S2.E05: Mirror

[Quilt Fairy]

Quote

Cromwell brings Anne of Cleves to England to be Henry's new wife, a marriage that would secure and alliance with Germany.

US air date: April 20, 2025

[sugarbaker design]

Next week should be very interesting!

Did Anne of Cleeves get even one line?

[libgirl2]

25 minutes ago, sugarbaker design said:

Next week should be very interesting!

Did Anne of Cleeves get even one line?

No and I wish we would have gotten something from her. 

[Driad]

If you had to be one of Henry's wives, which would you choose?  Anne of Cleves would be my first choice. Second choice Catherine Parr.

[sugarbaker design]

25 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

No and I wish we would have gotten something from her. 

Same here! I've always found her to be the most interesting of the 6.

[libgirl2]

5 minutes ago, sugarbaker design said:

Same here! I've always found her to be the most interesting of the 6.

She certainly was one of the smartest. She escaped what could have been a bad situation and lived in relative comfort. I have read that she had hoped Henry would take her back after Catherine Howard, but somehow I can't imagine many women wanting to be queen after all of this. And she was pretty much the 4th most important lady in the country after the queen, Mary and Elizabeth. That isn't too bad.  Who knows? 

Edited April 21 by libgirl2

[Notabug]

50 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

She certainly was one of the smartest. She escaped what could have been a bad situation and lived in relative comfort. I have read that she had hoped Henry would take her back after Catherine Howard, but somehow I can't imagine many women wanting to be queen after all of this. And she was pretty much the 4th most important lady in the country after the queen, Mary and Elizabeth. That isn't too bad.  Who knows? 

Henry referred to Anne of Cleves as being like his sister after the divorce; so it was pretty obvious he didn't want her back.  However, she got a very sweet deal out of it.  Noblewomen in Germany in that era led very restrictive lives, she would've been back under her brother's thumb, probably never to be married again; had Henry not taken care of her.

As it was, Anne got a palace and a nice income for the rest of her life from Henry; freeing her to live as she wished without interference.  I suppose, if she wanted to be Queen again, it was mainly because she had been told her whole life that she had but one purpose; to make a marriage that would help her brother as Duke.

Catherine Parr was seemingly very bright, but she had kind of a crummy life overall. Her first husband was a lot older but treated her ok until he died.  She then fell in love with Thomas Seymour, Jane's brother, but Henry decided he wanted her and so that was the end of that.  After Henry died, Catherine reunited with Thomas and they married. The fact that she was the wealthiest woman in England was probably a big incentive for Thomas. But, being a Seymour and eager for a crown, Seymour flirted outrageously with Princess Elizabeth who was only 15 or so; devastating Catherine.  Seymour apparently figured marrying a Princess who might someday become Queen was a better bet than the Dowager Queen.  Then Catherine died in childbirth, Seymour was arrested for treason and beheaded about a year later.  Their daughter died while still a toddler.

Edited April 21 by Notabug

[sugarbaker design]

52 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

 I have read that she had hoped Henry would take her back after Catherine Howard, but somehow I can't imagine many women wanting to be queen after all of this. 

I share your doubts about this claim. AoC got a decent divorce payout from H8, she didn't go back to her native Germany for fear of control by her male relatives. She stayed in England with money and freedom.

[libgirl2]

1 hour ago, Notabug said:

Henry referred to Anne of Cleves as being like his sister after the divorce; so it was pretty obvious he didn't want her back.  However, she got a very sweet deal out of it.  Noblewomen in Germany in that era led very restrictive lives, she would've been back under her brother's thumb, probably never to be married again; had Henry not taken care of her.

As it was, Anne got a palace and a nice income for the rest of her life from Henry; freeing her to live as she wished without interference.  I suppose, if she wanted to be Queen again, it was mainly because she had been told her whole life that she had but one purpose; to make a marriage that would help her brother as Duke.

Catherine Parr was seemingly very bright, but she had kind of a crummy life overall. Her first husband was a lot older but treated her ok until he died.  She then fell in love with Thomas Seymour, Jane's brother, but Henry decided he wanted her and so that was the end of that.  After Henry died, Catherine reunited with Thomas and they married. The fact that she was the wealthiest woman in England was probably a big incentive for Thomas. But, being a Seymour and eager for a crown, Seymour flirted outrageously with Princess Elizabeth who was only 15 or so; devastating Catherine.  Seymour apparently figured marrying a Princess who might someday become Queen was a better bet than the Dowager Queen.  Then Catherine died in childbirth, Seymour was arrested for treason and beheaded about a year later.  Their daughter died while still a toddler.

I thought Catherine Parr had two older husbands. I felt bad for her. She survived 3 old men, got her Thomas Seymour and he turned out to be a user. I also think he thought about marrying Mary. 

[Haleth]

Catherine Parr’s life was pretty tragic. Finally married to the man of her dreams with a terrible ending. She was apparently brilliant and wrote a (couple?) book(s) at a time when women’s education was often lacking.

I remember the old series The Six Wives etc, especially the Anne of Cleeves episode. There was a scene where she and Henry were alone discussing their lack of attraction and she basically manipulated him into divorcing her and setting her up with her own household. Win/win. I think I read that she remained close to Mary and Elizabeth, like a loving older sister. 

Edited April 21 by Haleth

[Spartan Girl]

Welp, Cromwell is screwed.

For a monarch that has been around, Henry really doesn’t know shit about women. Even if he was younger and hotter, it still wouldn’t have been a good idea to surprise her like that.

Anne of Cleves did get the best deal out of all the wives, but it came at the cost of Henry running his mouth off to everyone about how ugly she supposedly was in very graphic detail, thus making her permanently ineligible for a better match despite still being a virgin. Then again, being a rich single woman in that time period was a rarity, so not such a bad trade-off.

[DanaK]

I don’t really understand what happened with Cromwell with the council at the end of the episode. Was he out because the king didn’t like his new wife and blamed Cromwell for it because he set up the match?

Also, it seems any woman would have to be naive to want to marry Henry given the way he went through wives, but I guess the women he set his sights on didn’t have a lot of choice in those days

[GHScorpiosRule]

49 minutes ago, DanaK said:

I don’t really understand what happened with Cromwell with the council at the end of the episode. Was he out because the king didn’t like his new wife and blamed Cromwell for it because he set up the match?

Pretty much yes. 

49 minutes ago, DanaK said:

it seems any woman would have to be naive to want to marry Henry given the way he went through wives, but I guess the women he set his sights on didn’t have a lot of choice in those days

None of them had any choice. Even those he wanted to dally with and make his mistress.

[lovesnark]

7 hours ago, DanaK said:

I don’t really understand what happened with Cromwell with the council at the end of the episode. Was he out because the king didn’t like his new wife and blamed Cromwell for it because he set up the match?

Also, it seems any woman would have to be naive to want to marry Henry given the way he went through wives, but I guess the women he set his sights on didn’t have a lot of choice in those days

They kind of glossed over how the council had been plotting to get rid of him for a long time, particularly the Duke of Norfolk and Bishop Gardiner. They hated him because he was a commoner that had quickly risen to being the most powerful man in England. During Henry's reign, it was a constant battle between the men on the council all jockeying for a position close to the king. Henry would use them to get what he wanted, then dispose of them when they could no longer make what he wanted happen. The Anne of Cleaves debacle was the final nail in the coffin for Cromwell. The Duke of Norfolk was ready to position his niece, Katherine Howard, to the forefront of court because he knew Henry would go for her and he would reap the rewards of being the uncle of the queen. And, by this time, Henry had become even more tyrannical and paranoid and it didn't take much for them to convince him that Cromwell was plotting against him.

Women had no choice in whether to marry someone or not. If you were a noblewoman, marriages were made for political gain and choice didn't factor into it.  In the end, it worked out really well for Anne of Cleaves. She had plenty of money, lovely homes with the staff to run them and maintained a nice relationship with Mary and Elizabeth. It was rare during that time for a woman to be single and have what she had. Out of all of Henry's wives, she definitely made out the best.

[Notabug]

On 4/22/2025 at 7:59 PM, Spartan Girl said:

For a monarch that has been around, Henry really doesn’t know shit about women. Even if he was younger and hotter, it still wouldn’t have been a good idea to surprise her like that.

Henry was raised from birth to believe that he was extra special and not just to women.  He loved playing 'tricks' on the courtiers and they all went along with it and pretended to be shocked and astonished at his various disguises.  Anne, however, didn't know that he was a big kid who needed his ego stroked constantly and no one told her to pretend to be surprised and completely fooled if he turned up in disguise.  He did this kind of stuff throughout his life and everyone pretended he was so clever and went along with it every time despite the fact that Henry was well over 6 feet tall, way over the average height for men in that era and had red hair as a youth and massively overweight in later adulthood.  Nobody could possibly mistake him for anyone else.

[Notwisconsin]

Its an interesting take on the subject, which has been done to death. The thing is, if anyone in the upper class knew anything about gynecology, he would have lived happily ever after with Katherine of Aragon.

It's always useful to remember that Cromwell's nephew's (great?) grandson DID manage to become King.

[Notwisconsin]

On 4/21/2025 at 7:58 PM, Haleth said:

Catherine Parr’s life was pretty tragic. Finally married to the man of her dreams with a terrible ending. She was apparently brilliant and wrote a (couple?) book(s) at a time when women’s education was often lacking.

It nearly got her killed. Her kid's fate is unknown. Miss Saymore may have actually lived to a ripe old age, but we'll never know.

[Haleth]

26 minutes ago, Notwisconsin said:

It nearly got her killed. Her kid's fate is unknown. Miss Saymore may have actually lived to a ripe old age, but we'll never know.

Probably the best thing if she got far away from her greedy, scheming relatives.

Edited April 25 by Haleth

[sugarbaker design]

1 hour ago, Notwisconsin said:

Its an interesting take on the subject, which has been done to death. The thing is, if anyone in the upper class knew anything about gynecology, he would have lived happily ever after with Katherine of Aragon.

It's always useful to remember that Cromwell's nephew's (great?) grandson DID manage to become King.

Oliver Cromwell might quibble with your terminology. He was more comfortable with the title Lord Protector.

[libgirl2]

On 4/24/2025 at 12:00 PM, Notabug said:

Henry was raised from birth to believe that he was extra special and not just to women.  He loved playing 'tricks' on the courtiers and they all went along with it and pretended to be shocked and astonished at his various disguises.  Anne, however, didn't know that he was a big kid who needed his ego stroked constantly and no one told her to pretend to be surprised and completely fooled if he turned up in disguise.  He did this kind of stuff throughout his life and everyone pretended he was so clever and went along with it every time despite the fact that Henry was well over 6 feet tall, way over the average height for men in that era and had red hair as a youth and massively overweight in later adulthood.  Nobody could possibly mistake him for anyone else.

Katherine of Aragon out of all his wives knew how to play along with his tricks and games. Henry even said it on the show. I still believe our of all his wives, she was the one who adored him and would have crawled over glass for him. Just look at her last letter to him. 

[Quilt Fairy]

On 4/24/2025 at 12:00 PM, Notabug said:

Henry was raised from birth to believe that he was extra special and not just to women. 

I'm not so sure about that.  I watched a special about him (maybe on Amazon) a few months ago and it pointed out that he was the second son after Arthur and that his father definitely considered him "the spare".  Arthur got all the military and political training and Henry was allowed to be a Mama's boy and just study, as he was meant to go into the Church.  He was devastated when his mother died when he was only 12.  Even after Arthur's death his father didn't promote or train him properly. 

[CeeBeeGee]

On 4/22/2025 at 7:59 PM, Spartan Girl said:

Anne of Cleves did get the best deal out of all the wives, but it came at the cost of Henry running his mouth off to everyone about how ugly she supposedly was in very graphic detail, thus making her permanently ineligible for a better match despite still being a virgin. Then again, being a rich single woman in that time period was a rarity, so not such a bad trade-off.

In retrospect it's a little shocking that Henry, of all people, couldn't wrap his brain around the idea of a political marriage being useful, whether or not they found each other attractive. He made his younger sister marry the elderly King of France, after all and he certainly knew his marriage to Anne was arranged for political purposes. His sense of state craft (I'm sure there's a better phrase I could use) is less than impressive.

 

On 4/23/2025 at 5:00 PM, lovesnark said:

They kind of glossed over how the council had been plotting to get rid of him for a long time, particularly the Duke of Norfolk and Bishop Gardiner. They hated him because he was a commoner that had quickly risen to being the most powerful man in England. During Henry's reign, it was a constant battle between the men on the council all jockeying for a position close to the king. Henry would use them to get what he wanted, then dispose of them when they could no longer make what he wanted happen. The Anne of Cleaves debacle was the final nail in the coffin for Cromwell. The Duke of Norfolk was ready to position his niece, Katherine Howard, to the forefront of court because he knew Henry would go for her and he would reap the rewards of being the uncle of the queen. And, by this time, Henry had become even more tyrannical and paranoid and it didn't take much for them to convince him that Cromwell was plotting against him.

Women had no choice in whether to marry someone or not. If you were a noblewoman, marriages were made for political gain and choice didn't factor into it.  In the end, it worked out really well for Anne of Cleaves. She had plenty of money, lovely homes with the staff to run them and maintained a nice relationship with Mary and Elizabeth. It was rare during that time for a woman to be single and have what she had. Out of all of Henry's wives, she definitely made out the best.

Established aristocrats have always been threatened by so-called New Men--men who had risen to power on their own abilities and who had no or few family or political connections. Cicero was targeted for the same reasons.

 

7 hours ago, libgirl2 said:

Katherine of Aragon out of all his wives knew how to play along with his tricks and games. Henry even said it on the show. I still believe our of all his wives, she was the one who adored him and would have crawled over glass for him. Just look at her last letter to him. 

The trajectory of her marriage to Henry was truly sad--they really did love each other at one time, and genuinely grieved for their lost babies. And she got to see the best of Henry, before the accident when his personality apparently changed. But I have to say, as much as I like Katherine (and yes, I think she didn't consummate the marriage with Arthur)--she was too politically savvy not to know he had to have a male heir. And she, out of how many pregnancies, only had the one living girl. Why could she not recognize the situation and go into a convent? He needed a son. She couldn't give him one. Out of love for him, she could've done that. Her stubbornness ruined the rest of her life.

[libgirl2]

10 hours ago, CeeBeeGee said:

In retrospect it's a little shocking that Henry, of all people, couldn't wrap his brain around the idea of a political marriage being useful, whether or not they found each other attractive. He made his younger sister marry the elderly King of France, after all and he certainly knew his marriage to Anne was arranged for political purposes. His sense of state craft (I'm sure there's a better phrase I could use) is less than impressive.

 

 

All his life, Henry was a romantic. He was one of those rare royals who wanted to be in love with the woman he married. Plus, women did as they were told, a king could choose. 

10 hours ago, CeeBeeGee said:

The trajectory of her marriage to Henry was truly sad--they really did love each other at one time, and genuinely grieved for their lost babies. And she got to see the best of Henry, before the accident when his personality apparently changed. But I have to say, as much as I like Katherine (and yes, I think she didn't consummate the marriage with Arthur)--she was too politically savvy not to know he had to have a male heir. And she, out of how many pregnancies, only had the one living girl. Why could she not recognize the situation and go into a convent? He needed a son. She couldn't give him one. Out of love for him, she could've done that. Her stubbornness ruined the rest of her life.

She was also staunchly Catholic and you married for life. But most importantly, she loved and adored him. She was also of royal blood and he was dumping her for a commoner (basically), not someone of her equal.