S05.E12: Off With His Head!

[TwirlyGirly]

Olivia and Ethan realize their marriage has reached an impasse due to differences in their values; Kim and Barry find it difficult to peacefully co-parent; Barry and Isaac visit Micah in LA and hope Ethan will join them despite his troubled marriage. 

Air date: 11/23/23

Edited November 24, 2023 by TwirlyGirly
Added air date

[TwirlyGirly]

I find it very interesting at the beginning of this episode, in Kim's TH, she makes a big deal out of how she managed the household and was solely responsible for caring for and raising the Plath children for 25 years, with no praise or gratitude expressed by Barry. 

And now she's upset that since the separation/divorce has forced Barry into the role of caring for and raising the younger kids on the days he has custody, "... [Barry] steps up and does a little bit and he gets all the praise and all the credit."

What Kim is conveniently forgetting is she and Barry voluntarily chose to follow a Protestant denomination in which wives are subservient to their husband. He is the head of the household and responsible for supporting the family and completing the "man chores," while wives are expected to be responsible for managing the household and caring for and raising the children. 

During those 25 years Kim performed the duties assigned to her by the precepts of their religion, how often did she praise Barry and give him credit for fulfilling the obligations to the family their beliefs required of him? 

Edited November 24, 2023 by TwirlyGirly
Word change

[Salacious Kitty]

It was an exceptionally rainy winter in LA. I wonder when the Malibu scenes were actually filmed?

eta I wouldn't be shocked to find out they filmed in April or May. However, editors keep showing snow on the ground in MN. 

Edited November 24, 2023 by Salacious Kitty

[MrsBillyBob]

What Kim is conveniently forgetting is she is a lazy slob and Lydia did all the work including homeschooling her kids.

By the way I must vent:  She disgusted me with the airplane.  Who would make the unilateral and dangerous decision to get the kid a plane without consulting the kid’s dad.  A smug narcissist who thinks she will win favor with the kid, and take a shot at Barry.  She disgusts me.

[Meow Mix]

Kim just loves to play the martyr about all the work she did with no appreciation.  I doubt either she or Barry ever expressed appreciation to each other. And handing her kids some worksheets is not educating them.  At least Barry talks to them and doesn't just issue orders.  Though I think a lot of Barry's acceptance of things like Moriah's tattoos is just to get one over on Kim.  Just as her having a Christmas tree was to get one over on Barry.  These two need to get over themselves and think of their kids (particularly the minors still stuck at home). And I like the callback to Barry's smug attitudes about California.  He's still that smug.

I thought Olivia handled the discussion with Ethan pretty well.  She was not telling him he had to change his beliefs, she was telling him that she couldn't change hers and that was why they had no future together.  He tried everything to deflect.  First he said the usual this is such BS.  She ignored that and went on.  Then he tried to say he didn't mean what he said and she stated that she knew he had said his truth.  Then he tried to say there were only three things on his my way or the highway list.  She has chosen the highway and even the I-10 through LA at rush hour would be more pleasant than trying to keep this marriage going.  I did wonder what Ethan hoped to accomplish when he told Olivia that Micah didn't respect their marriage.  Was he just trying to hurt her or did he think she would suddenly parrot all his beliefs because Micah was mad.  

I got a good laugh out of Micah telling the camera that he was glad Ethan put on his big boy pants and told Olivia he was going to California.  Then the very next scene is Ethan explaining that he never told Olivia his plans until he was walking out the door.  When she just said that he should go, he seemed to want a fight, so called from the airport to try to get her to beg him to come back.  When she didn't he finally booked another flight.  That's some real manly stuff right there. And why did Micah (or actually the producers) need to rent a place in Malibu instead of them going to Micah's apartment?  Was it just too small or is he hiding something?

While I hate ambushing in general, it serves Ethan right that Micah is doing that.  Ethan has sprung enough stuff on Olivia so he should see what it feels like to be put in an uncomfortable situation. And on the subject of the previews does anyone really want to see Kim schmooping around with her mush mouth Romeo?  I know I don't

[Fouts]

Excellent thoughts about the plane purchase, Pinenut.  Methinks Kim also saw the plane purchase as:

1.  A way to introduce Ken into the show in a way that seemed like he was a stranger (when most of us recognize that Kim had likely been with Ken for a while already and was the basis of her blowing up her marriage.)

2.  A way to curry favor with Isaac so she could feel better about herself hanging around Ken in front of him.  

BTW, way to go, Kim, screwing with your minor child's head by chirping if it weren't for him, you'd have not met Ken in the first place.  Basically, Kim let Isaac know that if it weren't for him, his parents' divorce might not be progressing and his family continue imploding.  Then Kim added on the head-screwing suggestion that they should double date.  Seriously messed up parenting there.  

[Back Atcha]

22 hours ago, Meow Mix said:

And why did Micah (or actually the producers) need to rent a place in Malibu instead of them going to Micah's apartment?  Was it just too small or is he hiding something?

He may have said it was too small; he did say it was not in a good area.  He knew his father had negative feelings about California in general.  I like the idea that he (Production) let Barry see the nicer side of L.A.

 

22 hours ago, Meow Mix said:

And on the subject of the previews does anyone really want to see Kim schmooping around with her mush mouth Romeo? 

Love the "schmooping."  If Romeo's personality matches his "mush mouth," Kim will be in heaven...pushing him around and sucking the life and whatever money  he might have out of him.  Why aren't we talking about Kim's fabulous new transformation?  A woman in love...schmooping around in too-tight tops and SHORTS.  She obviously considers herself SELF-IMPROVED! 

[Back Atcha]

On 11/24/2023 at 11:14 AM, TwirlyGirly said:

What Kim is conveniently forgetting is she and Barry voluntarily chose to follow a Protestant denomination in which wives are subservient to their husband. He is the head of the household and responsible for supporting the family and completing the "man chores," while wives are expected to be responsible for managing the household and caring for and raising the children.

"Barry has worked a lot over the last few decades. According to Distractify, he is a transportation planner with a private firm. The Welcome to Plathville star has held the same job for over 25 years and has poured his life into providing for his family. Barry has also worked at his 55-acre farm, where he raised his kids away from the modern toxic culture and technology."    I've always wondered how FAR Barry worked from home, but couldn't find that info on the 'net.

[Meow Mix]

1 hour ago, Fouts said:

BTW, way to go, Kim, screwing with your minor child's head by chirping if it weren't for him, you'd have not met Ken in the first place.  Basically, Kim let Isaac know that if it weren't for him, his parents' divorce might not be progressing and his family continue imploding.  Then Kim added on the head-screwing suggestion that they should double date.  Seriously messed up parenting there.  

This whole paragraph is just horrifying.  I hope the kids sue Kim one day to get their therapy bills paid.  She is beyond awful.

[Salacious Kitty]

7 hours ago, Back Atcha said:

"Barry has worked a lot over the last few decades. According to Distractify, he is a transportation planner with a private firm. The Welcome to Plathville star has held the same job for over 25 years and has poured his life into providing for his family. Barry has also worked at his 55-acre farm, where he raised his kids away from the modern toxic culture and technology."    I've always wondered how FAR Barry worked from home, but couldn't find that info on the 'net.

IIRC, Barry works in Tallahassee and commutes from Cairo. Maybe he works closer to home now?

[Lisa418722]

11 hours ago, Salacious Kitty said:

IIRC, Barry works in Tallahassee and commutes from Cairo. Maybe he works closer to home now?

From looking online, Cairo to Tallahassee is only 33.7 miles.  Yes, that's an estimate, not the exact mileage.  I'm sure in that area of Georgia, a lot of people drive into Florida for work.  

Edited November 27, 2023 by Lisa418722

[TwirlyGirly]

If I could talk to Ethan about his marriage to Olivia, first I would tell him regardless of your age when you marry, both you and your spouse are going to change throughout your lives.

Everyone does: married or single.

Our relationships with others changes us.
Our exposure to new ideas and new things changes us.
Life events change us.

We're not the same person at 30 than we were at 20, the same person at 40 than we were at 30, and so on.

While it's generally true the most dramatic changes occur between the ages of 20 and 30, there are many events that can occur in the lives of people after age 30 that can cause a profound shift in who they are.

It's not that changes in who we are is always responsible for destroying a marriage; it's how we deal with them - or don't - that has the most profound effect on marriage (and potentially other relationships in our lives).

Ethan appears to be more closely tied to his religious roots than Olivia is.

Yet he seems to have forgotten Gen 2:24 (KJV)

"Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh."

I would not describe myself as religious, but there are a few "gems" in the Bible I think are really good advice - and that is one of them, IMHO. 

For those of us who watch other reality series, such as any in the 90 Day Fiance franchise, how many times have we seen relationships fall apart when either one or both of the fiancés (or spouses, if their journey is followed after they marry) have allowed family members to influence their relationship?

Many.

When you marry, making your spouse and your marriage a priority over your family is very important - if you want to have a strong marriage. 

Insofar as the two issues Ethan and Olivia discussed vis-à-vis children: Ethan wants to raise them to love their country and with a strong religious background, and Olivia is seemingly not in agreement. It may seem as if there's no way for them to meet in the middle, but there is!

Regarding teaching their children to love their country:

I was born with a serious physical disability, and there are some countries in which my life would have been easier had I been born there instead of the US. 

Canada is one of them; Canada has universal health care and qualification to receive other services for people with disabilities is not based on income. Here I'm caught in the middle as there are services I desperately need, but can't afford, and because my income exceeds Medicaid Income guidelines I don't qualify to receive those services free or at a reduced cost.

On the other hand, there are countries in which children born with serious disabilities are hidden away and don't receive the medical care, services, or education that might allow them to work and live independently as adults. 

So, you can teach your children to love their country while also educating them about issues in its past where serious mistakes were made and how they were — or are being — rectified, and also talk to them about current issues being faced. 

It's important for kids to learn that while individuals, groups, and entire countries make mistakes, they can also acknowledge those mistakes and work to correct them. 

Insofar as raising them with a strong religious background, that's also possible. There are many Protestant denominations, and most are not as hardline in their beliefs as whichever denomination the Plaths, and Olivia's family, followed. 

I was raised in the Congregational church. The Congregational Church emphasizes what Jesus taught: being kind to others, aiding the sick and the poor, not judging others or being a hypocrite, etc. The reverend in the church I attended growing up was a big fan of Matthew 7:1-5 , and he worked mention of it into many of his sermons..

I doubt Olivia would have any issues with the Congregational Church. Ethan would be making a compromise, but I'll bet if he gave a Congregational Church a chance, he'd realize what they teach is much closer to what Jesus preached than whatever church the Plaths attended.  

There are lots of Congregational Churches throughout Minnesota. 

I like both Ethan and Olivia, and it's obvious to me they love each other. I think a big part of their issue is their religious upbringing taught them everything is black or white, wrong or right. So finding a middle ground — or even thinking "Maybe there's a middle ground solution here" — is really difficult for them. 
 

[Back Atcha]

17 hours ago, TwirlyGirly said:

I like both Ethan and Olivia, and it's obvious to me they love each other. I think a big part of their issue is their religious upbringing taught them everything is black or white, wrong or right. So finding a middle ground — or even thinking "Maybe there's a middle ground solution here" — is really difficult for them. 

Another solution, though probably impossible, is to help Ethan open his mind.  He knows what he knows...which is so little!  I thought the various trips/experiences opened his mind to other places and ideas...California, Europe?  I guess not.  I doubt if Olivia still considers everything (religiously) is black/white wrong/right.  Ethan has not learned to listen and think critically. Or just listen! His mind is closed; I don't see him evolving at all.  I'm in my 80s and have seen many of those close-minded people (mostly men) lose everything...wife/kids because of hard-headedness (even cruelty) and "my way or the highway."  Some years later they meet some sweet young or not-so-young thing who gets the benefit of the men's loneliness--and actually considering maybe there's a better way.

[Shelbie]

I was exceptionally irritated by Moriah this episode. She behaves like a 14 year old very impressed by how deep she thinks she is.

I think she is shocked that Ethan is insisting on calling her on her lies about Olivia and good for him for saying flat out she was wrong about everything.

Don’t care about Kim and her new love.

[TwirlyGirly]

3 hours ago, Back Atcha said:

I doubt if Olivia still considers everything (religiously) is black/white wrong/right.

I think Olivia considers religion itself "wrong", based on her family's and the Plath children's religious upbringing, and would prefer her children not be exposed to religion at all.

I could be wrong, but I thought that's what she either said or implied when she was talking about the differences between how she wanted to raise their children versus how Ethan wanted to. 

Which is why I suggested the Congregational Church, because it teaches what I think they would both agree are the values they want to instill in their children, without using fear, threats of Hell, and judgements. 

Ethan said something that concerned me, about (IIRC) not wanting it to be a "liberal" church. I wish I had the opportunity to get him to explain precisely what he meant by that (which I'll bet he'd have a hard time doing. I think in his mind "liberal" = "wrong/bad" but I doubt he can explain exactly what constitutes "liberal" and why all of it is "wrong/bad". His religious upbringing probably didn't break it down and he's never had to give it much thought, so a conversation in which someone could ask him very specific questions might be very revealing - especially to him).

[Salacious Kitty]

I thought they did attend a "liberal" church early in their marriage. Ethan seemed to enjoy it then. 

I wonder what happened with him to revert back to childhood?

[Meow Mix]

4 hours ago, Back Atcha said:

Another solution, though probably impossible, is to help Ethan open his mind.  He knows what he knows...which is so little!  I thought the various trips/experiences opened his mind to other places and ideas...California, Europe?  I guess not.  I doubt if Olivia still considers everything (religiously) is black/white wrong/right.  Ethan has not learned to listen and think critically. Or just listen! His mind is closed; I don't see him evolving at all.  I'm in my 80s and have seen many of those close-minded people (mostly men) lose everything...wife/kids because of hard-headedness (even cruelty) and "my way or the highway."  Some years later they meet some sweet young or not-so-young thing who gets the benefit of the men's loneliness--and actually considering maybe there's a better way.

First of all, a true sign of intelligence is knowing what you don't know, and that is not Ethan.  For example, he won't acknowledge that he has trouble with reading, it's the font of the menu and the lack of pictures that is the problem.  As far as traveling, the Duggars and Bateses have traveled a lot of places and it has had no impact on most of them, so I'm not surprised that it just rolled off Ethan's back.

46 minutes ago, TwirlyGirly said:

Which is why I suggested the Congregational Church, because it teaches what I think they would both agree are the values they want to instill in their children, without using fear, threats of Hell, and judgements. 

Ethan said something that concerned me, about (IIRC) not wanting it to be a "liberal" church. I wish I had the opportunity to get him to explain precisely what he meant by that (which I'll bet he'd have a hard time doing. I think in his mind "liberal" = "wrong/bad" but I doubt he can explain exactly what constitutes "liberal" and why all of it is "wrong/bad". His religious upbringing probably didn't break it down and he's never had to give it much thought, so a conversation in which someone could ask him very specific questions might be very revealing - especially to him).

Sadly, Ethan would consider the Congregational Church a liberal church.  He would probably consider a lot of mainstream Baptist churches too liberal for him.  I suspect as he has regressed IFB is the way to go for him.  I do hope Olivia can gain an understanding that not all religion is bad, but that is going to take time and experiencing religious people who aren't hateful and authoritarian like the Plaths.

[Lisa418722]

10 hours ago, Salacious Kitty said:

I thought they did attend a "liberal" church early in their marriage. Ethan seemed to enjoy it then. 

I wonder what happened with him to revert back to childhood?

I think it was Kim and Barry's separation/divorce. Ethan enjoyed new experiences, like drinking a Coke, drinking alcohol, traveling, etc. He was OK with a more liberal church at that time. But when Kim and Barry announced their separation it seems to me that Ethan now wants to go back to how things were when he was a kid, but he doesn't realize life does change, people grow up and move forward.  

[Back Atcha]

14 hours ago, Meow Mix said:

  I do hope Olivia can gain an understanding that not all religion is bad, but that is going to take time and experiencing religious people who aren't hateful and authoritarian like the Plaths.

I haven't had the feeling that Olivia thinks "all religion is bad."  Perhaps she's just not interested in "religion" at this time--or maybe she is.  I hope there's a way for Olivia to go to college full-time--devote her life to that for awhile.  For someone who's intellegent, but whose formal education was so limited, it could be a life-changing experience.  Maybe there's a benefactor who would fund her for four-plus years so she could "give back" in some way.

[JayDub1987]

On 11/29/2023 at 7:37 PM, TwirlyGirly said:

I wish I had the opportunity to get him to explain precisely what he meant by that

I guess I can venture a guess here, but it’s based on people I know who are/were very fundamentalist. 
 

Many of them consider any church that doesn’t openly rail against homosexuality in every sermon “liberal.” With those people, churches don’t even have to condone alternative lifestyles, but if they don’t get a comment about “them gays” in every sermon, the church is liberal. Also, there seems to be a consensus that if a church doesn’t declare that a single drink of alcohol will send you into the fiery pits of hell, they’re liberal. There’s more, but I’ll digress. 

I also interpret Ethan’s “I’ll instill patriotism in my kids and Olivia isn’t patriotic” as “my kids will be conservative, and Olivia isn’t voting Republican right now.”

Yes, I’m assuming Ethan’s stance, but I’m basing my assumptions on what I know of fundamentalists. 

Edited December 1, 2023 by JayDub1987

[Dibs]

There's absolutely nothing wrong with Ethan being very conservative and not wanting to change or compromise on his values and beliefs.  In most people, those are firmly fixed by adulthood; they don't turn into completely different people.  Yes, everyone changes a little with age, but what Olivia's done amounts to a bait-and-switch where marriage and potential parenthood is concerned.  They need to be on the same page to raise kids, and they're not and never will be.  Both simply need to admit this and move on and stop waiting for the other to make the call (Olivia is doing this just as Ethan is; not sure why Olivia gets a pass on everything).  They're simply incompatible.  Not necessary to blame either.

Edited December 1, 2023 by Dibs

[Pattycake2]

I am appalled.  A marriage comes first.  Not standing up for your wife when your younger, uneducated, ill experienced siblings make comments about your marriage is unacceptable.  Ethan will never take the braces off his brain. He should go back to Cairo where he’ll be in the world,but never of the world.  There are certainly marriages where the spouses have different religions, political affiliations, etc., but they still work by both spouses speaking to their children about their own viewpoints.

Edited December 4, 2023 by Pattycake2