S03.E02: Better Late

[peachmangosteen]

Airs May 2nd.

[maddie965]

Sorry, wolfwoman girlfriend, but Ava and Deborah belong together. (She's not wrong about the abuse, though.)

[SoMuchTV]

I’ve always liked this show just fine, but I was surprised at how silly happy I was when Deborah killed it on the latenight show. 

Edited May 4 by SoMuchTV
Oops, it's Deborah, not Debra

[txhorns79]

6 hours ago, maddie965 said:

Sorry, wolfwoman girlfriend, but Ava and Deborah belong together. (She's not wrong about the abuse, though.)

Ava and Deborah really do have magnificent chemistry, even if the girlfriend was totally right about how toxic the relationship got. 

And Jimmy's mother is Deidre Hall?  So random, but funny.  I presume we'll see her at some point during the season then.

[aghst]

10 hours ago, maddie965 said:

Sorry, wolfwoman girlfriend, but Ava and Deborah belong together. (She's not wrong about the abuse, though.)

Obviously we want to see them together, since it's the basis for the show.

But to an outside observer, it could seem abusive, since Deborah is the boss.  Or codependent since they both seemed to be more thrilled to work together than with anyone else, despite the verbal and emotional abuse.

Ava seems more inspired to work on the Late Night show, than her actual job on another well-regarded show.  But not only that, as soon as Deborah hints at working together again, Ava jumps at it, even alienating her gf and risking their relationship.

Maybe Ava doesn't love really love the gf, it was more about hot sex, as suggested by the surprising shower scene.  She seemed moved when she thought the gf was going to propose but then assumed that was exactly the case and didn't think it was a big deal as she could just propose, using the prop ring.

Is Ava going back to work with/for Deborah like the person who ditches his/her significant other to go back to an ex who was abusive?

Ava looks at this opportunity as a way to return to this collaborative relationship but as soon as she arrives at Deborah's mansion, Deborah tells her shoes off and Ava remembers who's the boss.

[Quickbeam]

This was a gorgeous episode and a lovely tip of the hat to Joan Rivers. Beautifully done. Jean always exceeds my expectations, she’s amazing.

ETA: the Jimmy call to his mother re: “they test on animals, Ma” was hilarious. 

Edited May 3 by Quickbeam
Addition

[chaifan]

I do wish they hadn't made Deborah & Ava's earlier relationship so toxic, and the "breakup" so awful for Ava, because it really does seem like someone going back to an abusive ex.  I think WolfGirl had a valid point there.  I hope the show doesn't go back to that dynamic, and that we see Deborah treating Ava with more respect.  It seems like that is where they're heading, based on their recent interactions.   (See edit note.)

I loved Deborah taking over the talk show, and calling Ava in to help.  I also loved the inclusion of the Etsy fan - I thought Marcus was going to offer him that during their meeting, and was disappointed he didn't, so I was glad when he suggested it to Deborah later.  I like that this is where the season is going, and how they're getting the band back together.

So last episode we saw the huge warehouse full of clothes, but am I crazy thinking that the black sequin outfit Deborah wore on the late show was the same one she wore in Episode 1 to the awards ceremony???

EDITED TO ADD:  I crossed out my first paragraph after finishing a re-watch of Season 2.  See my new comment below. 

 

Edited May 11 by chaifan

[Quickbeam]

As creepy as I find super fans about anything, the guy had a point about supply and demand. If someone is a 2XL and wants a varsity jacket with your name on it…..they’ll get it one way or another. Especially if licensed merch doesn’t go to that size. I always loved that Sanrio licensed Torrid to make plus sized Hello Kitty merch. It’s just good business to meet consumer demand.

I love the WolfGirl sentence about the ring “powering the flail”. It made me laugh.

[arc]

It totally makes sense that there's a lot of bootleg Deborah Vance merch.

Aw no, a protagonist finding a ring right before a big vacation in the second episode of a comedy show's season usually isn't a good thing. =( .... Holy shit, I guessed it wasn't a real engagement ring, but it's a crummy prop from a CW show? That's really funny.

Why aren't Deborah's new writers working on finding her a story for going on Late Night? Why is it Damien? ... eh, I don't love her manufacturing an anecdote, but whatever. (BTW, I learned earlier that Carrot Top had a hugely lucrative Vegas residency in real life, so it makes sense in this world that she knows Mr Top.)

I like the sudden guest host gig. And how terribly the writers room went before Ava swooped in to save the day.

Any show that uses "Shaft in Africa (Addis)" as a musical cue has unimpeachable taste.

Oh wow, what a great trick shot with Deb's younger self in the mirror. (I mean more as a great touch than as a virtuoso trick.) And it looks like Deb's guest hosting was fantastic. (Super tangentially related, Adam Pally once did an incredible and incredibly weird turn as a guest host for the Late Late show when a blizzard shut down NYC.)

I figured Ava and Ruby would hit some serious disagreements re Deb starting from when Ava lied about how her car crash happened. But oof.

The Etsy fan (Ezekiel) was played Guy Braunum, who's also a writer on this show.

[aghst]

I don't know did Joan Rivers have that big a following with people buying merchandise?

Did Eddie Murphy at his standup peak have merchandise or Chris Rock?

Deborah really is a throwback.  Late night shows aren't as hot as they used to be, like around the time Jay Leno aced out Letterman for the Tonight gig.

But she apparently wants it more than anything else, after having a critically acclaimed stand-up special.

Yeah a LV residency is probably  more lucrative and easy because they can do the same act for years and years whereas a late night show needs to constantly create.

But the best things comics can do creatively are movies or shows where they have total creative control.  Some great movies and shows by standup comics.

 

 

[EtheltoTillie]

5 hours ago, arc said:

(BTW, I learned earlier that Carrot Top had a hugely lucrative Vegas residency in real life, so it makes sense in this world that she knows Mr Top.)

I

Yes, this was a great touch.  I saw the Carrot Top show about 15 years ago, and it was really funny!  We also saw George Wallace once.  He was mentioned in the post episode discussion.

I thought the ring was going to turn out to be something the girlfriend had from a previous relationship!

Edited May 4 by EtheltoTillie

[EtheltoTillie]

24 minutes ago, aghst said:

I don't know did Joan Rivers have that big a following with people buying merchandise?

 

I saw Joan live once, and they were not selling merch in the theater.

Joan's merch was her QVC jewelry. 

I don't mind, though.  The show may be based on Joan, but it can depart from the story.

[chaifan]

1 hour ago, aghst said:

I don't know did Joan Rivers have that big a following with people buying merchandise?

Did Eddie Murphy at his standup peak have merchandise or Chris Rock?

Pre-internet, there just wouldn't have been the way to market this stuff outside of in-person gigs.  Also, average Joe superfan didn't have the ability to make celebrity themed jackets, candles, pillows, etc., to offer for sale.  That is really quite recent.  So I don't think you can compare anyone today (fictional or real) with anyone who was hot in the 80's. 

I never got the impression this was supposed to be a "Joan Rivers" story, just that due to the age of the character Deborah was modeled after Joan to a certain extent. 

Based on what we saw in the writers' room, I can't really buy Deborah keeping those two writers for more than 24 hours, or them lasting/withstanding her criticism for more time than that.  I wish they made them slightly more competent than they appeared in that scene.

[aghst]

13 minutes ago, chaifan said:

Pre-internet, there just wouldn't have been the way to market this stuff outside of in-person gigs.  Also, average Joe superfan didn't have the ability to make celebrity themed jackets, candles, pillows, etc., to offer for sale.  That is really quite recent.  So I don't think you can compare anyone today (fictional or real) with anyone who was hot in the 80's. 

I never got the impression this was supposed to be a "Joan Rivers" story, just that due to the age of the character Deborah was modeled after Joan to a certain extent. 

Based on what we saw in the writers' room, I can't really buy Deborah keeping those two writers for more than 24 hours, or them lasting/withstanding her criticism for more time than that.  I wish they made them slightly more competent than they appeared in that scene.

Valid points.

She's a contemporary version of Joan Rivers, though I don't think hosting a late night show on a network would be a thing any more.

In fact, my impression is that Joan stopped caring about not getting the plum job by the last 10 years of her life.  Maybe that isn't the case, I'm not sure.

[sskrill]

15 hours ago, arc said:

(BTW, I learned earlier that Carrot Top had a hugely lucrative Vegas residency in real life, so it makes sense in this world that she knows Mr Top.)

People with long residencies become part of the community fabric.  LV being what it is, is very strangely a small town.  Back before my knees gave out I would do the Aids Walk every year.  Penn & Teller are long time Grand Marshalls, but lots of headliners would come and hang out with the crowd.  Scott was one of them - always very gracious with the hundreds of people who approached him.  Also, because they are normal people you run in to them all over the place.  I almost knocked Penn down once charging through Southpoint. 

But yes, even though they may not be besties they mostly all know each other.  

If anyone cares about LV low down gossip @vitalvegas and @lasvegaslocally are good follows.  

Which reminds me, rumor has it a girl recently died at Criss Angel's house under very suspicious circumstances (roofies, etc). Its been very hushhush.

[IvySpice]

On 5/2/2024 at 7:15 PM, txhorns79 said:

And Jimmy's mother is Deidre Hall?

I had to go Google the actor immediately and was disappointed to learn that Deidre Hall is not actually his mother. It would be an amazing Easter egg if she were!

[txhorns79]

10 hours ago, aghst said:

In fact, my impression is that Joan stopped caring about not getting the plum job by the last 10 years of her life.  Maybe that isn't the case, I'm not sure.

Rivers did have a late night show on Fox when it was a new broadcast network.  The ratings were not good, and she was fired after a season.  Her hosting that show was what destroyed her relationship with Johnny Carson. 

To me, it makes sense that Deborah would still care deeply about that kind of opportunity, given her history.  I don't know if she would realistically still be considered for that job, even if she was having a big moment, but Jean Smart really sells Deborah's ambition. 

 

[peachmangosteen]

9 hours ago, IvySpice said:

I had to go Google the actor immediately and was disappointed to learn that Deidre Hall is not actually his mother. It would be an amazing Easter egg if she were!

Same lol.

[chaifan]

9 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I don't know if she would realistically still be considered for that job, even if she was having a big moment, but Jean Smart really sells Deborah's ambition. 

I agree - I think it's a stretch for us to believe that spot would be offered to someone of Deborah's age and career position.  I just don't think that would happen in real life. 

I'm not sure how long this show is intended to run - whether they've said only X number of seasons or not.  I don't think Deborah as late night show host would work with the show's format.  It would totally change the tone of the show.  I could see that is where she ends up at the series finale, though. 

I like this season being about Deborah's ambition to get the late night gig.  What I'd like to see is to have that happen, but not necessarily on a permanent basis.  That she gets offered a temporary spot - maybe 3 months to a year - and if the show has a 4th season, there's a time jump with Deborah ending the gig and figuring out what to do next. 

[SnapHappy]

How is it that the ring is Wolf Girl's source of power, but Ruby never told Ava about it or has ever even worn it around her if it's critical to her origin story?  

I call shenanigans on that. 

I still love Carrot Top.  Since he's eased up on the fillers and muscles, he looks a lot better.  And I love Deb catching him in his PJ's. With a single trash bag!

I liked the cover of Steely Dan's "Dirty Work".  Really well used over the credits.  

I'm really glad this show is back.  Jean S. is a phenomenon. 

Edited May 5 by SnapHappy

[IvySpice]

2 hours ago, SnapHappy said:

How is it that the ring is Wolf Girl's source of power, but Ruby never told Ava about it or has ever even worn it around her if it's critical to her origin story?  

I can buy that she DID tell Ava, but Ava was totally self-absorbed and not paying real attention to things that are important to Ruby. We saw how much she cares about Ruby’s point of view when she kept bugging Ruby during her workout (aka a crucial part of her job as an action hero). Also when Ava couldn’t let Ruby enjoy any afterglow in the shower and kept insisting on changing the subject to what SHE (Ava) wanted to talk about. Ava is a terrible partner to Ruby. Why would Ava notice or remember the ring backstory when it has nothing to do with Ava and her needs?

This may be the reason the writers introduced Ruby in a scene where Ava is literally in her own world and blind and deaf to Ruby until Ruby literally screams to get her attention. That’s what their whole relationship is like, outside of the hot sex.

[ahpny]

On 5/4/2024 at 12:32 PM, EtheltoTillie said:

The show may be based on Joan, but it can depart from the story.

There are (and have always been) preciously few women comic hosts on late night shows so there's bound to be some commonality with Joan Rivers’ experiences. But, unlike The Marvelous Mrs. Mazel, I don’t think this show is primarily based on the story of Joan Rivers. Nevertheless, the late-night guest hosting plot point here did immediately remind me of when Joan Rivers scored the “permanent guest host” spot on the Tonight Show to fill in for the frequently-vacationing Jonny Carson. I’m not sure Jonny Carson was pleased that at least some of the Tonight Show shows Joan guest-hosted pulled in higher ratings than his. That’s where I thought this show might be going when the under-the-weather host called Deborah. That is, I half expected him to be jealous that she did better than he, but no, he was gracious and seemed truly thankful.

Edited May 5 by ahpny

[aghst]

I guess they wanted to find a way to continue the theme of Deborah having been stagnant creatively and Ava pushing her to try to be creative again.

First season was to get beyond her LV show.  She was very successful but she was on cruise control, had been for years.

Second season was to go out on the road and try new material.  In particular talk more about her life and her personal journey, with Deborah and Ava pushing each other, even as their contentious relationship led to new creative places for Deborah.

So it seems this season is the challenge of hosting a late night show, an opportunity which escaped her grasp years ago, and having another bite at it, to prevent her from falling back into complacency which she was in at the start of the series.

Maybe part of it isn't just about chasing again the one that got away but avoiding stagnancy, because she saw that her writers weren't taking her far creatively as Ava did.  Deborah knew this, when she admits that they're good joke writers -- but not much more.

 

[Clawdette]

My favorite part of the episode was Luke Macfarlane bench-pressing Jean.  They made it look easy.  Such an unexpected bit as she was filling in at the last moment. Deborah can really think on her feet and, if she could capitalize on her first effort, the audience should love her.

[geekgirl921]

On 5/5/2024 at 6:35 AM, peachmangosteen said:

Same lol.

Me too!! I was disappointed it wasn't true.

[LuvMyShows]

On 5/4/2024 at 7:07 AM, arc said:

Aw no, a protagonist finding a ring right before a big vacation in the second episode of a comedy show's season usually isn't a good thing. =( .... Holy shit, I guessed it wasn't a real engagement ring, but it's a crummy prop from a CW show? That's really funny.

On 5/5/2024 at 10:20 AM, SnapHappy said:

How is it that the ring is Wolf Girl's source of power, but Ruby never told Ava about it or has ever even worn it around her if it's critical to her origin story?  

On 5/5/2024 at 12:46 PM, IvySpice said:

I can buy that she DID tell Ava, but Ava was totally self-absorbed and not paying real attention to things that are important to Ruby.

On 5/4/2024 at 7:07 AM, arc said:

I figured Ava and Ruby would hit some serious disagreements re Deb starting from when Ava lied about how her car crash happened. But oof.

I knew when she found the ring that it wasn't an engagement ring, because if it were, why on earth would her girlfriend just leave it in a shared, very visible and accessible box that Ava would easily find? Kind of typical for Ava to not even think it through.

As to why the existence of the ring hadn't come up already, aside from what IvySpice said, there is also the lying that Ava has done. Ruby mentioned something like, "I knew you didn't read it," so apparently Ava lied and said she had read the graphic novel that the character came from, but she clearly didn't. However, it's also a fail on the part of the writers, because Ruby said she wears it when she needs to get in character, and Ava would most definitely have noticed if Ruby was wearing a ring, and then would have recognized that ring when she saw it later in the box.

On 5/2/2024 at 10:15 PM, txhorns79 said:

And Jimmy's mother is Deidre Hall?  So random, but funny.

Yes, the randomness of it is what I loved!

On 5/3/2024 at 2:19 AM, aghst said:

Ava looks at this opportunity as a way to return to this collaborative relationship but as soon as she arrives at Deborah's mansion, Deborah tells her shoes off and Ava remembers who's the boss.

I don't know why Ava is surprised and/or disappointed at this.  Deborah is literally her boss...she pays her and determines whether she keeps the job or not. They are still very good collaboratively, and are building a very solid friendship, but it's just so consistent with Ava's all-about-me-ness, that she would be disappointed at realizing that her boss is the boss!

[chaifan]

On 5/3/2024 at 10:55 PM, chaifan said:

I do wish they hadn't made Deborah & Ava's earlier relationship so toxic, and the "breakup" so awful for Ava, because it really does seem like someone going back to an abusive ex.  I think WolfGirl had a valid point there.  I hope the show doesn't go back to that dynamic, and that we see Deborah treating Ava with more respect.  It seems like that is where they're heading, based on their recent interactions.  

Yes, I'm quoting myself...

I just finished re-watching season 2, and I take back what I said in my earlier post...  there were parts of Ava & Deborah's relationship that were toxic, but it certainly wasn't as bad as the first 2 episodes of Season 3 make it out to be.  Other than the lawsuit, the last few episodes had Ava and Deborah in a good relationship. The Season 2 finale has Deborah firing Ava, but damn, in the nicest way possible.  It was all "You can do better, you've got people swarming you, wanting you, this is your moment, go get it."  And, yeah, Ava did get great offers at the end of the episode, and was in a really good place.  And Deborah dropped the lawsuit.  Yes, there was always a power imbalance, but hey, that's pretty much every job to some extent.  So now I'm really not getting her being so traumatized by it all.