TBBT vs Young Sheldon vs Georgie and Mandy, Oh My! Compare and Contrast characters and plots

[iarwain]

9 hours ago, Yeah No said:

I love Will Sasso and think he's probably the best new character, but turning him into the stereotyped weak, henpecked husband is falling somewhat flat for me, at least the way they're handling it. And Mandy's mother is even more insufferable than Mary.

I realize they need some conflict and some characters to stir the drama, but I think they made a mistake making her so annoying and unlikable.  Doesn't make for pleasant viewing.

You know, I had never really considered that Mary was supposed to be an insufferable character.  I had always seen her as a sympathetic character, with some quirks.

[Dimity]

14 minutes ago, iarwain said:

You know, I had never really considered that Mary was supposed to be an insufferable character.  I had always seen her as a sympathetic character, with some quirks.

Absolutely agree.  What I hated on YS was the way they threw the character of Mary under the bus in order to rehabilitate George - in that they didn't want to portray him on YS the way he had been talked of on BBT.  Fair enough.  But even with the quasi canonizing of George they did manage to make Mary a sympathetic character to me.   

[Yeah No]

On 10/25/2024 at 1:14 PM, iarwain said:

You know, I had never really considered that Mary was supposed to be an insufferable character.  I had always seen her as a sympathetic character, with some quirks.

Google sums up how I feel about this far better than I can, lol:

"Yes, many viewers consider Sheldon's mother, Mary Cooper, to be "insufferable" on "Young Sheldon" due to her overly strict, religious, and often critical nature, which frequently leads to tense interactions with Sheldon and the rest of the family; her character is often portrayed as overly controlling and sometimes even manipulative. 

Key points about Mary's character that contribute to this perception: 

Strict religious beliefs:

Mary's strong religious views often influence her decisions and interactions with Sheldon, leading to conflicts when he questions or deviates from her beliefs.

High expectations:

She sets extremely high standards for Sheldon, often criticizing him for not meeting her expectations, even when they are unrealistic for his age.

Overprotective nature:

Mary can be overly protective of Sheldon, which sometimes hinders his development and independence.

Lack of emotional flexibility:

She often struggles to show empathy or understanding towards Sheldon's unique personality and needs."

I'll add to this that she did all of the above with her husband, mother, and other children as well.

[iarwain]

30 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

"Yes, many viewers consider Sheldon's mother, Mary Cooper, to be "insufferable" on "Young Sheldon" due to her overly strict, religious, and often critical nature, which frequently leads to tense interactions with Sheldon and the rest of the family; her character is often portrayed as overly controlling and sometimes even manipulative. 

Being Christian myself, I may be more inclined to be sympathetic toward her, although she doesn't always express it in the best way, and her character is certainly flawed.  I don't think she is meant to be portrayed as a villain though, not to the same extent Mandy's mother is.

Mary was probably more of a heroic figure in The Big Bang Theory.  She could usually solve Sheldon's problems pretty quickly and easily.

[Yeah No]

6 hours ago, iarwain said:

Being Christian myself, I may be more inclined to be sympathetic toward her, although she doesn't always express it in the best way, and her character is certainly flawed.  I don't think she is meant to be portrayed as a villain though, not to the same extent Mandy's mother is.

No, she's not a villain, at least I never said she was. And I'm a Christian too, just not fond of overly judgmental ones, which I think she can be at times.

Also, this was my quote about Mary in its entirety:

On 10/25/2024 at 3:32 AM, Yeah No said:

And Mandy's mother is even more insufferable than Mary. At least we sort-of care about Mary despite her ways but with this woman there's just nothing to want on my screen.

 

Edited October 27 by Yeah No

[Dimity]

12 hours ago, Yeah No said:

High expectations:

She sets extremely high standards for Sheldon, often criticizing him for not meeting her expectations, even when they are unrealistic for his age.

I have to disagree with google on this one.  I don't think her standards are unrealistically high, for Sheldon or for the other two for that matter.  Or even for George when it comes to that!  I think a lot of people come to shows set in an earlier time and expect the characters to act the way they would act (theoretically) in 2024.  I have some issues with the way Mary, in particular, was portrayed on YS but where her parenting was concerned I thought she was shown to be a good mother who was out of her depth with Sheldon.

Edited October 27 by Dimity

[possibilities]

I like Mary. I'm not even a Christian, but I thought her uptightness and judgments were tempered by the fact that even if you crossed her values line, she would still love you and treat you well.

I think that she was often exasperated because she was not getting the support she needed, and people were never appreciating her enough for what she did for the family. She worked outside the home and did the house stuff and people took her for granted. George could sit down when he came home from work, and Mary never got to rest at all.

I also thought she was sometimes too lenient with Sheldon, other times too over-protective, but that is pretty common when it comes to parents, who have a tough job and make mistakes. She had a difficult assignment, and again-- no support. Most people rolled their eyes at Sheldon or pranked him, hardly anyone knew what to do with him, so for her not to sometimes make mistakes is a lot to ask of her, in my opinion.

Edited October 28 by possibilities
fix typo

[JayDub1987]

My biggest knock on Mary was that outside of a couple instances, she only acknowledged her other two kids when they were doing something she didn’t like. Sheldon was golden in her eyes and the other two were either nonexistent or problematic. 

[chitowngirl]

A thread to discuss and analyze characters and plots from Young Sheldon vs Georgie and Mandy.

I’m open to suggestions for the title thread. I just edited the one that was in Young Sheldon.

Edited October 27 by chitowngirl

[Daff]

11 hours ago, Yeah No said:

No, she's not a villain, at least I never said she was. And I'm a Christian too, just not fond of overly judgmental ones, which I think she can be at times.

Also, this was my quote about Mary in its entirety:

 

You’re right, she was judgmental at times, but never to the extent that the tables were turned on HER by the community when G and M refused to marry. She never went out and chastised the “sinner” in the public square, as was done to her (and it wasn’t even her own transgression!) She even lost her job for C sake.

[Yeah No]

3 hours ago, possibilities said:

I like Mary. I'm not even a Christian, but I thought her uptightness and judgments were tempered by the fact that even if you crossed her values line, she would still love you and treat you well.

I think that she was often exasperated because she was not getting the support she needed, and people were never appreciating her enough for what she did for the family. She worked outside the home and did the house stuff and people took her for granted. George could sit down when he came home from work, and Mary never got to rest at all.

I also thought she was sometimes too lenient with Sheldon, other times too over-protective, but that is pretty common when it comes to parents, who have a tough job and make mistakes. She had a difficult assignment, and again-- no support. Most people rolled their eyes at Sheldon or pranked him, hardly anyone knew what to do with him, so for her to sometimes make mistakes is a lot to ask of her, in my opinion.

No doubt any parent would have had a difficult assignment with Sheldon and I suppose she could have done far worse. Some of it for me with Mary is a cultural and values difference that rubs me the wrong way. My mother was born 100 years ago but she was light years more sophisticated, progressive and less rigid than Mary. And yet she had very high standards for me and led by example. And Sheldon aside, because he marches to the drum of his own special planet (and to some degree Georgie too), but Missy wouldn't be acting out so much in adolescence if Mary was such a great parent. She and her mother should be closer, but it's just not possible to have that kind of connection with Mary. She's very highly strung and every little thing makes her overthink and over-parent. Most of the time her style was overly dictatorial. My mother would have said she had "too many preconceived ideas" about everything. As much as the internet calls  BBT Mary a "villain", I see her as a much more evolved individual and one I would much rather have had as a mother than this earlier Mary. In general of course. YMMV. 

Edited October 27 by Yeah No

[shapeshifter]

Posted in response to thread starter's (@chitowngirl?) question (which I can't see anymore) about this thread's title:

I'm not sure that I'll be active on this board, but maybe include TBBT too since adult Georgie appears there a couple of times, as does Missy, and Mary more often.

If you want to keep it short but still include all 3 shows, maybe something like:

• From TBBT to YS to G's & M's 1st Wedding: Anomalies and More

Or maybe that's too many abbreviations.

ETA:
or maybe:

• Compare and Contrast “Georgie & Mandy” with TBBT and YS

Edited October 28 by shapeshifter

[Dimity]

If we include BBT there are just so many things that got referenced there that don't add up in the YS universe or the G&M universe.  The biggest being, of course, that in the gospel according to Big Bang the first grandchild was Missy's.  But I've let that go...mostly :).

[SoMuchTV]

4 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I'm not sure that I'll be active on this board, but maybe include TBBT too since adult Georgie appears there a couple of times, as does Missy, and Mary more often.

If you want to keep it short but still include all 3 shows, maybe something like:

• From TBBT to YS to G's & M's 1st Wedding: Anomalies and More

Or maybe that's too many abbreviations.

 

3 hours ago, Dimity said:

If we include BBT there are just so many things that got referenced there that don't add up in the YS universe or the G&M universe.  The biggest being, of course, that in the gospel according to Big Bang the first grandchild was Missy's.  But I've let that go...mostly :).

@chitowngirl
I wouldn’t object to including TBBT in this thread. A lot of that was hashed out already but if someone new wants to bring it up here I don’t see it being a major derailment.   Speaking of, maybe we need a Small Talk thread as well. I’m not starting any new threads tonight but I’ll try to remember to come back later and see about it. 

[Daff]

Over the summer, I watched all of Young Sheldon from the beginning, straight through the final season. I’ve never seen one episode of TBBT, although I saw ad clips and read comments about it in the YS thread. When I finished, I came to the conclusion that most of the inconsistencies could easily be chalked up to Sheldon’s misperceptions he has of his own childhood. There were many, especially around adult social interactions. I watched, mostly because of Annie Potts and the cute kid who played Sheldon. I didn’t dislike George, but saw him as a typical breadwinner resigned to the fact he was not in control of his lot in life after his marriage-destined to lay low and avoid rocking the boat unless absolutely necessary.

[shapeshifter]

6 hours ago, SoMuchTV said:

@chitowngirl
I wouldn’t object to including TBBT in this thread. A lot of that was hashed out already but if someone new wants to bring it up here I don’t see it being a major derailment.   Speaking of, maybe we need a Small Talk thread as well. I’m not starting any new threads tonight but I’ll try to remember to come back later and see about it. 

I could start a Small Talk thread if you want. 
Right now @chitowngirl's screen name is making me homesick for Ferrentino's deep dish pizza, which is totally a Small Talk topic since I doubt they have deep dish in Texas either (I'm in Western NY now).

[Tom Holmberg]

I was watching TBBT the other day and Sheldon said Georgie was 19 when he first married.

On 10/25/2024 at 12:14 PM, iarwain said:

I realize they need some conflict and some characters to stir the drama, but I think they made a mistake making her so annoying and unlikable. 

It's a sitcom (comedy), it doesn't necessarily need drama.

[Dimity]

8 hours ago, Daff said:

I’ve never seen one episode of TBBT, although I saw ad clips and read comments about it in the YS thread. When I finished, I came to the conclusion that most of the inconsistencies could easily be chalked up to Sheldon’s misperceptions he has of his own childhood.

If you watched TBBT - especially if you've watched it as it loops endlessly in reruns - you might feel a bit differently. 

On TBBT there were very specific memories that Sheldon shared that really were not open to misperception.  The Cooper family and Sheldon's childhood were different on TBBT and were changed when YS came on the air.  And very understandably.

George in particular was a very different person on TBBT as opposed to the George Cooper we all grew to love on YS.   All the characters differed somewhat but George definitely was the one who benefited the most when they decided to ignore a lot of what had been established on TBBT.

Edited October 28 by Dimity

[OlderThanDirt]

Missy is floundering because she lost her father who really saw and understood her (their scenes were the best thing in YS), and her twin who was her mirror image and the point to her counterpoint. Georgie could take up some of George's role in her life.

Mary's relationship with Missy is colored by Mary's own wild teenage years before she got pregnant and then married, and Missy's newborn health crisis which drove Mary to her church. I liked how the writers and Zoe made Mary a multi dimensional character. No perfect Father KnowsBest or Leave it to Beaver mom here. I'd like her to grow into the Mary of the first season of TBBT rather than the religious fanatic Sheldon thought she was.

[Daff]

17 hours ago, Dimity said:

specific memories that Sheldon shared that really were not open to misperception.

By definition, “memories” and “NOT OPEN to misperception” are mutually exclusive. Everyone’s memories are viewed through their own percepts at the time they are experienced. Time and again, Sheldon blew events way out of proportion and went into panic mode.

[shapeshifter]

On 10/28/2024 at 4:50 AM, shapeshifter said:

On 10/27/2024 at 10:39 PM, SoMuchTV said:

maybe we need a Small Talk thread as well. I’m not starting any new threads tonight but I’ll try to remember to come back later and see about it. 

I could start a Small Talk thread if you want. 

Your like  is my command. 
Have at the small talkin':

 

[Dimity]

3 hours ago, Daff said:

By definition, “memories” and “NOT OPEN to misperception” are mutually exclusive. Everyone’s memories are viewed through their own percepts at the time they are experienced.

When BBT was first on the air the show Young Sheldon was not even a gleam in Chuck Lorre's eye.  With few exceptions none of the families or childhoods of the main characters are depicted well and none more so than Sheldon's. 

There are references through the years of events that could not have been misperceptions or Sheldon remembering things and making himself the star and ignoring what was really happening.  Almost from the beginning George was presented in a very negative light by both Sheldon and by Mary.  There are numerous incidents that Sheldon recounts that are not cases of him misremembering, misperceiving or out and out lying about his father.

When they decided to do Young Sheldon they very much threw BBT Mary and Sheldon under the bus in order to redeem the character of George.  Which, to be honest, made the show what is was.  Had they gone with the George of BBT it would have been a very different, and much darker show.

Edited October 29 by Dimity

[Wanda]

On 10/29/2024 at 10:33 AM, Dimity said:

When BBT was first on the air the show Young Sheldon was not even a gleam in Chuck Lorre's eye.  With few exceptions none of the families or childhoods of the main characters are depicted well and none more so than Sheldon's. 

There are references through the years of events that could not have been misperceptions or Sheldon remembering things and making himself the star and ignoring what was really happening.  Almost from the beginning George was presented in a very negative light by both Sheldon and by Mary.  There are numerous incidents that Sheldon recounts that are not cases of him misremembering, misperceiving or out and out lying about his father.

When they decided to do Young Sheldon they very much threw BBT Mary and Sheldon under the bus in order to redeem the character of George.  Which, to be honest, made the show what is was.  Had they gone with the George of BBT it would have been a very different, and much darker show.

Mary’s comments and feelings towards George on TBBT could be explained away by her anger at him dying. Perhaps she never got over those feelings expressed at the funeral and it was easier for her to focus on the negatives (and amplify them) than to deal with her loss.

 

and Sheldon had convinced himself that his father cheated on his mother with a blonde (which turned out to be Mary in a wig she got in Germany) and that, along with his guilt that he didn’t say a proper goodbye to his father (see his reactions in Funeral) colored his memories. Yes he has an eidetic memory, but he also has difficulty changing his viewpoints even if he remembers everything. Memories aren’t created without context.

[Dimity]

2 minutes ago, Wanda said:

Mary’s comments and feelings towards George on TBBT could be explained away by her anger at him dying. Perhaps she never got over those feelings expressed at the funeral and it was easier for her to focus on the negatives (and amplify them) than to deal with her loss.

Again, I don't want to take anything away from fans of YS - I am a fan too - but the Big Bang Theory exists in the same universe but the Cooper family we 'meet' on BBT  bear only a passing resemblance to the family on YS.  There are numerous incidents recounted on BBT that are not Sheldon remembering things wrong.  They are writers making jokes or explaining things about Sheldon long before YS was ever created.  

[Wanda]

1 hour ago, Dimity said:

Again, I don't want to take anything away from fans of YS - I am a fan too - but the Big Bang Theory exists in the same universe but the Cooper family we 'meet' on BBT  bear only a passing resemblance to the family on YS.  There are numerous incidents recounted on BBT that are not Sheldon remembering things wrong.  They are writers making jokes or explaining things about Sheldon long before YS was ever created.  

But what YS did was “explain” many of the things we were told on TBBT. A big one being the blonde he caught his father cheating with. One of the last episodes of YS showed that what Sheldon always thought was actually incorrect. That it had been his mother in a blonde wig all along.
 

That leads to the conclusion that other inconsistencies were likely due to similar reasons…that Sheldon didn’t see the whole picture, or misread a situation. And those colored his memories of his father, who wasn’t there to correct him as he grew up.

 

I think that we are to believe YS is canon for Cooper family history rather than TBBT stories as one showed us, while the other was hearsay.

[Yeah No]

i just wanted to say that we have had these arguments before on the YS threads over the years. I have made similar points to all of you at different times. In certain ways I agree with @Dimity that at least some of the negative stuff about his father that Sheldon recalled on BBT long before YS came out likely did not fall into the category of misperception or lying. I think Sheldon DID misperceive his father having sex with a blonde woman but he didn't misperceive his father in other ways that weren't flattering to George's character but those things were later whitewashed by YS in order to redeem George's character.

Sheldon was always inconsistent in his perceptions of things. Sometimes his memory was spot on in its perceptions and in other ways it was skewed by his assumptions. I agree with someone above in general that everyone sees things through their own particular lens and that is often not consistent with a completely unbiased view but I say that doesn't mean we don't sometimes get it pretty close to right too. And even Sheldon did at times, even just based on what I witnessed of him on BBT.

[Dimity]

On 11/5/2024 at 1:28 AM, Yeah No said:

I think Sheldon DID misperceive his father having sex with a blonde woman but he didn't misperceive his father in other ways that weren't flattering to George's character but those things were later whitewashed by YS in order to redeem George's character.

I didn't mind them doing that as otherwise Young Sheldon would have been unwatchable for me.  What I did mind (and have touched on this in another thread here) is the way they changed Mary's character in order to make George more palatable. 

It reminds me of an article someone here once linked in the Everybody Loves Raymond thread.  The gist of which was the sitcom wives are made out to be shrewish in order to make a terrible husband more sympathetic and in YS's case a better father.

[Yeah No]

5 hours ago, Dimity said:

I didn't mind them doing that as otherwise Young Sheldon would have been unwatchable for me.  What I did mind (and have touched on this in another thread here) is the way they changed Mary's character in order to make George more palatable. 

It reminds me of an article someone here once linked in the Everybody Loves Raymond thread.  The gist of which was the sitcom wives are made out to be shrewish in order to make a terrible husband more sympathetic and in YS's case a better father.

Just how did they change Mary's character in your view to make George more palatable? I called her "insufferable" and judgmental but you didn't seem to agree with that. But those were some of the ways I thought she was changed to make George more palatable.

[Dimity]

6 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

Just how did they change Mary's character in your view to make George more palatable?

We never saw Mary as a wife on BBT of course but we did see her as a mother.  She was strong and she stood no nonsense from Sheldon.  On YS on the other hand, especially in the first few seasons, George was the one who was firmer with Sheldon and less likely to baby him and let him have his own way.  

I felt then, and still feel now, that this was a deliberate choice on the part of the powers that be.  George got to be a better parent than he was ever conveyed to be on BBT and they did this at Mary's expense.

The Mary who could correct Sheldon and make him toe the line on BBT was not the Mary we saw on YS.

[Yeah No]

On 11/21/2024 at 10:59 PM, Dimity said:

We never saw Mary as a wife on BBT of course but we did see her as a mother.  She was strong and she stood no nonsense from Sheldon.  On YS on the other hand, especially in the first few seasons, George was the one who was firmer with Sheldon and less likely to baby him and let him have his own way.  

I felt then, and still feel now, that this was a deliberate choice on the part of the powers that be.  George got to be a better parent than he was ever conveyed to be on BBT and they did this at Mary's expense.

The Mary who could correct Sheldon and make him toe the line on BBT was not the Mary we saw on YS.

I agree with you that in the first few seasons of YS Mary was more likely to cave in and baby Sheldon, but he was just a little kid then so I figured it was partly because of that. I felt that in later seasons of YS Mary became more dour, stricter and more rigid with Sheldon (and everyone else too) in general as her general satisfaction in her marriage and life went down and she "took refuge in her religion" as Sheldon once said on BBT.

So by the end of YS she was actually becoming more like the Mary we saw on BBT. Obviously in the time period between shows she continued to change and evolve after her husband's death and became more lax about certain things in her own life and in Sheldon's too. She surprised the crap out of Sheldon by being so accepting of him and Amy "living in sin like a couple of New Yorkers" (Sheldon's words), LOL. And of course there was the episode where Sheldon and Howard came to Texas unannounced and Sheldon saw her having "coitus" on the couch through her living room window, LOL.

Also, I thought they partially redeemed George on BBT on that episode in which Amy finds the video tape of him giving a pep talk as coach to the HS football team that older Sheldon took to heart and helped him deal with his disappointment over thinking that his and Amy's theory was disproven. Of course that was later after YS was already airing. It made me think that the show was trying to make us see that older Sheldon might have been a little too hard on his dad in his recollection of him.

Edited November 23 by Yeah No
Grammar.

[tkc]

Of course the inconsistencies in the depiction of George Sr. exist because in TBBT they never needed to be connected to the third-person viewpoint we were eventually to be granted in YS. However, a strong case can be made for TBBT’s Sheldon simply being an unreliable narrator, which is something others have already said.

For example, Sheldon’s story of Mary putting hamster poop in George’s chewing tobacco could have been Sheldon misunderstanding a joke told by his mother. The constant fighting that Sheldon references sounded more serious in TBBT, but in YS it mostly played as sitcom-style pointed banter. Shooting the TV after a football game? George buys a new TV to replace a broken one, and jokingly tells Sheldon that he took the old one out back and shot it.

We’re given plenty of examples in TBBT where Sheldon misapprehends what people say and even what he observes, when it comes to interpreting people’s actions. You could even say that was one of the main premises of TBBT.

Ultimately, there’s probably enough wiggle room that viewers can choose their own adventures when it comes to reconciling the three series.

[Dimity]

8 hours ago, tkc said:

Ultimately, there’s probably enough wiggle room that viewers can choose their own adventures when it comes to reconciling the three series.

I don't think we really need to reconcile things.  In the way of most sitcoms the writers handwave away whatever was said in the last episode in order to get a joke in the next one.  These shows aren't documentaries and viewers are perfectly free to decide that Sheldon (and Mary too for that matter) was an unreliable narrator on BBT and viewers are also free to say "no he wasn't and let me list for you the reasons why!"

Edited November 24 by Dimity

[Yeah No]

8 hours ago, Dimity said:

I don't think we really need to reconcile things.  In the way of most sitcoms the writers handwave away whatever was said in the last episode in order to get a joke in the next one. 

Right. So then why are we trying to make sense out of it?