S07.12: Carnal Knowledge

[GHScorpiosRule]

Quote

After a heated meeting, Lord John's circumstances take a turn. An extraordinary deed merits an offer from Gen. George Washington.

I’m just gonna say this as the synopsis doesn’t even address the fallout of Claire and Lord John short marriage and their having sex and Jamie’s learning about it!🙄😒

I feel like a non-buik reader because I Swear, I don’t remember half the stuff that happened in this episode from the buik!

Like, wasn’t Jamie told that Lord John and Claire married and WHY? Instead that’s left out on both their parts when telling Jamie that they were, to use Lord John’s words: “FUCKING YOU!”

Both Jamie and William were ARSEHOLES, but William was the bigger one.

David Berry had me laughing in the beginning as Lord John and Jamie “escaped” and then blurted out he had had sex with Claire.😂😂😂 He’s been so stoic as adult Lord John, that tonight, I saw shades of that 16 year ago we met in season two.

I don’t remember if he was arrested in the buik or not. Or William having Wee Ian arrested, the SOD.

At least Lord John’s eye isn’t hanging out of his socket or bulging as was described in the buik!

But yay! George Washington!

 

Edited December 17 by GHScorpiosRule

[areca]

Yanno, the man who lovingly raised your son when you could not, probably has rights to fuck your/his wife at least once as long as it wasn't rape.

That will be all.

[Haleth]

I think this epi was written to show how similar Jamie and William are- they could both be massive jerks when their feelings got hurt. Instead of waiting for an explanation they both storm off and break things.  Like chandeliers and John’s face.

Good epi for David Berry. 

[nodorothyparker]

So much of this episode is lifted straight off the page yet still managed to burn through a good chunk of the first third of book eight without a lot of the meandering and "well, huh" overexplaining Gabaldon is so prone to in these big long later books. Book Jamie knows Lord John married Claire and why because he first went to Fergus and Marsali who are also in Philadelphia and they filled him in on the whole dead and lost at sea thing and oh yeah, she's at Lord John's. But since Fergus and Marsali seem to have vanished into the ether show wise, I guess we're to assume he heard about the Euterpe and connected the dots from there.

This episode was really a tour de force for David Berry finally being given more to do than look sadly longing and benevolent as he supports whatever the Frasers are up to this week and Charles Vandervaart in getting to show that he was cast for more than just his plausibly looking like he could be the product of Jamie and Geneva. Some of Berry's line readings were killing me as he was nailing just how absurd yet how very dangerous he finds the situation he's now in. It was also a nice reminder that for as very British cultured aristocrat almost to the point of foppish Lord John can sometimes be, he had also been a very capable longtime soldier. Both book and show Lord John are very aware that he provoked Jamie's reaction but did it anyway because he'd just experienced this hugely traumatic loss and propping up Claire and by extension the Frasers and Fraser hangers on and needed acknowledgement of that rather than immediately reverting back to the usual unrequited feelings and raising Jamie's kid for him and thanks for playing, Lord John.

I know it's a lot to come back to and he's got a lot on his plate at the moment, but Jamie is frankly the real asshole in all this. He beats the hell out of his friend who has been cleaning up after him almost as long as they've known each other before abandoning him and drops this huge lifetime secret on William and is immediately out the door with barely more than a so sorry about that. And then doesn't really give him another thought until he has to go call him off Ian. He's spent five books up to this point alternatively pining and compartmentalizing over this kid but can't spare a moment in all his running hither and yon to really consider that he's just blown that kid's entire identity and place in the world apart or worry if he's okay. William's doing plenty of raging and lashing out everyone and generally acting like a raw nerve but I appreciate that the show added his line to Claire about how everyone in his life has lied to him because it's really the entire crux of the matter and something that's only articulated on the page in dribs and drabs over hundreds of pages. Everyone lied to him. In a system of peerage where everything about your identity is set at birth due to the circumstances of that birth, everything he's ever known to be true about himself is a lie. Jamie isn't really much better to Claire, acting like he thinks she and Lord John cheated on him and not that they were both figuratively bleeding out over him, even if it ends with them inappropriately going at it on his "good friend's" dining room table.

The introduction of Jane and the actress playing her was terrific.

Edited December 14 by nodorothyparker

[Ziggy]

7 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

I know it's a lot to come back to and he's got a lot on his plate at the moment, but Jamie is frankly the real asshole in all this. He beats the hell of his friend who has been cleaning up after him almost as long as they've known each other before abandoning him and drops this huge lifetime secret on William and is immediately out the door with barely more than a so sorry about that. And then doesn't really give him another thought until he has to go call him off Ian. He's spent five books up to this point alternatively pining and compartmentalizing over this kid but can't spare a moment in all his running hither and yon to really consider that he's just blown that kid's entire identity and place in the world apart or worry if he's okay. William's doing plenty of raging and lashing out everyone and generally acting like a raw nerve but I appreciate that the show added his line to Claire about how everyone in his life has lied to him because it's really the entire crux of the matter and something that's only articulated on the page in dribs and drabs over hundreds of pages. Everyone lied to him. In a system of peerage where everything about your identity is set at birth due to the circumstances of that birth, everything he's ever known to be true about himself is a lie. Jamie isn't really much better to Claire, acting like he thinks she and Lord John cheated on him and not that they were both figuratively bleeding out over him, even if it ends with them inappropriately going at it on his "good friend's" dining room table.

The introduction of Jane and the actress playing her was terrific.

Charles Vandervaart absolutely blew my mind as William in this episode!  Wow, did he nail all the feelings.  Incredible!!!

He made it all so real - the pain and betrayal, the realization that he's not only not a Grey but also not really a Ransom.  He kept talking about how Jamie was a Jacobite Traitor.  I think that was just one of the easiest ways he could think of to describe the horror he was feeling.  I know those words enraged Ian, as they should, but they so perfectly encompassed the madness going on inside his head.

It felt like William always had this hostility towards Jamie in the books, which I could sort of understand but also thought was kind of extreme.  After seeing the scene where Jamie confronts William and releases Ian, I was suddenly on William's side.  Those types of moments are all William ever really gets from Jamie.  Yes, they're in the middle of a war and people are dealing with crises left and right, but William never gets a chance to have a relationship with Jamie.  It's hard to blame him for his bitterness.

Loved meeting Jane!  From the moment we saw her, I was thinking, "Is this Jane?.  Is this Jame?"  I think I squealed when she said her name!

18 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

David Berry had me laughing in the beginning as Lord John and Jamie “escaped” and then blurted out he had had sex with Claire.😂😂😂

 

It's very different seeing this, rather than reading it.  I was shocked at how he blurted that out.  I thought, too soon!!!  But then, to me, everything is happening really fast compared to reading it in the book.

18 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

At least Lord John’s eye isn’t hanging out of his socket or bulging as was described in the buik!

They did an amazing job with the make-up, and I really wanted to look away but couldn't.  It was kind of gross!

The way Denny described the bones and the optic muscles ... I don't know that we're out of the woods on this one.  I'm not interested in seeing what Claire did in the book!

Edited December 15 by Ziggy

[Jodithgrace]

I don’t think that William has ever forgiven Jamie for deserting him when he was a young boy who idolized him. Jamie had to leave, but a six year old couldn’t really understand that, especially since he couldn’t be given the real reason. 
So once he realized that Jamie was the kind groom who left him, it became hard to forgive him for anything, especially since that groom is his father!

[areca]

David Berry and Charles Vandervaart were the epic stars of this episode, and both of them brought their A+ game.  I loved that we got to see the sarcastic, devil-take-it-all kid that still hides under John's cultured and restrained exterior.

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, nodorothyparker said:

Book Jamie knows Lord John married Claire and why because he first went to Fergus and Marsali who are also in Philadelphia and they filled him in on the whole dead and lost at sea thing and oh yeah, she's at Lord John's. But since Fergus and Marsali seem to have vanished into the ether show wise,

I wonder if they didn’t even have Jamie tell them he knew they had to get married just so Jamie could look like the ARSEHOLE here?

And before Lord John confessed, Jamie mentioned something about how he didn’t want to be searched. Yet we never saw or were shown what he was hiding?

Puir, puir William. Yeah, I don’t care. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I have a cold black heart. I never cared for buik!William, and I can take or leave ShowWilliam.

[areca]

17 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

And before Lord John confessed, Jamie mentioned something about how he didn’t want to be searched. Yet we never saw or were shown what he was hiding?

Uh, it was the major plot point which led to Jamie's promotion to General and being given assignment of a whole battalion...

[nodorothyparker]

3 hours ago, Ziggy said:

Charles Vandervaart absolutely blew my mind as William in this episode!  Wow, did he nail at the feelings.  Incredible!!!

He made it all so real - the pain and betrayal, the realization that he's not only not a Grey but also not really a Ransom.  He kept talking about how Jamie was a Jacobite Traitor.  I think that was just one of the easiest ways he could think of to describe the horror he was feeling.  I know those words enraged Ian, as they should, but they so perfectly encompassed the madness going on inside his head.

It felt like William always had this hostility towards Jamie in the books, which I could sort of understand but also thought was kind of extreme.  After seeing the scene where Jamie confronts William and releases Ian, I was suddenly on William's side.  Those types of moments are all William ever really gets from Jamie.  Yes, they're in the middle of a war and people are dealing with crises left and right, but William never gets a chance to have a relationship with Jamie.  It's hard to blame him for his bitterness.

I was really struck by this too. I know one of the common opinions among many bookreaders is that William is a tiresome brat in this section of the story, but seeing it so well done onscreen really puts a lot of his anger into perspective.  I've always been a bit bugged that book Jamie drops this huge A bomb on him and then as far as William's concerned disappears for chapters until he has to go take William by the scruff of the neck to call him off Ian. And then he's fairly cold about it. There's no look, I get you're damn furious with me but don't take it out on Ian or anyone else. Yes, you have a right to be angry. But I'm here when you're ready to hear the real story on all this. William gets none of that. Jamie literally pops up out of nowhere, threatens him to make him back down (which Book William was on the verge of doing anyway as he was cooling down and starting to think rationally), and then disappears again.

I do realize William probably isn't in a place to really hear it in that moment and Jamie's long been so closed off on the subject of the son he couldn't claim that it probably doesn't occur to him, but the cat's out of the bag now and it might have gone a long way in taking some of the fire out of the situation. In the most recent book, Jamie is both handwringing that William has been floundering so badly and that's why he never should have found out and and at another point that he really hopes William gets over his anger at him while he's still alive to see it. All I could think when I read it was you really haven't made much effort toward him since you dumped this grenade on him and then left him to figure it out, what did you expect? Claire and Brianna have each been more proactive toward William than he has.

Edited December 14 by nodorothyparker

[bluestocking]

I thought Jane had a little sister?  Maybe she's been dropped or maybe she'll turn up later.  

[Jodithgrace]

Well, we haven’t gotten to the major Jane subplot, so there is plenty of time for Fanny to make an appearance, though, like Jenny in America, she might be dropped for lack of time. 

[Cdh20]

3 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I wonder if they didn’t even have Jamie tell them he knew they had to get married just so Jamie could look like the ARSEHOLE here?

And before Lord John confessed, Jamie mentioned something about how he didn’t want to be searched. Yet we never saw or were shown what he was hiding?

Puir, puir William. Yeah, I don’t care. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I have a cold black heart. I never cared for buik!William, and I can take or leave ShowWilliam.

He showed what he was hiding (a letter from France) when he went to the camp & talked to the soldier in charge & then Washington.

[Quickbeam]

David Berry acted the crap out of this episode. Better than the book, I say. 

[taanja]

On 12/14/2024 at 12:38 PM, areca said:

Uh, it was the major plot point which led to Jamie's promotion to General and being given assignment of a whole battalion...

I think I'm in the book thread but I don't care.

As a viewer -- that was completely ambiguous!  I watched that scene more than once and still don't know why Jamie was suddenly promoted to brigadier general. He brought a ... letter? and boom! promotion! What was in the letter? 

I wondered the whole ep how Jamie heard about Claire and Lord John's marriage. I still do NOT know how much time passed between marriage and Jamie's return.

And in the book Lord John's eye was hanging out??? I am horrified! Jamie did that? To his 'best friend' ???? Whoa! Who needs enemies when James Fraser is your best friend! AMIRITE?

I will go away now.

[GHScorpiosRule]

3 minutes ago, taanja said:

I wondered the whole ep how Jamie heard about Claire and Lord John's marriage. I still do NOT know how much time passed between marriage and Jamie's return.

As @nodorothyparker stated upthread, Jaime was told about the marriage by Marsali and Fergus in the buik. But these showrunners are just zipping through and assume everyone's a reader, so of course non-readers are irked and annoyed.

Based on the show only and how the scenes have played out, I would say Jaime showed up the two days or so after they got married. Or maybe a week. I don't know how long after the marriage they had the party.

[nodorothyparker]

The show's not doing a very good job of making any of this clear. I more or less know because I really like this section of the books, but I'm not sure I'd have any idea otherwise.

The party in the book is a different society event than the Grey house party but it otherwise plays out pretty much the same. Claire remarks there that she's lived in Lord John's house for about a month at that point. The date on the chapter is about two months after the date of Jamie's last letter telling them he's about to set sail. Jamie returns in the next chapter, which isn't dated and never specifies how long it's been since the party.

It takes Jamie and Jenny a bit to get to Philadelphia because they can't immediately get another ship after the Euterpe sails without them. There is a war on, after all. They eventually do get passage on another ship but it lands somewhere in the south and then they have to figure out travel from there to Philadelphia. 

As Jamie was just in France and mentions having met with various French supporters, and this is about the point where the French entered the war, I assumed the letters he was carrying were about that.

Edited December 17 by nodorothyparker

[Ziggy]

9 hours ago, taanja said:

And in the book Lord John's eye was hanging out???

No.  That was an exaggeration.  It looked pretty much as it did in the show (excellent make-up job!), and was pretty much as Denzell described it.  Lord John has a broken bone, and the muscle that allows the eye to move is trapped by the bone.

[GHScorpiosRule]

18 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

The show's not doing a very good job of making any of this clear. I more or less know because I really like this section of the books, but I'm not sure I'd have any idea otherwise.

I blame Toni Graphia, who wrote the episode. She's been with the show since season one, and I'm sure she knows that not all who watch this show are buik readers. So it was pure laziness on her part. And those in the non-buik thread are rightly confused and irritated that the show didn't make it clear if Jamie even knows that Lord John and Claire are married.

Hell, all I remember from this buik is the marriage and Lord John's eye,

Rollo crossing the Rainbow Bridge

, and was it in Echo that Ian

kill that bastard that was blackmailing Claire

or did that happen in Buik 8?

[taanja]

On 12/16/2024 at 5:58 PM, nodorothyparker said:

The show's not doing a very good job of making any of this clear. I more or less know because I really like this section of the books, but I'm not sure I'd have any idea otherwise.

The party in the book is a different society event than the Grey house party but it otherwise plays out pretty much the same. Claire remarks there that she's lived in Lord John's house for about a month at that point. The date on the chapter is about two months after the date of Jamie's last letter telling them he's about to set sail. Jamie returns in the next chapter, which isn't dated and never specifies how long it's been since the party.

It takes Jamie and Jenny a bit to get to Philadelphia because they can't immediately get another ship after the Euterpe sails without them. There is a war on, after all. They eventually do get passage on another ship but it lands somewhere in the south and then they have to figure out travel from there to Philadelphia. 

As Jamie was just in France and mentions having met with various French supporters, and this is about the point where the French entered the war, I assumed the letters he was carrying were about that.

I'm glad I read this.

The show made it seem like everything took place in one day.

On one side we see Lord John and Claire get married - then the party - then the drunk sex 

and in another parallel scene we have Ian and whatshername discussing Ian's first marriage - which looked like it took place all in one day. So right there the timeline is confusing.

Then Jamie shows up and ... he knows John and Claire are married? or maybe not? it's ambiguous at best.

[mythoughtis]

Leaving Fanny out ( if she us) is another major plot departure -it’s the whole reason  Jane ends up where she does 

[nodorothyparker]

Fanny hasn't appeared at this point in the book either. We don't meet her until William does in the British army camp after everything has already happened. The actor playing William has name dropped both sisters in interviews, so we can assume she's coming.