S04.E02: Are You There God? It's me, Dean Winchester

[DittyDotDot]

The ghosts of people hunters failed to save are returning to kill them.

 

I'm rather fond of this episode. If for nothing else, it's nice to see Hendrickson, Ronald with the laser eyes and Nicki Aycox (I hesitate to call her Meg, because even though it was the real Meg, it wasn't really Meg) back again. This is the season where I started to like Sera Gamble's episodes, in-fact, I think she did some of her best throughout this season. No longer do I feel like I'm being preached at, but instead it's more of a discussion with different points of view and no one is necessarily right or wrong. Plus, some of the dialogue in this episode is really well constructed.

 

I'm generally a sucker for a ghost story and I like how they twisted it around to make it work within the construct of the overall season. I like Bobby in this episode; I've always felt he was best as hunter's helper rather than foster daddy and I love that Bobby built a panic room--even though I got tired of them using it a s a go-to problem solving chamber later. I am somewhat amused by the fact that a couple of little girls managed to waylay super-hunter Bobby though, but in a good way, it seems to balance things out a bit. And the scene at the end between Cass and Dean is pure gold. I love how Dean seems to be trying to pick a fight with Cass and I love how Cass is like a parent with Dean--trying not to rise to the bait, but also wanting Dean to be respectful. I miss this Cass.

 

Mostly though, I really like the argument that Sam and Dean have throughout the episode. I find Sam's need to have faith as compelling as Dean's need not to. I love how Sam glams onto the idea of the angels and them saving Dean from Hell must be a good thing. And I love how Dean is skeptical of the whole thing--not only about the angels, but being chosen for something good. I'm generally with Dean on these things; being chosen is never a good thing. In some ways I wish the show had explored their different points of view on faith more. They were so wishy-washy with Sam's motivations in S4 when I feel the biggest and most obvious thing was staring them in the face the whole time. Also, Dean finding faith in something could have been more compelling than the torture angst storyline that they wimped out on in the end. Eh, could of, should of, would of...right?

 

Anyway, overall I find this episode to be one of S4's best. I'm not sure what that really says though since I find S4 to have some highs, but also a whole lotta lows.

Edited September 7, 2014 by DittyDotDot

[supposebly]

It's one of the episodes of S4 that I still enjoy although I find it a bit uneven and I'm not sure about the choices of witnesses.

I'm not sure why, maybe it's the little girls that we've never heard about before or after, maybe it's the fact that Meg was wailing on Dean so long when it would have made more sense if she had wailed on Sam instead since he interacted with Demon!Meg much more without knowing that she was a demon.

 

The choice to include Ronald didn't make much sense to me since his death had nothing to do with demons while Henricksen's and Meg's did. I guess in the end it all comes down to actor availability. I'm also not sure what exactly happened there with the kids. They were eaten by what?

 

I adore the faith discussions, much more now because I've recently rewatched S2's Houses of the Holy and it ties in nicely.

 

ETA: How the hell do you spell Henricksen, Hendrickson? I find myself changing it almost every time I type it.

Edited September 7, 2014 by supposebly

[DittyDotDot]

ETA: How the hell do you spell Henricksen, Hendrickson? I find myself changing it almost every time I type it.

 

Uh...um...I really don't think I know the answer to that. Wait...I'll check on my closed captioning real quick. Apparently it's Henriksen (like I'm gonna remember that).

 

I agree with you about the little girls, made little sense to me they included them since we didn't know anything about them, but then again the only case they had worked with Bobby before then where they failed to save someone was The Magnificent Seven, but we didn't know those meatsuits either. Because I like other parts of this episode I decided that Lilith chose those to be the witnesses because she was trying to pick people that would probably mean something to Sam and Dean. How she even knew about them in the first place, you might be asking, I dunno...maybe she pulled out a talking board and did it Bella-style.

 

See show, I can ignore the stupid if not everything is stupid.

[Demented Daisy]

I always remember because of Lance Henricksen.  Not that he has anything to do with the show, but my brain works in strange ways.

[Hanahope]

I just assumed the little girls were something that happened to Bobby before he began working with Dean and Sam.  I loved his panic room, almost surprised more hunters didn't have one.

[Diane]

Re watching, love the intro of the panic room, I also miss this badass Cas.  Dang it Sam you forgot the pie.

[bettername2come]

"I think He wants you to strap on your party hat." I like Dean's struggle with God caring about him. I like the consistency in the characters when it comes to God. Dean needs humanity to be on their own if they have to fight their own battles and Sam needs to believe in a greater good, especially with evil targeting him for some unknown plan. Early Castiel was so interesting. So frightening and yet not unreasonable. 

Henriksen! Always good to see you. Nicki Aycox looks so pretty with the longer, darker hair. She puts in a good performance, although I agree that her going after Sam would make more sense. 

Bobby, you are awesome. Your panic room is awesome. "A sign of what?" I love it when they talk at the same time. "If you're gonna shoot, shoot. Don't talk." Good advice. 

[Iju]

it was okay but felt a bit filler to me.

also dean refusing to believe in God was just stupid from the get go, i hate that reoccurring part in the plot. besides the fact that demons are literally fallen angels, they use latin chants that use Jesus and the name of God and use HOLY WATER for pete's sake. if there is evil in this world it has to be good. it's just logic.

but then again, like the Bible, like the pharoah in the old testament, he saw many signs of God and refused to believe. i believe dean is a representation of how hardened the human heart can be even when hardcore evidence is literally in front of their eyes. like sam said, it's less about faith this time, now it's about facts.

Edited March 14, 2018 by Iju

[catrox14]

18 minutes ago, Iju said:

also dean refusing to believe in God was just stupid from the get go, i hate that reoccurring part in the plot.

Why is it stupid? Dean is an atheist. He made it clear that he believed in what he can see and not in an all knowing God. I personally LOVED that Dean didn't believe in God. That was much more interesting to me than anything else this show has ever done.

20 minutes ago, Iju said:

but then again, like the Bible, like the pharoah in the old testament, he saw many signs of God and refused to believe. i believe dean is a representation of how hardened the human heart can be even when hardcore evidence is literally in front of their eyes.

ETA: There are millions of people on this planet who don't believe in God or an omnipotent being nor in the Flying Spaghetti Monster. It doesn't mean they have hardened hearts. Nor does it mean they are not good people who do good things. Dean is a good person who saved human beings. That doesn't sound like a hardened heart to me.

Edited March 14, 2018 by catrox14

[DeeDee79]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Why is it stupid? Dean is an atheist. He made it clear that he believed in what he can see and not in an all knowing God. I personally LOVED that Dean didn't believe in God. That was much more interesting to me than anything else this show has ever done.

ETA: There are millions of people on this planet who don't believe in God or an omnipotent being nor in the Flying Spaghetti Monster. It doesn't mean they have hardened hearts. Nor does it mean they are not good people who do good things. Dean is a good person who saved human beings. That doesn't sound like a hardened heart to me.

Well said! 

[Iju]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Why is it stupid? Dean is an atheist. He made it clear that he believed in what he can see and not in an all knowing God. I personally LOVED that Dean didn't believe in God. That was much more interesting to me than anything else this show has ever done.

ETA: There are millions of people on this planet who don't believe in God or an omnipotent being nor in the Flying Spaghetti Monster. It doesn't mean they have hardened hearts. Nor does it mean they are not good people who do good things. Dean is a good person who saved human beings. That doesn't sound like a hardened heart to me.

if there are demons there have to be angels, therefore meaning there has to be a God and a devil. it's not that hard. as i said before they have used holy chants and holy water for demons, why is it such a shocker for dean to see that God exists? no-one is asking dean to love God anymore than he has to love The Devil, just admit it and move on.

[gonzosgirrl]

15 minutes ago, Iju said:

if there are demons there have to be angels, therefore meaning there has to be a God and a devil. it's not that hard. as i said before they have used holy chants and holy water for demons, why is it such a shocker for dean to see that God exists? no-one is asking dean to love God anymore than he has to love The Devil, just admit it and move on.

Wait a couple seasons and see how faith in God works out for folks in SPN. Dean was willing to believe as early as Houses of the Holy, but when life (and death) beats the shit out of you enough, not believing is just as valid a POV as any. And Dean's belief has always been in himself and Sam, even though that also gets beaten out of him now and then - he always comes back to it.

And demons are fallen angels, since when? In SPN at least, demons are twisted human souls, not angels.

Edited March 14, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, Iju said:

if there are demons there have to be angels, therefore meaning there has to be a God and a devil. it's not that hard. as i said before they have used holy chants and holy water for demons, why is it such a shocker for dean to see that God exists? no-one is asking dean to love God anymore than he has to love The Devil, just admit it and move on.

Why? Because demons Dean can see..and Dean says he believes in what he can see.

What does this second comment mean? That if Dean doesn't believe in God then he must believe in the devil and love the devil?

Where is it written that Dean should just accept something he hasn't been shown yet? He's a skeptic. He's not evil

[DeeDee79]

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Where is it written that Dean should just accept something he hasn't been shown yet? He's a skeptic. He's not evil

Exactly. Also, it's not just God that he doesn't believe in. When Castiel mentions Lucifer Dean is skeptical of his existence also. Not too different from Fox Mulder actually. He had no belief in God or the Devil in the early seasons; only what he could see.

I just have to add that the reappearance of both Henriksen and Ronald annoys me when I think of how awesome they could have been as reoccurring characters!

Edited March 14, 2018 by DeeDee79

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I just have to add that the reappearance of both Henriksen and Ronald annoys me when I think of how awesome they could have been as reoccurring characters!

I LOVED them both. I lowkey shipped Dean and Victor. LOL

[DeeDee79]

Just now, catrox14 said:

I LOVED them both. I lowkey shipped Dean and Victor. LOL

You're not the only one! Tons of chemistry!

[Iju]

52 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Wait a couple seasons and see how faith in God works out for folks in SPN. Dean was willing to believe as early as Houses of the Holy, but when life (and death) beats the shit out of you enough, not believing is just as valid a POV as any. And Dean's belief has always been in himself and Sam, even though that also gets beaten out of him now and then - he always comes back to it.

And demons are fallen angels, since when? In SPN at least, demons are twisted human souls, not angels.

 

read my post again. i never said i didn't understand his side of the story. it's extremely obvious that God is real which is why sam simply shrugged at the evidence, but that's not so with dean. that means a lot for his character. he truly believes that there's nothing but evil in this world which shows just how broken and hurt he really is. and from that brokenness, from that pain, is what makes dean stubborn and blind, even in the face of truth.

yes in SPN demons are twisted human souls, but i'm sure that with their lifetime knowledge of so much religion sam and dean could come across that. besides for all we know sam and dean could have just went with the Bible on the origin of angels until ruby told them the truth.

45 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Why? Because demons Dean can see..and Dean says he believes in what he can see.

What does this second comment mean? That if Dean doesn't believe in God then he must believe in the devil and love the devil?

Where is it written that Dean should just accept something he hasn't been shown yet? He's a skeptic. He's not evil

again that's what makes dean stubborn. as soft as sam is, he's more on the logical side than dean. sam has never seen angels either but it's just logical to assume that if there are demons, there are angels. 

the second comment was directed at what dean is struggling with. if God is real, why is there so much evil? if God is real, why did He let his family die (and yes i am including sam)? well no-one knows that. no-one is asking dean to understand God, to even care about God. just admit He exists because of the clear evidence and move on with your life. he doesn't have to love God like Christians, anymore than if he believed in The Devil, he'd have to spend some cuddle time with him as well.

i just...never understood that constant plotline. before Faith, i assumed they both believed in angels and God because they believed in everything else they had come across. now i know about dean's "I believe what I see" but look at him now. he saw an angel that proved he was with undenial proof and still found a way out. he still found a way to say that none of it was real. so this is more on dean and himself and his feelings than trying to shock the audience that angels and God exists. if they just focused on dean instead of the obvious then i wouldn't have such a problem with this reoccurring plot.

Edited March 14, 2018 by Iju

[DittyDotDot]

I don't really think of Dean as an atheist, but more a realist. I think he has faith in many things and believes there is something bigger than him out there, he just doesn't put his faith in those things that haven't proven to deserve his faith. 

14 hours ago, Iju said:

also dean refusing to believe in God was just stupid from the get go, i hate that reoccurring part in the plot. besides the fact that demons are literally fallen angels, they use latin chants that use Jesus and the name of God and use HOLY WATER for pete's sake. if there is evil in this world it has to be good. it's just logic.

 

While I agree there is a certain balance to the universe and if there is evil there should be good too, I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that angels are good. This is Supernatural where the "lore" isn't always the truth and, generally, the supernatural is bad.  As I've said many times before, logic and reason really have nothing to do with this show. ;)

13 hours ago, Iju said:

again that's what makes dean stubborn. as soft as sam is, he's more on the logical side than dean. sam has never seen angels either but it's just logical to assume that if there are demons, there are angels. 

Well, I'd say Sam needs to believe there is a God and something bigger than him; Dean doesn't. I don't think it has anything to do with logic on Sam's part, myself.

Edited March 14, 2018 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

17 hours ago, Iju said:

the second comment was directed at what dean is struggling with. if God is real, why is there so much evil? if God is real, why did He let his family die (and yes i am including sam)? well no-one knows that. no-one is asking dean to understand God, to even care about God. just admit He exists because of the clear evidence and move on with your life. he doesn't have to love God like Christians, anymore than if he believed in The Devil, he'd have to spend some cuddle time with him as well.

Dean answered that question. He stated his case that he saw it as random bad things that happened to good people and he could deal with that. His entire position was that if God existed why was he letting folks suffer. To him, God wouldn't allow that kind of suffering, so since it happened, then God doesn't exist and isn't helping.

It's a philosophical argument and Dean has a reasonable answer to me. Why does it matter if Dean doesn't believe in God in this situation?  Dean's atheism didn't change what happened with Azazel, so I'm not sure why it would have changed anything SL wise.  Thus far it hasn't changed anything story wise.

It's a philosophical and religious discussion that served the episode and serves the show.  This show was never meant to support any particular religious viewpoint. It sounds like you think Dean should just ignore his own belief, to what, appease Sam? Why would he do that? Sam's beliefs have nothing to do with Dean's beliefs, so i don't really see why he's being brought into this when it's Dean's opinions at hand.

Even if Dean had said "Yes, Sam, you are so right. I am such a fool. I should have listened to you and believed as you" it wouldn't have changed anything. It didn't change that Dean sold his soul. Lucifer would still be a threat to rise per Castiel's warning at the end of the episode.

So I don't see how it's a storyline problem at all.  Sounds more like you just don't like that Dean didn't take Sam's word for things here.

Edited March 14, 2018 by catrox14

[Iju]

3 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I don't really think of Dean as an atheist, but more a realist. I think he has faith in many things and believes there is something bigger than him out there, he just doesn't put his faith in those things that haven't proven to deserve his faith. 

While I agree there is a certain balance to the universe and if there is evil there should be good too, I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that angels are good. This is Supernatural where the "lore" isn't always the truth and, generally, the supernatural is bad.  As I've said many times before, logic and reason really have nothing to do with this show. ;)

Well, I'd say Sam needs to believe there is a God and something bigger than him; Dean doesn't. I don't think it has anything to do with logic on Sam's part, myself.

i mean it wouldn't make sense for dean to be an atheist, because there's proof God and all that exists. he's more than allowed to be pissed off at God, no-one is arguing that.

and as for the last comment, that's exactly what i'm talking about. dean doesn't want this "God" because he has that same idea that many have, if God exists then he must be and do A B and C. if he hasn't, he's not real. he has the same fairly tale view of a God who always saves him, angels who are by his side, everything keeps him safe. in that way that is dean all over. he's still desperate. in a way he wants to believe. but he doesn't want to get hurt. he's tired of people (and beings) hurting, betraying and even killing his family. and if he believes in God that hurts him even more on why he wasn't helped, not in the least.

but this isn't about the evidence of God. because if it was the "I see what I believe" dean would just accept it firsthand. but he doesn't. that's why i said he represents what so many humans in this world choose to do and believe, even in the face of truth. 

25 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Dean answered that question. He stated his case that he saw it as random bad things that happened to good people and he could deal with that. His entire position was that if God existed why was he letting folks suffer. To him, God wouldn't allow that kind of suffering, so since it happened, then God doesn't exist and isn't helping.

It's a philosophical argument and Dean has a reasonable answer to me. Why does it matter if Dean doesn't believe in God in this situation?  Dean's atheism didn't change what happened with Azazel, so I'm not sure why it would have changed anything SL wise.  Thus far it hasn't changed anything story wise. Lucifer rose regardless of Dean believing in God. 

It's a philosophical and religious discussion that served the episode and serves the show.  This show was never meant to support any particular religious viewpoint. It sounds like you think Dean should just ignore his own belief, to what, appease Sam? Why would he do that? Sam's beliefs have nothing to do with Dean's beliefs, so i don't really see why he's being brought into this when it's Dean's opinions at hand.

Even if Dean had said "Yes, Sam, you are so right. I am such a fool. I should have listened to you and believed as you" it wouldn't have changed anything. It didn't change that Dean sold his soul to save Sam, it didn't change that Lucifer rose.

So I don't see how it's a storyline problem at all.  Sounds more like you just don't like that Dean didn't take Sam's word for things here.

i....don't think you need to explain dean's reasons and his side of the table. if you look at my previous comments you would see that i understand completely. but it's as sam said. it's not about feelings. it's not about faith. it's about facts.

what? what does this have to do about sam? i never said that dean has to follow sam just because. i only brought up sam because he's more on the logical side and dean is more emotional, which is why he's struggling and sam's not. i never even implied that if sam believed then automatically dean should as well. that's not where i'm going at all. they're different people with different beliefs and that a good thing.

i said before that the plot just seems to be made for the audience than dean. it must have been obvious to anyone that angels existed no matter what anyone thought. i think what everyone is missing is that dean is still denying God and co exists even with obvious proof. all i said was

a it's ridiculous that with all that the winchesters have been with, believing in God and all is just not possible

b however, it's completely understandable on why dean doesn't want to believe because God hasn't done squat in his life and he sees what he believes

c there is now proof for his eyes as he said before but he's still unbudged. in my own interpretation dean represents the hardened heart and blindness of humanity, that even with legit proof he's just so hurt so badly. it's frustrating but understandable for me at the same time. i would like it if the plotline focused on that instead of trying to convince the audience what they probably already assumed long ago. that's all.

[gonzosgirrl]

I can't remember what Dean said in this episode that lead to the debate about his belief in whether or not God exists. I surely don't remember him saying he doesn't (like he said that angels don't exist), but I wouldn't argue the point because I honestly don't remember. What I do know is that Dean doesn't believe in a loving, benevolent God, and, spoiler alert, he's never going to. The whole question is going to be moot shortly anyway. LOL.

[DeeDee79]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I can't remember what Dean said in this episode that lead to the debate about his belief in whether or not God exists. I surely don't remember him saying he doesn't (like he said that angels don't exist), but I wouldn't argue the point because I honestly don't remember. What I do know is that Dean doesn't believe in a loving, benevolent God, and, spoiler alert, he's never going to. The whole question is going to be moot shortly anyway. LOL.

Here you go! As per Superwiki:

DEAN
See, this is why I can't get behind God.

SAM
What are you talking about?

DEAN
If he doesn't exist, fine. Bad crap happens to good people. That's how it is. There's no rhyme or reason -- just random, horrible, evil -- I get it, okay. I can roll with that. But if he is out there, what's wrong with him? Where the hell is he while all these decent people are getting torn to shreds? How does he live with himself? You know, why doesn't he help?
 

[Iju]

3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I can't remember what Dean said in this episode that lead to the debate about his belief in whether or not God exists. I surely don't remember him saying he doesn't (like he said that angels don't exist), but I wouldn't argue the point because I honestly don't remember. What I do know is that Dean doesn't believe in a loving, benevolent God, and, spoiler alert, he's never going to. The whole question is going to be moot shortly anyway. LOL.

well it could very well be moot in the end, but those are my opinions of now. i mean i can't have an opinion of the future can i? lol

as for God being loving and benevolent and all, that's up for debate for sure. as i said before he doesn't have to love God, it's better to have his problem with God's existence than not believing in Him when they're clear evidence he does. i mean that would be kinda half awesome, half funny right? sam and dean contact God and sam is talking to Him as regular but dean is super toxic and sarcastic to Him. he knows He exists, but that doesn't mean he has to get along with Him. i can imagine some pretty funny oneliners he can say if this scenario was true.

[catrox14]

I love that Dean and Sam don't see eye to eye on the God matter. It's great storytelling and excellent writing IMO for them to have such disparate beliefs or lack there of.

[DeeDee79]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I love that Dean and Sam don't see eye to eye on the God matter. It's great storytelling and excellent writing IMO for them to have such disparate beliefs or lack there of.

I agree. I also love the continuity of their differing viewpoints as first seen in Houses of the Holy.

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, Iju said:

well it could very well be moot in the end, but those are my opinions of now. i mean i can't have an opinion of the future can i? lol

as for God being loving and benevolent and all, that's up for debate for sure. as i said before he doesn't have to love God, it's better to have his problem with God's existence than not believing in Him when they're clear evidence he does. i mean that would be kinda half awesome, half funny right? sam and dean contact God and sam is talking to Him as regular but dean is super toxic and sarcastic to Him. he knows He exists, but that doesn't mean he has to get along with Him. i can imagine some pretty funny oneliners he can say if this scenario was true.

But if you read the transcript above, Dean doesn't deny his existence.

[DittyDotDot]

8 hours ago, Iju said:

and as for the last comment, that's exactly what i'm talking about. dean doesn't want this "God" because he has that same idea that many have, if God exists then he must be and do A B and C. if he hasn't, he's not real. he has the same fairly tale view of a God who always saves him, angels who are by his side, everything keeps him safe.

IMO, it's really just as simple as Dean believes in what he can see. He didn't believe in angels until one showed himself to Dean. Now he believes in angels. Dean will only believe there is a God, IMO, if and/or when God reveals himself to Dean. Having faith in that God is different than believing he exists. 

[Iju]

3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

But if you read the transcript above, Dean doesn't deny his existence.

i said he's more like struggling, imo.

53 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

IMO, it's really just as simple as Dean believes in what he can see. He didn't believe in angels until one showed himself to Dean. Now he believes in angels. Dean will only believe there is a God, IMO, if and/or when God reveals himself to Dean. Having faith in that God is different than believing he exists. 

he didn't immediately believe in angels as soon as he saw castiel though, he still said that he could be a demon in this episode.

it's just weird to me. when castiel said that Lucifer was real too, he was shook. like um dean where do you think all these demons come from lol. but maybe he really does think they act on their own and have no leader. maybe he's just the type of person who doesn't see the full picture and doesn't really care to, he just wants to deal with what's in front of him (literally and figuratively). it's a frustrating part of him, but i get it all the same.

Edited March 15, 2018 by Iju

[DittyDotDot]

7 hours ago, Iju said:

it's just weird to me. when castiel said that Lucifer was real too, he was shook. like um dean where do you think all these demons come from lol. but maybe he really does think they act on their own and have no leader.

According to the demon Dean was trapped with in Sin City, demons do act on their own and did not have a leader until Yellow Eyes brought them together and gave them a common purpose. After he died, there was chaos among the demons until Lilith stepped up and brought them back together again. Lucifer's been off the board for eons at this point; he's been locked in a cage where no one can get to him.

Like I said, IMO, Dean believes in what he sees. Lucifer is no more real to him at this point than God is because he's never seen them. He's not saying there isn't a possibility they do exist, but until Dean meets either of them, they are an idea, not a reality to him. 

I think this season will be interesting for you to watch. I think you might find both Heaven and Hell are not exactly what you think they are.

Edited March 15, 2018 by DittyDotDot

[DittyDotDot]

7 hours ago, Iju said:

he didn't immediately believe in angels as soon as he saw castiel though, he still said that he could be a demon in this episode.

Of course he didn't believe Castiel immediately, that would've been foolish of Dean, IMO. No one has seen an angel in over 200 years, I'd have been skeptical too.

[Pondlass1]

28 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think this season will be interesting for you to watch. I think you might find both Heaven and Hell are not exactly what you think they are.

Please stay in touch @Iju as you move through the seasons.  I'll be interested to hear what you think.  All is not as it seems. (It must be difficult for you to visit this board and not be spoiled).

[catrox14]

19 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Of course he didn't believe Castiel immediately, that would've been foolish of Dean, IMO. No one has seen an angel in over 200 years, I'd have been skeptical too.

Make that 2000 years which makes Dean even more skeptical.

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Make that 2000 years which makes Dean even more skeptical.

Oops! I meant 2000 years. Stupid fingers not hitting the keys hard enough.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Oops! I meant 2000 years. Stupid fingers not hitting the keys hard enough.

I figured it was a typo, it just gave me a chance to say that Dean had even more reason to be skeptical :)

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

Of course he didn't believe Castiel immediately, that would've been foolish of Dean, IMO. No one has seen an angel in over 2000 years, I'd have been skeptical too.

Agreed. And why would Dean instantly believe an angel had pulled him out of Hell on God's say-so? I'd be more inclined to believe it was someone/something nefarious, because why would that same God have let me go and be tortured to begin with? For me, one of the saddest exchanges in the entire series is between Castiel and Dean in that barn:

Cas: Good things do happen, Dean.

Dean: Not in my experience.

That right there is enough to explain and justify Dean's skepticism.

[catrox14]

28 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Cas: Good things do happen, Dean.

Dean: Not in my experience.

That right there is enough to explain and justify Dean's skepticism.

Yup. I think that line is so often overlooked as to why Dean is the way he is. His entire life has been supernatural entities that he can see and fight. He doesn't deal with what he can't see not because he refuses or has a "hardened heart". It's because he's seen and experienced enough to warrant his justifiable and IMO realistic. IMO, that Dean doesn't have a hardened heart is why he sees the way he does. It's his profoundly deep and caring soul IMO that gives him that healthy skepticism.

[Iju]

5 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

According to the demon Dean was trapped with in Sin City, demons do act on their own and did not have a leader until Yellow Eyes brought them together and gave them a common purpose. After he died, there was chaos among the demons until Lilith stepped up and brought them back together again. Lucifer's been off the board for eons at this point; he's been locked in a cage where no one can get to him.

ohhhh okay, thanks for that. now it makes more sense!

5 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Of course he didn't believe Castiel immediately, that would've been foolish of Dean, IMO. No one has seen an angel in over 200 years, I'd have been skeptical too.

yeah but you said "now he believes in angels" as if he did immediately, that's all.

5 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

Please stay in touch @Iju as you move through the seasons.  I'll be interested to hear what you think.  All is not as it seems. (It must be difficult for you to visit this board and not be spoiled).

of course i will keep watching, i love SPN's take on folklore and such. i've been having so much fun these past two months^^

[Zipper]

One of the things I like about this show is the framing of angels. Castiel has said or suggested, several times now, that he's working on God's orders. Dean, while in transition to belief in angels, already thinks they are dicks. This immediate POV that angels are not all good, fluffy, saviors and are instead warriors and soldiers with, in Dean's view, questionable direction (meaning if no God, then what?) helps set up some things later. The idea that working in the name of God or on behalf of God renders something "good" is and always has been BS imo, because people twist the words to defend stupidity, hatred, oppression, war, etc. I didn't remember how clearly this notion was set up this early, and I'm really happy to know that this dynamic existed from the beginning. 

Spoiler

That angels, individually and somewhat collectively, are later shown to be warped and power-hungry on their own wouldn't work as well without this setup. And their response to being leaderless in the absence of a present God... well, dicks.

I do love this version of Cas. And I so appreciate that the brothers come at the question of God and his potential benevolence from two totally separate corners. As to whether Dean is an atheist or skeptic at this point in time, I don't know. But his "not in my experience" line should certainly inform how we view his belief system, and I'm always a fan of healthy doubt. In fact, Sam's character could use a little more healthy doubt w/r/t Ruby at this juncture, and iirc, throughout S4. 

Posters above have hit my favorite lines, so no repeating. Also I totally third (or fourth) the idea that having Henriksen and Ronald back just mad me miss them more, mostly for the squandering of future potential. Particularly Henriksen.

[DeeDee79]

4 hours ago, Zipper said:

Posters above have hit my favorite lines, so no repeating. Also I totally third (or fourth) the idea that having Henriksen and Ronald back just mad me miss them more, mostly for the squandering of future potential. Particularly Henriksen.

This is part of what made me love this ep so much. The only thing that didn't make sense to me was the long, drawn out scene of Dean and Meg where she blamed him for all of her problems. The majority of her history was with Sam so I didn't get why Dean was the one the was her target while her Sam confrontation lasted all of 5 seconds. It would have been more believable if the hallway scene had been between Dean and Ronald instead IMO.

[The Companion]

This was such a great episode. Beyond bringing back really great characters a d the tense moments that resulted, I also loved the theological debate. I am really intrigued by the contrast of Sam's and Dean's views. 

Speculation would probably seem silly given that everyone else is effectively a decade down the road from this episode. 😆 However, I do like the angel/demon dichotomy and find the similarities interesting as well. 

[Aeryn13]

12 minutes ago, The Companion said:

This was such a great episode. Beyond bringing back really great characters a d the tense moments that resulted, I also loved the theological debate. I am really intrigued by the contrast of Sam's and Dean's views. 

Speculation would probably seem silly given that everyone else is effectively a decade down the road from this episode. 😆 However, I do like the angel/demon dichotomy and find the similarities interesting as well. 

As someone a decade down the road, all I will say is that where you are currently is IMO the halcyon days of the show so enjoy them to the fullest while they last.