S01.E02: Servants Of Two Masters

[DanaK]

Quote

2/27/2024 11:38 p.m. ET/PT

Blackthorne's arrival in Osaka stirs up a hornet's nest of rivalries. Mariko is trapped between her cause and her faith when she must translate for the barbarian in Lord Toranaga's custody. Written by Rachel Kondo & Justin Marks; Directed by Jonathan van Tulleken.

 

[mledawn]

I remember Blackthorne tripping up Alvito a bit in front of Mariko who clarifies some of the translations but overall I really like how key plot points are coming out quickly. 
 

Waiting to watch this week-to-week will be hard!

[magdalene]

Oh yes, I am in.  I was grateful not having to watch the baby die. They are not shying away from the brutality of the story but they are also not coarse and rubbing your face in it. All the characters, even Ishido are quite multi-level and not one note villains.

[aghst]

Yabushige is a great character.  I don't quite remember him from the books but liked him going down the cliff.

Then he gives up the ship and the spoils rather than fight Hiromatsu.

Then he rescues anjin.  Loyal to the nth degree, was ready to accept his fate if they killed Toranaga.

But always seems to be in good humor.

[Raja]

That ninja was no joke. Was Lord Toranaga thinking he could capture her and get her to talk or that she deserved a lingering death 

I do wonder how much Japanese beyond simple courtesies that  Blackthorne has picked up. He seemed to understand that he was the target and not Lord Toranaga. I'm not sure how much time is passing between the jail and travels.

 

[mledawn]

I remember Blackthorne using the kimono colours of the vassals of the various Lords to delineate between friend and foe. I did not particularly notice greys vs browns in wardrobe (yet?).

[DoctorAtomic]

I'm kind of over the Christian nonsense. I take Blackthorne's point; there's no guarantee the catholic translators are translating in good faith, and the first one certainly didn't. I don't know if he could have insisted Mariko (?) translate or something. I just don't find protestant v catholic particularly interesting. Though I didn't get the impression Toranaga did either beyond knowing that there's just some friction there, so maybe that was the point. Blackthorne just seems really dense to me. 

I do like the stamps. I wish I had one done for me when I was there. 

For all this Game of Thrones, the Regents on the Council aren't particularly sharp. The vassal who called him the dog was the only one to understand why Blackthorne would be valuable. The others didn't even think the Christian councilmembers would withhold their votes.

Did they say firstname lastname back then? Because no way Mariko would even say Toranaga's first name if he's -sama or even -san. Not in public like that anyway. 

I like that the vassal guy didn't even bother to wash his face. "Oh there were bandits out there! I was lucky to be sauntering around!"  

Exciting ending!

13 hours ago, Raja said:

That ninja was no joke. Was Lord Toranaga thinking he could capture her and get her to talk or that she deserved a lingering death

I don't think it was either. He said at the end basically that he switched sleeping quarters to confirm that the ninja was coming for Blackthorne. And he totally got the drop on her because he was waiting. This was on the heels of him not signing the papers to let the Black Ship depart. There was the scene after that where the head priest told the Christian regent, and he said, "let me handle this, Father". So I think Toranaga set it up to confirm what Blackthorne was saying about the Line of Demarcation and how Portugal 'claimed' Japan. That's a hugely valuable piece of intel that the others have no idea about. Also, Toranaga seems another level strategy over the rest of them. 

I did like the young guy saying, "so why don't we just divide up the world with China?" It must have been preposterous to think two tiny countries on the other side of the planet think they own you. 

 

13 hours ago, Raja said:

I do wonder how much Japanese beyond simple courtesies that  Blackthorne has picked up.

This does bother me a little because while it is hard to speak Japanese; there's no direct map like there is in english to spanish, if you shut up for 5 seconds you can pick up on more than you'd think. I suppose it may be easier if you're in Japan for a research position, for example, than terrified you could be killed at any second. Not that I'd expect him to be fluent, and he did pick up on 'thank you'. I would have probably tried to get some help from Nestor Carbonell, he of the survival on islands, than just snipping at him. I mean, Blackthorne doesn't even seem to pick up on hai, or so desu ka.

All that, I am enjoying the show though. 

Edited February 29 by DoctorAtomic

[Raja]

On 2/28/2024 at 7:19 PM, DoctorAtomic said:

I'm kind of over the Christian nonsense. I take Blackthorne's point; there's no guarantee the catholic translators are translating in good faith, and the first one certainly didn't. I don't know if he could have insisted Mariko (?) translate or something. I just don't find protestant v catholic particularly interesting. Though I didn't get the impression Toranaga did either beyond knowing that there's just some friction there, so maybe that was the point. Blackthorne just seems really dense to me

At this point none of the Japanese probably had any ideal about the struggle between the  sects of Christianity. For the audience, which does know we see that the only folks able to speak to Blackthorne besides Lady Mariko are his enemies

On 2/28/2024 at 7:19 PM, DoctorAtomic said:

For all this Game of Thrones, the Regents on the Council aren't particularly sharp.

Their primary brilliance was becoming allies of the Taiko and bring in their clans as he rose to the Regent instead of being defeated during the warring period.

 

On 2/28/2024 at 7:19 PM, DoctorAtomic said:

I don't think it was either. He said at the end basically that he switched sleeping quarters to confirm that the ninja was coming for Blackthorne. And he totally got the drop on her because he was waiting.

I meant that Lord  Toranaga wounded her and sheathed his sword and used it to block rather than finishing the ninja off. Was that an attempt to get information or her class didn't deserve to be  euthanized quickly?.

Unlike watching Richard Chamberlain as a young man when I was confused I now know some of the history and find myself substituting in what I know about the historical figures who the characters are based on

Edited March 1 by Raja

[DoctorAtomic]

4 minutes ago, Raja said:

At this point none of the Japanese probably had any ideal about the struggle between the  sects of Christianity.

I just thought Blackthorne was just harping way too much on it given his situation. Hey, try to stay alive for the next 90 seconds. They're going to get bored and kill you to just shut you up. 

Also, it does point to my observation that the rest of the council isn't so sharp. Only Toranaga had the initial curiosity and savvy to grasp that this white guy wasn't like the other white guys. You can kill him whenever. Once Blackthorne got over himself and actually talked, they learned about Spain and Portugal, and Macao. Which is also a knock on Blackthorne for not insisting he has intel, and my prior point about maybe trying to get Mariko to translate instead of the Jesuit young guy. 

11 minutes ago, Raja said:

Was that an attempt to get information or her class didn't deserve to be  euthanized quickly?

Ah. It could be beneath his honor, but he also could have been giving her enough rope to see if she'd go after Blackthorne instead of him, which she did. If he thought she was there to assassinate him, he would have done her in quick. He definitely was waiting for her. I don't think he needed her to talk because her actions confirmed his supposition. 

 

[Haleth]

On 2/28/2024 at 11:29 PM, DoctorAtomic said:

Once Blackthorne got over himself and actually talked, they learned about Spain and Portugal, and Macao. Which is also a knock on Blackthorne for not insisting he has intel, and my prior point about maybe trying to get Mariko to translate instead of the Jesuit young guy. 

But he didn’t know until Macao until he talked to the priest in the prison. 

[aghst]

1 hour ago, Haleth said:

But he didn’t know until Macao until he talked to the priest in the prison. 

But he understood the impact right away.  Probably really believed that Spain and Portugal eventually planned to conquer China and Japan so a secret base made sense.

[Raja]

50 minutes ago, aghst said:

But he understood the impact right away.  Probably really believed that Spain and Portugal eventually planned to conquer China and Japan so a secret base made sense.

I'm a bit confused on which character we are talking about I guess this will be a show due for re-watching. Did the Priest inform Blackthorne or the Japanese about what was found in the captured Spanish navigator's log that Blackthorne was translating about Macao? 

In any case the Japanese knew all about the failed Mongol invasions from history and recently they had a failed attempt to take over Korea themselves. Lord Toranaga to Pilot Blackthorne seems to be a game recognizes game relationship. To paraphrase "the what do you mean own" question.  With Christians will be inserted as the local leaders.

In any case in the time after the show the hammer is really going to be dropped on Japanese Christianity in no small part due to the European Kingdoms working with their churches

Edited March 1 by Raja

[Jack Shaftoe]

I wonder if it's an oversight to have Mariko insist that Blackthorn call her Mariko-sama, yet that Jesuit interpreter called her Lady Maria. Then again, that Jesuit guy also referred to Toranaga as simply Toranaga when Mariko talked to him, so maybe the show is more careful with the precise naming when Japanese is used.

I am enjoying it a lot so far, been a while since I watched anything with spoken Japanese and the Japanese actors are really good. That psycho who ordered the man boiled alive really shouldn't be making me chuckle so often but he does. Main complaint would be Blackthorn often behaving like a rude tourist despite clearly being smart enough to realise the kind of predicament he is. The way things are going he is going to call Toranaga "bro" any day now.

Also, I find it hard to believe that the Japanese would be quite so ignorant about the rest of the world. Even later when they closed themselves to the world, they kept track of many technological and some political developments. And at the time of the show is set in they could produce plenty firearms of their own, so they had little to fear from any invasion from Portugal or Spain anyway.

As to why Blackthorn would know Portuguese - at the time, if you want to go around exploring the world, knowing Spanish or Portuguese would be a huge advantage.

Last but not least, Toranaga's wife stole the show. :)

[aghst]

The priest in the prison where Blackthorne was.

He was the one who said they had a base in Macao, was running guns with ronin.

[Raja]

6 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Also, I find it hard to believe that the Japanese would be quite so ignorant about the rest of the world. Even later when they closed themselves to the world, they kept track of many technological and some political developments. And at the time of the show is set in they could produce plenty firearms of their own, so they had little to fear from any invasion from Portugal or Spain anyway.

Beyond spies on the Asian mainland we are left with the Priesthood and trusted Portuguese crew being the only source of information and they are not about to say that we are going to support these Christian Daimyos in a takeover.

We are still technically in the civil warring era even if the Taiko had consolidated  power and tried to take Korea as a nation. Power that is now in the hands of a ruling council who are scheming among themselves  to get Lord Toranaga out. It is not technically the Spanish Armada arriving that is the threat but a collection of Daimyos deciding to go back to the not so old ways and fight for supremacy supported by Portuguese imports.

[mledawn]

6 minutes ago, Raja said:

I'm a bit confused on which character we are talking about I guess this will be a show due for re-watching. Did the Priest inform Blackthorne or the Japanese about what was found in the captured Spanish navigator's log that Blackthorne was translating about Macao? 

In any case the Japanese knew all about the failed Mongol invasions from history and recently they had a failed attempt to take over Korea themselves. Lord Toranaga to Pilot Blackthorne seems to be a game recognizes game relationship. To paraphrase "the what do you mean own" question.  With Christians will be inserted as the local leaders.

In any case in the time after the show the hammer is really going to be dropped on Japanese Christianity in no small part due to the European Kingdoms working with their churches

Rodrigues showed Blackthorne that Rodrigues has the rutters but we haven’t been told that Alvito has told Toranaga that Rodrigues has them. 

The stolen rutters Blackthorne had aboard Erasmus told him how to reach Japan but didn’t tell him about the other Portuguese ports in Macau.

Blackthorne learned about the Black Ship and the Portuguese ports from Father Domingo in the prison.

 

[DoctorAtomic]

6 hours ago, Haleth said:

But he didn’t know until Macao until he talked to the priest in the prison.

They means the Japanese. I thought Blackthorne had the map of the catholic bases, and Macao was a big one. He didn't know about the gunrunning until later, but I was saying instead of doing what he did and trying to strategize instead, he might have done better there. I'm just saying use what you know to keep yourself alive and stay frosty. The yammering on the christian nonsense was getting to me. Once Blackthorne actually calmed down, he was able to communicate to Toranaga the larger context. Not entirely his fault, but not too. 

4 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

I wonder if it's an oversight to have Mariko insist that Blackthorn call her Mariko-sama, yet that Jesuit interpreter called her Lady Maria.

He's technically her teacher and she recognizes him as such, so he wouldn't  use -sama. Saying Lady Maria in Portuguese to me would be Mariko-san in Japanese, so I think that's fair. I think she made Blackthorne call her -sama because he's a 'barbarian' and so beneath her. Also, we all know she's hot for him with the flame of 1000 suns. 

Japanese abbreviate their pets' names and add -kun on the end. My friend started doing it to my dog when I told him and she would go bonkers for it. 

 

 

[Black Knight]

On 3/1/2024 at 2:38 PM, DoctorAtomic said:

They means the Japanese. I thought Blackthorne had the map of the catholic bases, and Macao was a big one. He didn't know about the gunrunning until later, but I was saying instead of doing what he did and trying to strategize instead, he might have done better there. I'm just saying use what you know to keep yourself alive and stay frosty. The yammering on the christian nonsense was getting to me. Once Blackthorne actually calmed down, he was able to communicate to Toranaga the larger context. Not entirely his fault, but not too. 

I think you should rewatch the two scenes with Blackthorne, Toranaga and Mariko. There really isn't any "yammering on the Christian nonsense" from Blackthorne at all. In their first scene, he briefly explains, when Toranaga asks why his country and Alvito's are enemies, that they follow different Christian religions - he doesn't even make a "Catholics aren't Christian!" comment - and confirms when Toranaga asks that both Catholics and Protestants believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ. Both the questions and Blackthorne's answers then move on from the subject of religion.

In the second scene, Blackthorne doesn't mention religion at all early on, except for letting Mariko know as a matter of courtesy that he is not Catholic, and then later on when explaining the world he mentions the Macao base is "Catholic" and still later about how Portugal and Spain want to replace the government of non-Catholic countries with Catholic rulers (which Mariko chooses to translate simply as "Christian") - points when it's entirely appropriate to mention religion. But he's very in control of what he's saying at all times.

[DoctorAtomic]

37 minutes ago, Black Knight said:

I think you should rewatch the two scenes with Blackthorne, Toranaga and Mariko. There really isn't any "yammering on the Christian nonsense" from Blackthorne at all.

I meant in general over the 2 episodes. As you can see from the end of the paragraph, "once Blackthorne calmed down", he drew the map and talked about the Line of Demarcation treaty. All before that was getting to me. 

[Constantinople]

I hope Toranaga gets a refund from his maid cleaning service.

 

Did you see the mess they made?

[tennisgurl]

I am quite intrigued, even if I still don't fully know who everyone is and who is on who's side, although its likely that no one knows for sure who's on who's side. I like the complexity so far of the characters and factions, especially when so many people are working on only partial knowledge and such big differences in culture. 

A maid/assassin made me feel like his was turning into an anime all of the sudden. Keep your eyes peeled for giant robots! 

[Raja]

19 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

A maid/assassin made me feel like his was turning into an anime all of the sudden. Keep your eyes peeled for giant robots! 

I don't remember the scene from Richard Chamberlain like I do his refusal to bathe. But it was a gender flip, I don't know about the book.

Besides James Clavell changing the names its a good thing this history wasn't handled like the Keanu Reeves did with the 47 Ronin. 

[magdalene]

On 2/27/2024 at 11:37 PM, aghst said:

But always seems to be in good humor

Escpecially when he is boiling young foreign sailors to death. He is an interesting character but he should die eventually.

[Raja]

42 minutes ago, magdalene said:

Escpecially when he is boiling young foreign sailors to death. He is an interesting character but he should die eventually.

 

His vassals and inhabitants of his fiefdom seemed horrified by Lord Yabushige's appetites.  And then we get to the courtesan who immediately decided that providing live action sex show with a boy would engage him more than just herself

[ofmd]

On 3/1/2024 at 7:23 PM, mledawn said:

Blackthorne learned about the Black Ship and the Portuguese ports from Father Domingo in the prison.

 

I thought he learned about the Portugese ports, and specifically about Macao, from a friend. From the priest he learned that the Regents had no clue about it, so he now was aware he had valuable intel.

As for Blackthorne not bringing it up right away, I think ge'd gotten wiser and didn't speak out of turn. Or maybe that's what I'd like to think, I'm not all that impressed with him so far...

 

Edited March 17 by ofmd

[ofmd]

On 2/29/2024 at 4:19 AM, DoctorAtomic said:

I'm kind of over the Christian nonsense. I take Blackthorne's point; there's no guarantee the catholic translators are translating in good faith, and the first one certainly didn't. I don't know if he could have insisted Mariko (?) translate or something. (...) Blackthorne just seems really dense to me. 

 

I believe second priest dude (I'm still learning the names) only translated correctly because he knew Mariko could have corrected him, which is exactly why she was present. And Blackthorne didn't know that yet, she had not spoken.

As for her letting the priest call her Lady Maria, I assumed it was because she respected him and the church?

ETA: Apologies if this got already cleared up in later episode threads, I'm playing catch-up with the show.

Edited March 17 by ofmd

[DoctorAtomic]

I thought that Toranaga said to the room that Mariko was there to practice her Portuguese. Like I said, I take Blackthorne's point because of the first priest, but I think my point was that he needed to slow his roll and pay attention more. 

[Raja]

1 minute ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I thought that Toranaga said to the room that Mariko was there to practice her Portuguese. Like I said, I take Blackthorne's point because of the first priest, but I think my point was that he needed to slow his roll and pay attention more. 

I think we are to assume that the rest of the room knew that practice for Lady Mariko wasn't the real reason, it was just more polite than saying I don't trust you priest. Just as the Father knew that if Lady Mariko reported that he shaded the truth it could hurt the Church's influence with the Regents if not endanger his life.

[DoctorAtomic]

Yes, my point though was that given that Blackthorne had legit beef with the first priest, had he slowed down a second, he could have told the second priest he wanted her to translate for him instead, and then tell her why. She could have told that to Toranaga, who would have agree with him. I thought the second priest had said to Blackthorne that Mariko was there because she spoke the language, but he was too busy yelling at the priest. 

I think my original post was because Blackthorne was just yammering on when he could have been paying more attention to what was going on. Neither me nor Toranaga really cared about the christian nonsense at the time. 

Or just tell Toranaga who would have asked either of them to translate to verify what he was saying.