Masters Of The Air - General Discussion

[BetterButter]

 

[Constant Viewer]

I'm glad this finally getting made. I got to meet the author of the book several years ago at a teacher's institute at the WWII museum in New Orleans.

[pasdetrois]

My dad's B-17 unit is the primary one the book and this series are based on. Bombing missions out of Thorpe-Abbots in England and horrific loss of life. The American heroism was astounding. My dad climbed into a B-17 in England and faced death 35 times (35 missions = "Lucky Bastards Club")

I met the book author at a bomb group reunion 10 years ago, and at that time he expected Spielberg/Hanks to produce a quality major motion picture. Over the years the concept devolved into a series with lots of computer-generated graphics. I hope they do it justice. An earlier production "12 O'Clock High" merged B-17 stories from multiple bomb groups into one script.

Edited November 13, 2023 by pasdetrois

[Tom Holmberg]

Although my father served in a B-24 squadron (he always thought the B-17 got all the attention- his theory being that the B-17 bases were closer to London), the book was very good and based on "Band of Brothers", this will probably be as good.

[pasdetrois]

*Waves at Tom Holmberg." Yes, we cannot forget all the brave men who rose to the challenge - fighters and their escorts ("little friends"), British Lancasters, and of course the ground crews who worked tirelessly to keep these warbirds in the air.

[BetterButter]

 

[Raja]

On 11/13/2023 at 9:02 AM, pasdetrois said:

I met the book author at a bomb group reunion 10 years ago, and at that time he expected Spielberg/Hanks to produce a quality major motion picture. Over the years the concept devolved into a series with lots of computer-generated graphics. I hope they do it justice. An earlier production "12 O'Clock High" merged B-17 stories from multiple bomb groups into one script.

For the wiki searches "12 O'Clock High" is the TV series. "Twelve O'Clock High" is the 1949 movie.

Historians looking at the teaser and then the second trailer were commenting on the Tuskegee Airmen and the 332nd Fighter Group out of Italy being so prominent as the only fighter pilots seen. Lloyd Haynes, Mr Dixon of Room 222 showed up on 12 O'Clock High as an escort commander when the fictional 918th Bombardment Group turned south on shuttle bomb missions. The second trailer makes it plain to see that the P.O.W. experiences will be a big part of the series thus side stepping US  segregation and the "woke" accusations that came with the teaser trailer. 

So essentially the 332nd scenes are there for us to meet the future P.O.W.  for when the characters make it to the stalag.

Edited December 25, 2023 by Raja

[pasdetrois]

I think the forum ate my post, so repeating: I notice the trailers show the "Square D" on the B-17 wings. It is the Bloody 100th bomb group's insignia. I got a tiny tattoo when my dad passed away.

[BetterButter]

 

[aghst]

I thought this was Band of Brothers in the Pacific but it’s still in Europe?

[pasdetrois]

The series is based on one American bomb group (100th Bomb Wing) that flew missions out of southern England (Norfolk). It was called The Bloody 100th due to unusual loss of planes and crews. That was due in part to an early history of flying low-altitude, daylight bombing missions to Germany, which made the B-17s vulnerable to flack and German fighters. They switched to night missions but still sustained many losses. Most of their missions were to Germany, but they also targeted other European countries occupied by the Nazis.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/100th_Bomb_Group_Memorial_Museum

 

 

Edited January 15 by pasdetrois

[Raja]

5 hours ago, aghst said:

I thought this was Band of Brothers in the Pacific but it’s still in Europe?

The Pacific a decade ago following  a few separate Marines that ultimately tied to the First Marine Division but not all in one small company like the Band of Brothers was the analogous show. Masters of the Air is mainly the daylight bombing over Germany story. Maybe in another 10 years someone will come with the story of the carrier air war or the island based tactical air war against Japanese forces. Or some other focus from the total war

Edited January 11 by Raja

[BetterButter]

 

[go4luca]

I'm very much looking forward to this series and hope they do it right.  My Dad was a B17 pilot (96th bomb group) in the Mighty 8th.  He was stationed at Snetterton Heath working with the Royal Air Force.  He was also his squadron's commander & awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross.  He's gone now, but I'm very proud of my old man.

 

[aghst]

Watched both episodes back to back.

So far don't find the lead characters too engaging.

The American guys are pretty arrogant in England despite not having much combat experience.

The narration explains that US chose precision day time bombing because they had a piece of equipment that let them choose specific targets.

The first mission was a disaster and they were unprepared.  I guess the arc will be how these men rose to the challenge, didn't flinch in the face of tragic losses at first, how some of the most heroic were unsung and how they came from all across the nation to carry out these sacred missions.

The second mission was a smashing success and they all risked their lives to escort that one damaged bomber back to base, flying slower and risking attacks from German fighters.

It's fascinating about how they operate these antiquated planes, with the gun nest being -50 degrees.  The B-17 Fortress planes were already rickety before they flew the first mission but these airmen made it work with the strategy of protecting each other and of course a lot of American moxie.

How can that one navigator Crosby be an airman if he frequently gets airsick, yet he wants to keep flying.  But the conditions on those planes are a far cry from modern airliners so it's more than an individual just being more prone to motion sickness.

They haven't shown why these men are so driven by the mission other than few comments about beating the Nazis.  For instance, why would Crosby pass up the chance to work on the ground rather than being hands on in conditions that are challenging to him?

The opening credit sequence show some black airmen.  I wouldn't expect too much exposition of race relations but they probably operate as separate units.

 

Edited January 26 by aghst

[Netfoot]

2 hours ago, aghst said:

Watched both episodes back to back.

Me too.

And thank goodness the yanks showed up to win WW-II in Europe!

I've been waiting for this show since it was first hinted at, years ago. So, I'm so glad to be watching it at last. I'm a little disappointed at some minor errors that I've spotted. And I can't think why they happened, given how easy it would have been to avoid them. 

For example, early in Episode #2, as our guys are talking outdoors, an aircraft plunges to earth and explodes on contact, out on the horizon. The explanation we are given that a training flight was underway, the aircraft was pitched up too far at too low a speed, stalling the airframe, which plunged to earth. And that could easily happen. Except that a stalled aircraft would not be pulling a long trail of smoke as it plunged earthwards. Stalling an aircraft does not cause it to burst into flames! If they wanted to retain the smoky plunge to earth, why not give a different (believable) explanation for the crash? In WW-II Britain I'm sure there would have been more than a few to choose from!

Later in the same episode, we are in the cockpit of an aircraft, proceeding towards it's target when someone warns of attacking "Ju-88's". The Junkers Ju 88 Schnellbomber was designed as a titular fast bomber but ended up very much a multi-role platform. One of the roles it found itself filling was Bomber Destroyer. So an attack on Allied bombers by Ju-88 aircraft would be reasonable. However, the next moment the attacking aircraft are shown to feature twin vertical stabilizers, similar to the Messerschmitt Bf 110 Zerstörer, and nothing like the Ju-88 at all. I can think of no reason why they claimed the attacking aircraft were of one type and then depict another, quite different aircraft.

Anyway, I am hoping that the remaining episodes will have less airmen complementing each other on how nice their hair smells and more depiction of the actual details of fighting a war when it's 30 below at angels 20.

(I once read a book that opened with that line: "It was thirty below at angels twenty." I can't remember what the book was called...)

ETA: "Flight of the Intruder" by Stephen Coonts. Thanks ChatGPT!

Edited January 26 by Netfoot

[Raja]

6 hours ago, aghst said:

The opening credit sequence show some black airmen.  I wouldn't expect too much exposition of race relations but they probably operate as separate units.

The 332nd Fighter Group of the 12th and 15th USAAF in Italy defiantly operates as separate unit from the 8th USAAF bombers based in the UK. Historians going scene by scene on the promotional trailer say they have a historically accurate reason for them to be included in the miniseries.

[Raja]

13 hours ago, Netfoot said:

Later in the same episode, we are in the cockpit of an aircraft, proceeding towards it's target when someone warns of attacking "Ju-88's". The Junkers Ju 88 Schnellbomber was designed as a titular fast bomber but ended up very much a multi-role platform. One of the roles it found itself filling was Bomber Destroyer. So an attack on Allied bombers by Ju-88 aircraft would be reasonable. However, the next moment the attacking aircraft are shown to feature twin vertical stabilizers, similar to the Messerschmitt Bf 110 Zerstörer, and nothing like the Ju-88 at all. I can think of no reason why they claimed the attacking aircraft were of one type and then depict another, quite different aircraft.

Of course that demands perfection from the flight crew. There are many stories from the ground forces that combat veterans would identify artillery coming at them as being from  88's no matter what it was and all tanks being called Tiger's.  However using CGI and not visually modifying any available aircraft maybe the effects unit just missed it as did the editors.

I do remember the story of a P-38 ace, among the most unique looking aircraft in the war, being attacked by a friendly fighter which he was able to turn around. It is credited for an Elmore Leonard character whose back story included such an incident to be that ordinary guy that the bad guys bit into not expecting someone more ruthless than them coming back at them.

[pasdetrois]

My siblings and I enjoyed the first two episodes. I even wept a little, and I remembered the guys who did not live long enough to see this series make it to air.

Harry Crosby (the vomiting navigator) was a real guy who wrote the book "A Wing and a Prayer."

Lemmons, the ground crew member who lit up the oil on the tarmac, was also a real guy and his daughter is involved in today's Bloody 100th memorial group.

Having a B-17 practically on top of another B-17 is reminiscent of the real-life Piggyback Flight, where two got stuck together.

As did many guys, my dad performed multiple roles. He was primarily a navigator and he also was bombadier, with a little flight engineering thrown in. He was certified in the Norden bomb sight. Episode 2 showed that the bombadier had flight control of the aircraft during the bombing. My dad joked it was the closest he got to being a pilot. When they landed after a mission the military intelligence guys would race to the aircraft, grab the sight, and run back to develop the images in secret in order to verify whether the bombs had hit the targets and how much damage had been done. His buddy was 5' 6" and spent most of the missions crammed into the ball turret in the plane's belly. Joked about peeing ice cubes - eventually the flight suits were heated, but not at first.

I agree there's too much footage of the guys fightin' and drinkin' and carrying on. Also, I think that Austin Butler forgot to get rid of his Elvis accent. Perhaps this is to appeal to an audience younger than I am. But I like that they are trying to portray the mission environment, from take-off to "counting them in."

There are only seven or eight B-17s today that are airworthy, but I think they are grounded due to the deaths that occurred when two different planes were operating tourist flights and crashed. I rode an old B-17 about 10 years ago and checked it off my bucket list.

Looking forward to the next episode.

Edited January 29 by pasdetrois

[Zaffy]

The production looks great. The series not, so far.
I think the problem is with the characters.. I don't know if it is the acting or the writing or both, but I find most of them annoying, to say the least.
It also feels like these people behave like if they are in the 21st century and not in the 1940s.
In any case, it always amazes me how young these people where, kids!

I am not going to compare with Band of Brothers, everything was perfect with BOB, cast, acting, writing, directing, music. 

[pasdetrois]

Quote

In any case, it always amazes me how young these people where, kids!

My dad was considered old at 22. They called him the Old Man.

[Raja]

44 minutes ago, Zaffy said:

I am not going to compare with Band of Brothers, everything was perfect with BOB, cast, acting, writing, directing, music.

Character wise following an airborne infantry company gave advantages that few other types of units in the WWII US Military could match. So for the miniseries we could see most of the brothers from training until the end of the war. Men were even wounded and came back to Easy Company where as regular infantrymen would have been put in the replacement pool and assigned out to the next division, other than the 101st, 82nd or 17th Airborne Divisions, that needed a replacement. So as a story training and two episodes to their major battles and the end of the war and the going home episode made for  easy narratives.

In comparison to three separate Marines of The Pacific or in this case a bomber group with more of the Tuskegee Airmen's fighter group to come later, taking horrible casualties where we didn't have the get to know them as a unit episode.

[Netfoot]

21 minutes ago, pasdetrois said:

My dad was considered old at 22. They called him the Old Man.

My uncle, now passed, defended the free world in the cockpit of a P-51D over Europe in WW-II. He was 18 years old.

[IvySpice]

54 minutes ago, Zaffy said:

The production looks great. The series not, so far.
I think the problem is with the characters. I don't know if it is the acting or the writing or both

Agreed. The main character is a teetotaling, self-sacrificing angel with no apparent damage from being an alcoholic gambling addict's son? Another part of the problem, for me, is casting someone who looks like Austin Butler in the lead. I get that Hollywood productions are going to feature better-looking guys than actual units of draftees, but he's wrecking my suspension of disbelief. All I can see when he's on screen is a movie star. They've cast Cary Grant in a role meant for Jimmy Stewart.

That said, the planes etc. are amazing to watch. I coincidentally saw one of the best-preserved B-17s in the world at the Palm Springs Air Museum just last week. I saw "Memphis Belle" like 10 times in my teens, but I did not appreciate the scale of the plane until I was standing underneath it. Gigantic propellers aside, it does not look like 80-year-old technology.

[hatchetgirl]

Well this is a terrible stinker. It's beautiful and the planes are really awesome, but the writing and dialogue, acting and characters are just so very very bad. Did a group of 8th graders get together and write dialog with the help of chatgpt? My hubby kept asking me why Val Kilmer's lesser known brother, Sal Kilmer (Austin Butler) is in the show and why he looks so young.

[Netfoot]

9 hours ago, hatchetgirl said:

It's beautiful and the planes are really awesome, but the writing and dialogue, acting and characters are just so very very bad.

I agree. The production is amazing. For instance, I was fascinated by the B-17 startup sequence depicted at one point. The sort of detail that shows how highly trained those young men were. 

I'd go so far as to say that the only thing wrong with the show is all the actors and all their dialogue. I mean it comes across as almost deliberate. Like they were out to create a farce. I've waited long for this show and have been looking forward to it a great deal. I will be very disappointed if it continues in this vein.

[Cornhusker12]

Hmmm I'm going to watch it all, but I'm still not sure how much I like it after two episodes. I think it's already a little repetitive, which makes sense considering the subject matter, but I'm curious how that will play over 9 episodes.

I think a big component that is missing is the historical context that BoB and The Pacific both had at the beginning of each episode. I'm a fairly decent amateur WW2 buff (for my generation anyway - I'm 34), so I knew the gist going in, but my wife kept being curious where/when things were happening, and what the stakes were at that time of the war, things like that. I think that perspective would've helped some of the issues, such as some bland characterizations.

I was nervous about Austin Butler, luckily he hasn't bugged me but he also just doesn't really bring anything to the table in the role of Buck. Callum Turner on the other hand (Bucky), is much better in my opinion, but I still don't really get a sense of why Buck and Bucky share a bond. To compare it to BoB, it seems like their relationship should be somewhat similar to Winters/Nixon (the responsible boy scout and the cynical drunk with a heart of gold) but we haven't quite gotten that dynamic.

One of the things that kept The Pacific from hitting as hard as BoB was the dialogue and characterizations that seemed very romanticized and almost soapy. So far I think MotA is working better because we're focusing on one group of guys, but I still feel a little bit of that soapiness too much. Many of the characters in The Pacific (and possibly MotA as well) seemed like modern actors reciting borderline-corny lines on a movie set. The characters in Band of Brothers seemed like they were channeling the real people they were portraying.

Now for the good - The flying sequences are incredible. I'm usually drawn more toward ground war stories because it's just easier to put myself in their shoes and follow the action, but this show is doing an amazing job at recreating the feeling of being in these planes. I can't claim to know the ins and outs like a historian, but the attention to detail the show seems to have is definitely pulling me into those scenes. I feel the cramped space, I feel the freezing cold, I feel the rickety plane shaking, and it helps the show create that camaraderie for the characters too. When it goes from a mission to an interrogation to blowing off steam at the bar while they wait to do it all over again, you feel how those guys are experiencing something totally life-altering together as a group.

Anyway, I'm excited to see where it goes! I am under no illusion that it'll be as good as Band Of Brothers, but it's definitely worth a watch for me and it will be a good thing for TV in general for a show like this to be good and succeed, so I'm definitely rooting for it to keep building into something special.

[mopar addict]

It would be hard to show the story without having storylines cut off as crew were killed. The devastation to their numbers demands it to drive the point home. Their war was far more dangerous than any other portion of the war up until the final months of the pacific for the Marines.

[IvySpice]

On 1/28/2024 at 4:36 AM, Netfoot said:

the only thing wrong with the show is all the actors and all their dialogue.

I see a bright spot in the character of Crosby and the actor. He and Barry Keoghan are the only characters I don't have to work to distinguish from the others. You have all these generic good-looking actor types; throw in the oxygen masks, and I'm lost. They're also cutting between the different planes all the time. It would help if there were some kind of banner on the screen: "Meanwhile, back at the Memphis Belle...."

[pasdetrois]

26 minutes ago, IvySpice said:

They're also cutting between the different planes all the time.

This is true. However the reality was one crew didn't always fly in the same plane. Planes were damaged or malfunctioning and needed maintenance and were taken out of service abruptly. One mechanic told me that the turnover was so great, and the need for large numbers of planes for big missions so high, that they would have to fly planes whose nose art was incomplete.

Quote

I see a bright spot in the character of Crosby and the actor. He and Barry Keoghan are the only characters I don't have to work to distinguish from the others.

I noticed Koeghan when watching "Saltburn" and went back and watched "The Killing of a Sacred Deer." He's good in this as is Anthony Boyle as Crosby.

Trivia: Tom Hanks visited Thorpe Abbots about seven years ago during pre-production. He walked around kind of under the radar and asked lots of questions of the volunteers who have preserved the area. The flight tower we see in the series is the real deal.

Edited January 29 by pasdetrois

[Zaffy]

After episode 3, I will say that we definitely have bad casting, bad acting and certainly bad directing. The officer/commander was briefing the men for their "mission-impossible" and I never got to feel any tense, cause there wasn't any. They had people keep repeating how dangerous the mission was so we can finally realize it.

But I think my biggest problem with this show it its subject per se. These are bombers. As much as dangerous and lethal it was to fly behind the enemy lines, I can't really feel anything positive for them,  knowing that they ended up  committing war crimes by bombing innocent civilians (something the Germans did first). Their "job" was nothing like the troops' one.
Sure, war is hell and civilians are always the innocent victims, but we do not talk about collateral damage here. To me the bombers obliterating towns was no different than the Nazi troops burning whole villages and executing thousands of locals.
Imaging if the Band of Brothers soldiers were just murdering innocent German civilians as they were advancing through their country.

So this show looks like a video game where you do not see what are the consequences of the bombings... just pilots trying to advance as many levels as possible.
What happens to all these planes falling down? what happened to the bombs they emptied before trying to land? I read somewhere that there were big distances from where the bombs fell to where they were supposed to fall, like 1000meters away...
 

[aghst]

Well so far they're only going after strategic targets, like U-boat pens to save ships from being sunk in the Atlantic and this one was to knock out factories building parts for the Luftwaffe.

Best laid plans for orchestrating attacks but this division in episode 3 was out on their own and only 11 of 21 survived.

Brutal ratio but the cold reality is that the planners probably expect that only some percentage of the planes will survive the onslaught.

I guess they're trying to show how heroic these men were in the face of dangerous missions where they risked getting killed or captured.  Other than talking about defeating the "krauts" it doesn't show what drives them.

Were these mostly conscripts or did they enlist.  They must have enlisted to go through the training and knowing what their duties would entail, including the risks?

What were their backgrounds?  IIRC, in BoB, a couple of them were college graduates or students when they joined the war effort, so it was interesting to see why they'd risk their lives.

So far in this show they haven't developed the motivations of the characters.

[Cornhusker12]

13 hours ago, aghst said:

Other than talking about defeating the "krauts" it doesn't show what drives them.

Were these mostly conscripts or did they enlist.  They must have enlisted to go through the training and knowing what their duties would entail, including the risks?

What were their backgrounds?  IIRC, in BoB, a couple of them were college graduates or students when they joined the war effort, so it was interesting to see why they'd risk their lives.

So far in this show they haven't developed the motivations of the characters

Yeah that's a great point, it's almost as if there is no context outside of what we're seeing on our screens at that very moment. These guys are heroic pilots because... they're heroic pilots! They're friends because... they're friends! The missions are happening because... they are the missions! It's all important because... it's important!

One thing I find really interesting and kinda harrowing is that this show seems to have made a point to cast some actors who are the actual age of a lot of the soldiers in WW2, AKA late teens and early 20s. The character who is now going to try to escape from Belgium + his buddies looked like children. Most war depictions make the choice to cast guys who all look like full grown men for obvious reasons, but I appreciate that this show is changing that a bit. Just unbelievable how young so many of those guys were in real life.

EDIT: Ironically that actor who plays Quinn is actually 26 haha but man, he looks much younger in the show.

Edited February 6 by Cornhusker12

[Raja]

17 hours ago, aghst said:

Were these mostly conscripts or did they enlist.  They must have enlisted to go through the training and knowing what their duties would entail, including the risks?

While the commanders at the beginning being West Pointers most of the officers would have started as Aviation Cadet's not exactly ROTC but a similar set up to Richard Gere in An Officer and a Gentleman as WWII was already going on. There was a combination of the romantic nature of flight and if I am going to war at least I won't be an infantryman going over the trench into no man's land. Unfortunately for bomber crews before 1944 their mission profile was as probably as close to those massed infantry attacks in WWI that those who fought WWII faced. In the end the Army decided what you would be flying, from gliders supporting the Airborne divisions, the Piper Cubs spotting artillery and other patrol aircraft, the the transports flying supplies, the fighters,  to the bombers.

The gunner's being in the Army Air Corps either as enlistee or pulled up in the draft did volunteer to be gunners with the additional rank and pay. Like   the Band of Brothers getting additional pay for being parachute qualified. The Germans, but not the Japanese, would respect the rank of POWs so that is why the entire aircrew was officers and sergeants. No PFC was up to get shot down and become a prisoner who  could used as laborers  by the Germans who captured them.

If you have seen the movie Drumline there is a scene with each of the band's section going over what made them most important and then we get to the drummers that the movie followed. It is part of unit building that what we do is the most important thing and you are the best. The so called Bomber Mafia, a Fighter mafia emerged after the Vietnam War, had it as their mission to prove that air power, through the bombs dropped would prove that the air services were the most important part of the military in the mission of protecting their nations. They were sure that the bombers would get through and do enough damage to be worth the losses. The problem being the fighters of the day were just too good for them

Edited February 6 by Raja

[pasdetrois]

On 2/5/2024 at 8:13 PM, aghst said:

So far in this show they haven't developed the motivations of the characters.

I don't think the motivational story is complex or mysterious. Young people flock to join the military during perilous times. Always have, probably always will. It was expected for WWII; think of the stories of people who were shamed or felt shamed because they did not or could not go.

In addition, the WWII generation was still suffering from the Depression. For some, the military was an answer to widespread unemployment. WWI was a recent memory and its veterans were the parents of these kids.

 

 

Edited February 7 by pasdetrois

[Raja]

16 hours ago, aghst said:

Were these mostly conscripts or did they enlist.  They must have enlisted to go through the training and knowing what their duties would entail, including the risks?

Just an additional historical point. By the end of 1942 there were no voluntary enlistments. Everybody in every service was a draftee parceled out to the services as the nation needed. Being in the air, like being aboard a submarine  however took a leap of faith to volunteer for that. And aviation cadets were deferred from induction as a draftee and given a flight officers warrant or commissioned as a Lieutenant in the Army Air Forces upon completion of their training.

[pasdetrois]

Exactly my dad's experience - he wanted to fly, pursued it, and received a commission.

[Cornhusker12]

23 hours ago, pasdetrois said:

I don't think the motivational story is complex or mysterious. Young people flock to join the military during perilous times. Always have, probably always will. It was expected for WWII; think of the stories of people who were shamed or felt shamed because they did not or could not go.

In addition, the WWII generation was still suffering from the Depression. For some, the military was an answer to widespread unemployment. WWI was not a distant memory and its veterans were the parents of these kids.

Absolutely true, however I just think the show itself would be more effective to show that in its storytelling rather than expect the audience to fill in the blanks with their own historical knowledge.

BoB obviously did this incredibly well throughout the entire series, and even The Pacific did it pretty well, with Sledge in particular.

Edited February 7 by Cornhusker12

[aghst]

No discussion of ep 4?  Buck or Bucky apparently shot down?  Why didn’t they show the mission?

They had to count the forts returning to base.

Liked the glimpses of London, occupied Belgium and France.

Man in the previously, they show one wing of a bomber being sheared off by one hit.  That would be a sight few humans have witnessed.

Edited February 15 by aghst

[pasdetrois]

I think some posters headed to Reddit while this site was down. And I've been following chats on a FaceBook group of 100th experts.

I wonder if we didn't get mission scenes due to production cost and time.

I noticed one character asking about "B-one-sevens." I've never heard anyone use that term - it's always been "B-seventeens." Maybe some personnel used that term in real life.

[Netfoot]

2 hours ago, pasdetrois said:

I noticed one character asking about "B-one-sevens." I've never heard anyone use that term - it's always been "B-seventeens." Maybe some personnel used that term in real life.

I noticed that as well, and it seemed a jarringly inaccurate / unnatural way to designate the aircraft.

Similarly for other aircraft in service: P-40 , P-47, P-51, B-24, B-25, B-29..... When spoken individual digits are not the norm, as far as I am concerned. Least ways, not until much later, when you get into triple digits. Border case: the  F-100 Super Sabre would be spoken "F-One-Hundred".  But after that, say the F-104 Starfighter would be "F-One-Oh-Four" and not "F-one-hundred-and-four", or even "F-One-Zero-Four". Later, the F-117 Nighthawk would be "F-One-Seventeen" and not "F-One-One-Seven".

But hey! Who am I to argue with Hollywood?

[Raja]

On the other hand there was the Army's squad automatic weapon the B.A.R which sounds weird when called a bar today. Or the APC the M-113, one one three. Perhaps there was those guys who did say one seven. It reminds me of an Adam-12 episode, the introduction of SWAT to America has a reporter asking the Sergeant what is this s.w.a.t. team that you are waiting for to deal with a sniper.

[SeanBug]

I just watched the fifth episode.  I felt kind of not engaged with the characters in the first couple episodes, but I am all in. 

IMO, it differs from BoB because the characters aren't under constant danger, there's some down time at the base. But now that we're seeing the actual bombing runs, and getting to know the characters, I think it's just as good as BoB. It's just different. 

During the bombing runs, I didn't know if I was going to cry or get sick to my stomach.  They did an amazing job making the viewer feel like they were going thru what the crews went thru, seeing those German fighters coming right at you, seeing planes blow up, knowing your friends are gone.   

And the gut punch to the men on the ground knowing only one crew made it back. 

I could understand why Bucky Egan got upset when the others were concerned about bombing a railroad so close to a church. He had just seen what happened during the Blitz when a building in London was destroyed, and a woman was searching for her daughter (I think).  Let's not forget all the civilians who died at the hands of the Germans, let alone the people they murdered in the camps. 

As far as Meatball, my heart melted when Austin Butler danced with him.  He'll be taken care of by the mechanics and the men at the base.  

I love they've included the children who lived nearby and hung out at the base.  

Full disclosure, my father was in the Army Air Corps, he served on Pearl Harbor, after the attack.  I grew up watching WW2 movies and tv shows with him.  I still have the copy of Band of Brothers (book)  gave him, I kept it after he died in 2008. 

[SeanBug]

On 2/15/2024 at 1:02 AM, aghst said:

No discussion of ep 4?  Buck or Bucky apparently shot down?  Why didn’t they show the mission?

They had to count the forts returning to base.

Liked the glimpses of London, occupied Belgium and France.

Man in the previously, they show one wing of a bomber being sheared off by one hit.  That would be a sight few humans have witnessed.

And when the man falling out of the plane hit Cleven's plane's wing.   The whole show is reminding me of the Day of Days episode of BoB, when they were flying over the channel to France and we saw planes blow up, that fireball that went thru an entire plane, etc.  One plane split in two and fell out of the sky.  These are horrors most of us will never live thru, no wonder veterans don't want to talk about what they saw or went thru. 

I saw Austin on Colbert a couple weeks ago, no spoilers since it's well known but Buck Cleven made it thru the war. 

[Zaffy]

Well...I stopped watching because I realized do not really care about the bombers crews (of any WWII participant). Plus, finding most of the acting bad didn't help much either.

[aghst]

You could see that not seeing their colleagues hit hard on them, having to gather their belongings, some maybe having to write letters to wives or relatives.

They expected some amount of attrition with each mission but it's more like devastation when only 1 bomber returns out of the 17 which took off.

The one guy saying he's not going up again, why wasn't that a more common reaction?  Seemed like their strategy of day missions is proving too costly.

In fact, someone posted that in reality, the bombing accuracy of the US day missions was about the same as the RAF night missions.

Wonder which side had greater losses.

[Raja]

On 2/17/2024 at 11:46 AM, aghst said:

You could see that not seeing their colleagues hit hard on them, having to gather their belongings, some maybe having to write letters to wives or relatives.

They expected some amount of attrition with each mission but it's more like devastation when only 1 bomber returns out of the 17 which took off.

The one guy saying he's not going up again, why wasn't that a more common reaction?  Seemed like their strategy of day missions is proving too costly.

In fact, someone posted that in reality, the bombing accuracy of the US day missions was about the same as the RAF night missions.

Wonder which side had greater losses.

After the introduction of long range USAAF fighters in 1944 the loss rates dropped so no more Black weeks with one plane coming back from a raid. Meanwhile the British  Bomber Command's losses remained around the same levels and they ended the war with greater loss rates.

It looks like most of the main characters will be prisoners or dead by the time new Generals are assigned and the turning of the daylight tide occurs 

Edited February 24 by Raja

[anna0852]

Having watched every episode so far, I’ve come to the conclusion that if I’d had to serve in World War II, I would’ve done my best to get onto the Army Air Corp ground crews in the ETO. Seems to be my best chance of actual survival although I’d probably be going home with a lot of psychological torment about watching friends fly off and never return.

[Raja]

26 minutes ago, anna0852 said:

Having watched every episode so far, I’ve come to the conclusion that if I’d had to serve in World War II, I would’ve done my best to get onto the Army Air Corp ground crews in the ETO. Seems to be my best chance of actual survival although I’d probably be going home with a lot of psychological torment about watching friends fly off and never return.

That is precisely why the nation stopped accepting volunteers in late 1942 and put everyone where they were needed in the moment. By 1944 it was seen that the rate of ground combat casualties was underestimated and service troops were involuntarily transferred to the combat units like the tank's assistant driver/machine-gunner in the movie Fury. 

That secondary draft included the USAAF ground crews. There were some Black Army Service Forces who did volunteer for combat units and they were placed in segregated infantry companies inside of the general army combat divisions.

[aghst]

How did men end up in non combat support roles?

If they had specialized skills like they were doctors, they could avoid combat?

So mechanics, maybe people who had logistics knowledge and experience and some others?