Chit-Chat: The Feels

[bluegirl147]

16 minutes ago, Dimity said:

So much this.  It's insane the way I hear people trying to minimize the horrors that the Axis powers (let's not leave Japan out here) inflicted on the world.

 

It's scary how so many people have been convinced to have a different view of that war. Same goes for the Civil War.  It's not just southerners anymore who think it was a war of northern agression.

 

[Bastet]

Talk about young people not learning about the Holocaust in school or traditional media (and there not being many survivors left to share their stories), leaving them not just ignorant of history but the ways in which we're repeating it, reminded me of some thoughts I had after watching the documentary #Anne Frank Parallel Stories on Netflix.  It popped up as a recommendation several years ago, and I watch pretty much all (factual) Holocaust films that come my way, plus it features Helen Mirren reading passages from Frank's diary.  But that hashtag gave me pause.  And I was right.  I'll just paste what I posted in the Documentaries thread at the time and highlight the thoughts I was reminded of by this discussion:

But, oh dear, the hashtag is not just annoying in the title; part of the framing is some millennial silently traveling to various key locations in Frank's life and death, always posting photos to social media with painfully over-earnest reflections and hashtags for the world to solemnly nod along with.  Go away, random emo! 

The rest of the film intersperses (along with scholarly commentary providing historical background and drawing parallels between societal attitudes then and now) the thoughts written by Anne while in hiding with the present-day recollections of five Holocaust survivors who were around that same age when they were taken to the camps.  It's powerful testimony from a few of the remaining survivors, especially as they worry the world is already forgetting their stories. 

And while some may find Mirren overly theatrical in some of her readings, especially as juxtaposed with the survivors' accounts of their own adolescent experience, I think it works because she's not speaking as a contemporary looking back, she's speaking as a 14-year-old girl might have sounded in her own head when writing her feelings in real time.

So it's a good watch.  I just really can't stand the hashtag journey stuff (not to mention the fact I can barely make out the text of the social media posts on screen).  That probably means it's meant for a younger audience and - again with the worry this history is being lost at a time when it's so important to remember its lessons - I should just say whatever works. 

[Palimelon]

Quote

The same people lost their minds when they finally realized that Homelander on The Boys is supposed to be Trump. 

Every time a Trump fan who watches the show figures that out, an angel gets their wings.

[Anela]

6 minutes ago, Dimity said:

I can't recall offhand if we had any books set during WWI or II on the curriculum in my high school, but I came of age when there was a lot of children's fiction out there set, especially during WWII and many,  if not most, of these books are still in print.  For younger readers I would highly recommend When Hitler Stole Pink Rabbit by Judith Kerr.  

The Book Thief, was one of my favourite books. This is from a review, about the author:

Markus Zusak's parents grew up in Nazi Germany and Austria. He frequently thought of writing about the things his parents had seen during the war. He says he thought about the "importance of words in that time, and what they were able to make people believe and do."

[fairffaxx]

33 minutes ago, PRgal said:

Not about WWII (but WWI), but if anyone wants to learn about the horrors of war I highly suggest All Quiet on the Western Front.  It’s not from the ally side but German.

The first version of the movie was released in 1930, starring Lew Ayres, who said that it inspired him to register as a conscientious objector in WWII.  The movie is based on a 1929 novel by Erich Maria Remarque, who married Charlie Chaplin's ex-wife Paulette Goddard.  Trivia R Us!

[Palimelon]

While I wouldn't recommend it for younger readers, for those a bit older, Maus is an excellent comic book about the Holocaust.

So naturally, the school board of Tennessee banned it.

 

Edited November 24 by Palimelon

[bluegirl147]

5 minutes ago, Anela said:

The Book Thief, was one of my favourite books. This is from a review, about the author:

Markus Zusak's parents grew up in Nazi Germany and Austria. He frequently thought of writing about the things his parents had seen during the war. He says he thought about the "importance of words in that time, and what they were able to make people believe and do."

Words matter.  It's why Trump uses words like animals to describe immigrants.

[PRgal]

This is currently playing on AppleTV for those who have it.

 

 

[dargosmydaddy]

Just chiming in as a high school teacher (English, not history). In my small school, in a purplish town in a blue state, the students definitely learn about WWII and the Holocaust as part of the history curriculum, and there is also a Holocaust and Genocide elective class.

On the literature side of things, the Holocaust is definitely covered... Number the Stars is read in... fifth grade, I think? Night in middle school. I read The Book Thief with my freshmen honors class.

I in no way think that my district is representative of every district in the country... but I don't think it's an outlier, either. I would imagine most high schoolers are taught about World War II and the Holocaust in history class and have probably read at least one book set during it in their school career. Now, how deep the teachers go into it and how much students learn/ retain/ care/ see parallels to the present is a whole different story, but the idea that "it isn't taught anymore" or "there aren't enough books or movies available for people to read/ watch" seems like a huge overstatement.

[peacheslatour]

8 minutes ago, dargosmydaddy said:

Just chiming in as a high school teacher (English, not history). In my small school, in a purplish town in a blue state, the students definitely learn about WWII and the Holocaust as part of the history curriculum, and there is also a Holocaust and Genocide elective class.

On the literature side of things, the Holocaust is definitely covered... Number the Stars is read in... fifth grade, I think? Night in middle school. I read The Book Thief with my freshmen honors class.

I in no way think that my district is representative of every district in the country... but I don't think it's an outlier, either. I would imagine most high schoolers are taught about World War II and the Holocaust in history class and have probably read at least one book set during it in their school career. Now, how deep the teachers go into it and how much students learn/ retain/ care/ see parallels to the present is a whole different story, but the idea that "it isn't taught anymore" or "there aren't enough books or movies available for people to read/ watch" seems like a huge overstatement.

They used to do a very good job teaching about WWII. It wasn't until college that I saw the footage that our GIs took at Auschwitz and Buchenwald . I don't know if they even teach that anymore but they should.

[PRgal]

I am pretty sure kids at my son’s school are educated about the horrors of the Holocaust.  A good number of them are descendants of survivors.  

[bluegirl147]

11 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

They used to do a very good job teaching about WWII. It wasn't until college that I saw the footage that our GIs took at Auschwitz and Buchenwald . I don't know if they even teach that anymore but they should.

I wouldn't trust the right to not attack teaching that next.  I mean you know.  We don't want any budding Nazis here to feel bad.

[Dimity]

2 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

wouldn't trust the right to not attack teaching that next.  I mean you know.  We don't want any budding Nazis here to feel bad.

And    they won't want anyone learning about the Japanese internment camps and making connections.

Edited November 24 by Dimity

[Annber03]

1 hour ago, Bastet said:

Talk about young people not learning about the Holocaust in school or traditional media (and there not being many survivors left to share their stories), leaving them not just ignorant of history but the ways in which we're repeating it, reminded me of some thoughts I had after watching the documentary #Anne Frank Parallel Stories on Netflix.  It popped up as a recommendation several years ago, and I watch pretty much all (factual) Holocaust films that come my way, plus it features Helen Mirren reading passages from Frank's diary.  But that hashtag gave me pause.  And I was right.  I'll just paste what I posted in the Documentaries thread at the time and highlight the thoughts I was reminded of by this discussion:

But, oh dear, the hashtag is not just annoying in the title; part of the framing is some millennial silently traveling to various key locations in Frank's life and death, always posting photos to social media with painfully over-earnest reflections and hashtags for the world to solemnly nod along with.  Go away, random emo! 

The rest of the film intersperses (along with scholarly commentary providing historical background and drawing parallels between societal attitudes then and now) the thoughts written by Anne while in hiding with the present-day recollections of five Holocaust survivors who were around that same age when they were taken to the camps.  It's powerful testimony from a few of the remaining survivors, especially as they worry the world is already forgetting their stories. 

And while some may find Mirren overly theatrical in some of her readings, especially as juxtaposed with the survivors' accounts of their own adolescent experience, I think it works because she's not speaking as a contemporary looking back, she's speaking as a 14-year-old girl might have sounded in her own head when writing her feelings in real time.

So it's a good watch.  I just really can't stand the hashtag journey stuff (not to mention the fact I can barely make out the text of the social media posts on screen).  That probably means it's meant for a younger audience and - again with the worry this history is being lost at a time when it's so important to remember its lessons - I should just say whatever works. 

This sounds like a fascinating watch. Even if I likely would wind up agreeing with you on the hashtag element :p. Thanks for the mention. 

I remember reading a book once called, The Customer is (Not) Always Right, in which people who worked in customer service shared stories about dealing with stupid/obnoxious/ridiculous customers*. One bookstore employee had a story where a customer came in and asked if Anne Frank had ever written a sequel to her diary. 

Yep. 

I remember my schools being pretty detailed and thorough when we learned about WW2 in school. I know we watched Schindler's LIst in school when I was younger (and we had to have permission slips signed by our parents to see it), and when I was in high school we read Elie Wisel's Night. 

I also remember us reading first person accounts from those who surrived the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings, and the history around that aspect of the war as well, along with the Japanese internment camps. I feel rather fortunate that my schools were fairly well up to date and detailed in regards to all of those topics. 

As for other topics, regarding the discussion of music from the '60s, I've told this story before somewhere on here, I'm sure, but when I was a teenager and there was all the freaking out about kids listening to Marilyn Manson in the wake of Columbine, my dad remembered a co-worker of his being shocked that he didn't mind me listening to artists like that. Said co-worker was like, "Aren't you worried about Manson being a bad influence on her?" 

My dad was just like, "I grew up listening to Black Sabbath, the Doors, and Led Zeppelin. This is no different."

(The funny thing was that I wasn't even some kind of diehard Marilyn Nanson fan or anything like that. I just liked a couple of his songs here and there. Nowadays I'd feel uncomfortable listening to him, but not because of reasons related to his particular style of music.)

*Would very much recommend that book about customer service, by the way. There's another story in there where a woman tries to return a used toothbrush...and believe it or not, thta's not the weirdest part of that story :p. 

[Bastet]

3 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

I remember my schools being pretty detailed and thorough when we learned about WW2 in school.

Same here, but one thing I don't remember if we learned was about the internment of Japanese Americans.  There was an episode of Cold Case where the flashbacks were set in Manzanar, and some viewers posted it was the first time they learned of the camps.  I thought "OMG, imagine that not being taught!" but then realized I don't specifically remember that fact being in a textbook or lecture, and I certainly don't remember discussing it in class.  My mom had a friend who was born in one, so it's something I always knew, but I can't recall if/how it was taught in school.

(Elementary school was where I learned about the Holocaust, and we covered it more in high school.  I took a class on it my first year of college, which is where I learned many of the details, especially about the before.  That's what really got me into documentaries, museums, etc. on the subject.  My mind is boggled - and horrified - by deniers.)

[peacheslatour]

1 minute ago, Bastet said:

Same here, but one thing I don't remember if we learned was about the internment of Japanese Americans.  There was an episode of Cold Case where the flashbacks were set in Manzanar, and some viewers posted it was the first time they learned of the camps.  I thought "OMG, imagine that not being taught!" but then realized I don't specifically remember that fact being in a textbook or lecture, and I certainly don't remember discussing it in class.  My mom had a friend who was born in one, so it's something I always knew, but I can't recall if/how it was taught in school.

(Elementary school was where I learned about the Holocaust, and we covered it more in high school.  I took a class on it my first year of college, which is where I learned many of the details, especially about the before.  That's what really got me into documentaries, museums, etc. on the subject.  My mind is boggled - and horrified - by deniers.)

We learned about the internment camps in Washington State History which was required for every kid in Washington. It hit farmers here really hard. I grew up in Bellevue  and most of the city was rural at one time, with Japanese farmers dominating. One said that as they were being taken from their homes, they would take the train and see their farms from the train as the were moved to Puyallup where the camps were. It may be comforting to think this kind of stuff happened in far away Europe. It happened right here too. I hope we never forget that.

[tearknee]

 

The internment camps were horrible.

 

The Japanese nation-state are the only ones responsible for the firebombing of Tokyo and what happened to Hiroshima etc. Japan were the first country to drop bombs upon Asian cities. When you start a war, you are responsible for everything that follows, including the deaths of your own civilian and military populations.

 

[fairffaxx]

My father grew up in Seattle during the Depression & went to school with kids whose ancestors came to the U.S. from Japan.  His parents & others in their neighborhood took care of the Japanese neighbors' properties when the owners were sent to the camps.  I'm sure that was not uncommon, but I also suspect that some people took advantage of the owners' sudden absences.  What a terrible time!

[Anela]

My grandma used to tell us about the bombing in London, but all I can remember is that she said they would hold hands, and pray.  I wish she’d written it all down.  She died just before my twelfth birthday.  

[Dimity]

My grandfather served overseas during WWII and was involved with the liberation of the Netherlands.  He never talked about it though.  Which, I think was very common.  It was only very late in his life that we found out some details including that he had been involved with the resistance and did some pretty heroic things.  My children barely knew him and of course the grandchildren have no idea.  

We do try to share with them some stories about what life was like for their grandparents and great grandparents and I think that's something that has to go hand in hand with what kids are learning in school.  Talk about the "olden times" - most kids are genuinely interested.

Edited November 25 by Dimity

[peacheslatour]

8 minutes ago, Dimity said:

My grandfather served overseas during WWII and was involved with the liberation of the Netherlands.  He never talked about it though.  Which, I think was very common.  It was only very late in his life that we found out some details including that he had been involved with the resistance and did some pretty heroic things.  My children barely knew him and of course the grandchildren have no idea. 

Maybe there will be an opportunity to tell them over the holidays?

[Blergh]

My late Papa was a WWII vet who served in the Pacific Theater and told me many stories about his time island hopping while getting closer to  Japan before the Surrender and told me many stories that were quite unforgettable and even so, I can't help but believe he likely held back some of the more gory ones.

Mama also remembers WWII AND the Depression.

Yep, I was late-in-life baby for them but it's served me well for the 1930's and 1940's were quite relevant and the lessons from those times were never forgotten by them.

[Dimity]

Just now, peacheslatour said:

Maybe there will be an opportunity to tell them over the holidays?

I've talked to the older two about my grandfather's war service and also what it was like for my Mom and her sisters growing up in the war years.  We have a binder filled with the letters my Mom sent to him and the ones he sent back and they are a treasure.

[peacheslatour]

6 minutes ago, Dimity said:

I've talked to the older two about my grandfather's war service and also what it was like for my Mom and her sisters growing up in the war years.  We have a binder filled with the letters my Mom sent to him and the ones he sent back and they are a treasure.

A treasure indeed!

[bluegirl147]

Just thinking about why were fighting WWII and why were fighting the war in Iraq.  Things have changed a lot.

[PRgal]

1 hour ago, tearknee said:

 

The internment camps were horrible.

 

The Japanese nation-state are the only ones responsible for the firebombing of Tokyo and what happened to Hiroshima etc. Japan were the first country to drop bombs upon Asian cities. When you start a war, you are responsible for everything that follows, including the deaths of your own civilian and military populations.

 

And unlike the Germans, they have not apologized for anything.  Yet, for some reason, we're all okay with them.  Even my late grandparents who were living DURING the time had products made in Japan or Japanese-branded products.  Okay, my paternal grandmother refused to eat Japanese cuisine until very late in her life, but it didn't mean that she didn't have a Sony cassette player.

ETA:  This is EXACTLY why if we're going to talk about cultural diversity in schools, we can't ONLY talk about Asian experiences within North America (or wherever you are), but Asian experiences (and histories) IN ASIA.  It needs to be treated just like European histories and cultures.  

Edited November 25 by PRgal

[Yeah No]

On 11/22/2024 at 7:30 PM, Annber03 said:

-All of that being said, however, younger people are also shooting themselves in the foot as well, because a lot of younger people don't vote as often as they should. And a large part of that is because we're in an era now where people feel like a political candidate has to fit the most perfect checklist imaginable in order to be worthy of someone's vote. A lot of younger people were really not happy with Biden/Harris' stances on the Israle-Palestine conflict, for instance, and so some of them just refused to vote, or did a protest vote. 

Of course, that's completely backfired on them and on the people they support, 'cause now Trump and the GOP are in power and if anyone thinks they're going tto be even remotely helpful to the Palestinian people, then they are clearly living in a delusional fantasyland. 

But yeah,  I do think younger people have a hard time with the idea that you may not agree with everything a politician says or does, but in that case it's more a matter of pragmatic voting and who of the two candidates is more likely to give you at least SOME of what you want, if not all of it. I've mentioned Obama before - I was eager to vote for him in 2008 and was obviously happy when he won. My biggest critique of him, however, was that he'd been so muted about the topic of same-sex marriage on the campaign trail. 

But I still voted for him anyway because I knew that he did support some policies that would benefit same-sex couples, and in the end, look what happened during his term. He was able to appoint SC judges that helped ensure same-sex marriage became legal in all fifty states. And "don't ask, don't tell" ended on his watch as well. And all because he listened to those who kept pushing for more beyond what he'd been promising on the campaign trail, he took their advice on board, and he worked with them to ensure that that sort of monumental policy change happened. 

I've seen this too, but I think it's just unrealistic to expect a candidate to be everything you want them to be. In the end I think it's better to make a choice because not voting is also not a solution in the big picture. They may stick to their guns but not do the country or themselves in the big picture any service if they pick one issue they can't live with and decline to vote because of it. Because if you do that you run the risk of having an even worse candidate win and impact your life and the life of those you love in even worse ways.

I've also seen young people sit out elections because they don't think they can make a difference. They feel like either choice is too big of a compromise so they see it as a loss either way. So their attitude is why vote? I hear that - I didn't vote for president in 2016 because I didn't like Hillary and I would never vote for Trump. But at least I knew that my state would vote for her even if I couldn't reconcile myself to do it. So at least I could sleep at night knowing that, lol. But if I lived in a state where her winning wasn't guaranteed, I would have held my nose and voted for her. In retrospect I should have voted for her anyway, but hindsight is perfect vision. I had never sat out a presidential election before that and will hopefully not feel like I have to again.

Speaking of the electoral college it might actually be a reason people stay home rather than vote. A Democrat living in a red state might think "why bother?". That might be yet another reason not to like the electoral college. If it makes people feel disempowered like their votes don't matter, that's a real problem.

[Yeah No]

On 11/23/2024 at 2:12 AM, Annber03 said:

I guess that's the other thing, too - how long are poeple willing to just sit out and wait for thier perfect unicorn candidate to come along? People refused to vote for Hilary in 2016 because she wasn't their ideal candidate, so then came 2020, and then we had Biden and there were people who weren't enthused about him, either, and now people weren't enthused about Harris.

Like, what exactly will it take for those sorts of people to be satisfied enough to get off their asses and vote? And how the fuck is the opposiing candidate actively trying to overturn a democratic election NOT reason enough to do everything in your power to ensure he never gets back anywhere near the White House? 

I'm one that sat out the 2016 election. It's not something I ever would do. I have voted for president in every election but that one since 1976. So it had to be BAD for me to sit one out. But like I said above, I knew my state would vote for Hillary so I didn't have to worry about my responsibility in her loss. I think people need to do the cost/benefit analysis and realize the possible implications of their inaction. In 2016 I did not yet see Trump as the evil wacko that I do now. I didn't like him and thought he was an asshole but it took all the years in between for me to really grasp the extent of his lunacy and dangerousness. So I don't know what to say about people that are so picky that they would sit out the 2024 just because Harris wasn't their ideal candidate. Did they not see the alternative and how bad that would be??? One wonders what people are thinking anymore. 

[Yeah No]

On 11/23/2024 at 10:26 AM, Dimity said:

On 11/23/2024 at 10:06 AM, JustHereForFood said:

have noticed this for example in talks about LGBTQ+ representation on TV - it has changed so much in the last few decades that many people now look at some shows from like 20 years ago and instead of being happy how much it has changed since then, they throw so much hate at the older shows for not being up to today's standards

I see this with books as well.  If you don't want to read anything that doesn't completely and totally reflect your values and where you are today that's up to you but it's also totally unrealistic to expect 21st century values in books written 50, 100 or more years ago. 

I'm in total agreement with both of you. I'm seeing a trend toward young people finding conflicting ideas and values so repugnant and offensive to them that they react as if it's a personal insult and avoid them at all costs. I firmly believe that exposing oneself to historical values and philosophies only makes one a more well rounded person. You can't even understand your own point of view unless you learn about those you don't agree with. It's yet another example of the "echo chamber" people seem to seek these days, as if they have to block out or cancel everything else because it is just too toxic for them to even listen to. To that I would say they need to get over that. And I don't know about anyone else, but I have never read a philosophy or a value system that I agreed with completely, 100% to the letter. Expecting that is in my opinion completely unrealistic and way too rigid. 

And the demonization and canceling of historical figures because they don't measure up to our "enlightened" way of thinking is a little too self righteous for me to even take seriously. Imagine how people are going to look at our values in 100 years? If they held us to their standards we would be condemned and canceled for sure. We don't have all the answers either. Values are continuing to evolve over time. They have evolved a lot in my own lifetime.

I think little forgiveness should be given to those that came before us. I think today people sometimes think that if you forgive someone you are condoning their sin/mistake/crime, whatever. You are not. I think some young people today don't understand what that means. It has prompted a lot of conversations with friends in my age bracket about how mean spirited young people can be about some things. When I was young we defended people's rights to disagree with us even if we hated what they believed in. In order to live in a pluralistic society some tolerance and forgiveness is necessary or we end up at each other's throats and vulnerable to attack by our REAL enemies.

[Yeah No]

On 11/23/2024 at 1:13 PM, Makai said:

I’ve said many times that what was progressive on tv in the 1960’s is the ideal for racists and sexists right now. 

I've been rewatching some shows from the 1960s that I saw as a kid and it does depend on the show. There were actually some very progressive shows out there at the time, and more to come in the '70s but I agree that there were probably more that are indeed as you say above.

But even among the most progressive shows there are signs of inconsistency and just not getting it. I've been watching Adam-12 and in some ways it was very progressive and in others very sexist. And sometimes all in the same episode!

Although I do have to say that officer Reed was 100% the genuine article. His character could teach today's men how to be a progressive, liberated man. No joke there. Respect. And amazing for its time, too.

On 11/23/2024 at 1:14 PM, peacheslatour said:

No, I got that. We've been protesting since the early sixties and things are still not great. They've gotten better but now we are backsliding. Young people don't know how long and hard we've been fighting for equality when they dismiss older generations for "not getting it."

Yes, and also how they don't know how much progress was actually made before they were even born that has been undone or in danger of being undone only very recently. I've actually read articles about how many young women today don't appreciate how much they have that many older women didn't have in terms of opportunities and freedoms. And they don't appreciate how those older women fought for them. When I was young I learned about the suffrage movement and its history so I had an appreciation for that. It's one of those things I rant about that we older people don't get the credit for all our generation did to give them more equality and freedom.

[andromeda331]

6 hours ago, Bastet said:

Same here, but one thing I don't remember if we learned was about the internment of Japanese Americans.  There was an episode of Cold Case where the flashbacks were set in Manzanar, and some viewers posted it was the first time they learned of the camps.  I thought "OMG, imagine that not being taught!" but then realized I don't specifically remember that fact being in a textbook or lecture, and I certainly don't remember discussing it in class.  My mom had a friend who was born in one, so it's something I always knew, but I can't recall if/how it was taught in school.

I never learned about the Japanese internment camps in school. The first time I learned of it was reading the Babysitters Club one of the books mentioned the camps. I went to research it afterwards. That episode of Cold Case was the first time I ever seen it mentioned let alone an episode about it. I agree, it does need to be taught in school. As does slavery and other terrible things our country has done.   

[Annber03]

1 minute ago, andromeda331 said:

I never learned about the Japanese internment camps in school. The first time I learned of it was reading the Babysitters Club one of the books mentioned the camps.

I remember that book, too, yeah!

[Yeah No]

On 11/23/2024 at 3:05 PM, andromeda331 said:

It got me hooked on WWII I've read so many biographes and history books on the battles, the victims, the invasions of the countries, the Pacific theater. Those at home. It really was such a huge thing that effected everyone. The levels of evil the Nazis unleashed on the world especially the Jews, gays, Roma, political enemies, disability, and so much more is really unbelievable.

It's weird to me that people don't know much about it. There were always anniversaries on TV, plus people were always proudly telling people that their father, or grandfather, uncle etc fought in the war.

Both my parents were WWII vets and my dad was a natural born teacher, so I learned a lot about the war from him without even knowing it. I also learned about it in school but what really brought it home for me were all the documentaries I watched on the war several years ago when many channels like the History Channel, Smithsonian Channel, Nat Geo, and many more were celebrating the 70th anniversary of D-Day. I could not get over how many shows were airing and how many months this went on. I was glued to the TV every night watching them for months on end. I learned so much that I was able to talk with my father intelligently about the war for the first time in my life. I am so glad I had that experience with him before he died. He loved the opportunity I gave him to talk about it. But what struck me even more is how much I already knew about it thanks to him.

Those documentaries are still out there and being shown on those channels and on some streaming channels as well. So that information is out there, it's just not on all the "cool" platforms where young people go these days. And so unfortunately I think a lot of them miss it. 

On 11/23/2024 at 5:05 PM, PRgal said:

Shows how younger people don’t appreciate what older generations fought for.  Most (all?) of my great-grandmothers had bound feet.  Their daughters did not.  Their daughters also were able to choose their husbands.  Most of these great-grandmothers were either illiterate or barely literate.  Their daughters were able to attend school (though my paternal grandmother had her education disrupted due to war.  She was very ashamed of not finishing even elementary school).  My mom and my aunts have at least high school (I think they all have at least undergrad…or community college, anyway).  My female cousins and I all have at least one degree as well.  

Here's one from my own life. I was in school before Title 9 and so there were no girls sports teams. I was very athletic as a kid and loved softball and volleyball. Because there was no support for a girl's volleyball team in my Junior High School I had no outlet for playing those sports other than gym class and so it was only once in a while. So I got a group of girls together that wanted to play volleyball and pushed the school to allow us to play during recess times and after school. They gave it to us very begrudgingly and we often had to surrender the volleyball court to the boys if you can believe that. It was an uphill fight the whole way and unfortunately we eventually had to give up because it got harder and harder for us to get a court and we felt like that was deliberate. So anyway I envy young women today on this subject. I don't know if many of them are aware of how fortunate they are.

[anony.miss]

5 hours ago, PRgal said:

And unlike the Germans, they have not apologized for anything.  Yet, for some reason, we're all okay with them. 
 

Japanese officials have apologized multiple times to several nations, starting in the 50s up to current day - list of apologies and countries here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan

Some countries have said that the apologies are not wide-ranging enough (up to each citizen of those countries to decide for themselves, imo). This apology was issued by the Japanese government in 1995:

"On the occasion of the 50th anniversary of the end of World War II, this House offers its sincere condolences to those who fell in action and victims of wars and similar actions all over the world. Solemnly reflecting upon many instances of colonial rule and acts of aggression in the modern history of the world, and recognizing that Japan carried out those acts in the past, inflicting pain and suffering upon the peoples of other countries, especially in Asia, the Members of this House express a sense of deep remorse."

I fear if Trump's policies pass unchecked, undocumented workers will become our modern day internees.

Edited November 25 by anony.miss

[Yeah No]

13 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

I remember the Manson murders. After that, people cut their hair and went to business school. Also the "peace, love and flower power" movement in music became almost embarrassing when the likes of Jimi Hendrix, The Doors and Led Zeppelin showed up.

Yes. When I got to college suddenly everyone was changing their majors to business and wearing preppy clothes (remember that? LOL). I refused and stuck with Philosophy and Theology. Unfortunately I sacrificed a lot of money by doing that! And I couldn't afford to go to law school nor was I the type to want to study law back then. 

The RA in my dorm in Junior year had Izod everything. He even had Izod socks and underwear. He was a prime example of how things were changing. Then we had this disco phenomenon too. Suddenly everything was Donna Summer and then later all the guys from Queens wanted to look like John Travolta. Ugh.

13 hours ago, bluegirl147 said:

And how many students are going to want to read about it on their own?  I grew up and I still am a reader.  I read every night before I go to bed. I can't remember a time when I wasn't in the middle of reading a book.  I finish one and immediately start reading another one.  Hoe many kids today are growing up reading outside of what is assigned?

Yes, me too. I think there were fewer ways to get sidetracked from soul and mind enriching reading matter back then. With the internet there are many more ways to waste time and be fed misinformation. And there aren't enough hours in the day anymore somehow for doing something that takes that much time. People have been conditioned to react to sound bytes and visual and auditory stimuli. If it doesn't look like an action movie they're not interested. People want things fed to them while all they do is passively receive. Reading a book (or even finding one) requires using too much imagination and that's too much work for them.

13 hours ago, Enigma X said:

Totally off-topic overall, but in reference to your comment. I agree with all of this. when I was 5 in 1980, I decided Led Zeppelin was my favorite band. I now have 5 Led Zeppelin tattoos.

When I was 14 I saw Led Zeppelin in 1973 with a group of classmates (all girls) from my Junior High School at the Nassau Coliseum on Long Island. They were my favorite band but although I though Robert Plant was cool I didn't have a crush on him. I was not into rock musicians, lol.

13 hours ago, bluegirl147 said:

I still think the music from that era is some of best ever.   Over 50 yrs later I still listen to it.  50 yrs from now are people going to be listening to what is out now?

If you had asked me 50 years ago whether people would be listening to that music in 50 years I would have said "definitely not". It still surprises me how it has stood the test of time more or less. But I know why, it was just great music.

Can you imagine if we had listened to music from 50 years before 1970? That would have been 1920!! It just goes to show how society radically changed in that time. When I was young nobody even wanted to listen to the music from the 40s or even 50s and we thought of it as "old fart music", LOL. 

Although my father was a big connoisseur of all kinds of music so I grew up listening to the big bands and always loved Benny Goodman and Glenn Miller, but I was an outlier with that although I did convert a few HS friends to it.

[tearknee]

6 hours ago, PRgal said:

And unlike the Germans, they have not apologized for anything.  Yet, for some reason, we're all okay with them.  Even my late grandparents who were living DURING the time had products made in Japan or Japanese-branded products.  Okay, my paternal grandmother refused to eat Japanese cuisine until very late in her life, but it didn't mean that she didn't have a Sony cassette player.

ETA:  This is EXACTLY why if we're going to talk about cultural diversity in schools, we can't ONLY talk about Asian experiences within North America (or wherever you are), but Asian experiences (and histories) IN ASIA.  It needs to be treated just like European histories and cultures.  

Also, western bleeding-hearts blaming shitty black and brown regimes (and cultural practices) on "colonialism", "U.S. imperalism" and etc. infantalizes non-whites and takes away their agency. Mugabe, Bokassa, Amin et al didn't *need* London or Paris or D.C. to tell them to be assholes.

[Soapy Goddess]

17 hours ago, Anela said:

When my parents were divorced, my single mother was able to take care of us in England, where we had free health care.  Every time we got sick (I got sick a lot), she didn’t have to worry about medical bills.  I could see a doctor, and get my medicine, just like that.  

I saw someone tweeting in response to another person talking about Denmark paying 40% in taxes.  This woman responded with the things she doesn’t have to worry about, because of where that 40% goes.  

I can appreciate where you're coming from but imagine how the general public would feel about paying 40% in taxes.

Right now (for instance) the average family is in the 15-20% tax bracket and are having trouble making ends meet. Adding another 20-25% would be even more of a hardship.

[tearknee]

Hopefully most of this thread is this:

Hoping Tommy can save us... ;)

[PRgal]

5 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I never learned about the Japanese internment camps in school. The first time I learned of it was reading the Babysitters Club one of the books mentioned the camps. I went to research it afterwards. That episode of Cold Case was the first time I ever seen it mentioned let alone an episode about it. I agree, it does need to be taught in school. As does slavery and other terrible things our country has done.   

Which book was this?  I remember Claudia’s parents being immigrants who came after the war.  Or was it just one side?  It was the Netflix show that turned Mimi into an internment camp survivor.  The show taught me about Type 1 as well. 
 

as for Japan’s apology:  some people still feel it’s a bit half @$&ed

[tearknee]

half-assed is correct. And they are not white so the 30 thousand Japanese settlers in Saipan by the time WW2 started get ignored while the British and French Mandates are falsely called "colonies".

[Palimelon]

Quote

I know! It's truly amazing how certain words trigger people while others can completely ignore the same words. 

Usually in the cases you referring to, the ones who ignore those words are not the ones affected by those words.

Edited November 25 by Palimelon

[Annber03]

4 hours ago, Soapy Goddess said:

I can appreciate where you're coming from but imagine how the general public would feel about paying 40% in taxes.

Right now (for instance) the average family is in the 15-20% tax bracket and are having trouble making ends meet. Adding another 20-25% would be even more of a hardship.

Speaking as someone whose family has experience struggling to maek ends meat, I'd be fine with my taxes going towards things that actually help and benefit people, such as the ability to go to the doctor without going into debt. 

'Cause, see, I know what it's like for my family to go through that, and I will be happy to do whatever I can to ensure other families don't have to deal with that, eitehr. 

Also, if we tax the hell out of the Elon Musks and Jeff Bezos and so forth of the world, that would go a long way towards helping ensure that kind of scenario would be a reality. Make them pay their fair share in taxes and us lower-class/middle-class people wouldn't have to foot so much of the bill as a result. 

[Dimity]

5 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

Speaking as someone whose family has experience struggling to maek ends meat, I'd be fine with my taxes going towards things that actually help and benefit people, such as the ability to go to the doctor without going into deb

My understanding of the way things are done in the US as well is that while you may pay lower taxes overall than many countries do those other countries are covering expenses that are going to come out of your pocket anyway.  The big one being health care.  Americans pay for their health insurance if their job doesn't cover it and in many cases the health insurance doesn't cover everything.

My father recently underwent treatment for cancer that included an operation and then a course of treatments that a nurse mentioned to us cost $12,000 each time - Dad had this done every 3 weeks for 6 months.  Some patients have to have it for a year.  We paid nothing.  If our taxes are a bit higher, well, that still ends up being far cheaper than being out of pocket enormous sums of money if you or a family member get sick. 

Trump and his merry band of billionaires want to cut the ACA which means more and more people going without health care but hey,  apparently that's aces with at least 50% of Americans.  I can't even begin to understand this.

[Palimelon]

Here is a meme from over a decade ago...not sure how accurate it still is if Canada has had it's health system experience austerity cuts or not, but still.

[Dimity]

2 minutes ago, Palimelon said:

Here is a meme from over a decade ago...not sure how accurate it still is if Canada has had it's health system experience austerity cuts or not, but still.

Still accurate but Canada, like many other countries is definitely facing challenges in health care.  The biggest being it's getting a lot harder to find a family doctor.  The second biggest being in part because of the difficulty finding a family doctor wait times in ERs are through the roof in some areas.  Our system isn't perfect by any means however you will get seen, you will get hospitalized if needed and you will get appropriate treatment and no one is going to ask how you intend to pay.

[bluegirl147]

14 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

Speaking as someone whose family has experience struggling to maek ends meat, I'd be fine with my taxes going towards things that actually help and benefit people, such as the ability to go to the doctor without going into debt. 

I remember reading a comment on a story about the ACA where a woman said she hated going to the doctor's now (after the ACA was enacted) because the waiting room was filled with "all these other people".  Guess she didn't like more people being able to seek medical care.

20 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

Cause, see, I know what it's like for my family to go through that, and I will be happy to do whatever I can to ensure other families don't have to deal with that, eitehr. 

You have empathy.  Too many people in our country do not.

10 minutes ago, Dimity said:

Trump and his merry band of billionaires want to cut the ACA which means more and more people going without health care but hey,  apparently that's aces with at least 50% of Americans.  I can't even begin to understand this.

I read Bill Clinton's newest book over the weekend.  He told a story about going to Arkansas to campaign for Democrats in 2014.  He talked to someone he had known for years about the ACA.  The guy said he was voting for Republicans. Clinton asked  him why.  He said because they would get rid of Obamacare. Said he had went online and found himself a great health insurance policy and he didn't want Obamacare taking it away from him. Clinton told him that policy was part of the ACA aka Obamacare. The guy laughed and said nope, no way would Obamacare give him such a great plan.  My son didn't know he gets Medicaid because the ACA expanded Medicaid eligibility.  And yet he voted for a man who wants to repeal the ACA and everything that is part of it.  People choose to believe they won't be affected by the harmful policies of the people they vote for.

[Dimity]

4 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

People choose to believe they won't be affected by the harmful policies of the people they vote for.

"I never thought leopards would eat MY face,"

[bluegirl147]

5 minutes ago, Dimity said:

no one is going to ask how you intend to pay.

I have seen way too many spaghetti dinners organized to help people pay for their cancer treatments.  I have seen way too many people die because they couldn't afford to have preventative health care that would have caught their cancer early.

My husband and father both died in their 50s. They were both on Medicare because of being on SS Disability.  They both had supplemental insurances. After they died I did not receive one hospital bill.  Without those supplemental insurances the bills would have been in the thousands.

[Dimity]

[Suzn]

11 hours ago, Yeah No said:

Speaking of the electoral college it might actually be a reason people stay home rather than vote. A Democrat living in a red state might think "why bother?". That might be yet another reason not to like the electoral college. If it makes people feel disempowered like their votes don't matter, that's a real problem.

Due to the electoral college my presidential vote has never counted.  My state has always gone Republican since my first vote. I deeply resent this, but I always vote anyway.  My vote is counted even though it never "counts"!