Chit-Chat: The Feels

[bluegirl147]

14 minutes ago, Eri said:

they wanted Trump because he's a hateful person

He brings out the worst in a lot of people. They see him get away with saying vile things. They see him facing criminal charges and never having to be held accountable.  They see him continue to be rewarded no matter what he does and they think yeah I want to be like him.

[Palimelon]

His tax dodging is also something some of them admire.

Edited November 12 by Palimelon

[PRgal]

The gender problem is international.  This popped up in my news alerts this morning:

Making Fun of Men in China Comes at a Cost

(this is a free link)

A lot of the guys who voted Republican this time around would be able to relate to Millennial and GenZ men in China, unable to find wives because they're, well, seen as horrible catches.  Less educated, horrible work prospects.  So these guys, like their peers this side of the Pacific, turn into the dark web and become so-called "incels."  Shouldn't we find ways to HELP guys like that rather than further shaming them?  This is what worries me, as a "boy mom" the most.  That my son would turn into one of them. PRkid is a wonderful, funny, silly little six year old right now (even though he sometimes doesn't know when he needs to be "serious") and I don't want him to hear that being a boy = bad.  That he, as a boy, has certain privileges and that he needs to take a seat back so that the girls in his class can get priority.  He needs attention as well.  And guess what?  There are A LOT of parents of boys who don't want to be loud, proud boy parents because of all the shaming that boys have been getting.  Mind you, the shaming tends to be for older kids, middle school and above, but if we don't make changes NOW, things won't, and my son, too, could be a target.  All kids need love and support.  All adults need love and support.

[Yeah No]

1 hour ago, Palimelon said:

It has moved right in many ways. Not in terms of social justice, but in terms of foreign policy, the economy, etc.

Being a Democrat or liberal isn't just related to issues like abortion, racism, queer issues, etc. The Democratic party as a whole, especially many of it's leaders, are more hawkish now that they were 40 years ago, just as one example. The supporting of banks and close ties to institutions like Goldman Sachs (was Harris thinking her quoting them lauding her economic policies was a good idea, even if they ended up backtracking on that? The same greedy thugs who helped get us into the 2007/8 financial disaster from which we are still arguably feeling the effects of? I mean, it isn't as bad as celebrating being endorsed by Dick Cheney but it did make quite a few side-eye her), etc.

Clinton and Obama helped the party move more and more to the center on many issues. Like I said, it's great that women can have abortions, queer people can marry the partner of their choice, people can't be fired from their job based on their race, ethnicity, sexuality, etc. But there are issues beyond the social ones that need to be factored in as well.

 

I don't know if I agree with you about the economy and foreign policy but I think where the party is losing people is to the social issues. The party has become identified with them to the exclusion of the other issues in the minds of many people. They are hearing the loudest mouthpieces and falling victim to the scare tactics of the far right that the very left of the party has taken it over for their own agenda. And that is not what the majority of Americans wants to hear whether it's true or not. 

Also from the POV of many average Americans, we are on board with most of the social justice issues, but where we often get alienated is with the excesses of "woke" culture such as 50 new pronouns every week and the like. Many of us are not for unchecked immigration, reparations, pushing white men to apologize to minorities and women just for being white men, making white people in general feel like they are the bad guy just for being white, tuition forgiveness, etc. Which ones we are for or against varies depending on the person and the degree of extremity we perceive. And this is not necessarily what the party intends to project but the way it's being perceived by the average person. So I think the party needs to address that perception and find a way to make everyone feel included. We should concentrate on the things most of us agree on, not what divides us.

[bluegirl147]

13 minutes ago, PRgal said:

A lot of the guys who voted Republican this time around would be able to relate to Millennial and GenZ men in China, unable to find wives because they're, well, seen as horrible catches.  Less educated, horrible work prospects.  So these guys, like their peers this side of the Pacific, turn into the dark web and become so-called "incels."  Shouldn't we find ways to HELP guys like that rather than further shaming them?

I feel like women get blamed a lot of times for men being incels.  That women are too picky.  That they have too high of standards.  How exactly are we supposed to help these guys?  I'm happily single and probably will be for the rest of my life because the pool of men in my area are not even close to what I would want.  I bet there are a lot of women who feel the same way I do.

[Palimelon]

Quote

I don't know if I agree with you about the economy and foreign policy but I think where the party is losing people is to the social issues. The party has become identified with them to the exclusion of the other issues in the minds of many people. They are hearing the loudest mouthpieces and falling victim to the scare tactics of the far right that the very left of the party has taken it over for their own agenda. And that is not what the majority of Americans wants to hear whether it's true or not. 

One could say it's the fault of the Democratic party for allowing the Republicans and the right to dominate the conversation and control the narrative.

Quote

Also from the POV of many average Americans, we are on board with most of the social justice issues, but where we often get alienated is with the excesses of "woke" culture such as 50 new pronouns every week and the like.

I'm sorry but what determines what is an excess of woke culture? Why do pronouns seem to trigger certain people on the left as much as it does on the right? Pronouns are no different than someone getting an abortion or a marriage between queer people; nobody is forcing them on you or expecting you to use them, but just asking for people to respect their choice if they do use them. I myself use traditional pronouns and I don't announce them to anyone, but if someone else uses ones that are different, I just shrug my shoulders and accommodate them. And it doesn't cost me a thing.

Quote

Many of us are not for unchecked immigration, reparations, pushing white men to apologize to minorities and women just for being white men, making white people in general feel like they are the bad guy just for being white, tuition forgiveness, etc. Which ones we are for or against varies depending on the person and the degree of extremity we perceive. And this is not necessarily what the party intends to project but the way it's being perceived by the average person.

Yes and many people on the left don't agree for all those things either, but rather see those things as issues that need to be discussed with nuance and how they can adapted to society as things stand now. But again, party leaders have allowed the other side to dominate and co-opt their narrative for their own ends (the way "woke" has been co-opted and is now being used as some kind of pejorative, and not just by those on the right). It's up to the Democratic party to should louder and better on the nuances of the topic, to raise their voices to the level of the Republicans and even louder to get that message across.

Quote

So I think the party needs to address that perception and find a way to make everyone feel included. We should concentrate on the things most of us agree on, not what divides us.

Ok, but what exactly does that mean? Should people ignore issues that are important to them? Should we be like the less fascist Republicans and compromise on issues that might offend people?

Back in the day, the idea of women voting offended a majority of the population and people who supported it were probably derided as the "woke" of their day.

Back in the day, the idea of women working outside of the home or even getting an education offended a majority of the population and people who supported it were probably derided as the "woke" of their day.

Back in the day, the idea of women getting abortions offended a majority of the population and people who supported it were probably derided as the "woke" of their day.

Back in the day, the idea of freeing slaves offended a majority of the population and people who supported it were probably derided as the "woke" of their day.

Back in the day, the idea of black and other non-white people earning the same salary or attending the same educational institutions offended a majority of the population and people who supported it were probably derided as the "woke" of their day.

Back in the day, the idea of letting queer people get married offended a majority of the population and people who supported it were probably derided as the "woke" of their day.

Back in the day, the idea of letting queer people adopt children offended a majority of the population and people who supported it were probably derided as the "woke" of their day.

It was the "woke" of their day that kept shouting louder and louder that kept pushing for these changes and kept pushing for these ideas to become mainstream which is what led to the changes we have seen on many of these issues. A "woke" issue - whether it's gay marriage or women getting an abortion of equal rights for all citizens - only stops being a "woke" issue once more and more people start accepting it.

Edited November 12 by Palimelon

[bluegirl147]

2 minutes ago, Palimelon said:

One could say it's the fault of the Democratic party for allowing the Republicans and the right to dominate the conversation and control the narrative.

I agree with this and the media helped them.

[Ohiopirate02]

23 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

I feel like women get blamed a lot of times for men being incels.  That women are too picky.  That they have too high of standards.  How exactly are we supposed to help these guys?  I'm happily single and probably will be for the rest of my life because the pool of men in my area are not even close to what I would want.  I bet there are a lot of women who feel the same way I do.

I guess someone could try to teach them how to be better partners, but that is not the underlying issue with incels. They don't want to change to make themselves more attractive to women. The problem is them, not women or the economy or whatever else the Andrew Tates of the world tell them. And until they look inward and work on themselves, nothing is going to change. I've been around long enough to see men of all types find their lifelong partners because these men are good men who are kind and decent and uplift their partners. It's not about having money or a killer body or socially acceptable hobbies, it's about how you treat the women in your life. 

[FilmTVGeek80]

4 hours ago, Enigma X said:

I am going to be honest with you. People analyzing why he won and making scapegoats out of the marginalized are making me angrier than his win. The reason why he won is clear even if people want to say “the economy.” It is because people are racists and misogynists.  So many folks are trying to beat those charges right now, and it would be nice if people called them on their bull.

IA. No one will ever convince me race/misogny didn’t play a HUGE factor. It even played a factor on the MAGA side. As far as I know, the two highest profile MAGA losses were Mark Robinson and Kari Lake - an African-American and a woman. 
 

Other than here - and a couple of other places - I  haven’t been looking at dissection of the election because I know the majority of it will probably annoy/anger me. But, I still follow Entertainment Weekly and they’ve covered some of the discussion on The View. From what I read, Sunny Hostin did try to call out the racism and misogyny. She asked the same question many of us have asked - what is wrong with America/the voters. Two of the other panelists - including conservative Alyssa Griffin - clutched their pearls and acted so offended that she would dare question the voter’s integrity in such a way. A lot of people in the media don’t want to dare confront the idea that a lot of voters are that twisted.

2 hours ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

I've unsubscribed to Seth Meyers and Stephen Colbert on my YouTube account. I don't even want jokey reminders.

I’ve never really watch Colbert, but I’ve loved Seth’s Closer Look segments for years. But, I’m not sure when, or if, I’ll watch them again. I’d already pulled away a little since so many of those late-night comics were leading the charge to push Biden out, but I’d been catching up before the election. Now, not only do I have no desire to see that orange psychopath’s face or hear his voice - even if it is to make fun of him - I’m not in any mood to see jokes about this situation (hearing about SNL’s cold open set my teeth on edge). I get that comedy’s job is to make us laugh and many of us are desperate for that right now, but this subject is too raw for me. I won’t unsubscribe just yet - though Seth’s Closer Look yesterday focusing on Bernie and his latest BS hot take makes me closer to doing just that. Also, in no mood for Bernie Bro nonsense.

Edited November 12 by FilmTVGeek80

[Makai]

2 hours ago, Yeah No said:

I don't know if I agree with you about the economy and foreign policy but I think where the party is losing people is to the social issues. The party has become identified with them to the exclusion of the other issues in the minds of many people. They are hearing the loudest mouthpieces and falling victim to the scare tactics of the far right that the very left of the party has taken it over for their own agenda. And that is not what the majority of Americans wants to hear whether it's true or not. 

Also from the POV of many average Americans, we are on board with most of the social justice issues, but where we often get alienated is with the excesses of "woke" culture such as 50 new pronouns every week and the like.

I feel like there is a real danger in terms like average American because we are dealing with four different generations of voting age where “average” is going to swing wildly. Millennials are the largest generation so they have to taken into consideration and they are a group that is going to offended by complaints about “woke” culture and hyperbole about pronouns. The balance is shifting every election cycle. 

I feel like older generations have taken the approach that they didn’t have to adjust too much because the younger generation is going to get more conservative with age but that’s not happening. 

Edited November 12 by Makai

[FilmTVGeek80]

1 hour ago, Yeah No said:

Also from the POV of many average Americans, we are on board with most of the social justice issues, but where we often get alienated is with the excesses of "woke" culture such as 50 new pronouns every week and the like. Many of us are not for unchecked immigration, reparations, pushing white men to apologize to minorities and women just for being white men, making white people in general feel like they are the bad guy just for being white, tuition forgiveness, etc. Which ones we are for or against varies depending on the person and the degree of extremity we perceive. And this is not necessarily what the party intends to project but the way it's being perceived by the average person. So I think the party needs to address that perception and find a way to make everyone feel included. We should concentrate on the things most of us agree on, not what divides us.

I see your point on some of these, but I don’t get the issue with pronouns. It’s not that many and no one is forcing anyone to identify with those different pronouns. The reparations talk is just that - talk. It’s not that widespread and not anywhere close to being implemented. Who on the left - especially elected officials - is asking for unchecked immigration? Some - including myself - might want the process to be easier, but that’s not the same as the Right’s lies about open borders. I will never understand why so many have such an issue with tuition forgiveness. I don’t believe the issue is any effect it would have on the economy. Most of what I’ve seen online is just sour grapes from others who are pissed their student loans weren’t forgiven (not saying that’s your position). I managed to pay off my loans not long before Biden took office. I would have loved to benefit from that, but just because I didn’t doesn’t make me begrudge anyone getting the opportunity I didn’t. I’m jealous, sure, but that’s it.

Edited November 12 by FilmTVGeek80

[bluegirl147]

12 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

They don't want to change to make themselves more attractive to women

Yes they think women should change and want men who don't respect them.

12 minutes ago, FilmTVGeek80 said:

No one will ever convince me race/misogny didn’t play a HUGE factor. It even played a factor on the MAGA side. As far as I know, the two highest profile MAGA losses were Mark Robinson and Kari Lake - an African-American and a woman. 

 To be fair Robinson and Lake were truly awful candidates. And human beings.

13 minutes ago, FilmTVGeek80 said:

Also, in no mood for Bernie Bro nonsense.

Wasn't in the mood after the 2016 election and still not in the mood.

 

[peacheslatour]

1 hour ago, PRgal said:

The gender problem is international.  This popped up in my news alerts this morning:

Making Fun of Men in China Comes at a Cost

(this is a free link)

A lot of the guys who voted Republican this time around would be able to relate to Millennial and GenZ men in China, unable to find wives because they're, well, seen as horrible catches.  Less educated, horrible work prospects.  So these guys, like their peers this side of the Pacific, turn into the dark web and become so-called "incels."  Shouldn't we find ways to HELP guys like that rather than further shaming them?  This is what worries me, as a "boy mom" the most.  That my son would turn into one of them. PRkid is a wonderful, funny, silly little six year old right now (even though he sometimes doesn't know when he needs to be "serious") and I don't want him to hear that being a boy = bad.  That he, as a boy, has certain privileges and that he needs to take a seat back so that the girls in his class can get priority.  He needs attention as well.  And guess what?  There are A LOT of parents of boys who don't want to be loud, proud boy parents because of all the shaming that boys have been getting.  Mind you, the shaming tends to be for older kids, middle school and above, but if we don't make changes NOW, things won't, and my son, too, could be a target.  All kids need love and support.  All adults need love and support.

As a boy mom myself, I saw how boys were medicated in elementary and middle school for just being boys but there are ways to deal with  problematic male behavior without becoming defensive about it. It's really up to you and your husband (not your extended family) to model respect and kindness toward each other and others so that your son can recognize what is and what is not acceptable. My son was not a jock or in with the popular crowd in school but he had good friends and we encouraged that. When he was out on his own, he had a terrible time dating because he didn't have a fancy job or a big salary. We worried he could become bitter but he never did and now he's happily married. We attribute if to his strong relationship with my husband and I and our always treating him and each other with respect. A good strong core made him never despair and he certainly didn't blame women for his lack of female attention.

[bluegirl147]

4 minutes ago, FilmTVGeek80 said:

I will never understand why so many have such an issue with tuition forgiveness

 

 

8 minutes ago, FilmTVGeek80 said:

Most of what I’ve seen online is just sour grapes from others who are pissed their student loans weren’t forgiven

Yes I think it's because people (but not all) who did pay off their loans think it's not fair that others don't have to pay their loans off.  

7 minutes ago, FilmTVGeek80 said:

The reparations talk is just that - talk. It’s not that widespread and not anywhere close to being implemented.

Reparations is one of those words that trigger certain people.

 

[Ohiopirate02]

3 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

 

 To be fair Robinson and Lake were truly awful candidates. And human beings.

Mark Robinson ran on "Donald Trump endorsed me" and nothing else. That worked for the primary, but was never viable in a general election. He also left too much readily available evidence of his noxious views for his opponent to use against him without having to twist his words. Seriously, minimal editing was needed. And then there's the miles long paper trail of his and his wife's failed businesses just sitting there. The CNN report was the cherry on top of the mess that is Mark Robinson. He was such a bad candidate that no political party would have ever thought of running for governor if it wasn't for that Trump endorsement.

[Enigma X]

I've been thinking about this, especially as we hear more about 'incels' in society. There are also women whom society deems unattractive, who struggle to find a job, a partner, or other opportunities. However, very few women—even those facing difficult situations—demand a partner or feel entitled to certain things in the way that some incels do. I believe part of the reason is that women historically haven’t received the same automatic respect that men often experience. Even the most troubled women generally don't have that same expectation. So, in essence, I think incels are creating their own problems.

[Makai]

1 hour ago, PRgal said:

The gender problem is international.  This popped up in my news alerts this morning:

Making Fun of Men in China Comes at a Cost

(this is a free link)

A lot of the guys who voted Republican this time around would be able to relate to Millennial and GenZ men in China, unable to find wives because they're, well, seen as horrible catches.  Less educated, horrible work prospects.  So these guys, like their peers this side of the Pacific, turn into the dark web and become so-called "incels."  Shouldn't we find ways to HELP guys like that rather than further shaming them?  

Yes, but far too often (almost exclusively) the onus is on women. Rather than teaching boys to not be unsafe, women are expected to fix the issue. It’s not just that those men are horrible catches, it’s that women can’t tell who is safe because too many men enable horrible acts by other men. The 4B movement in South Korea is an example. Most women who are following that can’t even admit it because doing so puts them in jeopardy. If things are going to change for men it needs to come from parents/older family member and other men. Most women are done doing the work. 

Edited November 12 by Makai

[PRgal]

5 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

As a boy mom myself, I saw how boys were medicated in elementary and middle school for just being boys but there are ways to deal with  problematic male behavior without becoming defensive about it. It's really up to you and your husband (not your extended family) to model respect and kindness toward each other and others so that your son can recognize what is and what is not acceptable. My son was not a jock or in with the popular crowd in school but he had good friends and we encouraged that. When he was out on his own, he had a terrible time dating because he didn't have a fancy job or a big salary. We worried he could become bitter but he never did and now he's happily married. We attribute if to his strong relationship with my husband and I and our always treating him and each other with respect. A good strong core made him never despair and he certainly didn't blame women for his lack of female attention.

To be fair, there are women who have a terrible time dating too.  I was a female incel.  If women/girls could be one.  Being neurodivergent certainly didn't help, and most of the men I met were indeed online, including my husband.  I'm pretty sure there was one guy (and a cute one, too) who COULD have been a prospect when I was 19, but I was too shy to pursue him.  And he thought I was shying away/signalling no. :(. Too bad.  But then again, a relationship at 19 doesn't a future spouse make.

My son loves to climb and at times, does it in a really risky way.  I'm glad we made the right choice NOT to get him a loft bed.  Oy!!  We're signing him up for rock climbing in the new year.  We want to wait a few months since he's JUST turned 6, the minimum age to take rock climbing at our local facility.  And he's small for his age.  Probably a one day workshop first.

@bluegirl147:  In some cultures, guys are blaming women because there's a pressure to marry.  There's a pressure for WOMEN to marry as well (have you heard of the so-called "leftover women" in China?  These gals are in their late 20s/early 30s and unmarried.  Many have embraced the term because it means they're single and free).  It's also that the guys are PRESSURED to marry but the women are turning them down because, well, they suck.  And thanks to the one child policy, there's a surplus of Millennial and GenZ guys.  Women with university degrees and good salaries aren't going to marry an undereducated jobless guy from the country.  Would YOU do that?  

[Palimelon]

Many incel men are blaming women because they feel they are entitled to have sex with that woman, and her saying no pisses them off, because they are owed sex.

[bluegirl147]

1 minute ago, PRgal said:

Women with university degrees and good salaries aren't going to marry an undereducated jobless guy from the country.  Would YOU do that?  

Are you asking me as a woman what would I do or are you asking as a man what would I do?

6 minutes ago, Makai said:

Yes, but far too often (almost exclusively) the onus on women. Rather than teaching boys to not be unsafe, women are expected to fix the issue.

Yes women are expected to fix the problem whatever the problem is.  Girls in school aren't allowed to wear certain types of clothes so as to not distract the boys.  Women have to watch their drink at a bar lest some man tries to drug them.  And of course women must partner up with men they find less than desirable so as they don't become men who shoot up public places.

2 minutes ago, Palimelon said:

Many incel men are blaming women because they feel they are entitled to have sex with that woman, and her saying no pisses them off, because they are owed sex.

When I did online dating men I didn't find attractive would send me a message asking to meet. I would politely decline saying they weren't my type. They would respond you are ugly anyways and I just wanted a BJ.  So yeah there are a whole bunch of men out there who think they should be getting sex from women simply because they want it.

[peacheslatour]

2 minutes ago, Palimelon said:

Many incel men are blaming women because they feel they are entitled to have sex with that woman, and her saying no pisses them off, because they are owed sex.

And from what I seen and heard from these guys, they don't just want women. They want 16 year old super model virgins who will wait on them hand and foot, clean their homes, cook chef quality meals and birth a family of tow headed boys and hold down well paying, full time jobs somehow without ever leaving the house. It's crazy.

[Ohiopirate02]

1 minute ago, peacheslatour said:

And from what I seen and heard from these guys, they don't just want women. They want 16 year old super model virgins who will wait on them hand and foot, clean their homes, cook chef quality meals and birth a family of tow headed boys and hold down well paying, full time jobs somehow without ever leaving the house. It's crazy.

And they expect those young virgins to be as experienced as a porn star without ever having had sex or masturbated. 

[bluegirl147]

4 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

And they expect those young virgins to be as experienced as a porn star without ever having had sex or masturbated. 

I do think porn is responsible for a lot of what is wrong with some men.  They are exposed to it at such a young age and they have unrealistic expectations when it comes to women.  Since porn is almost always about a man's perspective there is a lot of men who have no idea how to actually have a healthy sexual relationship.

Edited November 12 by bluegirl147

[Makai]

3 minutes ago, Palimelon said:

Many incel men are blaming women because they feel they are entitled to have sex with that woman, and her saying no pisses them off, because they are owed sex.

Yep. It’s the whole reason “nice guy” and “friendzoning” are common terms. Plus, many men think that any woman that is nice to them, even service workers who are just doing their job, are into them and get pissed when they don’t want to actually date them. 

[FilmTVGeek80]

50 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

To be fair Robinson and Lake were truly awful candidates. And human beings.

100%. And, I LOVE that they lost, but it still feels like a pattern. Sure, Robinson was all kinds of crazy, but so are many white MAGA candidates who won. Yeah, Robinson wanting to be called a Black Nazi is appropriately looked at with disgust, but some of those same people have no problem with 45 basically writing sonnets to Hitler and other dictators.

Another thing I keep wondering about - and contributing to why I felt so blindsided - is how we did so well in most elections leading up to this one, but tanked here. I keep thinking about a sports analogy of a team doing amazingly well in the Quarterfinals and Semifinals, but then getting decimated in the Finals. I get that can happen based on a lot of factors - including strength of the latest opponent, but here I don’t see what caused such a shift in some of the races. Like a lot of election deniers lost soundly in many local elections, especially in the 2022 midterms, but I read that many election deniers won this time.

[Enigma X]

2 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

The crazy thing is if this were found out to be true Trump's base would say he had to do that since the Democrats were going to rig it against him.

The truth is that if Trump stood in front of a nationwide crowd and admitted he did it, Trump's base would call everyone else liars and say no he didn't.

[partofme]

1 hour ago, FilmTVGeek80 said:

I will never understand why so many have such an issue with tuition forgiveness. I don’t believe the issue is any effect it would have on the economy. Most of what I’ve seen online is just sour grapes from others who are pissed their student loans weren’t forgiven

This is a big thing for me personally.  My loans are 26 years old, in good standing and eligible for forgiveness, I currently owe more than I borrowed, and the damn injunction is keeping them from being forgiven.  I am really upset about this. 

[Makai]

Now that Trump’s picks and policies are coming out there is already voter remorse. An immigration lawyer said she is dealing with a Trump voter who is now terrified that his daughter-in-law and grandchild will be deported and she warned him before hand. People are shocked to discover that Trump is appointing horrible people to positions of power, favors school vouchers, wants prayer in school and wants to get to of FAFSA. Google had a 400+% jump on people searching “how to change my vote” starting on Election Day. 

Plus the people shocked that family members are going no contact. 

“I never thought the leopards would eat MY face”

Edited November 12 by Makai

[Dimity]

3 minutes ago, Makai said:

“I never thought the leopards would eat MY face”

 

[Ohiopirate02]

33 minutes ago, Makai said:

“I never thought the leopards would eat MY face”

There's a Tik-Tokker who wrote a song using this and plays it with her ukulele. I now hear her voice every time I read those words or a story about a new member of the club. 

[Makai]

18 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

There's a Tik-Tokker who wrote a song using this and plays it with her ukulele. I now hear her voice every time I read those words or a story about a new member of the club. 

Same. She also now is selling merch which I am tempted to buy. 

[peacheslatour]

1 hour ago, Makai said:

Now that Trump’s picks and policies are coming out there is already voter remorse. An immigration lawyer said she is dealing with a Trump voter who is now terrified that his daughter-in-law and grandchild will be deported and she warned him before hand. People are shocked to discover that Trump is appointing horrible people to positions of power, favors school vouchers, wants prayer in school and wants to get to of FAFSA. Google had a 400+% jump on people searching “how to change my vote” starting on Election Day. 

Plus the people shocked that family members are going no contact. 

“I never thought the leopards would eat MY face”

[Avaleigh]

8 hours ago, Enigma X said:

I am going to be honest with you. People analyzing why he won and making scapegoats out of the marginalized are making me angrier than his win. The reason why he won is clear even if people want to say “the economy.” It is because people are racists and misogynists.  So many folks are trying to beat those charges right now, and it would be nice if people called them on their bull.

There are of course people who are racists or misogynists or homophobic or some combination of these things who voted for Trump. I personally know people who don't fall into these categories including my mother, a Black woman. She belonged to the Democratic party for decades. This was a relatively recent shift for her and other people like her.

We live in California and from her perspective, she thinks it's a mistake to leave the same people in charge year after year and think that the result will be any different. She brings up the homeless situation and crime that has personally affected them and people they know. She no longer associates the Democratic party with the group she thinks will keep her safe. I personally think she's misguided and wrong if she thinks that Trump will be able to wave a magic wand and solve things like crime and homelessness, but there's no amount of convincing I can do to get her to see things my way.

Nor am I able to get her to see that it's programs that come from the left that are assisting my daughter, her granddaughter, who has special needs. (Programs she thinks are great btw, lol! *smh*) These are programs that generally aren't available in red states. This is another reason why I will continue to do all I can to keep my state and local area blue. 

Whenever my mom and stepdad come to visit us, they reach a point where they briefly drive down Olympic Blvd just before Sawtelle. They go underneath the 405 and there are tents and trash and all the rest of it every time they go by. She uses this as a way to needle me about blue cities. We've been at our place for 3 years and that underpass almost always looks like shit run over twice. The city cleans it up every couple months or so and literally the next day the one or two tents are back and the cycle starts all over again. It actually looked better today with only one tent, but then I realized that people were camping just around the corner of either side of the fwy, so basically nothing has changed. Our mayor says that they've made enormous progress with the homeless crisis, and perhaps they have, but there's obviously still a lot of work to be done and they don't seem to have made an impact on West LA at all.

I've explained how complex and layered the situation is and how difficult it is to help people who don't have homes, and the numerous challenges when it comes to the lack of single family homes, NIMBYism, excruciatingly high rents, the decline of mental health care starting in the 1980s, etc. All she goes by is what she sees with her eyes and in her opinion she's not seeing proof that things are getting better even if statistics on crime and homelessness are saying otherwise. 

As far as wanting tighter border security, for some (most?) Trump voters there are obviously several racial elements at play, but I know for a fact that this isn't a racial issue for people like my mom. Keep in mind that she's consuming lies and right wing propaganda on a daily basis. She thinks that a lack of border security means more drugs and more stuff like people ODing on fentanyl. She believes that border security will help keep people safe. It isn't a racial issue for her.

The reason I bring all of this up, is because I think it's inaccurate to make it seem like all Trump supporters are racist assholes. Some of them have legitimate concerns and have lost faith in the Democratic party for whatever reason. Trump made gains with women and certain minorities, so I think it's important to examine the reasons why. I also firmly believe it's still possible to get some of these people back on the side of the Democrats if we improve the overall message next time around.

I don't think it helps to demonize everyone who voted for Trump because not everyone voted for him because they see themselves as happily supporting racism and misogyny. (Even if that's what they are in fact doing.) There are people who are struggling to feed their families. There are people who have been hurt by crime. Their concerns are genuine and they shouldn't be blown off and harshly labeled if these issues are happen to be their top priority. 

How are we supposed to win people back if we keep demonizing them and telling them how horrible they are because they voted for a cartoon villain they misguidedly think will make their lives better? Won't that just continue to alienate people who could potentially be won over?

Or is the idea that everyone who voted for him is a lost cause? If the Democrats only focus on getting new voters, people voting for the first time, I don't think that will be enough to bridge the gap that widened more than we expected it to this year. 

Edited November 12 by Avaleigh

[Dimity]

5 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

Or is the idea that everyone who voted for him is a lost cause?

I wish I could tell you they're not.

[EtheltoTillie]

21 hours ago, SoMuchTV said:

If you’re a podcast listener, check out the most recent This American Life. Act 1 (about 7 minutes in) lays out a possible scenario. 

(I can’t get the link to paste but it’s episode 846. I figure anyone who’s going to check it out already knows how to get podcasts.)

 

Highly recommended:  I listened to this whole episode yesterday.

[tearknee]

4 hours ago, PRgal said:

The gender problem is international.  This popped up in my news alerts this morning:

Making Fun of Men in China Comes at a Cost

(this is a free link)

A lot of the guys who voted Republican this time around would be able to relate to Millennial and GenZ men in China, unable to find wives because they're, well, seen as horrible catches.  Less educated, horrible work prospects.  So these guys, like their peers this side of the Pacific, turn into the dark web and become so-called "incels."  Shouldn't we find ways to HELP guys like that rather than further shaming them?  This is what worries me, as a "boy mom" the most.  That my son would turn into one of them. PRkid is a wonderful, funny, silly little six year old right now (even though he sometimes doesn't know when he needs to be "serious") and I don't want him to hear that being a boy = bad.  That he, as a boy, has certain privileges and that he needs to take a seat back so that the girls in his class can get priority.  He needs attention as well.  And guess what?  There are A LOT of parents of boys who don't want to be loud, proud boy parents because of all the shaming that boys have been getting.  Mind you, the shaming tends to be for older kids, middle school and above, but if we don't make changes NOW, things won't, and my son, too, could be a target.  All kids need love and support.  All adults need love and support.

American moms and their daughters taking pics of their infant/toddler sons in his sister(s) old baby dresses isn't quite the "it will teach him equality later" thing some seem to think it is. Admittedly it was more common before the awareness of the way bullying haunts you for the rest of your life and can lead to suicide -- but taking pictures of what they do -- given that they would only be useful for humiliation or blackmail material ...?

[tearknee]

3 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I guess someone could try to teach them how to be better partners, but that is not the underlying issue with incels. They don't want to change to make themselves more attractive to women. The problem is them, not women or the economy or whatever else the Andrew Tates of the world tell them. And until they look inward and work on themselves, nothing is going to change. I've been around long enough to see men of all types find their lifelong partners because these men are good men who are kind and decent and uplift their partners. It's not about having money or a killer body or socially acceptable hobbies, it's about how you treat the women in your life. 

Your exhortation and advised tactics have been the standard ones since the 1970s -- and it's largely not worked in five decades.

It did not have to be this way.

At some point these failed tactics and statements should have been dropped and a search begun for ones that would work.

Wile E. and the Roadrunner...

 

[peacheslatour]

5 minutes ago, tearknee said:

American moms and their daughters taking pics of their infant/toddler sons in his sister(s) old baby dresses isn't quite the "it will teach him equality later" thing some seem to think it is. Admittedly it was more common before the awareness of the way bullying haunts you for the rest of your life and can lead to suicide -- but taking pictures of what they do -- given that they would only be useful for humiliation or blackmail material ...?

I'm not on Facebook or Xitter ot Insta or any of the other social media except here and a couple others. I would never post pics of my kids under any circumstances.

[tearknee]

3 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

I'm not on Facebook or Xitter ot Insta or any of the other social media except here and a couple others. I would never post pics of my kids under any circumstances.

In the USA - with over a million guns in circ - it's kind of quaint and charming that the mothers and sisters that do this in infant/toddler boys think that his own friends and [cis] boy classmates years later will only say rude/mean things instead of hurting him.

[Bastet]

31 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

Or is the idea that everyone who voted for him is a lost cause?

Well, you did just say:

Quote

there's no amount of convincing I can do to get her to see things my way.

Her own child is speaking logic and reason to her, and pointing out the personal (your daughter's special needs programs), but she's "consuming lies and right wing propaganda on a daily basis" and that, not you, is what she's choosing to believe as fact. 

A lot of us have family members who have marinated in "alternative facts" for so long they'll go to their damn graves - or send us to ours - declaring the lies to be gospel truth, and the truth to be fake news.  Declaring them a lost cause is not exactly a stretch.  Sincere wishes of good luck to anyone who keeps trying, but I certainly understand deciding one's energy is best used elsewhere.

[bluegirl147]

8 minutes ago, tearknee said:

Your exhortation and advised tactics have been the standard ones since the 1970s -- and it's largely not worked in five decades.

It did not have to be this way.

At some point these failed tactics and statements should have been dropped and a search begun for ones that would work.

Wile E. and the Roadrunner...

 

My problem is it seems to be these particular men don't want to change. They don't see anything wrong with their behavior. The women who have a problem with their behavior are the one's that are wrong.   It does not help when the media focuses on just men feeling left behind and in despair.  Are there no women who feel the same way?

[EtheltoTillie]

3 minutes ago, tearknee said:

I had a really horrible early life (hence why i have an ABI). I am under no illusions as to how both opposite genders are much worse than any horror film.

 

 

What is an ABI?  I tried Googling.

[JustHereForFood]

On 11/11/2024 at 3:39 AM, tearknee said:

"My body, my choice" is becoming a tool of eugenics in the pre-natal testing era.

Rod Serling's closing narration to "Death's-Head Revisited" is relevant.

I understand that the conversation has moved on, but I just want to quickly point out that this is what I was talking about regarding people using certain terms however they choose. Eugenics is systematic, not an individual choice. One can't do eugenics on their own fetus. 

Like, I also have opinions on what reasons for abortion are more valid than others, but they are just opinions. It's ok to have them because we are not machines that can decide what to think, but we can't expect anybody else to make their own decisions about their own lives based on our opinions and we certainly can't base policies on them. As soon as we start deciding what reasons for abortion are ok and what are not for other people, it will become a way to oppress women, no doubt about that.

On 11/11/2024 at 3:48 AM, Dimity said:

Same in Canada.  Of course here the Conservatives will solve this with a wave of their magic wand when they win the next election.  

I think it's worldwide. We had elections last year and the horrible populist party that won did so in part thanks to a campaign when they promised lower food prices. Did it happen? Of course not, the prices went higher, but their voters blame anybody else but the current government.

On 11/11/2024 at 3:35 PM, bluegirl147 said:

That whole Trad Wife thing concerns me.  Even before it became a thing I would see a lot of women in their 20s saying they didn't have to work because their man did.  That seemed to be their goal.  Have a man take care of them. 

I've heard a lot of people say it's that American indvidualism thing.  Code for I'm going to do what is best for me and fuck everyone else. 

I don't think individualism is the problem, because again, it's worldwide. It's more IMO about self-centerdness of some people, regardless of their political orientation.

15 hours ago, LexieLily said:

In a surprise to absolutely no one, a Putin presidential aide made a statement to the effect of "to achieve success in the election, [Donald Trump] relied on certain forces to which he has corresponding obligations. As a responsible person he will be obligated to fulfill them."

Well, duh. Putin's buddies in Iranian government started their escalation in Middle East a year ago through their proxy terrorist groups, and look how much that influenced so many of American voters. I keep worrying about China also getting creepy about Taiwan any day. All the horrible people are enjoying the chaos and disorder.  But voting for "establishment" politicians with experience in keeping some level of order is apparently cringe now.

[Makai]

43 minutes ago, tearknee said:

American moms and their daughters taking pics of their infant/toddler sons in his sister(s) old baby dresses isn't quite the "it will teach him equality later" thing some seem to think it is. Admittedly it was more common before the awareness of the way bullying haunts you for the rest of your life and can lead to suicide -- but taking pictures of what they do -- given that they would only be useful for humiliation or blackmail material ...?

For too many children, their parent is their first bully. 

1 hour ago, Avaleigh said:

There are of course people who are racists or misogynists or homophobic or some combination of these things who voted for Trump. I personally know people who don't fall into these categories including my mother, a Black woman. She belonged to the Democratic party for decades. This was a relatively recent shift for her and other people like her.

We live in California and from her perspective, she thinks it's a mistake to leave the same people in charge year after year and think that the result will be any different. She brings up the homeless situation and crime that has personally affected them and people they know. She no longer associates the Democratic party with the group she thinks will keep her safe. I personally think she's misguided and wrong if she thinks that Trump will be able to wave a magic wand and solve things like crime and homelessness, but there's no amount of convincing I can do to get her to see things my way.

Nor am I able to get her to see that it's programs that come from the left that are assisting my daughter, her granddaughter, who has special needs. (Programs she thinks are great btw, lol! *smh*) These are programs that generally aren't available in red states. This is another reason why I will continue to do all I can to keep my state and local area blue. 

Whenever my mom and stepdad come to visit us, they reach a point where they briefly drive down Olympic Blvd just before Sawtelle. They go underneath the 405 and there are tents and trash and all the rest of it every time they go by. She uses this as a way to needle me about blue cities. We've been at our place for 3 years and that underpass almost always looks like shit run over twice. The city cleans it up every couple months or so and literally the next day the one or two tents are back and the cycle starts all over again. It actually looked better today with only one tent, but then I realized that people were camping just around the corner of either side of the fwy, so basically nothing has changed. Our mayor says that they've made enormous progress with the homeless crisis, and perhaps they have, but there's obviously still a lot of work to be done and they don't seem to have made an impact on West LA at all.

I've explained how complex and layered the situation is and how difficult it is to help people who don't have homes, and the numerous challenges when it comes to the lack of single family homes, NIMBYism, excruciatingly high rents, the decline of mental health care starting in the 1980s, etc. All she goes by is what she sees with her eyes and in her opinion she's not seeing proof that things are getting better even if statistics on crime and homelessness are saying otherwise. 

As far as wanting tighter border security, for some (most?) Trump voters there are obviously several racial elements at play, but I know for a fact that this isn't a racial issue for people like my mom. Keep in mind that she's consuming lies and right wing propaganda on a daily basis. She thinks that a lack of border security means more drugs and more stuff like people ODing on fentanyl. She believes that border security will help keep people safe. It isn't a racial issue for her.

The reason I bring all of this up, is because I think it's inaccurate to make it seem like all Trump supporters are racist assholes. Some of them have legitimate concerns and have lost faith in the Democratic party for whatever reason. Trump made gains with women and certain minorities, so I think it's important to examine the reasons why. I also firmly believe it's still possible to get some of these people back on the side of the Democrats if we improve the overall message next time around.

I don't think it helps to demonize everyone who voted for Trump because not everyone voted for him because they see themselves as happily supporting racism and misogyny. (Even if that's what they are in fact doing.) There are people who are struggling to feed their families. There are people who have been hurt by crime. Their concerns are genuine and they shouldn't be blown off and harshly labeled if these issues are happen to be their top priority. 

How are we supposed to win people back if we keep demonizing them and telling them how horrible they are because they voted for a cartoon villain they misguidedly think will make their lives better? Won't that just continue to alienate people who could potentially be won over?

Or is the idea that everyone who voted for him is a lost cause? It the Democrats only focus on getting new voters, people voting for the first time, I don't think that will be enough to bridge the gap that widened more than we expected it to this year. 

As a fellow Californian, I feel your entire post. I also think there is a real belief that, as a blue state, we will be insulated from the worst. A general feeling of “that won’t affect me and those I care about”. And they’re not entirely wrong. Our Legislature is having a special session to shore any protections they can and there is a team already in place to fight whenever possible. We have Oregon and Washington as allies on the west coast and we have a massive enough economy and national value that the state can push back in way other states can’t. So, in their minds, we would get all the benefits with none of the nasty stuff. And if other states done have the benefit they should have just voted better on a local and state level.

I’m curious if you noticed the same immediate hostility from many people to Harris because she’s seen as part and parcel of California politics. So that voting for her is seen as voting for the California economy on an even larger scale. I saw a lot of hostility that had nothing to do with race or gender. 

[Makai]

TIL, that a disturbing number of Trump voters didn’t know that ACA and Obamacare are the same thing. People who voted because they wanted to end the horrible Obamacare didn’t know they were using it. 
 

[peacheslatour]

Lol, Trump just made Mike Huckabee ambassador to Israel.  Huckabee is an end time huckster - really, an apostate who used Jesus to hurt people. That nutcase (and those who believe as he does) believes that Jerusalem MUST be under Israeli control before the Apocalypse can happen. These people are some of the most batshit crazy folks in America - and we have TENS of MILLIONS of them

[Avaleigh]

3 hours ago, Makai said:

Google had a 400+% jump on people searching “how to change my vote” starting on Election Day. 

 

1 hour ago, Dimity said:

I wish I could tell you they're not.

To me the above quote cited by @Makai is a clear indication that not everyone is a lost cause. 

[Dimity]

15 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

Lol, Trump just made Mike Huckabee ambassador to Israel.

I haven't been keeping up with how groups voted but prior to the election there was a real backlash growing against the Dems for their perceived support of Israel in the current conflict.  I asked the universe then, and will ask now "what the ever loving hell did these people think was going to happen if Trump got in?????

[Enigma X]

2 minutes ago, Dimity said:

I haven't been keeping up with how groups voted but prior to the election there was a real backlash growing against the Dems for their perceived support of Israel in the current conflict.  I asked the universe then, and will ask now "what the ever loving hell did these people think was going to happen if Trump got in?????

I am one of these people who voted for Harris because I knew Trump would be worse for Palestinians and everybody else. Not all of us sat out the election. 

[Dimity]

24 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

Lol, Trump just made Mike Huckabee ambassador to Israel. 

Dumb question - as Ambassador does that mean he is going to be living in Israel?