard and marry.  He only did that in desperation, and only because Cersei was rejecting him anyway.  Still though, knowing that he was going to sneak Tyrion off to wherever, he couldn't resist Cersei's offer of a return to their love affair.  The thing is, they can't really not care what people think, or they'll lose the throne.  So it will be interesting to see what happens.

 

the ancient Egyptian pharaohs practiced at least half-sibling marriages, as their gods such as Osiris and his sister Isis, on the basis that the pharaohs were the embodiment of the gods.

Indeed -- I have this tickle of a memory that the Ptolemy family, who were Greeks who took over Egypt after Alexander conquered, well, pretty much most of the known world, married within the family to keep the bloodline "pure" because they were outsiders.  The Valyrians were similar in that respect.  But the sibling incest taboo is pretty strong and pretty universal (Flowers in the Attic notwithstanding), so I don't think Westeros would accept an open relationship between Jaime and Cersei.  Plus, they'd lose the throne because Stannis would then clearly be entitled to it, as Ned Stark and Jon Snow realized, and which other lords and Bannerman would too, even if they acquiesce to King Tommen now.  Without plausible deniability, a lot of Lannister supporters would probably abandon them.  Can't forget, their particular incestuous relationship was also adulterous and treasonous, which the Targaryen marriages were not. 

[Lady S.]

Yes, I think Jaime and Tyrion are both capable of empathy for non-Lannisters, but Jaime kind of gave up trying to act on it after his experience with the Mad King really jaded him. (His early years in the Kingsguard would have been his last on his own until recently. Post-Kingslaying and pre-capture his world would have been all sex with Cersei, visits to/from Tyrion, and occasional legacy lectures from Tywin.)  With Brienne, they went through a major bonding experience just the two of them, where Jaime couldn't retreat into his Lannister bubble, so it was harder for him not to care about bad things happening to this almost-knight he'd come to respect. Easier to stand idly by or write off someone's life when the person is nothing to you. So IA that things would have been different for a two-handed Jaime on good terms with Cersei, but Tyrion is one person he couldn't stand idly by and watch die in front of him. His love for Tyrion was two-handed Jaime's most redeeming quality, and showed he was different from Cersei even back in s1.

Edited June 22, 2014 by Lady S.

[Rocket]

 

For example, the ancient Egyptian pharaohs practiced at least half-sibling marriages, as their gods such as Osiris and his sister Isis, on the basis that the pharaohs were the embodiment of the gods.

 

Indeed -- I have this tickle of a memory that the Ptolemy family, who were Greeks who took over Egypt after Alexander conquered, well, pretty much most of the known world, married within the family to keep the bloodline "pure" because they were outsiders.

There is good document many full brother sister marriages. And In case of one pharaoh I saw items of in a museum decades ago had a nice statue of him holding hands with his four wives two of which were sisters the other two daughters. 

In the Ptolemy family it was the law you had to marry a sibling if available and a daughter if your had one if you ran out of sisters (you were expected to keep pumping out children if your sister wife died) . This was mainly to fit local custom as brother sister was the norm for Egypt rulers. There were non relatives in the famous Cleopatra (the 7th) family tree I think in part treaty marriages, but several brother/sister combos and a I don't know how to describe it but more close than Uncle/Neice pair in her back ground. See the family bush er tree.  Cleopatra was required to marry two of her brothers (not at the same time) early on that she dumped. Surviving Roman Census data prove that a 30% brother sister marriage rate was held by everyone during the roman period. So it is a powerful taboo but like all taboo's has taught by your culture to activate and cultural expectations can over come a not extremely strong natural instinct. (incest does occur in other species) 

 

There are other cultures where the brother sister marriages seam to be confined to the royal family like the Hawaiian Royal Family

 

Now back to Westross to make my point. The Targarians clearly had not been able to push their cultural example onto the rest of their culture but I'm sure their example has created many Jammie and Cersei like secret relationships with the weakening of the taboo. Jammie I'm certain has thought many times about running away with Cersei but Cersei being a power hog is probably the one that kept them from grabbing some gold and sailing south. Jammie's quote about him and Cersei being the only ones in the world backs this up. 

Edited June 22, 2014 by Rocket