S02.E10: Cold Harbor

[Milburn Stone]

7 hours ago, arc said:

Anyways, Erickson didn't just have the idea of mentally checking out of work. In a very early version of the script, long before Stiller signed on, he had...[outline of story, characters, dialogue, etc.]

Thank you for this corrective, @arc. I say corrective rather than correction, because I felt guilty in the aftermath of posting my too-cynical post, and I hereby expiate for that. I feel cleansed.

[not sarcasm]

[Kirbyrun]

15 hours ago, arc said:

I buy that Erickson came up with the basic concept when he was working in a door factory, but I don't know anything Erickson has done prior to this show that would make me believe he's capable of the kind of world-building the show has done, nor of the high level of excellence of the dialogue.

This...bugs me, and I'll try to explain why...

As someone who works in entertainment (not Hollywood, but Hollywood adjacent), one problem I see all the time is that new people are made to run through a ridiculous gauntlet to prove themselves. While people with a string of failures behind them still get gigs because, well, they're known.

Check out the writing credits of movies some time. You'll see a LOT of the same names popping up.

Art, culture, entertainment...these things all need regular infusions of new blood, and Hollywood, video games, publishing -- these are all really, really bad at finding and -- more importantly -- NURTURING new talent.

Maybe, just maybe, Dan Erickson is an immensely talented person who never got a break and then Ben Stiller decided to take a risk and is reaping the rewards. But to say, "He's never done anything before, so I don't believe he can do anything now" is, in my view, blinkered and, well, sort of insulting.

Edited March 29 by Kirbyrun
Somehow the wrong person is credited with the quote I used??? Sorry, @arc!

[Affogato]

On 3/26/2025 at 9:38 PM, ombre said:

I have other thoughts on the storytelling that I'm not gonna get into right now, but one thing that I keep thinking about is how much time has actually gone by in the show. So many of this season's episodes were either happening right after one another or literally simultaneously that I kinda get the impression that it might have only been a week or so. And we know it starts right after the last season. And honestly, I don't think that last season covered all that much time. Mark missed a few days here and there and helly missed a few days after she tried to hang herself but... The whole show may have taken place within maybe a month? I kind of get the impression that there are weird things going on with sense of time - both because of the three-year gap between seasons and the way that the episodes were spread out over two months for us. But I feel like this has been one crazy snowball for the characters, just one thing right after another, and for the viewers is been a slow, gradual unfolding. Which makes things feel really odd. 

I agree that not much time has passed. It also means Mitchick has not been in charge long, no one in the birthing cabins knows Cobel has been fired and this makes sense, and Miss Huang was barely there. People have been fussing over where Rickon is, but I assume if Devon is looking after Mark someone has to watch the baby.

[ahpny]

On 3/24/2025 at 6:45 PM, seank941 said:

It really feels like they want the plot of Westworld, when they have a chance for something so much more unique and interesting.

This is still working better for me than Westworld, which looked spectular, but soon spun into so many byzantine knots that it engendered frustration more than anything else. Severance, at least so far, is more coherent (if not fully so) and has some fundamentally profound points.

I found the innie/outie arguments respectively between the Marks and the Devons intriguing. The marching band - of course Lumon would have a department for that - was inspired lunacy. And though I suspect there's far more to suddenly spineful Mr. Milcheck, he is one fine dancer.

Maybe I'm being too biblical, but the choice faced by the two Marks, plus the sacrificial goat suggested the binding of Isaac, where Abraham had to chose either to sacrifice his son Isaac or disobey God. Here, outie Mark had to choose to sacrifice innie Mark, not to obey God, but to save his wife. Isaac went along with his father's plan. Mark S considered the plan but never wholly embraced it and ultimately rejected it. The analogy is far from perfect, but hey, prominent, sacrificial goats appear in both!

The reference to the "equator" - the line that separates one half of the globe from the other half - was a bit on the nose, though the pictures on the wall of icebergs were a bit more subtle. Only the top 1/10 of an iceberg is visiable and sits over the water, with the remaining 9/10th lurking unseen beneath the water. A rather apt metaphor for Lumon.

 

[Ottis]

On 3/20/2025 at 11:23 PM, Mr. R0b0t said:

I still need to digest, but I believe this finale was uneven and for me had some high highs and some head-scratching lows.  Really interested to see what others think.

 

On 3/20/2025 at 11:32 PM, Penman61 said:

Superbly directed, viscerally and narratively (mostly) satisfying...up until Mark's final decision.

I realized what it is about this series that bugs me, after picking at it for a couple of seasons: The show thinks it is far more clever than it is. It coyly drags out obvious actions and reactions, making us ponder if there is some hidden meaning we don't see. There isn't. At least, there isn't once we understood the framework of innies and outties.

Because innie Mark choosing Helly made perfect sense and was the only real option.

On 3/20/2025 at 11:32 PM, Penman61 said:

I'd like to hear others' thoughts, and I see how the writers set Mark's choice up, but choosing Helly and them staying inside struck me as obviously trying to prolong the show into another season...choosing Gemma would have been like a series finale choice.

This topic makes me remember The Sixth Sense, because for whatever reason I knew immediately during the film that the boy

Spoiler

was seeing dead people

, and when we got to the "surprise twist" I didn't get it because I thought everyone else also realized what he was seeing. 

It has been made abundantly clear that innie Mark has no connection to Gemma, his outtie's wife. Innie Mark's love interest is Helly. If that wasn't already obvious, this final ep took pains with the video camera conversation to define the differences in perspective. Therefore at the end, innie Mark choosing to stay was not a surprise. It made perfect sense.

What *didn't* make sense, and this is the shit this show does all the time, is innie Mark not simply telling Gemma to head out and outtie Mark would be home for a reunion (or to go to the police or whatever the right solution was in that world). That he is innie Mark. Gemma even begs him to go home. Go do it, then.

That conversation didn't happen because ... fake drama. Just like the marching band diversion, and the bloody, protracted hallway fight with Drummond. [Note: if I were brainstorming with others on an over-the-top new office celebration, "marching band" is the first thing I would think of ... it's the subject of a cliche, for pete's sake, i.e. "what did you expect, a marching band?"].

I really don't understand it. The show's concept is brilliant and worth exploration. But the execution is amateurish and far too into its own ass.

On 3/22/2025 at 8:12 PM, Jack Shaftoe said:

So macro data refining is basically magic? Other people pulling numbers based on vibes somehow has an effect on Gemma? I know the show isn't exactly hard science fiction but this broke my suspension of disbelief into a million pieces.

That was never going to be remotely real in any way. That stuff doesn't bother me.

On 3/22/2025 at 8:02 PM, JKL845 said:

I disagree that Mark and Gemma's marriage was ending. He was so distraught by her "death" that he had to sever in order to function. The whole reason they "killed" Gemma was to get Mark to sever. Even two years later his outie life is a mess without Gemma.

Could be, but the thing that really stood out to me this ep was Adam has no chemistry with the actress who plays Gemma. Maybe that was part of the sloooooooow reveal to the final decision. But Adam and the Helly actress seem far more connected.

[shura]

On 4/3/2025 at 7:01 AM, Ottis said:

What *didn't* make sense, and this is the shit this show does all the time, is innie Mark not simply telling Gemma to head out and outtie Mark would be home for a reunion (or to go to the police or whatever the right solution was in that world). That he is innie Mark. Gemma even begs him to go home. Go do it, then.

That conversation didn't happen because ... fake drama.

You are requiring that innie Mark have a rational plan for all of this.  But there is no reason he can’t be a regular person who does not do everything rationally.  Maybe he simply didn’t think of saying that to Gemma to get her out of his hair.  Or maybe it just didn’t bother him enough to say anything.  Helly is standing right there, I’m gonna go, Ms. Casey, good luck with your wailing…  It’s not even clear that he has a plan for what happens next to him and Helly, and that is significantly more important than someone he doesn’t care about that much being melodramatic in the staircase.

[Ottis]

16 hours ago, shura said:

You are requiring that innie Mark have a rational plan for all of this.  But there is no reason he can’t be a regular person who does not do everything rationally.

Except he and outtie Mark had an extensive conversation about their plan. And it isn't like both Mark's haven't had time to think about all this. They've had more time than we have as viewers, and it seems pretty clear that outtie Mark is Gema's husband and innie Mark has a thing with Helly. Both Marks are "good guys" so innie Mark helped outtie Mark by getting Ms. Casey out so she can be Gemma. But clearly innie Mark and Helly have something between them.

The show has gone to great lengths to depict this. Not sure why, when it comes time to act accordingly, innie Mark makes no sense. Except drama.

 

[lovett1979]

30 minutes ago, Ottis said:

Except he and outtie Mark had an extensive conversation about their plan. And it isn't like both Mark's haven't had time to think about all this. They've had more time than we have as viewers, and it seems pretty clear that outtie Mark is Gema's husband and innie Mark has a thing with Helly. Both Marks are "good guys" so innie Mark helped outtie Mark by getting Ms. Casey out so she can be Gemma. But clearly innie Mark and Helly have something between them.

The show has gone to great lengths to depict this. Not sure why, when it comes time to act accordingly, innie Mark makes no sense. Except drama.

 

They did discuss outtie Mark's plan, but innie Mark never really agreed to it. He was quite skeptical and pushed-back and was concerned about his continuing existence once it was accomplished. For all he knows, once Gemma and oMark were out, he would never return to the severed space and essentially be dead.

So iMark did do the "right" thing by saving Gemma (btw, it was never explained exactly why they would have had to kill her after Cold Harbor, that bothers me) but once she was (assumed) safe, he made the choice for himself to stay "alive," and with the person HE loves, for as long as possible. Was it a stupid choice? Perhaps. But it was an understandable choice.

[AstridM]

18 hours ago, shura said:

You are requiring that innie Mark have a rational plan for all of this.  But there is no reason he can’t be a regular person who does not do everything rationally.  Maybe he simply didn’t think of saying that to Gemma to get her out of his hair.  Or maybe it just didn’t bother him enough to say anything.  Helly is standing right there, I’m gonna go, Ms. Casey, good luck with your wailing…  It’s not even clear that he has a plan for what happens next to him and Helly, and that is significantly more important than someone he doesn’t care about that much being melodramatic in the staircase.

Come on! 🤦‍♀️

[shura]

1 hour ago, Ottis said:

Except he and outtie Mark had an extensive conversation about their plan. And it isn't like both Mark's haven't had time to think about all this. They've had more time than we have as viewers, and it seems pretty clear that outtie Mark is Gema's husband and innie Mark has a thing with Helly. Both Marks are "good guys" so innie Mark helped outtie Mark by getting Ms. Casey out so she can be Gemma.

Maybe I am misunderstanding what you mean by ‘drama’.  The part where Gemma realizes that innie Mark is not coming with her and starts crying and calling for him is what I understand as the drama we are talking about.  To avoid or stop this, yes, a solution could have been to just tell her to go home and wait for outie Mark there.  But that was never in the plan they devised, innie Mark was supposed to go with her according to that plan, if I remember correctly.  Once he decides to stay, he doesn’t have to care about this drama or know how to stop it.

I mean, sure, the drama is there for us viewers, but it’s not like it’s inconceivable in the world of the show that innie Mark wouldn’t tell her to just go home.

[AstridM]

3 minutes ago, shura said:

Maybe I am misunderstanding what you mean by ‘drama’.  The part where Gemma realizes that innie Mark is not coming with her and starts crying and calling for him is what I understand as the drama we are talking about.  To avoid or stop this, yes, a solution could have been to just tell her to go home and wait for outie Mark there.  But that was never in the plan they devised, innie Mark was supposed to go with her according to that plan, if I remember correctly.  Once he decides to stay, he doesn’t have to care about this drama or know how to stop it.

I mean, sure, the drama is there for us viewers, but it’s not like it’s inconceivable in the world of the show that innie Mark wouldn’t tell her to just go home.

Jesus, I don’t think innie Mark is meant to be a sociopath, ffs.

[shura]

4 minutes ago, AstridM said:

Jesus, I don’t think innie Mark is meant to be a sociopath, ffs.

Why a sociopath?  Here is the person he loves, there is a person he barely knows.  He chooses to be with Helly and it doesn’t occur to him that he can stop Gemma’s crying by lying to her that he is coming home as outie Mark later, that’s all.

[Affogato]

Also we have leaned into the idea that the innies are growing up. Helly and iMark run off like Romeo and Juliet. But you know, Innie Mark choosing not to die AND he has something to live for—makes sense. 

[AstridM]

29 minutes ago, shura said:

Why a sociopath?  Here is the person he loves, there is a person he barely knows.  He chooses to be with Helly and it doesn’t occur to him that he can stop Gemma’s crying by lying to her that he is coming home as outie Mark later, that’s all.

Yes, but he could have said SOMETHING. Said he’s NOT outie Mark and told her to keep going without him. Not just watched her scream and cry and then walk away.

23 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Also we have leaned into the idea that the innies are growing up. Helly and iMark run off like Romeo and Juliet. But you know, Innie Mark choosing not to die AND he has something to live for—makes sense. 

Well, we know how THAT story ends.

[Affogato]

50 minutes ago, AstridM said:

Yes, but he could have said SOMETHING. Said he’s NOT outie Mark and told her to keep going without him. Not just watched her scream and cry and then walk away.

Well, we know how THAT story ends.

Sadly, yes

[shura]

52 minutes ago, AstridM said:

Yes, but he could have said SOMETHING. Said he’s NOT outie Mark and told her to keep going without him. Not just watched her scream and cry and then walk away.

So is he or is he not meant to be a sociopath based on what he actually did?  I don’t think he is.  He’s just saved her!  Yes, it would have been nice if he consoled her, too, but he is now fighting for his life and whatever short future he has left with Helly.  I’d give him a break.

Btw, does Gemma know that Mark is severed?  I can’t remember if he said anything to her when they were Gemma and outie Mark on the testing floor and in the elevator.  Would it make sense to her if he started talking about outie Mark?

[AstridM]

20 minutes ago, shura said:

So is he or is he not meant to be a sociopath based on what he actually did?  I don’t think he is.  He’s just saved her!  Yes, it would have been nice if he consoled her, too, but he is now fighting for his life and whatever short future he has left with Helly.  I’d give him a break.

Btw, does Gemma know that Mark is severed?  I can’t remember if he said anything to her when they were Gemma and outie Mark on the testing floor and in the elevator.  Would it make sense to her if he started talking about outie Mark?

I didn’t say “console,” I said say SOMETHING.

[JenE4]

it’s a cliffhanger ending for the season finale. It’s supposed to be dramatic and leave you wondering what happens to Gemma/Outie Mark, and, frankly, how are Helly and Innie Mark supposed to “live happily ever after” in the facility for which they just blew up their landmark project? It’s not like they’ll be like, you got us guys. Go have a picnic date in the goat room pasture with this deviled egg cart. We’re supposed to be like, wow, that was dramatic, what are they going to do?!?! Not have Mark turn to the camera and say, come back next season to watch me spend 12 hours M-F and alternating weekends with each of my lovely ladies! I find it so strange when people try to apply “rational” thinking and rules to television shows. Like, sure, most movies would be over in 5 minutes if the characters just talked to each other. Do people just not understand the point of television?
 

[Hanahope]

Well, we got a few answers this season, but so many more questions. 

I mean did we really need to know that Harmony invented severence?  did that really matter?  i guess it supports her about face, sure.

we know that Lumon has been doing Mark/Gemma stuff for a long time in some way, though somehow this was still "special" in some way?  was it because this 25th split (or 26th really) was the most?  or was it because this was the first time they got a couple who had suffered an inability to have a child (miscarriage/failed ivf?)  was there something special about Mark's building Gemma's tempers? or did they previously have other spouses building tempers for presumably dead spouses too, but again this was the first one with the baby issue?  does Lumon think that is the worst tragedy that if that can be severed anything can be severed?  uh, there's worse.  but maybe that's the next set of spousal MDR/testing subject to do.

was the plan for mark to be terminated after he finished his 25th file?  or would he just be part of another group with the next 'spouse' taking say Irving's place?

and will we ever get Irving's story?

So many questions.

[Macbeth1966]

On 3/24/2025 at 12:37 PM, tennisgurl said:

You don't hire Gwendoline Christie and not give her a fight scene. Love seeing her again and I'm so glad that Emile was saved. Emile is the name of the goat, you see. 

Yes!!!  Brienne of Tarth was in the House!!!

Her coming in and kicking Drummond's ass made me very happy.  😊

[Affogato]

20 hours ago, Hanahope said:

Well, we got a few answers this season, but so many more questions. 

I mean did we really need to know that Harmony invented severence?  did that really matter?  i guess it supports her about face, sure.

we know that Lumon has been doing Mark/Gemma stuff for a long time in some way, though somehow this was still "special" in some way?  was it because this 25th split (or 26th really) was the most?  or was it because this was the first time they got a couple who had suffered an inability to have a child (miscarriage/failed ivf?)  was there something special about Mark's building Gemma's tempers? or did they previously have other spouses building tempers for presumably dead spouses too, but again this was the first one with the baby issue?  does Lumon think that is the worst tragedy that if that can be severed anything can be severed?  uh, there's worse.  but maybe that's the next set of spousal MDR/testing subject to do.

was the plan for mark to be terminated after he finished his 25th file?  or would he just be part of another group with the next 'spouse' taking say Irving's place?

and will we ever get Irving's story?

So many questions.

I think the mdr group was part of the gemma/cold harbor experiment. I imagine they could have been reassigned, if there was work, like the new group had been reassigned from grand rapids. We really don’t have the information.  The things they have learned would make it less likely, I think. They are rebels.
There is a larger project involving the Rickon book and making severed happy, too. 

[Dobian]

Just watched this.  I thought the episode was extraordinary, and I don't get the hate for the cliffhanger at all.  Going into it, I prepared myself for some stupid narrative that would wreck the show, as so often happens with these things, but nope, it logically made total sense.  The writers really understand how the innie/outie versions of these characters think and feel.  Even outtie Dylan's letter to innie Dylan demonstrated their deep understanding of the characters.  Really looking forward to season 3.  There are still so many questions, such as why Gemma was pulled into Lumen in the first place and why her death was staged to manipulate Mark to join.  Just please don't make us wait two years.

Edited April 16 by Dobian

[Macbeth1966]

On 4/16/2025 at 4:12 PM, Dobian said:

Just watched this.  I thought the episode was extraordinary, and I don't get the hate for the cliffhanger at all.  Going into it, I prepared myself for some stupid narrative that would wreck the show, as so often happens with these things, but nope, it logically made total sense.  The writers really understand how the innie/outie versions of these characters think and feel.  Even outtie Dylan's letter to innie Dylan demonstrated their deep understanding of the characters.  Really looking forward to season 3.  There are still so many questions, such as why Gemma was pulled into Lumen in the first place and why her death was staged to manipulate Mark to join.  Just please don't make us wait two years.

I absolutely agree.  I thought it was fantastic that innie Mark S ended up not trusting outie Mark S at all.  I did not see that coming.  One of the greatest verbal sparring I have seen on tv.  

And I really loved how innie and outie Dylans interacted.  It was so wonderful.

[Black Knight]

I finally got around to watching this season. I've enjoyed everyone's thoughts. Something I haven't seen mentioned yet...there's been some talk about Helly being cruel and/or having the potential for cruelty - her look at Gemma at the end, what Jame says about seeing Keir in Helly.

Here's what I find interesting about all that: Irv said in the ORTBO episode that he knew it was Helena and not Helly because Helly was never cruel. Much more recently, Dylan pointed out to Helly that while Irv knew it was Helena, Mark couldn't tell the difference.

This, to me, suggests that Helly's potential for cruelty only emerged after ORTBO and perhaps in response to the fallout from ORTBO. After Mark S. told her he'd had sex with Helena thinking she was Helly, she had that breakdown. I always found it a bit off the way she approached Mark afterwards and elided her breakdown and instead said what actually bothered her was not getting to have her own memory and experience of being with Mark. But when Dylan brought up Mark not being able to tell the difference, Helly was visibly hurt by that, to the point that Dylan commented on his own cruelty in saying that to her.

Was Helly learning cruelty, becoming more Helena-like, sort of a weird subconscious way of excusing Mark for not being able to tell the difference between them? "Hey, we're not actually different really, so it's not a big deal he didn't know it wasn't me!"

[Affogato]

On 5/8/2025 at 6:45 AM, Black Knight said:

I finally got around to watching this season. I've enjoyed everyone's thoughts. Something I haven't seen mentioned yet...there's been some talk about Helly being cruel and/or having the potential for cruelty - her look at Gemma at the end, what Jame says about seeing Keir in Helly.

Here's what I find interesting about all that: Irv said in the ORTBO episode that he knew it was Helena and not Helly because Helly was never cruel. Much more recently, Dylan pointed out to Helly that while Irv knew it was Helena, Mark couldn't tell the difference.

This, to me, suggests that Helly's potential for cruelty only emerged after ORTBO and perhaps in response to the fallout from ORTBO. After Mark S. told her he'd had sex with Helena thinking she was Helly, she had that breakdown. I always found it a bit off the way she approached Mark afterwards and elided her breakdown and instead said what actually bothered her was not getting to have her own memory and experience of being with Mark. But when Dylan brought up Mark not being able to tell the difference, Helly was visibly hurt by that, to the point that Dylan commented on his own cruelty in saying that to her.

Was Helly learning cruelty, becoming more Helena-like, sort of a weird subconscious way of excusing Mark for not being able to tell the difference between them? "Hey, we're not actually different really, so it's not a big deal he didn't know it wasn't me!"

I don’t think so. I think the face to face with Helena’s father cemented her desire to not go back to that life. I do think she shows her executive potential by being able to make decisions under pressure, like suicide and pushing Mark for sex. I think she made his decision for him. I’m not sure she was wrong, either, if you think of innieMark, who is the Mark she knows. There is no reason outieMark should mean much to her, and outieGemma is out.  

Toying with innieMark’s affections, as Helena, was cruel. Helly’s mayed a weighted decision.

I think this would make a good end to the story, because they are running off into the sunset.  Remember the end of Bladerunner. You never know how long you have.

[lidarose9]

It took me months to watch season 2 cuz I found season 1 so upsetting. For some reason, the splitting off of "work self" from "real self" hit hard and broke my heart. I had to watch it in small chunks.

Anyhow, I just finished season 2 and I'm done with this show. It's super frustrating when a show has such an original and well-realized premise and then loses itself. What held tight together in season 1 unfrayed in season 2. Sadly, about half of what they did in s2 was fantastic. I absolutely LOVED the development of Dylan and Mark's relationships with their alters. In spite of some quibbling, I loved how they unfurled Irving's evolving selfhood, in and out. I was entranced watching Cobel's "will she or won't she" development. So much of it was so so good.

But overall it just fell flat for me, with boiling the story down to some kind of rom-com bullshit amidst uneven world-building. It's a lot to ask viewers to swallow the "magic numbers on a screen communicate emotional ESP with a remote loved one" bullshit. That is an awful lot of hand-wave. The episode where it went off the rails for me was when they went hiking/camping. What an absolute waste of time, really. And so much going in for the weird for the sake of weird shit. Don't need it, plenty of it in the real world these days. I needed some more/better info about who and what Lumon is, where and how. Basic common sense. Why was the parking lot entirely empty the last few long shots of the building? Where was the mysterious silent Board in this season? What's the deal with Cobel's hometown? Ether? I mean, wtf, really? If that some kind of reference to the internet? Anyhow, at some point I ceased to care.
 

[lidarose9]

On 3/24/2025 at 3:02 PM, ombre said:

There's a super-important scholar of Haitian history, Michel-rolph truillot, who argues that revolution in Haiti was "unthinkable" - as in, it was too utterly horrifying (to white folks) to bear thinking on. If they ever really reckoned with the fact that they were outnumbered in *insane* ratios by people who they tortured and killed with utter impunity, they would be reduced to quivering balls of fear and panic. So they just didn't think about it. A number of people who look at the literature of the period point out ways that this terror runs under the surface of, well, almost all of it. Think of Bertha Mason Rochester in Jane eyre. 

I really enjoyed reading your thoughts about slavery, ombre. Unthinkable -- in the same way it was unthinkable to fly a plane into a building before 9/11. Years ago I saw a wonderful play about the slave uprising in Haiti, unfortunately I can't remember the name but it certainly stayed with me. Anyhow thanks for sharing.