S02.E09: The After Hours

[lovett1979]

1 hour ago, Ottis said:

Cobel trying for a "gold thimble," some sort of goofy Lumon award for serving the family well, I guess. I chuckled because it reminded me of so many "awards" corporations give employees for the same thing.

Nope. That exchange is taken from the Twilight Zone episode that this episode takes its title from. So I don’t believe there is a literal gold thimble here, but this is all code or secret passwords of some sort. The Twilight Zone ep is about mannequins that come to life and get to live in the real world, but only for a short time. Hmm…

[Ottis]

16 minutes ago, Dev F said:

didn't find myself confused when the show portrayed Gretchen as frustrated and discontent, considering it's portrayed her husband as lazy and disconnected, eager to spend money the family doesn't have on things they don't need, and unable to hold down a job pre-Lumon.

"He reminds me of how you used to be!" is a pretty elegant explanation for what's going on here.

That was a few eps ago. Now we see that he has a job, as much as Mark S has a job, and goes to work where his innie does the work. Dylan does what Mark does. So he doesn't seem to be lazy. We have also now seen him a couple of times being a father with the kids. Again, not disconnected.

So my point remains, what is the source of Gretchen's criticism? Especially considering that her preferred innie Dylan could not have taken her anywhere nor could they have done anything aside from talk. And my assumption remains, "you're not being romantic." He's just not treating Gretchen the way she wants, and in those cases, the issue could be both people, not only one.

20 minutes ago, Dev F said:

The "gold thimble" is not an award. Cobel and the security guard were exchanging code phrases:

Thanks for that. I noted the reference, but that discussion didn't interest me. I think having a corporate award called "A Golden Thimble" is much more intriguing than quoting a 60yo TV show (which I enjoyed and own, but I like new ideas).

 

[Affogato]

58 minutes ago, Ottis said:

That was a few eps ago. Now we see that he has a job, as much as Mark S has a job, and goes to work where his innie does the work. Dylan does what Mark does. So he doesn't seem to be lazy. We have also now seen him a couple of times being a father with the kids. Again, not disconnected.

So my point remains, what is the source of Gretchen's criticism? Especially considering that her preferred innie Dylan could not have taken her anywhere nor could they have done anything aside from talk. And my assumption remains, "you're not being romantic." He's just not treating Gretchen the way she wants, and in those cases, the issue could be both people, not only one.

Thanks for that. I noted the reference, but that discussion didn't interest me. I think having a corporate award called "A Golden Thimble" is much more intriguing than quoting a 60yo TV show (which I enjoyed and own, but I like new ideas).

 

Gretchen doesn’t prefer innie Dylan, she is oddly attracted to Dylan without the baggage. Go figure. The baggage is real, though, and they could use some couples therapy. Odylan and Gretchen aren’t getting what they need. Gretchen response to an impossible romantic scenario and  oDylan test drives cars he can’t afford. 

Edited March 16 by Affogato

[Milburn Stone]

On 3/14/2025 at 3:02 PM, AstridM said:

I won’t continue to be strung along for another 8 seasons, ffs. 

I think TPTB are planning to give us 5 seasons, based on this season coming to us from "Fifth Season Productions."

[gibasi]

This show started off strong but has gotten lost in its own aesthetic and mystery for mystery's sake. It's become all about atmosphere and the perfect camera shot-cars on empty highways, empty sterile hallways, ominous Cobell closeups,etc. Now it is referencing Twilight Zone? I just want them to to get on with it already. 

[aghst]

4 hours ago, Affogato said:

I did notice Miss Huang was picked up by a driver and Helena has a driver. I thought he had likely driven people to bad ends but also some people to work. But be felt guilt when some of the people he drove disappeared without a trace. 

One theory I saw was that Burt drove people and then  they flipped the switch and an Innie Burt killed them.

So Outie Burt would be technically truthful in saying he never hurt people.

But there is a new goon or driver, the one that Harmony saw when she went to confront Helena and then she saw the goon and backed away, got in her car and sped away.

[AstridM]

2 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

I think TPTB are planning to give us 5 seasons, based on this season coming to us from "Fifth Season Productions."

I know, I was talking about The Blacklist. 

[arc]

3 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

I think TPTB are planning to give us 5 seasons, based on this season coming to us from "Fifth Season Productions."

According to Wikipedia, the name was chosen to refer to harvest season.

[ombre]

Rewatched the season one episode where helly gets her turn in the break room tonight. The parallels to milchick's encounter with Drummond are stark. Helly starting to crack and telling Milchick directly "I'm sorry" and him sternly telling her not to paraphrase. And here we get Milchick forced to paraphrase and eventually refusing. 

I meant to say this wrt the ep with Milchick punishing himself and now I'm forgetting which one it was, so I'll say it here: the thing I was most fascinated by in his self-reeducation scene was that, yes, he dumbed down his beloved baroque language, but in doing so also he totally changed its meaning. There's a world of difference between "grow up" and "grow." and in a world about a rampant - and presumably capitalist - megacorp, it feels like perverting one idea into the idea at the root of all capitalism - growth. Growth at any cost. 

There's a paragraph somewhere in Frederick douglass's writings  describing how abuse in slavery trickles down and also creates a world in which people don't know how to regulate their own emotions without just taking their bad mood out in someone else. Everybody feels helpless in the face of the system and takes it out on the creature who can't fight back until finally, at the very bottom of the hierarchy, the slave kicks the dog. Milchick gets so stuck with his feelings of being stuck between all the layers of Lumon idiocy, and we really want him to just tell Drummond to devour feculence, but no... He has to also force miss huang to give up childish things. He can't just punch up, he also kicks the dog. 

Ever since last week I've been curious if there is a larger purpose to miss huang's role than just a stand-in for what Cobel might have been like as a child. If she's fully gone, then yes, I guess that's all she is. But I'll be curious to see if she gets to do more, gets to bite back at Milchick. 

 

 

[arc]

One thing that struck me about the Milchick-Drummond scene was how Drummond told him to "apologize", Milchick said "I apologize" and then Drummond insisted on an even shorter word even though Drummond had just used "apologize" a moment ago. It was so contemptuous. A microagression so large it became a macroagression.

[desertflower]

On 3/15/2025 at 3:41 PM, AstridM said:

I’m guessing you have very strong opinions on nature vs nurture, then?

No, I actually don’t. I just think if I was severed I would probably just assume my innie would be like me. I’d be curious about differences I guess, but I wouldn’t automatically jump to the conclusion that my innie is totally different. 

[dwmarch]

I loved how when Milchick was telling Drummond off he said "monosyllabically" with such pristine snark and then proceeded to lay out how fucked Drummond was, one syllable at a time.

[Dev F]

14 hours ago, Ottis said:

That was a few eps ago. Now we see that he has a job, as much as Mark S has a job, and goes to work where his innie does the work. Dylan does what Mark does. So he doesn't seem to be lazy.

Or, from another perspective, he goes down in an elevator and comes up two second later having done nothing. It's not crazy for Gretchen to question Dylan's work ethic—especially after meeting the other Dylan who actually does the work her husband gets paid for and realizing how different they are.

11 hours ago, gibasi said:

This show started off strong but has gotten lost in its own aesthetic and mystery for mystery's sake. It's become all about atmosphere and the perfect camera shot-cars on empty highways, empty sterile hallways, ominous Cobell closeups,etc. Now it is referencing Twilight Zone? I just want them to to get on with it already. 

The Twilight Zone references took up roughly ten seconds of screen time and doubled as a necessary plot point: Cobel has to be critical to Mark and Devon entering the birthing cabins or their alliance is pointless, so we see her using Lumon's dirty secrets and security protocols to get them past a checkpoint.

And Severance episodes have no fixed running time anyway, so it's not like the episode even had to choose between that reference and ten seconds of something else.

Edited March 17 by Dev F

[Affogato]

It is possible that oDylan is someone who works hard and has just been beaten down by life. 

9 hours ago, ombre said:

Rewatched the season one episode where helly gets her turn in the break room tonight. The parallels to milchick's encounter with Drummond are stark. Helly starting to crack and telling Milchick directly "I'm sorry" and him sternly telling her not to paraphrase. And here we get Milchick forced to paraphrase and eventually refusing. 

I meant to say this wrt the ep with Milchick punishing himself and now I'm forgetting which one it was, so I'll say it here: the thing I was most fascinated by in his self-reeducation scene was that, yes, he dumbed down his beloved baroque language, but in doing so also he totally changed its meaning. There's a world of difference between "grow up" and "grow." and in a world about a rampant - and presumably capitalist - megacorp, it feels like perverting one idea into the idea at the root of all capitalism - growth. Growth at any cost. 

There's a paragraph somewhere in Frederick douglass's writings  describing how abuse in slavery trickles down and also creates a world in which people don't know how to regulate their own emotions without just taking their bad mood out in someone else. Everybody feels helpless in the face of the system and takes it out on the creature who can't fight back until finally, at the very bottom of the hierarchy, the slave kicks the dog. Milchick gets so stuck with his feelings of being stuck between all the layers of Lumon idiocy, and we really want him to just tell Drummond to devour feculence, but no... He has to also force miss huang to give up childish things. He can't just punch up, he also kicks the dog. 

Ever since last week I've been curious if there is a larger purpose to miss huang's role than just a stand-in for what Cobel might have been like as a child. If she's fully gone, then yes, I guess that's all she is. But I'll be curious to see if she gets to do more, gets to bite back at Milchick. 

 

 

I wonder if Miss Huang will run into Irving. 

[KarenX]

16 hours ago, ombre said:

Ever since last week I've been curious if there is a larger purpose to miss huang's role than just a stand-in for what Cobel might have been like as a child. If she's fully gone, then yes, I guess that's all she is. But I'll be curious to see if she gets to do more, gets to bite back at Milchick. 

Or if Milchick gets to “rescue” her.

[ombre]

This is a beautiful, insightful interview with the actor who plays Gretchen.  NYMag does dumb things with paywalls, but for the moment I can open this link in an incognito window (when things get popular they lock them and put up a note that says that you've looked at too many articles... whether or not you've ever been to the site, so if you think you're interested, read sooner rather than later.)  https://www.vulture.com/article/severance-merritt-wever-gretchen-dylan-g-breakup-s2e9.html

 

I've been struck, as everybody discusses Dylan and Gretchen, by just how much their relationship is in the eye of the beholder.  Some people see him as The Problem, others see her as The Problem.  This spare style of storytelling allows such room for interpretation.  

 

I've got to say, as someone who loves thinking about this show, I've been fascinated by how much I *don't* feel moved to discuss this episode.  More than any other, it has felt like it is simply moving pieces into position for the next one.  But the episode made a specific effort to move people off the board, which interests me.  Are they gone for good or is this the start of a new chapter for them?  I don't think Irving is gone for good.  His storyline seems too filled with interesting possibilities.  I assume we will now see more of Burt's dark past.   Honestly, I assume he is the one who kidnapped Gemma, just because that seems like the kind of efficient storytelling that the show likes.  I don't much care if Miss Huang is gone for good - she's been with us to highlight Milchick's impossible position and to shed light on young Cobel.  If there are other places where she might be useful, I'm sure she'll come back.  Otherwise, it seemed like she was a useful tool, but one whose use is done. 

Which leaves us with Dylan.  I don't think Dylan is gone for good, but I'm very curious to see how his story moves forward from here.  Both innie and outie seem pretty stoked to kill off innie Dylan, so what force could change that course?  I've long been interested in the fact that we know much less of Dylan's life than we do of anyone else's.  Much of his story is told by implication and, as I mentioned above, left to the viewer to interpret through the lens of their own life experience.  And his story seems the most "normal" of all the stories (not an heiress to a megacorp, not a secret saboteur, not a man whose essence has been devoured by grief for someone who has been turned into a secret guinea pig for the important and mysterious work.  Dylan is just a dude.  Does he remain just a dude (I mean, there's always got to be a Just a Dude, right?  The hobbits, the Peter Quince and Nick Bottom, the everyday joes for us mere groundlings to identify with.), or is there something else?  Or does this moment serve as a catalyst to turn him into something else?  Perhaps we will see...

 

[Rahul]

On 3/20/2025 at 10:17 AM, ombre said:

Which leaves us with Dylan.  I don't think Dylan is gone for good, but I'm very curious to see how his story moves forward from here.  Both innie and outie seem pretty stoked to kill off innie Dylan, so what force could change that course?  I've long been interested in the fact that we know much less of Dylan's life than we do of anyone else's.  

My viewing partner and I would be elated to never see the mouth breathing Dylan again. Zack Cherry seems to to be limited to very few facial expressions, the default being a blank face with his mouth agape and his glasses hanging off the bridge of his nose. We find him equally annoying as a host on the Great American Baking Show. 

[paramitch]

Helena swimming in the blue water of her pool made me wonder if she is somehow becoming or tapping further into Helly -- who is so associated with blue. (Beautiful observation, @Affogato , that she is literally swimming in "deep waters.")

I was happy Gretchen was so honest with DylanO, although I was frustrated at his reaction and that he didn't try to actually talk to her. I do think it's apparent that he is static and checked out of life and their marriage in general. I totally understood why she felt something for his Innie and wish she could have expressed that to him.

Oh, poor innie Dylan! His declaration of love and his poor little cardboard ring broke me. The Innies are so vulnerable and fragile.

I loved the final scene between Irv and Burt, even though as always I am always so tense and scared for Irv lately. But what a beautiful scene, with Burt admitting to wanting to be "innocent" again, and with Irv being so brave and admitting his loneliness and disconnection! Aghghg. John Turturro is so good in this role. I love Irv's careful enunciation -- this elegance to the way he speaks. Meanwhile, I'm scared for his train ride and don't understand how he can just leave like this (as most here have wondered) with no baggage of any kind -- nothing? But at least he has his dog. 

What's interesting about the show for me is that -- as we saw with Gretchen's confusion about Innie and Outie Dylan -- it is as much about how work "kills" our best selves and how we lose our joy as we go through life. The innies still have joy, they still feel something. They aren't crushed by failure and insecurity and parental expectation and grief.

Speaking of which... 

Papa Eagan scares the crap out of me. When he showed up like that to Helly in that darkened office? I may have peed a little. 

ON TO THE FINALE!

On 3/14/2025 at 9:56 PM, Dev F said:

I sort of think the point is that it was never going to be meaningful. That's the subtext of the references to The Twilight Zone episode "The After Hours" that @arc and @dwmarch pointed out. They were mannequins pretending to be real people, but now their time is up and they have to go back to being mannequins again. Their too-simple feelings can't endure sustained contact with the harsh realities of the outside world.

The same theme runs through the other storylines as well, from Irving and Burt wanting some kind of redemption through the innocent love of their innies but being driven apart by Irv's betrayals and Burt's crimes, to Milchick cruelly dismissing Miss Huang from her internship by emphasizing that it's time for her to put away childish things, and even to Milchick himself giving up on simple words and groveling apologies and demanding that Mr. Drummond "devour feculence" and show him the respect he's earned.

This is an incredibly thought-provoking and helpful analysis. I do hope you're wrong about the limited time for the Innies... I care about all of them so much. I want them to be able to live in some kind of way.

On 3/15/2025 at 2:53 AM, arc said:

Except for that attempted guilt trip move where outie Dylan said he was about to go to work to earn money and provide for the family. He's going to the office, but it'll be innie Dylan who'll be doing the work.

Exactly! This was what I wanted Gretchen to say, too. It's certainly heavily implied that the only reason outie Dylan is even succeeding at this particular job (at last) is that he is not the one actually doing it -- it's Innie Dylan!

On 3/15/2025 at 8:37 AM, Affogato said:

He did, but his marriage is probably not great. When was the last time Gretchen and oDylan had a moment?

Yeah, the glimpses we have had of their life always seem to involve Outie Dylan kind of semi-comatose with kids, TV, etc., and just kind of sparkless and checked out. Gretchen seems weary and sad at home as well.

On 3/15/2025 at 8:41 AM, ombre said:

I am so in awe of the way set and costume and casting and acting work together in the scenes in milchick's office. They have chosen colors that are so *stunningly* beautiful with his complexion - the deep blue of the walls and the rich browns of the wood desk. The set gives him this regalness. But that teeeeeny tiny picture of the iceberg (contrasted with the missing triptych from cobel's reign) gives such insight into his powerlessness. Two scenes of his "subordinates" being utterly insubordinate to him there and he's ready to go. TT has done such a fine job all season of showing milchick's inner strength in the face of absurdity and abuse. It is such a joy watching him finally use that strength. 

These are terrific observations -- what always strikes me in Milchick's scenes is the incredibly rich blue of his office. He almost glows against that background.

I would like to think the worm is turning and Milchick is finally rebelling, I just don't trust anyone at this point.

On 3/15/2025 at 1:41 PM, Affogato said:

I continue to think Drummond is an Eagan. I wonder about the egg ritual and if it is an indication of purity. 

The egg ritual seemed to me to tie right back in with all the repeated issues and themes of birth and rebirth throughout this season. Also, cutting it and arranging it into a "flower" of identical pieces was interesting. "Severed" pieces?

Also, sheesh, poor Helena -- ONE egg and that's breakfast? ONE EGG? And possibly just the egg whites? Watching her cut the egg into little tiny bites was so creepy and sad. Like a chastised child not allowed to eat until they are full.

On 3/15/2025 at 2:39 PM, maddie965 said:

I do like that, but where's the explanation we need and deserve? Like someone said above, why haven't Mark and Devon made her answer all the hard questions? Or at least explain what she plans to do? Come on, show!!!

Irv can't be gone. He's the heart of the show. We need him. I need him.

I thoroughly love and enjoy the show, but I admit that I started getting angry this episode because people weren't talking like they would actually talk. Why the hell haven't we seen Mark and Devon ask Miss Cobel the ten thousand zillion questions they would be asking in real life?

Or maybe they did and because of the way Cobel speaks, it just took ten hours for the scene. She's like one of Tolkien's Ents. She speaks so deliberately and slowly it takes her a year to say "Good morning."

On 3/15/2025 at 5:12 PM, seank941 said:

I do hope we find out why Gemma is so important. I know why she's important to Mark, but it's hard to care about her compared to Irving or Burt.

I want her rescued because what we saw that she is going through is horrific and no person should suffer that. But I don't really care much about her beyond that. I am much more invested in Helly and Mark's Innie than in Mark's Outie and Gemma.

On 3/16/2025 at 12:06 AM, arc said:

I dunno, on the other hand we could assume outie Irving's detective work was on point and he had very accurately determined what Burt's role was. Certainly that seemed to be how Burt took it. There's still some ambiguity because I think normally we would expect low-level goons to be the killers, not just the drivers.

Oh wait, I just had a brainwave: maybe Burt's victims weren't killed, but merely turned into permanent innies. Not that this is much better for the victims, but it would explain why Burt didn't handle that part: he's not a brain surgeon.

edit: little tiny detail, but file it in the ongoing list of anachronisms: Mark's phone isn't just an Android phone, but it has a headphone jack. Of course there are billions of smartphones in the real world with headphone jacks, but new-ish ones of the last four-five years have mostly eschewed them.

Burt did seem to actually feel something for Irv, though. He really did. To me that's why he couldn't take any action against Irv... or so I'd like to think. He did seem to genuinely try to save Irv here.

And on the loss of headphone jacks in phones, I hate it so much! I'm hard of hearing and not having a headphone jack is so frustrating. I've bought those other devices that plug in through the charging port but they don't work as well, honestly.

On 3/16/2025 at 6:53 AM, Dev F said:

I didn't find myself confused when the show portrayed Gretchen as frustrated and discontent, considering it's portrayed her husband as lazy and disconnected, eager to spend money the family doesn't have on things they don't need, and unable to hold down a job pre-Lumon.

"He reminds me of how you used to be!" is a pretty elegant explanation for what's going on here.

This, exactly. It's exactly why Gretchen was attracted to kind, pure, Dylan, who still feels something about life and love.