Rory and Jess

[HeySandyStrange]

 

I do see what Rory saw in Jess though. He was obviously smart, funny, cute, and well read but also played harmless (albeit illegal) pranks. His constant brooding, inability to talk, and fluctuating moods aside (and Rory did tend to push his faults aside) - I can see why a teenage girl would be interested in someone like him. Teenage hormones are a hell of a thing.

 

You see, I think this is what has always annoyed me. I felt like Rory and Jess's relationship sort of perpetuated the corny trope of "good girl falls for bad boy" or in more realistic terms "good girl falls for jerk she thinks she can change because twu luv". Granted, I know that Jess had his good moments (mostly in his relationship with Luke) and he had reasons for being like he was, but that is how I saw it. I will say that Rory came off as more annoying and clueless to me within the context of the relationship, because I think she truly believed she could change him or that he should want to change for her. The other part of the reason I didn't care for them together because I felt like anvils were dropped on my head the entire time leading up to them getting together, like they have so much in common! they are perfect together! no one understands their love! I'm just stubborn like that.

 

Actually, I'm starting to thing Logan was the most balanced of Rory's boyfriends/love interests. He could be spoiled and entitled, but he didn't have a huge chip on his shoulder (Jess) and he was pretty intelligent and sophisticated (Dean). Funny, because I was pretty indifferent to him during GG's run.

Edited March 24, 2015 by HeySandyStrange

[readster]

That was his mentality for everything, when he showed back up for the car in season 4. Treating Luke like shit, even having the audacity to say that Luke owed HIM money to pay for the broken down car. Saying Luke was a burden to everyone around him Lorelai went up to Jess to call him out on what he said to Luke and Jess's response to her was first to say he said nothing and then "you started it." 

 

And even after that Luke still left him an envelope of money. There was so much Jess had to pay Luke back for, I don't even know years later if he gave him back all. 

 

 

 No kidding, why I will never believe Anna's excuse for not telling Luke about April. "You would have most likely not been there." Really "most likely" after all the crap Luke did even when he was there for Liz and Jess even after Jimmy left which if the timeline works was long before Luke and Anna even were dating. Sure, Anna, Luke was a small town loser and a jerk. Have you met his nephew?

[Aloeonatable]

 

And even after that Luke still left him an envelope of money. There was so much Jess had to pay Luke back for, I don't even know years later if he gave him back all.

 

That was between Luke and Jess. And as I remember, Luke didn't even want the money back. He loved Jess and was proud of him. 

 

 

You see, I think this is what has always annoyed me. I felt like Rory and Jess's relationship sort of perpetuated the corny trope of "good girl falls for bad boy" or in more realistic terms "good girl falls for jerk she thinks she can change because twu luv"

 

I never got the impression that Rory wanted to change Jess. I don't think ASP had that in mind at all. I think Rory accepted Jess for who he was even when he acted horribly. 

 

 

Actually, I'm starting to thing Logan was the most balanced of Rory's boyfriends/love interests. He could be spoiled and entitled, but he didn't have a huge chip on his shoulder (Jess) and he was pretty intelligent and sophisticated (Dean). Funny, because I was pretty indifferent to him during GG's run.

 

Not liking to compare Rory's boyfriends because she had relationships with each of them at different times in her life, I do think Logan was the right boyfriend for her college years. However, I think he was the bad boy who was miraculously changed by the good girl.  

Edited March 24, 2015 by Aloeonatable

[KatWay]

 

I never got the impression that Rory wanted to change Jess. I don't think ASP had that in mind at all. I think Rory accepted Jess for who he was even when he acted horribly.

She did expect Jess to do the things for her that Dean had done and was visibly disappointed when he didn't, and made excuses to others. She liked him, but I totally think she expected him to be less of an asshole when he finally "had" her, because then he just had to be happy. Of course he was still a jerk when he was with her and Rory grew disillusioned with that.

[Artsda]

I think she logically expected a partnership/give&take with Jess that she had with Dean and she got none of that with Jess. She probably did expect him to be less a jerk, but instead all she got was a jerk who made out with her a lot. After they actually got together they didn't have much of a relationship scene wise, there was lots of kissing,  Rory asking him to go to things, Jess saying no/fighting, or Rory waiting around for him, while Jess lied.

 

That was the relationship, we did't even really see her carefree and happy. Which is probably why she bounced back instantly when he left, she shouldn't have been shocked that the bad boy treated her bad. By the end though especially when Dean called her out on the treating her like dirt she finally got it.

[readster]

I think she logically expected a partnership/give&take with Jess that she had with Dean and she got none of that with Jess. She probably did expect him to be less a jerk, but instead all she got was a jerk who made out with her a lot. After they actually got together they didn't have much of a relationship scene wise, there was lots of kissing,  Rory asking him to go to things, Jess saying no/fighting, or Rory waiting around for him, while Jess lied.

 

That was the relationship, we did't even really see her carefree and happy. Which is probably why she bounced back instantly when he left, she shouldn't have been shocked that the bad boy treated her bad. By the end though especially when Dean called her out on the treating her like dirt she finally got it.

 

 I agree on all of this. Rory was expecting the basics of a dating relationship in their late teens. Yet, Jess was about the making out and I'm sure if things would have went differently the night of the party, Rory and Jess would have done it. However, Jess didn't want to do that, he liked how he went about things and couldn't grasp that his "bad boy" tendencies weren't going to get him anywhere in life. Rory and Luke told him before and after he split, they could have helped him with at least getting his GED or making it so his repeating of senior year was as horrible as he played it in his mind. Like I said, as much as I think the Stars Hollow principal was a moron, he did show he cared that Jess would graduate. Of course they were trying to suspend logic for Jess's exit of the series for the spin off to happen, which IMO made Jess look worst than he really was. I knew people like Jess or those who had basically Jess's story and thought they knew better than anyone else. However, I also saw first hand the effort that was put in trying to keep them from flunking out of school or to keep spiraling downhill. With Jess it was: "Oh... sorry we are only going to care now and show it even though we knew for weeks you were skipping and not telling anyone." Did they get the reality check and got their lives together? Oh yes but at the same time they got the shock long before the thought of repeating another year or dismals was even an option. With Jess it was: "Opps, sorry you have to repeat and no we are not going to contact your uncle and of course no one is going to NOT say that you are not in school." 

Edited March 24, 2015 by readster

[HeySandyStrange]

Not liking to compare Rory's boyfriends because she had relationships with each of them at different times in her life, I do think Logan was the right boyfriend for her college years. However, I think he was the bad boy who was miraculously changed by the good girl.  

I can agree to this to an extant. I think all of Rory's guys were good for her--at the time. Dean was her sweet first boyfriend that helped her ease into the dating/social world, Jess was her first really intense relationship, and Logan was her more grown up college relationship. I also think it is very realistic that she didn't end up with any of them. And I do think Rory's and Jess's relationship was over all pretty realistic; they had plenty of chemistry but were just too young and their life experiences/ambitions were to different for it to survive.

 

 

I think she logically expected a partnership/give&take with Jess that she had with Dean and she got none of that with Jess. She probably did expect him to be less a jerk, but instead all she got was a jerk who made out with her a lot.

I seem to recall even Lorelai saying that Rory was judging her problems with Jess on the type of relationship she had with Dean, and that she couldn't expect the to have the same experience with Jess. Which goes back to what I was saying about her being annoying within their relationship; she was naive and entitled enough to think Jess would be different with her because, you know, Rory. To be fair, she was somewhat out of her depth with someone that the issues Jess had, I think.

[readster]

I can agree to this to an extant. I think all of Rory's guys were good for her--at the time. Dean was her sweet first boyfriend that helped her ease into the dating/social world, Jess was her first really intense relationship, and Logan was her more grown up college relationship. I also think it is very realistic that she didn't end up with any of them. And I do think Rory's and Jess's relationship was over all pretty realistic; they had plenty of chemistry but were just too young and their life experiences/ambitions were to different for it to survive.

 

I seem to recall even Lorelai saying that Rory was judging her problems with Jess on the type of relationship she had with Dean, and that she couldn't expect the to have the same experience with Jess. Which goes back to what I was saying about her being annoying within their relationship; she was naive and entitled enough to think Jess would be different with her because, you know, Rory. To be fair, she was somewhat out of her depth with someone that the issues Jess had, I think.

 

 Which I agree with, Rory had her father issues like Jess but she didn't let it hang over her like Lorelai, Richard and Emily. However, she couldn't identify with Jess's relationship with his mom or how he gave Luke the cold shoulder. Especially when people jump through hoops for Rory on things and she took it no problem. I had something similar happen with a relationship at the end of college. My girlfriend didn't know how to handle me taking her out to dinner and movies or just chatting with her on the couch. Her previous exes weren't like that, it was either what they wanted to do or just sleep with them and that was about it. I took care of them, wanted a full relationship and she couldn't deal with that. Sadly, she got involved with on her exes that was very abusive to her and they later got married and divorced because she thought that was what she deserved or just how things WERE suppose to be. Luckily she found a very good guy a few years later, got married, had children and is very happy but sadly she had a problem believing that I wouldn't treat her like her past relationships and that is what ended it in the long run. 

[solotrek]

she was naive and entitled enough to think Jess would be different with her because, you know, Rory. To be fair, she was somewhat out of her depth with someone that the issues Jess had, I think.

 

She probably thought that he'd be different with her because he was different with her. He treated everyone in town like complete crap and Luke like less crap. Which is why Rory asked him why he was nice to her at one point and probably ultimately why she went out with him. There's probably a 0% chance of them dating if he treated her like he treated everyone else. 

 

Of course, the statement sounded childish, but the sentiment was right on. Would you expect any 17 or 18 year old to walk away from a fight started by a sucker punch? I'm not excusing Jess's behavior, but his fighting back was not surprising.

It's his actions before the fight and after the fight that were appalling. If he wasn't such surely jerk after trying to get his girlfriend to the next level when she didn't want it resulting in her running out crying, the fight wouldn't have happened. And then his complete lack of respect to Luke afterwards and taking no ownership in the destruction he was obviously part of.

[Aloeonatable]

 

It's his actions before the fight and after the fight that were appalling. If he wasn't such surely jerk after trying to get his girlfriend to the next level when she didn't want it resulting in her running out crying, the fight wouldn't have happened. And then his complete lack of respect to Luke afterwards and taking no ownership in the destruction he was obviously part of.

He definitely was wrong in trying to have sex with Rory at that party and his reaction to her "no" was understandable knowing what happened earlier in the day. Their biggest problem was lack of communication. That was shown on more than several occasions. Neither one of them could honestly talk to each other about important issues. Plain and simple, Jess didn't trust anyone and that fear caused him to react horribly. 

[solotrek]

He definitely was wrong in trying to have sex with Rory at that party and his reaction to her "no" was understandable knowing what happened earlier in the day. Their biggest problem was lack of communication. That was shown on more than several occasions. Neither one of them could honestly talk to each other about important issues. Plain and simple, Jess didn't trust anyone and that fear caused him to react horribly. 

Lack of communication was a problem for every single person on this show. It was infuriating how much drama would have been avoided with a simple conversation.

[timimouse]

I've always thought that Jess and Logan were very similar and to me that says a lot about what Rory thinks a healthy relationship is. I cannot put Dean into the same category as those two; but I also don't think she knew what she was getting in to with Dean. She saw him, thought he was cute and was smitten. There was really no depth to their relationship. She was smarter and she leant him a couple books here and there. Besides that, all they seemed to do was make-out. Jess and Logan on the other hand she didn't like initially because of their bad-boy persona, but she may have seen a spark of something more and decided to act on that... which is RUBBISH. Because she wasn't herself around either of them after that. Logan was just a richer version of Jess.... both losers IMO. 

Edited March 25, 2015 by timimouse

[Aloeonatable]

Many people (and I included myself) dated different people for different reasons. How else will one learn what one wants out of a mate. Some people might be lucky and find the right guy/girl the first time around, most don't. What I liked most about the Rory/Jess pairing was that it was true to life. They didn't have a happy ending. He grew up and changed, but to me it was more because of Luke's than Rory's influence. 

[amensisterfriend]

ITA with those who were indifferent to/ambivalent about Logan at the time but have come to see him as Rory's---and maybe the show's in general---most healthy and compatible relationship. Then again, that's a REALLY low bar :) 

 

And I've come around to agreeing with the majority of criticisms about Jess and Jess/Rory for reasons I've already rambled about.

Two minor points, though:

 

1) While I, too, generally haaaaaate the 'good girl magically changes and saves bad boy' trope for a variety of reasons, I actually like what the show did here, even if it was just a decision necessitated by MV's exit from the show: they DIDN'T have Rory magically change or save him. No matter how much he may have cared for her, their relationship wasn't enough to fix his problems and suddenly put him on the 'right' path. He still made poor choices, struggled to communicate like a normal person, had a lot of anger, was chronically truant from school, etc. Jess needed to work on himself as an individual before he could be in a healthy relationship with someone else, and, intentionally or not, I actually think the show did a nice job of illustrating that point. 

 

2) It's true that Rory seemed to lose some of her heretofore quiet strength while she was with Jess (then again, in the GG-verse, nearly everyone became weaker and more pathetic in relationships!), but even as someone who's become more of a Rory/Logan supporter, I do think there was a certain natural comfort level Rory seemed to have around Jess that she didn't have around any of her other boyfriends. And I'm pretty confident that the reasons for that have very little to do with the writing and almost everything to do with the fact that the actors were dating in real life and had a rapport and chemistry that Alexis Bledel just couldn't fake all that convincingly with other guys :) 

[Aloeonatable]

 

1) While I, too, generally haaaaaate the 'good girl magically changes and saves bad boy' trope for a variety of reasons, I actually like what the show did here, even if it was just a decision necessitated by MV's exit from the show: they DIDN'T have Rory magically change or save him. No matter how much he may have cared for her, their relationship wasn't enough to fix his problems and suddenly put him on the 'right' path. He still made poor choices, struggled to communicate like a normal person, had a lot of anger, was chronically truant from school, etc. Jess needed to work on himself as an individual before he could be in a healthy relationship with someone else, and, intentionally or not, I actually think the show did a nice job of illustrating that point.

 

You said so well what I was trying to say. Thanks!

[readster]

Lack of communication was a problem for every single person on this show. It was infuriating how much drama would have been avoided with a simple conversation.

Complete word to that. So many times it was: "Oh no!" "I can't handle this reveal, I can't tell anyone!" YES YOU CAN! It was like the entire GG universe had PSTD happen to them and figured secrets were better than talking about anything. Including the basics. 

[Artsda]

 

She saw him, thought he was cute and was smitten. There was really no depth to their relationship. She was smarter and she leant him a couple books here and there. Besides that, all they seemed to do was make-out. Jess and Logan on the other hand she didn't like initially because of their bad-boy persona, but she may have seen a spark of something more and decided to act on that...

I don't think we saw Dean/Rory making out that much especially compared to Jess/Rory. We saw a lot with Jess/Rory making out, being caught by others making out it showed more because we saw them do nothing else really when alone.

 

Dean/Rory, especially in the early seasons we saw hanging out at home, watching movies, food nights with Lorelai, eating at Lukes, going out with Lane, town events, town meetings, we used to see them talk about nothing  and ramble. There was substance and just easy going with them, Like Rory told Lane around the end of S4, she didn't appreciate it when she had it.

[Aloeonatable]

 

I don't think we saw Dean/Rory making out that much especially compared to Jess/Rory. We saw a lot with Jess/Rory making out, being caught by others making out it showed more because we saw them do nothing else really when alone.

I agree. Except for their first kiss and the standing (what in the world was that!) make out scene in There's the Rub, when did we see them making out. I don't even know if they kissed in Miss Patty's before they fell asleep. As for Rory and Jess, they were definitely physically attracted to one another and had a hard time not showing their affection. After all, ASP did say that Jess was Rory's sexual awakening. 

 

Rory and Jess discussed books, watched movies and seemed to do what most young people their age did. We even saw Jess at one town meeting ;-)

[junienmomo]

 (then again, in the GG-verse, nearly everyone became weaker and more pathetic in relationships!)

It disturbs me occasionally to recognize this, yet know that the showrunners were a married couple. Did they feel superior to others, or were they working out something themselves?

[readster]

It disturbs me occasionally to recognize this, yet know that the showrunners were a married couple. Did they feel superior to others, or were they working out something themselves?

 

 It is shocking to me at times how writers and producers of both TV and books write such horrible relationships and then are asked: "Aren't you happily married?" They then reply: "Oh yes, I never trade it for the world but happy couples doesn't equal drama." Oh give me a break! Trust me as someone who has been married for getting close to a decade, every day is not sunshine, rainbows and unicorns flying over them. Have I seen couples who rarely and I do mean RARELY fight? Oh sure but trust me, I've heard many stories from parents, friends and more about how every day can either being a blessing or a curse. So don't tell me the only drama is keeping secrets, cheating, affairs and lies. Couples get in fights because of how to handle raising the kids, one person siding with their parents or forgetting to buy bananas. 

[solotrek]

 It is shocking to me at times how writers and producers of both TV and books write such horrible relationships and then are asked: "Aren't you happily married?" They then reply: "Oh yes, I never trade it for the world but happy couples doesn't equal drama." Oh give me a break! Trust me as someone who has been married for getting close to a decade, every day is not sunshine, rainbows and unicorns flying over them. Have I seen couples who rarely and I do mean RARELY fight? Oh sure but trust me, I've heard many stories from parents, friends and more about how every day can either being a blessing or a curse. So don't tell me the only drama is keeping secrets, cheating, affairs and lies. Couples get in fights because of how to handle raising the kids, one person siding with their parents or forgetting to buy bananas. 

Jason Katims and his crew seemed to be the only people who know how to write normal relationships (based on what I saw from FNL and some of Parenthood) for TV.

 

ASP and her husband wrote borderline abusive relationships be it physical or emotional. It never crossed the line, but the line was never that far off.

 

Though it does kind of work with Jess and Rory. Jess was a really troubled kid. Rory was both too willing and not willing to compromise in a relationship with a guy who needed more help than he could give. Everything followed the path it probably would have in real life.

[readster]

 Rory and Jess's relationship at least was realistic from a normal teen couple with Jess's constant attitude and views on life and Rory being sexually attracted outside of emotionally attracted to him. Their relationship made sense and so did Rory and Dean early on. However, for all the adult couples, what the Ps viewed as "good drama" was more along the lines of abusive and at times you wanted the couples to break up.

[timimouse]

Jason Katims and his crew seemed to be the only people who know how to write normal relationships (based on what I saw from FNL and some of Parenthood) for TV.

 

This may be slightly off topic here but I never thought about this until you mentioned it and I definitely agree. I really admired Eric and Tami's relationship on FNL as it wasn't perfect, but solid. And the "fights" that they had were realistic... as mentioned before about raising their children (such as dealing with their teenage daughter's rebellion) and other everyday problems. I didn't find it boring for TV. More drama doesn't always mean greater ratings. Same with Parenthood. I'm not even a parent but could appreciate the realism of that show.

 

Whilst I do think that Jess could've treated Rory a lot better, I think he was introduced for her to learn that not everybody is going to dote on you the way Dean did. She needed that "bad boy" in her dating history. I do think he was a wasted character though. They could've done more with Jess as a character and Milo as an actor.

Edited April 8, 2015 by timimouse

[readster]

This may be slightly off topic here but I never thought about this until you mentioned it and I definitely agree. I really admired Eric and Tami's relationship on FNL as it wasn't perfect, but solid. And the "fights" that they had were realistic... as mentioned before about raising their children (such as dealing with their teenage daughter's rebellion) and other everyday problems. I didn't find it boring for TV. More drama doesn't always mean greater ratings. Same with Parenthood. I'm not even a parent but could appreciate the realism of that show.

 

Whilst I do think that Jess could've treated Rory a lot better, I think he was introduced for her to learn that not everybody is going to dote on you the way Dean did. She needed that "bad boy" in her dating history. I do think he was a wasted character though. They could've done more with Jess as a character and Milo as an actor.

 

 That was what the spin off was suppose to be for Jess but as we know, the show didn't happen.

[lottiedottie]

 

ASP and her husband wrote borderline abusive relationships be it physical or emotional. It never crossed the line, but the line was never that far off.

 

Can you expound on that, because I don't see the abusiveness. Granted, I don't watch the show all that closely (It's usually playing while I do something else) I find some of the relationships totally annoying, but not necessarily abusive. 

[JayInChicago]

I'm not sure if I can think of an example from Rory and Jess, but Dean was written as a stalker at times, and Lorelai was played by Lauren to seem somewhat physically afraid of Luke occasionally. I can't think of examples off the top of my head, but Luke was over the top menacing at least a couple of times during the show's run. 

[Artsda]

I really don't think Dean ever came off as a stalker, he didn't behave any differently than say Rory showing up at his door pretending to be a girl scout to his sister and then running away. Or all the times she went into the market to look for him, or stood in front of the market looking at him. 

 

Jess had issues, but he also never saw that he'd really abuse her. He treated her not good and was a jerk, like Luke at time but neither I'd ever think would be abusive. 

[JayInChicago]

Dean was pretty excessive. All those letters to Rory while she was in DC? Rory had a like a ream of paper's worth of letters, and it was kind of implied she didn't write him once. Or all the jokes Lorelai made about "how many times did Dean call?" And the answer would be like 7-13 times or whatever.  His reaction to her not saying she loved him back was really odd too, kind of off putting.

[Artsda]

Rory was writing Dean back, just not the one she tried to write Jess and she was gone for 6-8 weeks. A lot of letters written wasn't a shock. I don't think writing letters to his girlfriend while she was gone for 2 months isn't  a sign of him being bad/stalkery/abusive. 

[readster]

I don't either it was more of Dean coming off as not wanting to speak up until the entire dance marathon where he finally had it. Which, I could understand, it was about making Jess jealous and Dean finally couldn't take it anymore. I think if he would have stopped being so angry about what he knew was true or Lorelai would have just told him to either speak up or tell Rory to stop messing around and deal with it. It would have been a different situation. Not singing: "You are the wind beneath my wings." 

[JayInChicago]

It could be an unpopular opinion, but I have always read the way Rory holds the bunch of letters and ends up writing to Jess to suggest she hadn't or had barely responded to Dean. 

[amensisterfriend]

Since some posters here have touched on the degree to which Jess and Luke are or aren't similar, I'd love to hear people's thoughts on this:

 

http://www.bustle.com/articles/73490-7-ways-gilmore-girls-jess-mariano-luke-danes-are-basically-the-same-person

 

I'm not sure if I can think of an example from Rory and Jess, but Dean was written as a stalker at times, and Lorelai was played by Lauren to seem somewhat physically afraid of Luke occasionally. I can't think of examples off the top of my head, but Luke was over the top menacing at least a couple of times during the show's run.

 

Lord knows I'm the first to complain about how most GG males were written and AS-P's rather odd ideas of what's romantically appealing ('cause don't all women just LOVE perpetually angry men prone to jealousy and temper tantrums?!), but I don't think she ever intended any of the male characters to come off as anywhere near abusive. The writing and acting for Luke, Jess, Dean etc. were just sometimes annoyingly over the top to the point where they seemed to have clinical disorders, but I think AS-P thought most of that stuff was comedic and/or compellingly emotionally 'intense.'  

[JayInChicago]

well, like when Luke was arrested for beating up his not-really-wife's (who he had all but dumped) probable lover's car, or when he punches Christopher or fights Christopher in the town square, or when he threatens Dean? 

[amensisterfriend]

Yeah, I'm the first to say that Luke was in desperate need of anger management, and I've always held the UO that his flaws make him soneone I'd steer far clear of in real life, but I just meant that I don't think AS-P *intended* for us to view their behavior as "abusive." The writing was too often exaGGerated, and people like SP had the tendency to overact, so the male characters' behavior often came across as worse to many of us than I'm guessing AS-P et al. intended for it to be. . 

[readster]

Yeah, I'm the first to say that Luke was in desperate need of anger management, and I've always held the UO that his flaws make him soneone I'd steer far clear of in real life, but I just meant that I don't think AS-P *intended* for us to view their behavior as "abusive." The writing was too often exaGGerated, and people like SP had the tendency to overact, so the male characters' behavior often came across as worse to many of us than I'm guessing AS-P et al. intended for it to be. . 

 

 Oh I completely agree, especially if you see what all the male actors have done since. Sadly it translated to angry or having issues that would border on abusive or people you don't want to know IRL.

[JayInChicago]

Amensisterfriend, I somehow misread what you wrote. I agree. 

Luke was generally a good guy with a heart of gold, but he had some serious problems as well. The incident I have the most problem with is him going to punch Chris in the face. He relatively calmly consults a map and has a 1-2 hour drive (i don't really know new england very well lol) where he could cool off and turn around. But it was so puzzlingly important for ASP/DP to show us that he was gonna go punch Chris in the face in a cold, calculated manner.

 

i have gotten us WAYYYY of subject.

[amensisterfriend]

It's funny, because a lot of fans who adore Luke and are apt to excuse what I consider pretty egregious behavior from him loathe Jess, whileas I tend to cut Jess more slack than I do Luke. (I hope it goes without saying that I think any and all opinions about these characters are equally valid, so I hope I'm not unintentionally coming across as implying otherwise!)

 

Jess was so much younger, he never had a relationship with his father and was "raised" by Liz---who can most charitably be described as a flaky, inconsistent mother and less charitably (by me!) as a complete disaster, subjected to a string of Liz's awful male companions, shipped off to Stars Hollow (a major perceived/actual rejection), etc. And while I personally hate that he smoked and cut school and was, in typically exaggerated GG fashion, often much ruder and more surly than he should have been (I never blamed Lorelai for being absolutely horrified by his treatment of her!), by normal world teenager standards Jess really wasn't all that awful. Luke, though, was ostensibly an adult, but his temper was still just as awful as Jess's---if not even worse. He has/had a much easier life than his nephew but is relentleslsy bitter and angry anyway. He was arguably an even worse communicator than his nephew.  Jess had things he was interested in and from which he derived genuine joy (reading, writing, music, etc.), while Luke was a generally enthusiasm-squashing killjoy who wasn't into much of anything himself and enjoyed putting down what others were into. And by the end of the series, I actually thought Jess had evolved far more than Luke or any of the main characters.  

 

But I think what it really comes down to for me is that I always just saw so much more chemistry and connection and even commonality between Rory/Jess than Lorelai/Luke. And I thought the Rory/Jess relationship played out really realistically and poignantly---as we discussed here before, it wasn't the typical 'good girl saves bad boy' trope, because in the end Jess wasn't saved by Rory at all---his problems weren't magically erased by his love for her, and ultimately he had to go off on his own to save HIMSELF. Their relationship was unhealthy (as is typical of GG "romances"!), but I never doubted that there were real feelings there.

 

I actually kind of struggle with this, because, honestly, just as I wanted to like Luke/Lorelai but couldn't, I didn't want to like Rory/Jess! I'm not generally a fan of the 'rude, 'cool' rebel jerk/good girl' trope in general, Jess's obnoxiousness really does make me cringe sometimes, I think on paper she'd be a better match with Logan, I agree with those who feel Rory should have been more assertive about how she deserved to be treated, and, sadly, I am probably WAY too old to care about a high school romance :) But whenever I rewatch thos episodes, I just see a passion and natural connection-on-every-level between them that I don't see in the show's other couples (other than sometimes Lorelai/Christopher). 

 

This is still one of my favorites: 

 

Edited April 15, 2015 by amensisterfriend

[cheezwhiz346]

It's funny, because a lot of fans who adore Luke and are apt to excuse what I consider pretty egregious behavior from him loathe Jess, whileas I tend to cut Jess more slack than I do Luke. (I hope it goes without saying that I think any and all opinions about these characters are equally valid, so I hope I'm not unintentionally coming across as implying otherwise!)

 

But I think what it really comes down to for me is that I always just saw so much more chemistry and connection and even commonality between Rory/Jess than Lorelai/Luke. And I thought the Rory/Jess relationship played out really realistically and poignantly---as we discussed here before, it wasn't the typical 'good girl saves bad boy' trope, because in the end Jess wasn't saved by Rory at all---his problems weren't magically erased by his love for her, and ultimately he had to go off on his own to save HIMSELF. Their relationship was unhealthy (as is typical of GG "romances"!), but I never doubted that there were real feelings there.

I just want to comment on this part here because I think you really get at something about differing opinions people might have about Luke and Jess. I don't dislike Jess as a character; but I definitely enjoy watching Luke more, and I think it has less to do with who either of them are as characters and more to do with how they interact with the Gilmore girls. Something about the way Rory was with Jess (even though I totally agree they had great chemistry) just really irked me. I thought the way she acted with him and how she defended him to her mom and how she was in denial about her feelings for him, etc. etc. made sense, but I really had no interest in watching it, especially with as long as it went on. And with Luke and Lorelai (though I'm more a fan of the potential of the two of them than the execution) I just didn't feel that way. And so I tend to be less sympathetic towards Jess in a way that's unfair to Jess as a character, because my reaction has more to do with Rory and how she was around him/in that relationship than to Jess himself. (I hope that made sense; I'm lacking sleep and that felt a little circuitous. :))

[Aloeonatable]

 

And so I tend to be less sympathetic towards Jess in a way that's unfair to Jess as a character, because my reaction has more to do with Rory and how she was around him/in that relationship than to Jess himself. (I hope that made sense; I'm lacking sleep and that felt a little circuitous. :))

 

As a sometimes Jess apologist, I do get what you are saying. Rory was, often times, a doormat with Jess, and Logan as well. She let both of them get away with bad behavior. At least she was consistent. ;-) It seems once Rory becomes romantically involved, she loses her backbone. Before she and Jess got together she called him out on some of his rude or thoughtless behavior. The episodes, The Ins and Outs of Inns and Lost and Found have scenes where Rory confronts Jess about causing Luke grief and being rude to Lorelai. 

[desertflower]

I just watched the episode where Jess comes to dinner at Emily's with the black eye. And man, I can't stand Rory in that whole scene. This is one time I had to side with Jess. It's true he didn't have to be so secretive but he actually tries to be civil to Emily (for Jess, anyway) and keep the peace at the dinner table, but Rory just keeps nagging him until he storms off. She's as much to blame for ruining dinner and no one really acknowledges that.

[amensisterfriend]

ITA! That's the thing---whenever they DID finally have Rory trying to be 'assertive' and take-no-BS with regards to Jess, it was almost always at exactly the wrong times and in the wrong ways. Have I mentioned that the GG writers suck when it comes to writing relationships?! 

 

I did love what Rory said to Jess after graduating re thinking she loved him but knowing it was time to move on. That scene still gives me chills. 

Edited April 18, 2015 by amensisterfriend

[Aloeonatable]

 

I did love what Rory said to Jess after graduating re thinking she loved him but knowing it was time to move on. That scene still gives me chills.

 

Great scene and so necessary. 

 

I was thinking about how much Rory would not want to talk to Lorelai about her problems with Jess. One instance comes to mind, when Rory wouldn't talk to Lorelai about what happened in Kyle's bedroom. I even think she said she was tired of talking about it. It had to do with missing her prom. Another time was when Jess came back to Stars Hollow and and the girls saw him sleeping in his car. Rory didn't want to do anything about it, she avoided the situation. Does anyone think she didn't want her mom to say "I told you so," when it came to being in a relationship with someone like Jess? Thoughts?

[BkWurm1]

I'm not sure if I can think of an example from Rory and Jess, but Dean was written as a stalker at times, and Lorelai was played by Lauren to seem somewhat physically afraid of Luke occasionally. I can't think of examples off the top of my head, but Luke was over the top menacing at least a couple of times during the show's run. 

 

 

well, like when Luke was arrested for beating up his not-really-wife's (who he had all but dumped) probable lover's car, or when he punches Christopher or fights Christopher in the town square, or when he threatens Dean? 

I just have to say I heartily disagree that Lorelai ever acted like she was physically afraid of Luke.  She adored his rants, she encouraged them.  Luke getting into fights with a car or Christopher was entirely separate of any thing to do with him and Lorelai.  She was wary after they were together of forcing him to do what she wanted and that change in their dynamic - her fear of pushing him until he rejected her - had her acting weird but it was about emotional not physical fears.

 

Rory and Jess remain to me the relationship that had no hope of surviving the first time around but I see oodles of potential for them to reconnect when they were older. 

 

While they were together I did appreciate that Rory eventually regrew her backbone.  When he disappeared, it hurt her, but she didn't let it derail her life or goals.

[amensisterfriend]

For those of us who like Rory/Jess, I found this youtube video of someone ranking what he/she thought was their top 15 moments. (Usually the music in the background of these things bugs the heck out of me, but in this case I think the song fits them fairly well!) 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qI4HlMURFF0

 

Do you agree with the moments he/she chose? Would you put your own top Jess/Rory moments in a different order? Do I really need to get a life? (Feel free to ignore that last one!) 

Edited May 8, 2015 by amensisterfriend

[amensisterfriend]

Part 2: 

 

Here's another one...and, no, I don't make these! There's a lot of overlap here, because, let's face it, they didn't have THAT many great moments ;) But somehow even my jaded heart still sighs a bit over their chemistry---I almost wish I didn't see it as strongly as I do! Why can't I feel this way about the far more popular and canonically end game Luke/Lorelai?! :) 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06sFy13fPFA

[amensisterfriend]

Here's a question for you guys: Which of Jess's post-S3 appearances did you enjoy the most??? 

[Taryn74]

All of them!

 

Not an acceptable answer?  Darn.

 

It's hard to choose just one, it really is.  But I guess I'd have to say his scenes at Truncheon Books, because he and Rory ended on such a high note.  NO!  I take that back.  The scenes in LCSHF and LWF,TWT because he and Luke just dropped all walls and had a great relationship-repairing moment.

 

Ugh.  Both of the above, I can't choose between them.

[amensisterfriend]

All of them!

 

Ha! You totally stole my answer ;) 

 

I love when he provides Rory with a much-needed reality check in LMHYBRO, but I also agree that the stealth self-help book reading and subsequent sweet moment with Luke is a classic. And sleeping in his car during A Family Matter tugs at my weird little heart. 

[Aloeonatable]

I'm with you two. My favorite post season 3 episode had to be LWFTWT. The good-bye scene with Luke is probably one of my favorite all time GG scenes. I even like the scenes with Rory when he begs her to run away and she tells him no. So believable and well acted on MV's part. 

[alexa]

Though Jess isn't really to blame, I hate that Rory missed her mom's graduation to go see him in NY.  One of those GG moments that leave me unsatisfied with an episode.  I like that Rory explained it all, felt sufficiently horrible, etc, but it kind of reminds me of Chris' interruptions in their lives.  And Rory and Lorelai can't get that graduation moment back, so it influences my opinion about Rory and Jess.