S02.E05: The Squash Courtship of Freddy's Father

[Sarah 103]

Quote

Frasier's agent Bebe Glazer visits, leading Frasier to wonder how he can have more in common with her daughter than with his own son.

 

[Sarah 103]

This episode made me miss Niles more than usual. (Full disclosure- Niles was my absolute favorite character in the original series). Even though David was the one reading his father's comments on Frasier's memoirs, Niles was the voice I was hearing in my head. It's amazing how perfectly the writers were able to capture Niles without having him there at all. 

I couldn't help trying to mentally rewrite the episode to include a scene with Niles as the one to tell Frasier what he really needed to hear most and remind him of what their own relationship with Martin was like for most of their lives. 

In addition, this episode me realize one of the biggest problems with David; the character doesn't really have a role to play or a reason to exist in this series. They already had Alan to be the other stuffed shirt who likes the finer/fancy/high-brow things. Eve exists as someone for Freddy to play off and complain to. Olivia has the nervous energy and shares comic relief duties with Alan. 

The only thing I can think of is they felt they absolutely had to include David to make up for the fact that Niles and Daphne weren't going to be characters in this series. 

[Magnumfangirl]

This one was hilarious!

[SoMuchTV]

Wait, so Phoebe is really Bebe’s daughter?  I just assumed the whole thing was a scam. So the dates do line up enough that Frasier could plausibly be her father, but Bebe knows he’s not? I'm feeling a little confused. 

[Annber03]

Man, they really made the whole thing with Phoebe and Frasier so convincing! I should'e known, though, that Bebe had something up her sleeve - the way Frasier called her and Phoebe out was perfect and so true to their history together. And I loved the interaction between Bebe and Phoebe afterward, too. Especilaly the way Phoebe imitated Bebe's manner of speaking/vocal style. I'd be all for seeing Phoebe again, she's fun and she's perfect casting for Bebe's daughter. The whole thing with Phoebe was a good contrast to Frasier's whole thing with Freddie. On the one hand, I'm with Freddie in his reaction to Frasier's "alien" remark, but on the other hand, we are talking about Frasier, who was named after a beloved lab rat his mom had, so...on that level I think it kind of tracks :p. 

The running thing of David quoting NIiles' comments on Frasier's memoir was fun, too (the Normandy line...XD). And Daphne , by contrast, liking it. I do appreciate the occasional nods and mentions to him when possible. Also liked the whole thing with Olivia and Alan this episode (and Olivia looked really pretty in the scdne where she and Frasier were in Alan's office). 

[Bumblebee84047]

This was my favortie episode of the series!

[shapeshifter]

7 hours ago, Bumblebee84047 said:

This was my favortie episode of the series!

Bebe filled one of the pairs of shoes Niles left behind.

 

The repetitive "joke"
(of Olivia stealing/plagiarising Alan's answers to Frasier's questions) 
fell flat to me.

Edited October 11 by shapeshifter

[Blakeston]

On 10/10/2024 at 10:39 PM, SoMuchTV said:

Wait, so Phoebe is really Bebe’s daughter?  I just assumed the whole thing was a scam. So the dates do line up enough that Frasier could plausibly be her father, but Bebe knows he’s not? I'm feeling a little confused. 

Watching the episode, I assumed that Phoebe was just some random person who Bebe hired (or otherwise manipulated) to fleece Frasier. But my take was that in the end, we were supposed to believe that Phoebe is Bebe's actual daughter, and that Bebe knows that Frasier isn't the father.

It's ambiguous whether she was really born in 1995, but I'm choosing to believe that was just part of the scam, because Rachel Bloom is clearly not in her twenties.

[Yeah No]

I always loved episodes with Bebe on OG Frasier and it was nice to see the actress again after so many years. She has finally grown into her overdramatic, Katherine Hepburn-ish voice. I was fully expecting something crazy from her but didn't realize it was the daughter until just before it became obvious. My husband and I figured it out at the same time.

I agree with the others that it was ambiguous at the end as to whether Rachel Bloom was her real daughter or someone she hired to portray one. I'm with @Blakeston that I don't think she is her real daughter because no way would Rachel Bloom be born in 1995. I really liked her in "Crazy Ex-Girlfriend" so it was nice to see her again too. 

[shapeshifter]

39 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

I don't think she is her real daughter because no way would Rachel Bloom be born in 1995.

She's just 8 years older than that, so they could still go there if they want to.
I think it was left a little ambiguous on purpose.

[Yeah No]

23 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

She's just 8 years older than that, so they could still go there if they want to.
I think it was left a little ambiguous on purpose.

I don't know that I give the show enough credit for that. If it did it was clunky and not obvious enough to the audience if they were leaving it open ended to take up in the future or just to leave us wondering. And either way I just feel that's not the best writing. It's not just one but two levels of ambiguity.

It's not Rachel's age that's making me not believe that she was born in 1995 but her demeanor. She comes off as older than that to me. If she was going to play someone 8 years younger I would expect her to act a little younger.  I remember her from 2015 in "Crazy Ex Girlfriend" and I feel like she acted older here than there when she really was several years younger.

[Irlandesa]

She spent most of the episode acting like Frasier so he could believe she was his daughter.  Then she changed her demeanor in the last minutes of the episode to mimic Bebe. 

So of course she acted older.  She modeled her performance in this episode after two almost 70-year-olds. 

For what it's worth, all of the press that came out announcing that Rachel Bloom would appear on Frasier said she was Phoebe's daughter. I don't think there's any question about that fact.  They even finished the episode with an exposition dump revealing their grand scheme that was unnecessary to anyone watching the episode.  I think if they were going to say that Phoebe was just pretending, that's when they would have exposed it. 

 

[Blakeston]

I definitely think Phoebe was supposed to be Bebe's daughter. Her speaking like Bebe as soon as we saw the two of them alone together confirmed that for me.

The part I doubt is that she was born in '95. The only reason her age was brought up was part of a scam, and I think Frasier spent enough time with Bebe that he would have noticed her being pregnant during the time she was his agent.

The writers may not have even considered whether it was true, but it being a lie makes far more sense for me for the above reasons, and because of the character's appearance.

[Yeah No]

1 hour ago, Irlandesa said:

She spent most of the episode acting like Frasier so he could believe she was his daughter.  Then she changed her demeanor in the last minutes of the episode to mimic Bebe. 

So of course she acted older.  She modeled her performance in this episode after two almost 70-year-olds. 

For what it's worth, all of the press that came out announcing that Rachel Bloom would appear on Frasier said she was Phoebe's daughter. I don't think there's any question about that fact.  They even finished the episode with an exposition dump revealing their grand scheme that was unnecessary to anyone watching the episode.  I think if they were going to say that Phoebe was just pretending, that's when they would have exposed it. 

 

If she really was Bebe's daughter why would she have to mimic her? To convince Frasier? She could have just told him. She already confessed the truth about not being his daughter so why not? And I don't think he needed to be convinced of being Bebe's daugther anyway. If that was her real personality it just didn't come off convincing after all the acting to appear like Frasier. If that was supposed to be funny I didn't find it to be because it was more confusing than anything else. I think Rachel Bloom is a great actress and can be incredibly funny, I just felt that whatever she was doing here came off clunky and not convincing or funny. If she was trying to act like two 70 year olds in a funny way it just didn't work for me. And I'm not necessarily blaming her for that. I feel like this show theoretically has some good bones and some of the writing is good, but something's off like the casting, the acting, the timing or the direction. Or all of the above.

12 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

I definitely think Phoebe was supposed to be Bebe's daughter. Her speaking like Bebe as soon as we saw the two of them alone together confirmed that for me.

The part I doubt is that she was born in '95. The only reason her age was brought up was part of a scam, and I think Frasier spent enough time with Bebe that he would have noticed her being pregnant during the time she was his agent.

The writers may not have even considered whether it was true, but it being a lie makes far more sense for me for the above reasons, and because of the character's appearance.

She could have been acting to appear like Bebe's daughter but I agree with the rest of your post. I had the same thought that Frasier would have known if Bebe was pregnant and had a child.

Edited October 15 by Yeah No

[Irlandesa]

12 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

If she really was Bebe's daughter why would she have to mimic her?

I don't disagree that some parts of this came off as clunky but I was speaking more of Rachel Bloom than Phoebe. 

So Rachel initially played Phoebe as acting similar to Frasier.  But in the end, Phoebe stopped "acting" like Frasier and Rachel instead modeled "real Phoebe's" cadence after Harriet Samson Harris's Bebe.

[Camera One]

This was definitely one of the funnier episodes so far.  The criticisms from "Niles" were funny and I too could sort of imagine Niles saying them. 

An older Bebe has lost some of her creepiness, but she was still used well.  Much better than Roz.  Bebe's daughter also had an energy and a connection with Frasier that few of the guest stars so far have had.  

[txhorns79]

On 10/10/2024 at 8:16 PM, Sarah 103 said:

In addition, this episode me realize one of the biggest problems with David; the character doesn't really have a role to play or a reason to exist in this series. They already had Alan to be the other stuffed shirt who likes the finer/fancy/high-brow things. Eve exists as someone for Freddy to play off and complain to. Olivia has the nervous energy and shares comic relief duties with Alan. 

I did notice how much they've sidelined the character so far this season, and it does make it obvious how easily you could cut David from the cast without it really changing much.  

On 10/15/2024 at 12:57 AM, Blakeston said:

I definitely think Phoebe was supposed to be Bebe's daughter. Her speaking like Bebe as soon as we saw the two of them alone together confirmed that for me.

When they were alone at the end of the episode, she did refer to Bebe as "Mother," and Bebe called herself "Mummy."  Now I know that could just be another bonkers Bebe tic, but I do think we were supposed to take that as confirmation they were mother and daughter. 

[Yeah No]

On 10/15/2024 at 1:20 AM, Irlandesa said:

I don't disagree that some parts of this came off as clunky but I was speaking more of Rachel Bloom than Phoebe. 

So Rachel initially played Phoebe as acting similar to Frasier.  But in the end, Phoebe stopped "acting" like Frasier and Rachel instead modeled "real Phoebe's" cadence after Harriet Samson Harris's Bebe.

I get what you mean but I still found it clunky, forced, and just not funny. I only know Rachel Bloom from "Crazy Ex-Girlfriend" and she was hysterical in that role so I suppose my expectations are high.

[shapeshifter]

4 hours ago, Yeah No said:

I get what you mean but I still found it clunky, forced, and just not funny. I only know Rachel Bloom from "Crazy Ex-Girlfriend" and she was hysterical in that role so I suppose my expectations are high.

I didn't watch Rachel Bloom from "Crazy Ex-Girlfriend" but I thought her acting and delivery here was likely a matter of scripting notes and direction. 
I also didn't watch OG Frasier in its original run, and have not done a complete watch of the episodes in order. 
Still, I wonder if David Angell hadn't died on a hijacked plane in 2001 if this reboot would be better.

[Yeah No]

18 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I didn't watch Rachel Bloom from "Crazy Ex-Girlfriend" but I thought her acting and delivery here was likely a matter of scripting notes and direction. 
I also didn't watch OG Frasier in its original run, and have not done a complete watch of the episodes in order. 
Still, I wonder if David Angell hadn't died on a hijacked plane in 2001 if this reboot would be better.

Oh yeah, I remember now he died on one of the Sept. 11 planes....So sad. 😢

I agree about her acting here. She was fantastic in "Crazy Ex". I think you might like that show. In fact I would bet on it!

[astrohip]

http://kenlevine.blogspot.com/2021/09/9-11-and-david-lynn-angel.html