How To Speculate w/o Spoilers: Hiding the Ball

[possibilities]

What was Isaac's ex doing at Anna's apartment? Her being Isaac's therapist is very unethical, and her showing up at Anna's place is even moreso.

[Lady Calypso]

2 hours ago, possibilities said:

What was Isaac's ex doing at Anna's apartment? Her being Isaac's therapist is very unethical, and her showing up at Anna's place is even moreso.

Extremely unethical, for sure. I figured out that Isaac's therapist was his ex about the end of their first scene. I think she's there to tell Annalise that Isaac can't be her therapist without going into details. Maybe she's there to let Annalise know that her therapy with Isaac is compromising his sobriety....or she's there to threaten Annalise to drop him as a therapist. 

I wondered briefly if she'd somehow be part of the flashforward, or maybe she'll be a more major character for the second half of season 4.

I'm wondering why they're even bothering trying to do two mysteries at the same time. They promoted the mystery parts as Where is Laurel's baby, and though that may still be a question, they've diverted to Whose Blood is On The Elevator, Who Got Shot/Killed at C&G, Why Is Asher In Jail, etc. So basically, what they promoted with the Big Question doesn't matter because there's about four other questions they have now included, as they haven't gone back to Laurel's baby since episode 2. 

Plus, I'm way more interested in the C&G mystery portion.  

I'm getting the feeling that they'll bring back the baby in the next episode. I'm wondering if the baby is still alive.Or, if the baby is dead, I'm getting the feeling that the baby may not even be in the hospital. I don't know why, but I'm wondering if the baby will be revealed to be with Connor. I'm willing to bet that Connor is involved in the Annalise's apartment mystery. 

But honestly, I'm really not caring all that much because they're throwing too much stuff into the mystery that it's impossible to guess what's going on. 

[secnarf]

I didn't think Isaac's ex-wife was his therapist. I mean, it is clear that she is a therapist, and they probably met through work/school, but it struck me as more him talking to an old friend or someone who knew him well. I don't think he is paying her to listen to him.

[Lady Calypso]

46 minutes ago, secnarf said:

I didn't think Isaac's ex-wife was his therapist. I mean, it is clear that she is a therapist, and they probably met through work/school, but it struck me as more him talking to an old friend or someone who knew him well. I don't think he is paying her to listen to him.

Maybe she's not his official therapist in that sense, but he was definitely using her as a way to communicate about his feelings, to get her opinion, which does seem like he was using her as his therapist in a way that is definitely unhealthy. Especially talking about their daughter together, since she is probably also going through a grief process of her own. Though, while she seems to be processing better, he's falling apart in front of his ex wife, who knows his pain all too well and it seems to imply that their daughter's death and his addiction/suicidal tendencies, is what split them up in the first place.

[secnarf]

18 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

Maybe she's not his official therapist in that sense, but he was definitely using her as a way to communicate about his feelings, to get her opinion, which does seem like he was using her as his therapist in a way that is definitely unhealthy. Especially talking about their daughter together, since she is probably also going through a grief process of her own. Though, while she seems to be processing better, he's falling apart in front of his ex wife, who knows his pain all too well and it seems to imply that their daughter's death and his addiction/suicidal tendencies, is what split them up in the first place.

I guess it depends what you consider a "therapist". I could see a person in Isaac's position doing all of those things with their ex-wife even if the ex-wife was not a therapist, and it would still be unhealthy for everyone involved.

I just wouldn't go so far as to say that she is his therapist, in that they don't have set appointments or treatment goals, and he is not paying her. He's more using her as a sounding board and someone to confide in, rather than her guiding him towards a treatment goal.

[Milaxx]

4 hours ago, possibilities said:

What was Isaac's ex doing at Anna's apartment? Her being Isaac's therapist is very unethical, and her showing up at Anna's place is even moreso.

 

1 hour ago, secnarf said:

I didn't think Isaac's ex-wife was his therapist. I mean, it is clear that she is a therapist, and they probably met through work/school, but it struck me as more him talking to an old friend or someone who knew him well. I don't think he is paying her to listen to him.

I was just going to say that. I think he talks to her more as a ex wife who happens to also be a therapist rather than his actual therapist.

I'm also wondering the specifics of what his issue/ trigger. Clearly it has to do with the daughter. At first I thought it was suicide since Wes’s death was ruled a suicide. Then I remembered Isaac had a drug problem and that earlier ep where he’s talking on the phone to someone saying something like “ you’ll have to stop calling if you’re gonna act like this”  ( I’d have to rewatch for the exact wording). So now I’m wondering if his daughter is strung out & it was in part due to his addictions that she got hooked in the first place. I’ve heard parents of addicted describe it as feeling like their child died when they hit rock bottom & they had to let them go.

[Keepitmoving]

I still think the only reason Michaela is asking about is "he" dead is because someone has already been killed at her job, so in her state she's expecting more death to follow. I mean why not? Hence, her crying on the Dr. and talking about everyone always dying around them. 

[possibilities]

Maybe Laurel's dad is dead and the baby is in the NICU.

Oliver did not look particularly devastated when he was waiting to be questioned. Michaela is very shaken, Annalise is traumatized. Laurel is freaking out.

[Milaxx]

I wonder if the "he" Michaela is asking about was beat by Asher really badly and because of their past Michaela just assumes they are dead. I mean Asher beat the stuffing out of Connor and didn't have a lick of blood on himself. I  can't help but think think Michaela's "is he dead" is a red herring.

I wonder what happens at AK is either someone hiding the baby  from Laurel's dad like Connor or Laurel''s dad kidnapping the baby. 

As for Oliver, maybe he does that Asher brand of stoic shock.  Oliver has only heard about the murders the K5 did. He's never been actively involved in one before.

[Lady Calypso]

So, this last cliffhanger didn't really answer any questions, besides confirming that either someone at C&G survived long enough to get into surgery, or the person on the elevator survived long enough to get into surgery. Since we still have NO IDEA what's going on at either crime scene, they have room to insert more surprising twists, or whatever.

Now, as for Connor, the person I am most concerned with in his safety and wellbeing, I am getting a bad feeling about him. Not the dead kind of feel, but the using him as the finale cliffhanger to propel the next half's mystery, even though they still have the deal with the fallout of their several mysteries here. Connor's way too happy, he's too comfortable with his boyfriend and his job that I'm fully expecting him to play a major role in the finale because of it. On this show, any semblance of happiness comes crashing down. Look at Laurel, for example. She may get to take down her father, but it is leading to a whole lot of violence and angst. Asher's in jail, Laurel delivered her baby two months early, Oliver's a witness to the crime, and Michaela's a damn wreck. 

I've been worrying about Connor all season, but I think whatever happens to him will be because of Laurel's father and Dominic somehow. I could be very wrong, and maybe it's nothing, but I can't forget that Dominic saw Connor run out of the house when it exploded. He even told Laurel's father that there were complications, but Wes was dead. Combine that with Connor being on TV twice now, working for Annalise, and with Laurel's plan to upset her father, Connor may be caught in the crossfire somehow. 

I also suspect that Michaela was maybe with Laurel and not Asher or Oliver at C&G. I get the feeling that she wouldn't just be released to go to the hospital, and the only named witness was Oliver. Or, the only other explanation is that Oliver told Michaela to get out of there before the police arrived and he stayed behind. Which would make quite a bit of sense. We also need to get to Isaac meeting Laurel and Michaela at some point, so I suspect he'll show up at the C&G party. I just expected that he met them much sooner. 

I still believe it's Simon who is shot and now in the hospital. I believe those two events are correlated, and Laurel is the one with the blood in the elevator, Annalise probably had to deliver herself, and the blood she's washing off. Though where in the world is she showering if she's not at her apartment? 

Like I've stated, they decided to cram too many mysteries in for this half season. Remember when they presented the mystery portion right at the beginning as Where Is Laurel's Baby? Well, now I don't think I care as much as Where's Connor, or Who Got Shot, or What Did Asher Do? The narrator for the previews for the next episode phrase the real question very well: What Happened That Night? 

[Keepitmoving]

Ok, based on that promo, Frank has his hands around Connor's neck throwing up against a walk.

While Mickey gives slips Asher a card, like one of those pass keys you need to get into your office building. Or, should I say, it's Teagan or one of the other partner's pass key that she slips to him. But you can definitely see her slip it to him on the sly and he puts it in the inner breast pocket if his suit. So, I conclude that Asher is in jail for breaking and entering or just  plain getting caught stealing that key. Which Mickey stole because she lies like running water and I think she can pick pocket too which yes Asher, it was taught to her in the "home" she grew up in. I mean, the first time we meet her mother, she's lying about cancer.  That being said, she'll always be my favorite, but she's got some side eyeing ways. I still think that I saw her stealing at that outdoor mall or whatever it was last season when she ran into Wes. I know she looked to me like she slipped something in her pocket before she noticed Wes.

[Milaxx]

Updating my choices after this week's ep.

 Definitely Safe (by safe I mean alive): AK, Asher, Michaela, Isaac, Oliver, Bonnie, Frank, & Laurel   

Probably safe: Denver

On the bubble: *The baby, , Jorge & Soroya 

 High probability of death: Simon, Tegan, Nate & possibly Connor -

Nate has been weirdly yoda like this season. Playing all sides of the fence. Talking reason to Bonnie, AK, Laurel at various times. Telling them all to not play dirty. I even think he turned down AK's offer of sex when she came to his house after being spooked at the hotel. Simon finally has a stotline with this whole DACA subplot and being set up to take the fall for stealing Tegan's key card. I want to believe Oliver doesn't look upset enough for it to be Connor, but once a showrunner is willing to off a major character like Wes, you can't take anything for granted. I mostly believe PN isn't ready to kill off Connor, but not 100%

 

Wild theory:

Isaac's wife is crazy. She drugs then kidnaps Laurel's baby and that's where the blood in AK's hotel room comes from. Isaac may be tripping and depressed over AK, but I think the limit of his dysfunction, but wifey is manipulative and dangerous. Blood from C & G is whoever is flatlining in the flashforward.

Edited November 11, 2017 by Milaxx

[possibilities]

We also know Bonnie is alive.

[Keepitmoving]

There is no way they brought on that actress from OZ and Law & Order Criminal Intent to just play Izaac's wife. She has got to have something hands-on to do with that blood. She looks sane, but I'm thinking she's not alright. We're led to believe that Izaac is about to snap/relapse, when it might be her. But this is PN, he brought on Brett Butler, Brett fucking Butler and underused her so...

[Milaxx]

1 hour ago, possibilities said:

We also know Bonnie is alive.

oops, fixed

19 minutes ago, Keepitmoving said:

There is no way they brought on that actress from OZ and Law & Order Criminal Intent to just play Izaac's wife. She has got to have something hands-on to do with that blood. She looks sane, but I'm thinking she's not alright. We're led to believe that Izaac is about to snap/relapse, when it might be her. But this is PN, he brought on Brett Butler, Brett fucking Butler and underused her so...

I'm getting major crazy from her.

[Keepitmoving]

Michaela's face in the latest promo looks like she's been burned or scratched up around her right eye, something I didn't notice in the flash forward scene with the Dr at the hospital. But can definitely see it in the promo of her screaming for help at the office party, WTH? Yeah, she had to be in some kind of struggle.

Edited November 11, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[harmfulhazards]

4 hours ago, Keepitmoving said:

Michaela's face in the latest promo looks like she's been burned or scratched up around her right eye, something I didn't notice in the flash forward scene with the Dr at the hospital. But can definitely see it in the promo of her screaming for help at the office party, WTH? Yeah, she had to be in some kind of struggle.

Wasn't it a blood splatter as if she was standing near to someone who was shot?

[SunnyBeBe]

Yeah, I suspect Isaac's wife of being super crazy.  I am suspect of all things she says really. I do wonder WHY Isaac consults with her and asks for her input if she's certifiable though.  For awhile, I wondered if she really existed.  I mean, maybe, she was a figment of his imagination. lol   But, since Annalise saw her, I suppose that she's real.  But, I don't believe that their daughter committed suicide.  Something more sinister, perhaps?  Maybe, she's the one who is dead and Isaac is the one who killed her? Maybe, Isaac really IS INSANE!  

I really hope that Annalise is not an innocent bystander or witness again and is falsely charged with murder.......please....enough already.  I'm sick of Annalise being a traumatized victim.  WHY can't they get past that theme? The show took a nose dive when they started that crap and it hasn't been good since. (Started when Annalise had the gunshot.)  

Edited November 12, 2017 by SunnyBeBe

[Milaxx]

On 11/11/2017 at 4:57 AM, harmfulhazards said:

Wasn't it a blood splatter as if she was standing near to someone who was shot?

Yes there is blood on her clothes but no where else. I can't figure out what's happening with her face though. Her makeup is smudged but she looks difference. I realize she's been doing a different look this season. sort of really natural face with a berry lip, so makeup it is just smudged mascara. I just can't put my finger on it.

3 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

.......    

I really hope that Annalise is not an innocent bystander or witness again and is falsely charged with murder.......please....enough already.  I'm sick of Annalise being a traumatized victim.  WHY can't they get past that theme? The show took a nose dive when they started that crap and it hasn't been good since. (Started when Annalise had the gunshot.)  

I don't think AK will be charged. but I do get the feeling she'll once again be caught in the middle of whatever is happening and further traumatized. 

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

Yes there is blood on her clothes but no where else. I can't figure out what's happening with her face though. Her makeup is smudged but she looks difference. I realize she's been doing a different look this season. sort of really natural face with a berry lip, so makeup it is just smudged mascara. I just can't put my finger on it.

No, in the promo they showed at the end of the last episode, there was blood on her face at the office party. There was clearly blood around, under her right eye while she's screaming for help. But it also looked like she was burned or scratched, maybe some of the blood looked really dark and it's not a bruise. But it looked like a bruise to me.  Now by the time we get to the flash forward with the Dr. in the hospital, when she turns around I don't see any blood on her face  just her clothes, because I guess at some point she or someone cleaned her face off. 

I'm still waiting for them to connect the dots, between her and the Dr. How does he know her name at that hospital? Hell, what is he even doing at the hospital period? Up to now he knows neither Laurel, Frank nor Michaela.

Edited November 12, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[Milaxx]

5 minutes ago, Keepitmoving said:

No, in the promo they showed at the end of the last episode, there was blood on her face at the office party. There was clearly blood around, under her right eye while she's screaming for help. But it also looked like she was burned or scratched, maybe some of the blood looked really dark and it's not a bruise. But it looked like a bruise to me.  Now by the time we get to the flash forward with the Dr. in the hospital, when she turns around I don't see any blood on her face  just her clothes, because I guess at some point she or someone cleaned her face off. 

I'm still waiting for them to connect the dots, between her and the Dr. How does he know her name at that hospital? Hell, what is he even doing at the hospital period? Up to now he knows neither Laurel, Frank nor Michaela.

I'll have to watch again and try and figure that out. As for Isaac, it appears Frank called him. IIRC Frank meets hi and they go see Laurel then Isaac is walking to somewhere and see Micheal but at first thinks it's AK. I guess it's possible that  AK talked about them in her sessions and/or Isaac googled and saw pictures of them. He's familiar enough to know who she is, but not well enough not to mistake her for AK. Otherwise Isaac would have to have met her in person over the course of this next week. However that doesn't explain how Micheala knows Isaac. So maybe Connor tells AK what's happening since Oliver came clean with him?

[Lady Calypso]

8 minutes ago, Milaxx said:

I'll have to watch again and try and figure that out. As for Isaac, it appears Frank called him. IIRC Frank meets hi and they go see Laurel then Isaac is walking to somewhere and see Micheal but at first thinks it's AK. I guess it's possible that  AK talked about them in her sessions and/or Isaac googled and saw pictures of them. He's familiar enough to know who she is, but not well enough not to mistake her for AK. Otherwise Isaac would have to have met her in person over the course of this next week. However that doesn't explain how Micheala knows Isaac. So maybe Connor tells AK what's happening since Oliver came clean with him?

I've been wondering this too. I do think Isaac meets Michaela and Laurel at the party, because Isaac actually goes to see Laurel, which would be odd if he didn't know her, and Frank. Not only that, but Michaela does act like she knows him a little bit, enough where she doesn't just go "get away from me". It also somewhat confirms/heavily implies that Laurel was at AK's when she delivered the baby, or else why would Isaac be trying to get ahold of her, telling her that Laurel's awake? Was Isaac also at the apartment that night? If there was more than 48 hours to realistically give Isaac a reason to see Laurel and not have it be about AK, then I would be wondering more about the situation.  But the only way for it to make sense is for Isaac to be at that party for some reason. Now, how he gets to the party in the first place is what's going to put things together. 

I rewatched some of the flashforward scenes. She definitely knows him well enough to ask if "he's dead". Which, again, doesn't make much sense as to how Isaac got to know at least Michaela and Frank well enough to have conversations like this with them. 

I also noticed in the 3rd episode flashforward, Michaela's hair is covering the right half of her face well enough where it's possible the preview for the finale with blood on her face is right and her face could be bruised....or it could just be blood spatter. 

I guess it's possible that Michaela could be talking about Laurel's baby but her emotions are not just about the dead baby but whatever happened at her work. With her boyfriend in jail, someone (Simon?) possibly dead and now Laurel back in the hospital, she could be reacting to everything. 

[Milaxx]

1 hour ago, Keepitmoving said:

No, in the promo they showed at the end of the last episode, there was blood on her face at the office party. There was clearly blood around, under her right eye while she's screaming for help. But it also looked like she was burned or scratched, maybe some of the blood looked really dark and it's not a bruise. But it looked like a bruise to me.  Now by the time we get to the flash forward with the Dr. in the hospital, when she turns around I don't see any blood on her face  just her clothes, because I guess at some point she or someone cleaned her face off. 

I'm still waiting for them to connect the dots, between her and the Dr. How does he know her name at that hospital? Hell, what is he even doing at the hospital period? Up to now he knows neither Laurel, Frank nor Michaela.

I saw it. It's like a slash under her eye. Let me try and get a screencap. Maybe somebody got pushed through one of the doors at C & G and a shard hit her in the face? BRB

Edited November 13, 2017 by Milaxx

[apn85]

I really believe this is the first season I have literally no clue what is going to happen. I'm glad all of your brains work better than mine!

The baby is probably the biggest mystery to me. Frank's behavior doesn't indicate a dead or missing baby, so I have no idea. Unless he's literally the calmest person on the face of the earth. I know he works well under pressure, but I think even he would crack up a bit if someone had his (or a child he accepts as his own) premature son and was on the run. Also, he says to Laurel, "It's gonna be ok...." I'm sorry, but if my child were dead or missing, NO it's not going to be ok. Not even a little bit. So I have been confused about that from day 1. 

Also confused as to why Asher is in jail. 

So, the baby and Asher have me stumped more than all the other. 

[SunnyBeBe]

I wonder if we'll really even find out much.  I fear it'll just be a bunch of mysteries and leave it up in the air until they return.  So, I'm not getting my hopes up.  I read something funny about Laurel's baby.  What if the baby is really there, but, he's just invisible?  lol  I mean......IDK.  It struck me as funny. 

[Milaxx]

I mentioned this in the thread for ep 4.8, but I think further discussion should go here. What do you think happens to Laurel's baby. For now it's definitely alive, but it's a 7mths old premie born under traumatic circumstances.  No theory is too wild and no, it's not heartless to hope the baby doesn't survive. I'll toss out a few of mine:

• Daddy Castillo kidnaps the baby and uses him as a threat to keep Laurel in line. However, I'm not really interested in an ongoing baby presence on the show because a missing baby keeps all the storytelling centered on Laurel.  
• The baby dies. Another dead baby just adds to the sadness of Bonnie & Annalise.  Although, it could reconcile Annalise & Laurel since they will both have lost their child at the hands of a bad person.
• Daddy Castillo kidnaps the baby but makes Laurel believe the child died.

[Annber03]

5 minutes ago, Milaxx said:

Daddy Castillo kidnaps the baby but makes Laurel believe the child died.

I'd always thought the baby was going to actually die, but I hadn't considered this option. I can totally see the show doing something like this, too.

[Lady Calypso]

1 hour ago, Milaxx said:

• Daddy Castillo kidnaps the baby and uses him as a threat to keep Laurel in line. However, I'm not really interested in an ongoing baby presence on the show because a missing baby keeps all the storytelling centered on Laurel.  

I think this could easily happen. I thought that they might keep the baby alive, only because Annalise's pain has been centered around losing her baby and they may not want to directly parallel that with Laurel. 

Though, part of me doesn't want the baby on the show and if the baby is Frank's, he'd know the pain of losing a child that would be karma for what he did to Annalise. 

I am convinced that Simon will live, however. I think they could keep him in a coma for a while, but I'm not convinced they'll just kill him off. He's been a good foil for the Keating 4, and with them just introducing his background now, along with his crush on Oliver, they might decide to explore that more. I personally don't like Simon, but I can see how they could keep him on the show. He's kind of been more useful to the plot than Nate, at times. All Nate does is whine about Annalise, and then sleep with Annalise when he's needed for cop reasons. Right now, he's basically just a sound board for both Annalise and Bonnie. 

I'll admit, as much as I actually like Connor, especially this season, I'll be disappointed if the premiere comes back and Connor's just fine and Dominic has disappeared and decides to not do anything with him. I guess I'll be disappointed because I've been expecting some payoff with Dominic catching Connor running out of Annalise's house the night Wes was killed. Plus, what will Connor's storyline be then for the last half of the season? Being there for Oliver as he deals with his first direct death and subsequent cover-up? 

Plus, it would beat having Dominic involved just with Laurel and baby for the premiere. Since Nicholas Gonzalez is on another show, I'm willing to bet he'll disappear after the premiere again. 

[Milaxx]

My personal favorite option is Daddy Castillo kidnaps the baby but makes her think the baby died. It gives the writers the opportunity at a later date to do the soap opera grow up and reintroduce the kid as a toddler or small child.  Laurel is brought to the hospital with drugs in her system and Annalise is MIA and we have flashforwards of her fully clothed in the shower. I would guess that Dominic is called to go after Laurel  & he's the one who knocks out Laurel and maybe Annalise and takes the baby before the ambulance arrives. Dominic injected Wes with something to knock him out so that seems to be his MO. I think the only character in danger of ever being killed off is AK, but I think PN has more mileage left in the Coliver relationship as well as the Connor/Annalise relationship.

I do like Simon as foil for the K4. TBH I thought when they introduced him last season that either Connor or Oliver would date him during the break. I never saw Thomas as a serious threat. An impaired but still functional SImon would play on the guilt that the K$ once had about Sam's death. Except for Connor they all have become fairly jaded about that. 

Edited November 19, 2017 by Milaxx

[helenamonster]

Someone touched on this before (and I wish I could remember who), but what happens to the baby and who his father is depends entirely on the tone that the show wants to set:

• Baby lives, is Wes's: a sort of "third time's the charm" for Annalise...she lost her son, and then because Sam Jr. and Wes were forever linked in her mind due to the circumstances surrounding the stillbirth, Wes became her sort of replacement son, but then he died too, but not before killing Sam Sr...if Annalise could resuscitate Wes's son, it breaks the cycle of Wes and death that has dominated her life for 10+ years.
• Baby lives, is Frank's: Annalise saved Frank's son while he was responsible for the death of hers. He will forever be in her debt and the two of them will never be even remotely close to even.
• Baby dies, is Wes's: not a living piece of Wes remains on this earth. He's gone for good, his reputation destroyed post-mortem. His story is sad and final.
• Baby dies, is Frank's: while not necessarily even, Annalise and Frank will be forever tied by the death of their children in which they were both "involved" in some way, and it could maybe clear a path for true redemption for Frank where Annalise is concerned

[apn85]

On 11/18/2017 at 9:17 AM, Milaxx said:

• Daddy Castillo kidnaps the baby and uses him as a threat to keep Laurel in line. However, I'm not really interested in an ongoing baby presence on the show because a missing baby keeps all the storytelling centered on Laurel.  
• Daddy Castillo kidnaps the baby but makes Laurel believe the child died.

 

These 2 of your 3 stuck out to me the most! Could see either happening, honestly. Though, Lord help me, I don't know if I can deal with Laurel if her baby dies. I just don't. I almost didn't survive going through the Wes thing with her. I know that sounds about as heartless as I can be, but I just don't know if I can do it. Especially if she blames Frank and spends the rest of her days berating him and God knows he's not gonna leave her....he just stays around and takes it. If the baby dies, Daddy Castillo can put her somewhere and let Frank tailspin off into obscurity since he wouldn't have Laurel to obsess over 24/7. I could totally see a whole plot of Daddy Castillo having him to make Laurel keep her mouth shut and them trying to get him back. Not excited at that prospect, but I could see it. 

Also, I am kind of wondering if that is why they did the whole paternity test thing. So we'll know who the Father is even though Daddy Castillo has the baby.

 

On 11/19/2017 at 7:25 PM, helenamonster said:

• Baby lives, is Frank's: Annalise saved Frank's son while he was responsible for the death of hers. He will forever be in her debt and the two of them will never be even remotely close to even.
• Baby dies, is Wes's: not a living piece of Wes remains on this earth. He's gone for good, his reputation destroyed post-mortem. His story is sad and final.
• Baby dies, is Frank's: while not necessarily even, Annalise and Frank will be forever tied by the death of their children in which they were both "involved" in some way, and it could maybe clear a path for true redemption for Frank where Annalise is concerned

The Wes angle would be tragic and sad and like you said.....final. I dunno that Nowalk is going for final, but we shall see. On the other hand, aside from Annalise being able to save a piece of Wes since she wasn't able to save Wes, I don't know how many more miles Nowalk could get out of that option either. The other 2 options were more what I have been thinking. Again, grieving Mama Laurel, I dunno if I can do it. She called the little guy "stupid" a few episodes ago, but she's going off the deep end if he bites the dust. I think the most dramatic, obviously, would be the top option: Baby Delfino lives and was saved by Annalise. 

Like you said, just depends on what road Nowalk wants to go down far as tone goes. 

All in all, I am still in disbelief that we're even having this conversation. I never in a million years thought Nowalk would have even come this far with the pregnancy storyline. 

Edited November 22, 2017 by apn85

[Lady Calypso]

On 11/19/2017 at 8:25 PM, helenamonster said:

Someone touched on this before (and I wish I could remember who), but what happens to the baby and who his father is depends entirely on the tone that the show wants to set:

• Baby lives, is Wes's: a sort of "third time's the charm" for Annalise...she lost her son, and then because Sam Jr. and Wes were forever linked in her mind due to the circumstances surrounding the stillbirth, Wes became her sort of replacement son, but then he died too, but not before killing Sam Sr...if Annalise could resuscitate Wes's son, it breaks the cycle of Wes and death that has dominated her life for 10+ years.
• Baby dies, is Frank's: while not necessarily even, Annalise and Frank will be forever tied by the death of their children in which they were both "involved" in some way, and it could maybe clear a path for true redemption for Frank where Annalise is concerned

I think both of these options are the most interesting to me. I think the first option is good because it would probably lead to Annalise officially healing and starting to move past her decade-long trauma. It would really be a healing process for Annalise, which has been central to the show, anyway. 

However, that second option would be good in terms of watching how Frank would deal with the loss of his child by his own hand. Plus, the reaction of Annalise could go either way. 

[Milaxx]

On 11/19/2017 at 8:25 PM, helenamonster said:

Someone touched on this before (and I wish I could remember who), but what happens to the baby and who his father is depends entirely on the tone that the show wants to set:

• Baby lives, is Wes's: a sort of "third time's the charm" for Annalise...she lost her son, and then because Sam Jr. and Wes were forever linked in her mind due to the circumstances surrounding the stillbirth, Wes became her sort of replacement son, but then he died too, but not before killing Sam Sr...if Annalise could resuscitate Wes's son, it breaks the cycle of Wes and death that has dominated her life for 10+ years.
• Baby lives, is Frank's: Annalise saved Frank's son while he was responsible for the death of hers. He will forever be in her debt and the two of them will never be even remotely close to even.
• Baby dies, is Wes's: not a living piece of Wes remains on this earth. He's gone for good, his reputation destroyed post-mortem. His story is sad and final.
• Baby dies, is Frank's: while not necessarily even, Annalise and Frank will be forever tied by the death of their children in which they were both "involved" in some way, and it could maybe clear a path for true redemption for Frank where Annalise is concerned

I could see  a few of these options happening. Option 1 is good healing for Annalise.

Option 4 is a good storyline for the show. It further bonds Annalise & Frank. I also think if it was Frank's Laurel would lie and say it was Wes's. Of it's Frank's her claiming all these shenanigans were for Wes becomes a lie. No way would Laurel confess that to Micheala & co. It's also another secret waiting to drop further down the line whether it be Frank finding out and blackmailing her, Bonnie finding out, or someone else.

[apn85]

5 hours ago, Milaxx said:

Option 4 is a good storyline for the show. It further bonds Annalise & Frank. I also think if it was Frank's Laurel would lie and say it was Wes's. Of it's Frank's her claiming all these shenanigans were for Wes becomes a lie. No way would Laurel confess that to Micheala & co. It's also another secret waiting to drop further down the line whether it be Frank finding out and blackmailing her, Bonnie finding out, or someone else.

1

This would completely throw me over the limit with Laurel and clearly, the bar is set pretty high up there given the fact I am still trying with her, lol. If baby is Frank's and dies I can see her having the monopoly on THAT grief and disregarding anything Frank might feel. Yeah, he's done some terrible shit but so has she! Doesn't mean he has no feelings or doesn't deserve for those to be acknowledged/felt. I don't know why I feel for Frank, but I do and I can't help it. I guess all the verbal abuse he's taken from her even bothered me a bit. Yeah, he takes it, but at this point in his low down life, why would he think he had a right not to? God knows she never compliments him. Wes clocked Sam in the skull (I don't care why) and she'd canonize him if the Catholic Church would allow it. Anyway, if baby dies we'll have to get through all of Laurel's grief before we can even get around to the real meat of the plot.....Annalise & Frank. I don't know if I have the patience or time. Second, if baby dies and she lies to Frank about the paternity still, well, again.....girl, bye. 

Do I think these theories are far fetched? Sadly, not at all. 

Edited November 23, 2017 by apn85

[Milaxx]

Thinking about how they crossover episode will work. On both shows we have (sort of) missing babies. I suppose the search for either baby could cause the shows to cross paths. Will baby Castillo end up i the same hospital as baby Perkins?

On 11/18/2017 at 7:44 PM, Milaxx said:

I do like Simon as foil for the K4.......... An impaired but still functional Simon would play on the guilt that the K4 once had about Sam's death.

I still see this happening. Especially since Oliver is feeling guilty for Simon being shot. Oliver is mentally where they were back in season 1. While the K4 have gotten better at responding to this sort of chaos, Oliver has only seen this from afar.  It will be even more interesting if Simon somehow wakes up thinks he and Oliver are a couple.

Edited January 22, 2018 by Milaxx

[Milaxx]

Jack just posted this on IG. I wonder if Alfie is filming a flashback scene or if they were just hanging out. I mean Tom Verica shows u on the regular and he's been dead since 1.9. 

[Milaxx]

Another update on the Scandal/HTGAWM crossover episode.  Apparently I was way off base with my guesses on this one. It had nothing to do with the missing babies at all.  

Olivia Pope Meets Annalise Keating.

Are those the offices of Capman & Gold?

 

 

Edited January 24, 2018 by Milaxx

[Milaxx]

Shadow & Act just posted more pictures.  It appear that the office they are in are not Caplan & Gold after all. It's the office of  the FItzgerald Grant foundation . For you non Scandal watchers. Fitzgerald Grant was the  president Olivia Pope  was involved with. His term has ended and like most ex-presidents he has set up a philanthropic foundation. He has Marcus working with him. ( The Black guy standing at the desk in the photo in the previous post.)  Marcus joined the show as an activist who was working with a father who's son was killed by a police officer  who claimed it was self defense. . Marcus also got Fitz t intervene in the case of a man trying to get a racist statue removed. My guess is one of AK's cases in her class action has come to the attention of FItz  & Marcus.  I hope this mini Scandal wrap up helps the non Scandal watchers.

Edited January 25, 2018 by Milaxx

[helenamonster]

On 1/25/2018 at 1:55 PM, Milaxx said:

Shadow & Act just posted more pictures.  It appear that the office they are in are not Caplan & Gold after all. It's the office of  the FItzgerald Grant foundation . For you non Scandal watchers. Fitzgerald Grant was the  president Olivia Pope  was involved with. His term has ended and like most ex-presidents he has set up a philanthropic foundation. He has Marcus working with him. ( The Black guy standing at the desk in the photo in the previous post.)  Marcus joined the show as an activist who was working with a father who's son was killed by a police officer  who claimed it was self defense. . Marcus also got Fitz t intervene in the case of a man trying to get a racist statue removed. My guess is one of AK's cases in her class action has come to the attention of FItz  & Marcus.  I hope this mini Scandal wrap up helps the non Scandal watchers.

It definitely does for me. I do hope that this crossover doesn't require people to know everything about each show, as I'm sure there are plenty of people who watch Scandal but not HTGAWM, and there's not enough time (or desire, on my part) to catch up completely with the show you're not watching just for one crossover episode.

[Milaxx]

I think you should be able to follow.  If my guess is correct and the case is one of AK's class action cases then a non Scandal watcher should be able to follow. For a Scandal viewer I think it will just be another layer.

[Milaxx]

TVline has photos for the crossover episodes. No surprise it's Micheala who is positively giddy. After all she has the tendency to idolize powerful women of color. 

Quote

 

ABC has released a batch of first-look photos from the March 1 crossover of Scandal and How to Get Away With Murder, in which members of Olivia Pope and Annalise Keating’s squads meet for the very first time. And if you think you’re giddy over this long-awaited event, just wait until you see the expression on Michaela’s face. She’s losing it.

Spoiler

In addition to Annalise visiting the Fitzgerald Grant institute, we also have new photos of the Murder gang meeting Mellie in the Oval Office, revealing even more historic handshakes.

 

 

Pictures here.

[Lady Calypso]

So, I finally watched the preview for the next episode and are they really going with another round of Wes' Death? Who Killed Wes? We KNOW it was Dominic and we know after Dominic killed Wes, he called Laurel's father, not her mother. Why does it seem like she's now involved? This is so dumb. It really looks like they're going to throw more convoluted stuff into Wes' death and I'm going to hate it.

[Milaxx]

My crackpot theory for Season 5:

• Nate & Frank are in cahoots. Frank either figured out that Nate kept those files or Nate confided in him. Either way they both know the whereabouts if Bonnie's long lost son and probably figured it was best not to draw him into their crazy by telling him or Bonnie his true ID.
• Coliver's wedding will happen, eventually. I d fully expect it to be called off at least once for some dumb reason.
• Connor will have been re-enrolled offscreen. We may get a few flashbacks of how this happened. Perhaps AK calls in a favor with the dean for helping her in her divorce. Either way he will be back on track with the rest of the K5

 

Things I like to see:

• AK move out of that raggedy hotel.
• Laurel resume her internship in the DA's office.

[helenamonster]

On 5/20/2018 at 6:35 PM, Milaxx said:

Coliver's wedding will happen, eventually. I d fully expect it to be called off at least once for some dumb reason.

I will be stunned if there isn't at least one dead body at this wedding. Actually, I'm fully expecting that to be the S5 flash-forward mystery.

[Lady Calypso]

On 5/21/2018 at 9:23 PM, helenamonster said:

I will be stunned if there isn't at least one dead body at this wedding. Actually, I'm fully expecting that to be the S5 flash-forward mystery.

I'm wondering if they want to go that predictable route, or they'll think of some new crisis at the Coliver wedding. I'll be surprised if the flashforward isn't at the Coliver wedding. 

Also, in my dreams, it's Oliver who dies next, but I have a feeling I'll be stuck with him. 

At this point, I'd rather Connor and Annalise just continue with working together. I'd legit just watch a show with those two, with appearances from Bonnie, Frank, and Michaela. 

[Milaxx]

I like this idea. Connor can't be a partner because he's still an intern. We could probably write a fantasy season 5.

So the flashback will be the wedding. They are at the alter, in the middle of vows when suddenly the doors to the church or wherever flies opens and let's say Micheala comes running in and pulls Connor aside. " They found her mom......it's not good". Maybe the mystery can be what happened to Laurel's mother.

I still want Laurel interning at the DA, Bonnie working at the DA. Of course new guy is sleezy, working either for Laurel's dad or Mahooney's.

Frank and Nate are in cahoots trying to follow Bonnie's son and keep his ID a secret.

Frank's also a 1L

AK, reopened her practice, got a new home/office.  Connor/Asher/Oliver work for her.  Micheala  has a new internship at one of the other firms that she had offers from.  She didn't want to work for AK because of Asher and everyone except Connor being mad at her for calling ICE.  Tegan & Marcus gave her references.

Edited May 25, 2018 by Milaxx

[Milaxx]

Since Rome Maddox has been promoted to series regular, I'm certain his parentage will pay a big part this season. Revising my guess for the upcoming season.

I still think we'll have the wedding, the guys working for AK and the gals at different internships. I'm guessing we'll get more case of thee week as AK works on the class action cases. I still think Gabriel is Bonnie's long lost son and Frank/Nate know. My guess is that will be featured more prominently.

[darkestboy]

It's the wedding and we know from the 5x02 Bonnie took Christopher and is about to suffocate the victim. Unless the victim stole Christopher, Bonnie got the baby back and fought off/finishes off the victim?

Either way, Bonnie strikes again.

Connor and Oliver are probably fine, so I'm not really concerned with them for now. 

If they keep pointedly mentioning Michaela getting Simon deported, then I might suspect he's back for revenge against the K4 and Annalise but I think it could be the DA guy who's the dead body or Laurel's mother. 

I'd be shocked if it's either Tegan, Emmett and/or Gabriel, especially as the latter two are still too new for viewers to care about yet. Then again, stranger things have happened on this show.

[Lady Calypso]

1 hour ago, darkestboy said:

I'd be shocked if it's either Tegan, Emmett and/or Gabriel, especially as the latter two are still too new for viewers to care about yet. Then again, stranger things have happened on this show.

It's probably not Gabriel. They might want to use him as long as possible, and I think they are going to test him out this season to see if he could potentially be the one to join the Keating 5. They tried with Simon a while back, I think, and it didn't work, so they may try with Gabriel this season. 

Tegan's not likely to be the dead body, although it's not out of the realm of possibilities. 

[Percysowner]

On 9/28/2018 at 9:01 AM, darkestboy said:

It's the wedding and we know from the 5x02 Bonnie took Christopher and is about to suffocate the victim. Unless the victim stole Christopher, Bonnie got the baby back and fought off/finishes off the victim?

Either way, Bonnie strikes again.

Connor and Oliver are probably fine, so I'm not really concerned with them for now. 

If they keep pointedly mentioning Michaela getting Simon deported, then I might suspect he's back for revenge against the K4 and Annalise but I think it could be the DA guy who's the dead body or Laurel's mother. 

I'd be shocked if it's either Tegan, Emmett and/or Gabriel, especially as the latter two are still too new for viewers to care about yet. Then again, stranger things have happened on this show.

Although it looks like Bonnie suffocates the victim, it is also possible that she was trying to stop the bleeding and the muffled sounds were because whoever it was was dying with Bonnie trying to save them. The show loves misdirects and I would not like it if they redo Bonnie's the actual murderer story. The first time was enough. The gasps and groans sounded female to me, but I could be wrong. Maybe the victim is Laurel's mother, who was trying to kidnap Christopher? We've been told she's alive. I think they want Gabriel to stick around, maybe as a replacement for Wes, so he could be safe. Emmet and Tegan are less safe, although I am leaning toward a female victim.