cristix

I have lost track a little bit of which is the point every one of you is trying to make. :) In any case, in my opinion, regardless of whether Jaime considers Cercei capable of murdering Tyrion (since forever or realized just during season 4, in whichever moment of season 4) and regardless of whether Jaime thinks that Cercei lied during the trial or that Cercei believes Tyrion to be guilty or not, Jaime still having sex with Cercei doesn´t seem a contradiction to me. Nor does it throw a black spot on his character. Because: 1. Jaime has loved Cercei all his life and you cannot end a love like this so easily and 2. Cercei´s actions towards Tyrion is season 4 are not thaaat shocking to Jaime. It is not like she was all nice to Tyrion up to season 4 and suddenly she tries to kill Tyrion in season 4. Her actions are just a step further than the way she has behaved towards Tyrion their entire life. Now, leaving the sex scene aside, I want to say that i think season 4 showed us the differences between Jaime and Cercei more clearly than any other season. We have finally had them together again (for the first time since season 1) and now we have been able to see more clearly how they are. I think at the beginning we were seeing them as the evil twins couple. Beautiful, powerful, merciless, power hungry, capable of stepping over anything and anyone in order to get what they want. But with what we have found out about each of them, I think we can say now that this is not true. And the whole issue with Tyrion has helped us see this more clearly. The true nature of each of them, has been revealed, in my opinion, with Oberyn´s story about young Cercei and young Jaime. Cercei is a mean, cruel person. Jaime is not. A 4 years old Cercei hurt her little brother, spoke of him as of a monster. A 4 years old Jaime protected his brother and asked her to stop hurting him. I think this is telling. Because we can argue that Cercei is a victim of circumstance, or of her family etc. But Jaime grew up in the same family. And despite his father attitude and despite Cercei´s attitude, he has always cared for Tyrion. The comparison, of course does not stop here: Cercei hungers for power, Jaime doesn´t- Cercei is selfish and she "loves" Jaime as long as he is her perfect half-self and he helps her; she doesn´t love him when he is missing a hand and he doesn´t do what she wants. Whereas Jaime truly loves Cercei. etc..But I think the most telling thing is this story of young Cercei and young Jaime. Constantinopole, I am not arguing that Jaime and Cercei are a bad thing. I agree with you on that. I was, however, under the impression that we were talking about whether Jaime sleeping with Cercei in episode 10, after the whole Tyrion stuff was 1. a contradiction to other actions of Jaime in season 4 ; 2. a regress in the evolution of his character. I say No to both things, for the time being. I would see this as a black spot on Jaime´s character only if in season 5 she asks him to do bad things and he obeys and/or he continues to give in and have sex with her throughout season 5 despite her expected-to-be crazy actions. But I expect a sort of push and pull at the beginning of season 5 and then a crush of their relationship. And I think the basis for that has been set in this season 4.

I sort of agree with both of you, NoWillToResist and Lady S. The way I see it: Jaime is used to Cercei treating Tyrion very badly and trying to hurt him. This is not new. And despite of this, they have lived like this during all these years: Jaime loving Tyrion and trying to protect him, Cercei hating Tyrion and trying to hurt him, and Jaime loving Cercei. What happens in season 4, is more of the same, plus something extra. Jaime is not immune to this "extra bad treatment". Especially after his experiences from season 3, his interaction with Brienne etc. He starts to see what a hateful person Cercei really is. Hence his comments to her. However, he is still bound by his love for her and his connection to her and the events of season 4 are not YET enough to thrown him over the edge and make him give up on Cercei. The same as Tywin´s bad treatment of Tyrion in season 4 is not enough for Jaime to break entirely his relationship with his father and treat him badly or disrespectfully. Remember the scene where Jaime confronts Tywin. He is still respectful there. He is not telling his father that he hates him and that he (Jaime) doesn´t want anything to do with Tywin. So I don´t think that the Jaime who does everything to help Tyrion is in contradiction with the Jaime who bangs Cercei. I think it makes a lot of sense to have both parts of Jaime. Because after all Jaime is a man torn between different loyalties and affections, And because a relationship so unhealthy as the one between Jaime and Cercei cannot be severed so easily. I think it is perfectly understandable that before it ends completely-which I have no doubt it will happen- there will be some more push and pull.

No, I actually I haven't answered my question. Because we were not discussing whether Jaime/Cercei is a good thing or not. Because what you said was that you are "disappointed" in Jaime for not saying No to Cercei in episode 10. The definition of "disappointment" is: "displeasure by the non-fulfillment of one's hopes or expectations". So by saying that you are disappointed, you actually say that you were expecting Jaime to behave differently in episode 10. You are not talking about the relationship of Jaime and Cercei in general and about if it is a good thing or a bad thing for them. You are just saying that you were expecting Jaime to say No to Cercei in episode 10. And to this statement I am saying WHY? Why should he behave differently with Cercei in episode 10 than the way he behaved before? He is still a man in love. So him saying yes to sex with Cercei doesn't seem such big deal. He is displeased with her for the whole Tyrion thing, but he hasn't let her go yet. He will eventually get there, I am sure. But he is not there yet. As to the sword fighting thing, I agree with the person before me. What does self control in personal life has to do with sword fighting? It just seems like you are trying to find arguments against Jaime even where there aren't. A lot of characters said that he was one of the greater fighters, he was made a knight at a very small age because he was that good, but you have to come and say that you don't believe this is to be true. And your argument is that he said YES to sex with the woman he loves.

What has sword fighting has to do with sef control? And why should Jaime exercise self control and not have sex with Cercei in the first place? Because she is a bitch and we hate her? Jaime and Cercei are in a relationship. Unconventional, twisted, unhealthy, yes; but a relationship, still. They have had a fight and their relationship is tense right now because of Tyrion and of how Cercei has rejected Jaime for being unwholy. But this has not been enough to make Jaime give up on Cercei. She is the woman he has loved all his life, for which he has sacrificed his entire life. You do not give up on the people you love so easily. He is upset with her for the Tyrion thing, but he still desires her and loves her. So why exercise self control and not have sex with her? Besides, Cercei's hatred for Tyrion is not new. Jaime has experienced it all his life. It has only reached a pick now. What he must do is distanced himself from her and move on. I am sure that he will get there. He just needs one more push. And we will probably get the push in season 5, Cercei will be "in charge" for the first time, now that Tywin is gone and this cannot go well at all. She will probably take a lot of bad decisions, and this will create a further breach between her and Jaime. So I don't see Jaime sleeping with Cercei as a lack of self control. For me what is more important is that he has his own agenda and he doesn't obey her with anything.

Well, as somebody else said, he is a guy in love! We may want him to bitch Cercei, because she needs to be bitched :), but if we really think about it, and do not take into consideration that it is Cercei, it is quite romantic. He is a guy in love! He is upset with her right now, for everything she has done against Tyrion and for her rejection of him and of his hand, but his feelings for her cannot just vanish! The bond between them is extremely deep. They have shared a life together. She has been the only woman in his life. She has been the woman he has loved his entire life and for which he has sacrificed everything. Besides, the relationshio between twins is always powerful, and even more in this case, where they are not only brothers, but lovers. I am not disappointed with him because regardless of the fact that he gave in and had sex with her, HE STILL FREED TYRION! So basically, we have the feeling that Cercei has the upper hand in their relationship, because while he loves her, she mainly uses him and manipulates him, or tries to, but in reality what happens is that Jaime does what he wants! -She asks him to bring her Sansa´s head. He sends Brienne to find Sansa and keep her safe. -She asks him to kill Tyrion. He does everything that is in his power to save Tyrion. He is even willing to gjve up KL and hence Cercei, in order to save his brother. -She asks him what he choses, her or Tyrion and once he sleeps with her, I am pretty sure that she thinks Jaime has been fooled and has chosen her, giving up on Tyrion. But what Jaime actually does, is freeing Tyrion. Ha! It really makes me laugh! Cercei, once again, thinks that she is smarter than everybody else. She thinks that all she has to do is have sex with Jaime and he will do everything she wants, because he is so in love with her. And this is not the case. He is in love. So he can be hurt by her quite esily. And he wants to be with her so she can bitch him and reject him and feel superior or whatever, but in the end, she cannot manipulate him to do what she wants. Jaime is not stupid! And he has ba..ls