S02.E08: The Queen Who Ever Was

[magdalene]

9 hours ago, Oscirus said:

There is nothing he couldve done differently to solve the dragon problem

Not helping in the killing of Aegon's  dragon might have helped not to create such a dragon problem for him and the Greens?

[AntFTW]

6 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Seems like showing up with a dragon is the only way anyone will remember she exists. If the dragon ate her I can imagine her family in ten years going, "Wait, what happened to that other girl that used to be here?"

She has to be the worst baby sitter ever right? Rhaenyra trusted Rhaena with her babies and Rhaena abandoned the babies to starve and be filthy in the vastness of The Vale.

[Oscirus]

2 hours ago, magdalene said:

Not helping in the killing of Aegon's  dragon might have helped not to create such a dragon problem for him and the Greens?

 

 

7-2 with a dragon thats not a particularly good fighter is a little better, but not much

 

Also how is the vale so nonchalant about  losing the daughter of the targaryan with a really bad temper?

Edited August 7 by Oscirus

[Roseanna]

12 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Of course women could and did have authority (which makes Rhaenyra's constant "What would have me do?" even more baffling), it's just that we have never seen Helaena exercise any authority and have had several episodes of everyone basically telling Alicent "I am sorry, do you work here?".

What I have meant to say was that I wish the writers had studied ways which women used authority in real history. Instead, they created Rhaenyra thinking that her rebellious nature and modern morality would please the audience (but making her a fool not to prepare for succession) and Alicent who is abused by this father's ambition thinking that the audience feels pity towards her because she has been "blind" (would be OK if the story was told only from her POV, now the audience knows too much).  

In both cases, women "don't want war" as if it makes them virtuous.   

10 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

The infamous quote from Cersei generally applies:  "When you play the Game of Thrones, you win or you die."

I would add: if you win, the price is too high, your loved ones and your soul, i.e. there is no real victory. 

[Lady S.]

On 8/5/2024 at 12:08 PM, Tachi Rocinante said:

Why can't they film 2 seasons at the same time like many movies have done?

2 movies is still far less runtime than 2 seasons of televison, whether 8 eps each or 10-12.

On 8/5/2024 at 7:51 PM, Stardancer Supreme said:

I'm glad I decided to wait until the season was over to watch the "Inside The Episodes" because there is no logical reason (I know, looking for logic in a show about dragons...) for Silverwing and Ulf to be going to KL 2 minutes after meeting each other, even on Rhaenyra's orders.  She shouldn't be able to order dragons around, because if she could do that, what do you need riders for?

My canon would be that Silverwing was so excited to have a rider that she took him on a joyride near her former home, the King's Landing dragonpit.  Remember, she asked Addam could he get Seasmoke to Dragonstone, so it doesn't make sense for Rhaenyra to send Silverwing and a brand new rider to KL.

Haven't seen anyone source the idea that Rhaenyra sent Silverwing to KL, but it's not in the Inside the Ep. As you say, it makes no sense that she would send Ulf, of all people, on a mission minutes after he bumbled his way into a dragon. This ep shows that Addam, who's been vouched for by Corlys and said all the right words after riding Seasmoke, is the only new dragonrider she kinda trusts. 

9 hours ago, Affogato said:

I thought he was genuinely trying to be inclusive and a good king. When dealing with Aemond, no good deed goes unpunished. 

Right, and at a time when everyone else was blaming Aemond for kinslaying an envoy while they were at least trying to get Rhaenyra to accept peace terms. I think he genuinely had no idea of Aemond's resentment for him. It's like his reaction when confronted about assaulting Dyanna "just a bit of fun, she didn't have to get upset". Perhaps that makes his childhood bullying worse, that it wasn't coming from any real personal malice. But I don't think that dynamic continued into their teen years, so there's at least a chance Aemond wouldn't betray him if he hadn't slipped back into that role in the brothel scene.

As for Aemond/Helaena, worth pointing out that he not only didn't comfort her in her grief, he's the only one to have no reaction to her son's death. Well, except for pride at being the true target. I don't think that's inconsistent with someone who's decided love is a weakness and to base his entire personality around acting like he himself had all the dangerous power of his giant dragon. That enforced hard facade isn't just for Alicent. The point of making Luke's killing an accident imo (and giving him a sad child backstory) is that he didn't have to be this way, he wasn't always evil, but after he became a kinslayer without really meaning to, he had a choice whether to just lean into that or admit he lost control of the dragon he bases his entire identity around. He chose to lean into it and lean into it hard, stripping away his humanity layer by layer as he gained more power, including whatever childhood fondness or soft spot he had for Helaena. A sympathetic backstory does not mean he was going to stay sympathetic or that the writers were changing him from a full-on villain. (For all that people complain of the show's sometimes annoying Rhaenyra bias, surely things would feel even more lopsided if Aemond were given more screentime to do war crimes, which perhaps explains why Alicent remains the Team Green focus since Aegon's rule didn't last all that long.)

Welp, guess that's it, folks. An okay ep, but very disappointing as a finale. Hope to see some of you next year for the Dunk and Egg show. (I don't think it's too spoilery to say there's no dragon battles there but if you miss heroic characters like in early GoT, this should be a series for you. Imho those stories are the ultimate proof that GRRM is no cynic.)

[AntFTW]

26 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

7-2 with a dragon thats not a particularly good fighter is a little better, but not much

We also have 7 with dragons that aren’t particularly good fighters.

I think at best, each side has one battle-tested dragon paired with a seasoned rider; Daemon and Caraxes, Aemond and Vhagar

Everyone else is a toss up for now.

I’m of the opinion that a dragon in battle is only as effective as their rider. Sunfyre could have been better were it not for Aegon’s stupidity. Argon decided to test his dragon on a bigger and older, battle-tested dragon with a much more seasoned rider. Rhaenyra says in his episode that Dreamfyre was hatched when Aegon the Conqueror was king. I imagine Dreamfyre to be a reasonably large dragon if the dragon is that old but I don’t think Helaena would be a very effective dragon rider in battle so that makes Dreamfyre less effective.

I really struggled to figure out who I was missing from the 7 dragons not realizing I was forgetting Addam every time.

[Lady S.]

8 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

We also have 7 with dragons that aren’t particularly good fighters.

I think at best, each side has one battle-tested dragon paired with a seasoned rider; Daemon and Caraxes, Aemond and Vhagar

And only 5 of those dragons are adults. The other two are Vermax and Moondancer, which Rhaenyra does not want in battle. So it was 5 adult dragons vs. 2 when it could have been 5 vs. 3. Aegon is no warrior and should not have gone into battle when he did, but that's still better than someone who just refuses to fly in her own defense. Even if Aemond could force her onto her dragon he can't force her to command that dragon. 

[AntFTW]

17 minutes ago, Lady S. said:

And only 5 of those dragons are adults. The other two are Vermax and Moondancer, which Rhaenyra does not want in battle. So it was 5 adult dragons vs. 2 when it could have been 5 vs. 3. Aegon is no warrior and should not have gone into battle when he did, but that's still better than someone who just refuses to fly in her own defense. Even if Aemond could force her onto her dragon he can't force her to command that dragon. 

Agreed.

7 vs 2 (assuming Aegon and Sunfyre were able) and we gave Rhaenyra the benefit of 7 despite that 3 of the dragons have never seen battle (and 2 of the 3 are relatively young dragons as you mention), and 3 others have inexperienced riders. We accept that having 7 is better even with inexperienced riders and dragons that are untested in combat.

Having 2 dragons is better than having 1, and Aemond roasted a dragon for his side.

Edited August 7 by AntFTW

[paigow]

Corlys is totally being set up to die - saving one or both of his bastards.

[baldryanr]

5 hours ago, Roseanna said:

In both cases, women "don't want war" as if it makes them virtuous. 

It makes both of them stupid since both sides want a total victory.  Alicent for believing there's a way for her side to win without Rhaenyra and all her kids (plus Daemon) dead, and Rhaenyra for clinging to some fantasy of a bloodless resolution when the other side has the biggest dragon in the world.  Dany and Tyrion had the same naive idea in GOT - you cannot be a nice conqueror.

 

[proserpina65]

17 hours ago, Affogato said:

I thought he was genuinely trying to be inclusive and a good king. When dealing with Aemond, no good deed goes unpunished. 

Aegon didn't care about being a good king.  He just wanted people to like him.

 

10 hours ago, magdalene said:

Not helping in the killing of Aegon's  dragon might have helped not to create such a dragon problem for him and the Greens?

They'd still be seriously outnumbered dragon-wise, though, and still need Dreamfyre to have any chance of protecting Kings Landing against Rhaenyra's dragons.  I'm not saying the decision to burn Aegon & Sunfrye wasn't bad, but even if that hadn't happened, they'd still be pretty desperate for another dragon at this point.

Edited August 7 by proserpina65

[Chicago Redshirt]

19 hours ago, baldryanr said:

Aegon's not smart, but even he has to know conceding = beheading, burning, or some other mode execution.  He's permanently crippled (and likely in a lot of pain) so it's not inconceivable he's suicidal, but in that case he should just ask Grand Maester Orwyle for a quick and painless poison. 

They could be wild sheep.  The bigger question is why the Arryn guards apparently had no objection to the Queen's stepdaughter/daughter-in-law to be just running off to apparently Bear Grylls her way through the Vale.

There actually could be some other form of accommodation made for Aegon that doesn't involve his death. Since he is not able-bodied, going to the Wall is probably not in the cards, but it still could be. If he concedes, he is no threat at all since who would follow him if he tries to re-assert a claim and since he can't have kids. And so hypothetically Rhae could let him live.

As you say, he could be suicidal or at least close enough to it that he doesn't care too much if he lives or dies. The reason for not just killing himself is that it puts Aemond -- the guy who put him in this sorry state -- on the throne. I could see Aegon out of pure spite willing himself to live so that Aegon doesn't get rewarded for his near-murder, and not wanting to die because that means Aemond wins. 

None of the HOD guards seem very adept at doing their jobs. Not the ones who were to protect Aegon's kid, not the ones who couldn't tell the twins apart, not the ones who let Rhae sneak up to Ali in the sept and get away, or the ones who let the mob nearly assault Ali and Helaena, or the ones who let Ali leave King's Landing and go to Dragonstone.  

Edited August 7 by Chicago Redshirt

[proserpina65]

5 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

None of the HOD guards seem very adept at doing their jobs. Not the ones who were to protect Aegon's kid, not the ones who couldn't tell the twins apart, not the ones who let Rhae sneak up to Ali in the sept and get away, or the ones who let Ali leave King's Landing and go to Dragonstone.  

I wouldn't trust any of them to guard anything.

[Affogato]

32 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Aegon didn't care about being a good king.  He just wanted people to like him.

 

They'd still be seriously outnumbered dragon-wise, though, and still need Dreamfyre to have any chance of protecting Kings Landing against Rhaenyra's dragons.  I'm not saying the decision to burn Aegon & Sunfrye wasn't bad, but even if that hadn't happened, they'd still be pretty desperate for another dragon at this point.

I still maintain that Aemond is a malignant narcissist-and Aegon may have narcissistic fleas, exacerbated by alcoholism, but has normal feelings. I would guess Aemond would goad Aegon and Aegon would take the blame. Aemond is smarter than Aegon, for sure, but also meaner. 

[proserpina65]

59 minutes ago, Affogato said:

I still maintain that Aemond is a malignant narcissist-and Aegon may have narcissistic fleas, exacerbated by alcoholism, but has normal feelings. I would guess Aemond would goad Aegon and Aegon would take the blame. Aemond is smarter than Aegon, for sure, but also meaner. 

We clearly disagree so I'm not going to keep going round and round about this.

[Affogato]

41 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

We clearly disagree so I'm not going to keep going round and round about this.

I’m going through a phase where my major pet peeve is people romanticizing narcissists. I have personal reasons. I don’t like Aegon at all, even a little bit, but I feel protective of him. 

Edited August 7 by Affogato

[Roseanna]

2 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

The reason for not just killing himself is that it puts Aemond -- the guy who put him in this sorry state -- on the throne.

And Rhaenyra has just the same reason not to kill Aegon *before* Aemond is dead. Aegon isn't - at least for now - a danger. There is still a small possibility that Larys is right: Aegon may have a chance to regain the throne if the rivals kill each other. 

Thinking anew about Rhaenyra and Alicent's discussion, Rhaenyra still have much to learn. Why not just accept Alicent's offer that certainly would have saved lives - it was no need to say to her that Aegon would be killed but the the will to humiliate her was stronger. 

[AntFTW]

3 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

Thinking anew about Rhaenyra and Alicent's discussion, Rhaenyra still have much to learn. Why not just accept Alicent's offer that certainly would have saved lives - it was no need to say to her that Aegon would be killed but the the will to humiliate her was stronger. 

Are you seperating Rhaenyra saying that Aegon would have to be executed and Rhaenyra actually doing it if the plan succeeded?

I'm of the opinion that for Rhaenyra to take the throne and rule effectively, Aegon needs to die. It has escalated to that point. I agree with you that Rhaenyra could have omitted that.

[Jack Shaftoe]

If Helaena has such convenient visions, can't she just dream the schematics of Euron's scorpions and show those pesky dragons who the boss is?

 

[Chicago Redshirt]

They already have Scorpion tech in this era -- Hugh was commissioned to help build some and the Crown kind of jerked him around on payment.

Maybe he'll come to regret that he did as good a job as he did, or maybe he will be able to exploit some weakness in their construction or insider knowledge about their placement like in Rogue One/Star Wars.

That is, if Rhae ever gets around to attacking KL with her dragon surplus.

[proserpina65]

2 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

If Helaena has such convenient visions, can't she just dream the schematics of Euron's scorpions and show those pesky dragons who the boss is?

 

Those scorpions were based on plans found in the Red Keep's archives because scorpions existed during the Dance of the Dragons (and earlier, actually).  We saw them mounted on the Red Keep when Aemond was returning on Vhagar in episode one and when Ulf was taking his joy ride on Silverwing.

What got me was all of a sudden Helaena's visions were crystal clear enough to be able to tell Aemond how he's going to die (assuming she's right, of course), plus now she can teleport into Daemon's visions?  LIke what the actual fuck?

2 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

That is, if Rhae ever gets around to attacking KL with her dragon surplus.

At the rate they're going, that should happen in the series' finale at the end of season four.  After much, much more talking and several more secret trips between her and Alicent.

[Roseanna]

8 hours ago, baldryanr said:

It makes both of them stupid since both sides want a total victory.  Alicent for believing there's a way for her side to win without Rhaenyra and all her kids (plus Daemon) dead, and Rhaenyra for clinging to some fantasy of a bloodless resolution when the other side has the biggest dragon in the world.  Dany and Tyrion had the same naive idea in GOT - you cannot be a nice conqueror.

 

The problem is that it's their own country and their own people - what will be left after victory with Daemon's strategy "we kill a hundred enemies for one of ours, no mercy"? 

There should be an offer of mercy at least in the beginning, in style "You are going to loose, don't die in vain, abandon the usurper and recognise the rightful ruler, and the past is forgiven and forgotten." 

 

[steph369]

On 8/5/2024 at 9:07 AM, Enigma X said:

filled with political intrigue. 

I beg to differ. There wasn’t even much of that. I don’t need action, but there wasn’t much of anything in this episode.  

[steph369]

1 hour ago, proserpina65 said:

After much, much more talking and several more secret trips between her and Alicent.

😆 No, please, not more of those!

[paigow]

6 hours ago, Roseanna said:

There should be an offer of mercy at least in the beginning

 Daemon knows Aemond will fight to the death so offering mercy is pointless...

[Roseanna]

3 hours ago, paigow said:

 Daemon knows Aemond will fight to the death so offering mercy is pointless...

I don't mean Aemond but his allies. In the civil war it was common to change sides. Of course it's damgerous as Aemond has his dragon, so one must wait for the right moment. 

Rhaenyra has also good ideas, like blockade and rumors. Instead, Aemond trust only on force. 

Both have made decisions that can have dangerous results (making bastards dragonrides and alliance with pirates), but the risk was necessary in the circumstances. Now it's essential that Aemond knows that Rhaenyra has got dragons but she doesn't know about pirates.

In the end, I don't care who wins. Cole was right: they are all dead.      

Edited August 8 by Roseanna
adding a letter

[paigow]

Apparently, Aegon broke every bone in his body except those in his feet... Otherwise, Larys would not commit 24/7 solely out of loyalty to the Realm....

[Roseanna]

I suppose that Hugh's lack of manners is meant to funny (he doens't know the court manners) and even brave (see how he dares to be himself even in the presence of the Queen).  

I see Hugh as a grobian. Obviously he can't know the manners of court but he doesn't even try to learn them by looking at the others' example but he is consciously, insolently crude. That's hardly wise if he wants to become a knight.

Well, perhaps he thinks that "hell, we will die anyway, so let's take all the fun today".   

[Chicago Redshirt]

I think you may be confusing Ulf and Hugh. Ulf is the one who is being rude and getting Jace upset. Hugh so far has been generally respectful. 

[Roseanna]

In the book I just read the cardinal virtues were defined thus:

- Wisdom: the ability to make good decisions
- Self-control: bringing emotions and cravings under the control of reason
- Justice: for everyone what belongs to him
- Courage: the power to do the right thing even under pressure
- Big-souledness: the desire for greater and better - also for others
- Humility: freedom from self-centeredness

Although I don't believe these cardinal virtues help to win the power struggle in Westeros, I think it's still interesting to evaluate characters based on them.  

It's evident that Aegon and Aemond lack all those virtues. 

How about others? 

[proserpina65]

10 hours ago, Roseanna said:

In the end, I don't care who wins. Cole was right: they are all dead.      

And very few of them are pleasant.  I mean, I love me some villainous characters, but when almost everyone is crap, it's a little hard to care whether or not they survive.

[paigow]

Larys heard that the Bank of Braavos was financing a new medical product called a catheter 

[Roseanna]

Does Mysaria really believe that Rhaenyra will bring justice to smallfolk or is she just gaining her favor by flattery?

Alicent said tto Heleana that while the blockade wasn't the their fault, they were been responsible for not breaking it. The king must be worth his title "The protector of the realm".

Aemond is a fool when he doesn't even pretend to be "for the people", unlike Rhaenyra. 

[paigow]

The best qualities of the future Baratheon brothers [ Robert; Stannis; Renly ]  merged together into a single person would be a good monarch.

[Affogato]

4 hours ago, Roseanna said:

In the book I just read the cardinal virtues were defined thus:

- Wisdom: the ability to make good decisions
- Self-control: bringing emotions and cravings under the control of reason
- Justice: for everyone what belongs to him
- Courage: the power to do the right thing even under pressure
- Big-souledness: the desire for greater and better - also for others
- Humility: freedom from self-centeredness

Although I don't believe these cardinal virtues help to win the power struggle in Westeros, I think it's still interesting to evaluate characters based on them.  

It's evident that Aegon and Aemond lack all those virtues. 

How about others? 

Um. Wisdom requires experience, and for many doing the right thing under pressure is preceded by caving to pressure and seeing the consequences. All children are self centered and likely being born to an important family delays maturity in that regard. I could go on. In this world of Westeros not everyone thinks that small folk and slaves are part of the equation, justice does not always cast a wide net. 
 

Rhaena showed many virtues. rhaenerya has a big soul, courage and a sense of justice, but she does not have the experience to always act on them. Also she will be forced to bad things. Otto, Lerys, Viserys and even Daemon have shown some of these virtues, by their own lights, if not ours. 

Edited August 8 by Affogato

[CountryGirl]

[baldryanr]

On 8/7/2024 at 4:23 PM, proserpina65 said:

At the rate they're going, that should happen in the series' finale at the end of season four.  After much, much more talking and several more secret trips between her and Alicent.

Their desire for Rhaenyra & Alicent means she needs to take KL immediately.  Then they can have daily chats about the state of things while her Council wonders why she's spending so much time talking to their enemy instead of them.

[paigow]

8 minutes ago, baldryanr said:

 Then they can have daily chats about the state of things while her Council wonders why she's spending so much time talking to their enemy instead of them.

This could end up as Clarice / Lecter

[Roseanna]

12 hours ago, Affogato said:

Rhaena showed many virtues. rhaenerya has a big soul, courage and a sense of justice, but she does not have the experience to always act on them. 

I see Rhaenyra quite differently. Until her father died, she lacked self-control and acted on the fasis of her feelings and desires instead of reason and, feeling entitled, made stupid decisions, like staying in KL, or didn't make decisions at all but just spent time in private matters instead of making allies.

We shall see what results her decisions will have. But one thing is already made clear: it's hasn't been wise to spend so much time with Mysaria - even her Council doesn't trust her and also her son and heir is annoyed. 

Also, if one person had the possiblity to prevent the war, it was Rhaenyra who was offered quite good terms, but she put her right to succession above all else. Of course it was natural considering how she was raised (as well as similar cases in real history), but it shows that she lacks self-consciousness. She blames Alicent for all and takes no responsibility to herself.

 

[Roseanna]

8 hours ago, baldryanr said:

Their desire for Rhaenyra & Alicent means she needs to take KL immediately.  Then they can have daily chats about the state of things while her Council wonders why she's spending so much time talking to their enemy instead of them.

The discussions between Rahenyra and Alicent wouldn't be a bad idea, if they had contained something we don't already know about them. But many here have already written about Alicent things that she had only now realized herself. Unlike others, I think that realization is worth respect - how many people IRL ever admit that they have been totally wrong? But it doesn't make good drama because it constains nothing new to the audience.

The same applies to Daemon. What he realized with the help of his hallycinations about his relationship with Rharnyra and Viserys was nothing new to the audience. If the writers thought that he needed a wake-up, one hallycination would have been quite enough.

The only "soul-searching" scene that contained something new was between Cole and Alicent's brother.  

[AntFTW]

1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

Also, if one person had the possiblity to prevent the war, it was Rhaenyra

OR! *hear me out*... it was Otto.

[Affogato]

6 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I see Rhaenyra quite differently. Until her father died, she lacked self-control and acted on the fasis of her feelings and desires instead of reason and, feeling entitled, made stupid decisions, like staying in KL, or didn't make decisions at all but just spent time in private matters instead of making allies.

We shall see what results her decisions will have. But one thing is already made clear: it's hasn't been wise to spend so much time with Mysaria - even her Council doesn't trust her and also her son and heir is annoyed. 

Also, if one person had the possiblity to prevent the war, it was Rhaenyra who was offered quite good terms, but she put her right to succession above all else. Of course it was natural considering how she was raised (as well as similar cases in real history), but it shows that she lacks self-consciousness. She blames Alicent for all and takes no responsibility to herself.

 

Well, one of the show setups is—look how Rhaeneryas children turned out and look how Alicient’s children turned out.  BOth are aware of this and it is one of the purposes of their much maligned talks. 
 

listening only to men didn’t work for Alicient. Rhaenerya is listening to as many POVs as she can. 
 

part of my point is that wisdom is learned. Virtues are cultivated as you learn from experience. Rhaenerya and alicient are being shown to be in the process of learning. 
 

i should add that I really don’t think the ideas of virtues is overly relevant in this context. If it is it is shown in how people are raised and interact and the argument includes viserys/darmon and the Corliss bastards. 
 

 

Edited August 9 by Affogato

[baldryanr]

5 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Also, if one person had the possiblity to prevent the war, it was Rhaenyra who was offered quite good terms, but she put her right to succession above all else. Of course it was natural considering how she was raised (as well as similar cases in real history), but it shows that she lacks self-consciousness. She blames Alicent for all and takes no responsibility to herself.

Or Rhaenys (if you believe Rhaenyra is the true queen then the Greens had already committed treason, so execution was a valid response).

Or Viserys, who should have abdicated once he really started going downhill. 

 

[paigow]

1 hour ago, baldryanr said:

Or Rhaenys (if you believe Rhaenyra is the true queen then the Greens had already committed treason, so execution was a valid response).

She was the Obi-Wan Kenobi proxy... passing on the opportunity to kill an obviously evil Anakin- twice

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, baldryanr said:

Or Rhaenys (if you believe Rhaenyra is the true queen then the Greens had already committed treason, so execution was a valid response).

Or Viserys, who should have abdicated once he really started going downhill. 

 

Viserys probably should have abdicated. 

Edited August 9 by Affogato

[Roseanna]

9 hours ago, AntFTW said:

OR! *hear me out*... it was Otto.

I should have said Rhaennyra was the last person who had a chance to stop the war to begin without any danger to herself but she chose her right to succession was more important.

I am not blaming her for this show is based on the presupposition that people that characters can't really chose but their decisions are based on their character and position and therefore they put getting power first. 

Laenor was the only exception. 

6 hours ago, Affogato said:

Well, one of the show setups is—look how Rhaeneryas children turned out and look how Alicient’s children turned out.  BOth are aware of this and it is one of the purposes of their much maligned talks. 

I don't believe that the ability to raise children guarantees the ability to govern the realm and especilly to wage war.

[Roseanna]

20 hours ago, Affogato said:

listening only to men didn’t work for Alicient. Rhaenerya is listening to as many POVs as she can. 

That kind of a modern POV bypass that Alicent and Rhaenyra had complete different position.

Alicent's position was entirely dependent on men as a daughter, wife and mother. Another kind of woman could have got informal influence, but she lacked that kind of character. She isn't a hard and cold-blooded schemer but needed to calm her conscience and was thus easily blinded by Otto. 

Rhaenyra had an unique position as an heir that made her feel entitled. She dind't listen to anyone but did just as she pleased and whereas that kind of behavior would have led other women to ruin, she was saved by her father's blind love. She failed to prepare in any way to succession and after it she had listened mainly to Mysaria, and the result was that she was almost betrayed by her own envoy.

Now their roles have changed. Alicent wants to be "free" - as if she wasn't bound by her and her family's earlier actions. Rhaenyra feels she has no choice as her destiny was decided for her. Mysaria has made her believe that she can bring jutice to people.

Surprisingly, it's Daemon who now sees clearly that they can't govern destiny but must play their roles although whatever they do, the result will be bad.  

 

[Roseanna]

20 hours ago, baldryanr said:

Or Rhaenys (if you believe Rhaenyra is the true queen then the Greens had already committed treason, so execution was a valid response).

I don't think that Rhaenys did wrong - she gave Rhaenyra the choice to accept Aegon as king (the terns were good) or to fight for right. 

Rhaenys' attitude to Rhaenyra had been lukewarm at best. She believed that she ordered her son's murder in order to marry Daemon. She knew that her son aren't by her son and therefore wanted to make her daughter's daughter a heir.

She reminded Rhaenyra that the lords didn't earlier accept a woman as Queen, which Rhaenyra arrognatly dismissed that they had accepted Rhaenys but had made oaths to her.  

She finally accepted Rhaenyra's offer about marriages between cousins which would guarantee that in the future the king and the lord of Drightmark would be her blood relatives.

[Affogato]

3 hours ago, Roseanna said:

That kind of a modern POV bypass that Alicent and Rhaenyra had complete different position.

Alicent's position was entirely dependent on men as a daughter, wife and mother. Another kind of woman could have got informal influence, but she lacked that kind of character. She isn't a hard and cold-blooded schemer but needed to calm her conscience and was thus easily blinded by Otto. 

Rhaenyra had an unique position as an heir that made her feel entitled. She dind't listen to anyone but did just as she pleased and whereas that kind of behavior would have led other women to ruin, she was saved by her father's blind love. She failed to prepare in any way to succession and after it she had listened mainly to Mysaria, and the result was that she was almost betrayed by her own envoy.

Now their roles have changed. Alicent wants to be "free" - as if she wasn't bound by her and her family's earlier actions. Rhaenyra feels she has no choice as her destiny was decided for her. Mysaria has made her believe that she can bring jutice to people.

Surprisingly, it's Daemon who now sees clearly that they can't govern destiny but must play their roles although whatever they do, the result will be bad.  

 

Just to point out— listening to the men in her life did not work for Alicient. Rhaenerys seems to be listening to people from a wider range of stations  it is not a ‘modern point of view’ , it is an observation.   
 

Also, I believe you are incorrect.
 

Alicient is trying to fix something she feels responsible for creating. She is not completely responsible, but feels complicity.  We did see Rhaenerya reject her responsibilities, as would many teenagers in any world, and now she is trying to grow into them.  I think the show means to say that Daemon and Rhaenerya are now on the same path, but ai haven’t time to explain that right now.

 

[Roseanna]

7 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Just to point out— listening to the men in her life did not work for Alicient. Rhaenerys seems to be listening to people from a wider range of stations  it is not a ‘modern point of view’ , it is an observation.  

Do "Rhaenyrys" mean Rhaenyra or Rhaenys?

Rhaenys seems to have made her conclusions herself. She lost the election for a ruler and has wisely accepted that, unlike her ambitious husband. She gives him a wise counsel to name their true-born granddaughter as the heir, but he doesn't change her mind. She tries to to tell to Rhaenyra what the world is like but she doesn't listen.

Rhaenys also told to Alicent "why you serve men instead of ruling yourself". But she can't do it, she has no right to throne. So was Rhaenys trying to divide the Greens?  

One thing more: we have almost forgotten biology as a decisive factor in women's lives, although both Aemma and Laena died in childbirth and both happenings influenced decisively on Rhaenyra's life. Because Aemma's son didn't live, she became the heir, and because Laena died, she could marry Daemon.

Both Rhaenyra and Alicent are fertile and, most importantly they have given birth to sons. If Alicent had had only daughter(s), there would have been no struggle about succession (unless Daemon had contested it). Without her many sons Rhaenyra's positions would have been weak.